Randy fellows in search of a modern-day digital safari need look no further than Douchebags of Grindr (semi-NSFW) where you can shoot and hang your d-baggiest Gridr finds like so many mangy lions’ heads. Yes the site is barely a month old and isn’t nearly as funny as it should be, but the sheer hilarity of people with no self-awareness comes close that the LULZ of the now defunct Look At This Fucking Hipster and Lurid Diggs (totally NSFW).
We’ve included a short gallery of Grindr douchemasters above to lure you into the site’s decrepit halls of shame.
GayBachelorBlog
One of my favorite new sites!
meego
With the attitude no. 4 has, he’s setting himself up for a very lonely life.
lika
what is up with these self-hating Asians (#3) who can’t imagine themselves being with another Asian brother? What is the psychology behind this obvs lack of self-esteem?
QJ201
Back in the dark ages of the internet (circa 2000) there was a website in which they blacked out guys faces and bodies and commented on the decor in the background. It was friggin hilarious.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@lika: Self-hate.
Daez
@lika: Why is a desire to try something different self hate when its an Asian into white guys thing? Is it self hate when a younger guy wants to date an older guy? Is it self hate when a black guy wants to date a white guy? Is it self hate when a thing guy wants to date a fat guy?
Some people simply look for different features than what they currently have when considering attraction.
Daez
Also, what the hell is with the plethora of “racists” on that site that are considered racist only because they don’t want to hook up with another race. I’m sorry, but 95% of my friends are black, I work with all black people, I absolutely love black people, but I still don’t (on a normal basis) want to fuck one and I certainly don’t want to try to actively hook up with one. Not being into black guys doesn’t make me racist.
Conrad Honicker
Ah! It’s like the seen at Wal-Mart! LOL
equal
Shame? Do we really need to contribute to shaming people? Haven’t we learned that shame is a destructive force?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction….The chain reaction of evil–hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars–must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation. (MLK)
Jeffree
Love that place! The captions / descriptions could use some punch
@QJ201: Maybe it was a different site, but I remember photos of a muscle-bearish guy whose apartment was filled to the rafters with dainty unicorns in glâss or porcelaïn… It was my screensaver for weeks. Wish I’d have saves it.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@Daez: Yes, actually, it does make you racist. Telling us about all the black people you know and stating how you fulfill your racial quotas in your daily life short of “fucking” them and dating them makes you sound even more racist. I would tell you to stop while you’re ahead but it’s too late for that.
N00b
@TheRealMannequinAdam: Yes, and all gays are misogynists, correct?
Daez
@TheRealMannequinAdam: Not wanting to fuck a black guy does not make me racist. If I was treating blacks like second class citizens then I would be racist. There is no “black quota” in my life. You guys take this PC bull shit entirely to far. I’m sorry that I’m not attracted to black guys, but attraction is what drives hooking up…not racism.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@N00b: No, of course not.
@Daez: You’re the one who brought up race and racism in your comment, not me, so obviously you have some race issues you need to work out. I don’t even know why you mentioned black people and not wanting to date black men in the first place.
I don’t really care what your preferences are, and you don’t have to apologize for them. I have them just like everyone else. But good luck trying to convince yourself and others that yours aren’t racist.
Aiden
@Daez: I don’t think it makes you racist, but why is it when Asian and black guys aren’t into their own race it’s always white guys? I think it shows society’s bias towards white guys. I don’t think it makes you a bad person or a racist, but it doesn’t hurt to understand things are the way they are.
RomanHans
Folks, remember, there are some real idiots here. Please ignore them. I’m a positive person, so I assume they’re heterosexuals trying to make us look dumb. Because honestly, do you know any real-life gay people who make as little sense?
N00b
@TheRealMannequinAdam: Of course not. Because that would be stupid. Just like it’s stupid not to expect people to discriminate when they’re dating: it’s the one place we should be able to be selective without having some “ism” attached to us. Race, gender, sexual orientation, size, etc don’t matter when it comes to work, friendship, etc. But it can when it comes to attraction, because we don’t control that. It is possible to be empathetic to heavy people, women and ethnic groups without wanting to fuck them all: it’s called having standards (and those vary with each person, and even with time for a single person). A 20-year old girl who refuses to date people older than 25 is not an “ageist.”
And it’s easy to jump to assumptions, and call it self-hate, but we don’t know the whole story. I know of Indian girls who dated almost exclusively outside their race during college because they know that after, their family will force them to marry some guy of their own caste, or turn their backs on them forever. I wouldn’t call those self-hating.
Seriously, we should know better than to judge others based on their preferences. Preferences automatically imply discrimination, there’s no getting around it.
@Aiden: Always? Really? How many Blacks and Asians who date outside their race do you know?
VinciSmetana
Dude, in the U.S. we (whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Native-Americans, old, young, fat, skinny, short, tall) are all conditioned from the get-go to desire the Abercrombie and Fitch model. For most of us, it seeps its way into our subconsciousness, even though we insist we know what our “taste” is and believe it on top of it.
Sheesh!
@TheRealMannequinAdam: “so obviously you have some race issues you need to work out”…. And so pop psychology rears its ugly, misinformed head once more. Dude’s right. It’s not racist to be attracted or not attracted to someone. It’s preference and it’s completely valid in the same way not being turned on by red heads or long hair or back hair is…. Grow the fuck up and stop trying to be a bunch of sex nazis.
That said, I was expecting WAY better tragic photos than these.
Daez
@TheRealMannequinAdam: Maybe, just maybe, you should look at the site in question BEFORE attacking me for commenting on it. Hmmm! Maybe if you did that you would totally understand how the vast majority of flames on that site are at white guys that mention their preference for fucking white guys in their captions only to be decried as racist for doing so. Then you would understand EXACTLY where my comments come from.
VinciSmetana
And, it’s important to point out that out of the four pictures Queerty displays for ridicule, half of them are minorities.
And, yet, when they showcase men we’re supposed to drool over, worship and fantasize about, 95% are white.
Not a coincidence and it supports my point #18.
Sheesh!
@VinciSmetana: Not me. Gimme a thick piece a fur covered beef that’s got a filthy edge to him and I’m in heaven. You can keep you disaffected hairless youth with their vacant eyes, small brains, and shriveled souls.
lika
@Daez: Desire, aka body politics, is greatly influenced by society, culture, and media. Oh? You didn’t know that? The fact that we are overwhelmed by white, chiseled, buff male images as the standard of beauty in this country will have great impact on everyone, including ethnic minorities. These same ethnic minorities will then develop this desire towards whiteness as the gold standard–unfortunately they’re not white enough, so they might as well be white by association. Now do you see the link between desire and race? What’s even more disturbing is the blatant racism in explicitly excluding people based on race: No Asians, no Blacks, etc. I mean, it was pretty common to see “No Dogs, No Blacks Allowed” on the doors of restaurants in Jim Crow South. Why are we exactly allowing this same race-based exclusion on online forums, craigslist ads, etc. and hiding behind our so-called “innate desires”. When you’re excluding based on race, that’s racism even if you just want to have your dick wet. Therefore, you are racist. Check yourself, Daez and go deeper beyond the surface level of the issues.
@N00b: And by your logic, all straight people are homophobic and anti-gay by the virtue that they don’t sleep with the same-sex, right? Man, this is so pathetic.
N00b
@VinciSmetana: “And, yet, when they showcase men we’re supposed to drool over, worship and fantasize about, 95% are white.”
Yep. But I suppose it’s what happens when a select few pretend to speak for everyone. I’ve read several Queerty articles that have made me roll my eyes (that celebrity HIV thing is a travesty in my opinion, and worse than anything I’ve seen on Fox News), but then I remember that only a handful of them are writers/editors, and they’re probably very much alike to each other.
Even in the comments they don’t allow a different view; see how many times one will be called a “troll” and ignored for saying something that’s not “normal.”
Henry
I can’t believe Queerty thinks the first guy is a douche. He’s pretty damn hot.
N00b
@lika: My logic? I was being sarcastic and showing the stupidity of the other person’s argument.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@N00b: I was responding specifically to a commenter who mentioned race and racism out of the blue and for some reason decided to throw black dudes under the bus as undesirable, and even went through this whole argument about how many black people he knows. His comments made no sense.
@Sheesh!: “It’s not racist to be attracted or not attracted to someone.” OK, fine. I don’t really care how you justify making race-based comments and then say it isn’t racist. I’m not black and have no personal investment in this discussion.
@Daez: I have been here for months, and know how the site “functions,” dear. Don’t attempt to lecture me on what I should and shouldn’t know.
If you want to fuck only white guys then do it. That’s your business, not mine or anyone else’s. But the fact of the matter is that you’ll get called racist and be perceived as racist when you make race-based comments like that. I don’t blame blacks for getting offended by it.
lika
@N00b: Are you referring to TRM’s argument that there are racial elements in excluding a sexual partner based on race? That’s a valid point actually. Or did I miss something?
TheRealMannequinAdam
@lika: I agree with your comments and understand all of this, but good luck trying to explain all of this to people. I can’t begin to imagine how POC feel, but I do notice the racism masking itself as “preferences,” as if that somehow makes the race-based exclusion less harmful or offensive.
@N00b: Lika was right. And all you did was show the stupidity of your own comment, and your limited understanding of the issue. That means you FAIL.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@lika: He’s trying to say that excluding women because a person is a gay male, is the same thing as a white person excluding a person of color because the person is only attracted to other whites. Which is a huge crock.
You’re born into sexual orientation. You’re not born preferring one race or color over another. That’s something you acquire.
scott ny'er
i think some people need to look up the definition of Racism. To save you the trouble:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
See the difference. True racism is when you HATE another race. Wanting to get busy because you prefer a different race is different than hating a race.
Fitz
If you enjoy this, you might also get a giggle out of watching little cripple kids trying to run.
lika
@scott ny’er: Can you define “HATE” for us, Scott? Because we’re all craving to see how “expansive” this list is and the many variations “HATE” come through when dealing with race. It’s also ridiculous that you only wanted to define this debate as “HATRED” (definiton 3), while missing the top 1 and 2, imho, more important to highlight in today’s race discussion. That’s probably why it’s #1 and #2 definition. Because how you wanted this debate to be framed, you’d rather have burning cross in front of house before someone says “Ah hah! Racism!”
N00b
@TheRealMannequinAdam: “decided to throw black dudes under the bus as undesirable,”
I’m the one with comprehension problems? He said he was not attracted to black guys, I don’t see that as saying “they’re undesirable.” If he said “I don’t see how anyone could date a black guy” it would be a whole other story.
“You’re born into sexual orientation. You’re not born preferring one race or color over another. That’s something you acquire.”
Hmm. This sounds vaguely familiar. I’d love to know where you did your research to come to that conclusion.
@lika: “Are you referring to TRM’s argument that there are racial elements in excluding a sexual partner based on race?”
Precisely. People come in all shapes, colors, sizes and of course genders. One can argue that you’re born with tastes for particular variants of all these, and I’m one of those that do. Others will say you’re brainwashed into liking those variants, and I disagree. Because that’s when you fall into “curing” attractions and all sorts of shit that gay people should particularly be wary of. I don’t know a single person that goes into dating without certain standards. We could sit here and argue theoretically but in the real world you have a pretty good idea of what you want before it comes to you. Some of us change our minds because those tastes are not based on reality, others cling to them because they’re born with them. In the end, how a person dates and who they date should not be a call for judgment. Or again, gays hate women, lesbian and straight guys hate men and people who find Hugh Hefner creepy just hate old people. See how it works?
TheRealMannequinAdam
@scott ny’er: The race-based comments here could fit into defintion #2, so yes, it could be seen as racism.
But here is a more accurate word that sums up this debate:
prejudice
1.
an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2.
any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3.
unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4.
such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5.
damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.
Ian
@Fitz: I’m sure the comparison between 20-something dudes looking for a date and poor little cripple kids isn’t lost on everyone. Sure is lost on me though.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@N00b: Your comments definitely live up to your name. I won’t even bother.
N00b
@TheRealMannequinAdam: No problem. I hate it when I have no counter-argument as well. Can’t win them all though, can we?
TheRealMannequinAdam
@N00b: “Can’t win them all though, can we?” Yeah, especially in your case.
lika
@N00b: “Precisely. People come in all shapes, colors, sizes and of course genders. One can argue that you’re born with tastes for particular variants of all these, and I’m one of those that do.”
Really? You came out of your mother’s womb and knew right away you would like vanilla ice cream more than chocolate ice cream or whatever favorite ice cream you now list on your FB profile? You came out of your mother’s womb knowing what your favorite color will be? That’s so incredibly amazing. Excuse me while I call bullshit on this. So you’re saying society, culture, family and media do not have an influence on what your politics are today, your likes, your dislikes? Whatever has come out of your mouth or whatever gets your dick hard is totally, just simply you? I can’t even extend the argument anymore because you’ve rejected the whole concept of environment as an influence on human development. Game over.
Hugh Hefner is creepy because he is creepy, not because his old.
N00b
@lika: Yes, I believe so. If it were not true, people would fuck indiscriminately before TV and marketing appeared. It is not true. If you think society or whatever forced certain tastes into your head, why stop there? Are you saying that homosexuality is due to a “gay agenda” as well? If so, could it be “cured,” just like education could “cure” those racist people of their ignorance? If not, what process did you use to draw the line?
Henry
@N00b: people’s tastes develop very early in life. You’d have to ignore the past 100 years of science to think it’s straight genetics and not primarily about childhood. That kind of machine-like thinking about the genetic usually leads to brain dead and unhealthy consequences, like racism.
N00b
@Henry: And blaming it all on the environment can lead to homophobia. I never said people’s tastes were static or that they couldn’t change with time (either due to internal or external factors). But to even respond to those environmental cues you must “have it in you.” And if someone judges you on how you respond at a particular time (either by saying you shouldn’t be attracted to a particular gender, or a particular race, exclusively or not) then we have a problem. Sexual preferences (and this is not limited to just gender), wherever they come from, should not allow us to hate, as long as nobody’s getting hurt and it’s all consensual.
lika
@N00b: What I’m saying is that you are now entrenched in your position that you do not even see my position anymore. How can you say that people have innate desires based on your own, singular experience; thereby, rejecting the notion that environmental factors do influence human development, which yes, includes sexuality along with other factors, genetic and biological. This is not news, Buddy. This is well researched.
But let’s come back how this conversation started. Again this whole discussion came up because #3 photo was clearly a self-hating Asian who cannot imagine themselves with another Asian because other Asians are not white enough in his head. Whiteness again is the gold standard because of environmental factors influencing our desires. Then the conversation morphed into explicitly race-excluding for sexual partners and how that is racism. When you say, “No Asians, Latins, and Blacks” you are making a racial statement. When you say, “Please be this tall, with a huge dick, barrel chested, bearded” you’re expressing a preference, because those physical qualities can be found in all races. See the key difference?
N00b
@lika: “How can you say that people have innate desires based on your own, singular experience; thereby, rejecting the notion that environmental factors do influence human development, which yes, includes sexuality along with other factors, genetic and biological. This is not news, Buddy. This is well researched.”
First, if we are to have a discussion like normal adults, let’s cut the “buddy” crap. It’s condescending. Second, I know this is all researched, and I also know how genes work. You can’t trigger a gene that doesn’t exist, or has a variant that’s not there. If someone has the “straight variant” of gender attraction, no matter how many gay ads you bombard him with he won’t respond. Same is for race. Some people just don’t find Black features attractive. So what? Move on to the next one who can’t get enough.
“Again this whole discussion came up because #3 photo was clearly a self-hating Asian who cannot imagine themselves with another Asian because other Asians are not white enough in his head. Whiteness again is the gold standard because of environmental factors influencing our desires. ”
Do you see what’s going on here? For all you know he’s been dating every other race except whites and wants to try that. But you’re jumping to conclusions, and calling him a self-hating Asian. Now you’re the one hating, simply because of someone’s preferences. If I were an Asian I wouldn’t care that some dude out of the 3-4 billion who exist don’t want me before he even knows me. I’d move on. It’s very easy, and really there’s nothing you can do about what he wants. Again, attractiveness is one of those things where one should be allowed to discriminate, because you can’t control what gets your dick hard.
“When you say, “No Asians, Latins, and Blacks” you are making a racial statement. When you say, “Please be this tall, with a huge dick, barrel chested, bearded” you’re expressing a preference, because those physical qualities can be found in all races. See the key difference?”
The only difference I see is the one you posed. Why can’t race be part of a preference? Is it simply because short, small dicked, manbreasted and clean-shaved guys don’t identify as a group? If so it seems pretty trivial to me, as that group can be hurt just as bas as the ethnic groups you listed.
Henry
@N00b: That’s a pointless reply since I didn’t make an environment-only argument. You made a genetic-only argument. And the fact that you appeal to possibility when you talk about having it in you shows how stupid it is. If those things haven’t been expressed, they must only be latent. But to be latent is to be possible. Any possibility destroys the genetic-only argument. Who knows how large the field of latent possibility is?
N00b
@Henry: “Who knows how large the field of latent possibility is?”
Nobody knows. But we do know that field is not the same for everyone. I appeal to the possibility because some have it latent, others simply don’t have it (hence some are bi, others are strictly attracted to one gender; some are open to different races, others are more exclusive). And I don’t believe I made a genetics-only argument, I agreed that those things vary with time since the beginning. Don’t try to put me into a corner so I don’t say your first reply was pointless as well, because it clearly was according to your logic.
Henry
@N00b: You didn’t reply to my defeater of genetic-only thinking. As for my first reply, I assumed a combination of genetics and environment. You don’t seem capable of thinking outside of extremes, which is a dangerous side-effect of putting faith in the genetic.
lika
@N00b: The foundation of your argument WAS genetics-only, but you only ceded and moved from that when called out on your BS. If you can’t even recognize the points you’ve ceded to this debate, then what’s the point of having a debate? Didn’t you say “Yes, I believe so.” as a response to my question that you came out with pre-set values out of your mother’s womb?
N00b
@Henry: It’s not that I am not capable of thinking outside of extremes. It’s that I don’t believe either genes or the environment works “alone,” or that one ends and the other starts. The environment triggers genes, but those have to exist to get triggered. Unless you somehow induce mutations (which is pretty rare in the grand scheme of things), I do believe you are born and die with the same set of genes. Some are latent for certain people, others express themselves pretty early, and that’s true for who you are attracted to, in friendships, work or sex. Sometimes you need to get over those (as in when you’re employing someone), other times I see no point.
If you still disagree that’s fine, we can agree to disagree.
lika
@N00b: “The only difference I see is the one you posed. Why can’t race be part of a preference?”
Oh it can. And many people have. And they’re called douchebags (see #3) and racists time and time again.
“The only difference I see is the one you posed. Why can’t race be part of a preference? Is it simply because short, small dicked, manbreasted and clean-shaved guys don’t identify as a group? If so it seems pretty trivial to me, as that group can be hurt just as bas as the ethnic groups you listed.”
Do this for me, actually post a craigslist ad and exclude out the physical attributes you listed above then post another ad with race exclusions: No Asians, Latins, Browns, Blacks, etc. Report back to me and see which ad got more response charging you with racism and racist attitudes. Ok? Can’t wait.
N00b
@lika: Well then either I misunderstood what your question was implying or you misunderstood my reply. There is no such thing as “genetics-only,” (how can you be attracted to something you’ve never seen?) just like the environment can’t teach someone to be attracted to others (if a naked black guy doesn’t do it for you, he doesn’t, period). That was my point.
N00b
@lika: Are we seriously going to take this argument to “what do most people think?” There was a time most people thought gay marriage was a calamity. In fact, there are places where most people still think so.
lika
@N00b: Newsflash, it is racist. And that’s what most people think. And people who continue to harbor race-exclusionists and racist attitudes should be called out. Just like when people think gay marriage was a calamity, they should be called out for their homophobia. Thank you for reminding us that we have the power to do this time and time again. 🙂
N00b
@lika: You’re welcome. And you’re also welcome to believe it is racist and call whomever you want on it, I just disagree. But the “most people think” part is not a good argument, sorry. In reality “most people” is often a vocal minority (I seriously doubt that Craigslist is a good sample of the dating population), and even if they’re not it doesn’t mean they’re right. History has had plenty of examples of this.
AedanRoberts
@TheRealMannequinAdam:
Sorry- but you are wrong. A preference for a skin color or a set of facial features is no different than a desire to fuck thin guys or fat guys or muscly guys. You can’t choose what you are attracted to any moreso than you can choose to be attracted to a particular sex. To say otherwise is ignorant and silly.
If a person simply isn’t into the aesthetic of a white person, a black person etc it does not make them racist. And it is a false equivalence to the whole “I have gay friends so I’m not homophobic.” That is a statement used by those who are trying to deny gay people their basic rights or even their basic existence. Saying “I have a ton of friends of all colors but seem to be attracted almost exclusively to the aesthetics of one particular kind” is not trying to deny any of those people they claim they are friends with any sort of rights or equality. They are simply stating that in terms of who gets them hard- black guys or asians or white dudes may not be the thing that makes them tick.
And to call it racist is to infer your own insecurities on this subject.
lika
@AedanRoberts: Let’s boil this down. What exactly is it about “Blacks” that one cannot be attracted to? Is it the shape of the head? The width of the nose? The size of their lips? Why is it that these physical attributes, which can be found across racial lines, is considered less desirable when they occur on a black skin?
andy
Yes, I agree that someone who excludes from their dating pool an entire group of people solely based on their race is not just superficial but also clearly a racist.
AedanRoberts
@lika:
Oh for the love of god. Get over yourself.
How about you ask the particular individual? Or are you asking me personally? Because the reasons are different for every person. Could there be people out there who don’t date/fuck black people because they are racist? Sure. But are all people who don’t have a desire to fuck black people racist? That’s ridiculous. And the same could be said for blacks who only date asians, or indian men who only date latinos.
For me? I go for certain traits- regardless of race. I like green/hazel/blue eyes, thick eyelashes, people that are fit but not too over-muscled. I tend to go for people with pale skin and straight, dark hair. I’ve dated Asian guys that fit the bill, latinos, and even an indian guy who had the most amazing hazel eyes. You don’t have to adhere to all my standards but its important to contain some of them. Does this tend to exclude certain ethnicities more than others? I’ll openly admit that- but it does not mean I treat anyone any differently when I meet them or get to know them. I do not discriminate against who I’m pleasant to or who I pursue as friends. If you are a nice person who is fun to talk to I could care less what you look like.
And I tend to find this to be the case with everyone. Some people have broader tastes than others. Some people are very picky. But unless that picky person is also discriminating against who they speak to/interact with/work with/fight for they are not “racist” just because they don’t go for a certain ethnicity sexually.
@Andy: what does that even mean “based solely on their race”? You mean “I don’t fuck asians because they are asian”? I’m sure if you asked the person what they meant by that they would elaborate to give a better explanation. If their follow-up is “I mean what I said. Asians are terrible people” then I’d agree with you. But somehow I doubt that’s what the majority mean when they say that. Most guys I know of who don’t go for asian men are also guys who are mainly turned on by really hairy men. It just naturally excludes MOST (but not all. Definitely not all) asian men simply due to basic genetic factors that disctate that on average asian men are pretty hairless.
AedanRoberts
@QJ201:
Are you talking about Hunters And Gatherers? The blog that took entire profiles from Manhunt that were hysterical and them did little commentaries on the choice of photo/descriptions?
scott ny'er
I actually think you demean the word, racism, when trying to use it in this context. For me, racism is about hate. While, saying what you prefer is about being attracted to. And I think, that you guys are so offended that someone isn’t attracted to your race that it colors your understanding of racism. I used to think it was racist and stopped and really thought about and understood how it’s about attraction and preferences.
lika
@AedanRoberts:
“Oh for the love of god. Get over yourself.”
Get over myself? Why? Because I’m asking you to do a little bit of self-examination on your racial attitudes. After all, you’re the one who brought up aesthetics, I just wanted to get the specifics out there. I have aesthetics that I go by, but I don’t go around excluding and saying “NO [INSERT UNDESIRABLE RACE HERE]” since the aesthetics I go by do cross racial lines, including yours.
So we’re excluding people based on “averages.” That’s progress? How sad for your friends to totally exclude all Asians because they feel that on average Asians are smooth. Are you sure they’re not also being informed by other Asian averages, some might say stereotypes?
lika
@scott ny’er:
Who are the “you guys”? What race am I? What race is anyone here?
Can you tell us then, culling from your own life experience, what is racism and how have you felt racism in your life? The one you speak of hate.
scott ny'er
@lika: i didn’t speak to #1 and #2 because they don’t apply to the realm of attraction and wanting to get busy.
@TheRealMannequinAdam: I don’t think prejudice fits into who one is attracted to either.
racism and prejudice is doing harm against others… being attracted to other races is about wanting to be loved and preference. If what y’all are saying is true, then y’all are sexist (not digging women), and fatist (not digging fat people) and twinkist (not digging twinks), etc.
scott ny'er
@lika: you guys are the ones who seem think it’s racist.
i feel racism is similar to homophobia… hatred of a person based upon their race. And actions derived of such hate is racist actions. People who aren’t into Asians (insert whatever race here) don’t hate Asians, they are into what other races they are attracted to.
lika
@scott ny’er: again, have you experienced racism yourself, scott or are these generalized examples to give weight to your argument? i think you have a myopic understanding of what racism is scott and that’s why i keep asking if you yourself have experienced blatant racism in your life. go for specific, please.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@AedanRoberts: I’m not insecure on the subject and have no reason to be, since I’m not being targeted by the racist banter, here. But to deny that attraction is racialized and therefore racist is disingenuous. I don’t care what you call your racial preferences, but trying to tell blacks and other minorities that it isn’t racist, is a zero-sum-game.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@scott ny’er: No, it’s not just about doing harm to others. It doesn’t even have to be about hatred. You can be racist while having the best of intentions, or no intentions at all, and that’s what you fail to understand.
AedanRoberts
@lika: I have no idea whether that is the case. Neither do you. All you can see is what comes of their preferences. Does that preference go past simple sexual attraction and into how they treat certain ethnicities altogether? If so that’s a problem.
If it doesn’t? If they treat everyone with equal respect and only gauge a person’s worth based on their individual positives/negatives? Then it isn’t a problem, I wouldn’t consider that racist, and I find it silly to lump them all into that category.
AedanRoberts
@TheRealMannequinAdam: I’m not “trying to tell blacks and other minorities,” Mr. Iliketoinferthings. I’m telling everyone. Racial minorities or majorities. Am I offended when a black guy tells me he’s not interested in having sex with me because I’m white? Nope. Same goes for every other ethnicity. If you’re not into me I’d rather it be because I simply aren’t your type physically than for something concerning my personality.
THAT is far more insulting.
lika
@AedanRoberts: But if one of those perceived negatives is based solely on race, then…uhh *that’s THE problem.
Agent 001
@AedanRoberts: Unless you are going to remain single for life you will also need to click with the person and value personal traits.
Looks fade, for some quickly or others slowly.
What happens if your partner refuses to dye his greying hair? start balding, or body changes during your relation? You will then need to find new partner who fit’s bill of attractiveness.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@AedanRoberts: Sorry, but that’s exactly what you’re doing, which is why you and the other white people who defend race-based prejudices are trying to make it out like you’re not racist.
“Am I offended when a black guy tells me he’s not interested in having sex with me because I’m white?”
I don’t care. White people aren’t the subject, here. Why are you comparing your experiences as a gay white male, to what gay racial minorities go through when dealing with gay white men? That’s absurd because they’re incomparable. There isn’t an equal playing field for the reasons already given by lika in post #23.
I will never for the life of me understand why it’s so difficult for *some* of my fellow white gays to just shut the fuck up and actually listen to what POC are saying.
Agent 001
I’m also getting tired of hearing the expression:
I’M NOT INTO BLACKS, ASIANS BUT YOU ARE SO HOT!
lika
@Agent 001: I know right! And the consolation prize goes to… and that you should feel extremely lucky that they got together with you to begin with. lol.
scott ny'er
@lika: i have been made fun of many times in my life because of my minority race. i have been picked on because of my race. i have been singled out and been the lone non-white person because of my race.
scott ny'er
@Agent 001: this to me seems like someone who is being offended by not being picked for the team… and it’s understandable but this is also part of why I think it’s coloring some people’s mis-understanding of the word racism
scott ny'er
@lika: also this is possibly reading into something where there is no ill intent. It’s seeing evil where there is none. Instead of seeing how this person digs Asians and are not into Blacks. Now, maybe there is more to it but I’d like to see it as something positive and just move on.
lika
@scott ny’er:
very generalized still, scott, so i’m gonna call BS on your experience. Because racism comes in many different color as pointed by TRMAdam. You don’t have to have black-hearted hatred to conjure racism, like the ones you believe should only qualify as racism. For example, have you walked into a bar only to be asked for not one ID, but two IDs while the bouncer let’s in white customers without a hassle? And finally to walk into a bar and see that the people working behind the bar are usually white and the people picking up your glasses are more than likely either black or brown? Yes prejudice and discrimination, overt or covert, do occur. And when they do and it is felt by the person of color, the experience is so dehumanizing and bankrupt that you have to wonder why it’s still happening in the year 2011, despite progress that’s brought about by the Civil Rights Movement and into a community that’s supposed to be welcoming and diverse. The case, I cited, Scott happened in SF 5-6 years ago. I’m just saying, if you’re gonna talk racism, make sure you actually know what it is before you start speaking about it and defining it for the rest of people who truly has experienced racism.
scott ny'er
@lika: i see. so my racism isn’t as good as your racism. And since you’ve experienced a supposedly stronger type of racism, only YOU get to decide what is racism and what isn’t. Oh and nobody else could truly understand what racism is unless they experience what you did. Gotcha.
yep, that makes plenty of sense. I was almost understanding where you were coming from before. Now I understand it more in a different way.
we’ll agree to disagree because I can see that logic is failing here.
Jay Pat
My fave is “Racist Douche.” That seems to account for like a third of the people on grindr, maybe even half in some areas.
lika
@scott ny’er: I gave you numerous times to speak directly to this racism definition you think is the the only definition people should use before they start using the word “racism.” I gave you an example why your definition is myopic and narrow-minded and yes, racism extends to your bedroom even when it’s about fucking. But you didn’t back up your statements, instead citing generalized statements. So, I’m asking you again, what is it exactly in your experience did you feel racism, according to your definition of complete and total hatred. And why again should we just use your definition instead of a broad-range of racialized experience, which includes the lines “No blacks, no Asians”?
jeff4justice
@equal: Amen. However it’s good to somehow have conservations with these guys.
I typically message a guy when he expresses racism or gay on gay bashing language in his profile and I talk to him about it.
jeff4justice
Not cool to out people (unless they’re public figures). That’s what this site will do.
Henry
What concerns me is that genetics came up in a discussion of race. People can prefer to date within their own race and still be racially tolerant. But they can’t talk about genetic preferences and genetic determinism as they relate to race and hope to be seen that way.
Jon
Alright, I’m an Asian male… it doesn’t make me an expert by any means, but I do have some insight to some of the ugly truths about the situation.
It’s a simple fact that, of people who hold a bias in their preferences. Race wise, non-whites tend to get a shitty deal because we do sometimes get lumped together. But, you know what the good thing is? The amount of people who “aren’t into asians” has decreased by an immense amount, at least from what I have experienced. I can’t speak for any of the other minorities because I don’t have that first hand experience but I’m 27 now and things have drastically changed since I was 18. And it’s not just based on my own perception. People are getting more open minded as time goes on, isn’t that the good news we should focus on?
But even with that positive fact, you should really think of it this way:
It still happens, and it happens quite a bit.
Is it kind of shitty that it happens? Yes.
Does it matter? No.
Why? Because we’re entitled to our preferences. And it really is no loss to us if someone doesn’t desire us based on their closed-mindedness.
It’s pointless to get mad over the fact that someone isn’t into you. Because, like in all matters of attraction, it goes both ways. There is someone out there who thinks you’re beautiful, so why waste this effort into being mad about something you have no control over? Your rage doesn’t hurt him, it doesn’t change his mind. The only person getting hurt in this ordeal is you, and to be quit honest, you’re the one inflicting this pain onto yourself. It isn’t worth your time or energy to stress over.
Besides, isn’t it the discriminator the one that’s missing out? If anything, pity the guy who closes himself off in this way and move on. This guy isn’t worth your time or energy. You’re better than letting yourself be affected by that.
In regards to #3 in this slideshow: I don’t think he’s a douce for not being into asians. I don’t think he’s a racist for not being into asians. I do think it’s a little closed minded, perhaps a little too certain of the fact; but he likes what he likes. How does that make him racist? Now if his profile said: “Friends Only: White’s Only” then yeah… that’s pretty racist but that’s not what it says. Now on that site theres a profile that says “Asians: prees reave me arone”. I find that racist because not only does it display his preference (which is, on it’s own, not racist) but it demeans that group of people based on a stereotype (see: racist). That guy is a doucebag, this guy is just closed minded… also, he’s 20, what the hell does he know, anyway? He can’t even buy you a drink, so who gives a shit? Yes, I’ll admit it, I am unabashedly racist against people who can’t buy me alcohol… in fact… hold on a sec *updates Grindr profile*.
But in all seriousness, think about it, do you really have any control who you get hard over? I know I don’t.
It sucks we can’t get what we want sometimes, but to become enraged over that fact seems a little pointless to me. Yes, the media has its bias. We’ve all seen the Abercrombie ads with the hot white boys and their friends: the freckled girl and the black guy.
Is it unfair? Probably
Is it a poor representation of who can be beautiful? Absolutely.
Is there anything you can do about that? You can not shop there, I guess. But besides that, not really.
Is it anything new? Not at all.
In media, things have been progressing at a pace that can’t really be called progression. And yet, society is the one that drives what the media shows. Like I said before, I’ve noticed that things have been getting better for my asian brothers and I where I am. Of all of them, I’m the only one in a committed relationship (Polish, Native American and Spanish… hell fucking yeah) the rest of them are single and, trust me, it’s by choice. Life doesn’t reflect media and it never has. Whether it’s body type, hair color or race, it’s never been an accurate cross-section of the population or even the desires of the population. It’s becoming less and less so, we all know this.
So seriously, relax. Take a breath. And when Friday comes, put on that shirt you know you look hot in and go find yourself a man who thinks you’re sexy as hell. There are too many out there to bother with the few who see things only in black and white.
JayKay
My god, you sociology majoring, uber-leftist, PC police types are the whiniest, most obnoxious, most overly sensitive little bitches roaming the planet.
Scrape the sand out of your vaginas, shut the fuck up, stop crying about the plight of the poor, oppressed persons of colour, and deal with the fact that everyone is not required to be attracted to everyone else at all times.
lika
@JayKay: @JayKay: gotta love some unapologetic, sheer white privilege in full display here. yeah you dirty brown and black folks, racism? get over it. ha!
meego
@Jon: Finally, a sane, intelligent reply.
JayKay
@lika:
“White privilege” does not exist. It’s a fictional boogeyman invented by minorities and self-loathing whites.
In Defence Of JayKay
I agree. Seriously. You want to talk about racism? What about this none-too-subtle white bashing going on in this thread. Funny how it’s only white dudes getting called out as being racist. Been online much? Seen plenty of ads from (for example) black guys who will unapologetically state they’re only looking for other black dudes. But that’s not “racist” either? What’s that? Affirmative action? Fuck off!
lika
@Jon: Thanks for the pep, talk, man. But the issue was never about feeling sad about oneself or becoming enraged because people are racially excluding a group of people.
You yourself acknowledge media can help inform, if not develop, one’s sense of beauty extending to his self-esteem. Yes, one should be able to question these so-called “preferences” especially when it’s based on race. What informed him, at 20, why he can’t be with another Asian? I don’t think he’s dating experience would have given him enough experience to say, yup, Asian not for me. And that’s the danger. The fact that he’s young and he’s approaching the dating scene and race excluding at such a tender age of 20 is a by-product of the social conditioning of the people he hangs out with, the community he’s in, and the images in the media he’s inundated with daily.
It’s true, “It’s becoming less and less so, we all know this.” But it doesn’t mean we should refrain from questioning people’s assumed truths, especially when it comes to racial elements and attitudes they project. Because unfortunately, we’re not there yet. And to be called @JayKay: ” whiniest, most obnoxious, most overly sensitive little bitches roaming the planet” because we confront this issue head on is simply the type of regressive and counter-productive attitudes to be expected from people who are so happy with their place in this pecking order that any discussions that may destabilize this system will receive such callous, insensitive treatment.
Jon
@lika:
The media might suggest to the 20 year old what he should like, but at the end of the day, he makes the decisions of who he sleeps with, who he loves. If the media had complete control over the definition of beauty we’d have made no progress at all. Advertisers follow trends, and until things become obvious, they stick to what they know. They take some blame. but the choice has always been our own. It’s certainly not to the media’s credit that things for me have gotten better since I was 18, so who gets the shout-out?
The simple thing we take from this is that things are getting better. We’re becoming more global and more aware of the beauty in variety. Variety exists both within the races as well. Perhaps it’s not “asians” that many people aren’t into, perhaps they’re not into people who are short and thin. If that’s the case, they’re only ignorant and may be open to being proven wrong. I’m 6′ tall, broad shoulders and a tapeworm away from having a six pack. I may not be white, but I’m guilty of subscribing to that “Abercrimbie Ideal” in some way, shape or form. I live in Detroit where people don’t get much exposure to Asian people. Like yourself, I know what it’s like to hear “I’m not usually into Asians but…”. At first I used to get offended by that, but over time I’ve realized that a lot of these people simply don’t have the exposure that others do. They’re not being racist, they’re admitting – to some extent – that they’ve been proven wrong by their closed mindedness. And on this kid: you’re absolutely right, he’s 20 years old, is just that ,he’s 20. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been proven wrong since I was 20. If he was truly self-loathing, he wouldn’t care what picture he put up, he wouldn’t exercise enough to have that body or have the desire to show it off. He likes what he likes, that doesn’t mean he’s not open to be proven wrong. He’s confined to what he knows and he’s stating it, plain and simple. Is it PC? No, but it’s honest and honesty can be crass. He is choosing to live within those confines and perhaps it will change. I’m the first Asian my boyfriend has dated or slept with and every guy before me was white. It doesn’t mean he was a racist before meeting me, does it?
AedanRoberts
@In Defence Of JayKay:
While I do NOT agree that white privilege is a fabrication (I witness the effects of it every day living in NYC) I do agree that there is a LOT of racism being floated around this thread directed at whites in concern with this issue.
I can’t empathize or understand the situation to make a proper judgement/assessment of the situation because I’m white? Fuck you. Seriously. Fuck you. You two are just as bad as that guy from one of the original Real Worlds who claimed that “black people can’t be racist- only whites can be racist.” that is completely false, the proof is all over the place, and your little “you have no idea what you are talking about because you are white” is proof of this as well. Lucky for humanity that people have the capacity to understand and empathize with a world that isn’t entirely their own. Have I been racially discriminated against as bad as black or Latino men? Nope- I would never claim that. But I have been the subject of discrimination- whether it is because of my sexual preference, my religious heritage (I was raised Jewish in a town where we were the only Jewish family), or simply because Im not drop-dead gorgeous or 6’3″.
Dismissing the opinion of an entire ethnicity because of the color of their skin? Making wild, sweeping generalizations about a person because of the color of their skin? Sounds pretty racist to me.
Also in response to an above poster who asked me what I’d do after the looks wear off? Where did I say that looks are the only thing that matters? Of course mental and emotional compatibility are important. But no more or less important than attraction physically. They ALL play a part in successful relationships. Some may find certain parts of that trifecta more important than others- but you have to have all three. You don’t if all you are looking for is a hookup or a life-long friend, but that initial spark is necessary and the subsequent compatibility equally important for a strong relationship.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@AedanRoberts: “I can’t empathize or understand the situation to make a proper judgement/assessment of the situation because I’m white?”
No, in this situation, you absolutely cannot, and the fact that you think you can shows the incredible arrogance of the way you think. You’re narrow-minded, shallow, narcissistic, and incredibly dense.
AedanRoberts
@TheRealMannequinAdam:
Back at you. No seriously. Good job on that one. Every single one of those descriptors fits perfectly with what you just wrote. Oh and for the record? Assumptions like the one you just made are actually racist. Completely so. So have fun with that 😉
TheRealMannequinAdam
@AedanRoberts: Blah blah blah.
Chyorno
I never thought I’d say this, but after reading the negative sentiments expressed on this forum and other LGBTQA[INSERT MORE BULLSHIT] forums, I hate being Black. There, I said it. Don’t get me wrong, though; I strongly believe that I am one of the most physically beautiful men on the planet, but right now, I wish I could have been born any other race but Black, even if it meant losing that beauty. And I kind of hate myself for this. I could have cared less about other men’s racial preferences. I strongly believe that racial preference has little to nothing to do with racism, but it doesn’t stop my heart from shattering into a trillion pieces every time I read “NO BLACKS” (Yes, in all caps, just in case “a Black” is hard of reading) or “no dinge.” I never thought that my sense of self-worth could be brought down by mere words. Fuck this world.
Interesting
@Daez: That’s not what he said. He said “No Asians.”He didn’t say “I like men of different backgrounds” or equally not offensive “Race does not matter.” I am not even Asian, and I would not respond to this douchebag.
Interesting
@scott ny’er: The game is to pretend that the motivation for wanting only the dominant race is because o attraction rather than the influences of society, racism, around you. People have done experiments on line in which the situation was strictly supposed to be platonic (no sex involved) and the guys who didn’t want to date blacks or latinos or whatever- didn’t want to hang out with them in any context. That can not be explained away as about physical attraction. I know a guy who did it as an experiment on Craiglist. The responses were universally ‘I am not interested” even in platonic ads for friendship. Again reality- check- what does that say to you?
Interesting
@lika: This is the subject of a book that’s about to come out. That even when accounting for physical features (take the same photo and darken the guy’s picture so that he looks brown for example although he’s white or doing the reverse) there are people who will skew towards racial preferences while claiming its not racism although its the exact same guy.
UWSguy
LMAO aren’t they all like this?
Interesting
@scott ny’er: What demeans racism is to pretend that somehow sexual attraction, which is mostly a social construct out side of gender attraction, can not be born out of racism. Next, you will tell me that the guys I dated in my 20s who said I wasn’t “black enough” for them were not racists just because they liked to date black guys. Yes, they did, but guess what’ they were looking for racial stereotypes to date.
Interesting
@TheRealMannequinAdam: The example I give of what you describe is this little or white lady. She was not mean or hateful at all. When I told her that I got into college, she said that I would be better off playing basketball or something natural like that for me (I’m 5’9 and a geek).
of course
Thank you so much for reminding me of the name for Lurid Digs!
Since stumbling across it months ago I’ve been trying to google it back to no avail.
“gay porn terrible interior decoration” didn’t bring me the search results I was hoping for at all.
kuy
Maybe the gay white guys don’t quite understand since it’s rare for someone to say ‘no white guys’, but it doesn’t make you feel good about yourself when you see a guy’s comment about about how he doesn’t like/want black guys. You take it very personally and it doesn’t make you feel good about your self-image.
Interesting
@Agent 001: What are you clicking with and what personal traits are you clicking with? On paper, when you look at my background and interests in ads versus some of the guys that I have emailed, we are like 99 percent the same. Same interests. Same backgrounds. Etc. The only difference is that I am not a white guy. So, let’s be honest here- you are making assumptions about me and other eople of color based on what exactly? Certainly not on “clicking” unless clicking means “not my stereotypical image of black guys.” And before you ask- I date all races.
Interesting
@scott ny’er: Racism takes on many forms.
Interesting
@kuy: No, I don’t care if they don’t want me. My problem is that by lying to themselves about the reasons why, which are often stereotypes and assumptions that they have internalized about race (without even knowing it), they pass that shit around like a virus. In other words, the only way racism is ended is if you shine a spot light on it and keep shining on it, even when its uncomfortable. One of the reasons that almost 50 years after the Civil Rights Acts we are still dealing with the virus of racism is that a lot of it went underground. You can still see many of the arguments that my grandparents dealt with today because people don’t even know they are using racialized arguments. I allowf or the fact some guy is not going to be attracted to me. I am even okay with someone not being into some black guys. But to make a broad statement about all blacks, or to say one can not even hang out with blacks or latinos or whateve,r even in platonic situations- that’s racism. The fact that they don’twant to call a duck a duck is my problem with these situations. Often times when you scratch the surface of why someone does not want to date a black guy, its often racial stereotypes.
starrydayy
@Chyorno: See, it’s comments like this that really sting. Whether anyone actually believes whether or not racism is tied to “personal preference” in relation to dating or whatever doesn’t concern me at the moment. What concerns me is that we have people of color, namely black individuals in the gay community that have to read such a pejorative sentence: “I don’t date blacks.”
It’s heart-wrenching, honestly and truthfully. And while we’ve seen it for all races – “no blacks, no asians, no indians” even “no whites,” I have never in my life seen so many dating profiles and ads which specifically target the black community. Putting aside some of the earlier arguments, we still have yet to address the fact that LGBT folks feel so comfortable explicitly excluding racial groups so out and in the open. It stings. It’s hurtful. It’s wrong. It’s one thing to have a personal “preference” (whatever that really means) and keep that to yourself, but it’s quite another to make it so public. I don’t even think the straight people are as bad as we are about this. It’s shameful and disgusting.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@Interesting: She was stereotyping and being a bitch.
@starrydayy: I find this to be the case, as well. I don’t understand the need for gay men to broadcast their “preferences” that way, and so absolutely.
Blake White
@AedanRoberts: You’re a racist queer. Just embrace it and keep it moving. Lots of KKK members are gay. If you’re in the right state, maybe you can marry one of those guys one day. That is, assuming you aren’t Hispanic or some other race/nationality that the Klan would find unacceptable.
Just remember, you have a RIGHT to be a racist bigot. No one is going to take that right away from you. Just do you!
Interesting
@TheRealMannequinAdam: I know she was a racist. I can’t find it in me however to be angry over her. She makes more sense given that she was some old lady living in the South than some of these 20 somethings on Grindr saying “No Blacks.” She has an excuse as a product of her times. They have none since they seem behind the times.
Interesting
@TheRealMannequinAdam: By the way, I racism comes from all sorts. I have had black guys say they wont date me because black people are… You name it. One guy said that “blacks are not educated,” which led me to ask what he saw when he looked in the mirror because he considered himself educated. His response, and I will never forget this because I cut him off and left was , “see that’s what I mean right there.” That’s why I think of racism like a virus. It infects people, and, they don’t sometimes even know they have the disease. There are other horror stories- the Asian dude who became angry because he did not realize I was black, and explained to me the dating pecking order. Apparently, I was last on the list. Etc.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@Interesting: Just because time moves forward doesn’t mean people change. The surface changes, but the same racial ideas remain intact. Just take a look at the comments on this thread. I’m ashamed of these gays. Absolutely ashamed.
@Interesting: I’m sorry you had to go through that. It’s heartbreaking to read it. So much work needs to be done. The fact that gay people actually think these things are OK to say is shocking and disgusting.
George412
Here’s a thought….why not make it standard online policy to state what you are looking for in a man instead of what you aren’t looking for? I have never understood why someone would say “No fats, fems, balds, Asians, etc.” because all it does is make people who are in those catergories you don’t want feel bad. Doesn’t it make more sense to say something along the lines of “fit, a guy’s guy, thick hair and preferably White/African American/Latino. Why do guys waste time typing what they aren’t looking for since it all it seems to do is hurt people’s feelings. And I think we all at one time or another have fallen into the NO list. I started losing my hair at 19 and let me just say there is just as much discrimination in “our community” as there is racial discrimination.
Interesting
@TheRealMannequinAdam: Hey, it sucks, but that kind of stuff teaches one (at least for me) to look below the surface to find out who people really are, including an examination of my own issues over race. Frankly, I am not telling you the real horror stories, like the one white dude who after I dated him (or I thought I was dating him) for a month, and we finally hook up, he says to me, I like you, but I don’t date black guys. I just wanted to see what the sex is like.” I had many people after wards say to me “oh, that’s just his preference. The experiences were bad, but they were important lessons about paying attention to who people are, what influences them, etc. It sucks I had to kiss frogs to find that out, but I don’t regret finding out.
Interesting
@George412: Well a lot of that is arrogance and ego. That’s why its something of a douche move. It assumes they are so great that everyone wants them, and will be compelled, no matter what they say in the positive, to reach out to them if they don’t offend an entire racial group. Its like the unattractive straight guy who assumes every gay man wants them by the mere fact we are gay. Its totally an ego thing.
Henry
@starrydayy: Give it a rest, you straight troll. Gay guilt doesn’t catch on around here.
lika
@Jon: your idea of self-loathing is only when someone let themselves go and get fat? I know self-loathing can be projected in so many ways. but the fact of the matter is, he’s excluding his *own Asian brothers because he 1) finds them desexualized (because the media does a great job of representing Asian male figures) 2) renders them competition to the object of desire–the white man he so craves for. He thinks white men is the only type of men that’s right for him. Why?
He’s confined to what he knows (NO ASIANS), but why should we accept this as ok? Because we enable it as a community. We’re allowing this perverse idea that it’s ok to exclude based on race and are we surprise then that young people are simply parroting what they see out in the community? Youth is never an excuse for ignorance. That means we have to do a better job as a community what it truly means to be diverse. And that means calling out these racist sentiments on race-exclusion as what it exactly is: racism.
As for your relationship with your bf, I’m not sure how to read your anecdotal evidence. Should I be happy and give you a price for being the first Asian for a white boy who would never have carried on a relationship until they found you; therefore, doing service to the gay Asian American community for turning another white boy for the cause? I’m not exactly sure of your point here.
Henry
@lika: Asian brothers? I think that’s bull. Maybe he’s open minded to the point that he doesn’t see people of his own race as brothers. I guess that’s hard to believe in some parts of this country. The Southern parts. They’re always thinking with their dick. Zing!
“He thinks white men is the only type of men that’s right for him.” Is that really true? He said he prefers white men. I really don’t think it’s as unconscious as you make it sound. Maybe you’re just less in tune with your unconscious than the average person.
Interesting
@Henry: The problem with someone like you is that you will make shit up to support what you want to argue so anyone debating you is left in the position of having to dig their way out of the bullshit.
The guy put “No Asians.” He could have written ‘Open to all races.” “I don’t care about race.” He could have put many things that do not say “I don’t like Asians” as his actual comment implies. Now, could your bullshit be possible? Sure, but that’s the problem with bullshit. It sounds plausible until one thinks about it, about the context, about what was said,a bout our society, about likelihoods, about a lot of shit that bullshit tries to cover up. Bullshit is worse than and out and out lie because it has a sense of plausibility about it. Its a mix of lie and half truths. Here that someone can be open. Sure they can. They just don’t act open the way this douche is.
lika
@Henry: dude you’re so dumb. he said no asians in one line, then followed it with white preference. did you see him write any other preference for other races? exactly. and what is this being all caught up with the word “brother”? what exactly are you zinging?
D from LA
Photos of a muscle-bearish guy whose apartment was filled to the rafters with dainty unicorns in glâss or porcelaïn? That was http://www.justinspace.com He now sells it as a book, but doesn’t have as many photos on his website.
Sebizzar
@kuy: I know, it’s like how we try to get homophobes to understand what we gays have to deal with =/
TopDown
It’s painfully obvious that our sexual desires are innate. Who can possibly say why chest hair gets me all juiced up, but others like it smooth? I’m not sexually attracted to very, very dark skin, but I also don’t find fair skin sexually attractive. I think both can be stunningly beautiful in other aesthetic contexts, but my penis doesn’t respond to them. What if someone finds the double eyelid to be sexually unattractive? Such preference can sound harsh but they are in no way racist. No one is saying that X race is ugly or undesirable, they are saying that for themselves, those triggers of physical attraction don’t match up.
And finally let’s not pretend it is just white gays doing this. We all know there are tons of blacks and Latinos and Middle Easterners and Asians who do this both within their own cultures and toward others. And I accept and understand the rights to their preferences and recognize that, while they might be grounded in racism, it’s entirely possible that they are simply. sexual. preferences.
TopDown
@George412: Not a bad idea, but since the majority of guys looking at a Grindr/A4A/MH do all kinds of cognitive gymnastics to convince themselves that a 35 BMI qualifies as “fit” & decide to contact the guy, I think we state preferences in the negative out of necessity.
If I say I am looking for a top between 5’10” and 6’2″, fit, some body hair, and preferably brunette, then I am going to get 30+ contacts from 5’4″, decidedly unfit and hairless blonde bottoms. I’m not being anything-“ist” against these bottoms and I don’t hate them for who they are, but I just want someone to get me off (which, due to my innate sexual preferences, they can’t), so I don’t want to hear from them. Stating preferences as NOT trimmed, NOT overweight, NOT blonde, and NOT under 5’10” tends to get the point across more clearly.
TopDown
@Interesting:
‘The guy put “No Asians.” He could have written ‘Open to all races.” “I don’t care about race.”’
He could have written the last two, but they’re not true in his case so it would be a waste of his time. If he knows for certainly that at this point he finds white skin or features the most sexually arousing, it is not douchey for him to let that be known on the profile which exists for the sole purpose of getting him off sexually.
“He could have put many things that do not say “I don’t like Asians” as his actual comment implies.”
Nothing in his profile warrants the implication that he doesn’t like Asians or is self-loathing. “No Asians” on a Grindr profile means “I do not want Asians to contact me because I know that I’m not interested in hooking up with Asians.” It doesn’t mean “I think Asians are ugly” or “I think Asians are inferior to whites.”
TopDown
@lika: “Should I be happy and give you a price for being the first Asian for a white boy who would never have carried on a relationship until they found you; therefore, doing service to the gay Asian American community for turning another white boy for the cause?”
LOL I love how it is racist for a white man to not be attracted to Asians, but if he decides to come around and date an Asian, he is a predator trying to fulfill symbolic desire for a subservient.
PUMP YO BREAKS, CRITICAL RACE THEORY
Blake White
@Top Down: You are a racist queer, too. I tell you this fact: I will no longer have sympathy for you fellas that contract HIV/AIDS. Karma is a bitch, and affects us in many ways. Perhaps it just karma doing it’s thing when you catch “the plague.” My heart will feel joy in knowing that you got it from another great white shark!!!
andy
I love the Wanda Sykes view on Reverse Racism which is that Reverse Racism is when a racist is nice to people of color. And conversely when white people are treated badly by other races well according to Wanda that is just KARMA.
andy
Great Thread. I have a feeling there are a bunch of single and lonely Racist gays (of all races) out there who clearly make a fetish out of physical attributes which can be easily be interpreted at racial profiling instead of having an open mind to the fact that people are individuals and they are more than the sum total of their their biological ethnicity. To close yourself off to large segments of the population purely based on racial profiling is racists the definition of racism, AND these tags of “no blacks” “no asians” “white only” “black only” say more about the poster of these remarks then they do of the races they exclude wholesale.
andy
Sorry for they typos; it’s very early.
Interesting
@TopDown: I tired of debating retarded. My comment was responding to someone who claimed that he was someone who no longer essentially saw race. If you can’t be bothered to even read context, I am not interested in responding to the rest of your post. It just as self serving as the fact you ignored the context of my discussion of the “No Asian” line. It is sad how people are so committed to their own bigotry.
Interesting
@TopDown: @TopDown:Again this is how retarded this conversation is when it comes to talking to bigots. You can not, for one second admit to the complexity of how racism work because it serves your bigotry not to get it. It is, in your mind, impossible to be a racist because one is dating Asians. It never occurs to you that the question is why are they dating Asians. If it is because they are attracted to Asian men physical features that’s one thing. On the other hand, if it is because of stereotypes of what they expect to get from dating Asian men, that’s another. You can not admit the later exists.
Jsmith
@Daez: No, not being into black guys makes your prejudice. Stating that you don’t like black guys (which prematurely eliminates anyone of that particular ethnicity) is making a generalized judgement. By the way what is it about black guys you’re not attracted to?
Blake White
Though, my question for the black and asian guys…Why are YOU so racist against your own? Please explain your “preferences” to me. This is serious. I absolutely challenge you to defend yourselves.
lika
@TopDown: @Blake White:
really? so what is it about Asians you don’t like specifically?
and it is self-loathing when a black girl picks a doll that is white and has blonde hair. like how #3 says “No Asians.” booyah!
and what is this “PUMP YO BREAKS, CRITICAL RACE THEORY.” Is that supposed to give you street cred that you’re aware of some critical race theory? Go ahead, co-opt, white boy. show us how it’s done.
man, you’re just picking and choosing what points you’d like to argue ad nauseam for the sake of trolling without contextualizing the whole argument that’s been presented. if you want to engage in a healthy debate, address *all the points that’s been presented.
lika
@lika: sorry, accidentally referenced @Blake White.
lika
@Blake White: See post #23 by me. 🙂 Extended in recent post #120.
Henry
@lika: No, you’re just a jerk who insults people you don’t know. Dating preference is completely beside the point when figuring out whether a person is racist. Racists will always say they’ve dated someone (real or fictitious) of a race they think is inferior. Also the guy is Asian, and he’s looking for someone outside his own race. I don’t know how you think you can turn an interracial preference into a sign of racism. That’s truly bizarre.
Henry
@Interesting: You’re one angry dude, and hypotheticals aren’t bullshit. It’s not like you know the guy at all.
Henry
@Blake White: And you’re a homophobic ass. You jumped from queer to wishing AIDS on him, which is as offensive and stupid as it gets. It’s not surprising that you’re stupid, though, since you said karma was a bitch. There’s no such thing as karma. That’s superstition. People like you who believe in fate turn into gullible nitwits since fate is unfalsifiable.
Vladimir K.
@Chyorno
“I never thought I’d say this, but after reading the negative sentiments expressed on this forum and other LGBTQA[INSERT MORE BULLSHIT] forums, I hate being Black. There, I said it. Don’t get me wrong, though; I strongly believe that I am one of the most physically beautiful men on the planet, but right now, I wish I could have been born any other race but Black, even if it meant losing that beauty. And I kind of hate myself for this. I could have cared less about other men’s racial preferences. I strongly believe that racial preference has little to nothing to do with racism, but it doesn’t stop my heart from shattering into a trillion pieces every time I read “NO BLACKS” (Yes, in all caps, just in case “a Black” is hard of reading) or “no dinge.” I never thought that my sense of self-worth could be brought down by mere words. Fuck this world.”
I feel the exact same way. I even get the “I don’t date Blacks” from other Black men. Platonically speaking(not a real word), I have a hard time getting social acceptance in gay clubs and organizations. I am always made to feel as if I don’t belong and that my presence is a nuisance. I just turned 20 yesterday and my family recently ostracized me for being gay, so things just unbearably difficult for me. I often go to bed in tears.
To all of the non-Black gays here: If it makes you feel any better, I, like Chyorno, hate being Black now and I’m sorry for the fact that Black gay men are such an awful inconvenience for you. I just feel like there would be a lot less pain and depression in Black gay men if we could have been born into non-Black families. I’m going to stay away from relationships and gay men from here on out and focus on my goals for the future.
Blake White
@Chyorno & Vladimir K: If you two are indeed black, as you claim, then I hate you more than I hate racist assholes. I have to assume that you are modern day coons. You do other black gay men like yourselves no favors by saying the shit you just did. If I were black, I wouldn’t give white/latino/other gay men the pleasure of DEFEATING ME in life by saying I hate myself. How sad are you guys? Very damn sad. Moreso, the biggest problem that your “SELF HATE” causes is that you will in turn treat other black gay men as negatively as you are treated (it’s the same concept of self-hate that supposedly masculine gay men throw onto fem gay men). But, still, why do you crave white men so badly? I am white, but I recognize that there are some hot gay black men out there. Other white men don’t. So what. I doesn’t mean that you are not beautiful (and I mean on the outside). Most white gay men are insecure. That’s a part of life as a gay man (well most men – gay or straight). Anyway, get your self-esteem together. It’s an abomination against mankind to hate yourself because you are black. Hate racist gays, not yourself. You aren’t doing anything wrong; they are. And, trust me because I know…most of those gay white racist men are so miserable. LOL! It’s funny because it’s true.
Jason Rothman
@Blake White: I think they’re racist BECAUSE they’re gay. It’s the same way that my people, the Jews, are special because we’re Jews. It’s an in situ specialness. In the olam haba, you’ll be forced to acknowledge that. You’ll be forced to acknowledge every truth you wanted to deny in this life.
lika
@Henry: Have you been reading what I wrote? If you can’t bother to read the full extent of my argument and your simplification process boils down my argument that I’m (supposedly) criticizing someone dating outside their own race, well, you failed your remedial reading class and that’s no longer my problem.
Calendar time
@Blake White: It’s just like a stupid SOB who believes in fate not to argue in good faith. Good faith doesn’t matter for someone like that because talking to a person honestly wouldn’t change anything.
Tackle
@ Chyorno
@Valdimir
I don’t believe for one moment that either of you are Black. Your trying to be claver to use your thered as a self lothing Black man, to acatually put down other Black men. It didn’t work. If fact it wouldn’t surprise me if this is the same person.
Blake White
@Tackle: I think you called that one right. They are not black…just want to stir up the pot. I would wager anything that they have had some type of bad relationship with black guys. I am embarrassed to say it, but a guy I dated was a complete racist. He liked to hide it in public, but at home he couldn’t stop with the racist comments about blacks (as if it was okay because he was in my presence and as a white guy I should be okay with it). anywho, when we broke up, I started dating a black guy. man, he freaked out. he wanted me back and started crying and saying “why are you with that nigger? what the fuck? how can i compete with a black guy?” i was like, whoa!!! what does that mean? basically, he felt he could compete with any white guy, but black guys offered something that he was unfamiliar with and could not compete with. He saw blackness as something so unique and different, he didn’t have anything of value to add beyond his whiteness. once i understood that concept, i realized he was jealous of the black man i was with. i finally got that he felt he couldn’t compete. in reality, he simply couldn’t compete.
Tackle
@Blake White
Very interesting experience you had. Alot of putting others down have to do with an inferiority complex along with lack of self esteem. And the exclusive dating being someone who is not socially or consciencly evolved as a person.. And I find it amusing when some say they don’t date someone of this ethnic or wont sleep with someone of that one.
Like that group is missing out on something great. When these people are most likely below average with very little to offer anyway.
Dome
@Interesting: “It is, in your mind, impossible to be a racist because one is dating Asians. It never occurs to you that the question is why are they dating Asians. If it is because they are attracted to Asian men physical features that’s one thing. On the other hand, if it is because of stereotypes of what they expect to get from dating Asian men, that’s another. You can not admit the later exists.”
Of course I admit the latter exists! I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I agree that lots of men date Asians because of stereotypical features. Your absurdity is that you assume that this Asian boy is trying to “convert” whites to the “cause.” Not only are you assuming what is true for him absent ANY context, but you’re now assuming what’s tryue of his (hypothetical) partner. What if he finds that guys with skin lighter than his own get him sexually excited? Does that make him self-loathing? What if a white guy happens to like typically Asian features like the double eyelid? Does that make him a predatory or RACIST? Absolutely not. It makes him a sexual being with preferences, just like all of us have preferences for hairy/smooth, muscular/slim, or any other characteristic.
I’m not denying that some racism exists, the frustrating part is that anytime that anyone expresses a preference that offends the fragile fibers of the sociological holy grail of “critical race theory,” you all label him as self-loathing and racist. To do so is both disingenuous simplification and utter distortion of reality.
Interesting
@Dome: Are you on LSD? I have to ask that because you are just making shit up. If you can not cut and paste where I say anything near what you just wrote- that should tell you something about yourself.
TopDown
@lika: “really? so what is it about Asians you don’t like specifically?”
There is nothing that I “don’t like” about Asians. I love Asians. Guys with a white-to-lightly-tanned complexion and blue eyes tend to catch my sexual attention. I’ve lived in Asia and watched a fair share of Asian pornography; it simply doesn’t get me off. Sexually, I find a face with round eyes more attractive than one with a double eyelid. I know for a fact that there are plenty of Asians who feel like my round eyes make me look like a clueless and foreign deer in the headlights. I accept this, and I understand that every member of every race is going to be attracted to different things. I respect that sexual preferences are pretty innate, and one can’t choose to whom he’s attracted. It’s not a big deal.
@lika: “and it is self-loathing when a black girl picks a doll that is white and has blonde hair. like how #3 says “No Asians.” booyah!”
I see, so because some are self-loathing all are. You are crucifying this guy for expressing a preference about which you know nothing. What if he spend his entire teen years dating Asians and wants to try something different? What if, on that particular day or week, he was feeling like some white cock? This makes him morally deficient? You’ve never been in the mood for a certain “type” at one time or another? I love how “radical queers” theorists are all seemingly asexual and devoid of instinctual passions (unless lesbian or transsexual of course, but then there’s that thing with the Sociology department on Thursdays…
“and what is this “PUMP YO BREAKS, CRITICAL RACE THEORY.” Is that supposed to give you street cred that you’re aware of some critical race theory? Go ahead, co-opt, white boy. show us how it’s done.”
No I don’t need street cred; but, I am tired of having it foisted upon me that I have to “check my privilege” when buying a bagel or brushing my teeth. We all get that there are racial injustices and we all get that prejudice is still alive. But attempting to reign tyrannical over anyones’ sexual preferences will never, ever solve this problem.
Dome
@Interesting: Are you on LSD? I have to ask that because you are just making shit up. If you can not cut and paste where I say anything near what you just wrote- that should tell you something about yourself.
Why don’t you be helpful and respond to any, or even just one specific point that you find objectionable? What is one thing that I made up?
lika
@TopDown: “Sexually, I find a face with round eyes more attractive than one with a double eyelid.”
You do realize that not all Asians have double eyelid right? and now you’re just succumbing into third-rate stereotypes like that blonde debutante @ USC who was severely castigated for her ridiculous rant on Asian students, rife with “ching chong”.
@TopDown: I respect that sexual preferences are pretty innate, and one can’t choose to whom he’s attracted.
Sexual preferences as innate desires? Unless you can prove you were raise in a cave and only came out of your hole yesterday and you came out saying, “I only like white boys,” then I’ll believe you. Sexual preference is not innate. Society, culture, media, your own family, your circle of friends help condition these sexual preferences. And when it comes to physical attributes usually attached to skin color, then that’s learned. That’s completely learned. Not innate. Reminds me of that R&H South Pacific song “You’ve Got to Be Taught.” Beautiful song. The core lyrics are:
You’ve got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff’rent shade,
You’ve got to be carefully taught.
But the great thing with being taught one way is that you can *unlearn it and learn the right way. As much as that Asian guy can unlearn why he can’t find other Asian men, men who looks like him, precisely like him as attractive and as beautiful as the white man he yearns to have to validate his gay existence.
@TopDown: What if he spend his entire teen years dating Asians and wants to try something different? What if, on that particular day or week, he was feeling like some white cock? This makes him morally deficient? You’ve never been in the mood for a certain “type” at one time or another?
Now you’re just being ridiculous and start making up background scenarios about this guy #3. He wrote “NO ASIANS.” How is that expressing preference? You express preference using positives: I want, I prefer, etc. I’m not sure if you fully understand the immeasurable harm this statement sends to Asian guys out there, especially coming from another Asian man. This guy was not expressing his preference, he was expressing what he thinks about Asian men: not equal to or less than the white male counterparts. Notice the difference? And you’re being disingenous and cynical to even suggest that when he wrote “NO ASIANS” it was as if it’s just for that one day or one week. Seriously? So much mental gymnastics here. Is that what *YOU do on a daily basis? What other races do you exclude from time to time? And how do you prioritize this? From the lightest color on the top to the darkest ones at the bottom?
You should check your white privilege because you fail to recognize and continue to do so, hiding behind the auspices of “sexual preferences are innate” while turning the blinders on the effect society, media, culture and your own community of friends on your sexual preferences. And that sheer arrogance is white privilege at its core.
Frank
I really don’t have a problem with who you date. Date whomever you want. I will say however, that from what I’ve seen, that gay men do segregate themselves by race when they socialize and anyone who say otherwise is kidding themselves. In fact, I would say the two times when America’s most segregated would be Sunday morning church service and last call Saturday night at a gay bar. It’s rare for me to see a truly racially diverse set of gay friends. Either they are almost all white with a couple of token people of color, or almost all minorities. And another thing, would it kill the makers of websites like these to throw some color on their pages. I mean do they really have that much to lose from showing more than occasional black, Asian, or Latino face? I often wonder what the world would be like if it was the other way around and you had scores of closeted white kids in America journeying through adolescence with their only connection the gay world consisting of viewing magazines and websites filled exclusively with dark skinned and ethnic men, or watching gay themed movies where the protagonist is always a person of color and never anyone who looked like them. Somehow I have a feeling if that were the case this discussion would look a whole lot different the it does now.
Aaron in Honolulu
QUEERTY, I DON’T GET IT…
Why is the Asian guy a douche bag for not being attracted to his own race and is into white guys.
Can someone explain this to me. I really don’t get it.
delurker
I call out people with exclusive racial preferences on dating/hook-up sites. I am proud to say I got several to change their profiles. 🙂
delurker
It’s sad how lots of gaysians worship white guys and how lots of white guys say “NO ASIANS.” Kinda funny, too, but sad nonetheless.
James
@Aaron in Honolulu: Because he doesn’t find guys that look like him attractive.That is self loathing.I wound what he thinks when he looks in the mirror.I don’t think its racist for someone to only want to date people of there own race.But when people put that on profiles its like saying the other race is ugly and unattractive.That may not be what you are saying but that’s what it sounds like to people of that race.It’s just rude.
J. Bocca
So let me get this right, if an Asian dude wants to just fuck white guys then hes “self hating” but if a white guy just wants to fuck white guys then hes a “racist” Wow makes about zero sense to me. But Hey, also am I sexists too if I only wanna fuck dudes? Oh and were bombarded with female beauty left and right, in magazines, television, in basically any add, yet I don’t seem to be attracted to woman. Hmmm kinda de-bunks all of you who are saying “Oh we’re bombarded with white beauty so it messes up ethnic peoples minds” PULEASE stop making excuses. I will Eff only the people I’m attracted to and you can go eff off, thanks.
Brian Miller
No use arguing with racist douchebags over why they’re racist — they don’t understand why douche-ness is bad, because it flows through their veins.
delurker
All right people. Leaving aside whether the guy in #3 is a racist or self-hating or whatever, let me break it down why he’s a douchebag. Remember when we were growing up, our moms would say, “It’s not what you say, but how you say it”? Well that about sums up why he’s a db.
Yes, we are all entitled to our preferences but we can state them in a non-negative, non-douchebaggy way. “No fats or femmes” is a douchebag thing to say. If a person has a preference, for say, “in shape” or “masculine” guys, he can say that without putting down or explicitly excluding those who aren’t like that.
Remember, it’s all about HOW you say it!
blaque
I’m black and i don’t find white guys sexy at all… not all asian,latino,or blacks are sooo white washed that we can’t see the beauty in our own race.
LOL White Boys
I always think white guys who don’t date black guys must have really shrimpy little dicks. They come up painfully short between their legs, and they’ve grown up hearing how black guys all have giant members. Whether or not that’s just a dumb stereotype, they believe it. So they don’t wanna hook up with black guys because they don’t think they can measure up, and that once their pants come down it’ll be like putting a fun-sized vanilla tootsie roll next to a king size Snickers.
delurker
@J. Bocca: wow you are really stupid. like retarded + autistic + head injury stupid. sucks to be you. 🙁
Caleb Michaels
LOL, what a hilarious threads.
You all do realize you’re faggots right? There is nothing more hilarious than an alleged “ideal” white fag who thinks he’s the shit.
Newsflash; homos only make up 1% of the world’s population and you ALL are at the absolute bottom of the hierarchy.
Sorry!
Marcus
All my black gay brothers need to stop being snow queens.Who cares if a white guy doesn’t want to date you.You should stick with your brothers.We all know racial divide exits that’s why we have black gay pride celebrations.Stop chasing after white boys and you will feel better about yourself.
delurker
@Marcus: to be fair, this seems to be more an issue with azns. most black dudes i know can take or leave whites. azns seem to worship them.
kurt
y’all need to get a life n stop talkin about other people. this post is me. I’m not racist against asians. I jus don’t prefer to date them as well as black guys and mexican guys. I sometimes like mixes. but seriously get a life..
Little Kiwi
actually, Kurt, you’re wrong.
if you’re not into a person because of THEIR ETHNICITY then you have an unaddressed ISSUE with that ethnicity.
you idiots fucking suck – orientations are innate, concepts of attraction and beauty are entirely societal.
you’re all so arrogantly proud of your racist preferences.
your “opinions” are baseless and sociologically invalid – if you’re not into a person BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY then you have a prejudiced idea about that ethnic group..
fact.
deal with it or be seen as the mentally lazy idiots you are. you may not feel that you’re a “racist” but you are indeed a victim of racism in culture – you’ve bought the lies and have been a mediocre thinker in not challenging them.