It would probably soothe some peoples' nerves (and inflame others) if you added, "we think the world's tired of seeing Palestine use its weapons, too." Because I think that's what you meant, right? That the whole world is devastated by the conflict over there, and we all wish it would end?

Interesting that Mr. Lucas refers to Palestine as a "country." Last time I check, the Palestians were still waiting for a state, as they have been ever since before Zionists routed them from their land, burned their farms, and sent those they didn't murder into exile. One might wonder how long someone like him, who is so concerned about gay rights in Muslim countries, would feel living as a Palestinian in the occupied territories. Apparently, Muslim persecution = bad; Jewish persecution = a-ok. Disgusting.

Mr. Lucas is yet more proof that Christians and Muslims have no monopoly on bigotry, intolerance and hatred. It's people like him that make me proud to be an atheist, if ashamed to be a gay man.

I like the part where he says that "Islam... is preaching war" as though it were some singular entity. Hypocrite.

When will you guys learn? If you don't support Israel unconditionally, you're an anti-Semite. Period. Now go start a pogrom.

do people actually take what you say seriously?

really, queerty, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

mr, lucas is right,
you can be gay in israel.in arab country they kill u for being gay.who ever support the arabs should be stoned to death like any arab gays,

When the Phelps put "God Hates Fags" on poster boards, look at the reactions those three words have incited. Would you say those were just three little words?

BTW, if YOU are tired of seeing Israel using its weapons, feel free to say so -- that's your right. But don't use words such as "the world's tired of seeing Israel use its weapons" unless you're absolutely certain everyone feels the same way as you do. It's elementary, my dear Queerty.

Let me say it like this

In any civilized country you could have said what you said in your earlier post without being attacked by conservative, pro-israel warmongers (excusez le mot)
Thats what we call being openminded and grant the right of everybody to say what they want ( as long as they dont offend or attack people by it)

And besides that, Michael's predictment of what would happen to you in any other middle eastern country just shows what a bigot it is.
There are gayblogs in muslim, middle eastern countries.
There are gayclubs in muslim middle eastern countries.
There are gay singers in muslim middle eastern countries.

But i guess all of them walk around without arms and severely injured or dead like zombies. (maybe a new concept for a gay horror movie)

If you don't support Israel unconditionally, you're an anti-Semite. Period.
i love democracy in Western countries...
and Lebanon this summer? and all those killed civilians (just compare figures, 2006 has been the worst year for palestinians)? easy to be gay or a women in Israel? why don t you ask what s the situation for arab Israelians in this beautiful democratic country? all the boundaries they re facing every day to move from a place to another, to get jobs, to buy houses, to get married with who they want, etc...and i m not even mentionning health care and educational expenses from the govt towards other communities than the Jewish one within Israel...
and ML is shouting that's a democracy?
the proper word would be here : republic theocracy, no?
did queerty say they wanted to delete Israel from world maps? no, of course! never!
people are sick IN GENERAL about wars, and what s going on in this part of earth. this has lasted for too long! Israelians may be pro peace but the persons governing their country are so full of hate!
ML has once again proved us he s more ambitious than clever (since when can you succeed in politics with only your dick?!?), and he has more future in cosmetic surgery (any room left for botox?) than in a carreer at the UN....
maybe someone should give him history lessons (mostly the period from 1948, creation of Israel, until nowadays, with big courses on 1967 and all the invasions Israelians have made around their border since then) instead of improving his English...i can do it, if asked politely...

Why is any criticism of the STATE (read: govt) of Israel and/or it's policies interpreted as anti-Semitism?? No apologies for free speech! I love how people say they support free speech whilst condemning someone for exercising said right. Get a very large grip please.

zaza wants to offer a history lesson with "a big course" on 1967? So let's start with a little pre-history to the 6 day war: In May 67, Nasser demanded that the UN contingent be withdrawn from Egypt's frontier with Israel. Shortly thereafter, he closed Israel's access to the crucial port of Eilat. Irak, Syria, Jordan and Egypt agreed to a military assistance treaty and mobilized their armies. Encircled by a united Arab front, Israel decided on a pre-emptive attack. Considering these facts, it's simply stupid to brand Israel as the aggressor or its actions as an "invasion".

Maybe zaza's lesson about 1967 will also include the Khartoum Resolution, adopted on September 1st 1967, where heads of state from 8 Arab states, involved in the conflict with Israel, resolved the "Three Nos" with respect to Israel: NO peace with Israel, No recognition of Israel, NO negotiations with Israel. Surprised that people with responsibility for Israel's security got a little nervous?

And as for "arab Israeliens" as zaza calls Arab Israelis, they have precisely the same rights as other Israelis. In fact, an Arab Israeli just joined the Israeli cabinet three days ago. Can you think of one Arab country with a Jewish cabinet minister?

So, zaza, if you were to read a little history, maybe you could come up with an actual opinion rather than a couple of paragraphs of emotional vomit.

And to Bo18, who waxes about gayblogs, gay singers and gayclubs in Arab countries: I have travelled widely in the Middle East and would greatly appreciate the address of only one gay club in either Teheran, Damascus, Cairo, Khartoum or Jeddah. Or is Bo thinking about the "Queen Boat", a disco moored on the banks of the Nile in Cairo where in 2002 54 gay guys were arrested during a raid and subsequently sentenced to jail terms for "habitual debauchery" and "contempt of religion"? That's not my idea of a fun night out. And it's also not old history: Some of these guys are still in jail.

I am surprised that you guys are all willing to criticize Israel's security policies while you are all willing to overlook one stark and tragic fact (which Michael actually points out over and over again): The civil rights situation for LGBT people in all Arab and many Muslim countries is simply the worst in the world. And we have nothing to say about this?

It is true that Israel as a state is more pro-gay than most countries, including ours. And muslim countries by and large are violently anti-gay. However, I applaud Mr. Belonsky on his ability to see a larger picture and say "enough is enough."

I really don't read his comments as anti-semitic, one can certainly be frustrated with a country's policies and government without hating its people.

You know what I'm tired of hearing. Porn stars who think they know everything about world politics.

Lucas should stick to what he is good at, that is filming hot guys sucking and fucking.

Everyone should have a right to there opinion, but we don't have to listen to that opinion.

Instead of labeling Scott's comments as insane, you might have given rational rebuttal to them.

To me, he makes perfect sense.

You said that the world is tired of seeing Israel use its weapons.

That strongly implies you want to see Israel not use its weapons.

Hamas wants to establish an Islamic theocracy under Sharia law in the area now Israel.

Sharia says that gays are to be killed.

Scott said that if your desire to see Israel not use its weapons were "carried to its logical conclusion in the real world (that) would lead to additional harsh persecution of gay people in the Middle East."

It seems to me that is correct. Can you explain how it is not?

My brother left Rome last summer to go to the Middle East and help underpriveleged Palestinian Arabs. One night he was walking in Jerusalem and an Arab who mistook him for a Jew stabbed him to death. He was also gay and I wonder if that had anything to do with it.

Why is it that any time someone makes a statement about Israel's actions/reactions/positions that they're suddenly anti-Israel? Even more so, why does it mean the person is ignoring the violent outlook of many Middle Eastern countries?

"For our part, we think the world's tired of seeing Israel use its weapons, but what do we know?"

It's a statement that could just as easily be made about the U.S. or Britain or too many other nations. At the present it's Israel who is threatening to use NUCLEAR WEAPONS to PRE-EMPTIVELY strike Iran. Anyone who is concerned with their own fate would be wary of such overblown aggression. Paint it as a measure of security if you must (Iran is as full of shit as Saddam Hussein when it comes to weapons claims), but this show of force could have global repercussions more serious than "anti-Israel" statements.

Didn't see the post yesterday but reading through it now I see you said offensive things beyond the "one little line." Your writer also said about Michael Lucas "thanks for respecting our country so much, but we suspect he doesn't love it as much as Israel. " I have a Master's in Sociology and my specialty is Ethnic Prejudices. The claim by Americans that Jewish-Americans have greater loyalty to Israel than the US is a common form of anti-Semitism. It's on a level with saying that all homosexuals are child abusers. The people who say it really believe it, and it really does reflect their bigotry. Your site has not exactly crowned itself in glory by printing that.

Isn't the writer of the story Jewish? Why all this fuss?

I think people are just frustrtated with anti-Israel gays, since it's totally true that Israel is not only pro-gay, but the ONLY country in the entire region where you can be "out" in any sense (let alone the Western one) without losing your liberty, or, most likely, your life.

Has nothing to do with geopolitics.But about time these fags woke up about the Aram world.

Post number 16 by Steve shows the importance of taking one's responsibility as a publisher seriously. Steve is refering to an article published last week in the Times of London claiming that Israeli military sources said they had a plan to attack Iran's nuclear installations with nuclear bombs. The article was calculated to inflame anti-Israeli sentiment in Britain. Its author has a history of publishing such things as does the Times of London. Think about it. If the Israeli military had a plan like that, why would they tell it to a reporter from the Times of London first? Israeli leadership considers the Times of London to be like the National Enquirer and normally won't even stop to comment on its articles but this time they did have a top military official say that the report was fraudulent. Yet we have Steve making comment #16 as though the report were as verifiable as Bush's plan to escalate the war in Iraq.

Supposing you were reading another blog and saw "The world is tired of homosexuals defending their right to exist"?

That's what appeared on qweerty about Israel.

Think before your write, please.

Whatever...

Even if Israel is more pro-gay than some Arab countries, it's not the end of it. It's not just about gay rights, but human rights.

It's a selfish position as a gay man to consider that Israel is "ok" simply because they tolerate me.

Da says "it's not just about gay rights, but human rights". Would Da care to compare the state of rights in the following areas in Israel and any Arab state of his choosing: Women's rights, right to vote, right to assemble, right to free speech, freedom of the press, right to due process.

Do the exercise, then think again.

Yeah, love that remark from "da" saying that it's not just about gay rights but human rights. Is he saying that gays aren't human and therefore, human rights are a separate category? I know, I know, people want their right to criticize Israelis for making Arabs in the Gaza Strip go through security checkpoints. Just how brilliant does one have to be to understand that if the Gazans renounced all violence against Israel, Israel would have no need for security checkpoints? This is not an issue with lots of moral grey areas. Israel is sincere in wanting peace. Hamas is sincere in wanting to destroy Israel. It's so sincere, it has that destruction written into its charter. Also in the Hamas charter is a vow to establish an Islamic theocracy where Israel now exists. Girls, when was the last time you checked on gay fun in an Islamic theocracy? Gay people shouldn't seek to enable Muslims who want such an arrangement; it's a betrayal to the poor gay people who happen to be born in Muslim societies.

It's true that Muslim propaganda holds certain naive Westerners in its thrall, and it appears that this site's writer suffers from that disease. Israel can not take any defensive action against hostile enemies without being criticized for taking it. Meanwhile in Iraq today, Sunnis blew up a Shiite mosque and that sort of thing has become some common in Iraq that nobody especially comments on it. There are no Muslim leaders urging for UN condemnations of the blowing up of the mosque, et cetera. Israel recently announced plans to build a mosque at its largest airport so that Muslim travelers would have a place to pray. But can you imagine if Israel for whatever reason were to BLOW UP A MOSQUE? Even in Lebanon when Israel was engaged in a war against Hezbollah (which wants to destroy Israel and was and is amassing rockets to do exactly that) and Hezbollah was conducting military operations out of mosques, Israel did not blow up any mosques. But can you imagine if it did, even once? Why does the Sunni vs. Shiite blowing up of mosques in Iraq not receive the kind of international attention that an Israeli attack on a mosque would receive? It's that good old Muslim propaganda, which this site's writer, alas, has bought hook, line and sinker. There's nothing to negotiate with an opponent who says he wants to destroy you. People interested in learning more regarding the truth about Islam should go here: http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/

Israel actually díd bomb a mosque in Lebanon.
(and churches for that matter, but in that case it was a mistake they say)

What I read here is alot of ignorance, prejudices and just stupid, incorrect, untrue remarks about both the arab world and israel (which is actually part of the arab world, if you ask some israelis)

People tend to exaggerate the homophobia in the middle east.
But I walked around in Casablanca, Tanger, Marrakech, Tunis, Beirut and Amman etc. without being harassed.
I stayed in gay-hotels went to gayparties and walked around as a queen.
And I'm still alive and I still have all my limbs.
According to some here this cannot be true. I should have been lynched, killed, executed, attacked, harassed, arrested, punished etc in all the countries
But that just shows that they dont know caca about that region and probably only go to Hurghada and Eilat when they visit the middle east.

Hey, BO18! With your "People tend to exaggerate the homophobia in the Middle East." Where were you when the Ayatollah al-Sistani issued his fatwa calling for gays to be killed in the "severest way of killing"? You went to gay parties, huhn? In Dubai last year, police raided a gay party; the men were thrown in jail and given forced hormone injections. I love that you want to trumpet Tunisia as a center of tolerance of gays. The practice of homosexuality is illegal in Tunisia and no gay rights exist. The Tunisian government tightly censors the internet and in addition to blocking sites containing political opposition, Tunisia also filters pornography and gay-related content. Take your ridiculous bullshit and shove it.

Andrew might have considered issuing a clarification of his position in response to Mr. Lucas' complaint.

It's true, for instance that both Hezbollah and Hamas officially call for the destruction of Israel. Israel has no such massive ill-will against the areas those groups populate and if the people populating them would accept Israel's existence, renounce violence, and organize for prosperity, there would be peace. The thing is, they don't WANT peace with Israel. The want Israel removed. The text books used in Palestinian Arab schools don't even show Israel on the map.

It's also true that Israel offered to hold peace talks with Lebanon and that Lebanon refused, saying it would be the last country to ever sign a peace treaty with Israel.

It's a question of deciding where the onus for bringing about peace lies. There's more than a little truth to this: If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be peace; if the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel.

The very sad truth is that because the Israeli/Arab conflict inflames passions the way it does, questions of gay rights in those territories are virtually ignored on global scale. The Muslim Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have no regard whatsoever for gay rights . . . in fact, they believe they have an Allah-mandated duty to kill gay people. Israel is tolerant of Palestinian gays to a limited extent, conditioned largely by the tenacious hatred of the Arabs against the Jewish Israelis. Were there peace, Israel would at least have more leeway for accepting Palestinian gays as asylum cases. Meanwhile, virtually nobody talks about the issue. It is a crying shame that the gay media in the US doesn't do more to call attention to the matter. Trust me; there are plenty of people who will continue the argument about Israel and Gaza. Let's show some solidarity with our gay brethren in that part of the world, and not let their plight get buried under the broader conflict.

the qweerty writer's remark, noted by Maura Collins in these comments above,

"thanks for respecting our country so much, but we suspect he doesn't love it as much as Israel. "

Is beneath all contempt. Hitler similarly encouraged his populace to think of Jews as being disloyal to the country, though they had served in the German army during WWI.

Michael Lucas was correct to call you on this; your fatuous, unacceptable response confirms that his character is morally superior to yours.

Let us remember that Queerty Editor Andrew is a nice Jewish boy who, in his haste, most definatley phrased his comments the wrong way. Blog sites like Queerty are more a stream of consiousness than a long-lead magazine where every word is fact checked, edited, re-written and approved by multiple editors. Andrew's all on his own there... let's cut him some slack. He's not anti-semetic, he is pro gay comunity and desperately in need of a couple of assistants. The boy works 7 days a week , 10+ hours a day to make this thing happen and could make more money working at Starbucks . I appreciate his efforts - even if the only result is to get people to talk about the issues. I'm sure everyone who reads this site does as well.

We tend to agree with you, The LGBT community by its very nature should be more sympathetic to those who find themselves subjected to the harsh and often unjustified scorn of racism and bigotry. Thank You for bringing this to our attention Michael Lucas, it means a lot to both of us!

Sincerely, Muscle Lover & Twink Fan
www.onguys.com

To Jono, #31 above: Just as there are gay people with internalized homophobia who go around denouncing homosexuality and urging other to deny us our rights, there are people born into Jewish families and they nonetheless have internalized prejudice against Jews. People with these internalized prejudices against the groups to which they in some way are part tend to be the most vociferous in their bigotry. Think of Ted Haggard. Andrew may have "phrased his comments the wrong way" but did not redeem himself in his responses when given a chance. The amount he is paid to post his drivel has nothing to do with it. Like, if he were paid one million dollars a day and wrote the things he did, they wouldn't be excusable but because he isn't paid that much they are? Puh-leeeeeeeze. There is a self-loathing Jew named Norman Finklestein who gets a lot of attention from the Arabs and the KKK by saying that the Holocaust is "a hoax." He's earned a lot of money off of his books but he isn't any more correct in what he says than is Andrew. If you understand the concept that a man who in reality is gay nonetheless suffers internalized homophobia and spreads anti-gay propaganda as widely as he can, you understand that there can be Jewish persons engaging in the same class of activity. There's no acceptable excuse for it whatsoever.

You, Number 31, Jono:

ALL IN TO UNCLE TOM'S CABIN!!!!!

Three cheers for minorities who contribute to their own oppression!!!!!!

Andrew is not Uncle Tom nor is does he suffer from internalized anti-semitism. You all should know better to judge someone by one comment whether accidental truly believed. I would like to think that Andrew, like all of you, are more than one comment but the sum of a lifetime of actions. Cast stones, kids... keep casting stones.

"Jewish" and "Israeli" are not the same thing. Some of Israel's worst enemies were born to Jewish families. There's one whole group of Jewish religious nuts that think Israel's existence is not legitimate because when, in their view, "God" is ready for the Jews to have a nation, he will send a new Messiah to lead them. Hitler would simply have found out who had so much as one drop of Jewish blood and he would have killed anybody who did. Hezbollah's leader Nasrallah has more than once said that he wishes he could gather all the Jews in the world together at once in Israel so as to be able to kill them all at once. What kind of a human being . . . Jewish or not . . . wants to go on record as saying that Israel shouldn't defend itself against such an enemy?

@ No. 27 (BO19)

no need to lower yourself to calling names or something.
Cant you have a civilized conversation? Or is that too much to ask?

If you could read properly, you would have noticed that I said that people tend to exaggerate. I never said that there werent any homophobic laws or practices.

People kind of forget that law-enforcement in most arab countries isn't like law-enforcement in the EU.
First of all, in the Middle East they have class-justice.
If you're middle or upper class the chances that you will get arrested or harassed are very small. It is a different thing if you belong to the peuple or lower class.

North-african and some middle eastern governments (note the difference here) tend to tolerate gay-centres and or activities in the main areas of the countries (hence my examples of Tunis, Casa etc etc)
When I walked the Beirut Marathon I was very happy to see a stand of a gayrights movement ( a rather large stand actually) handing out refreshments etc.
IDAHO is being observed in Beirut and Casablanca.
This in countries where the old law-system still prohibits homosexuality. (or to be more precise, acts of homosexuality)

It is sad to see that both regions have such a weird, polarized, prejudiced view of each other.
And with people like Michael Lucas or for instance commenter No27 that will not change in the near future.

So @ comment No27. First read, think and after you done that start to write. And without insults. It would help you alot. Really it would

BO18: If YOU would read carefully, you would see that I called you no names. I said that you should take your bullshit and shove it. And I still say that to you. I don't accept that the US doesn't give its gay citizens full legal equality and I'm not about to accept that in other countries either. Besides, the controversy around Andrew's original post involved Israel's defense against its toughest and geographical enemies. Hamas and Hezbollah both want to impose Sharia law on their own lands AND WHERE ISRAEL IS NOW. They both favor killing gays as a means of eliminating homosexuality from society. Human rights within a society are not negotiable, and you'll excuse me if I put an emphasis on the importance of speaking up for the civil rights of gay people. I repeat; take your bullshit and shove it.

@ comment no11 (Mitch)

In Beirut you have Acid, XOM, Wolf and BO18. And the gaybeach. Dunkin'Donuts in Central Beirut is the heart of the local gayscene. From there the local gaycommunity spreads out along the bars and clubs.
(the female manager of Dunkin'Donuts started an antigay policy but that is reversed now)

In Marrakech you have Whitelounge and Pacha has gayparties.
Marrakech is a very gay(friendly) city. Checking in with your partner at a hotel is no problem, and if they do object you can complain to the manager.

In Martil (Morocco) you can go to Kabilah. (in the summer its occupied by the royal family, no chance of getting in)
Agadir (also Morocco) is one big gay resort. (but normal moroccan gays dont tend to visit it cuz they dont want to be approached by european tourists who think they're prostitutes). Jimmy's is a popular club in Agadir
Casa has a gayscene as well. I think Maroceve.com lists some parties and bars in Casa that mainly cater to gays.

I have never been to Jeddah, Khartoumn and Teheran (last 2 cities I do not really count as Middle East. I tend to stick to semite, arab countries)

In Hammamet (Tunisia) you have the Eurobar.
In Tunis itself (the capital) you have gaycafes (I still have to find a club)

I have always avoided Cairo, Dirty, unfriendly and too busy.
If you want a more relaxed gay environment visit the Siwa oasis or Alexandria.

Telling me to take my ridiculous bullshit and shoving it up my arse is still offensive. Or is that, according to you, a civilized way of having a conversation?
Cant you learn it?

I never said that we have to compromise our rights in arab countries.
I just said that people tend to exaggerate everything.
My first commented was regarding the total exaggeration of gaypunishments according to Michael Lucas.
For me the comments of Michael Lucas are just as bad as the comments made by islamic, orthodox relgious warmongers who say that all gays are walking aids-bombs who want to undermine the state.

I never said that Hezbollah or Hamas are homofriendly or anything like that. I also never said that we should forget that both movements are anti-gay.
So I dont know what you're babbling about.
And to correct you a bit. Hezbollah (that is working with a large Christian party) has let go of its aim to turn Lebanon into a Sharia-governed state. It wants to govern its own shia-community with the sharia.

BO18, please. Go to the Gaza Strip, walk around "like a queen" and then report back to us about your experiences. Until you have done that, take your bullshit and shove it.

Homosexuality in Morocco is illegal according to article 489 of the Penal Code and can be punished with anything from 6 months to 3 years imprisonment and a fine of 120 to 1200 Dirhams.

""" mitch says:
Da says "it's not just about gay rights, but human rights". Would Da care to compare the state of rights in the following areas in Israel and any Arab state of his choosing: Women's rights, right to vote, right to assemble, right to free speech, freedom of the press, right to due process.
Do the exercise, then think again. ""

Ok, I'll be the first to admit I'm not versed enough in the middle east question, still I'll get to that a minute...but my general argument was this : I'm not down with the idea of guilt-triping gays and expect that they ALL should support Israel simply because the country is considered pro-gay. I feel that the middle east question is a separate question.

As a person, I also said that what matters most to me is human rights, which include gay rights. It's like this : if as a man you live in a country where life's made easy for you, but women are treated like crap, and you go on thinking you're safe, then you're the biggest fool of all - because your liberties are not protected in such a context. It's the same for gays in Israel.

Now in regards to the specifics you asked me, yes there are great abuses that take place in some Arabic countries when it comes to women rights and etc - and believe me as a fervent pro-feminist it upsets me like you wouldn't believe. But I'm also aware that there are some economical /political circumstances (some of which caused by the countries themselves, and some *facilitated* by the conflict with Israel and the position of our own government) that allow those extremist-based abuses to flourish and continue.

Those are extremely complex questions that are not just black & white and let's-blame-it-on-islam kind of deal.

I personally think that when you want to be part of the solution (and if it's what you truly aspire to be) you have to take all of those things in consideration; have a philosophical approach if you will..and think about what is best towards opening people's minds and bringing them together.

Like, what is taking place in this thread is divise..the way some people try to scold Andrew for his choice of words is divise, the way fingers are waving in all directions is divise..and most of it is greatly disingenous and unproductive. And it's not what will help give our fellow gay man/woman/human more rights in the middle east.

Guys, guys dont you get it?

I never said that there are no problems at all. I only said that people shouldn't exaggerate everything.
So you dont have to mention that I have to go to Jeddah or Gaza. I know those people there have some major issues.
I just want you to keep those issues to that region. Casablanca isn't Gaza and Gaza isn't Casablanca.

@ No.42 (Sam)
I kind of figured that out already and already mentioned it in one of my previous posts.
But under the current king gay-prosecution is nihil. Only prostitutes get arrested (and released).
Independent magazines can report about homosexuality and plead for gayrights. The Moroccan society is changing.
Too bad that nobody notices that.

@ BO19

You're just a sad, sad person without any IQ or values.
You cant keep a conversation civil. So please get lost or whatever.
Just stay in your trailer park ( since I guess thats where you got your way of talking from)

Here's an interesting CNN link.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/02/ime.gorani/

CNN explores what it is like to be gay in the middle east. All I know is that for all our problems, we are very lucky to be living in the West when it comes to civil liberties and personal safety.

BO18:

You must be well hung . . . . like Saddam. Take your bullshit and shove it.

DA, #43, is delusional for thinking that if you could somehow change Western policies, you'd get the Muslims to come on around. The Koran divides the world into the Islamic regions (Dar al-Salaam) and the "infidel" regions (Dar al-Harb). The "infidel" regions are seen as places to be conquered and dominated. In India in the years 1000 - 1200, Muslims invaded out of Arabia, pillaging Hindu temples, killing millions and forcing the others to convert to Islam. That is how that filthy excuse for a "religion" arrived in India. US policy didn't influence it much. And you should read the history of the Barbary War.

You, BO18:

Have you ever heard of staying on topic?

The initial issue here was not Morocco.

It was 1) whether Israel is right to defend itself against enemies sworn to wiping it off the map and:

2) what the fate of the gay people in the area now Israel would be were Israel's enemies to succeed.

The Palestinian Arabs regularly practice "honor killings" against gays. They have announced their plans to establish an Islamic theocracy where one now finds Israel.

So if you say you are tired of Israel using its weapons, you're saying that you would not lift a finger or say a word to stop Palestinian Arabs from establishing an Islamic theocracy where Israel now is and carrying out anti-gay "honor killings" there.

Take your bullshit and shove it.

BO18: I'm inclined to join the clammoring for you to take your bullshit and shove it but would like to give you a chance to put your money where your ass is. Before I do, though, I want to say that you a misrepresenting the situation of gays in Muslim countries. The areas where you describe having seen gay cafes and such are small neighborhoods that amount to European outposts. The Muslim governments need the European connections because without them, their economies would be more belly-up than they are. So with gritted teeth they tolerate the European ways in (insulated) European outposts. In the rest of the area of those countries, though, gay people not only have no rights; they have no legal recourse when they are discriminated against, beaten and of course, killed. With that said, can you provide links to gay websites run, written and published within any of these countries you have been praising. Tunisia? Jordan? Lebanon? Please don't give us gay sites in Arabic being run out of London, Paris or New York. Give us links to gay sites that cover the gay life in Tunisia for a starter. Here's your chance. If you can't come through, then maybe you really should take your bullshit and shove it!

Sagghabhat Singh above should have been more specific in his translation of the Koranic division of the world Dar el-Salaam means "House of Peace" and describes the areas where Muslims dominate. Dar el-Harb means "House of War" and signifies those areas where "Kafir," (infidels) are in the majority. It is called the "House of War" because Muslims who have pledged their faith to Allah and his prophet (piss be upon him) are supposed to make war against the kafirs until they either convert to Islam or at the very least allow themselves to be passively submissive to Muslims. The very word "Islam" means submission. We aren't talking about bedroom play here either. We're talking about what's in the Koran, word for word.

Sagghabhat Singh says:
"DA, #43, is delusional for thinking that if you could somehow change Western policies, you'd get the Muslims to come on around. The Koran divides the world into the Islamic regions (Dar al-Salaam) and the "infidel" regions (Dar al-Harb). "

Well as I said, the situation in the middle east is all too complex to be reduced to the Islam question. Yes, it's certainly a huge factor, however certain political and economical factors have to be *in place* to allow those extremists factions of Islam to operate and abuse. The first victims of it? the local populations themselves.

I think if one wants to hate the Mulsium and cite historical facts to justify their hate, that is very easy to do. I won't even try to talk you out of it... Me I'm much more interested in how we can go about tackling the problem at the source and making things better in the long run.

Ie: How as a gay man living in North America do I make things easier for Middle easterners to make changes in their countries? : Look at the situation in its globality, and make changes across the board (including the way we treat the Middle east question from an international perspective; and the way we include or not Arabic gays in the discussion in our community).

In the CNN link Jono posted, I noted two great passages:

1) -"Homophobia used as a weapon: And nowhere more than in Iraq is homophobia becoming a socio-political weapon that is making life for gay men nearly impossible. We spoke to an Iraqi blogger. He told us radical religious militias are attacking homosexuals, adding that "even that thin layer of security [gay men] once had is now gone."

What this is, is concrete evidence that war and political instability directly affects gay and human rights..Things went from bad to worse in Irak, instead of the contrary, because of the US involvment in the war.

2-"According to Scott Long, of Human Rights Watch, when governments crack down on homosexual gathering places, they do it for political rather than purely moral reasons"

Again, it seems like the surge of homophobic crack downs is not necessarly due to Islam, but rather the "political recuperation" of it. - In other words, whereas governments probably couldn't care less about gay men meeting each other and partying before, now they have to compose with growing extremists political forces (not unlike the right in the US, mind you) that forces them to do these shows of public gay arrests. How to remedy it? of course, it's denouncing vehemently but also looking at what allows the extremists to flourish in the first place.

Look, Da, #51, as any ex-Muslim who has escaped the insanity can tell you, the root of the problem is the Koran. Mohammed in his own day bullied people into following his religion and he bullied them under pain of death. There weren't any conditions allowing "the extremists to flourish in the first place" then and that isn't the essential reason they continue now. Bush is awful, it's true, and what makes the current world political situation so surrealistic is that the West has an external enemy, and an internal enemy (Bush) that makes pacifying the external one all but impossible. Still, you could take Bush out of the equation and you'll still have the Muslims. This is not about "hating" people; this is about an objective assessment of their philosophy as found in the Koran. And the route to improvement, I believe, must include a reaching out to the persecuted women, gays, religious minorities, and even dissenting straight males within Islamic societies. If the rest of the world doesn't stick up for those people's human rights, then the Muslims will believe they can get away with continuing to violate them. And they feel divinely sanctioned in doing so, because they are acting according to what the Koran tells them to do. For the record, the pope is also an anti-gay, religious wingnut asshole; but he does not exhort others to kill gays, as the Ayatollah al-Sistani has done. So to sum up: humanism, good, religion, dubious. Take two appletinis and call me in the morning.

Hey BO18: Why didn't you produce the links you were asked for? Cat got your tongue? Now you have earned it but good: take your bullshit and shove it!

Sagghabhat Singh says:
"And the route to improvement, I believe, must include a reaching out to the persecuted women, gays, religious minorities, and even dissenting straight males within Islamic societies."

This we can agree on!

Look, I feel just as passionately as you on the issue, and being a pro-feminist who opposes just about any double standards in our society, you can only imagine how I feel about the Middle East's way of treating women. ok..

But I'm also an artist in rl, and as such I take my role seriously..I have to, or else there's no hope! I also consider someone like Michael Lucas to be an artist because of the way he approaches his work and engages with his fans..which is why I don't necessarly understand his ethnocentrist and polarizing views on this issue. It's a bit immature and I know he's better than that.

What I'd prefer to see him do is continue to subvert the culture with his films, like make a porn movie in which Israelian and Palestinian men resolve their conflicts by coming together and fucking each other's brains out. Now that'd be hot! :)..controversial but still hot. And it's a powerful way to use art to bring about changes and discussion.

The Palestinian/Israeli gay male porno film envisioned by "Da" would be controversial in a normal sense of that word for the Israeli participants. But the Palestinian ones had better already have residency in other, more liberal places than Gaza or the West Bank because if they don't they will be killed for having participated in the film. Such a film also wouldn't be good, at this point, for the cause of peace. The Palestinian line is that homosexuality only exists in their society because Israel has caused it to exist. The film, to them, would be more proof of that. The conductor Daniel Barenboim heads the East West Divan Orchestra made of Israeli and Palestinian musicians. They've been well receive at Carnegie Hall but you see the impact that's had on the overall situation.

Well, when you think of it there are already several plays and films in Europe that deal with jew and arab relationships, so it wouldn't be that much a stretch. Also, art is not meant to replace political discussion. It just brings brings awarness and impacts people's perceptions on an individual basis.

Da, really. Please cite one example of a movie with a gay Palestinian Arab having an intimate sexual relationship with a man of whatever background, never mind Jewish; and then tell me what happened to the Arab actor after he returned to the Gaza Strip or the West Bank.

People should take notice that in the above comments, BO18 was asked to back up his claims about tolerance of gays in countries like Tunisia, Jordan and Lebanon with actual links to gay sites run and written in those countries. BO18 then fell silent. That's because there are no such sites in those countries, though he previously claimed there were. The rest of his claims are equally bullshit claims.

Bo18 must have gotten a great fuck in Morocco. Congratulations. It's actually true that the climate for gay people has improved in Morocco since the current king, who himself is gay, has taken power. Of course that's mostly true for tourists and upper class Moroccans. Gay working class guys still have a hard time because the anti gay laws (which in truly religous hypocritical fashion still remain on the books) are mostly enforced against them. But Bo18 seems to think that's just dandy as long as he, the tourist, can get his rocks off. And if he's really 18, and cute, the king himself might oblige! Just imagine what we'll hear about the gay-friendly muslim environment then!

And I almost forgot to thank Bo for his recommendation of Dunkin Donuts as the hub of gay life in Beirut (with or without homophobic manager). Cruising with donuts --- sounds like bliss. I could actually recommend a lot better in Beirut but I am not going to undermine my own argument.