The defendants in this suit are scrambling in a desperate effort to distance themselves from their own campaign material, because so much of this material (urging voters to enact Proposition 8) was inflammatory and cruel beyond belief. Hak-Shing William Tam asked to be removed as a defendant, citing concerns that his personal safety would be jeopardized by the publication of his efforts. In fact, when one reviews the campaign material circulated by Tam at his church, the real reason for his being dropped from the suit becomes clear; Tam would have been forced to defend the following assertion, contained in a letter that he distributed to parishioners: “One by one, other states would fall into Satan’s hands. Every child, when growing up, would fantasize marrying someone of the same sex. More children would become homosexuals.”

If that disgusting smear does not constitute evidence of “animus”, I don’t know what does.

So Tam’s car has been vandalized? Does Tam have any idea of the number of times that vehicles belonging to gay persons have been vandalized (many gay persons refuse to display the rainbow decal on their bumpers, not because they are ashamed of being gay, but because they don’t want to mark their car as a potential target)? I know several gay men who have found words such as “Faggot!” smeared in lipstick across their paintwork. So Tam is afraid of being recognized on the streets? Does Tam have any idea of the number of times gay couples have been harassed and beaten up merely for holding hands on those streets, or visibly sharing affection on those streets? So Tam has received death threats on YouTube? As an activist for equal rights for gay persons, I have received abusive telephone calls, including calls in which the caller threatened to take my life!

But the best part of Tam’s reasoning is this: “I do not like the exposure of my history to people who are agnostic to me. In short, I do not like the burden of discovery and the privacy invasion associated with being a Defendant-Intervenor. [... ] I am tired and I want peace. I want peace to carry on my ministry and I don’t want to be indefinitely tied down with this case.”

Tam wants peace, because he has found that the process of defending his actions (promoting Proposition 8) is exhausting and time-consuming.

Oh poor, poor man!

PHILIP CHANDLER

1. If we’re winning – WHEN will we WIN?

2. We didn’t pass the Hate Crimes Bill – we held the defense spending hostage.

3. Public perception about LGBT people has changed because old people with old ideas have died, not because of anything WE did. (For reference racism is dying, too.) Credit TIME PASSING, not us.

4. Marching and protesting hasn’t changed anyone’s mind. If you think it has, please provide some EVIDENCE.

5. 90% of the LGBT movement has been about politics. That hasn’t produced anything yet. If you think we are going to WIN politically, please share. Please tell me WHEN.

Your response is EXACTLY what is WRONG with our movement. It’s all based on old ideas and the goal is “one of these days.” Well, for 90% of us, that’s just not good enough. So, you and the rest of the 10% that is actively involved in silly marches or political ass-kissing are on your own – UNTIL we are smart enough to figure out how to WIN.

We won;t win until we figure out HOW to WIN. Get it?

“1. We’ve never won a public vote on an LGBT issue.”
UMMMM – Washington just voted to give LGBT couples the Everything but Marriage law. But I’m assuming you’re talking strictly about marriage, because that’s the only thing we’ve never won by public vote. And yet, every time marriage goes up for a vote – we’re closer and closer to winning. California didn’t pass Prop 8 by a landslide – but a mere few percents. To say that this does not show progress – is, plainly, disingenuous. If you can’t see that as progress, you’re an idiot.

“2. We’ve never passed an LGBT Law in the US Congress.”
Have you heard of the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act (HCPA)? AND WE’RE CLOSER THAN EVER TO PASSING ENDA. EVERY YEAR WE HAVE SEEN GAINS. Again, if you can’t see this as progress, as evidence of what is working, you must be blind.

“3. We’ve spent 50 years and $2-3 billion dollars.

4. We’ve protested, marched, yelled and screamed for 50 years.”

For 3 & 4, see my 1 & 2 – PLUS, poll after poll has shown an increase in the acceptance of the lgbt community. We also continue to win fights in the courts granting us more rights every time.

“5. The majority of Americans believe we are “morally wrong.”
These people are ruled by their religion and are NOT BEING LOGICAL. You seem to think that if we just talk to them in the right way or go at this with a different angle they will just turn over and give us our rights. It’s not going to happen. People’s minds are changed by us being visible (you know, the marching, protesting, coming out to our families, etc.).

You want “smart” fighting? What makes you think that the avenues we’re taking aren’t smart? And don’t tell me because it’s not working. I’ve CLEARLY shown you how you’re wrong. The groups that have fought for our rights in the past have been filled with smart people and your comments reflect a true lack of understanding of the LGBT movement. It also demonstrates a unsettling disrespect for those that fought to give you the rights you enjoy today.

Are you some sort of socio-political genius? If so, I’m still waiting to hear what this smart idea is that is going to magically grant us all of our rights.

There is no one thing that will make us win and there is no one person that can just give us our rights. It is going to take a collaborative effort from every angle we have. It is going to take us all fighting for our rights… except you. You – please stay home and out of the way of everyone else.

Sorry, but MOST young people are not participating because the LGBT Movement is ineffective and stuck in the past. We’re not lazy. But, we’re smart enough to know you don’t use leftover tools from the 50s and 60s.

Welcome to 2010 Mr. Miller. The world has changed, you should, too. Calling people names (as you have done with me) is your only strategy. Give it up, already. We’re smarter than just “complaining and accusing.”

And you’re critiquing the effectiveness of others in the LGBT rights struggle, when you supported a do-nothing money pit organization and enthusiastically campaigned for a political homophobe?

For real?

It’s the Gen Xers who got marriage on the map in the first place, and it’s going to be the Gen Xers who will win the fight (for the most part) while the lazy Gen Yers whine about how it’s not easy enough for them and how there’s too much “fighting” involved.

Oh well, this Xer is ready to do what’s necessary.

I’ve actually thought about it a lot. I never said “guarantee,” I asked HOW do we WIN? What is the strategy for winning?

Like many others I am already involved locally and I used to give money to HRC. I was excited when Obama was elected – I worked hard for that, too. But, here we are. We can’t pass laws, we lose popular votes and nobody seems to have ANY idea how and when we can achieve our full equality.

I’m not complaining about anyone or anything, but I am suggesting there must be something we are missing. I want to work on something that will lead to our victory. Somehow we need to get the majority of America on our side. If we do, it’s game over.

BrianNYC, no single strategy guarantees a WIN. There are small WINs and bigger ones, local, state and national WINs. If you’re not willing to contribute without a guarantee, then I suggest you sit on your hands, feel sorry for yourself, and let the rest of us do what we can. If inaction is your preference, then stay inactive. I understand your frustration and hope it leads you to think of what issues are important to you —whether it’s politics, education, arts, etc., and whether it’s related to GLTB causes or not— and get involved. You’re obviously bright, and some cause out there could use a guy like you to lend a hand, a brain, and a perspective.
Think about it, please.

Lobbying doesn’t work. That’s what HRC wasted a half billion dollars on.

You claim our equality strategy is fighting. That’s ridiculous.

1. We’ve never won a public vote on an LGBT issue.

2. We’ve never passed an LGBT Law in the US Congress.

3. We’ve spent 50 years and $2-3 billion dollars.

4. We’ve protested, marched, yelled and screamed for 50 years.

5. The majority of Americans believe we are “morally wrong.”

So, where’s the progress?

It is clear that if we do something for 50 years and it doesn’t work, that maybe we should consider other solutions. I think the LGBT community has many smart people. I want “smart,” not more fighting. Fighting (as protesting and demanding) isn’t very smart. It’s kind of a default action. It’s also the easiest (and probably least effective) idea we have as a community.

We don’t have a “movement???????” We don’t have a “strategy?????”
Are you blind and deaf? do you live under a rock? or is your IQ really that low? I, dunno, maybe you’re one of those crazy hippies that lives in a tree and actually doesn’t own a tv, cell phone or ever have any contact with outside world.

Truthfully, though, it sounds to me like you’re nothing more than a troll whose out there on the message boards trying to convince the LGBT population that it’s hopeless and there’s nothing we can do. Then we can all just “stop fighting,” roll over and play dead. Yeah, that will work. WRONG! If you want to “win,” as you put it, you HAVE to fight and there is no other choice. Unless, of course, you’ve got something to bring to the table. Do you? Haven’t heard it yet and I doubt we will – because if you actually did have something, it would have been shared by now instead of just whining and urinating on the work that others are doing and have been doing that actually HAVE gained rights for the LGBT movement. That’s right – MOVEMENT.

Yes, we need bridge-builders or diplomats. But the fact is that most of us feel angry from all this because it’s a natural reaction even today, in 2010. People are losing money and healthcare because of lack of marriage rights; we can’t serve openly in tons of jobs including the military; anti-gay discrimination is still allowed in the USA; gay immigrants can’t bring over partners; and overall there are LOTS of gay kids who are harmed by living in the closet in anti-gay communities. These are very real reasons to be angry, and people must know and understand this.

I’m not going to FIGHT as you suggest. I think there must be a better way to handle the problem. We don’t have a MOVEMENT. We don’t have a STRATEGY. We don’t have a PLAN.

When that happens and we know HOW and WHEN we can WIN, I’ll participate. You can keep on fighting – it’s NOT working. I’m interested in winning.

But, your fighting doesn’t work. It doesn’t inspire anyone to change their minds and only irritates people.

I posted because I wanted to find our if anybody was actually trying to figure out how to WIN. Nobody was.

Your comments are not helpful. MOST young people are NOT participating because we want to win. We want to know how to win and when that will be. That requires thought and creativity – not fighting.

I’ve got a better idea – come up with one on your own – because until you present a better and viable option, all we’ve got is what we’ve got now and you’re, again, just wasting people’s time.

@BrianNYC – if you can’t figure out what is meant by “fighting,” please save us all the effort and just go home. You’re not helping anybody with your semantic games.

We are fighting by marching in the streets and being seen, we are fighting by getting out there on the streets and informing people about the issues, we are fighting by combating the uninformed messages and lies of the religious right (oh no, combat? another word I’m sure you’ll try and play semantics with?!?) we are out there fighting in the courts (even the cases that are not so high profile), we are out there working our butts off during the day at our day-job so that we can donate to our champions at night, and yes there are a great number of us who are having to physically fight off our attackers. There are any number of organizations out there that will tell you what it is that you can do to help “fight” for our rights. If you don’t want to call it “fighting,” fine, but don’t sit there, play semantics games and then sit on your perch as if you’re holier than though.

Still waiting…

Because those god fearing xtians who backed up their hatred for African-Americans on scriptures in the bible afterall … YEs THESE regular good xtian folks are forever memorialized as rabid vicious racist when viewed through a 21st Century lens …

It is Exactly what is going to happen to those opposed to Gay Equality … in the end. And mark my words:: those opposed to Gay EQuality are smart enough to know that you don’t want to end up on camera for posterity forever and ever saying the things they believe – because they’ve seen the old news reels too!

“If your attack is going too well, you’re walking into an ambush.”
-Infantry Journal

Actually, the plaintiffs want to overturn it and the court has yet to rule (it just started hearing the case today), so nobody knows what the court “wants.” Are you suggesting that the court should ignore the plaintiff’s right to file a lawsuit?

Proposition Eight made a change to the California State Constitution. The lawsuit is being filed in federal court arguing that Proposition Eight was motivated by bias and is therefore illegal under federal law.

Just because the voters pass something doesn’t mean it is OK. If, for example, they pass a law in Utah requiring all residents to join the Mormon Church, the argument that “the people have spoken” will get you nowhere – the U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to all U.S. citizens regardless of what state they live in.

Now, if this is still too much for you, should this require too much energy and effort to you, then step back and away.

I’m not old enough to remember Stonewall, but well old enough to have been fully impacted by the AIDs crisis wherein the gay community fought alone for their very lives; wherein we organized volunteer programs just to help folks eat by delivering them meals when no one else would draw close enough to a sufferer to assist them; wherein we even organized volunteers to go to the homes of those infected to walk, feed and clean their pet because no one else stood beside them and their pets were ALL they had for company. Brave men an women took to the streets with only whistles as their weapons, to bring attention to the fact that they were dying!

Personally, I don’t have a lot of time for whiners who actively look for excuses not to participate, rather then help to discover new solutions to save the next generation. If all you can do is look for a means to walk away and roll over, then you’ll either win no rights at all or you will enjoy the fruits of the labor of those generations who fought before you–as you already are.

The truly frightening thing is that religious fundamentalists, you will come to see, will always be fighting against you, wishing to erode any right that comes your way, ready to strip you bare of all human dignity, ready beat you to a bloody pulp, and your generation will have no one who knows how to organize and work towards your rights, because you’ve been shifting your energies to find a way not to work for what comes your way.

“Entitlement” is an illusion, there is no such thing, and that lesson will be one that comes with great pain and a very steep cost.

That’s what I thought. Thanks for saving me the time and effort.

Prop 8 here’s the link: http://www.queerty.com/the-pro…..-20091218/
======
Seriously. I need a law degree and lots of time to understand what was being said there. Thanks for pointing it out tho to everyone.

There is NO movement. Chill.

After Obama (8 Yrs) there will be a Republican President and majority (8 Yrs). In 2024 we’ll have “hope” again with another Democrat. Maybe we’ll prevail then. (We’ve done this before).

So, chill until 2024. You’ll be 40-ish by then. Don’t waste your time now – enjoy yourself. Look for a movement to start again in 14-15 years.

I think it a very appropriate to ask HOW WE CAN WIN?

I know many people are “fighting” and I also know we’ve been fighting for 50 years. Apparently all this fighting isn’t working.

I also know we’ve invested a lot of money in organizations like HRC and political parties – mostly Democrats I also know how excited we all were about Obama and now it feels like Clinton all over again.

I think we have an amazing community of very smart, creative and even crafty people. Therefore, I suggest we must be missing something or we’re not thinking hard enough.

From all the polling data I’ve seen posted on this site I don’t believe most Americans are against us. I just don’t. Sure, in NYC it’s not the same as Texas, but I just think the majority of the people are over religion and are not offended by homosexuality.

I want to know how to win. Somebody must be working on it. I asked HRC and I received an email that said: “We must stay the course.” I replied and said “what’s the course?” They never responded. That’s when I stopped giving them money.

So, please don’t attack me and suggest I am “apathetic,” because I am just the opposite. I want to win. I am willing to do whatever it takes. What is the strategy? What’s the Plan?

I’m sure there are many young(er) people just like me that want an answer to those simple questions before they participate.

Thank you for reading this. I hope you understand my frustration, as well as my desire.

Anyway, Keep up the good work.

Aside: If u posted on a more fun thread, I would make a complimentary comment… but it’s not appropriate for this thread and your demeanor. Just my hunch.

@No. 51 · Bryan
Here’s a dude who is trying to make things better for LGBT peeps in his own way. I would go into further detail but I think MackMichael has covered most of it. I admire your energy and your gumption. I can feel your frustration (and youthful demeanor) but I think you need to channel it and seek out avenues of support. If they don’t meet your criteria, then switch to another one. NYC is pretty big, I’m sure there are tons of different groups with different strategies that are accessible.