Now Playing: NYC Gay Bashing
It doesn’t ring like a Nick Haramis story, which would mean this story of unprovoked gay bashing true, and all the more upsetting. Scene: Sunday night, the day after Valentine’s, New York City’s Union Square, Regal movie theatre. There’s glass shards, a box cutter, blood, and a hospital involved here.
On Sunday evening February 15th, my boyfriend and I attended the Regal Union Square theater on 13th Street and Broadway. While inside, he had placed his head on my shoulder and four boys behind us began calling us ‘faggots’ and ‘homos’ and began forcefully kicking the back of our chairs. We contacted the management twice and they did nothing, and the second time I was speaking of what happened and the manager rolled his eyes and walked off and ignored me while I was talking. After the movie was finished, the homophobic remarks continued and the boys began to physically threaten us and surround us.
We looked for any security, of which none was available. Once outside the theater, we were both assaulted by the four boys with glass bottles, shards of glass, and a box cutter, and taken to the hospital. I had suffered a head contusion and my boyfriend suffered a wrist and head contusion and a facial laceration. The case has been classified as a hate crime by NYPD and all parties concerned believe the movie theater was negligent in handling the situation twice and not providing ample security. Also, it should be noted that the boys were related to an employee of the theatre, and were underaged, therefore they should not have been given tickets/admitted into a rated-R movie.
[Village Voice; Photo via Not For Tourists]
Thats really scary. Ive been to this theatre a bunch of times.
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I go to that theatre all the time. I regularly see rats crawling on the carpeted walls, classy. Any yes it does attract a rough adolecent crowd.
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@sonofmaddy:
Thats funny. It’s nice to see that you find the humor in gay bashing.
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I say we organize a nice loud protest outside that shitty movie theater
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@sonofmaddy: Probably Jonas Brothers: The 3D Concert Experience.
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I read it three times and each time I am reading the same thing so here is my advice. Learn to physically fight back.
They were underage kids whose names the police now have.They have the name of the relative that admitted to letting them in the theatre or if that were not exactly the case they were admitted into an R-rated movie. You complained to management whose response amounted to telling you more or less to grow a pair. You get beat up outside and surely there are several cameras in that area that should have captured it.
And you have not seen an attorney yet? And you live in NYC and this incident happened in NYC? Yes, dear. You have a case. And it sounds pretty good.
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It’s not easy to fight back when your assailants are armed. I’m the first person to criticize gay men who, instead of fighting back, whine, but this situation seems to be entirely different.
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That’s become such a rowdy theatre, for being a nice one in a nice area. I’m glad I’ve been avoiding it, especially now. Raise some hell, management should do better if they want to stay in business and not scare people away.
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@gurlene,
seriousy fight back or do something. just letting things happen to you like that is not normal ANYMORE.
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@sonofmaddy:
Time to grow up, pal. It’s a sincerely ridiculous question that makes light of a serious issue.
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While I’m not prepared to endorse the radical militarism of “TIM in SF,” I agree with him in theory. If we don’t push back, physically, when stuff like this happens then we run the risk of being seen as the “weak faggots” that they targeted for abusive behavior. What they don’t expect is us to fight back and get in their face. Aggressors are always nellies underneath. (And listen, ain’t nothing wrong with nellies! I ain’t being no gender defender!) But my thought is that if we challenge their assumptions, by turning the aggression back against them, it seems to accomplish more than going to an authority figure who it always seems (doesn’t it?) just can’t give a fuck about a couple of fairies getting harassed.
I understand that engaging in this way might be seen by some as counterproductive, that you can’t respond to violence with violence, and that if it’s two against four, the odds are the gays aren’t going to win this one and that the response-violence would be (perhaps) of an escalated nature. But wouldn’t that feel much better than the terrible feeling you get after something like this has happened, that feeling that you just fucking did NOTHING?
While this is a very controversial text, and I am in no way trying to conflate the two issues, there is a very interesting moment in Hannah Arendt’s “Eichmann in Jerusalem” (an account of the Eichmann war crime trials for the aforementioned’s role in the institutionalized mass murder of Jews in the Holocaust) that it seems it of value here. Arendt points out that if the Jews had not allowed themselves to be incorporated into the operation so easily, if they had just resisted and fought back instead of going along in line, organizing into groups which were then boarded on trains, the casualties would have been massively reduced.
I want to be clear that I am not criticizing what this couple did. They reacted in the moment, and what happened to them was awful and shouldn’t have happened on so many levels. But we should use this event—and the countless others that precede it, or are currently happening, or will happen—to think about the way we want to react to these situations in the future.
DO NOT BELIEVE IT WHEN SOCIETY TELLS YOU THAT YOU ARE WEAK. DO NOT BELIEVE IN THEIR STRENGTH!
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Unfortunately, Tim…the anti-gun, anti NRA folks have seen to it that another basic American right, The Right to Bear Arms, has been stripped away from law-abiding American Citizens, while millions of illegal guns, in the possession of criminal types circulate in the streets and back-alleys of our country.
And if, God, forbid, one of those gay guys had been packing a gun and used it to defend themselves, who do you think would now be standing in front of a Justice Of The Peace and explaining himself, while the attacking youths parents would be mounting a lawsuit against the queers for “using more force than was really required”?
I pains me to say this, Tim, but we are now living in a land where the criminals have all the rights, while the victims remained locked behind their bars, gates and burglar alarms and cowering in fear while the criminals freely roam our streets and public establishments looking for trouble as was clearly the case here.
On another thread, I just tried to explain the glaring difference between hate speech and freedom of speech. ChristopherM is a fierce advocate of the right to hate speech, dressed-up as freedom of speech. According to his reasoning, these boys were just exercising their “freedom of speech”. And look what that “freedom” led to? If and when a similar attack is perpetrated on him, and I sincerely hope that never happens, will ChristopherM still be so vocal about protecting hate speech, I wonder? Walk. Mile. Moccasins.
Welcome to 2010 America, coming to a theater near you.
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@HaplessOrphan: While I’m not prepared to endorse the radical militarism of “TIM in SF,” I agree with him in theory.
I call bullshit.
It’s hardly “radical militarism” to carry a gun if you are the type who is prone to be picked on. Hell, it’s your right, even more so in some states than being gay. It’s neither radical nor militaristic.
There is a simple fact you should know: Armed gays don’t get bashed.
Rather than dismissing this as some crazy idea, I invite you to go to a pink pistols meet-up in your area. http://www.pinkpistols.org/ You don’t have to carry a gun or own a gun to go to a meeting, just show up and listen. Do a little research for yourself before you dismiss it out of hand.
New York has a chapter. Ask yourself: if McGillvery-Dummett and his boyfriend were members and were armed, would they have been cut up?
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@Charles J. Mueller: And if, God, forbid, one of those gay guys had been packing a gun and used it to defend themselves, who do you think would now be standing in front of a Justice Of The Peace and explaining himself, while the attacking youths parents would be mounting a lawsuit against the queers for “using more force than was really required”?
Hi Chuck.
I am willing to entertain your point, that defending oneself might lead to legal troubles. I’ll see your point and raise you another:
If I am walking down the street with my husband and am set upon by brigands, I will shoot the fuckers until they are dead. I would rather face a thousand prosecuting attorneys in a thousand court rooms before I’d take a chance on losing my husband or myself to a gay bashing bigot.
On another thread, I just tried to explain the glaring difference between hate speech and freedom of speech. ChristopherM is a fierce advocate of the right to hate speech, dressed-up as freedom of speech. According to his reasoning, these boys were just exercising their “freedom of speech”.
ChristopherM is an idiot, Chuck. There is no free speech in the theater. For one, there is not supposed to be ANY speech of any kind in a theater. For another, it’s private property, not the public square.
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@Tim in SF –
I don’t want to get into the politics of gun control with you because we will not agree as I assume we both have very stong opinions on the matter.
I do have one question though that you may be able to answer since you seem knowledgeable on the subject, does NYC just hand out concealed weapon permits?
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@Tim in SF: “They should learn to SHOOT back. Carry a god damn gun.”
This did not/does not sound like arming oneself as a means of warding off homophobic aggression. The couple, rather than going to the authorities to handle what was initially a case of verbal assault, should “learn to SHOOT back.” This is not an equivalent use of force as required by law, and it seems would not have been even in the case of the physical assault which occurred outside of the theatre*.
I am all for taking necessary, legal steps to protect oneself (including getting physical with bashers as I’d suggested earlier), so what I’m taking issue with in your post is the use of force as you lay it out. Not with self-arming as described by pinkpistols.org.
Similarly, your contention that: “If I am walking down the street with my husband and am set upon by brigands, I will shoot the fuckers until they are dead,” seems less about self-defense as it does about an outlet for rage. And rage ain’t a bad thing. But if, hypothetically, you’re trying to stop your attackers, why do you have to “shoot the fuckers until they are dead”? Why not just fire into the air, scare them, and get away from the situation?
I do want to be clear that I sympathize with your emotional sentiment and I am in no way calling you, or your argument, “crazy.”
*I am not aware of how NYC treats equivalency when it comes to firearms vs. another instrument of deadly force (ie. a boxcutter).
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@HaplessOrphan: This is not an equivalent use of force as required by law, and it seems would not have been even in the case of the physical assault which occurred outside of the theatre*.
You read too much into my comment, seizing upon points I did not actually write.
Do you need me to hand-hold you through every step of the confrontation, and when and at what point I think it’s appropriate to use a firearm? Or is it enough for me to say that when their lives were in danger, when they were being physically attacked, perhaps that would have been a good time to pull out a weapon and shoot? I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are a reasonable person and can reason your way through the situation. When do YOU think it would be appropriate to pull out a gun and shoot your assailants? That’s when I think it would be appropriate.
And just like that, we’re back in agreement.
I am all for taking necessary, legal steps to protect oneself (including getting physical with bashers as I’d suggested earlier),
Dude, you make a LOT of assumptions, discounting the many situations in which the victim is tiny. Bashers are bullies and bullies are cowards and cowards like to pick on people who are smaller than them. I’ve had three friends bashed. Two went to the hospital for several weeks. The other one went to the morgue — he was 17. All three of them were small men. “Getting physical with bashers” is not an option for them. So, would you really deny them the right to defend themselves with a weapon? If they had been armed, they wouldn’t have been beat up or killed.
“If I am walking down the street with my husband and am set upon by brigands, I will shoot the fuckers until they are dead,” seems less about self-defense as it does about an outlet for rage.
This conversation will go a lot better if you don’t try to psychoanalyze me from a few lines in a comment thread, nor make assumptions about my anger. You do not know me.
But if, hypothetically, you’re trying to stop your attackers, why do you have to “shoot the fuckers until they are dead”? Why not just fire into the air, scare them, and get away from the situation?
Shooting into the air is dangerous. Bullets come down on people all the time, going right through their heads.
And why would I try to scare someone who has just hit my husband with a bat or stabbed me in the side? No, I think the appropriate response to a life-threatening situation is to kill the assailants. Aim and fire. You’re making it way more complicated than it is.
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I really don’t care what anyone says to me. Taunt me, call me names, whatever. It’s a free country.
But the second a person crosses the line from talk to action, I will defend myself and my partner, family, and friends with appropriate force. And yes, if I think the situation is serious enough that it calls for lethal force, I will use it. That isn’t me trying to be a tough guy. That’s a promise. I’d much rather have to face some stupid prosecutor than to have my friends, fiance, family, or myself six-feet-under.
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I’ve been to this theater many times as well, and I can tell you I won’t be going back.
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Honey I’m goin to the movies…oh now where did I put that gun???
Is this really the life you imagined for yourself? I often have a problem carrying my keys…where the hell do I put a gun?
And where do I buy a gun in the first place? I have no interest in carrying around a gun hoping it will scare someone away or that I will have to kill someone.
I also believe that water meets it’s own level, so if you carry a gun chances are increased that it will attract a situation that it will be needed in.
I live in NYC and in the 1970s there was a man named Bernie who was harassed on the subway by some teenagers who attempted to rob him and he shot them and I think killed one and crippled another and he went to prison and his life was ruined.
So go ahead and call me names and tell me it’s better then being bashed or killed. But I don’t want to live in the wild west as a gun slinging gay cowboy.
Let’s work on the system and laws and the public at large to try and stop this atmosphere of hate and destruction, a path that leads to no where.
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@Dray: It was actually 1984, Bernie Goetz shot his would-be muggers, and one of them was paralyzed. If he went to jail it was only for a brief time, and he was widely regarded as a hero and still is today. The city was rife with crime at that time. People forget how rough this town used to be.
Of course it turned into a big racial thing because all the muggers were black (and all had criminal records). Al Sharpton was around back then and already on the race-baiting bandwagon. And Goetz had been mugged before and was fed up.
Look – it is hard to fight back when these savages travel around in packs. They come with knives to the theaters because they are too young to get into clubs (the city cracked down on that).
Have you ever seen the barbarians come out of 42nd Street Loews? (Which by the way – NEVER GO TO SEE A MOVIE THERE). The fact of the matter is they are out of control, there is no accountability, no discipline, and these are urban kids who are brought up in a culture where it is cool to rampage around and be lousd, aggressive, assualting, confrontational, aggresive, hostile, “gangsta”, “Thug”, etc.
When will it be fixed? When the culture and families teach them to soften up, be respectful, be HUMANE and have a CONCIOUS. And when they are shown consequences to their actions. Then and only then.
I predict that won’t happen in a long, long time.
In New York City it is also a racial issue. But after the big cartoon controversy and this climate of racial sensitivity…people are not up to talking about that. I am not saying in other places that there are not white teens who do the same shit. But in New York City, the MAJORITY are not white kids and Asian kids terrorizing the movie theaters and trains.
That is a fact.
My advice? Go to the movies in Battery City (the punks do not usually venture all the way down there), Kips Bay, and the idie theaters. At least until the movie chains TOUGHEN UP AND CRACK DOWN.
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@Tim in SF: Guns nowadays are powerful enough to pass through who you wanted to shoot and end up in the body of an innocent bystander. I do not recommend that route at all.
Let us also not forget that Bernhard Getz had good reason to defend himself but also hung himself as well when he admitted he told that kid he shot “you don’t look so bad. Here’s another one”, and then he shoots the kid again. Allegedly he had never shot anyone before but that was a clear sign his intentions were to inflict massive bodily harm. There has to be a cutoff point but in the heat of passion it is very hard to control, which is why it is best to leave that option off of the table in a public situation.
The last place I wish to see any gay person is standing in front of a judge explaining why you emptied a pistol on a crowded street at a group of attackers and you hit everyone else but them.
Prisons are also loaded with gay people (yes, there are criminals amongst us) who would make this person’s attackers appear to be santa’s helpers. Read that again if necessary.
Sue them for their neglect would be the best thing to do here.
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ROTFLMAO
Guns are the answer. Just make sure you use them. Also, some self defense classes might come in handy, too.
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Carry a gun? What an asshole, bullshit, armchair response. What if the punks had guns? A shootout in a crowded movie theater?
It’s assholes like you who have made America the gun-murder capital of the world.
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@Sebbe: What they have in NYC is a law that says you must have a permit to purchase a gun and must renew it every three years. It is for defense of HOME only.
You also do not get it right away. You have to go through a background check and the cost was $395 two years ago.
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I understand many of you are ignorant of what gay bashing entails, and have never been in a truly frightening situation in your entire lives. I credit my continued existence to responsible gun ownership. When six men jump you with the intent of beating you until you die, I hope you have what it takes to stand up for yourself, because running is just going to make the beating last longer. Screaming for help? Well, you do that with a man’s fist down your throat…perhaps it will fit, too. Oh yes, it is possible to be a responsible gun owner. If gay bashers own a gun, they’re gonna use it (as they have countless times)…on you and those you care about. And no, it doesn’t mean that you’ll randomly start shooting innocent bystanders and yourself.
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I love it when the anti-gunners chime in and say ridiculous, ignorant things about firearms. *shakes head*
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@TANK: Tank you might or might not know this but I am going to say it anyway.
The main reason why a police officer is grilled to the max after taking a life by multi police department officals and panels and must go through psychological screening and counseling WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT is because there is a sense of not caring about doing it again THAT DOES OCCUR. Sadly there are also a lot of lonely little boys out there wearing that uniform and carrying a gun that can’t wait to “cross over to manhood”.
The officer that was at the center of the Sean Bell shooting in NYC had a known disciplinay problem. He alone fired over 30 bullets at a car that was not firing back at him. His own Lt. said he was out of control and no one would listen and he is still on the NYPD as a detective.
There are comments on this article now that are sounding like if someone queen in a bar were to confront them about bumping into them and not saying “excuse me”, spilling a drink accidentally, or accuse them of eyeing a boyfriend or husband and they got physical they would pull out their gun and “defend” themselves right there on the spot. Remember a lot of queens are walking around pumped up off of steroids and are pretty large and athletic. MANY DO STUDY MARTIAL ARTS AND ARE OPENLY GAY.
If a person feels that insecure about being able to defend themself then they REALLY SHOULD TRY A BOXING CLASS OR SOME TYPE OF MARTIAL ART. There is a dance called CAPOEIRA that is basically a martial art and very fun to learn. It is also one of the most beautiful arts out there and it is worth a youtube search if you have never seen it.
Last but not least RUNNING WHILE BLOWING A WHISTLE WILL ATTRACT THE POLICE OR AT LEAST ATTENTION WHERE SOMEONE WILL CALL 911.
Once a bullet leaves the chamber of a gun it keeps going until it hits something. It is then too late to rethink that decision.
When a bullet leaves the
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@gurlene: Guns nowadays are powerful enough to pass through who you wanted to shoot and end up in the body of an innocent bystander.
There are a million situations in which it would not be appropriate to pull out a gun and start shooting. There are a few, rare circumstances in which it is appropriate. I hope you never see one. If I see one myself, I hope it’s on a day I have a piece.
The last place I wish to see any gay person is standing in front of a judge explaining why you emptied a pistol on a crowded street at a group of attackers and you hit everyone else but them.
That fictional gay person you describe, which, by the way, has never happened in the history of mankind (prove me wrong), would be responsible for his behavior. This point is so obvious it pains me to have to write it out. Pull yourself out of your kneejerk headspace. Imagine a situation in which a gun would be appropriate.
I’d rather see a gay person standing in front of judge defending himself from killing some bigots in an alley than reading about yet fatal gay bashing in the paper. I’ve had ENOUGH of that shit. I’d rather see you and every other gay person stand up for yourself, lethally if necessary.
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Gurlene, no offense, but I really don’t see how any of your points line up with mine, or in any way shape or form make your case that responsible gun ownership is not a reasonable option to pursue in personal protection. In fact, I don’t know why I’m responding. I don’t really seen an argument to respond to, either. It seems like a bunch of anecdotes, horrible regrettable accidents and what if worst case scenarios loosely connected to each other to deter any form of coherent reply… Once again, no offense. I am not going to change your mind and you are certainly going to change mine.
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lol! Well, I don’t have to correct myself, but why not. I obviously meant that you’re not going to change my mind. There’s a rough streak of petty going around for which I may be partially responsible.
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Yeah, but say what you want. Just keep your hands off of me.
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To be honest, the racism of some of these descriptions bothers me more than a little. But I do know that it is seemingly a rite of passage of many straight teenager males of any ethnicity (albeit usually of a socioeconomic class) to go around beating up fags.
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@Chitown Kev: I know it bothers you…and it will bother others…and that was NOT MY INTENT.
I am just talking about what I have seen here in NYC. I don’t think we should be afraid to make observations. In order to address problems, we have to be honest about them. If I saw hoards of other kids doing the same thing – believe me, I would say so. Like I said, it could be different in the suburbs.
What I want to know is how to we make these kids civilized and compassionate about others. I think a lot of what they see, hear, and feed off of is poison.
It is just pure aggression. A different sense of space, noise, everything. I want to know where it comes from.
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Hindsight is 20/20.
Stop playing Monday Morning Analyst and dissecting what these survivors could have done, and support them for what they have actually been through. Victims of anti-gay violence do not deserve to have their intentions visited like this.
And as a proud longtime gun owner, the attitudes towards firearms I see displayed here are fit for budding bullies bent on revenge, damn the consequences. People who talk like that have no business around firearms. Grow a pair before you even think about traipsing around the city cocked locked and ready to rock…or at least take a damn safety course.
Assholes.
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@Chitown Kev: I know what you mean though…college frat guys do it as well. Gay bash as a ritual. Rich, white educated ones and middle class ones. I know that all too well.
I was more talking about teen violence at movie theaters in the city, so my context was more narrow. (I guess because the postings on the board veered towards questions of self-defense and fighting back).
Believe me, I know gay-bashing is an all across the board thing with straight guys of differing raes and backgrounds.
And I have seen white kids pummel each other and post it on myspace and shit like that.
I guess a lot of them have a fascination with violence and aggression.
Maybe a lot of it has to do with lack of parents to keep them in check, make them go to the library and study, sit down with them at dinner and know what the hell they are doing, etc.
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No, I understand that it was not your intent.
I mean, I was in a movie house about 10 years with my boyfriend at the time (me black, he Latino) and we weren’t gay bashed but it was rowdy (weed smoking, fights breaking out, the whole nine yards). We got a raincheck and left.
And I have been gay bashed before so I am pretty sensitive to both sides of this issue
It could just as well be some redneck kids somewhere at a strip mall in Georgia or Indiana and the description would be accurate.
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“Just keep your hands off of me.”
Excuse me. Is that a threat you just made toward me?
Because if it is, then I think the police need to be informed of it.
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Charles Mueller
to holla
show details 6:57 AM (0 minutes ago)
Reply
To Whom it May Concern
I believe that I have just been physically threatened by one of the posters on the NYC Gay Bashing thread. I made one post on that thread, no. 17, which was in response to Tim in SF. I said nothing in that post that was threatening to anyone, least of all, Chitown Kev.
His reply to my post came out of nowhere. It’s provocative and sounds very much like what the kids in the NYC movie were doing and I am seriously considering reporting it to the police.
It saddens me to say this, but I have observed that the atmosphere in the various threads on Queerty.com, have become increasing hostile and abusive with comments like the one I am reporting. As another regular commentator stated on these threads, Queerty has become target for what he very appropriately called, surf-by shootings.
I am posting this email to holla@querty, on the the thread from whence this threatening post came as I think that this matter should be brought to the attention of other posters who often find themselves bearin brunt of similar abuse as well.
Here is a copy and paste of the offensive commentary I am reporting.
No. 39 · Chitown Kev
@Charles J. Mueller:
Yeah, but say what you want. Just keep your hands off of me.
Posted: Feb 21, 2009 at 12:07 am · @Reply · [Comment already flagged. Email holla@queerty.com for help.]
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Well for one who is born and raised in NYC and not an Import. This is nothing new at all. Coming from Bklyn and just growing up with 5 brothers who knew early on I wasn’t “Like Them” so to speak. Always encouraged me to defend myself so I never was scared and I understood later why they were like that with me.
When I came out to them they were like “YEAH WE KNEW” that’s why we made you play fight us and be able to handle yourself. And I had a few nights in my early Gay years of handling my business if it was on the street or subway. I wasn’t having it and I never will. It shouldn’t have to be this way. But I am NON-TOLERANT of sh^t as such.
However, @ 42 I am very understanding of NOT to attract this type of attention. Now before you gurls begin to lose your KQQL. What I meant by that is this PDA’s are cute and cuddly and all. However, We as Gays will always be met with opposition so if you’re going to do this where you know some folks might not like it. Remember it’s not you problem it’s theirs, However you can’t be a punk when being confronted because guess what? It had just become your problem also. So stand tall get ready to rumble if necessary and just get your “ROCK” on and be unbothered about it.
Bet you’ll be left alone afterwards and will get respect!
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You should of ripped the box cutter out of his hand and beat the shit out of one of them and then cut faggot across his face, he would never fuck with anyone again. When people call me shit I freak. I would of gotten up in the theater and thrown my soda in his face that would of shut that little asshole up. Obviously he had ADD if he could not pay attention to the movie..lol
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This is so disturbing. My boyfriend and I go to this theater all the time.
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Get a grip! Did you read my post 45?
Although looking at my post 39, I see where you are coming from. But, it’s like, dude, Idon’t even know you.
My own personal philosophy is that I could care less what anyone says to me. Now when you put your hands on me in a physically threatening way, then I have issues. Then the prospective person would have to go and say that they a faggot (in this ME) kicked their ass.
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You know what, I should have done a much better job in clarifing my point, Charles. Iually agree with your sentiments much more often than not and reading that over, I see the confused message in my post. I was wrong.
Virtual friends?
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Ah Tim, they would probably grab your gun, shoot you, and clain self-defense.
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[EDIT OF #52]
“Get a grip! Did you read my post 45?
Although looking at my post 39, I see where you are coming from. But, it’s like, dude, I don’t even know you.
My own personal philosophy is: I could care less what anyone says to me. Now when someone else puts their hands on me in a physically threatening way, then I have issues. Then the prospective person might have to go tell his homies that a faggot (in this ME) kicked his ass.”
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This is really an interesting thread, and I have to say I am all about the right to own a gun etc in the States, I come from there after all. But at the same time, it also strikes me how sad this all is. You supposedly live in one of the most advanced democracies in the world, and you feel the need to carry a gun to provide protection or assert you rights, all the while the US government is running programmes to disarm Afghans. It find it amazing. I live in London now and I am not going to pretend that this is some post-modern paradise where the homos go unassulted 24-7, but really, I don’t think many of us would thin that the response here would be the carry a gun, and I say this as someone who knows how to shoot. I mean, hell, this is NYC. I think you should be more concerned about how to get society to act in the interest of all people in NYC and the wider states rather than carrying a gun. It is really absurd. I love how after the VT shootings so many people said that if only the students had guns it would not have been a catastrophe….I mean seriously, look at the figures. Something is screwed up on America and as an American looking from the outside in, it ranges across the spectrum gay and straight. If we are supposedly the future of the world, democracy yadda yadda yadda, humanity is up the creek without a bloody paddle, hell, we don’t even have a boat. In any event, good luck.
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i think this story is good for people to hear but horrible for those dudes it happened to. You get to see how people in our community would or have handle situations like this.
Is Discretion the better part of valor? At what point does one turn the other cheek. Couldn’t you be arrested and sued for kicking some kids ass (that is if you’re even able to)? And, really, what if you just don’t have the skills to kick some bunch of hoodlums ass. Do you take their crap? How far does it go? Could they possibly kill you?
There are a million scenarios and I think like another poster said, we shouldn’t judge but support.
Altho, going forward, I would like to know how peeps would think they would handle this situation. Better yet, if you’ve been in a similar situation, what did you do?
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@scott:
Well, I was actually in the movie theater situation once but nothing happened specifically to me and my then-boyfriend. It was just too much rowdiness in the place altogether and it made it difficult to watch the movie.
As far as gay bashing is concerned, three separate incidents here, each circumstance had a very different vibe to it.
In one incident, though, it was a good old fashioned street fight between thugs and queens. The numbers were about even at first even, so we fought back. Eventually, though, they called in thug reinforcements and weapons (a gun was pulled on me!) and we scattered.
In the first 2 incidents, yes, I wish that I had a weapon of some sort. Then again, you can never be too sure whether the other side has a weapon…
It’s been a long time since I thought about that.
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Oh great. Let’s have everyone carry guns to the movie theaters and start shooting in the dark. That’ll solve the problem.
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Guns are permanent. Don’t carry them, especially in New York City. You definitely SHOULD fight back. But no guns. You should also see a lawyer. If this is an accurate story, it sounds like the theater acted negligently in a few instances. If you haven’t seen a lawyer yet, do so now.
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Dexpat Mike
“This is really an interesting thread, and I have to say I am all about the right to own a gun etc in the States, I come from there after all. But at the same time, it also strikes me how sad this all is.”
What you said! I agree. I lived in the US for 10 years altogether, and have lived on four continents since. The US has major problems with itself and its attitudes. It is a very sick puppy. I presently live in South Africa, with a crime rate that makes inner Houston where I once lived look calm. But a good voice and a good manner and some street sense has kept me out of trouble four six years now. I am not implying blame the victim. What happened to these guys should happen to no-one. But guns are not the answer. There are too many guns here already, and you are very likely to have your own gun turned on you, as happens even with trained security guards. Most of the guns in criminals hands have been stolen from legal owners. I know martial arts, but the best use of them is to talk your way out. I’ve never been hurt myself since my teen years (and I always “won” then — fortunately I grew up). I am 60 now, and most people in the hood know me. I have no fear because I care, and most other people do as well. The US is on a long slide to oblivion, in my opinion, and the only thing that will stop it is a caring society. I really hope so.
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@BobP:
While I am loath to respond to you since you are clearly a reactionary person–a natural for messageboard discourse–I feel the need to clarify. Lawyers, law enforcement officers and countless other professionals rely on getting all the facts when investigating and evaluating a case, test subject, what have you.
When I read the victim’s statement above, I noticed that the movie he and his boyfriend went to see was never mentioned. Attending a screening of a film like Notorious (the Biggie Smalls biopic not the Hitchcock classic), which set off several violent incidents in theatres, or a controversy-baiting film like Gran Torino is very different from seeing a movie like Confessions of a Shopaholic. And even though I stressed the fact that what happened to the couple should not have happened, regardless of what film they saw, I think that knowing which film they attended might present a clearer picture of what occured that evening.
While I will allow that tone is difficult to interpret via text sometimes, hence, BobP, your reading humor into my question, what I find particularly galling is your accusation of immaturity. Without knowing one iota of information about me, you tell me to grow up, while adding the condescending ‘pal’. If I were you, I would take a hard look at myself and question my motives and, considering you still believe my question to be a joke, my level of maturity.
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I am glad that you did, in fact, decide to respond to BobP. Like you, I too felt that his comments were snarky and uncalled for. I was tempted to say something about BobP’s comment but thought to myself, “It’s not your fight so MYOB”.
I have tried to maintain that perspective of minding my own business and limiting myself to responding to the topic at hand. I do not believe that I have the right to personally attack other posters for their viewpoints with vicious and denigrating comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread and I am perfectly happy to abide by the Commentary Rules that Queerty has established to assist in maintaining some degree of decorum in these boards.
Unfortunately, there seem to be some blogers who obviously feel that these rules do not apply to them and maintain their right to break these rules, using freedom of speech as the justification.
Sorry, that just doesn’t cut it. Life is filled with rules, many for our own good, safety and well-being and when we break them, there are penalties to be paid. I, for one, would be the very first to surrender my license to the Department of Motor Vehicles, were there no rules of the road. Driving, without rules would be sheer mayhem and pandemonium with assholes doing whatever they pleased and going as fast as they like without regard for anyone’s safety, much less, their own.
I do not consider it a violation of my right to free speech, when I tell an officer of the law that I would like to be able to drive at 100mph in a 50mph zone, and he tells me “No. You cannot do that” and presents me with a ticket for speeding.
Your question was perfectly legitimate and here was nothing in it that warranted BobP’s uncalled for rude and condescending comment he made to you. You did not violate any of the Queerty Commentary guidelines.
Your observation about reactionary remarks being a “natural for messageboard discourse” is right on the mark. I have noticed, and commented on the fact as well, that there are quite a number of blogers who try to take control of the boards and prevent others from expressing their their thoughts and opinions, as BobP obviously did with you. And when you try to defend yourself from these unwarranted, personal attacks, they in turn, accuse you of being a “bully”, a “Hogger of the boards”, etc., etc., etc.
Perhaps it is a sign of the times or the fact that I am a bit old-fashioned; maybe even a combination of both, but I am of the opinion that snarky, catty, and bitchy remarks are just plain rude at the least and exceedingly disruptive to the discourse at best. Not only is it a bad reflection on the parents who raised these people, it also shows up their ignorance.
I have been cursed at, called names, insulted, called an old man (there appear to many ageists on these boards), stalked and even threatened on a couple of occasions. As another poster whose commentaries I very much enjoy reading said, gay sites such as these, seem to attract surf-by shootings and people whose only purpose for being on these blogs, is shit-stirring. I couldn’t say it any better myself.
I have flagged several offenders and written a couple of emails to Holla@queerty.com about this problem, but as of this writing, have received no response. Either they do not care about the comfort and ease of their readership, not to mention their safety, or they totally support the concept that hate speech is merely another form of freedom of speech.
Anyway, that’s my two-cents worth. I just thought you might like to know, that there are others on these boards, who feel very much the same way as you do.
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I neglected to add that perhaps it is people like BobP who needs to grow up and earn the right to call you “pal”…and in a nice way, not the condescending manner in which he tossed it at you.
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@IntotheNightlife:
I’m a bit troubled by your use of the words “savages” and “barbarians” to describe urban youth. A little bit of a throw-back to the good ole days of white hegemony and colonialism?
It’s a complex world, and these labels don’t serve any useful purpose but to denigrate whole groups of people along racial/ethnic lines.
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I’m sorry, but gay men need to get more of a back bone. At the first sign of harassment the gay couple immediately played victim. I mean who just allows themselves to be called faggots and have the back of their chairs kicked at a movie theatre without saying anything to the person doing it? So they run and tell management, which is classic “run and tell the teacher.” All that does is fuel the “bully.” This is like 3rd grade stuff people. The gay couples reaction in this situation makes them appear weak and that’s a big problem with a lot of people in the gay community. You gotta stop playing victim at some point. Otherwise you are bound to be one.
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@Nate:
I was taken aback by that a little too, but his descriptions would also include the Jackson Heights bashings in 1991, I would assume.
And I don’t think that he would hesitate to throw Matthew Shepard’s murders into that “savages” category. He gave other examples.
Truth is, there will be a racial/ethnic/cultural angle to it.
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Another note:
It’s a good thing that this occured at a movie theatre.
So many times rowdy teenagers will go to known cruising spots (that they may or may have not visited for other reasons at times) and do exactly this sort of thing. Many of those incidents go unreported because of the social stigma involved. And it’s not exactly like the police are friendly or helpful in many of these situations.
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@Cee
You may be right that gay people need to get a backbone. Here’s the thing, if you’re going to say something you better be prepared to back up you shite. Because some people don’t just play with words and will take you down. Apparently these punks wanted to get into a fight, so it might’ve made sense. But speaking of guns, how do you know the punks aren’t packing? Are you ready to risk your life? And maybe your lover’s life?
@Chitown Kev
thanks for relating your experiences.
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Chances are that if one feels like one needs to use lethal force to protect oneself, they do. There are exceptions, of course, which is why one needs appropriate training on the use, maintenance and handling of firearms before one starts walking around with a gun. If you ever are in a situation where you need to use a gun, or even require drawing one, use it. A gun is not a threat, and should never be used as one. The motto for all gun users should be to neither wound nor warn. If one is even thinking about a gun for personal safety, one should observe all precautions, and realize that if one draws it, one had better be prepared to shoot someone with the intent of ending their life.
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Interesting…but the Jews DIDN’T know….and when you are a minority and immigrant in a country, it’s not that easy to fight back…
Just saying..
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btw, I think this queerty thread, “The Parents of Murdered 8th Grader Sue EVERYONE For Not Forcing Him to be Less Gay (http://www.queerty.com/the-parents-of-murdered-8th-grader-sue-everyone-for-not-forcing-him-to-be-less-gay-20090217/comment-page-1/#comment-125190”
…is apropos to this Gay bashing thread. Sometimes, you don’t know who is effed in the head and what effed up people will do.
Again, I’m not saying you shouldn’t fight back… just be careful and make sure you can take them down good, possibly permanently. Crazy folk might come back after you because they have nothing better to do in their life.
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I just read where Regal responded. Check it out.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/dailymusto/archives/2009/02/regal_cinema_re.php#more
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Look, i’m not even gay, or a guy, and I’m still 14. But isn’t that really dangerous, i mean, if you start carrying guns, dosn’t that make you the bad guy and give others an actual reason to not like you? I have absolutly no problem w/ gays and lesbians. literaly almost half of my family is gay. But if they started carying guns and avoided the problem instead of confronting it and making it better, I’d call them a cowards and have nothing to do w/ them.
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Not that this has any bearing on what happened, but does Queerty know which movie they went to see?