Queerty is better as a member

Log in | Register
 

Queerty ReBUTTal

rebuttalsmall22111.jpg
Whoa homos! Another week done, dozens of stories and even more comments. We’ll give you one guess where we’re going with this… That’s right, it’s Friday, which means it’s Queerty ReBUTTal time! Yay!

For those of you who don’t know, Queerty ReBUTTal’s when we take some time to comment on your comments on our comments from the past week’s stories. Another banner week here at Queerty, folks and we thank all of you for your good, bad and, yes, even the ugly words.

Rather than discussing multiple stories, we’d like to highlight one particular story. And, we must admit, we’re pleasantly surprised by the amount of comments we received on this one.

We knew you’d kids would have a few words, but we had no idea the turn-out would be so explosive…

The story in question came yesterday morning, when we wrote on activist artist Charles Merrill’s latest stunt. In an effort to combat faith-based homophobia, Merrill took an antique Qua’ran valued at $60,000 and set it ablaze (Gay Artist Burns “Hate,” History). While we appreciate Merrill’s passion for his cause, book burning happens to be one of our biggest pet peeves. That said, we think Merrill’s act deserves attention for the issues it raises. Some readers, however, seem to disagree with our stance. In fact, one reader even harnesses Shirley Phelps’ language and accuses us of enabling Merrill:

I was just taken on a tour of an AIDS facility that services indigent populations. Their funding has been slashed, so they had to get rid of their whole mental health division, slash funds to feed people, get them to doctors, etc.

$60,000 would have been vital to this organization. but this publicity-seeking asshole (with the help of enablers like queerty) would rather burn some book.

What a selfish asshole.

You’re totally right: $60,000 can do a lot of good. Merrill’s act does reek of self-publicity, but would you rather we just ignored it and let it pass? Raising the issue, we think, allows people to rethink the range of their activism. But that’s just us.

Reader james_boston, meanwhile, totally supports Merrill’s actions, writing:

Good for him! As crazy as the bible-thumping Christians are (and they are crazy), the fundamentalist Muslims are in a league of their own. And all over some fiction written centuries ago. Fucking loons!! Let’s stop pretending as if we have to tolerate the intolerant and their idiotic beliefs…step foot in Iran, declare yourself gay and see how long you last before you’re executed. The Islamists are fucking nuts and it’s about time we say so openly, like we do about the Jerry Falwells of the world.

Islamic fundamentalists are total loons. You’re right. To say all Islamists are, how did you put it, “fucking nuts,” opens a big ol’ box of racism, another one of our pet peeves. Falwell and his brood definitely deserve our scorn, as does Dr Muhammad Siddiq, the president of the Islamic Medical Association who compared gay people to litter bugs. Some people, however, don’t seem to understand that not all religious types are evil. Take, for example, Qjersey’s comment, which begins by quoting the original post:

We understand religion can be used for evil, but Merrill seems to forget that it can also be used for good.”

What are you smoking? When was the last time any big religious group spent as much time and energy on something good as they do on demonizing queers?

You have a point, but only to a degree. Unfortunately, most of the nati-gay groups have more money than their pro-gay allies. This is not to say, however, that all religious groups and figures aren’t spending energy on supporting gay rights. Archbishop Desmond Tutu, by far one of the most influential people in the religious and secular worlds, regularly speaks out to defend gay people. American Episcopalian leaders regularly support gays – and have threatened to split the entire Anglican Communion by doing so. Troy Perry’s Metropolitan Community Church gives millions of homos hope. It may not be your particularly brand of hope – if you have any – but if it brings comfort to these people and doesn’t hurt anyone else, who are you to begrudge them their faith. We totally agree with one reader, cjc, who writes,

I can understand gay rage at religion. I admit, I’ve felt it. But some of the responses on here make me just as disgusted as the Jerry Falwells and Osama bin Ladens of the world. Why be so hateful in return? Where does it get you?

Someone pass cjc’s message on to Lambcannon, who write,

Fuck all the religious koox and supernatural believers of all stripes, yesterday, today and tomorrow… fuck the “Metropolitan Community Church”, fuck the priests, fuck the righteous dyke ministerettes, all the believers in pathetic lies… at least Tammie Faye had the decency to drop dead in my lifetime

Perhaps, little lamb, you’d like to say that to a reader named Allen, who left the following note on R.I.P. Tammy Faye:

Being a closeted gay boy in South Dakota, I heard a lot about gays going to Hell from my friends and a few teachers, but hearing Tammy say the most loving, uplifting words – it changed my world completely.

I’m really sad that she is gone, but happy she is in a much better place.

See, religion does do good?

Regardless of your take, thanks for all the comments, readers! You definitely give us something to think about over the weekend. If it weren’t for you, we’d just stare at a wall drooling.

Make it a good one!
xoxo,
Queerty

By:           Andrew Belonksy
On:           Jul 27, 2007
Tagged: , , , , ,

  • 59 Comments
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “To say all Islamists are, how did you put it, ‘fucking nuts,’ opens a big ol’ box of racism, another one of our pet peeves.”

      Well, it might be anti-religion, but that comment certainly wasn’t racist. A chosen religion is different from one’s race. Since may races practice Islam, is it one race being prejudiced against, or all of them?

      And frankly, I tend to agree with the comment; I have yet to meet a Muslim who wasn’t off their nut.

      Jul 27, 2007 at 8:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      Exactly. Prove me wrong. Show us one sane Muslim.

      Jul 27, 2007 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      Paul and James,

      Wow. Approximately 1 billion people in the world are believers in Allah and both of you have decided that 1 billion folk are crazy. Okay I’ll play this silly game. Here is your sane Muslim James:

      http://www.rezaaslan.com/index.html

      Let me know if you want more names.

      Jul 27, 2007 at 10:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      You can start your education with a quick tour of artists, pop starts, and musicians. The first that come to mind are
      Sezen Aksu (she’s hot – love her!)
      Tarkan (hotter)
      Amr Diab (hottest)
      Mustafa Erdogan
      Marjane Satrapi
      Azar Nafisi
      Marawan Hamed
      Laila Marrakchi
      Naguib Mahfouz
      Pramoedya Ananta Toer

      Try youtube for the singers; I’m sure they are all on there.

      You should read some Rumi, of course.

      You can then follow up with the writings or speeches of some politicians who put most of ours to shame:
      Kemal Ataturk (Before you go there, I am aware of his possible crimes during the war. I am also aware that he was a more committed secularist than any current US politician outside of Ron Paul).
      Queen Noor
      King Abudllah II

      Or, if you don’t have the time, you can maintain your level of hatred and continue to spew it here. We’re used to it by now.

      Jul 28, 2007 at 4:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “a quick tour of artists, pop starts, and musicians”

      So because they’re celebrities, they are automatically moderate, or not the least bit anti-western, or anti-gay? Clearly you’re thinking with the wrong head, hisurfer. I mean Jesus Christ, hisurfer, you’re defending a war criminal!

      Look, when practitioners of a particular religion have no qualms about strapping explosives to themselves and blowing up everything within a mile radius including their own people; fly planes into buildings; blow up our soldiers; and kill LGBTQ’s then I have no choice but to generalize about that religions followers.

      I’m amazed at how quickly some people who demonize Christians, will give a pass to Islamics who even though they share a hatred for us along with Christians, do things Christians would never do to us, namely kill us in the name of “honour.”

      There is a show on the CBC called, “Little Mosque On The Prairie” about Muslims living in a small Saskatchewan town. One episode, the only gay in the village wanted to get married, (legal in Canada) but the Muslims who use the Anglican church’s basement as their Mosque were up in arms about this.

      The local Muslim restaurant owner refused to cater the wedding, until the OGITV said he’d go to another restaurant for curry and whatnot. She flipped and said, I kid you not,

      “I do not tolerate homosexuals, but I want your money. I’ll do it!”

      And the straight actor playing gay squealed like a school girl and minced off pleased that a phobic character sees him as an ATM rather than a friend.

      As an aside, the OGITV decided to have his wedding in “the big city” because he didn’t want to offend the religious immigrants who have decided that a born and bred Canadian should not be able to exercise his legal rights, because their religion doesn’t like something about him. Well, the character didn’t say that, but the CBC is all about being PC.

      Not oddly enough, the OGITV’s fiance appeared in three scenes and never uttered a single word. Just the way people like their gays, seen and not heard.

      Anywho, the point of this is the producers and writers are Muslim who actually felt that episode was appropriate and apparently open minded. We’re suppose to feel for the restaurant owner because, you see, she’s not only Muslim, she’s a woman and black, so she’s a real minority–of over one billion Muslims, over half the world’s gender population and over 700 million POC. But she’s a minority.

      Don’t you find it nauseating that women who travel to Islamic countries, women who do not practice Islam, have to abide by their ridiculous rules; such as always being covered up, never walking alone, not READING in public, else they risk being arrested, tried and imprisoned? Yet, Muslims who travel to non Islamic countries expect those countries to bend to their wishes and religion.

      So you can call it hate all you want, hisurfer, but the fact of the matter is, Christians may talk the anti-gay talk, but Islamics walk the anti-gay walk and that makes them dangerous to not only us, but to everyone.

      Jul 28, 2007 at 9:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kamasutrajones
      kamasutrajones

      “Don’t you find it nauseating that women who travel to Islamic countries, women who do not practice Islam, have to abide by their ridiculous rules; such as always being covered up, never walking alone, not READING in public, else they risk being arrested, tried and imprisoned? Yet, Muslims who travel to non Islamic countries expect those countries to bend to their wishes and religion.”

      And there you point out the hypocrisy that is Islam, Paul. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

      A friend recently worked with a Muslim who needed to take 5 half-hour breaks during the day to pray. When my friend pointed out that the fellow needed to work late one night, as he had taken 2.5 hours (plus a one hour lunch break) out of his day to pray, the fellow went ballistic and accused him of being anti-Islamic. He said that my friend was limiting his “constitutional right to freedom of religion.” My friend calmly said to the guy, “If I went to your country (Pakistan), and asked that I not work on Sunday because I am Christian, what would happen?” The fellow said that it wouldn’t be allowed because Pakistan is a Muslim country. My friend tried to show him the hypocrisy in this, but the guy just didn’t get it. He had a chip on his shoulder and he wasn’t letting it go.

      BTW, the whole thing went to the HR department at their job and the guy did end up having to work later each day, as 2.5 hours each day for religious practice did not fall within the companies strict relgious observance rules. Of course, the guy threatened to sue, but couldn’t find a lawyer to take his case. So, he went back to Pakistan without finishing his training.

      Anyway, I’d rather have someone like Fred Phelps hating me and sitting next to me than any Islamic cleric. At least with Phelps I’d stay alive (thought I’d probably rip out my ears so as not to hear his hate speech). With the Islamic cleric I’d be dead from stoning or hanging almost instantly.

      Jul 28, 2007 at 11:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      Paul and Kama said it all. The problem with people like hisurfer and the Queerty editors is that out of some mis-guided sense of open mindness, they think they have to tolerate the insane. We have no right to be over in Iraq or anywhere in the middle east imposing our “democracy”, our way of life on them. But they also better not bring their idiotic shit over here. Stay in the fucking desert worshiping and killing for something that doesn’t exist except in your brain-washed minds if you wish…just don’t impose it on us in the West. I like my freedom from religion, my freedom to speak my mind, my booze, my porn. Thank you, don’t come again.

      Jul 28, 2007 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      So it’s “open-mindness” to make a distinction between those who kill and maim in the name of Allah and those who do not. Who knew!

      Jul 28, 2007 at 6:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      I think the difference is that I’ve actually been to the middle east, and can tell the difference between a terrorist and a normal person. I also know that some of your all ideas about what life is like over there are off-base. Things are bad in some countries over there, not all.

      I picked pop stars who are popular in the gay Muslim world – some of who are gay themselves. I picked authors who covered and supported gay issues. I picked directors who have featured positive gay characters in their movies.

      I would also classify Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and the rest as war criminals. They ordered the chemical bombing of Fallujah, after all. By your own logic, this would mean that all Americans are by extension war criminals.

      Which, for the record, is the same logic al Qaeda uses: if one apple is bad it’s ok to hate them all.

      And maybe here is the difference. You think: al Qaeda is bad, therefore all Muslims are bad. I think: al Qaeda is bad, therefore all people who blindly hate are bad.

      Jul 28, 2007 at 7:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      I think that that 5% that have waged war on their people and ours are insane, I think the 15% that silently support them are insane and I think the rest who aren’t as extreme have shown a willingness to live under the rule of the crazies. And yes, Bush and his Neocon buddies are War criminals and frankly should be handed over to the Iraqi’s to be tried. Then we should cut of all immigration from and emigration to the Middle East and let them sort their own shit out. As for the moderate Muslims, I know of one country that’s majority Muslim that’s not a fascist state, Turkey, and after the recent elections there, the Islamists have taken their government over also. So really moderation isn’t now nor has it ever been a virtue in that region. We’re not in any danger from the Christians kooks here because there is an active, energized counter-force to them in our public life. The Islamic countries have no such thing (and when they do, they kill them). All I’m really saying is, I wouldn’t wanna live even with the same rules that “moderate” Muslims in Western countries live under. It’s still a bigoted, repressive way of life. And I certainly don’t appreciate it when they try and bring their kookiness to the West (though that’s really only a problem in Europe right now).

      Jul 28, 2007 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      James_Boston,

      You are funny. You go from “[s]how us one sane Muslim” to “the rest who aren’t as extreme have shown a willingness to live under the rule of the crazies.” So first all Muslims are extremists to not all but they still are crazy. Whatever. I’ve heard this type of logic before and it’s no good.

      If you want to learn about Islam I suggest you read B. Lewis.

      Jul 28, 2007 at 9:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      “If you want to learn about Islam I suggest you read B. Lewis.”

      Honestly, I have zero interest in Islam, my own Catholic religion, the Jewish religion, or any of the myriad fictional beliefs that people are so happy to kill and die for. I think pretty much all religious people are delusional, to greater or lesser degrees. The only religions I even remotely respect are the Hindi and Buddhist ones because they truly seem to be about peace and not power. But I do have a problem with those like you Billiexx, who defend modern day Islam fueled by their (legitimate) hatred of Bush and his policies. Because nutballs like Bush and Cheney are seemingly anti-Islam doesn’t mean you have to be pro-Islam. A secular westerner (which I assume you are, as I am) who believes in Democracy defending modern Islam is ignoring how utterly incompatible it is with our way of life.

      What others and I are trying to say, even though we seem to be saying it badly, is that an honest person has to admit that Islam is causing much, if not all, of the chaos in the world today, much as Christianity did during the time of the Crusades. Something is wrong with a religion when so many of it’s teachers and followers can interpret it’s teachings to mean that it’s ok to kill non-believers, including children of your own faith, when even the “moderates” think you have a right to stone to death homosexuals and women who don’t dress correctly or have “sinned” against your family (and I’m sure you know this keeps happening pretty much on a daily basis from Iraq all the way to France), when even the most liberal interpreters of Islam think women are second class citizens…I can go on for a pages on end. And this has been going on for decades, long before we invaded Iraq. You know this is true. How can you honestly tell me that there’s anything about modern Islam that’s compatible with our secular democracy? You are so intellectually dishonest it’s not even funny. You’re the type of guy who’ll argue that the sky is yellow if that was the P.C. thing to do.

      And don’t bother calling me a bigot…I grew up half black, half Irish in South Boston. Nobody is more sensitive to being treated badly because of something you can’t help. Which is why I feel for the victims of modern day Islam, especially women and gay men. All those being hung from a rope in Iran because they’re gay and those being murdered in Amsterdam in their own back yard by Muslims who bring their psychosis with them (scroll down a page right here on Queerty to read all about it).

      Jul 29, 2007 at 2:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      Turkey isn’t a good example, really. It’s more complicated than “the fascists are taking over.” Like in most Muslim countries, the old government was a secular leftist dictatorship. Iran and Saudi are the ONLY large religious governments in the Middle East ( I don’t know much about the emirates). What the Turks called the “Deep State” didn’t allow for dissent. The only opposition in most places are the Islamists – which is part of the problem. Democracy, with US backing, has been crushed by any ally of our “war on terror.”

      The Islamists in Turkey are eager to show that they can be secular. Gay rights have been improving under the current regime. The recent attacks on civil liberties have come from representatives of the old state.

      So it’s far more complex than Islam is Bad.

      A lot of the issues with women & gays – which are real, of course – stem from the culture, not the religion. What your argument ignores is that there are sizeable Christian minorities in most of the Middle Eastern countries, and even pockets of Judaism. I’ve been there, and I can vouch that women’s rights and gay rights are just as poor in the Copt, Druze, Chaldean, Orthodox Jewish, & Orthodox Christian towns as in any Muslim town. The only real difference in some places is the head scarf.

      The second problem is Wahabism – a radical branch of Islam. A lot of the stereotypes we hear in the West deal with this sect. It’s powerful thanks to Saudi money and Saudi-funded madrasas in poor areas. It is not in any way shape or form the most common branch of Islam you find in the Middle East, only the most intolerant and well-funded.

      Look to Indonesia and Malaysia for evidence – both are majority Muslim, and both interpret the religion far differently than the Arabs and Persians. Or look to New York, Detroit (my hometown), or Los Angeles for huge Muslim populations that are doing just fine in the West.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 7:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      oops – the first sentence should be “the Islamists are taking over.”

      Jul 29, 2007 at 7:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      “Hindi and Buddhist ones because they truly seem to be about peace and not power”

      And, yikes. Thai culture is pretty liberal, but most other Buddhist or Hindu countries don’t really fare too well with women or queers either. Burma, Vietnam, China, India, Bhutan, and Tibet all have pretty shitty records on both.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 7:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “and can tell the difference between a terrorist and a normal person.”

      If a person does not blow themselves up in the name of Allah, yet still ascribes to the same tenets, beliefs and hatred as those people who do blow themselves up, then there is no difference between the two.

      “some of who are gay themselves”

      They’ve declared they are gay, or it is assumed they are? I know Tarkan had a brouhaha over some pics of him with another man, but he vehemently denied being gay.

      “By your own logic, this would mean that all Americans are by extension war criminals”

      First off, you’re talking about a nation of people, I’m talking about a group of people who follow a particular religion and political belief.

      Have those Americans blown themselves up, along with other Americans, in the name of Bush? It’s one thing to take orders from your military superiors, it’s another to call a Jihad on people and begin a reign of terrorism.

      “You think: al Qaeda is bad, therefore all Muslims are bad.”

      I think all Muslims who silently support al Qaeda are bad and many do support them. After all, we had 18 born and bred Canadians arrested for plotting a terrorist attack on Canadian soil and they were all good, open minded, well schooled young men. No one suspected them, which is what they trade on. If you are plotting, you don’t announce it to the world. It’s a case of the devil you know, the devil you don’t.

      “I think: al Qaeda is bad, therefore all people who blindly hate are bad.”

      They may be blind, but they are also silent. You’ll never see them–or it–coming.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 9:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “But I do have a problem with those like you Billiexx, who defend modern day Islam fueled by their (legitimate) hatred of Bush and his policies. Because nutballs like Bush and Cheney are seemingly anti-Islam doesn’t mean you have to be pro-Islam.”

      Exactly! It’s a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 9:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “stem from the culture, not the religion.”

      And their culture comes from their religion, hisurfer, just like many western nations, the one you’re sitting in right now included.

      “Or look to New York, Detroit (my hometown), or Los Angeles for huge Muslim populations that are doing just fine in the West.”

      And how are they treating their own people, hisurfer?

      Your point raises the question; why such a huge influx of Muslims into other nations? Why is it in my own small city, the Muslim population has exploded since September 11, 2001? Why is it we went from having a sliver of a minority of Muslims and no Mosques seven years ago, to having a massive number of Muslims and seven Mosques today? We are a relatively small city, population of about 180k, yet we’ve been inundated with Muslims for no apparent reason. And this is not an oddity in Canada, major cities and small towns all over Canada have seen an explosion of the Muslim population. Why? Look to the UK, the Netherlands, even Portugal where my family came from has seen a massive increase in Islamics. If their nations are so wonderful, why are they leaving them in droves, hisurfer?

      In Richmond Hill, a wealthy suburb outside of Toronto, a high school principal refused to allow a gay/straight alliance because apparently it would offend the school’s massive number of Muslim parents:

      http://simcoeblog.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/its-just-so-gay/

      It’s been mentioned that Ms. Chan herself is Muslim, but she has refused to answer. That’s the reality of your “moderate” Muslims, hisurfer.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 10:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      James_Boston,

      “But I do have a problem with those like you Billiexx, who defend modern day Islam fueled by their (legitimate) hatred of Bush and his policies.”

      Okay, you cannot read. Nowhere, NOWHERE (sorry to yell), in my comments is there a defense of those who kill, maim, murder, or lynch in the name of Islam. And you make assumptions about my “hatred” for Bush. If you did research, you would find out that Bernard Lewis (the guy I told you to read) is seen by some as the intellectual father of the present Iraq War. I’m no fan of the war but think Lewis’ scholarship on Islam is important and a must read because it keeps us away from your type of thinking that Islam is somehow unable to thrive in a democracy (an idea that is ahisotrical). If you did some more research you would find the other guy I pointed you (http://www.rezaaslan.com/index.html) to makes the case Islam needs a reformation.

      And when did it become pro-Islam to make serious distinctions between those who kill in name of Allah and those who don’t?

      Despite your upbringing in Boston you remain a bigot. You cannot say stuff like this “Show us one sane Muslim” and then claim to be free of prejudice.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 10:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mr. B
      Mr. B

      I was going to say something about all my wonderful Muslim friends from college, none of whom had a problem with people being gay–or transgendered, not at all the same thing but well worth mentioning anyway. Anyway, then I read all the appalling hypocrisy from the people who are so eager to decry their own oppression (many of them from such cozy places as NYC or Toronto, which might have their own problems but sure as hell ain’t Alabama or Tehran), and I got so clouded with headdesk angst that I decided I didn’t have the energy to attempt a coherent argument. Plus, anything I say will get conflated on some self-righteous tangent anyway.

      Salaam, kids.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 2:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      “We are a relatively small city, population of about 180k, yet we’ve been inundated with Muslims for no apparent reason.” Why don’t you bake them cookies and welcome them to your neighborhood?

      Jul 29, 2007 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “then I read all the appalling hypocrisy from the people who are so eager to decry their own oppression”

      So, because we’re oppressed we have to automatically give a pass to everyone who acts stupid? I bet you support Palestine too, right? I call bullshit, Mr. B. You may have met all those rainbow lovin’ Islamics, but I have not had the same experiences and I’m sure neither have LGBTQ Iraqi’s, Iranians, or Ugandans.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      “I’m no fan of the war but think Lewis’ scholarship on Islam is important and a must read because it keeps us away from your type of thinking that Islam is somehow unable to thrive in a democracy (an idea that is ahisotrical).”

      Indonesia, Malaysia and other “democratic” or secular Islamic countries…they aren’t any kind of democracy we’d recognize in the west. Since you’re such an intellectual, I’m sure you know that. I mean perhaps some would like a Malaysian type democracy here, a country that’s low crime and seemingly peaceful, but then again, I don’t want to be caned for spitting on the sidewalk.

      “If you did some more research you would find the other guy I pointed you (http://www.rezaaslan.com/index.html) to makes the case Islam needs a reformation.”

      So I guess we do all agree that there is something wrong with Islam after all. I mean, why would it need “reformation” otherwise? So what are we arguing about? And why don’t you Billie, go live in an Islamic country if it’s so fantastic over there? Eh???? Tell me Billie…cause apparently you’d enjoy all the personal freedoms you enjoy here so what’s stopping you? I’m sure the Turks would welcome an openly gay man with open arms. And so would Indonesia and Malaysia, right Billie? You wouldn’t have to fear for your life at all right? So when you leaving buddy?

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martini-boy
      Martini-boy

      Here are some other noteworthy Muslims, all of whom are deemed ‘sane’ and have led productive lives in the United States (and, without much complaint from so-called ‘regular’ Americans):

      a) Muhammad Ali, retired heavyweight boxer

      b) Malcolm X, civil rights leader

      c) Irshad Manji, queer and feminist activist

      d) Ahmed H. Zewail, chemist and Nobel winner

      e) Ice Cube, rapper and actor

      f) Iman, the supermodel

      g) Karim Rashid, industrial designer

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      Okay James_Boston this is just silly. You just pulled that lovely conservative trick of “if things are so terrible here in the States why don’t you live somewhere else.” Did I ever say I wanted to live in Turkey (although I wouldn’t mind the men but that is a different story). When I accused you of being ahistorical I was pointing to the history of the faith which is democratic (and by history JB I mean over 100 years). As for Islam needing to be “reformed” that is because a tiny minority has hijacked the faith and the fight for Islam is even important for those of us who are not believers (I’m not by the way but I’m sensing that doesn’t matter to you). That fight is not easy when people like you spew out a bunch of of ill informed noise. But in your world-view a tiny minority equals 1 billion people . No prejudice there. Of course not because your past has made you so sensitive.

      And here is why we are arguing. You said this: “Show us one sane Muslim.” I’m arguing against your bigotry. When you learn the history of Islam (or even the difference between Sunni/Shia) come talk to me, buddy. Otherwise you are no better than the other bigots walking the streets.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      “So, because we’re oppressed we have to automatically give a pass to everyone who acts stupid?”

      It’s actually more insidious than that Paul. Gays aren’t just oppressed in the Middle East (it’s a homo paradise here compared to there. I mean we’re arguing marriage rights not the right to exist), they’re jailed and murdered sometimes by a street mob and often by the state, for simply being gay. Yet Billie and others like him identify with the murderers and not the victims. It’s almost psychotic.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      “You just pulled that lovely conservative trick of “if things are so terrible here in the States why don’t you live somewhere else.”

      And you do that empty-headed hippie thing of “you disagree with me so you’re a bigot”. I guarantee you on 9 out of 10 subjects, I’m to the left of Karl Marx. I just don’t like religion and I certainly don’t like religion that encourages savagery.

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      And Billie, having grown up right here in Boston, and now living near Harvard as I do, I understand that intellectual types often twist themselves in knots defending the indefensible, because being an egg-head, ironically enough, seems to often lower your I.Q., not raise it. So here’s something that you should read…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam

      Same-sex intercourse officially carries the death penalty in several Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia, and Yemen.[1] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not specifically forbidden by law. In Egypt openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) On the other hand, homosexuality, while not legal, is tolerated to some extent in Lebanon, and has been legal in Turkey for decades.

      In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments — e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping — as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements.[2] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence.

      Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994 the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However, most Muslim nations (except for Turkey, which has been ruled by secular law since 1923 and recently has modernized its laws in order to meet the requirements of entry to the European Union) insist that such laws are necessary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim inhabitants, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[3]

      Jul 29, 2007 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      James_Boston, who are you arguing with??? You’re not really responding at all to the arguments. No one here is defending radical Islam, or claiming that gays have more rights in the Middle East, or any of that. We’re arguing with the assertion that 1) Islam is evil, and 2) all Muslims are insane. And I’m arguing that life – gay life and otherwise – is far more complex than the simple stereotypes I read on here.

      And I am basing my arguments on what I have experienced, and seen with my own eyes, as an openly gay American man in Muslim countries. Those experiences bear almost no resemblance to the stereotypes I encounter about the ME in the mainland. Istanbul alone has a more dynamic and open gay scene than most North American cities. In my opinion only New York and Montreal come close. In Jordan the attitude was, when we asked, “I don’t agree with this but it is for Allah to judge you, not men. If you do good deeds and live a good life maybe you will be ok. You will need to explain it to Allah.” Not perfect, but far better than what we get from most Republicans these days. It is certainly not what we get from FOX news broadcasts. Egypt is scary with the recent crackdown, but even that seems to be scapegoating – attack the gays and maybe the Islamists will be pacified. In Indonesia I was “assigned” boyfriends in half a dozen towns. (I was younger and purtier then … heh).

      And yet the minute you challenge Western stereotypes about what They Are Like and How Awful They Are the angry words start coming at you fast and furious.

      Dialogue ends, because you have to start every single sentence with “that’s not what I said.” And how can we make progress or change, or help our brothers and sisters over there, when we’re too busy defending ourselves against hate and anger on this end?

      Jul 30, 2007 at 12:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martini-boy
      Martini-boy

      Well said, hisurfer!

      Boston sure needs some new training in ‘sane’ logic.

      Jul 30, 2007 at 8:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “‘I don’t agree with this but it is for Allah to judge you, not men. If you do good deeds and live a good life maybe you will be ok. You will need to explain it to Allah.’ Not perfect, but far better than what we get from most Republicans these days.”

      Uh, hisurfer, switch Allah for God and that is exactly what you hear from anti-gay Republicans–and conservatives and Democrats and progressives for that matter–everyday in America. Why is it acceptable when coming from an Islamic mouth, but not a non-Islamic mouth? You’re in such a lather to defend Islam that your arguments are becoming absurd.

      “Egypt is scary with the recent crackdown, but even that seems to be scapegoating – attack the gays and maybe the Islamists will be pacified.”

      The situation in Egypt is “scary? First off, the Islamics are not being pacified, the Islamics are the ones tormenting Egyptian LGBTQ’s. Secondly, being arrested, wrongfully tried and imprisoned, or killed isn’t scary, it’s evil in the name of religion.

      Lastly, I’m surprised you like Montreal gay life, you don’t seem the type who would like uncut men.

      Jul 30, 2007 at 9:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      James_Boston,

      “Yet Billie and others like him identify with the murderers and not the victims. It’s almost psychotic.”

      No fair minded person would read my words and make this accusation. I’ll stop wasting the bandwidth of Queerty because it’s clear that your bigotry has made a debate impossible. And you are not a bigot because you disagree with me. Writing sentences like this confirm your prejudice:

      “Show us one sane Muslim.”

      ps: thanks for using wikepedia. You don’t have to tell me how are gay brothers and sisters are tortured and abused in the Middle East. You could go the Amnesty International website and get more information.

      http://www.amnestyusa.org/Our_Issues/LGBT_Human_Rights/page.do?id=1011002&n1=3&n2=36

      Jul 30, 2007 at 9:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      Fine…so there are a few sane Muslims in thrall to a lot of insane ones…big woo! I’ll admit I shouldn’t have said “show us one sane Muslim”. That doesn’t change the fact that they have a very, very sick culture, far more dangerous to secularism than anything our sad little right-wing Christians can throw our way. So deal with it and stop making excuses for people who’d kill you the first chance they’d get. Wake the fuck up!

      Jul 30, 2007 at 12:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martini-boy
      Martini-boy

      Question, Boston: what, exactly, do you mean by Secularism? As a Canadian living under a Conservative government, I would not by any stretch of the word call the United States a model ‘Secular’ nation.

      Secularism, like any abstract term that comes our way, has many different meanings according to whom you ask. To some, it may indicate total freedom FROM religion; to others, it may suggest a freedom OF religion, which is what most Western nations have – and rightly so.

      That said: in a nation that still allows a number of states to teach their children Abstinence-only sex and Creationist theories, then Secularism is the last thing you should be defending here. Worry about the state of Secularism in your own country – and by extension the rights of gays and other groups discriminated under the pretenses of religion – before you go around bashing the Secularism of other nations. Honestly.

      As for those ‘crazy’ Muslims… well, the ‘crazy’ right-wingers down south aren’t any better. Those in Canada, I’m sure, are just as bitter. Although they don’t act on their hatred by blowing themselves up, I’m pretty sure some of them still wish for the death of all gays (hello there, Mr. Phelps!) and the complete abolishment of non-Christian believers. This, in theory, should make them as unworthy of the ‘insane’ Muslims you speak of. There really aren’t that many differences between the two.

      After all, as Paul so nicely put it: “if a person does not blow themselves up in the name of [God], yet still ascribes to the same tenets, beliefs and hatred… then there is no difference between the two.”

      Jul 30, 2007 at 1:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      The evangelical nutjobs down South can wish me dead all they want…they just can’t act on it like the governments of Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and so on and so on, can. Our nutjobs are legally kept in check, unlike the middle eastern nutjobs (read the wiki entry above)and there certainly aren’t as many of them, even down South. (I’ve been there…they’re pretty genteel folk who keep their religious bullshit to themselves.) I’m not forced to attend Church, nor am I a social outcast, nor is my life in danger cause I’m an atheist (and it would be in that wacky Middle East you love so much…by the way, you do know that the jihadists are now targeting the Christian minority in Iraq and elsewhere, right? Another inconvenient truth, I know.) Maybe it’s a Boston thing but I don’t know many religious folk at all.

      Are you really so blind martiniboy that you can’t tell the difference between our society where the government won’t jail and/or execute you for your lifestyle choice, where you can have public gay pride events (try walking down the street in Morocco in assless chaps buddy), marriage (in my state and a couple of others) between gays is taking fruit, where civil unions are being legalized in hundreds of cities, where politicians of all political stripes condemn violence against us, where those politicians are in fact having a debate soon about which one of them is the biggest gay lover (the Logo Democratic debate) and you’re gonna actually tell me that we ain’t that different from the Islamic countries? Get a grip…and stop lying to yourself.

      Jul 30, 2007 at 3:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelLucas
      MichaelLucas

      There are some things that some of you guys don’t want to admit. Yes, it’s true, not all Muslims are terrorists, but all the terrorists are Muslims. They have been terrorizing this planet for the past 30 years, and very successfully, too. Not only by killing thousands of innocent people, but by making us spend hundreds of billions of dollars on security.

      A lot of you who comment here don’t know anything about the situation of Muslims in Europe. A lot of people these days are calling Europe “Eurabia,” as Muslims are immigrating there in huge numbers and breeding like rats. They bring intolerance to tolerant countries, and in the end, the tolerant governments will fail in the elections.

      They demand everything from the West, but give nothing back. Nothing but hate and suicide bombers.

      And please stop separating the Osama Bin Ladens from the world that they come from, which is the world of Islam.

      Saying that, I applaud the actions of Charles Merrill. Whoever doesn’t is nothing more than a traitor of Western Civilization. Remember, if Muslims would have their way, us gays will be the first to be stoned.

      PS – Someone said that Muhammad Ali is sane? He who said that white people should not integrate with black people? And who said he would give his live for Allah, but not for his mother, who he called an infidel?

      Jul 30, 2007 at 6:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      Michael,

      Was Timothy McVeigh a Muslim? Does he fall within your 30 year limit?

      “A lot of you who comment here don’t know anything about the situation of Muslims in Europe.”

      Oh, really? Well do me a favor? Please tell me some fact about the murder of Theo Van Gogh that I don’t know? Or better yet, please inform me about the bombings in London and Spain? Or what about the death threats that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has received and how the Holland government made her to be the problem?

      It’s not very complicated (except for maybe a certain guy from Boston). I know what the Muslim terrorists are doing and what they hope to do; however, I also know that not every one of the 1 billion people who worship Allah are strapping bombs to their chests.

      ps: As for Muhammad Ali he has apologized and disavowed all the stuff he said when he was a member of the Nation of Islam (he’s no longer a member). In fact when journalist Daniel Pearl was kidnapped by Muslim terrorists, Ali appealed for his release

      http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/21/pearl.timeline/

      Jul 30, 2007 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      Oh poor disingenuous Billie and your “but they’re not all terrorists” bullshit. All the Middle Eastern countries are state sponsors of terrorism, either against the West or each other. Or are they just being neighborly by funding Al-Qaeda (Saudis), Hezbelloah (Iran, Syria, Egypt), the shiite militias in Iraq (Iran), the Sunni militas in Iraq (Saudi Arabia), etc…

      Obviously the vast majority of the Muslim populations, while they may not take up arms against “infidels” themselves, silently support those who do. Otherwise, your great silent majority would not be letting their leaders conduct terrorist acts, they wouldn’t be allowing their countries to keep executing or jailing us gays and bisexuals (which is terrorism against their own), or killing or forcibly converting Christians and Jews. Also, since you at least appear to be well-read, I’m sure you’ve seen those polls of Muslim countries, where there is widespread support for Bin Laden, suicide bombings, etc. Sad that people like you never seem to learn til it’s too fucking late…again, though this is just a guess, you’re letting your hatred for our idiot-boy president cloud your judgement.

      Or maybe like Bush, you’re just a little slow :)

      Jul 30, 2007 at 7:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mr. B
      Mr. B

      Darlings, you seem to forget that Islam is a pretty big religion. As in, there are millions of people practicing it. And there are…how many terrorists? A few thousand? Maybe–maybe–a few tens of thousands?

      The Qur’an isn’t a terrorist instruction manual. Sure, a bunch of you will probably pull up quotes and try to conflate them, but we could do that with the Holy Bible, too.

      Instead, why don’t we take another huge group and make gross generalizations? Like, oh, gay people? First we’ll exclude lesbians (because who cares about them, right?), and we’ll also take out bisexuals (because they’re all kidding themselves anyway). So that leaves…gay men. Fine. Gay men are all a bunch of materialistic, shallow, self-absorbed caricatures who thrive on narcissism, body fascism, and self-destructive behavior. And they’re solely responsible for the AIDS crisis and the meth epidemic, as well as that godawful blight known as electronic dance music.

      Now, who would say that besides a blatant homophobe or, even better, a self-hating fag?

      But no, somehow it’s different when we’re talking about Muslims. I’m sorry, Islamists. Because don’t you know, every Muslim wants to live in a theocracy.

      Jul 31, 2007 at 11:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Raposo
      Paul Raposo

      “how many terrorists? A few thousand? Maybe–maybe–a few tens of thousands?”

      It only takes one person to blow themselves up,
      Mr. B. It doesn’t matter if there were ten billion Islamics in the world. If only one of them kills in the name of their God, that is one too many.

      Secondly, I find it ridiculous that you’re trying to downplay the number of people intent on killing non-Muslims. I mean, there are how many anti-LGBTQ people in the world? How many of them want to kill us? Few few thousand? So why are we loosing sleep over those homophobes?

      “Gay men are all a bunch of materialistic, shallow, self-absorbed caricatures who thrive on narcissism, body fascism, and self-destructive behavior. And they’re solely responsible for the AIDS crisis and the meth epidemic, as well as that godawful blight known as electronic dance music.”

      But how does any of that negatively affect innocent bystanders, non-gay people, non-religious people and women? How many gay men have the walked into a club and blown it up? Those personality traits may be destructive, but they are, as you pointed out, self-destructive.

      Jul 31, 2007 at 12:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelLucas
      MichaelLucas

      I’m really shocked with BillieXX’s response. And especially with Mr. B’s.

      I’m so sick of hearing from Islamic apologists bringing up Timothy McVeigh over and over again as an example of a non-Muslim terrorist. Here are 3 reasons why McVeigh cannot be compared to Islamic terrorists:

      1) He did not ever justify his actions with references to the Bible.

      2) He was not acting on mainstream Christian teachings.

      3) There are no Christian groups around the world that are dedicated to implementing suicide bombings.

      Muslims are blowing up themselves for their sacred book, the Koran, which is what I call the “Mein Kampf” of today.

      And to Mr. B: Did you happen to see the Gallup Poll from about 2 months ago, conducted worldwide? In France, 56 percent of Muslims under the age of 30 support suicide bombings. In America, 26 percent. It varies from country to country. Let me imagine that some of the Muslims were not completely honest in this poll, and simply didn’t admit their true feelings. If so, I can speculate that the numbers can double or triple. But even with these poll numbers, we’re not just talking a couple thousands, we’re talking millions of Muslims who support Jihad.

      Jul 31, 2007 at 3:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      Political correctness will be the death of western society. Mr. B, being a gay man, is sensitive to gay stereotypes so he will defend to his death (literally since if the Islamists get him he will be killed) Muslims despite all the evidence of the sickness in their culture. All the evidence of the destructivness (to themselves and others) of their hyper-religiosity is ignored. To the Dan’s and Mr. B’s of the world, if you dare to be judgemental about something, anything, even if that something is out to destroy all that is good in the world (the stated goal of the Islamists is to bring down Western Secularism), you must be a bigot. If this was 1939, and we were talking about how the German people are dangerous because they’re in thrall to a madman, Mr. B would be calling us anti-German bigots. There is nothing, nothing, about any Muslim country that anyone who values freedom and liberty should want to emulate.

      And by the way, we never, ever, should have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq. Impeach, convict and execute Bush, Cheney and most of his cabinet for war crimes. Then cut off all immigration from the Middle East. And maybe in a hundred years or so, the Muslims will have worked through their psychosis and they’ll be ready to join the civilized world. Then we can all live together in peace.

      Jul 31, 2007 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      Mr. Michael,

      My comment about McVeigh was to point out that unfortunately terror has a whole lot of coverts and if we use your 30 year mark we can find bloody acts of violence across the globe (Northern Ireland?). Making that comment does not negate, nor excuse, the terror that is done in the name of Allah.

      As for polls, I read a lot of them and I know the one you mention. I also know others that refute the Gallup numbers (http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=254)

      One more thing Mr. M, even you will admit the word jihad is filled with multiple meanings. There is the way it has been taken up by Osama and his ilk, but the word has also been translated as “an internal struggle” having nothing to do with violence. Here is a scholar who has spent time studying jihadists (the ones who believe in terror). You might want to look at his work.

      http://pages.slc.edu/~fgerges/index.php?page=index

      Calling the Koran the “Mein Kempf” of today is silly hyperbole that will earn you the kudos of people like James_Boston.

      I guess I’m confused what the problem is. You use the phrase “Islamic apologists” but if you look at my posts here there has not been an apology for violence.

      James_Boston,

      You continue to prove you cannot read. I guess you can’t help it. A fair minded reader would not accuse me of the things you have.

      Jul 31, 2007 at 4:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BillieXX
      BillieXX

      Michael,

      Bringing up McVeigh does not negate terror done in the name of Allah. However, even you can admit that in the past 30 years people from all types of ideologies have resorted to terror (Northern Ireland perhaps?). Does that mean those who behead or stone in the name of Allah are not a problem? Nope and my words have made that clear. No fair minded reader would call me an “Islamic apologist.”

      Jul 31, 2007 at 5:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mr. B
      Mr. B

      It’s so cute when people state my beliefs for me.

      I think terrorists of any kind–be they Muslim extremists or Ted Kaczynski–are wrongheaded and hateful and shouldn’t be free to kill people. I know you New York types might think of me as a crunchy hippie in the sticks who doesn’t care about 9/11, but I spent that horrible day with a roommate whose mother AND father would ultimately turn out to be two of the 2,974. And I worried about the future of my country, and I was angered and horrified over what happened.

      Yet somehow I don’t blame the faults of a fringe group on an entire religion. And yes, even if there are millions of Muslims who support Jihad, that’s out of the billion plus practicing Muslims, since it’s the second most widely practiced religion in the WORLD after Christianity.

      Yet somehow, by not agreeing with some of you that Islam is a religion founded on hate and that all Muslims are fundamentally evil and should be eliminated from society in any way possible, I’m being politically correct. That’s funny, I thought I was just taking issue with hatemongering generalizations about, well, over a billion people. But instead it appears that I’m an Islamist terrorist because I object to people decrying an entire religion based on the actions of *some* of its adherents.

      Some Islamists may be blowing themselves up based on their interpretation of the Qur’an, but then, Fred Phelps and his goons have their own interpretation of the Holy Bible, don’t they? So do some, err, prominent members of our own government. But really, that’s a moot point since most of those who have decried Islam on this post also think Christianity is a mark of the devil.

      So I’ll try this angle. Who was responsible for most of the mass genocide of the Native Americans? The internment of over a hundred thousand Japanese-Americans? The kids getting napalmed in Trang Bang in 1972? “The government,” you might say, or “The military.” A minority of the people, numbers-wise, who were supported (at least at one time) by many civilians. So, what then? Are all Americans evil? Should we hate our grandparents if they weren’t appalled when the internment happened, or our ancestors (if we had them) who supported slavery?

      This is probably going to be lost on those who are stuck on me being a politically correct terrorist-supporter, but my point is that MUSLIMS ARE NOT ALL ISLAMISTS. Subscribing to that religion does NOT mean you want a theocracy or support jihad. And nonviolent Muslims aren’t some kind of tiny handful of people.

      Also, way to pull out the Nazi/anti-German argument. If you wanted to cry out against Nazis, have at it. If you were going to say that all Germans in 1939 were Jew-hating, genocide-causing, gun-toting Nazis, uh, then I’d beg to differ. I’m sure Ilse and her kids in the mountain village didn’t really give two shits about what was going on in Berlin until the buzz bombs started hitting their cottage.

      Jul 31, 2007 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      Everybody here is so fucking opinionated that no one is gonna stop til they think they’ve had the last word. Perhaps that last word can be something that finally unites us.

      Martini-boy, Mr. B, hisurfer, BillieXX…you’re all poopy-heads!

      Jul 31, 2007 at 8:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martini-boy
      Martini-boy

      “He was not acting on mainstream Christian teachings,” says Mr. Lucas of Mr. McVeigh.

      Then again, all so-called Islamists and suicide-bombers don’t follow the mainstream teachings of Islam either. Argument failed.

      Sorry to burst your bubble, folks, but Muslims are not a homogeneous group of people, much the same way Christians and gays are not. Despite your stereotypes of of the subservient Muslim, there are – gasp! – a whole faction of Muslim sects to which one can adhere to and – gasp! – a whole set of personalities that determine how such teachings are to be interpreted and lived out.

      As much as you want to believe in a mindless society that lives by hateful and self-/alter-destructive behaviour: you’re never going to find it.

      Kudos to Mr. B!

      Aug 1, 2007 at 12:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martini-boy
      Martini-boy

      Oh, and p.s. Boston:

      There’s a difference between being “so fucking opinionated” and being merely educated on the incomprehensible complexities of the societies you speak of and peoples that stem therefrom.

      If you don’t want to read B. Lewis, at least read _Orientalism_ by Edward Said. You’ll get a clear sense of your intellectual fallacy.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 12:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      **Sigh** I’ll say again poopyhead, every Muslim nation except Turkey is a theocracy or fascist state. That speaks for itself.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 12:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      And I will look up “Orientalism” (isn’t that a racist term btw? Shouldn’t it be “Asianism”?) Because unlike our Muslim brethren, I have an open mind.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 12:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      From the Council on Foreign Relations:

      Democracies – Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Mali, Senegal

      “Nominal” Democracies lacking full protection for civil liberties – Malaysia, Nigeria, Iran, Palestine, Lebanon (fully functioning Democracy prior to the 70’s Civil War), Algeria, Pakistan, Kuwait (racist & lacks full suffrage)

      Constitutional Monarchy (where the Monarch holds actual political power alongside a parliament rather than being merely Head of State) – Jordan, Morocco, Emirates

      de facto or de jure One-Party States – Yemen, Egypt, Brunei, Oman, Mauritania (military ruled Republic)

      Least Democratic – Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia

      Failed State / No Government – Somalia

      “Because unlike our Muslim brethren, I have an open mind.” Which you demonstrate by calling people names who disagree with you, by believing Gallup polls and Wikipedia articles over people who have lived and worked in Muslim nations, and by making up off-beat facts like in post no. 49.

      The above isn’t even my opinion – these are the governments as they exist. If you’re going to talk about the trouble of Democracy, you should ask why Democracy is facing setbacks in the *Arab* world. Non-Arab Muslim countries, *on average*, do better on civil liberties than similar developing world countries (again, that statement is from the Council on Foreign Relations).

      And if you are concerned about gay rights over there, which is how this whole argument started, then you should strive to understand the situation on the ground. I’m not seeing any attempt here.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 1:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      ““Nominal” Democracies lacking full protection for civil liberties: Malaysia, Nigeria, Iran, Palestine, Lebanon (fully functioning Democracy prior to the 70’s Civil War), Algeria, Pakistan, Kuwait (racist & lacks full suffrage)”

      Lies and more lies, eh? You are shameless…In what twisted world are Pakistan, Iran, Palestine, Kuwait considered even nominal democracies? Iran is basically a theocracy, Pakistan a dictatorship on it’s way to being a theocracy and the rest are just plain ol’ dictatroships.

      “Constitutional Monarchy (where the Monarch holds actual political power alongside a parliament rather than being merely Head of State) – Jordan, Morocco, Emirates”

      In other words, they’re all dictatorships.

      “de facto or de jure One-Party States – Yemen, Egypt, Brunei, Oman, Mauritania (military ruled Republic)”.

      Um…let’s see, I believe on planet Earth that’s also known as being a dictatorship. But maybe in Bizzaro Earth where you live they’re democracies.

      The only thing that’s sweeping all these countries, including the only democracies, Turkey and Indonesia (which I forgot about earlier), is a rising wave of fanatical Islam. I know you’re trying real hard to speak up for the minority of Muslims in these countries who want some sort of democracy but how can you deny that their version of “democracy”, Turkey being the best example, is still repressive and repulsive to our way of life? I hope you aren’t getting the wrong idea…I don’t support what’s happening in Iraq. I don’t believe in having troops in Saudi Arabia…I just wanna break off all contact with their fucked up region. Bring back fortress America!

      Aug 1, 2007 at 2:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      You’re just trolling at this point.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martini-boy
      Martini-boy

      In response to your “Orientalism” question:

      Yes, “Oriental” has become a racist term. However, the “Oriental-ISM” Said speaks of is a system of thought and of coming to know the “Oriental” in his/her Colonial context (or in our case, through the War in Iraq), not only by Romanticizing him/her, but also by denigrating his/her practices, beliefs, and social circumstances for whatever generalized reason.

      In the introduction to the 25th anniversary edition published in 2004, Said speaks about how this Orientalism has indeed resurfaced after 9/11 and how, instead of dealing with Middle-Eastern and South-Asian nations as it originally did, it has become specific to nations that consists of a majority of Muslim followers.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      “You’re just trolling at this point.”

      I don’t know what that means, but it doesn’t sound good.

      “Yes, “Oriental” has become a racist term. However, the “Oriental-ISM” Said speaks of is a system of thought and of coming to know the “Oriental” in his/her Colonial context (or in our case, through the War in Iraq), not only by Romanticizing him/her, but also by denigrating his/her practices, beliefs, and social circumstances for whatever generalized reason.”

      I looked it up and will keep reading what I can on it. All western nations have a terrible history of colonialism, a history that scars many Nations to this day (see almost any country in Africa) but with the exception of Iraq, which those fucking meddling British created out of thin air for their own purposes (oil), I don’t know of many countries in the Arab world that any western power occupied for an extended period. And I don’t know that that excuses their radicalism now. The Islamists aren’t just interested in getting us infidels out of Mecca…they want us to convert or die. They seem desperate for a return to their own brand of 16th century family values.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 7:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hisurfer
      hisurfer

      Trolling – saying what ever you can to prolong a fight. Example:

      I say Egypt is a one-party state. You say I live in bizarro world for calling Egypt a democracy. Which, I didn’t. I only listed five Muslim democracies.

      I say, Iran is a “nominal” democracy without protection for civil liberties. you perhaps misunderstand the highlighted term “nominal” and call this lies. And yet I used the exact and precise term: Iran has trappings of democracy but isn’t what we call a full democracy. This is not a lie.

      Basically, you are making up things that I (and others) never said, and then accuse us of lieing. Or being poop-heads. Or whatever.

      Other things are just strange. You claim Pakistan is on it’s way to becoming a theocracy. Pakistan is currently waging a rather vicious and oppressive war AGAINST Islamists. It’s been headline news for awhile now.

      You claim Turkey’s way of life is repulsive to us. I don’t know where this comes from. Talk to someone who’s been there. I found it to be an extremely civilized and modern country.

      In terms of colonialism, the ENTIRE ME Arab world was under the domination of the Ottoman Empire for close to a millenia. The Western Powers promised the Arabs independence if they rebelled against the Ottomans (rewatch Lawrence of Arabia). They did, the West reneged at Versailles and carved up the Middle East between France and England. Kemal Ataturk’s rebellion stopped them from carving up Turkey. The Bedu have never had their own national governments until recently; they’ve always been subjects of some distant caliph or emperor.

      And you just can’t know this culture unless you’ve been there. Radical Islam is the province of intellectuals, corrupt politicians, and the desperate poor. I spent close to eight months in various countries, and it is not close to the norm. People hate al Qaeda with more passion than we do. They suffer more from terrorism, after all. We only got bombed by them once. I found more anger directed against Palestinians than I did against Americans (because they always cause so much trouble). The most serious anti-Western diatribes I heard came from French tourists. Even with the Iraq war, the consensus I found was 1) the US wants oil, and 2) the US fucked up & continues to fuck up because we don’t understand a thing about local politics. There wasn’t so much hate as smug satisfaction that we were getting our asses burned for being so arrogant. It was never “Fuck you America” (except from the French). It was generally just a sad shake of the head, followed by an invitation to dinner.

      As for gay life, it’s complicated. Key word: complicated. Western style gay rights and identity are limited. But homo-love is rampant, at least among men. Gay life is open in the urban areas of Turkey and Lebanon. There’s a gay underground railroad to get people out of Iraq now that the death squads have targetted queers. Gaydar is full of profiles for men in Egypt and Jordan. So – some places are horrible. Some not. Most are in between … and on par with most of the developing world.

      Aug 1, 2007 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • james_boston
      james_boston

      This might have been the deepest thread ever at Queerty.

      R.I.P.

      Aug 2, 2007 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Martin Annemer
      Martin Annemer

      I know I have come to this late but I want to give my experience in Turkey: homosexuality has never ever beem legalised there because there was no need to. Do your research – Turkey is one of the few countries that NEVER CRIMINALISED it in the first place. Of course this doesn’t mean gays get it good over there – but it sure aint Iran. No one gay is going to get hanged for it (legally) or is going to get prosecuted for it (unless u do it in public and that goes for straights too under public moral decency laws). In Istanbul and other main urban city areas you have gay bars and clubs, exclusive gay owned gay hotels and gay tours too (AbsoluteSultans) – and they have active gay rights movement there too – with HQs and websites (See Khaos and Lambda) – and even gay friendly real estate.

      Here’s a link:
      http://www.lambdabusiness.com/page-business.cfm?code=-&location=163&searchtext=

      They have also good gay characters on their TV drama shows (Bir Istanbul Masali/An Istanbul Tale).

      Of course this changes as you go further down south to the Kurdish dominated areas where tribal rule still exists in certain areas – but in the Westernised, urban and holiday resort areas being pink is not a problem.

      Sorry to sound like a tourist info center :)

      Nov 12, 2007 at 7:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

    Add your Comment

    Please log in to add your comment

    Need an account? Register It's free and easy.



  • POPULAR ON QUEERTY

    FOLLOW US
     



    GET QUEERTY'S DAILY NEWSLETTER


    FROM AROUND THE WEB

    !-- Sailthru Horizon -->
    Copyright 2014 Queerty, Inc.
    Follow Queerty at Queerty.com, twitter.com/queerty and facebook.com/queerty.