What's really suprising is the arrogance of Democrat shills and Obamadolators who still think we're going to treat them civilly as they betray us. I’m pleased to see that lots of activists are treating the ideas of these shills with the contempt they deserve.

As Obama moves further and further to the right so will the shills. Today they’re in favor of a few more years of loss of pensions and benefits, a few more years of beatings and the occasional murder because of Clintons DADT. Tomorrow when Obama says no to socialized medicine they’ll go along with it. When He imposes austerity measures on working people and continues bailing out the rich retards that wrecked the economy they’ll sigh and tell us to take our medicine. And when GI’s and muslims continue to die as He plays god from Palestine to Pakistan they’ll beat the drum, wrap themselves in flags and say it’s for ‘national security’, which is exactly what both Bushes and Clinton said, and just as wrong.

And incidentally, Moag, we don’t care if you’re self-loathing or not. Deal with it on your own. What we don’t like is your sick attempt to delay fighting for our agenda for a new more years.

Instead of Moags delaying tactics we need a mass action approach opposed to and independent of the Democrats and Republicans to compel them to recognize full equality for the GLBT communities.

Perhaps some of you spoke too soon…

http://washingtonblade.com/the…..g_id=22644

With that said, I think it's hilarious how many think he's a friend of gays. He's not. But that doesn't make him an enemy either. He aligned himself with Hollywood who has a friendly relationship with gays. They kind of have to considering how many gays work in Hollywood. Obama courted gay voters and like McCain and Clinton does not support gay marriage. Nothing will change for gays under his administration.

Obama is in for a rude awakening and so are his legion of fans. He's privy to information that he never knew before regarding small things like "don't ask, don't tell", to larger and more important things like what's going on in Iraq.

If you watch closely you can already notice how he's changed.

That nonsense didn't warrant an eloquent response.

Blah, blah, blah, blah…

+ so forth.

that's *exactly* what w*yne wants.
selfish!
myopic!
shady!

kiss my well-shaped, yellow ass w*yne!
you are desperately blinded by pride.
you fear Black power!
you are jealous and disgruntled and you can't understand why gay rights aren't the first order of the day, every day.
you are typing yourself into a hole.
we are moving beyond race, but your bitterness will not allow you to come along.
you identified too closely with hillary and now you are stuck in an idealogical cul de sac.
ps
no one wants to marry your dropped ass!
stay out of the sun; your face is next!
sorry for the negativity.

DADT actually harmed gays and lesbians serving, I know because I was one of them.

While I will wait to see if/how Obama will follow through on his promises to the GLT etc. voters, I'm still cautious about any president that claims they will push for gay rights, after all his biggest job (and for any first term pres.) is to get reelected for another term… so that will definitely flavor his approach to pushing any agenda.

I would tell them that he, in accordance with over 200 retired miltiary officers, agrees that DADT MUST be done away with and that it MUST be done away with in a manner that makes sure that it works, which will require a plan and some time. I would tell them that if that can't take that time – which is totally understandable and terrible that they should have to – then they should either not join the military until it changes or should make plans to get out of the military if they cannot or will not wait.

I would tell them that history is made by those who keep their powder dry and live to fight on. That it goes to those who think things through.

I would tell them that the military is not the only place – not by a long shot – where life is tough and hard and ugly for gay people. That a fight must be fought all over our society, and that building support for your fights and coming up with a wholistic plan of action is a better stategy to winning than simply going for the quick-shot visceral.

I would tell them that this is how the world works. I would tell them that your enemies understand this and it is time that you did, too.

And that's just the kind of bullheaded thinking that leads to the "Exec Order now, fuck if it works" argument that you have spent all morning espousing…

And, either way, it sure makes you feel superior, don't it?

It's sure an easy substitute for thinking things through, ain't it?

It sure makes a good headline, don't it?

And, I might point out, that years of service does not, in and of itself, mean a Goddamn thing in terms of whether or not you are correct in your arguments let, alone whether or not you care about men and women in the services. There are tens of thousands of vets who don't want to see gays serve, and they would all claim that they know best because they served and because they have proven that they care about men and women in the services, unlike people like me who never served.

Nice to see you adopt the rhetoric of the gay haters out there!

You want that order. Period. Fuck what it means in real terms. Fuck that. Who cares? At least you would have your order. And then the next President would have to try it all over again.

But, you could give a rat's ass, as you want your headline, you want your Exec Order, and you don't give a fuck if it works, if it is greeted through massive military, Pentagon and public resistance, and thus, you don't care if it works at all. You just want that headline, baby! To say that an Exec order will "end discrimination now" is the height of ignorance and completey devoid of historical fact. No goverment orders "end discriminaton". They can, when properly done, counterbalance discrimination through agressive acts that force and reinforce integration.

As I said before, I hope you get your Order. I just hope that is accompanied by a plan that will make it work. You know, for the thousands of gays in the services that you claim that you and you alone care about.

And you can keep doing all the straw man arguments you want – from claiming Obama is flip-flopping to claiming that I am seeking consenus from the military (when I am most certainly am not, as I have pointed out REPEATEDLY). It is just you screaming at your keyboard, pal. So, what are you going to do when Obama does announce the change in a year or two? Denounce it? Praise it? Don't bother answering – as the only way that I could ever know what you will do would be for me to interact with you at that point in time, and I would rather chew barbed wire…

You want to sacrifice the good for the perfect. Only problem is, your view of "perfect" is false – even you admit it. You say that you agree, that after Truman's Exec Order, it took years to make real change. So, the net effect of Truman's order, in and of itself, was a headline. The bulk of real change was done through real work LATER. It didn't have to be that way. If Truman had done the heavy lifting that Ike ended up having to do (like Obama ended up having to do with Clinton's DADT bullshit), then history could have been a let different a lot quicker. How many blacks suffered in the armed services in the years following the great Exec Order but BEFORE Ike put his foot down? Want to see that again? seems like you do.

You seem to be happy with the headline approach. You claim to want to see something done to stop the harm against valiant gay men and women who are serving now, yet care only about the splash value of an Exec. Order, as if that would stop all manner of pernicious harm being brought on gays in the military in the ABSENCE of a PLAN!

Hey. I hope you get your headline. Me, I want to see substance.

Too bad so sad for them, huh?

That's ALL THAT IS BEING SUGGESTED HERE. Nothing else. No retreat. No flip-flop. Stop trying to create a straw man argument here and turn it into something that it is not.

I mean, I know that you served, but shoot-first-ask-questions-later doesn't apply to everything in life.

GET IT?

———

Joe, I know you will think I'm just being rude, but the reality is that you don't really have a true understanding of military culture. You are speculating about a lifestyle you know nothing about. The military is nothing but Rules and Regulations! More regs than you can imagine. As it stands now, DADT gives military leaders a standing order to continue to discriminate against gay service members. An Executive Order ending DADT would be the first step towards gay integration because it would remove the order to discriminate by basis of sexual orientation; but even after DADT ends, it will be DECADES before gay military service members totally "come out" or are open about their sexuality. And it's not because of fear of physical attack – believe it or not stuff like that is very rare. Moreover, it's because the entire military system is based on achieving higher rank. To get promoted, you have to be a "good soldier" and that means not making waves and doing your best to be a good troop – fit in and follow orders. That culture won't change for a VERY long time. If we wait for consensus, we will be waiting for forever, we absolutely should remove DADT to start the process! And that will never happen until we have a president with the political courage to act.