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QUEERTY QUERY

QUESTION: Should The LGBT Community Care About The George Zimmerman Trial Verdict?

Trayvon-MartinLate Saturday night, George Zimmerman was found not guilty by a six-person jury for the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin.

Immediately, social media erupted with Tweets and FB posts of injustice from Martin’s supporters and a restored faith in the legal system from Zimmerman’s. The case brought Florida’s controversial “Stand Your Ground” law to the forefront of discussion and the trial has dominated the cable news airwaves, igniting racial tensions in the United States for the last few weeks.

The loss of gay youths Matthew Shepard to murder and Tyler Clementi to suicide sparked large-scale conversations within the community, but it seems as if people have already stopped talking about Mark Carson, the 32-year-old gay black man who was shot and killed in New York’s West Village less than two months ago.

Some of Trayvon Martin’s supporters see the Zimmerman trial verdict as a symptom of a larger scale issue of the devaluing of black life in American society.

Are the social problems underscored by the death of Trayvon Martin and the trial of George Zimmerman relevant to our community? What say you?

By:           Rob Smith
On:           Jul 15, 2013
Tagged: , , , , , , , ,
  • 86 Comments
    • Alan down in Florida
      Alan down in Florida

      Very definitely. This disgusting ruling has opened the door for bashers to harass and attack GLBTQIA individuals and then turn around and murder them if they fight back.

      To be clear though this only applies in states with “stand your ground” laws and/or a very low standard for self-defense determinations.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 5:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tackle
      Tackle

      Queerty I’m glad you posted this and asked this question. Yes they should. Injustices are injustices regardless of race or sexual orientation. If an injustice were to happen to someone in the GLBT community, do only members of group have to care. With what happened to Matthew Shepard do only gay men have to care? The bigger factor is the human factor.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 5:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tom Blunt
      Tom Blunt

      Dear Queerty: You have correctly assessed that a recent news event is not ALL ABOUT US. The fact that this is possible must be really difficult to fathom! And yet for reasons which you yourself just cited, many of us still care a great deal.

      Perhaps probing this subject is worthy of more than a five paragraph thinking-out-loud type post? If you don’t have anything more substantial to say, respectful silence would be drastically preferable.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • balehead
      balehead

      In one word..absolutely….

      Jul 15, 2013 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tom Blunt
      Tom Blunt

      @Tom Blunt: Oh yeah, I forgot: it’s all about generating your fair share of those post-tragedy rage clicks.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 5:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jackhoffsky
      Jackhoffsky

      @Tom Blunt: There’s a difference between making it ALL ABOUT US, and just making us part of the discussion in general. We (collectively) already have to deal with stuff like the “gay panic” excuse… “stand your ground” is not that much different psychologically. The leap from one to the other is NOT that far.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 5:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rad
      Rad

      I don’t think we have to worry about it all that much. Raul Rodriguez used that “I’m feeling threatened!” defense (that he video taped himself repeating) as an excuse to use the “Stand Your Ground” law and blast holes in his unarmed neighbor.

      He got a 40 year prison sentence for his efforts, and Texas got one less piece of gun-totin’s bully scum out of the neighborhoods.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deepdow
      Deepdow

      Of course I care. Furthermore, and not to sound dramatic, but the very same people that applaud this verdict are the same ones who applaud anti-gay policy and violence.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      I’m not American and I care. The justice system has allowed a cold blooded murderer to walk free for literally no other reason than he was black and therefore in a gang, and on the rob, and armed.

      He had skittles on him, and Zimmerman murdered him in cold blood.

      The true face of the white conservatives was shown in that verdict. Just because the rule of law exists there are still mountains to climb.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • boring
      boring

      EVERYONE should care.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • boring
      boring

      In fact, even posing the question whether or not we should care is outright fucking psychotic.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      This trial has nothing to do with the LGBT community. As a human being though, should we be interested in the legal working of our country? Yes.

      The media has sensationalized and de-rationalized this case to the point of absurdity. Most people who hold such passionate opinions about this case are the very same people who have not watched the trial at all. Anyone who was following the trial knew what the outcome would be.

      This was not murder, legally speaking. Anyone who states otherwise is incorrect.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      @Deepdow: That’s not true. Your generalization is absurd.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Scribe38
      Scribe38

      @2eo: To you and most of the room thank you. Over the last day or so I have read some of the nastiest things about a child merely walking home from the store. This is not America unless we are all free. I shouldn’t have to behave in a matter that puts whites at ease. I should be able to move about my country not worrying about being molested by hateful people. My peoples labor, blood, and pain help build this f_ing country. We have as much right to it as anyone else.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • deltabadhand
      deltabadhand

      We should care and we should get involved. Even with the strides we’ve made we’re still outsiders and should band with all other outsiders to help pull each other along to rights and equal treatment under the law. I’ll be at this Saturdays protests in front of all Federal Court Buildings making sure my voice is heard in regard to the demand to change the laws and processes so people like Zimmerman can’t get away with murder in the future – and so should your,

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MikeE
      MikeE

      @Bozen: let’s see: he followed the victim despite being told by 911 dispatcher NOT to; he confronted the victim, despite being told not to by the 911 dispatcher; he shot an unarmed minor.

      I’d say that fits the definition of murder or manslaughter to a T.

      He KILLED someone. He’s a killer.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Scribe38
      Scribe38

      @Bozen: This kid didn’t do anything wrong, other than being black. He saw a guy in a car following him and he tried to get away. The same man got out of his car and went after this kid. Put yourself in the boy’s position, alone in the dark with a guy after you. Martin swung on a guy chasing him. The only reason he is dead was because the grown ass man got beat up by a kid and his manhood couldnt take it. If this was a white teen and a black adult, the case would have gone different. Black man in the white house or not, there is still r@cism in the U.S. If Martin was white he wouldn’t have been followed, wouldn’t be dead. I wish zimmerman no peace in this world or the next. His own cousin claims he touched her when she was six. HE’S a murdering P.O.S.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deepdow
      Deepdow

      @Bozen:

      Then I guess I was too dramatic. Perhaps I should have said most.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • d4divine
      d4divine

      @Scribe38: Thank you!!

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andy_d
      andy_d

      I would love to see some raging homophobe get shot for going after a memebr of the GLBT community in a “stand your ground law” state. See how fast the laws get repealed.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jared MacBride
      Jared MacBride

      It means that when a police department waits 44 days to reluctantly start collecting evidence you won’t get a conviction.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • xtincta
      xtincta

      Did the editors of Queerty fall and bump their head and all of a sudden forget that there are POC in the LGBT community? Seriously what kind of dumb ass question was that?! What you should have asked is “Should the self appointed white leaders of the LGBT community in charge of setting the agenda for what’s considered important to ALL LGBT people care about anybody of any race other than their own?”

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      @Scribe38: Your summation of events is clear evidence that you have not been following the trial. You’re basing everything on race, which is sad and incorrect.

      Take color out of it and start following unbiased media (it’s hard to find but out there I promise).

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      @Deepdow: You’re still putting people into boxes there, man. Again, saying “most” is a generalization.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      @Tom Blunt: “If you don’t have anything more substantial to say, respectful silence would be drastically preferable.”

      I have to agree with this, unfortunately. I’d have preferred Queerty had just not responded to the situation at all than to arrive late to the party with a “should we really care?” question.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      @MikeE:

      Following a stranger in your neighborhood when there’s been a string of burglaries and you’re an active member of your NW is not illegal. Martin confronted Zimmerman, and if you had been following the trial you would know that.

      He also shot an unarmed minor in self defense, because the minor was committing assault against his person, which is a felony.

      Were poor choices made on both sides? Yes, undoubtedly.
      Did George Zimmerman kill Martin? Yes.
      Did George Zimmerman murder Martin? No.
      Was George Zimmerman’s action protected by law? That’s interpretive, and the jury decided it was.

      Is George Zimmerman a murderer? Legally, no.

      Martin was 100% culpable once he put his hands on Zimmerman.

      It’s an all around sad situation. It got out of hand and should have never happened.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • deltabadhand
      deltabadhand

      I am absolutely astounded by the extent to which certain people will exhaust themselves in order to victimize a known murderer.p

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      @Bozen: I have absolutely been following the trial + I still think Zimmerman’s account of events + defense are bullshit. Regardless of how readily you seem to swallow it.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 7:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Hansolo
      Hansolo

      @2eo: I agree with you again 100 percent.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 8:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MikeE
      MikeE

      @Bozen: it IS illegal when the police tell you to back off and WAIT for the police to arrive.

      Zimmerman escalated the incident.
      HE followed the victim.
      HE profiled the victim.
      and most of all, HE shot an unarmed man.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 8:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shadeaux
      Shadeaux

      @MikeE: I agree. Seems like since he knew he had the gun, all he had to do was pull it and tell Martin to back off. Seems like he baited him so he would have a reason to shoot him. That sound more like his plan than GOD’s.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cagnazzo82
      Cagnazzo82

      I remember in the past…

      When OJ Simpson got off, there was no further attempt to trash the character of Nicole Brown or Ron Goldman.

      Fast-forward to 2013, Zimmerman gets off under similar controversial auspices, and not only does a subset of the media (mostly on the right) continue trashing the victim who was killed… But the killer’s own family goes out that night to trash the victim.

      No humility, no remorse, no reflection… it’s a tragedy on both sides no matter how you look at it, but Zimmerman’s family is 100% classless in their victory.

      They practically gave the Martins a middle-finger after winning.

      May this case go away and disappear forever. It is truly negative on ever, single, front.

      There is nothing positive to take away from this case. 101% avoidable, if the parties involves had just been smarter.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deepdow
      Deepdow

      @Bozen:

      Listen, Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Trayvon only because he thought he looked suspicious. Minutes later he shoots the child to death after a brief physical encounter. Sorry, that’s fucked up. What I’ve seen online from the people who APPLAUD the not guilty verdict strikes me as similar in tone to those individuals who express anti-gay attitudes.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cagnazzo82
      Cagnazzo82

      @Deepdow: They actually are the exact same people. The gun-rights faux-Christian right-wing crowd that celebrates the deaths of ‘undesirables’, talks up the ‘sanctity of marriage’ only in the context of gays vs straights, and only values the sanctity of life up until the moment of birth… then you’re on your own.

      They’re the exact same crowd.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deepdow
      Deepdow

      @Cagnazzo82:

      True.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      All of you guys sound just as biased and narrow-minded as the people you’re trying to discredit :(

      Not good.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jonathan
      Jonathan

      we can’t talk about other members of our LGBT community because we do not know what their thoughts are everyone thinks differently so therefore everyone will have a different response. and no we should not weather he was found guilty or innocent the verdict is the verdict and it will not change no matter how much chaos people cause all we can do is accept it for what it is and move forward as long as it is not affecting your life I personally don’t think we should care what the verdict is!

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deepdow
      Deepdow

      @Bozen:

      *Generalizing are you?

      I’m not biased by the way. I’m only concerned about reactions to things. Making observations about how historically marginalized groups are perceived in the media and by individuals who lament the “good old days” is very important in understanding why things occur and why things, really, never seem to change.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LadyL
      LadyL

      @Bozen: Speaking strictly for myself I would love to “take color out of it” but that’s not remotely possible since this was a crime about RACE AND PREJUDICE. George Zimmerman, a frustrated wannabe cop who’d reportedly made some 40-plus calls regarding “suspicious” blacks he’d seen in the course of his neighborhood patrols, can be heard on tape venting about how “they” always got away with it, and referring to Trayvon as “the suspect.”
      “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or on drugs or something,” he told the 911 dispatcher, without one shred of evidence to back up the assumptions he was making.
      And though Zimmerman had been expressly told NOT to pursue Trayvon, he did anyway, taking a loaded gun with him as he got out of his car to confront a kid whose only apparent crime was was walking along a street with dark skin while wearing a hoodie.
      Trayvon was returning to his father’s house from a convenience store with nothing more in his pockets than iced tea and candy when he was approached by a husky, hostile, and armed adult stranger. Yet his decision to resist and fight back has been characterized as a vicious life-threatening attack while the “stand your ground” law seems only to have applied to the likes of Zimmerman.
      *
      I completely understand that George Zimmerman’s attorneys were going to do their level best to twist the events of that night, making the murdered boy the predator and his killer the victim, if that’s what it took to free their client. That doesn’t mean the rest of us are obligated to buy into the bullshit.
      *
      You characterize this tragedy as a sad situation that got out of hand and should never have happened. On that point we agree– except that NONE of it would have happened had George Zimmerman not taken it upon himself to play judge, jury and executioner.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bozen
      Bozen

      @Deepdow: Dude….that wasn’t a generalization. That was an observation. I didn’t say “All gay men are the same group of poeple who like to dress as drag queens and want to legalize marijuana”. I said “All of you guys (implying the posters on -this- board) sound just as biased and narrow-minded as the people you’re trying to discredit”.

      You yourself are the ones who think that about these people, not me. I used your definitions of the people you are talking about to identify said people so you’d know who I was talking about.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deepdow
      Deepdow

      @Bozen:

      Great, have a nice night.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LadyL
      LadyL

      And in answer to Queerty’s original question–of course the verdict should matter to the LGBT community since many LGBT people are also people(s) of color–as a black lesbian I happen to fall into that category–and because when ANY of us are vulnerable to injustice ALL of us are.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TommyBr
      TommyBr

      This is all so sad. Lives ruined… The sorrow of a mother and father… I’m not a parent, so I can’t pretend to understand their grief. But I do understand love. However, the jury heard the evidence that exists, and the prosecution didn’t/couldn’t prove their case. If there is no provable case, do we really want someone to be sent to jail only because of their race? That is, as the New York Times creatively put it, because Zimmerman was a “white Hispanic”?

      Jul 15, 2013 at 10:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      @Jonathan: “as long as it is not affecting your life I personally don’t think we should care what the verdict is!”

      That’s a sort of callous way of looking at things, to say the least. Besides which, not all of us can so easily say that these laws can’t possibly have ramifications for folks like us.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 10:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dvlaries
      dvlaries

      All I had to do Saturday night was pull out a picture of myself at 17, and figure all the life not yet lived at that moment, all the promise that lay ahead, and of course we should care about this young man. The verdict was repugnant.
      *
      Martin was walking his way home, he was going about his own business, not threatening person or property. Zimmerman was told by the police to stay in his car, he disobeyed their instructions, and simply went hunting.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 10:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      @TommyBr: ” If there is no provable case, do we really want someone to be sent to jail only because of their race”

      Do you really think he was only seen as guilty because he’s ‘White Hispanic’? Yes, race played a role in our perception of his profiling Trayvon. But ultimately, I still feel Zimmerman was in the wrong beyond his race.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 10:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nyruinz
      Nyruinz

      @Jonathan:

      Spoken like a true selfish individual and there are many people who feel the same way in regards to LGBT rights!

      Jul 15, 2013 at 11:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nyruinz
      Nyruinz

      People are failing to realize this man murdered a child, and that child was unarmed at that. George Zimmerman was way over his head and had to right to pursue a child who was merely walking home.

      Jul 15, 2013 at 11:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • deacon
      deacon

      @Bozen…”this was not murder legally” I guess that makes it okay to kill unarmed black teenagers….when people make idiotic statements like that it’s because they live in world where things like that don’t happen to them, only to those other people….you know what Bozen the holocaust wasn’t genocide it was just German law that allowed 3 million jews to be killed, Hitler ruled Germany and he did set the laws at the time…..

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      There is a whole lot of foolish talk here on this thread. Let me school you all in a little bit of Florida Law, since so many of you seem to be clueless about how due process works. The defense argued that Zimmerman fired in self defense, and the state could not prove their case otherwise. Without enough evidence, those 6 jurors were given NO CHOICE, under the law, but to render an acquittal. The verdict must be based on evidence, facts, and Florida law, ONLY. Emotion, Sympathy, Prejudice has NO PLACE in the jury’s verdict. Like it or not, the jury spoke and their decision must be respected. PERIOD!

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cagnazzo82
      Cagnazzo82

      @LawDoc: Your statement means absolutely nothing.

      The law spoke in OJ’s case and he was still sued in a civil trial. There is no ‘period’.

      People like OJ, and Casey Anthony, and Zimmerman get off under controversial decisions, and the debate still goes on.

      Yes, the defense succeeded in maintaining reasonable doubt. But reasonable doubt has no bearing on whether Zimmerman lied about the encounter or not. It simply means that the jurors saw reasonable doubt. And that’s it.

      That can still be debate over the veracity of zimmerman’s claims, or the logic (or lack thereof) of his actions that night. You’re under no authority to stop that debate from going on. So spare us your ‘period’. It means nothing.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Scribe38
      Scribe38

      @Bozen: You don’t live in the world where you are profiled, looked at as if you do not belong. How many times have you been stopped by police because you look out of place? (As a rule I demand a supervisor every time a officer ask to search my car out of fear being killed on the side of the rode). I’ve gotten profile even freaking voting! (GOP members standing behind voting tables challenging votes) How many times has a woman grabbed her purse tighter seeing your dark face? Can’t tell you the number of times I have heard car doors lock as I get out of my company van. How many times have you walked the long way around a white lady in the parking lot even when your call is next to hers, because she might get scared and scream? Daily this is what black men have to deal with. Complain and its written off as black guys are just angry. Saturday I will protesting in Detroit with my hoodie and my open hands in the air showing the world one more time, I’m not a threat. Martin had a right to walk home in Peace. He had a right not to be followed and stalked. This kid was murdered, by the little man with the big gun. You not realizing it something to do with race does not change the fact.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • erikwm
      erikwm

      @LawDoc: No choice? I don’t buy the notion that Zimmerman feared for his life. We don’t know who started the confrontation, but Zimmerman knew police were on their way. A grown man, who is not disabled, should be able to defend himself in a confrontation with an unarmed 17 year old boy. Zimmerman used disproportionate force because he wanted to. Zimmerman could have shot Martin in the stomach, but he aimed directly for the heart. He should have been convicted.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      Cagnazzo82-

      Where is your J.D. from? Mine is from the University of Florida School of Law, Magna Cum Laude, 2005, and, I can assure you, my statement does mean something because it is based on the LAW. There will not be a federal civil rights case, and if the DOJ does try, they will lose. No grounds for it. As for a civil suit, Zimmerman will most likely be immune from any culpability under the Florida Statute, Chapter 776.012, “Justifiable Use of Force”. Since Zimmerman was acquitted by the jury, under this statute, he is also free from civil liability. CASE CLOSED.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      You cannot compare the OJ trial to the Zimmerman trial. OJ’s defense was not based on self defense and California’s statues are not the same as Florida’s. Completely different situation. Everyone here needs to start thinking with their heads, instead of talking out of your ass.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      @LawDoc: Your appeals to authority are worthless. Nobody give a damn about your qualifications or experiences. I certainly don’t and neither do the other educated people.

      Nobody gives any damn what a lawyer thinks about justice.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      Yeah, until you need a lawyer…LOSER!

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cagnazzo82
      Cagnazzo82

      @LawDoc: Lawyers are not interested in the truth, or ethics, or morality.

      Your main focus in life are words and letters and sentences and how best you can manipulate them to support your client.

      Outside of your narrow world, people are actually concerned about life and death and the implications of laws crafted by NRA lobbyists turning Florida into a barbarous state where pro-active self-defense is now becoming routine.

      That matters also.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      I bet your viewpoint will change one day when you need a lawyer, Cagnazzo82.

      The prosecutors in this case are lawyers representing the State of Florida. Are they not interested in “truth, ethics, or morality”? My duty is to uphold the law, even if I personally disagree with it. Any ethical attorney knows this.
      AND– For the record, never serve on a jury as you have proven here you are incapable of looking at facts and putting your emotions aside.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jwrappaport
      jwrappaport

      @2eo: You are among the more reasonable people on here, and I’m almost always in agreement with you, but I have to part with you on this.

      I think it’s important to see the bigger picture, which is to say the power relationship between a state and its people. The state has more money and experts on its side than any individual defendant ever will, not to mention it has the entire police force and political machine on its side. Consequently, the state is (as it should be) handicapped by a very high burden of proof, which is to say it must prove that a defendant met the elements of a given crime beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a very, very tall order that is not easily met.

      I watched the trial, and I have to say I think it’s more likely than not that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin. I also think it’s more likely than not that Zimmerman was the aggressor. But that’s not good enough. An absolute defense to murder and manslaughter is self-defense, which is exactly what Zimmerman argued. The state had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not shoot Martin in self-defense. It failed to do that by any reasonable measure.

      I don’t like Zimmerman, and I don’t think any fair-minded person can ignore the fact that, at the end of the day, an innocent kid is dead because Zimmerman decided to play vigilante. Further, I think that institutional racism is rampant in America, and that had Martin been white, it’s plausible that Zimmerman would not have acted. However, I do not think for one second that we should be tempted to give the state any more power to convict defendants by relaxing the burden of proof simply because it suits our intuitive notions of equity this time round. The state had a burden to sustain, and it failed. Full stop. I cannot too adamantly warn my progressive comrades of the false comfort that an adverse verdict would offer. It would stand for nothing other than that the state can now more easily exercise its coercive power against the people.

      The larger conversation should be about institutional racism, not that the trial court erred or that the process here was flawed. In the words of Robert Bolt/Thomas More: I give the devil the benefit of law for my own safety’s sake. A free society demands absolutely nothing less, and the price we pay for it is often a steep one, yet one I willingly pay. Here, that price is to see Zimmerman walk free after needlessly ending a human life.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      @LawDoc: I already work closely with legal eagles considerably smarter than anyone you’ve ever worked with. Getting a law education in Florida is like getting a lesson in freedom in North Korea.

      I’m working with an Oxford law graduate, he’s so far out of your league it isn’t even funny. He’s pissed off at the r@cism too. You don’t matter, and what you think you are is irrelevant.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jwrappaport
      jwrappaport

      @Cagnazzo82: You’re not far off the mark in some of what you say, yet I would say that adversarial proceedings and their guarantee of a vigorous defense are probably some of the most important safeguards of liberty ever conceived.

      I agree that there are plenty of formalistic lawyers and jurists (e.g., Paul Clement, Scalia, Roberts) who seem to see the law as existing in a vacuum and as some fabulously complex game in which real consequences are subordinated to legal fineries. To impugn the entire profession is, however and to use the words of a formalist par excellence, “uncommonly silly.” There are plenty of bad apples just as there are plenty of Atticus Finches out there who do actually give a damn about the policy implications of the law.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      LMAO!- Oh, you have a crystal ball? You know who I’ve worked with, what my level of experience is?? Wow- your impressive man. (not). Ask your “friend” the Oxford “law graduate” to come on here and debate Florida law with me. I’d be glad to clean the floor up with his as*.

      Go ahead, and continue to bit*h, rant, and delude yourself. Nothing YOU say, or do, matters in the outcome of this case. Until you all stop thinking of yourselves as victims of injustice, you will never reach your full potential.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      @LawDoc: “Until you all stop thinking of yourselves as victims of injustice” and there we have it. Proof LawDoc is conservative troll Avenger.

      Atypical use of the phrase, in an anti-minority anti-gay manner. Sad really, you’d think he’d have grown up by now.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • run_about00
      run_about00

      Bozen and Law Doc I applaud your courage to stand up and say something that is so “uncool” right now. The stand your ground law is what allowed this man to go free. This law essentially allows one to take the law into their own hands and that is what Zimmerman did. All of the race non-sense that is coming up feels just like a desperate attempt to create relevance where there is none.

      I am a Psychologist and did my internship in a prison. There are COUNTLESS men of color who are shot EVERY DAY and NO ONE CARES! There are countless men of color (Not just Black, sorry to inform you) that are convicted when they are innocent, and NO ONE CARES! This is a common occurrence and it makes me smile that the media was able to manipulate this to such a degree that we now have this mess.

      Also I have to wonder if there isn’t some anti-Latino sentiment unconsciously mixed into this mess? There is enormous resentment towards Latinos for illegal immigration during the past 20 years. I cant help but think this is a covert way of hating and despising a man who clearly looks Latino-and yet hiding it under the guise of a noble cause.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      “Conservative Troll Avenger” LMAO!!!

      Actually, I am a GAY INDEPENDENT VOTER, who voted for Obama in 2008 because Bush was so bad, and Palin was even worse. I am not suckered in by either party, and I think they BOTH suck and have caused much of the problems this country now faces. if you really must know..I’ve enjoyed the laughs, and lack of un-educated dialogue. I’ll leave you ‘little girls’ to cry in your pathetic diatribe. Have a lovely night, ladies.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LawDoc
      LawDoc

      run_about00- finally someone on here who makes some sense. Too bad I need to get to bed as I have a Depo in the AM. Good luck with this crew, you’ll need it.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cagnazzo82
      Cagnazzo82

      @run_about00: So on the one hand you say it’s not about race, then you backtrack by claiming it’s about anti-latino sentiment… then you claim with a broad stroke that absolutely not one single solitary person cares about innocent people being put in jail?

      And you’re a psychologist?

      Jul 16, 2013 at 3:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      @LawDoc: “finally someone on here who makes some sense”

      actually, what he just typed is the typical bullshit “people die all the time” response, with longer wording to sound impressive. not surprised that you were, though.

      “Too bad I need to get to bed”

      don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 3:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      @Cagnazzo82: @fredo777:

      In a move that should shock nobody @run_about00: and @LawDoc: are exactly the same person. The same IP is confirmed. Not surprising considering he is a so called lawyer and now psychologist. He will sign in as a sociologist next to back himself up.

      How pathetic.

      He should try “member of splc and long time voting liberal obama lover” instead.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 5:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      Notice he threw exactly the same shitfit as all 3 usernames when exposed.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 5:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • arj
      arj

      Of course the LGBT community should care, as they should about any crime whether it be black on black, black on white, or any other color combination one can imagine. This situation troubles me not just because a young black man is dead and a Hispanic man’s life is forever changed. It bothers me the way the media is driving this case. The media fanned the flames, until a special prosecutor filed charges. A trial was held, and the prosecution FAILED to convince the jurors of the man’s guilt, in fact they found him NOT GUILTY. The proof was NOT THERE. I was not there. I do not know what happened. All I (and everyone else) knows is what the media has been telling us for the past year. Zimmerman has been demonized. Martin has been angelized. The media is still salivating all over themselves as they trumpet their “we-are-still-relevant” mantra. Al Sharpton is riding this wave. This is the same bird that brought us the Tawana Brawley and Duke Lacrosse team fiascos. Meanwhile, a 46 year old man in a Cincinnati suburb died yesterday from injuries received over a year ago when he was jumped and beaten by (Horrors of Horrors) 4 or 5 teenagers of a certain ethnic background and NOT ONE sanctimonious voice is raised in the media about protest. Where’s Rev. Al? Where’s Bro. Jesse? Where is Obama? Holder? So pardon me while I don’t get all fired up regarding the Zimmerman trial. It’s certainly a shame a young man is dead, yes. Public crucifying Zimmerman will not help, only divide. But then, Rev. Al is all about that. He’s in the spotlight and has a media pulpit again. Life is good, eh, Al?

      Jul 16, 2013 at 6:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stevenw
      Stevenw

      I’m aghast that this law could even exist – there again, I live in tne UK. US gun laws make little sense to me. But Jeez, legal vigilantes? Who on earth could think that that was a good idea?

      Probably the only good that will come out of this case is getting the law changed. I’m sure it was a vote-winner amongst the (probably republican) community, but its clearly open to terrible abuse – I can’t recall a better case of the letter of the law not following the spirit of the law.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 6:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2eo
      2eo

      @Stevenw: The law will not change. America has fetishised guns to the point of nausea. The right have established through far right groups lile the NRA that making laws against guns is tantamount to treason.

      Sadly this idiotic thinking has permeated all facets of US society. They genuinely and passionately belive guns save lives. Even though all the facts prove the exact literal opposite.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 7:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Snapper59
      Snapper59

      Agree with #72.

      I read Zimmerman’s brother Robert who has been defending George has reportedly said he is gay.
      Wonder if the waiter in Oakland who got bashed in the head with a hammer last night is as well.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 9:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      Easy,

      Two guys holding hands walking home. Three guys get out of a truck with bats and bottles to attack the two gay guys.

      The gay guys happen to be good fighters and hold their own in the fight.

      One of the guys gets scared he is going to lose the fight takes out a gun and shoots the two gay guys.

      He walks because even though they were the attackers and started it, AT SOME TIME during the attack the situation changed and he got scared.

      Hell yeah this applies to us.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 10:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Harley
      Harley

      Just so we know the religious beliefs. This is from the website of Trayvon Martin’s family church. It is a cut and paste so the misspellings are not mine.

      Antioch Missionary Baptist Church of Miami Gardens.
      The death penalty was levied for: murder, adultery, breaking the Sabbath, rebellion against parents, witchcraft, sorcery, spiritism, kidnapping, and sexual perversion (including homosexuality and bestiality). Israel was supposed to learn that the wages of sin is death!! . The ten commandments is a summation of the Law. (Also referred to as the Decalogue.)

      Jul 16, 2013 at 11:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nyruinz
      Nyruinz

      If Trayvon Martin was 6’2 with blonde hair and blue eyes and bulging muscles I am sure queerty would have been devastated. It’s only a matter of time before some homophobe shoots a gay man because he allegedly “hit on him” and only then will the LGBT community feel that family’s pain. It’s good to see that you still have some gay men and women with compassion, however I tell you the selfish and self absorbed run rampant in our community. George Zimmerman’s life was not in danger, he decided to put himself in that situation when he decided to play vigilante.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 12:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Harley
      Harley

      nyruinz…

      Sorry to use you as an example. Yet this is what I see going on everywhere. I assume we both read the same brief article above. I re-read it again as well as all the comments. And not ONCE did I ever conclude that it was anything but in favor of the Trayvon Martin family and totally against Zimmerman. Yet you find it necessary to talk down to us as if it is we who pulled the trigger. But to answer the hypothetical you used (and where and how you got it, I don’t know) if a Homophobe shoots a gay man is not an IF at all. It happens time and time again. And you have never seen the sort of support from the Black Christian community and perhaps it has something to do with the Christian belief. Read the above cut and paste from the church website of the Trayvon Martin family.

      But to frame us all as “selfish and self absorbed” …….then give me some examples. Bigotry and hypocrisy are two way streets.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 1:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • run_about00
      run_about00

      @Cagnazzo82: Cagnazz I do think you make a good point. I do suspect Zimmerman has issues with non-whites, simply judging him from what little I know about his life. He married a white woman and said he was white before all this happened, when he clearly looks ethnic. More than likely he also has issues that pertain to his mothers side of the family as well.

      I have worked with numerous biracial people and there tends to be allot of internal conflict-Zimmerman fits this profile. More than likely he is prejudice. However with the stand your ground law regardless of the prejudice he was allowed to kill Martin and get away with hit. This is where people who are fixated on the race piece simply don’t seem to comprehend. It was a a law that allowed an unstable person to get away with murder.

      Also it is important for you guys to understand that acting like animals toward a person does not bring justice or closure. If you see how the protesters are acting it appears that these people are worse than Zimmerman himself. This doesn’t lend itself to an evolved appearance.

      Having said all of this I do still feel that there is anti-Latino sentiment in this case. There is so much anger and resentment towards Latinos now that it seems ironic Zimmerman would be approached with so much hatred for the simple act of hiding behind a law.

      And someone said I was the lawyer lol..I wish I was a lawyer-I would make a hell of allot more than I am making now :-)

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @run_about00: said…

      ” If you see how the protesters are acting it appears that these people are worse than Zimmerman himself. This doesn’t lend itself to an evolved appearance.
      ______________________

      Refresh my memory, how many unarmed teenaged people have the protestors shot and killed?

      Jul 16, 2013 at 2:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sass-zilla
      Sass-zilla

      If you watched Jentel’s interview on Piers Morgan, you can see she was more concerned that Zimmerman was following him because he was potentially a rapist. A gay rapist. Because she was talking with Treyvon on the phone at the time we can assume he agreed with her and that is why he was scared; not because he thought the Latino Zimmerman was white, but because he thought he was being stalked by a male rapist.

      The problems that lead up to this case; racial profiling, homophobia, underprivileged youth feeling the need to dress, talk, and act like gangster thugs, and increased fear of our neighbors are issues that should be addressed in social outreach, not through media fueled race-bating.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 3:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alan down in Florida
      Alan down in Florida

      @Cam: Thank you. I said this in response #1 before the legal cat fight broke out – almost none of which has anything to do with the original question.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DM Lewis
      DM Lewis

      @Bozen:
      I am going to completely disagree with your comments, the reason why Zimmerman was found not guilty is the vague wording of a law, that then places the circumstances leading up to shooting on trial, with only one side of this story eligible for a first hand recount.
      Zimmerman chose to follow a stranger in an area that he stated himself had a rise in burglaries, how is thd Victim in this case, Martin, you or even I supposed to be able to fathom his rationale. Who was to say that Zimmerman wasn’t going to mug his victim? How is anyone to gleam the intentions of a stranger stalking them in the early evening. Someone who spotted his “target”, got out of his car and followed him around with some nefarious plot in mind.

      Martin had every right to defend himself from possible attack, he had every right to Stand His Ground with the needto retreat, because just as Zimmerman had a legal right to pursue, Martin has a legal right to ensure his personal safety. The reason why he should have been found guilty of Manslaughter, is simple they both had every right to Stand Their Ground, so who chose to instigate the confrontation through behavior that could placed fear for personal safety in the mind of the ALLEGED agressor in the fist fight, Zimmerman.

      Jul 16, 2013 at 7:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DM Lewis
      DM Lewis

      @DM Lewis: without the need to retreat (cell phone)

      Jul 16, 2013 at 8:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nyruinz
      Nyruinz

      @Harley:

      You may interpret my posts anyway you like, however I stand by everything I said. George Zimmerman was in no position to play vigilante, If he would have allowed the authorities to pursue Trayvon Martin like the dispatcher advised him to that boy would have been alive today.

      Jul 18, 2013 at 12:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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