The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (their style guide prefers you call them that) is shocked-SHOCKED that the gay community is holding them accountable for the passage of Proposition 8. “It is disturbing that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being singled out for speaking up as part of its democratic right in a free election”, a statement from the Church reads. And truth be told, the gay community is singling out the church, which contributed an estimated 70% of the money for the Yes on 8 campaign. Queerty breaks down the talking points you’ll be hearing up until the moment jihad breaks out somewhere near St. George, Utah.
“Mormons bought Prop. 8 with their Mormon gold“: Well, yes Virginia, they did. There’s a reason that Prop. 8 was the costliest election battle in the nation this year, save for that whole Presidential thing–and that reason comes from Salt Lake. The church sent letters to members, held video conferences and called from volunteers from the pulpit to help pass Prop. 8. That still doesn’t make the website Mormons for 8, which has downloadable spreadsheets listing all Mormon Yes on 8 donors, any less creepy.
“Mormons ought to have their tax exempt status removed!“: There’s a VERY ANGRY website up called Mormons Stole Our Rights, which is calling for the church to be stripped of its tax-exempt status for preaching politics from the pulpit. It got help by being linked to by Perez Hilton, The Stranger, The Advocate blah, blah, blah and now 300,000 people have signed a petition that will never ever in a million years happen. Shockingly, the Constitution is pretty liberal when it comes to allowing preachers to say pretty much whatever they gosh darn feel like saying. Also, this tactic seems likely to muddle the waters further, only convincing more people that gay marriage would in fact, infringe on religious freedom.
“The only reason Mormons donated all this money is to get in good with the evangelical right.“: If you didn’t know already, Mormons are a very persecuted people, too. In fact, their candidate, Mitt Romney was universally reviled by social conservative candidates during the primary. Evangelicals take a dim view of the LDS, refusing to consider them Christians, which is one of the reasons why they make sure to have the name ‘Jesus Christ’ in their name. The thinking goes that if the church were to help pass Prop. 8, they’d get in good with evangelicals. Sounds plausabile on the surface, as long as you don’t know any Mormons or evangelicals. At the center of the LDS faith is the family and their motives in protecting it are genuine. That and evangelicals will hate the LDS no matter what.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
“Mormons are polygamists! Grr! Arrrgh!“: For crying out loud, stop with the polygamy thing already. Polygamy has been outlawed by the church since 1860 after the federal government threatened to put Utah under martial law and has been ever since. Yes, on a theological level, multiple marriage still has a place in the church, but your average LDS member finds the practice abhorent. In fact, one of the main problems for Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints trying to make it mainstream Mormon society is the discrimination they face from LDS members. From the Mormon perspective, who gave up their wacky marriage rights to protect the family, there’s no hypocrisy.
“If we just talk to the Mormons, they’ll understand that we just want civil rights and don’t threaten their sacred celestial marriages.“: I don’t think anyone is actually saying this, but I’m including it because it’s important to point out that not all Mormons are against gay marriage. Steve Young, former 49er and great-great-great grandson of church founder Brigham Young had a No on 8 sign on his lawn. LDS mothers of gay children held a candlelight vigil protesting Prop. 8 in Temple Square. The issue is genuinely dividing the church and tarring and feathering the whole church is just as intolerant as what Prop 8. supporters are doing. One of the reasons I was eager to leave the rally that was held in WeHo on Wednesday was that after a speaker made a long plea to remember that not all black folks voted for Prop 8., she continued by saying “The one group we should blame is the Mormon Church.”
Paul Raposo
Hmm. I never thought we’d see another homocon running Queerty. What happened, the gig at Gay Patriot not pan out, Mr. Grant?
Day one and I already can’t stand ya.
Wolf
Ditto
Nevada
Srsly. Where’d this guy come from? Is this Fox news?
willard
Sadly, there is much misinformation out there. One important point is that LDS leaders have officially stated that they have no problem with domestic partnerships. Mormons – even leaders – have no desire to deny gays the rights they deserve.
michael
This new editor might just help me move on from this site. Something is kinda repulsive here.
ggreen
Our new editor dearest Jeffrey Orlinski/Japhy Grant (was Daffy already taken?) is a Taurus. Taurus’ blow hot, they blow cold but mostly they just blow! Mass Exodus to Towleroad. Born in 1979 so he really only knows Reagan and the Bushies, Yuck
Timothy
Willard,
The “rights I deserve” are equal treatment under the law.
That you think I deserve less than a drunk frat boy who just met a dancer in Vegas and stumbled into a chapel says a great deal about your understanding of the concept of “all men are created equal”.
Tyler
@willard:
“One important point is that LDS leaders have officially stated that they have no problem with domestic partnerships. Mormons – even leaders – have no desire to deny gays the rights they deserve.”
Umm…we DESERVE complete equality, not a separate but equal status. We should not be willing to accept anything except complete equal rights under the law. Domestic Partnerships are a useless political tool to try and satiate our appetite for the complete rights we deserve.
Brian Andersen
Awesome write up! Couldn’t agree more! As a gay Mormon I don’t think we should be targeting the Mormon Church with anger and hatred, although I am quite upset with Prop 8 passing and their involvment in it’s passing. We do need to stand up, we do need to protest, we do need to make change, but protesting the Mormons won’t bring this about. Marching on our government, protesting our state leaders, working with the legal bodies that can make a difference is the key. Everyone has a right to believe as they want, even the Mormon’s who don’t believe in gay marriage. We as a gay community need to be better than them, we need to show the Mormons why we are better by not following an “Eye for an Eye” mentality. Hatred never makes change. Let’s turn our anger away from the Mormons and to our courts and CA state reps, let’s really demand the equal rights we deserve.
Nevada
Here’s how I see it:
I have Mormon friends. I will continue to give them sh*t to their face until I feel better, and yes perhaps our friendships will suffer. I am disappointed in them. Because watching someone die from a car wreck and not doing anything about it is just as bad as causing the car wreck. There are no ‘innocent bystanders’ here – not even myself as I personally probably could have done more.
“Just following orders” doesn’t work for me, either.
As the Mormons have discovered, a great thing about America is that you’re free to be a bigot – and say it loud and proud.
Another great thing is that you’re free to organize and boycott Mormon-owned businesses, petition to revoke the Mormon’s tax-free status, educate your community and reach out to other causes to strengthen your own.
But let me get back to my point; There’s this thing called accountability.
Truly, it’s nothing personal on my part. I find it hard to hate an entire ‘class’ of people because I’m not a bigot. And I do still love my Mormon friends.
But the truth of the matter is that Mormons want to be a lobbying group AND a religion. They cannot be both.
They have made clear moves into the land of lobbying. Therefore their tax-exempt status should be revoked. It’s not personal.
Not nearly as personal as their actions of hate feel to my family.
-Nevada
ChicagoJimmy
How long until they excommunicate Steve Young?
audiored
The mormons are a sick, vile cult.
They can go and do their freaky, magical salamander, child raping in some desert in Utah but stay the hell out of the lives of everyone else.
ahoke
“saying something from the pulpit” is quite different from funding $25 million to get the prop to pass. non-profit/tax exempt organizations are, by definition, NOT allowed to try to influence public policy or law.
Bob
Wow. This is so filled with factual inaccuracies that I don’t know where to begin. Yes, Japhy, the Mormon Church (I’ll call them what I want; I don’t care what their preferred moniker is) is free to preach whatever it wants. But when the church itself funds a ballot initiative, it has crossed the line set for it under IRS code. Look it up. Are you a Mormon by any chance? Or just an apologist for them?
Graham
I’m loving the angry responses to your posts, Japhy, especially the blindly prejudicial gays who think of your measured analysis of their reactionary ignorance as “conservative.” Have fun at Towleroad, boys!
Jeff
Apparently it’s a faux pas to criticize any group for their overwhelming votes for Prop 8. I guess nobody’s actually responsible for its passage! Must’ve been god’s will or something…
Japhy Grant
I guess if the LDS cut a $25 million dollar check and memo’d it “Pass Prop. 8” the “Strip the LDS of its tax exempt status!” campaign might work, but the money came from individuals, which is you know, not at all illegal.
brak
@Brian Andersen:
no such thing as a gay mormon silly kid
John (yet another John)
What about the misleading advertising making gays out as little more than parasites? They don’t have to support our rights. They can fight us to keep us from having our rights and I’ll still respect them. But if they lie and slander us, we should raise holy hell! I say let’s have Stonewall II. What do we have to lose? Their actions are the cause of the kind hatred that leads to attacks. No more sissy bullshit. Yell, scream and protest!
Darth Paul
Audiored is funny.
While I don’t see gay marriage as a necessity, I support putting a weirdo nationalist cult in its place.
One bad aspect of this, though, is that Catholics and Baptists all over CA are probably wetting their panties at 2 of their greatest enemies expending each other.
Joan
I’m pissed as hell at the Mormons for funding Prop. 8, but people, CALIFORNIANS PULLED THE LEVER TO VOTE FOR IT. Why all the calls for boycotting Utah, and none for boycotting California?
jm
OK, this whole thing really has been like being in a twilight zone. I have always seen marriage as a symbol of our existence. Our existence which would not be if it weren’t for the union of one man and one woman. Changing that symbol to two yins or two yangs instead of keeping it yin and yang is just lopsided to me. It diminishes the respect that should be had for the creative power. Gay people should be allowed all the same rights as anyone else. Just because I see marriage as a yin/yang situation doesn’t make me hateful or discriminatory. That is just how I have always viewed things. When gays say they are being treated like second class citizens because they aren’t included in the legal definition of marriage, I have a hard time understanding it. I would agree that committed gay partners are being treated like 2nd class citizens if they can’t see their partner in the hospital or if they can’t have the same child custody rights and things like that. But if a civil union contained the same rights as a marriage, then shouldn’t that be a good thing? Even if a husband and wife were unable to have children, shouldn’t their union be still be called a marriage because of what it symbolizes? Marriage isn’t just a symbol of love and commitment. It is a symbol of the creation of life, the creation of our own existence. Does that not deserve some honor and respect? Can’t any gay people understand that a lot of us see marriage this way – as a symbol of creation, a symbol of our existence. This view of marriage doesn’t need to undermine any gay cause or right.
Roymondo
I’m a Mormon. I’m straight and I agreed with the passing of Prop 8. (Go ahead and H8 me for it) I was shocked to see this article. It is extremely accurate and the author should be applauded in reporting correct facts. Although the author and I don’t agree, at least he has the respect to clearly state the facts, and not propoganda like, “The mormons are a sick, vile cult. They can go and do their freaky, magical salamander, child raping in some desert in Utah but stay the hell out of the lives of everyone else.” Which is ironically quite h8 filled, bigotted language. How about up until 1978 when it was still legal to kill a Mormon in Missouri? How about when our leader Joseph Smith died at the hands of a mob who killed him and his brother in cold blood, while under the protection of the government. What about when a few days ago another angry mob vandalized our most holy temples and churches. You want to talk about bigotry? When the Mormons moved to Utah, Utah was not part of America because the government kicked them out. All this for practicing their religion peacefully. Now you going to tell me about bogotry? You’re going to ridicule my cherished religious beliefs because I don’t agree with you on the definition of marriage? Go protest in Compton and East LA you whiny, pompous, demanding hypocrits. That’s who took your so called “civil rights” away. Go accuse the blacks of taking your “civil rights” away and see how much respect your privledged white faces get.
Mike
I believe that it is a bit naive to believe that any religious organization that is rooted in Fundamentalism supports any GLBT right; it simply goes against everything that they believe in. At this moment in time they lie and say that they support domestic partnership, because if they didn’t the public would view them as the freedom hating institutions that they are, whether they be Mormon, Evangelical, Catholic, etc. Tactically, for now they suggest that they don’t have an issue with the rights of, say, hospital visitation, but their goal truly is to roll back any rights that the GLBT currently has in any state. They wish to gain a foothold, which they are doing very well now, and then slowly erode the protections, civil rights and liberties of anyone or anything that stands in the way of achieving their world view. It is just that simple, though I do agree that there was a significant push here in CA in the anticipation of a Romney run in 2012.
Brian Andersen
There is such a thing as a gay Mormon. I’m one. My Bishop and church membership knows that I’m gay, they know that I’ve been in a relationship with a man for 8 years (not much a kid anymore, sorry) and I am still a member of the Church. I haven’t been Ex’d yet. My Bishop didn’t feel it was right. So in all sense of the word, I’m a gay Mormon. (And so is my partner, FYI. He has yet to be Ex’d as well.)
Alexa
@Darth Paul:
And there you have it, one of the reasons throwing blame around isn’t helpful. God knows, I’m pissed at the amount of money the Mormons, Knights of Columbus, etc. spent to eliminate our basic civil rights in California, but the anger should be spent constructively – demonstrations FOR our rights not AGAINST a church, fighting the amendment in the courts, explaining the facts to ignorant straight people worried about what gay marriage would mean to them. But if you really want to lay blame, well, that should have been done better before the election, we might not be in this mess now if it had been. And what about the 30% of gays in CA who couldn’t be bothered to vote? Their votes could have made a difference as well. There’s a hell of a lot of blame to go around if you really want to waste time and energy on it. Anger is good, just channel it usefully.
pixel105
Here are the facts. I’m the director of the recent documentary Banking on Heaven, about the Mormons & polygamy.
The Mormon Church is a CULT and their members think like CULTISTS. You might be surprised to know that most polygamists are more open-minded than Mormons, and more intelligent. Mormons will
wake up when they’re leaders tell them to and not a day sooner. Like
polygamists, Mormons do exactly what they’re told to do.
Go after their 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, like the gov’t threatened to
do when Mormons refused to give blacks the priesthood. Hit Mormons in
their pocket books, they’re very vain and very greedy. And very very
delusional. DON’T BLAME THE VICTIMS – GO AFTER THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE.
Mormons spend 20 million on Prop 8 and nothing to help women and children escaping polygamy – pretty dumb, right. That’s because their leaders want to be in the SPOTLIGHT, they’re very NARCISSISTIC. THEY WANT TO RECRUIT MORE MEMBERS TO PAY TITHING – they’re going for the Palin crowd, the bigots, the haters. It’s all about MONEY. Check out this clip: http://www.bankingonheaven.com/
mama
Just because Japhy doesn’t cry a lot and trys to be objective doesn’t make him conservative. Jesus, get a grip guys.
Gay Numbers
Some corrections to editors statements:
a) ORGANIZED ACTION VERSUS SINGULAR
Mormons when people talk about them refers to the fact it is an organized religious group. Unlike say “the blacks” the Mormons has a different meaning. One relating to the fact the “blacks” are not an organized force. When the Mormon church gets behind someting their entire faith is because they pay money to continue the organization structure that permitted the financing of Yes on 8.
b) MORMON POWER
The Mormons are not now being prescuted by anyone, especially in western states like Utah and Arizona, where they tend to influence politics toward the far right.
c) DONATIONS
The letter they sent out has especially meaning since per their religion all members must give 10 percent of income- is this not true?
d) FREE SPEECH
These arguments are cute, but b.s. The constitution gives them the right to say what they want. The constitution does not require that we pay for their speech. Tax exemption gives them a subsidy from the government to bankroll gay marriage bans. You maybe okay with that. I am not.
e) Polygamy
Yes, they outlawed it, but still give a wink and nod to it. Indeed, they only in the late 1970s stopped perceiving of African Americans as cursed by God.
f) Your last comment is a strawman. You include it because its a distraction. Good luck with the new job.
Roymondo
@pixel105:
Pixel? Are you mentally ill? You state that “here are the facts” yet you give no facts at all…i.e.
The Mormon Church is a CULT and their members think like CULTISTS. (Your opinion)
most polygamists are more open-minded than Mormons, and more intelligent. (Your opinion)
Mormons will wake up when they’re leaders tell them to and not a day sooner. (Once again your opinion)
Like polygamists, Mormons do exactly what they’re told to do. (Mormons are taught to pray and ask God if what they are told is true and correct)
Go after their 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, like the gov’t threatened to do when Mormons refused to give blacks the priesthood. (this is a totally outrageous claim and never happened. I’m curious where someone working on a documentary got this “fact”)
Hit Mormons in their pocket books, they’re very vain and very greedy. And very very
delusional. (And all homosexuals are pedophiles..right? No H8 filled speech here huh? Who’s delusional?)
Mormons spend 20 million on Prop 8 and nothing to help women and children escaping polygamy. (Once again a very, very, outrageous claim. The members, not the Church, spent the money. I personally know a wealthy Mormon friend who feeds and houses hundreds of outcast polygamist “lostboys”. The Churches welfare program is second-to-none and If there is any group helping to support these people it is the LDS Church)
Once again I applaud the author for his suprisingly accurate portrayal of Mormons. I am a lifelong Mormon who has worked in many capacities of the Church, so don’t tell me what I believe. Your comments clearly show who is less intelligent here. I look forward to your “documentary”. Is it a comedy?
Gerard Priori
The only lesson I see from all this so far from so-called leaders in the gay community is that it is not acceptible to call a spade a spade anymore.
The Mormon church is a cult (I’ve never seen a religion that isn’t a cult, so they’re all equal in that regard). They’re free to believe whatever they want, but the religion is so obviously false that I find it impossible to believe that any adult not brainwashed from birth into believing such twaddle can take it seriously. It’s one big conjob from start to finish. True though that may be, it’s entirely beside the point of the issue, which isn’t one of religious freedom or if the claims of any given faith hold up to scrutiny.
The Mormons and Catholics (as well as other religious groups) are very much responsible for the funding of Prop 8 and should accept the blame for thir bigotry.
As Kathy Griffin said of Jesus, the Mormons can suck it. The only thing the churches have accomplished here is to ignite the anger that will mobilze the complacent into action to fight for our righs.
You’re entitled to your religion. I want no part of it. And by no part I mean that you cannot use the force of law just because your imaginary friend doesn’t like my relationships.
Gay Numbers
@Roymondo: Yes because we are going to trust a member of an organization that tried to extort money from no on 8 backers.
rayrayj
Wow. This story seem to completely miss the point on so many levels. It’s as if the writer never researched a news story, before or now.
Ralph
I don’t believe making the list of everyone who contributed to Yes on 8 is in any way “creepy.” I fully expect any petition I put my name to to be public knowledge. It’s keeping any list like that secret that creeps me out. If an individual doesn’t want their name linked to a donation to a cause like Yes on Prop 8, they shouldn’t donate in the first place.
And religious groups always skate a fine line when commenting on any political issues. It’s fine to have an open discussion about a topic with your congregation, but to organize a movement in favor of (or against) any ballot measure from the pulpit, and use church monies to do so, is stepping FAR over the line that separates church and state. If their involvement in this is as deep as everyone believes, they should have their tax exempt status revoked immediately.
Mike
This is where identity politics gets the gay community. For years, conservatives have accused gays of hatching plots and executing secret agendas with our money and influence. But as soon as something doesn’t go our way, we scapegoat in return, lump them all together and attempt to chase them out of town.
The significance of the Obama campaign was that he resisted easy scapegoating, looked inward and found shared desires among disparate groups. Congrats to Japhy for trying to do the same and resisting the easy targeting of blacks and Mormons.
The rest of you sound like Nazis.
casey
this whole ‘article’ reminds me of a night i met several Log Cabin members at my local gay bar—gays that give money to the Republican Party—people who would rather spit on us than give us a place at the table. the Republicans don’t even accept their donations, yet they still lobby for them. it’s just sick. gay’s self hatred has to stop, and from the tone of this blog, it’s alive and rampant here. first time i’ve read this blog, and it will be the last. i’ll stand up for YOUR rights even if you won’t do the same for me. i’m 51 years old, and trust me, you don’t want life to go back to what it was like in the 70s or 80s, MY coming of age period. we need to FIGHT until we have every single right the straight community enjoys. and fuck the Mormons. i’ll be protesting Wednesday night in NYC. see ALL new yorkers there please.
Bob
Yeah, we’re Nazis. It’s sooooo wrong of us to place blame at the communities that stripped us of our rights and the churches that enabled it. Bad gays! Bad gays! Go back to your closets and shut up! As if, Mike.
fredo777
I have to say, we are not casting ourselves in the best light when we cry out against prejudice + discrimination, then follow that by prejudice + generalizing an entire group of people.
As Japhy said, there were some Mormons who were protesting on our behalf + trying to get their church to stop promoting Yes On 8. It isn’t fair to attack all Mormons based on the actions of some. Get specific. And make only those particular parties responsible for this Prop 8 passing accountable.
I, for one, don’t have a problem with respecting + allowing persons their own religious freedom. As I’ve said, though, I do have a big problem with their religious beliefs being used to justify removing my rights. At any rate, making the Mormons the target of our ire + vitriol isn’t going to further our causes + will only paint we LGBT people as the religion-hating, Godless folk that we are often stereotyped as.
In order to bring about the change (buzz word!) that we need, we’re going to have to have support from a diverse group of allies. Wherever we can get it from.
X-POLYGAMIST WIFE
@Roymondo:
Roymondo, are YOU mentally ill? Maybe not, but YOU ARE A LIAR.
The only man helping the Lost Boys on the level you speak is Dan Fischer of Diversity Foundation, and Dan is NOT A MORMON.
The Mormon church does NOTHING to help women and children fleeing polygamous sects in UTAH. I personally went to the polygamy summit in St. George and asked every non-profit on the panel if they received ANY DONATIONS from Mormons and they all said NO. I asked the non-profit panel if any Mormon communities were involved in helping polygamists in any way, and they ALL said NO. The only exception I’m aware of are a few Mormon families who housed a few boys when the Lost Boys scandal hit prime-time news, but it was only a lame effort at best to save face.
If the Mormon Church gave half the money they spent on Prop 8 to The HOPE Organization in St. George, Elaine Tyler would have the resources she DESPERATELY needs to help women and children fleeing polygamy, especially victims of Warren Jeffs’ FLDS pedophiles in the twin cities of Colorado City and Hidale, Utah.
I’ve seen the film BANKING ON HEAVEN and Utah’s Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says in the film, “For 50 years Utah and Arizona did NOTHING” and AG Mark Shurtleff is a Mormon. HELLO.
Gays should unite with BANKING ON HEAVEN filmmakers and expose the Mormons who SPREAD AMERICA’S WEALTH to corrupt polygamist who practice tyranny over women and children. The FLDS alone receives 25-30 million a year in taxpayer handouts, and the FLDS only represent 10-20% of Mormon polygamists.
And yes, the Mormons do have their own internal welfare system, it’s called DESERET INDUSTRIES, but you only qualify if you’re a Mormon in good standing. Deseret Industries DOES NOT offer food and assistance to escaping polygamists, and that’s a fact jack.
For those who want to view the 5-min trailer of BANKING ON HEAVEN, it will blow your mind!!!
http://www.bankingonheaven.com/
Eric
It’s very possible that the elderly leadership of the LDS Church have long memories. After all, they were around during the days when radical gays were virulently opposed to that patriarchal, oppressive hetero institution of marriage — and sorta stated that they wanted to see marriage destroyed.
The younger generation isn’t aware of that, but those old geezers are. And folks wonder why they think marriage is in danger…?
Helen
Gotta say you guys have some interesting tactics. All these years the Mormon Church has been reviled — or at best on the fringe of acceptability — and in a couple of days you make them heroes.
Furthermore, folks that once saw gays as nice benevolent people are now having second thoughts. If they didn’t buy the threat to religious liberty argument the first time, they are surely considering it now.
Sean
That media shot of an elderly woman being surrounded and shouted at definitely was not cool. It has probably done as much damage as the SF mayor saying, “Like it or not…”
Darth Paul
Thanks, Alexa. That’s probably the most intelligent, rational, and applaudable comment on this article.
Miley Crisis
Hey! you got them talking Japhy!! Well done. Usually i just see this many posts about Morning Goods.
mark
The dumb take LDS tax exempt notion or another dumb idea of banning Mormon marrage initiatives won’t work and make LGBTs look ineffective. Boycotting Utah products and tourism in it’s ENTIRETY is a simple backlash that WORKS.
Gays and Lesbians let Utah residents show their disapproval of the LDS elders meddling in another States marriage laws, and costing them possibly 6 billion dollars in tourism. We hurt Colorado tourism at a loss of revenue over 40 Million.
Put our pressure on Sundance Film Festival attendees, and sponsors to move the festival out of Utah this year. Make ski resorts like Park City and Alta un-chic, and have skiers go to Colorado this year.
mark
Hit LDS in Utah which will always be the heart of their church, and where Mormon political strength is the least dilluted by non Mormon voters. If we hurt LDS in UT, they STAY HURT.
mark
Since LDS members can effortlessly cough up 22 Million to sh*t on the things most sacred to CA gays/lesbians…OUR FAMILIES.
Then they can cough up 400 Million so none of the residents in UT feel the loss of tourism.
Carol
BOB:
The Mormon Church did not fund the ballot initiative. You see, the LDS church only encouraged members to become involved in the matter. It was individual members who contributed to Prop 8, just as individual members contributed to the opposition.
Despite all that Mormon money, the opposition to Prop 8 was better funded, pretty much canceling it out. And it’s not like the electorate had guns to their heads in the voting booth. Thirty other states have voted the same way without the Mormons involved period. That’s where people are “at” on this issue.
Except for large urban areas, California is much more socially conservative than many people like to recognize. And as was mentioned, it was not important enough for a significant percentage of gays to even show up — although maybe they “did” show up to vote and just did not vote as you thought they “should.” Not all gays are for gay marriage, after all….
You can’t escape from the fact that even Obama supporters voted for Prop 8, which makes me wonder why you are not out protesting him? Obama has stated he is against gay marriage after all. In fact, his position is not all that different from the LDS Churches: civil unions. The same position, but without the change to the constitution, which means what exactly…?
Pretty wishy washy, that guy….
Bitch Republic
If you’re going to be attempting to use the LDS Church’s style guide for the correct name of the church, then refer to it as: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you were close but not right.
But since it really pisses them off to be called the Mormon church, I think everyone should continue to call them that.
Also, they stopped practicing polygamy in 1890, not 1860.
You need a copy editor.
fredo777
@Carol: “Pretty wishy washy that guy”
hah
Yes, blame the guy who said he’d “vote no on the proposition” as opposed to the church that encouraged its members to not only vote Yes on Prop 8, but donate their time + efforts to getting others to do the same.
While I don’t think all Mormons are at fault (since some were against Prop 8), it is silly to suggest that the LDS church is not at fault because they didn’t directly donate the money but got their members to do the dirty deed instead.
Carol
Mark,
Utah was a barren desert when it was settled by Mormon settlers who had been driven from their homes again and again. Mormons have a long history of enduring persecution and would do so again. They might even get a kick out of it. The only people you will drive out of Utah by an economic down-turn (if your boycott were to amount to much) are the whinier of Utah’s growing population of non-Mormons, returning it to a much more homogeneous religious block.
I would also guess that Prop 8 sympathizers from other states might pick up the slack caused by any formal boycotts. No offense, but as you saw, there are more of them than there are of you.
I understand your frustration, but I think that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Deep breaths and all that….
Paul Raposo
Yes, blame the guy who said he’d “vote no on the proposition” as opposed to the church that encouraged its members to not only vote Yes on Prop 8, but donate their time + efforts to getting others to do the same.
Uh, Fredo777, both Obama and the LDS believe marriage should only be between a man and a woman.
Why should Obama supporters vote no on Prop 8, when the man they worship and voted for believes that marriage should not include LGBTQ’s?
Paul Raposo
I understand your frustration, but I think that you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Deep breaths and all that….
You’re right, Carol. We should all just sit back and wait for the gov’t to fix everything. Just like they fixed the gays in the military issue; and DOMA; and EDNA; and the Mathew Shepherd hate crimes bill and all the other things that all those liberal and tolerant straights said they would fix.
Carol
Fredo777:
I am merely correcting the repeated assertion that the LDS Church funded Prop 8.
I think you are picking and choosing what you wish to believe regarding Obama. It should be evident that he is not a reliable ally, but a prize fence-sitter. I am pretty sure you must have heard his statements on gay marriage.
X-POLYGAMIST WIFE
Carol is right because most Mormons do exactly what their leaders tell them to do, just like the polygamists.
John
@Carol:
Really?
What would you do if you were running as pres? Longterm thinking or the short term??
But ah, this aint about Obamz as he’s running to rule the most powerful and conservatively complicated country in the world (that should be a continent!)…
It’s about a church called the Mormons who grew out of Utah…
fredo777
@Paul Raposo: Because Obama’s own personal beliefs don’t dictate that we should remove certain constitutional rights from a group of people, as he also stated.
As for that “worship” line, I’m going to just overlook that.
rick
in other news the jews are really mad at the mormons because they are still baptising holocaust victims even though they mormons said they would stop it. and, they are evidently marrying dead people. this church is a cult just like all the others and it needs its tax exempt status revoked.
Mike
I am a Mormon. Here are a few verifiable facts you should all consider:
1. The Church did not donate a dime…individual Mormons did, along with millions of others…republicans, democrats, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, etc…
2. All Churches and people have a right to say and believe whatever they want. To suggest that somehow the Church was out of line for speaking out on this issue seeks to deny freedoms of religious expression. It is tyrannical to try and silence someone just because you happen to disagree with them.
3. I or my Church do not hate gays. We don’t hate anyone. Just the opposite. Your campaign has sought to paint this issue as completely antagonistic towards gays, when all we are trying to do is uphold an ideal and value we hold very dear – Marraige and Family, which you seek to completely revolutionalize, change its very definition, in fact. I reserve the right to respectfully disagree with you, but still love and appreciate you as a human being, fellow citizen, or brother/sister. I would only expect similar treatment in return.
4. There are Mormons who voted no on Prop 8, decidely a minority I’m sure, but nonetheless. To persecute all Mormons generally would equate to prejudice and bigotry.
Bottom line: We disagree, but should still respect eachother.
Carol
Paul Raposo,
Well, I am not a believer that the government fixes anything and would prefer it were out of most things. I just think these violent protests are not the way to win friends and influence people, especially when you seem to need public opinion on your side. This sort of thing just makes people dig in their heels.
I think the problem, essentially, is that a conflicting right was exposed when a few gays decided to sue churches and thereby exposed a tangible threat to religious liberty. The only reason that there is a conflict is that marriage is not the proper role of government period. Marriage is a covenant between God and man, a religious issue, which is why churches protect it so vigorously. Civil unions are the role of government, which we sorta enter into when we get a marriage license.
What a crock
Wow, already censoring those who disagree with you. Now there is a writer that is sure of his extremist views.
Censor all you want. Mormons still suck.
The paid for and bought bigotry and now you, Japhy Gant are trying to throw it back in our face. Pathetic.
Roymondo
I am active LDS and was at Church yesterday. There really wasn’t much conversation at all about the events at the Temple and about the passing of 8 in general. My point being that the big Mormon caravan keeps on rolling full steam ahead. We’ve had a few nips on our heels (i.e. vandalized Churches and demeaning language) but that’s what makes us stronger. Mormons are taught that there is opposition in all things. We literally believe and are taught that there is a God and that there is also a Satan. We are also taught that the Family is a divine institution designed by God to “multiply and replenish the Earth” so that “we might find joy in our posterity”. The traditional Family is the bedrock of our lives as Mormons and we view redefining marriage as the very real forces of evil in contention with the very real forces of good. We absolutly love and respect Gay people and support any type of union they want other than traditional marriage. Why? Because it isn’t traditional marriage. No where in history has gay marriage been the accepted norm. Homosexuality has been around from the beginning of time, but so have God fearing people who disagree with it. Both sides have a “civil right” to vote on the issue in our Country. The abusive language and vandalism to our Churches (4 in Utah last night) is threatening our civil rights to vote. It’s intimidation and it’s wrong. We respect your right to vote also and when the issue was placed on the ballot the voice of California (not 4 activist judges) said NO to Gay marriage. That’s the breaks. I didn’t necessarily want Obama. Do I riot? Do I accuse blacks of blindly voting for him because of his race? No, because those are the breaks. That’s how America works, get used to it. Once again, I want to applaud the author for reporting accurately on this article. It’s refreshing to know that although we disagree at least he took the time to research the facts and give an honest report. Following his example is how Gay people win friends and influence people.
ggreen
Mormons Prefer to be called LDS even though they cafeteria pick what they do and don’t believe about Jesus they are not Christians. They do not have churches they have temples that are CLOSED to anyone that is not Mormon.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
No, we won’t get used to it. The majority should not have had the opportunity to deny rights of the minority, which is why the judges granted gay marriage rights in the first place.
Call them activist judges all you wish, but their decision was absolutely just. It was the decision to not allow the majority to impose their religious views on the minority, denying them equal marriage rights. Bottom-line: civil unions do not afford same-sex couples all of the same rights that marriages do. Period. Hence, the judges stepping in + granting gay Californians those same rights + opportunities that they should be afforded + (let’s face it, considering the relatively close loss we just experienced) will again be afforded in the future.
By the way, the Prop can’t remove the rights already granted + there are still thousands of gay couples that will continue to be married in Cali. So, get used to that.
Paul Raposo
There really wasn’t much conversation at all about the events at the Temple and about the passing of 8 in general.
I guess you didn’t get the press releases that the LDS released? Just because they aren’t talking about it in the pulpit, doesn’t mean they aren’t talking about it.
My point being that the big Mormon caravan keeps on rolling full steam ahead. We’ve had a few nips on our heels (i.e. vandalized Churches and demeaning language) but that’s what makes us stronger.
And when our boycott of Mormon owned businesses and of Utah itself, let’s see how far that big caravan gets.
We literally believe and are taught that there is a God and that there is also a Satan.
Good, considering Mormon’s acted quite un-Godly in supporting prop 8 and demonstrated they’re inherent evil in removing equal rights.
We are also taught that the Family is a divine institution designed by God to “multiply and replenish the Earth” so that “we might find joy in our posterity”.
Mormons aren’t the only people with families. The only difference is, no one spent 20 million to eliminate the existence of your families.
…we view redefining marriage as the very real forces of evil in contention with the very real forces of good.
Do you really see yourself as goodly, Roymondo? Evil is making the lives of newly married people illegal. And you will pay when you meet your maker.
We absolutly love and respect Gay people and support any type of union they want other than traditional marriage.
Lies. You support telling other law abiding, tax paying citizens what they may, or may not do.
Why? Because it isn’t traditional marriage.
The world hasn’t had traditional marriage in centuries. When women are no longer bought and paid for with sheep, or goats; when wives aren’t used as chattel in loans and business dealings; when daughters aren’t promised to wealthy men in exchange for land, or titles, traditional marriage has not taken place.
No where in history has gay marriage been the accepted norm.
It was by Christ.
Homosexuality has been around from the beginning of time, but so have God fearing people who disagree with it.
If you fear God, why are you attacking gays?
Both sides have a “civil right” to vote on the issue in our Country.
But only one side had millions to throw at the cause and the power of the pulpit to instill fear.
The abusive language
Don’t preach about abusive language considering what was said in the pro Prop 8 advertising about gays.
and vandalism to our Churches (4 in Utah last night)
Considering Mormons blew each other up in the early eighties, I have no doubt the vandalism was committed by the LDS themselves.
It’s intimidation and it’s wrong.
The LDS wrote the book on intimidation.
We respect your right to vote also and when the issue was placed on the ballot the voice of California (not 4 activist judges) said NO to Gay marriage.
The said YES to hate.
I didn’t necessarily want Obama. Do I riot?
Nope, you just called for his death and accused him of being a terrorist while Palin and McCain watched on.
Following his example is how Gay people win friends and influence people.
In other words, we need to get down and beg and grovel before you?
mark
Carol I don’t need a Mormon HISTORY lesson, the entire maternal half of my family are Mormons in Salt Lake City and Vegas. My great grandfather at 5 yo WALKED from NYC with his adopted Morman family to UT (his mother and infant step sister rode in a small cart)in the third wave of Mormons. My great grandmother and her family were in UT even earlier. My grandparents are married in the temple, my mother was baptised hundreds of times in proxy for children who didn’t live to be 8 yo. I was blessed Mormon and at 4 yo my mother converted to my father’s faith.
I knew my great grandparents they lived into their mid 90s. So save your history for someone ELSE.
btw the hundreds of cousins and one surviving aunt love and respect me as openly gay. The ELDERS of the LDS church are the ones who cause this HATE spewing, and it’s not their first HATEFEST, they did the same to women fighting for ERA and Blacks they called the Mark of CAIN, (decendents of the first murderer), and banned them from the preisthood until the 70s after two major lawsuits from the NAACP.
Paul Raposo
Because Obama’s own personal beliefs don’t dictate that we should remove certain constitutional rights from a group of people, as he also stated.
Lovely. He also stated that he does not believe gays should be permitted to marry. Voters merely followed his lead. He gave them permission o vote for hate.
As for that “worship” line, I’m going to just overlook that.
Worship of Obama parrots much of the worship we see from religionists. My statement stands.
Paul Raposo
1. The Church did not donate a dime…individual Mormons did, along with millions of others…republicans, democrats, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, etc…
Bankers didn’t steal a dime, they just convinced Americans to borrow more than they could afford. But banks are still being paid billions in tax payer monies for bail outs.
2. All Churches and people have a right to say and believe whatever they want. To suggest that somehow the Church was out of line for speaking out on this issue seeks to deny freedoms of religious expression. It is tyrannical to try and silence someone just because you happen to disagree with them.
America has a separation of church and state. The gov’t will stay out of your business, if you stay out of theirs. The LDS didn’t honor this deal and therefore, it must end.
It is our freedom of speech to speak out against the LDS, Mike and we will.
3. I or my Church do not hate gays. We don’t hate anyone. Just the opposite.
You don’t work to overturn the equality of other people when you like them, Mike.
Your campaign has sought to paint this issue as completely antagonistic towards gays,
And your campaign painted us as perverts and monsters. Don’t pretend to be innocent, when your side lowered the bar with your advertising campaign.
when all we are trying to do is uphold an ideal and value we hold very dear – Marraige and Family, which you seek to completely revolutionalize, change its very definition, in fact.
And you seek to destroy our families. You want to uphold straight families and tear apart gay families.
Mormons did not invent marriage, and you have no right to decide who may, or may not participate.
I reserve the right to respectfully disagree with you, but still love and appreciate you as a human being, fellow citizen, or brother/sister.
Again, you don’t work to over turn the equality of other people when you like them, Mike.
4. There are Mormons who voted no on Prop 8, decidely a minority I’m sure, but nonetheless. To persecute all Mormons generally would equate to prejudice and bigotry.
Just as you persecuted all gays as perverts and monsters who would force children to watch gay marriage ceremonies, Mike.
Bottom line: We disagree, but should still respect eachother.
Too little, too late, Mike. When we bankrupt the LDS, you will see what real hard times look like. Your side started this, not our side.
Mike
I’m sorry Paul, but do we know eachother? You make some pretty bold assumptions about me personally…
John
@Paul Raposo:
Posted: Nov 10, 2008 at 7:09 pm
I AGREE with THAT post.
Brilliant!
@Paul Raposo:
That, I don’t AGREE at all.
Like I keep on saying, think longterm….longterm…
Paul Raposo
I just think these violent protests
What violence? All these protests have been peaceful.
are not the way to win friends and influence people, especially when you seem to need public opinion on your side.
We’ve been nice and polite since 1992 and all it got us was DADTDP; DOMA; a failed EDNA; no hate crimes legislation.
This sort of thing just makes people dig in their heels.
Then we’ll dig in our heels and fight and spend and protest until someone fianlly breaks. Its time for liberals and progressives to stop acting like cowards and state now who they support–equality for all Americans, or second class status for a certain segment.
I think the problem, essentially, is that a conflicting right was exposed when a few gays decided to sue churches and thereby exposed a tangible threat to religious liberty.
Who sued churches? I appreciate your imagined victim mentality, Carol, but we live in the real world.
Religious liberty? Your religion is protected by the Constitution. No one can change that. What we wanted was a place at the table and the all powerful church decided nay, we shall not have any. If you believe for one minute the church in America is weak, just witness what happened with Prop 8. If gays had as much power as anti-gay hets claim we have, we would not have DOMA.
The only reason that there is a conflict is that marriage is not the proper role of government period.
Odd, since it was churches who forced the gov’t to get into the marriage business in the first place.
Marriage is a covenant between God and man, a religious issue, which is why churches protect it so vigorously.
Bullshit. Marriage is between two consenting adults. God, the church, has no bearing on it, unless those two people want it to. The church however has decided that it should stick its nose in everyone’s business–secular and otherwise. The church does not own the word marriage, nor the marriage rights spoken during a ceremony. Marriage is public domain.
Civil unions are the role of government, which we sorta enter into when we get a marriage license.,
This is nothing more than your opinion.
Paul Raposo
I’m sorry Paul, but do we know eachother? You make some pretty bold assumptions about me personally…
Your writings speak volumes about you, Mike. To read you, is to know you.
Paul Raposo
That, I don’t AGREE at all. Like I keep on saying, think longterm….longterm…
I’m sorry, John, but Americans waited eight years with Clinton and what did that get you? Will Obama be any different? I really do doubt it.
I’m making a prediction here and now: In four years America will still have DOMA, DADTDP; no EDNA and no Matt Sheaperd bill. Everyone else will be better off, except LGBTQ’s–we will be in the same exact spot we are at today.
Carol
Mark,
I am glad that you don’t need the history lesson, but there are many readers on this forum who could likely benefit. All I was saying is that Mormons know how to endure persecution so that all this rancor might not have the desired effect.
Y’know, I think our culture is becoming emotionally illiterate. English has the vastest vocabulary of any language on earth, yet many people can only come up with the word “hate” to describe the motivations of a person that might disagree with them. It’s the oddest thing.
As for me, well, I have kids who sometimes do things they shouldn’t, like run out into traffic. I correct them as required, but in their immaturity they sometimes accuse me of hating them. We can all give kids a pass for not being able to express the nuances of their emotions, but I think adults can do better.
If the LDS Church really HATED you, they might be rounding you up in concentration camps and exterminating you. Or putting you in prison for those old sodomy laws. I just can’t see that a church’s position that advocates continued rights to civil unions, equality in the workforce, probate rights, etc and treatment with respect is motivated by rabid, foaming hatred. Find another word perhaps…. I dunno. Like…. “disagree.”
I think a good case for this is your own family. You mentioned that you have all these Mormon cousins and aunts who love you as openly gay. Well, see! You don’t have to agree with one aspect of a lifestyle to still love someone! So, do you really want to disrespect and financially punish these people who have loved and supported you all these years…?
Roymondo
@X-POLYGAMIST WIFE:
What a bunch of garbage. X-polygamist wife, are you calling me a liar? Like I said before, I personally know a Mormon friend who feeds, houses, and employs many, many Lostboys. His initials are J.J. and he lives in St. George. That’s all I’ll say. I grew up in St. George and I’m very privy to the situation with the polygamists in Colorado City and Centennial Park. First of all; is it the responsibility of the LDS Church to rescue the kids from the FLDS? That sounds more like something the States of Utah and Arizona should be doing (and I think their approach is a lot better than the circus they stirred up in El Dorado). I think you are confusing the State of Utah government with the Worldwide LDS Church. The missions and purposes of the LDS Church are to #1 Proclaim the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (Missionary Program), #2 Perfect the Saints (Church services, welfare, etc.) and #3 Redeem the dead (Temple work, geneology). That is the full scope of the Church’s purpose. There is nothing specifically in there about rescuing polygamist Lostboys, but I can guarantee you that of Church (members included) who are looking out for the welfare of the Lostboys it is the LDS. Although the polygamist issue is your hot button, the overall LDS Church doesn’t have the resources to help EVERYONE. We try, but there is only so much we can do. To put the Warren Jeffs polygamist problems as a responsibilty of the LDS Church is completely unfair. It’s like putting the Tibetan Monks problems with China on the Jews to resolve. It’s obvious you don’t understand the purposes and scope of the Church’s welfare sytem. The DI is just one facet. Leaders of many Nations have toured the LDS facilities and modelled their own welfare programs after hours. It’s awonderful program that helps all people. The LDS were some of the very first responders to Hurricane Katrina for example. To criticize the Churches Welfare program is like criticizing Christ for only feeding the 5000 rather than 9000. I just volunteered at the DI and I can assure you that you don’t need to be LDS to benefit from the DI’s programs. Who are you honestly to complain about the wonderful work the LDS Church does throughout the world because they don’t address your polygamist “pet project” the way you want them to. What has your wonderful Gay movement in all of it’s marriage rights protests done to allow polygamists to marry multiple underage women? It’s about love right? How is their love any different than the love of 2 gay men?
Carol
Paul,
I think you are looking to the wrong party for support. Liberals are only randomly committed to civil rights, as are Republicans.
The Democrats’ commitment to free speech is arbitrary. They support it only when it works in their favor. When it doesn’t, they want to restrict it. Their lack of support for the 2nd amendment is frightful. And as you can see, Obama want it both ways….
If you are looking for commitment to civil liberties, all civil liberties for all people without exception, you need to be looking at the Libertarian party. That is where gays need to be sending their support.
mark
Mormons are going to learn their power exists ONLY in Utah, and when they try their strong arm tactics in States they don’t hold a majority, their grasp for power will leave them two bloody stumps where their hands were,
Paul Raposo
All I was saying is that Mormons know how to endure persecution so that all this rancor might not have the desired effect.
You’d be mistaken, Carol. Since the LDS and the Utah tourism board have already sent out press releases trying to quell the damage they’ve done, we are having the desired effect.
Mormons aren’t the only ones who have endured persecution. Homosexuals have put up with it since the dawn of humankind and yet, here we still live.
Homosexuals have been around since before the Mormons and we will be here long after you are forgotten.
Y’know, I think our culture is becoming emotionally illiterate.
You mean emotionally bankrupt. That a church–supposedly the paragon of love and compassion–can campaign so hard to destroy families paints a bleak picture of religion.
English has the vastest vocabulary of any language on earth, yet many people can only come up with the word “hate” to describe the motivations of a person that might disagree with them.
Howabout intolerance; bigotry; maliciousness; cruelty; hubris?
I have kids who sometimes do things they shouldn’t, like run out into traffic. I correct them as required, but in their immaturity they sometimes accuse me of hating them. We can all give kids a pass for not being able to express the nuances of their emotions, but I think adults can do better.
And therein demonstrates the foolishness of Mormons in particlar and religionists in general. You all have a father fixation bordering on obsession. You are not our parents, nor our Gods, Carol. We are capable of making our own decisions and that you would spend millions to take away out right to make our own decisions will be your downfall.
That we were making a major decision–to wed–frightened you so that you worked to take away our option to marry. That you would not be able to control some aspect of another’s future so galled you, that you pissed away money that could have benefited Americans greatly with food, shelter, literacy shows how shortsighted you all are.
If the LDS Church really HATED you, they might be rounding you up in concentration camps and exterminating you.
Rather, they just tore our families apart. Much more insidious than rounding us up, Carol. They figure if they can break our spirit, then they can take us down without notice. I believe our protests have belied they original belief.
Or putting you in prison for those old sodomy laws. I just can’t see that a church’s position that advocates continued rights to civil unions, equality in the workforce, probate rights, etc and treatment with respect is motivated by rabid, foaming hatred. Find another word perhaps…. I dunno. Like…. “disagree.”
I haven’t seen any evidence that the Mormons, love us, or tolerate us, Carol. Provide links supporting your opinion.
satikus
So much hate. “Burn down their churches”, “They’re a cult”, “Take away their tax status.” Wow, the voices are so loud and angry. 5,000 years of recorded history we’ve had no “marriage” between same sex couples. 4 judges change that for 6 months and suddenly it’s a right! We’re not saying that we as a religious body are against your unions. We are only saying that you need to find a different word for it. Marriage is already taken and it’s between a man and a woman. That’s what the people have said twice now…. Anger and anarchy… wow, I’m really not seeing where the title “gay” comes from with such and angry hateful group!
billyboy
Looks like you’re doing a great job! You’ve got them talking! Welcome
Paul Raposo
I think you are looking to the wrong party for support. Liberals are only randomly committed to civil rights, as are Republicans.
Liberlas greatly outnumber conservatrives in eqial marriage support. That you chose to write:
Liberals are only randomly committed to civil rights, as are Republicans.
shows your duplicity. You are comparing an ideal–liberalism–to a party–Republicans.
The Democrats’ commitment to free speech is arbitrary.
And it was Bush’s WH that initiated “free speech zones.”
They support it only when it works in their favor.
And Republicans support it when they can make it a wedge issue.
When it doesn’t, they want to restrict it.
Again, free speech zones.
Their lack of support for the 2nd amendment is frightful. And as you can see, Obama want it both ways….
And the lack of understanding in regards to the intention of the second amendment is frightening.
As far as Obama, I have no idea what he wants, one way, or another.
If you are looking for commitment to civil liberties, all civil liberties for all people without exception, you need to be looking at the Libertarian party. That is where gays need to be sending their support.
Hardly.
mark
carol
My remaining Mormon relatives are Mormon in name only. The last devout Mormon was my grandmother, a staunch FDR democrat all her life, who had my grandfather bound to her after his death, against his wishes. There was ample alcohol use in all my Mormon family, most smoked, and one cousin had two marriages and two children and two divorces by 19 yo. two cousins raised Catholic converted to LDS after their teens, because of the pervasive peer pressures in UT, and each married Mormons.Mormons aren’t the staunch pioneers they want to portray themselves as, they are just as much a part of every age America has faced. My mother drove forklifts at a Navy base in WWll where she met my father stationed there, my cousins drank beer in SLC suburb irrigation canals, and went with me to gamble in Nevada in Wendover. A straight cousin even drove me to one of the twelve gay bars in SLC.
mark
If LDS had done the same thing they did to gays/lesbians to ANY OTHER Minority, they would have ASHES where their temple once stood. Try this sh*t with Moslems, Jews, Baptists, Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Chinese.
We (LGBTs) will bankrupt your businesses, we will destroy your tourism…and you will shut the HELL up, knowing it could have been MUCH WORSE.
Paul Raposo
5,000 years of recorded history we’ve had no “marriage” between same sex couples.
No recorded history. Since this is the case we have no idea how many same sex marriages have taken place. Here is a link however, to educate yourself:
[Link will be provided later–TinyURL is currently down.]
4 judges change that for 6 months and suddenly it’s a right!
America is not a theocracy.
We’re not saying that we as a religious body are against your unions.
You said as much with millions of dollars.
We are only saying that you need to find a different word for it.
Says who? Who died and made the LDS the arbitrators of all things marriage related?
Marriage is already taken and it’s between a man and a woman.
Straight people don’t own the word.
That’s what the people have said twice now…. Anger and anarchy… wow, I’m really not seeing where the title “gay” comes from with such and angry hateful group!
And I’m not seeing any Christian love from the ads that were aired by supporters of Prop 8, nor from the people who wish to tear families apart.
mark
In case any of the queers missed the influx of Mormons to the threads here, it is a Mormon tactic to monitor all of the web to see what is being said about them, and send out their representatives to argue their point of view.
I’ve seen the same thing happen at many progressive blogs whether gay or mixed.
Carol
Fair enough. I sometimes substitute the word liberal for Democrat, and conservative for Republican — and we both understand how these can overlap — yet they are true enough of the time that you understand me.
Sure I agree that liberals outnumber conservatives on gay marriage support. Unquestionably. I’m just saying that liberals and democrats are only arbitrarily committed to civil rights. I’ll also say that conservatives and republicans are only arbitrarily committed to civil rights. They merely pick different ones to support and different ones to revoke.
If you want to be consistent on civil rights, and not just pick and choose the ones you happen to like, you need to throw your support to libertarians — Big L or small l.
Take the gun thing. You don’t like them. You might even think them evil. Others consider them the foundation of liberty. Many women consider them the equalizer. Now, do you suppose it is reasonable to expect gun-owners who don’t like gay marriage to roll over for your issue while you vote to have their right to self-protection confiscated…?
Agreed on Obama. Who can have any idea what he means…?
mark
Mormons have a lot of balls talking about activist judges, when ALL THREE BRANCHES of UT State government was solidly ALL MORMON, ALL THE TIME.
Carol
Mark,
It is not an official church thing! Just like you, Mormons have their Google or Yahoo Home Pages marked with subjects that are of import to them.
My news page pops up every article related to every subject I have selected, including Afghanistan, Iraq, Canada, a couple of medical issues, several politicians, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Since the Church has been the target of protests, these articles naturally pop up. Mormons weren’t sent here. If they were, they would likely be far more articulate.
mark
gays…yep
guns…yep
God…yep
got it all covered, and if you F*CK with my human rights god help ya, and pick on someone your own CALIBER.
Roymondo
@Paul Raposo:
I guess you didn’t get the press releases that the LDS released? Just because they aren’t talking about it in the pulpit, doesn’t mean they aren’t talking about it.
I never said they weren’t talking about it. What I said was there really wasn’t much talk of it. Chirch last Sunday was business as usual so to speak. I got the press release also, and I support what the Church did in this free Country. The LDS Church like it or not can freely express it’s opinion on issues like this without legal recourse.
And when our boycott of Mormon owned businesses and of Utah itself, let’s see how far that big caravan gets.
Boycott away. You forget that there are more Mormons outside of the US than in the US. Are you going to boycott Germany too? The German Mormons also pay 10% tithing, along with the Canadian Saints, San Francisco Saints, etc. Utah is only about 65% LDS. Condemn everyone in Utah (including non-mormons) for what a Church located in Utah did. Gee..That’s not bigotry is it? Every gay dollar the Mormons have 100 more. IF, and I say IF the gay community could put aside their own egos and organize themselves someone like your buddy Robert Redford might take your idle threats serious.
Good, considering Mormon’s acted quite un-Godly in supporting prop 8 and demonstrated they’re inherent evil in removing equal rights.
You have to realize that you and I do have equal rights. This argument is what is solidifying the black vote AGAINST you. If you could scientifically prove you were born gay you might get somewhere with this argument. This is not a civil right issue, this is a definition of marriage issue. You can get married just like me to the opposite sex. If that doesn’t work then you can have a civil union (or whatever you want to call it). You’re infringing on my civil right to vote by intimidating me with a boycott, vandalism, etc.
Mormons aren’t the only people with families. The only difference is, no one spent 20 million to eliminate the existence of your families.
I never said Mormons are the only ones with families, and we esteem the traditional mother father family unit regardless of faith as sacred. An institution designed by God to foster posterity. I will say that there will be no gay couple with the ability to have offspring. That is what this is fundamentally about. Creating the best environment to raise God’s children. Even the animals at the zoo get a loving Father and Mother. The generations of giraffe wouldn’t have made it if we put the males with males and females with females. Remember Noah’s ark. There was a reason he gather “male and female” of every kind. Your argument goes against all scientific reasoning.
Do you really see yourself as goodly, Roymondo? Evil is making the lives of newly married people illegal. And you will pay when you meet your maker.
I try to be goodly. Do you have any Children? I have 3 and they are the center of my life. I would do anything for them including give my life. I strongly disagree with gay marriage being taught to my children as normal because it is not. I also have an openly gay brother and one day I will have to explain to my children about his lifestyle. I will tell them that he is unhappy because he struggles with same-sex attraction, he won’t ever have children to bring him joy in his posterity, but we love him anyway. And we do love him.
Lies. You support telling other law abiding, tax paying citizens what they may, or may not do.
The “Mormon money” came from tax paying citizens who happened to be Mormon. Are you saying they don’t have a right to vote? Are you going to intimidate them also? What if I intimidated you fore your vote. Mormon leaders asked Church members to get involved and support Prop 8. They also told us to love and respect you. We haven’t called you names, made fun of you, threatened you, vandalized your property, etc. Everyone in Cali has a voice and the majority said yes on 8. Get used to it. That’s how a democracy works.
The world hasn’t had traditional marriage in centuries. When women are no longer bought and paid for with sheep, or goats; when wives aren’t used as chattel in loans and business dealings; when daughters aren’t promised to wealthy men in exchange for land, or titles, traditional marriage has not taken place.
There are countless marriage customs i.e. trading property for a wife history has given us. This still does not change the fundamental bedrock of marriage between a man and woman. You’re alive today because of that very institution. (Refer to my giraffe analogy for futher clarification)
It was by Christ.
Don’t make me laugh. I’d be happy to see that one explained in the Bible. If that was the case I doubt the Bible would tell us to “multiply and replenish the earth”. I don’t doubt that some deranged interpretation of the Bible brought you to that conclusion though. The bible can say whatever you want it to. That’s the problem Mormons have with Evangelicals.
If you fear God, why are you attacking gays?
Nobody is “attacking gays”. Have the Mormons “attacked you”? The Mormons (along with 52% of Californians) voted to retain the traditional definition of marriage. Just like in AZ and FL where Mormons didn’t even mobilize. You are living in a country that does not believe you should call ‘Adam and Steve’ marriage. Get used to it.
But only one side had millions to throw at the cause and the power of the pulpit to instill fear.
Are you honestly telling me the no on prop 8 side didn’t also throw millions at this? How much did Google and Apple give your side again? I also recall a few preachers on your side of the vote. Did they not get involved when they showed up at the Mormon Temple? You must be getting desperate if you’re just making stuff up now.
Don’t preach about abusive language considering what was said in the pro Prop 8 advertising about gays.
There was no abusive language whatsoever. Even if they wanted to the TV networks wouldn’t even allow it. Language you disagree with does not equal abusive language. If you want to see abusive language check out the protest videos on youtube. I’ve never heard the “f” word more in my life.
Considering Mormons blew each other up in the early eighties, I have no doubt the vandalism was committed by the LDS themselves.
Mormons blew each other up? Oh yeah that happened like every day…NOT. What in the heck are you talking about? Ex-mormon Mark Hoffman? I’ve been a Utah Mormon since ’76 and I don’t even know how to respond to that other than saying you’re creative. We had a bigger problem with Sasquatches steeling pies off old lady’s windowsills in the 80’s actually.
The LDS wrote the book on intimidation.
What book is that? Intimidated to do what? The Church is entirely volunteer. There is no paid clergy. Tithing is volunteer. Attendance and participation in volunteer. They must have blown that book up in the 70’s before I joined.
The said YES to hate.
Mormons said yes to Traditional Marriage. We said no to hate, because in spite of your anger we still love you as sons and daughters of God. If you needed help moving your couch, call a local Mormon and they’d be there at the drop of a hat. Mormons are here to help you be happy. Gay marriage will not lead to happiness. Are you happy now? Honestly are you? I get depressed sometimes too, but the love I find in my home with my children and my wife makes me happy. You have a right to that also. You have the power of procreation yourself. You just need to bridle your passions and find a spouse of the opposite sex and you can have this joy also. Mormons want you to have that blessing of posterity.
Nope, you just called for his death and accused him of being a terrorist while Palin and McCain watched on.
I called for his death? I called him a terrorist? I didn’t like Palin or McCain either. My wife actually voted for Obama. I wrote in a candidate if you want to know the truth.
In other words, we need to get down and beg and grovel before you?
Don’t get before me. Get before your Father in Heaven. He knows you. He loves you. He wants you to be happy. He gave you the sacred power to procreate so that you would have joy in your posterity. The joy your parents had when you were born, and the joy their parents had when your parents were born. Having a gay older brother I know the struggles he deals with. I pray for him to be happy. He has told me he isn’t happy. He has told me he has become selfish and depressed. When you have children you give your all to them and by giving of yourself you find joy. I don’t doubt the feelings you have towards your partner, but that partnership is all about the two of you. It’s not about the children like my marriage is. Is a sacred thing that is ordained of God. If it was a manmade institution it would be different. I read 2 Timothy chapter 3 in the Bible last night because I was thinking about this issue. It describes what I belive is happening right now. He also talks about “natural affection”. What do you think?
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Carol
Mark,
For Democrats, Dennis Kucinich was a far more reliable civil rights ally than Obama.
Paul Raposo
I’m just saying that liberals and democrats are only arbitrarily committed to civil rights.
No, Carol. You wrote:
Liberals are only randomly committed to civil rights, as are Republicans.
So which one is it–arbitrarily, or randomly committed? Each word creates a different scenario to debate.
If you want to be consistent on civil rights, and not just pick and choose the ones you happen to like, you need to throw your support to libertarians — Big L or small l.
I haven’t seen any evidence that Libertarians support anything other than themselves. After all, that is what libertarianism is all about–personal freedom, with the emphasis on personal. I see libertarians doing nothing for the greater good.
Take the gun thing. You don’t like them. You might even think them evil.
Says who? I refuse to argue this point until you present the statements made by myself that I don’t like guns and may find them evil.
Agreed on Obama. Who can have any idea what he means…?
17,535,458 Americans apparently.
Laura Loon
Fuck the mormons in their magical underpants and fuck this site!!
Mike Prestie
Re American RIGHTS:
Gay people have rights because they are American. Not open to discussion. Mormons, the Knights of Columbus, African Americans and the Republicans ganged up on us. The Courts must defend our rights and we must get equal protection of the Law per our State Constitution.
What is this BS about Traditional Marriage?
Marriage in America, Canada, Australia and Europe is totally different than what it was when I was a kid in the 1950’s. It evolved. The people that voted against are resisting change. You can’t stop change. The young gay people need to get out there and show this state that we Californians expect California to lead social evolution in this country. The Mormons are hilarious. They used to think the black people were cursed and prohibited them from their temples. Just recently a Mormon splinter group in Texas was an international embarrassment for the USA with front page proof of polygamy, incest and child abuse. Maybe the Mormons that want to save traditional marriage (?) and protect children might start with their cousins in Texas! Ooopps–did I say cousins!
Greg
I don’t consider Mormons to be Christians, and here’s why:
The Jewish faith has 1 testament in their Bible, the Christian faith has 2. All of their differences are wrapped up in that fact. And we don’t consider Jews to be the same religion as Christians.
As it’s been explained to me, the Book of Mormon is essentially a 3rd testament, an addition to the 2 of the Christian Bible. So now the Mormons have 3 testaments, making their beliefs largely different, thus they are a different religion and not Christian.
mark
Roymondo
Noah’s Ark???
I thought we were having an adult conversation.
If you can argue your fairy tale I can quote the damn tooth or sugar plum fairies.
Roymondo
@Mike Prestie:
The FLDS Church has no affiliation with the LDS Church, but if you recall after Texas authorities seized the children they found no signs of abuse. They also found out that the “abused whistleblower” who called was actually a prank call from Colorado. Nice try tying the FLDS offshoot with the Salt Lake City Mormons though. Nobody is asking you to agree with Mormons. We’re just here to correct your made up “facts”
mark
If you want to back up marriage as one man and one woman the BIBLE ain’t the book to do it.
Polygamy is all through out the book, as is slavery, divorce solely being a man’s decision, a daughter OWNED by her father until she is OWNED by her husband. King David’s love for Johnathan SURPASSES his love of women. Ruth and Naiomi “whether tho goest I go too” and finally St John is the disciple Jesus LOVED. John was the only disciple attending the crucifixion, where Jesus asks John to care for his mother, (and for Mary to recognise John as HER SON), which he did until Mary’s death, even though Mary had other biological children who presumably could have cared for her.
Roymondo
@Greg:
Greg. Mormons are Christians because they worship Jesus Christ. We believe the Old Testament Jews who went against tradition and accepted Christ became Christians. Thus the New Testament. We also believe that as the Apostles were killed, the Church fell into apostasy. This is why we have literally thousands of “Chirstian Churches” teaching from the same Bible. LDS believe that in our day (the last days) Christ restored his original Church to the earth with Prophets and Apostles. We believe that our leader Thomas Monson is the a literal prophet like Moses or Noah. We believe all that God has revealed and all that he will reveal. We don’t believe the heavens are closed like our Evangelical friends do. So YES we worship Christ and NO we don’t believe God stopped talking to Prophets 2000 years ago. I hope that clears things up for you. Check out mormon dot org for more info if you are interested.
Roymondo
@mark:
Polygamy is in the Bible. That was Mormon’s argument 120 years ago when we were thrown out of the US. Homosexuality is there also but only when God condemns it so I’m sure Homosexual marriage is not sanctioned of God.
michael
Things are getting ugly, maybe they need to. Just like a volcano eventually erupts when enough pressure builds so do people. Thats natural law people. Martin Luther King Jr. said that a man has not lived until he has found something worth dying for, well
maybe for gay people they have finally found it.
Roymondo
@mark:
Well if you don’t believe the Bible that’s ok. Give the Book of Mormon a try. Reading that will help you understand the bible. go to mormon dot org for a free copy.
Carol
Paul,
17,535,458 Americans may be engaged in wishful thinking — voting for Obama on the premise that he is on their side of this debate when there are equally compelling reasons to think he might actually support the other side. Only time will tell….
ProtectMarriage
What I want to know is how someone that is editor for Queerty leaves a protest because people are speaking against the entity that funded 70% of “Vote Yes on Prop 8”
Please inform us what your real reason for leaving was… did you have a one night stand you wanted to get to? Did you badly desire to see one of the movies at the box office? Those reasons would at least mean you are selfish… leaving a protest for firmly calling out the entity that donated 70% of all funds to the Vote Yes on Prop 8 is what you call MUTINY. Maybe you can join Mormons for a nice anti-gay vigil on their next Holy Day.
!!!NEW EDITOR PLEASE!!! One that supports gay rights this time.
mark
Roymondo,
I was raised by a Mormon mother, think we didn’t have a copy of the Book of Mormon?
Carol
Paul,
Sure libertarians work for the greater good. They just think that far more good is accomplished via non-governmental, non-coercive means — and there is certainly plenty of evidence for that. Remember the Katrina debacle, which would have been every bit as bad with the Dems at the helm. Private charities, for instance, are far more efficient than anything the government doles out.
I don’t know why some persons think liberty means indifference to the suffering of others. Consider the title of one of the prominent libertarian primers: “Healing Our World in an Age of Aggression.” The attitude that libertarians are only self-interested is mistaken.
Carol
ProtectMarriage:
Maybe he strongly supports gay marriage but thinks that present tactics are malproductive and likely to set back his goal for many years to come.
Just a thought.
Michael vdB
I wonder which is worse:
The dogma from the Christian (or so-called Christian) side…
or
The dogma coming from the overly hateful (although having every right to be mad) gay side?
In the sad end, PROP8 was passed. It is a HUGE stumbling block for winning something that many of you may have spent years fighting for. But is the fight over? No. The Mormon church may have hand a hand in the Yes side, but I don’t really think that it was the sole, instrumental reason. Many factors need to be considered. There are still many avenues to be considered.
By all means…be angry…SCREAM EVEN! But *please* don’t let your anger turn into hate. It just makes us no different then the people that fight so hard against us.
fredo777
@Paul Raposo:
If they had followed his lead, they would have voted against Prop 8 as he said he would.
My point still stands.
mark
Roymondo Mormons weren’t thrown out of the United States for polygamy…GET YOUR history straight (so to speak.)
Utah was ONLY a Territory, and was prevented from becoming a State until they outlawed polygamy.You can’t be thrown out of something before you became a part of it.
yikes
@Bitch Republic:
That’s a bit rude don’t you think to call someone names they don’t like? That’s like calling black people the N word and gay people the F word. I don’t think Mormons have a problem with being called “Mormons” as they have the website mormons dot org. If you want to call Mormons bigots you will need to at least need to not be bigots toward them first
mark
Carol
We had eight Katrina evacuees come stay with us from Katrina in our home near Baton Rouge.
Don’t speak about something you haven’t a clue about…seriously DON’T!
Paul Raposo
I never said they weren’t talking about it. What I said was there really wasn’t much talk of it. Chirch last Sunday was business as usual so to speak.
I find it interesting that they didn’t speak much about it with their congregation, yet issued a press release.
I got the press release also, and I support what the Church did in this free Country. The LDS Church like it or not can freely express it’s opinion on issues like this without legal recourse.
And so can people who oppose the LDS’s stance exercise our freedom to have your tax exempt status investigated.
Boycott away. You forget that there are more Mormons outside of the US than in the US.
I’m not worried about non-American Mormons. This is an American issue and it will be dealt with by Americans.
Condemn everyone in Utah (including non-mormons) for what a Church located in Utah did.
Yes. And when Utah businesses realize they are losing money because of the LDS, they may think twice about tolerating your presence.
Gee..That’s not bigotry is it?
Nope. It’s called the free market.
Every gay dollar the Mormons have 100 more.
And for every gay, there are 9 straights, many who support us and will also boycott Mormon owned businesses.
IF, and I say IF the gay community could put aside their own egos and organize themselves someone like your buddy Robert Redford might take your idle threats serious.
How do you know he isn’t listening?
You have to realize that you and I do have equal rights.
I have equal rights because I live in Canada. My LGBTQ brothers and sisters in America do not.
This argument is what is solidifying the black vote AGAINST you.
You must remember that over 30% of black voters supported us.
If you could scientifically prove you were born gay you might get somewhere with this argument.
And if you could scientifically prove that I was not born gay…
This is not a civil right issue, this is a definition of marriage issue.
And Mormons have decided to hijack the process and force California to bend to the LDS’s will.
You can get married just like me to the opposite sex.
Just as you don’t want to marry a man, I don’t want to marry a woman. Did you decide who you would marry, or was your wife chosen for you by others? it’s about personal choice in who we spend our lives with. You have no right to dictate who I can, or cannot marry.
If that doesn’t work then you can have a civil union (or whatever you want to call it). You’re infringing on my civil right to vote by intimidating me with a boycott, vandalism, etc.
Civil unions do not carry the same rights as marriage. If a person decides to move from one state to another, their CU is null and void.
And I can boycott you all I want, it is the American way–our dollars will speak loud and clear.
…we esteem the traditional mother father family unit regardless of faith as sacred.
You support bigotry–only your straight families will matter and all other families will not. That is not at all Christ-like.
An institution designed by God to foster posterity.
So says your religious stories. But America was not founded on religious fables–it was founded on freedom.
I will say that there will be no gay couple with the ability to have offspring.
Just as many straight couples cannot have babies the usual way, many gays have families with other methods. Are those families less in your eyes, just because they were adopted, or conceived with IVF?
Creating the best environment to raise God’s children.
I thought we were all God’s children. Will the LDS now decide who may, or may not find God? You are over stepping your mortal grounds, Roymondo.
Even the animals at the zoo get a loving Father and Mother.
Just because kids with gay parents don’t have opposite sex parents, doesn’t mean they are loved any less. Your arrogance in deciding who is na d is not fir to be is an abomination before your God, Roymondo. As Charles Dickens wrote:
It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child.
Remember Noah’s ark.
I can’t have a serious debate with a man who believes such things.
I try to be goodly.
I see little evidence of that.
I have 3 and they are the center of my life. I would do anything for them including give my life.
And would you give your life to give them the right to be gay, if they were, or would you rebuke them?
I strongly disagree with gay marriage being taught to my children as normal because it is not.
And it is something so sought after and so dearly desired by millions of Americans, yet you would work to remove their right to have it, just because you don’t like the idea of two men marrying. That you would work to take away the joy and happiness from others, that you yourself have says a great deal,about your lack of humanity.
I also have an openly gay brother and one day I will have to explain to my children about his lifestyle.
Why? Why can you not let your children find out for themselves, while enjoying their uncle’s company. Do you even allow them to see their uncle, of do you shun him and hide them from him, as if he’s a monster?
You don’t have to explain anything to your kids about their uncle. All you have to tell them is that he loves them and would–perhaps–give his life for them.
I will tell them that he is unhappy because he struggles with same-sex attraction, he won’t ever have children to bring him joy in his posterity,
So, you will teach your children hate and intolerance.
but we love him anyway. And we do love him.
I don’t think any man who would poison children’s minds is capable of love.
The “Mormon money” came from tax paying citizens who happened to be Mormon.
And the boycott of Mormon owned businesses will be carried out by tax paying citizens who happen to be gay.
Are you saying they don’t have a right to vote?
Who says they don’t? They must just accept that not every American will accept their world view.
Are you going to intimidate them also?
Nope. Just stop giving them money. I think that will hurt them more.
What if I intimidated you fore your vote.
You intimidated all California voters–you filed them with dread towards gay Californians and made us out to be perverts and monsters who must be feared, stopped and made illegal.
Mormon leaders asked Church members to get involved and support Prop 8.
They interfered in an election.
They also told us to love and respect you.
You don’t take away equality from people you love.
Do you love your children equally, or do you decide which of the three will have more then the others? Do all your kids sleep in your home, or are some denied a bed in your house? Are all three given a chance to earn an allowance, or are any denied the opportunity to earn some money? Do you give your love equally and unconditionally, or must your children crawl and scrape before you for your love and admiration?
We haven’t called you names, made fun of you, threatened you,
In the advertising created to support Prop 8 all these things happened.
vandalized your property, etc. Everyone in Cali has a voice and the majority said yes on 8. Get used to it. That’s how a democracy works.
And the LDS will soon have a lesson on how the free market works.
There are countless marriage customs i.e. trading property for a wife history has given us.
Did your parents buy your wife for you; or did you meet her, court her, and ask her to marry you?
You’re alive today because of that very institution.
And so is my homosexuality, which has been with us for thousands of years.
It was by Christ.
And since we are made in God’s image–not physically, but spiritually–then clearly homosexuality is also by Christ. I am what He made me.
That’s the problem Mormons have with Evangelicals.
You accuse me of bigotry towards the LDS, yet here is your bigotry on display.
Nobody is “attacking gays”. Have the Mormons “attacked you”?
With your advertising and fear mongering, Roymando.
The Mormons (along with 52% of Californians) voted to retain the traditional definition of marriage.
As interpreted by the LDS. This is not a theocracy.
You are living in a country that does not believe you should call ‘Adam and Steve’ marriage. Get used to it.
We are use to it. But we fight anyways and that is what frightens you most–that you haven’t been able to crush us.
Are you honestly telling me the no on prop 8 side didn’t also throw millions at this?
The LDs gave almost half the money that the Yes side used. No one on the no side gave such a huge contribution.
You also had the bully pulpit and Mormons canvasing door to door, preaching Christ in one word and hate in another.
There was no abusive language whatsoever.
Just because there were no obscenities, doesn’t mean the language wasn’t abusive. The adverts made us out to be perverts who would go after people’s kids.
Mormons blew each other up? Oh yeah that happened like every day…NOT. What in the heck are you talking about? Ex-mormon Mark Hoffman?
Who else? The idea that one Mormon would murder other Mormons to try to become something of a 20th century version of Joseph Smith in order to destroy the church that Joseph Smith created is horrifying.
What book is that? Intimidated to do what? The Church is entirely volunteer.
Why then is the LDS trying to control what happens in another state?
Mormons said yes to Traditional Marriage.
They said yes to bigotry and second class status.
We said no to hate, because in spite of your anger we still love you as sons and daughters of God.
You don’t legislate intolerance against those you love.
Gay marriage will not lead to happiness.
I think there are over 18,000 Americans who would disagree.
Are you happy now? Honestly are you?
I’m very happy. And some days I’m very sad–like this week is the anniversary of my brother’s death and that makes me sad. But I recount the many happy times I had with him to my partner and that makes me feel better because I remember my brother and I’m able to share those memories with the man I love dearly.
That’s what makes me human and no amount of intolerance on the part of the LDS will ever take away my humanity.
I get depressed sometimes too, but the love I find in my home with my children and my wife makes me happy.
If so, then why are you pleased that you took that same right to happiness away from gay families? Why do you want to see us alone and unloved?
You have a right to that also. You have the power of procreation yourself. You just need to bridle your passions and find a spouse of the opposite sex and you can have this joy also. Mormons want you to have that blessing of posterity.
I am the god father and uncle and cousin to over 20 kids. They are not mine, but they love me dearly as do I them. And when I die I know they will recount stories of the times we had together to their partners and like my brother–I will live forever in their hearts and minds. I don’t need to go against my nature and God’s gift to do that.
Don’t get before me.
I wouldn’t. I was being facetious.
Get before your Father in Heaven. He knows you. He loves you. He wants you to be happy.
That’s why He made me the way I am. And no amount of legislating on the part of the LDS will ever be able to change His mind.
He gave you the sacred power to procreate so that you would have joy in your posterity.
And what of those who cannot bear children. Has he forsaken them, Roymando?
Having a gay older brother I know the struggles he deals with.
I don’t believe you really know your brother at all. i think you have a preconceived bias about him, but I don’t for one second believe you know him.
I pray for him to be happy,
Pray for yourself. Pray that you will stop treating him as something that needs to be prayed away and accept him as God made him.
He has told me he isn’t happy. He has told me he has become selfish and depressed.
Are you surprised? His own family hates him. Give him my email address and I’ll let him know that there are people who love him.
I don’t doubt the feelings you have towards your partner, but that partnership is all about the two of you. It’s not about the children like my marriage is.
And what about childless couples? And th elderly who marry late in life? Are they less just because they don’t have kids?
Phoenix (Rainbow Warrior With His Picket Sign In Hand)
What I find disturbing is not that the Mormons funded Prop 8 (and Prop 102), but how they got them on the ballot. The LDS leadership had its Utah congregation travel to host families in California and register to vote as Californians. That’s how they petitioned to get it on the ballot in the first place. They drove across state lines to vote in California’s election. Why aren’t they in prison for election fraud?
mark
libertarian is just another word for selfish
No Social Security or Medicare would have been provided for seniors to have some dignity in their old age…by a Libertarian
No research for curing diseases would have been created by a Libertarian
No care would have been provided for a single disabled child, or a person with AIDS.
Give a libertarian no taxes and their guns and that’s their ENTIRE lives…such as it is.
Paul Raposo
@fredo777:
If they had followed his lead, they would have voted against Prop 8 as he said he would.
If they had, Fredo. But they didn’t. He talked about change, but supported the status quo on marriage and voters followed his lead.
Paul Raposo
@mark:
Give a libertarian no taxes and their guns and that’s their ENTIRE lives…such as it is.
Brilliantly put, Mark 8^)
fredo777
@Paul Raposo:
“If they had, Fredo. But they didn’t. He talked about change, but supported the status quo on marriage and voters followed his lead.”
Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense. Following his lead would suggest that he told them to vote Yes on Prop 8. Which he didn’t, regardless of his rationale for not supporting the prop.
fredo777
@Mike Prestie:
“Mormons, the Knights of Columbus, African Americans and the Republicans ganged up on us.”
Uh…African-American, Republican, Mormon, etc. + gay are not mutually exclusive. I, for one, know firsthand that black + gay aren’t. As for the republican bit…ugh.
Carol
Gee Mark,
I know a libertarian who is over in Afghanistan right now trying to create a medical infrastructure for the entire country — at great risk to himself.
Carol
Well go ahead guys,
If you alienate them enough, I am sure libertarians can content themselves with protecting the rights of pot-smokers and the terminally ill — and just put you guys on the back burner — if that’s the way you want it….
Like I said, I think you guys are shooting yourselves in the feet. Perhaps even willfully.
Dave
I think there a lot of bigots commenting on this article……guess what he is right, mormons are the scapegoat to H8. A lot of Mexicans, I personally have seen it in Mexico, HATE gays or should I say Jotos, maricones, mariposas; however no one has taken them to task for the results of H8. You say you want equal rights yet you don’t treat others equally!!!! Don’t be a bloody Hypocrite!! Hope and Optimism really will show people that they are wrong, not hate, ignorance and retaliation.
mark
Gee carol
your friend is FOLLOWING ORDERS, if the orders changed he/she would dump white phosphorus on children just as quickly and efficiently
mark
I don’t merely single out LDS as the homobigots which passed Prop 8.
LDS drafted Prop 8 and they donated 4 of every 5 dollars, that singles them out as the MAJOR threat.
Minor threats include Catholics of all races, African American conservative evangelicals, and hip hop artist who sensationalize hate towards gays.
Phoenix (Rainbow Warrior With His Picket Sign In Hand)
@ No. 63 Roymondo,
Oh, yes and there was a history of gay marriage being excepted in the world and Christianity. Before Catholicism (or Protestantism and certainly Mor(m)onism) existed the Celtic Church of Ireland recognized several kinds of marriage…including gay marriage and polygamy. Brehon or Gaelic Law had 9-10 forms of marriage, because one size didn’t fit all!
Since I’m a member of this Church it is a violation of my 1ST Amendment rights to Freedom OF Religion
Carol
Mark @ #114
While the country was waiting for Katrina to hit, and the government was twiddling its thumbs trying to figure out who to call and who to blame, the Mormon Church positioned itself on the ground with supplies, waiting for the storm to strike. They were waiting and ready.
And you yourself made my point. You took in Katrina victims yourself. You are a private citizen. You did far more good for those people by utilizing your own resources than letting them wait for a government-issued trailer.
Carol
Actually, my friend volunteered….
Dumping phosphorous is not generally the job of MDs.
fredo777
@Carol:
“Paul,
17,535,458 Americans may be engaged in wishful thinking — voting for Obama on the premise that he is on their side of this debate when there are equally compelling reasons to think he might actually support the other side. Only time will tell….”
What is with your cynicism where Obama is concerned? He won the election + is now to be our next president. Get over it.
I assume you voted for McCain or Barr.
Carol
@fredo777:
Actually, I am not resentful of the Obama win, though I did vote for Barr. I was pleased to see the Reps lose this round because they frankly deserved it.
Since people are being singled out to protest, including little old ladies, I just think it interesting that a vast number of people are assuming Obama is on their side of this issue.
Don’t you think the politics of political correctness/bigotry are fascinating? I mean, we both instantly know that you CAN’T protest against blacks or Hispanics or the new black president, but it is just fine to protest members of a certain long marginalized church. Fascinating stuff….
Well guys, it’s been a slice. I’m outta here.
snoremonster
I think all of this is pretty retarded. If Prop 8 had not passed do you think all of the heteros would be vandalizing West Hollywood, picketing, having rallies and demonstrations, threatening to boycott gay businesses, etc? No. All of the straight people would have just gotten on with their lives just as all of you guys should. The LDS church is not going to lose it’s tax-exempt status no matter how much the gay community bitches, pisses and moans about it. Also, CA is a pretty liberal state and they still couldn’t get the votes they needed to keep gay marriage, so do you actually think that the small minority of gays and otherwise that would boycott Utah would really have that much of a financial impact on Utah and the Mormons? Let me answer that for you…no.
Bruno
The Mor(m)ons & Catholics & Protestants and Orthodox Jews, etc. went too far this time. That’s all there is to it. It’s not even about gay marriage to me anymore so much as people’s freedom of religion being imposed upon by a few large congregations that can enforce the “will of their people” on a (very large 48%) minority. Attention, Mor(m)ons, et al. You will lose this war, and you will add one more example of intolerance to the history books to your arsenal. And it won’t look good on you.
fredo777
@Carol:
“you can’t protest against the new black president”
My objection to your comments about Obama have precious little to do with political correctness or him being black. I just wonder why it seems you continually bring little digs against him into discussions that don’t even directly relate to him. Anyway, I don’t advocate bigotry toward anyone, but I’m not exactly thrilled with the LDS + their support of/encouragement of members’ donations to Yes on Prop 8.
I imagine a lot of other gays are just as pissed with them + are lashing out against all things Mormon as a result. Not advisable, but understandable.
fredo777
@snoremonster:
Wrong. Heteros would have gotten over it, because the outcome of the vote wouldn’t have directly removed their already granted rights to marry. Then again, maybe not. I mean, after all, their rights weren’t threatened this time + it didn’t stop them from butting their way in to the matter + donating millions to remove marriage rights from gays in (+ outside of) their state.
Had it, you can bet your ass they would not just “let it go” + “move on” with their lives. That you would even expect gays to get over it + move on when their rights were not just denied but actually stripped away is ridiculous, to say the least.
As for the “minority” of gays not having an impact on the businesses they choose to boycott. Think again. Not only do they have lots of expendable income, but they also have hetero allies to support them in such causes. So, don’t sleep on them because you think their dollars don’t matter. Money talks + bullshit walks, as the saying goes.
mark
Legislators file friend of the court brief to stop Prop 8 (+)
by: Pam Spaulding
Tue Nov 11, 2008 at 00:00:00 AM EST
(ALSO: Andy Towle, as usual, compiles an excellent list of Prop 8 news items. )
This is awesome (via email).
More than 40 state legislators, including Assembly Speaker Karen Bass, Senate President pro Tem Don Perata, incoming Senate President pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, and Speaker Emeritus Fabian Núñez, today filed a friend of the court brief in the case to void Prop 8, claiming it should be invalidated because it was not enacted under the proper procedures for changing the state Constitution.
“The citizens of California rely on the Legislature and the courts to safeguard against unlawful discrimination by temporary, and often short-lived, majorities,” said the legislators. “Our state’s few deviations from this duty have proven, with the perspective of historical distance, to be the most abhorrent chapters in our State’s history… The Legislative Amici urge this Court to prevent the momentary passions of a bare majority from compromising the enduring constitutional promise of equal protection under the law. Proposition 8’s radical change to our constitutional protections cannot be considered a mere ‘amendment.’ The California Constitution — ‘the ultimate expression of the People’s will’ — requires the involvement of the Legislature in a constitutional revision of this magnitude.”
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8139
HA!
House
Maybe you could learn a lesson from the Mormons.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/AwakeAndAriseOr/videos/119/
mark
carol go be a patronizing a$$wipe to someone who gives a good G*D DAMN, don’t address me again
House
LDS Proclamation on the Family:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,FF.html
mark
You Mormons can also explain your elder who promoted FAG-BASHING in a pamphlet printed for DECADES to instruct young men.
mark
While President Hinckley has recently condemned hatred and violence against “those who profess homosexual tendencies,” the First Presidency from 1976 onward has also repeatedly published Apostle Boyd K. Packer’s talk praising a Mormon missionary for beating up his homosexual companion. This official church pamphlet, titled To Young Men Only, encourages teenage boys to assault any males “who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts.” Yet President Hinckley (who was a senior apostle in 1976) expresses bewilderment regarding the literally thousands of violent attacks against gay males in Utah during the decades since the First Presidency began publishing Apostle Packer’s talk. This endorsement of gay bashing continues to be printed in pamphlet form and is currently distributed by LDS headquarters. From 1976 to the present, local LDS leaders have been encouraged to give this pamphlet to young males in their teens and twenties, those most likely to commit hate crimes against gays and lesbians.
http://www.exmormon.org.uk/tol_arch/atozelph/gay.htm
pamphlet I just mentioned
fredo777
@House:
Neither the time nor the place, House.
House
This video is just for fun. We can all laugh at this one.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/AwakeAndAriseOr/videos/116/
By the way Mark. Linking to exmormon.org, what do you think we’re going to find. That’s some of the most sensationalized half truths available. Packer told a story in ’76 to illustrate a point and you think the Church is telling us to “punch out” gays? You used to be a Mormon right? You should know better than that. You can leave the Church but you can’t leave the Church alone. You are so bitter. The Mormon Church is double the size since you left. We welcome you back anytime.
House
This isn’t the time and place for the LDS Church’s “Official” position on Marriage. Last I checked the article was about Mormons and their position on Marriage. What article are you commenting on?
House
Furthermore Mark…how many documented cases of Mromons “gay baching” as a result to this article have we seen in the news? UHHHHHHH? That’s what I thought. This is called sensationalism. We can all see right through it.
mark
The state legilators pressing the CA Supreme Court to strike Prop 8 would be SWEET, the LDS wasted 22 Million for NOTHING, and STILL face a total Utah boycott for P*SSING US OFF!
fredo777
@House:
This isn’t the time or place to be trying to promote your Mormon faith. And the article is specifically about Prop 8 + the LDS’s support of it, actually. Which leads back to my earlier statement.
mark
House I was NEVER a willing Mormon, my mother changed to the Lutheran when I was 4 yo, I have no memory from the time I was blessed as Mormon at birth until my Lutheran baptism at 4 yo.
mark
to the Lutheran faith…mistake above
X-POLYGAMIST WIFE
Yes roymondo, you are a liar. I know contractors in Nevada, Arizona, and Utah who help and hire Lost Boys, big deal, that doesn’t justify the Mormon Church spending 25 million on Prop 8 and doing nothing to help polygamists in Utah. You can make up as many excuses you want, I know better.
Oh ye hypocrites behind the Zion Curtain in UTAH.
mark
House
what I quoted stated
“expresses bewilderment regarding the literally thousands of violent attacks against gay males in Utah ”
THOUSANDS!
House
@fredo777:
Prop8 and the LDS supporting it…Why are they supporting it? Read the proclamation on the Family.. Are you afraid of it or something? Are you trying to keep the conversation one sided?
http://www.viddler.com/explore/AwakeAndAriseOr/videos/109/
Here’s your “hate language”. Sounds like love to me.
mark
The reason most Mormons don’t know sh*t about gays and lesbians is the OUT gays LEAVE, and the cowardly closet cases remain.
Roymondo
@X-POLYGAMIST WIFE:
What does this article have to do with Polygamist in a non LDS church? This article is about prop 8. What do you want the LDS church to do about the Warren Jeffs polygamist exactly? How did they become the responsibilty of the LDS? I honestly don’t think you understand the purpose of the LDS Church. Why doesn’t the LDS Church save all the puppies from the pound? I’m not sure. What are you doing to help the Lostboys? By the way, my Mormon friend is not a contractor. I’m glad you discredit his voluntary help though. It’s never good enough for you is it. There’s always a reason to bash Mormons right?
fredo777
@House: I’m not reading anything of the sort. Frankly, I don’t care why they’re supporting it. The point is, they encouraged their members to shell out millions to deny my gay brothers + sisters legal rights that had already been granted.
I’m neither “afraid” of your faith nor interested in keeping the conversation one-sided. You’ve made your point, but I have no earthly interest in reading LDS proclamations from an organization that preaches against persons like myself. If I did, I’d frequent LDS blogs. Such is not the case.
House
@mark:
Salt Lake has a very OUT gay population. Perhaps you missed the news article about the SLC Temple protest a few days ago. I live here, I should know. Don’t dis’ our gays Mark. They are people too.
House
@fredo777:
Well I’m glad you have a desire to understand my Mormon point-of-view before you openly bash my beliefs as bigoted. Maybe if you’d open your mind and read it and see where Mormons are coming from it would help you to be enlightened. Knowledge is power. Know your enemy.
mark
yeah I’ve been gay IN SALT LAKE CITY
your queer bars are each seperated and isolated in dangerous f*ckin warehose districts, there is no gay community in SLC. It would be considered Pre-Stonewall compared to a civilized city, like Chicago, SF, NYC, Dallas, Minneapolis, Seattle.
Phil
@audiored:
Nice!! extremely well informed and certainly not bigoted on your part. Idiot!
mark
btw….most of the guys in your so-called gay bars are MARRIED to women, who haven’t a clue their husband is a fag. How many nice Mormon women got infected with AIDS by their Down Low hubbies?
Phil
@John (yet another John):
First of all.. this BS about boycotting Utah and the LDS church members is so completely outrageous. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I saw no LDS General Authorities holding guns to anyone’s head forcing them to vote. The “Against” campaign had almost twice the money donated to them as the “For”. It boiled down to bad campaign management and 52% of the citizens exercising their right to vote.
Second of all…If you are so against the Mormons and what they stand for..how about have California give back the millions of dollars in aid and relief supplies that the LDS church donated during the horrific wildfires lately. Better yet why don’t you read up on all the relief and aid the church provides across the globe.http://www.lds.org/ldsfoundation/welfare/ 0,7133,1325-1-9–cWELFAREPOSTER,00.html
How convenient that I heard no one from California whining about the Mormons interfering and helping your state when real trouble came. In fact the Mormons donated far more than just money…they donted time, supplies and churches to help people that had been dispalced. They were the single largest private donors to helping Southern California during this time. I’m sure you all sent in your Thank You cards for that help didn’t you!! I just can’t believe that no one says a thing about the millions in aid and relief but yet are shocked that the church would take a stand on something you knew they would. Go ahead and hate the Mormons…They are used to it..they’ve been persecuted beyond any other faith in America..I’m sure they can handle this. Bring it on! Next time California is on fire..(and I’m sure it will be again soon..it burns just about every year)I’m sure the LDS church still won’t hesitate to help regardless of your hatred. It still makes me personally sick to listen to your BS then turn around and bail you out. Go ahead and boycott Utah and the church..just remember who was first to help in your time of need.
The church’s statement on the issue was very clear and not mean spirited in the least. They took a stand on the definition of marriage..that’s it…It’s part of their fundamental belief structure and I would think everyone knew exactly where they stood before the whole thing happened. It’s not like anyone was surprised. Are you going to tell me that anyone that disagrees with your views should be treated the same way. Can no one disagree with you and not have retribution??
There are still a couple of misconceptions that are running rampant.
1. The LDS church only donated about $2,000 to the campaign. Church members donated the bulk of the money. So quit saying the LDS church donated $20 Million..they didn’t
2. The LDS church leaders were never once asked to approve the campaign advertisements that were released. If you find them offensive.. blame the organizers of the “For” campaign. That’s like saying that because I donated to the Republican party..I had any say in the propaganda that was produced and spewed on every channel for the last few months..Ridiculous!!
The term “Marriage” has always been used as a way to define the legal binding relationship between a man and a woman. The gay community prides itself on being different and unique… Come up with your own term and get the same legal backing. Leave my stuff alone and I’ll leave your’s alone. I could care less what you call it…just don’t call it marriage.. come up with something better..I’d support that.
In the end..just move on..Take the battle to the Supreme Court and do what you have to do. Push to get it reversed..that would be the respectable thing to do. Targeting people that voiced their contrary opinion to you only makes your cause so much less respectable. Grow up..quit whining!! You took one on the chin..now get up, brush yourself off and continue a RESPECTABLE fight. stop throwing a tantrum. You really look like babies.
fredo777
@House:
haha
I love the old stand-by “be more open-minded” line from those whose beliefs promote denying my rights based on their religion.
I know enough, thanks. I have a pretty good grasp of their viewpoint. “Women bring love into a relationship…” + so forth.
mark
phil
“Go ahead and hate the Mormons…They are used to it..they’ve been persecuted beyond any other faith in America..”
You folks sound like a G*D DAMN broken record…always the hated victimes…go F*CK YOURSELVES!
You have actively OPPRESSED women on ERA, Blacks in Boy Scouts and your preisthood, and gays in Boy Scouts and Gay/Straight Alliance clubs and now marriage.
Johan
Hate will get us nowhere.
Hating the Mormons won’t refund the millions they spent on passing Prop 8.
Hating the Catholics won’t change the clergy’s mind about us.
Hating African-Americans won’t earn us their vote next time around.
I’m angry too, don’t get me wrong, but you can’t fight bigotry with hate.
What did Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. do?
fredo777
@House:
Btw, I never actually said you were bigoted for your beliefs. I just don’t happen to agree with them.
It is telling, though, that you labeled yourself my “enemy”.
Eric
@House:
Hilarious video…. LOL
Eric
I mean the Nazi one….
mark
Here’s the COMPASSIONATE Mormons when AIDS hit
“10 January 1986 Mormons Excommunicate Repentant AIDS Victim Clair Harward A homosexual dying of AIDS convinced he would “go to hell†and needing spiritual guidance said he confessed his sexual preference to his local Mormon bishop and was excommunicated. Ogden resident, Clair Harward said doctors have told him he only has a few months to live, but he will die a non Mormon because the church will not consider whether to readmit him for another year. Mormon bishop Bruce Don Bowen confirmed Harward was excommunicated and was asked not to attend church because of fears he could spread the disease AIDS which is spread by sexual contact, largely among Gays. Bowen said Harward was excommunicated because the church believes homosexuality is an abuse of God’s gift of procreation.”
they leave you to die alone in the streets, there should be a white hot napalm-fueled corner of hell just for Mormons
Shawna
@mark:
Well Gee Mark,
If all those SLC gays are married Mormons, maybe you shouldn’t be messing with them. You honor the sanctity of marriage, right?
froggyola
Your “editorial” is somewhat one-sided don’t you think Mr. Grant?
You offer no useful alternatives, no understanding of the “side you say you’re on” or at least I assume you are on the gay side since you run a gay blog!
Gays are best served to get legislation passed that will give us full marital rights and benefits NATIONWIDE. If the religion addicts in this country don’t want to call it marriage, who the hell cares? We respect ourselves, and don’t need the blessing from people that refuse to give it. It is not our job to understand the Mormons or any other religious system. We are called to demand equal rights in this country under the laws and guidelines of Separation of Church and State. Period.
Jhon Centurri
mark
Funny UTAH is rampant with BISEXUALS not seen anywhere else in America…yeah “bisexuals “meaning a gay man married to a woman who has no inkling he’s gay, just as I stated earlier…married closet cases.
“She said there is a large Utah community of bisexuals, the least studied of sexual variations. She said she has anecdotal evidence of Utah men, sometimes married, active sexually with women and men. That puts Utah women general in a low risk AIDS group at risk in a bi sexual community.”
http://gayflower.blogspot.com/2006/12/january-1986.html
mark
well gee Shawna
you can bury your dead closeted gay husand next to his clueless straight wife who had no reason to get herself tested for AIDS and may have also transmitted AIDS to her infants.
What a swell program ya got…oh and be sure to excommunicate them too, so they believe they go to hell.
btw Shawna is rather unusual name, you may have a cousin mark…just saying
froggyola
And here is a link to something that will relieve this fucking stress we are all under. A message to gays on how to handle small minded extremists that think they have power over you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_c7NWWiUnk
mark
husband typo
Shawna
@House:
I hadn’t seen the video made by the LDS Church before. Pretty hard to mistake that for hate!
fredo777
@Phil:
“The term “Marriage” has always been used as a way to define the legal binding relationship between a man and a woman. The gay community prides itself on being different and unique… Come up with your own term and get the same legal backing. Leave my stuff alone and I’ll leave your’s alone. I could care less what you call it…just don’t call it marriage.. come up with something better..I’d support that.
In the end..just move on..Take the battle to the Supreme Court and do what you have to do. Push to get it reversed..that would be the respectable thing to do. Targeting people that voiced their contrary opinion to you only makes your cause so much less respectable. Grow up..quit whining!! You took one on the chin..now get up, brush yourself off and continue a RESPECTABLE fight. stop throwing a tantrum. You really look like babies.”
You don’t own “marriage” + there are already gay couples who share that very name for their relationships…marriage.
As for the rant about us “whining” it’s always easy to complain that someone else is whining + should “get over it” when the issue doesn’t affect you directly or hinder your own rights.
Just like it is your right to say you don’t support gay marriage, it is our right to complain about persons who think like you stripping other gays of the right to marry which was already granted to them. And that right includes complaining in any way we wish; whether or not you find it to be a “tantrum” is irrelevant.
When people are pissed, they like to vent their frustrations. And the gay community has every right to be pissed over this outcome. Don’t think for a second, though, that “pissing + moaning” will be the extent of our response to this.
We will most certainly continue to fight this + the Yes on 8 side wasn’t exactly fighting a “respectable” fight when they lied + used misleading advertising to vilify gays + encourage voters to side with them via deceptive methods.
Phillip
Wow. There is so much misinformation. I know that the religious groups can say and do as they please, within limits and still retain their tax exempt status. Acting as a PAC is not okay, this I know. A key point in this was brought up, if the Church simply “encourages” its members to donate, that’s not the same as the Church cutting a big check and is most likely legal ok. Ethically, not so much, as it’s just a side-step of the law.
As for poor Japhy: dude, do your thing. While I am fairly liberal, I like to see all people’s points. And all the hate you’ve gotten just for bringing up things people don’t want to face or process is terrible. I just sigh to myself knowing that so many pigheaded people can’t be bothered with anything other than what they want to hear. You shouldn’t even try try to lure people in with Morning Goods, though I know that readership is important to every online entity.
It’s nice to have you, and I won’t count you out yet! You’re gonna have to try a lot harder to kick me in the teeth and gay bash my head a little harder to get me to quit reading. Basically, thanks for saying something new and hopefully we can all bring the community together and promote some thought and understanding.
mark
St Serge and St Bacchus give lie to the fact the church didn’t approve same sex marriage
http://www.ashe-prem.org/five/duffy.shtml
ooops. that shoots the hell out of your argument
but take this box of rice a roni as a consellation prize
Kade
I am an active LDS member and I’m gay. I was never told that what I was doing was wrong or that I would be condemned to hell. My ward has always been very supportive of me and have always extended their hand to help!
I do believe that marriage is under attack, but has nothing to do with gays!! It has everything to do with divorce, adultery, and other MUCH larger issues!!
I recently wrote a blog on my website about these attacks and lend my support to equal rights! Check it out http://www.kaderade.com
Shawna
Actually Mark,
I don’t think you understand the doctrine of excommunication, at least as it pertains to Mormons.
It is always intended to be a temporary measure and it is always hoped that the excommunicated person will eventually return to the Church. It is considered to be a step in the repentance process. Some do return. Some don’t.
Neither of us can comment authoritatively on the case you cite, which at first glance seems so harsh. Perhaps there were circumstances that made it seem the only way. I know that seems unreasonable from your perspective, but Mormons believe there is still repentance on the other side — so this guy’s eternal fate from his own LDS perspective was not really as final as it may seem to you.
Another thing you may misunderstand is the Mormon doctrine of “hell.” It’s pretty benign. No fire and brimstone. It’s actually supposed to be a pretty great place, since God loves all his children, even the ones who mess up — which is all of us to one degree or another.
You may not agree with that from a doctrinal perspective, but just so ya know….
Stephen
I offer an opinion, I would have voted for Prop.8 had I been a resident of California. You will perhaps see why if you continue to read this comment.
I believe the underlying issue for the gay community was not the right to marry whom ever one wishes but the real issue is the desire for gay acceptance and respectably. Most people feel that is something one must earn. It is my feeling that you wanted acceptance so badly that some of you became rather bigoted in your ads. You tried to shame others into supporting you.
I also believe that deep in your hearts many of you did not want the proposition to pass. There is something bad, wrong and exciting about being outside of the norm and some people really like that kind of excitement. .
If you are chained to one person then all kinds of other, legal issues come into play. Ask your straight buddy what a devoice is like. What if after you have been together for a while and suddenly you find that love has flown out the window. See you in court your partner says, and then he takes half of all you own. Sort of takes the fun out of it. Also there is problem of the loss of the lust factor. It so fun to see some other cute guy and give your self to the moment. If you married all that has to go.
As I understand it, the money that was donated to defeat the bill came mostly out side of the gay community. And by the admission of some gays, there was a real lack of organization particularly on the local level.
Claiming that you are the object of hate often makes others feel like well maybe there are to be hated. It was said so many times all I heard was the word hate. I don’t believe most people or those that opposed you actually hate you. Most don’t really have any affection for you either. or you cause. You need to be more likeable.
I am not saying all of you really don’t want a partner for life but statistics, that I am aware of don’t’ bare this out. There is a lot of promiscuousness within the gay lifestyle. I also realize that what I have said about gays applies to heterosexual unions also. But they had the power and as long as you demand respect, some people are inclined to be a little hard hearted and deny you what you want just because that’s the way people are.. For what it is worth be a little less childish.
People thru out the US consistently vote against gay and issues that are connected to gay issues. To go crazy over the voting in California is a bit disingenuous. Settle down and regroup before you lose all credibility.
Bruno
Stephen: From start to finish, that’s the biggest wad of bullcocky I’ve ever read.
Brandon85
“Settle down and regroup before you lose all credibility”.
You never had any credibility asshole. Name one thing that restricting legal marriage to opposite sex pairs would ensure, and that removing such a restriction undermines. No one can intelligently answer these questions. You support a proposition that directly and negatively effects many citizens of this country for dumb ass or petty reasons, yet so many of you have the audacity to utter anything on this blog. You really need to shut the fuck up and bury your idiotic heads in shame. YOU are the bitches screwing people over, so all this indignation on your parts is fucking retarded as hell.
Michael vdB
Um. Is it possible to stop the name calling? I am amazed at the discussion of ideas that are going back and forth but seriously. Even a person like myself tends to shut off listening to someone who cannot carry a conversation without a personal attack like “you a$$hole.”
Gary
There is a fundamental difference between simply stating your opposing opinion vs. spend tens of millions of dollars to sic your entire brain-dead cult of superstitious fools on an out-of-state, secular matter of civil law…and civil rights.
As an editor, you should know that – that you don’t sends a chill down my spine. That you can be a fag and say that as well makes me sick.
If this is how Queerty will be from now on, I’ll find myself another blog – one that doesn’t support the negation of my fundamental, inalienable rights as a citizen of America and as a human being.
Idiot!
fredo777
@Stephen:
haha
That was a load of stereotypical garbage, from start to finish.
X-POLYGAMIST WIFE
@Roymondo:
Roymondo, you don’t know much about Mormon history or politics in Arizona and Utah regarding polygamists, do you?
POWERFUL MORMON LEGISLATURES in Utah and Arizona have ignored polygamy since the 1953 raid on Short Creek. Why? Because polygamy is an embarrassment to the Mormon Church, that’s why, and they don’t give a crap about women and children.
If you want to know what’s really going on, rent a copy of BANKING ON HEAVEN at Netflix, or order a DVD on Amazon.
Mormon leaders told EVERY WARD in California to raise 25,000 to stop gay marriage in Hawaii, and they did. There are 160 Wards in California, you do the math. And now Prop 8. Mormons have been behind the gay marriage ban for a very long time, yet they IGNORE the worst kind of marriage in their own backyard – POLYGAMY.
Gays don’t hurt children, POLYGAMISTS DO.
There are 50-100,000 Mormon polygamists in the Utah region who for 8 generations have been stripped of their democratic and human rights. Polygamists practice TYRANNY over women and children, and most of them live off taxpayer handouts.
FLDS polygamists receive 25-30 million a year in taxpayer handouts, and the FLDS only represent 10-15% of Mormon polygamists. In 1953 there were less than 300 FLDS polygamists in Colorado City and Hildale, Utah. Today there are 10,000!!! In 70 years, at their current rate of growth (5-7 X nat ave), there will be 3 million polygamists in the FLDS alone!!!
Utah needs LONG-TERM programs to help polygamous families transition OUT of a society where they’ve robbed of there democratic rights. The Mormon Church started polygamy, and when it was outlawed, Mormons did NOTHING to police polygamy. So don’t tell me the Mormon Church isn’t responsible. That;s like saying America isn’t responsible for black slavery.
Mormons turn a blind eye on their own people, tens of thousands of innocent women and children who live under tyranny, are raped, enslaved, and deprived of education and socialization while the Mormons spend 25 MILLION ON PROP 8.
OH YE HYPOCRITES BEHIND ZION’S IRON CURTAIN !!!
(I will not respond to anymore of your ignorance. You’re like Ed Smart at the Lost Boys rally in BANKING ON HEAVEN when he said (ad lib) “I knew about issues with polygamous women, but I didn’t know there was a problem with Lost Boys.”
Imagine that! Elizabeth Smart is kidnapped and raped by a polygamist, goes missing for nine months, and her father doesn’t even know about the LOST BOYS.
Mormons = DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL
X-POLYGAMIST WIFE
@Stephen:
Steven said…”I am not saying all of you really don’t want a partner for life but statistics, that I am aware of don’t’ bare this out.”
What an IGNORANT thing to say! Try having a stable relationship when you’re family shuns you, society doesn’t accept you, your gov’t denies you equal status, religious leaders say you’re evil, and you have to live in a closet.
Are you really that ignorant? Did you forget to take sociology 101? Hetero divorce rates hit 50% – look who’s talking!!!
mark
Stephen is selling what they try to tell STRAIGHT people about gays, it challenges none of their stereotypes of gays.
Stephen if you wanted to know what queers think…SHUT UP and ASK SOME.
No straight person, no matter how empathetic, KNOWS on a viceral level what being gay is like.
You don’t know how a 5 yo KNOWS it’s DIFFERENT even before it has any concept of sexual attraction. You don’t know what it’s like to see advertising, and books and TV and movies that say you SHOULD be THIS….and you’re not.
You don’t know what it’s like to be raised by YOUR ENEMIES, who would throw you out in the street with NOTHING but the clothes your wearing at 15 yo…to somehow survive on your OWN.
Eric
Stephen;
I am inclined to agree with you. I don’t think this was about marriage either. I too think it was about acceptance — and you can’t bludgeon people into accepting you.
Culture evolves at its own pace. Laws don’t change attitudes.
Brandon85
“Even a person like myself tends to shut off listening to someone who cannot carry a conversation without a personal attack like “you a$$hole.”
Who the hell cares? Seriously
fredo777
@Eric:
Fuck acceptance.
Gay-haters can toss my salad, really. Just don’t block my legal rights.
Eric
Polygamist wife:
Few people like the idea of polygamy, but what do you honestly expect Mormons or even the Utah government to do about it when these people have chosen to live that way…?
They just can’t drag kids from their mothers on the assumption that their fathers are child molesters, and they can’t drag women from their husbands on the assumption that their husbands are abusive.
Unless people want to make adultery and having children out of wedlock crimes punishable by law, you can’t really go after the FLDS because they at least marry the women they sleep with and they take responsibility for the children they produce….
If there is abuse in these communities that is tragic, but nobody can do anything about it unless each victim complains about it. You can’t have a mass assumption of guilt as there was in Texas.
Roymondo
@X-POLYGAMIST WIFE:
I am convinced you are mentally ill. How can you possibly blame UTAH LEGISLATORS who happen to be Mormon for what the LDS Church does? Certainly you nkow that the Church is governed by the First Presidency right? Utah Legislators and Arizona Legislators are the ones that put Warren Jeffs on Trial. Did you forget that? You are totally off mark blaming the LDS Church for the sins of Warren Jeffs people. Remeber the El Dorado raid? Remember how they returned all of the kids because they found NO SIGNS OF ABUSE? I’m not doubting there has been abuse in that clan. I also am not doubting there is abuse in many organizations throughout the world. What possibly can the LDS do? Even if they did do something you’s still find fault with Mormons. The day people stop hating Mormons is the day the LDS Church isn’t true. This is God’s Church, it must have opposition to make that claim. The battle between good and evil is real. It’s time to choose sides.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
I choose the side whose members aren’t being encouraged to donate millions in order to remove already granted marriage rights from gay families.
Roymondo
@fredo777:
Are traditional marriage lovers automatically Gay-haters?
Are traditional marriage lovers automatically Polygamist-haters?
If same-sex marriage is ok, why isn’t polygamy ok? Why isn’t polygamy with underage brides ok? What if a man loves 10 women? Can he marry them all? Is it fair to grant rights to gays and not polygamist? That’s a serious question you have to address when you open the marriage flood gates.
ChristopherM
I am uncertain why it is a bad idea to blame the Mormon Church. No one is saying blame Mormons as a general membership, but blaming the CHURCH is entirely valid. The Church is represented by its leadership which raised the money to get this thing passed, far more than any other group. The fact is without the efforts of The Church, this would not have happened. Just like it was appropriate to protest The Catholic Church during the days of ACT-UP without protesting all Catholics, this is entirely appropriate. Their leadership is to blame.
Roymondo
@fredo777:
The biggest mistake was by allowing those 18000 marriages. The prop8 supporters wanted to suspend the marriages until the November vote but they didn’t and now look at the problem. They should have listened. Now you have the problem of annulling all of those. If you watch the LDS video you can see members were encouraged to get involved. They weren’t required and they weren’t punished for net getting involved. You’re still blaming Mormons for it’s passing when your side raised several million more. You’re just what they call in little league a “sore loser”. There are proper avenues to appeal and get this back on a ballot. The rioting, vandalism (7 utah churches so far), etc. isn’t helping your cause. You will never win unless you get the religious vote. The more you alienate religious people the more your cause suffers. Play by the rules, respect your fellow man, and prove to the world that their fears aren’t true. Right now you’re just affirming everything religious folks fear.
Roymondo
@ChristopherM:
The Mormon Church has no problem with your anger. They have addressed it in a PR a few days ago. It is understandable. The issue is singling out just the Mormon Church as if they were the sole cause of the proposition. When it comes down to it, it was the voters not the money that passed prop 8. Even with all of the Mormon money the Yes side was still outspent by your side. So here you are blaming us for contributing funds when your side actually contributed more (and you still lost)! Unbelievable. Am I angry and NO supporters? Absolutley not. They had a right to vote, voted, and lost. I don’t agree with Apple and Google contributing money, does that mean I won’t buy an ipod? Of course not. It’s just a big tantrum by a bunch of selfish perpetual children.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
Ugh. Not the tired slippery slope argument. Again.
If limiting marriage to man + woman is OK, why not start restricting it to only men + women of the same religion? Or race? Or eye color?
I mean, as long as the majority gets to weigh in, why not put that to a vote + if the majority of voters think it’s ok to make interracial marriage illegal again, we should dissolve those, too.
That argument is flawed, at best. We are not talking about marrying children or marrying multiple people or even marrying inanimate objects or animals.
We are talking about two unrelated, consenting adults marrying each other. If you want to argue about cousins or brothers marrying each other or men marrying ten wives, cross that bridge when (or if) we come to it.
As it stands, I’m not going to have my rights removed or denied based on a shoulda-coulda-woulda scenario that might never even come to pass.
And, religious folks’ fears are of little import to me. They can feel free to practice their religion as long as they don’t try to impose their religious views on my life + limit my ability to marry the partner of my choosing.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
“Am I angry and (sic) NO supporters? Absolutley not. They had a right to vote, voted, and lost. I don’t agree with Apple and Google contributing money, does that mean I won’t buy an ipod? Of course not. It’s just a big tantrum by a bunch of selfish perpetual children.”
Why aren’t you angry at NO supporters? Because you didn’t stand to lose anything with the failure or passing of Prop 8. Had the situation been reversed + heteros or Mormons lost their rights to marry based on the will of the majority + I’ll bet the farm that’d you be just as pissed off. It’s easy to be aloof when you have nothing to lose in the fight.
fredo777
* based on the will of the majority, I’ll bet the farm…
Roymondo
If gay marriage was an acceptable option it would have passed resoundingly in California. In 2000 it lost, in 2008 it lost again. Even with the Hollywood dollars, the Google, Apple, etc. money still didn’t sway the hearts of voters from what is right. This may be a poor generalization, but I would say that a majority of the NO voters are not religious folks. I know they aren’t on this message board. Look at what the Mormons went through with Mitt Romney getting the cold shoulder by the “religious right”. We basically were told a Mormon isn’t good enough to be president. Where are the Mormon riots? We would have a pretty good reason to protest don’t you think? My points being that a) unless you can qualm the fears of the religious right you’ll never win, and b) Don’t tell Mormons they don’t understand bigotry when the “religious right” fears us more than they do gays. You see the Evangelicals are in a predicament after the Prop8 backlash. If we side we gays we look pro-gay, and if we defend Mormons, we look like we accept them. The most shocking revelation is the silence of the other faiths involved in the passing of 8. Only 1 catholic bishop (who lived in Utah for 11 years) has come to our defense. If you want to overturn 8 it will only come from convincing everyone BUT Mormons of your cause. They hate us more than you.
mark
I found a list of Sundance corporate sponsors
here’s the link
http://www.sundance.org/festival/press_industry/releases/2008-01-14-sponsors.asp
2008 Sundance Film Festival Sponsors
The 2008 Sundance Film Festival Sponsors help sustain Sundance Institute’s year-round programs to support independent artists, inspire risk-taking, and encourage diversity in the arts. This year’s Festival Sponsors include: Presenting Sponsors – Entertainment Weekly, Volkswagen of America, Inc., HP, and Adobe Systems Incorporated; Leadership Sponsors – American Express, Delta Air Lines, DIRECTV, and Microsoft Corporation; Sustaining Sponsors – 360 Vodka, Blockbuster Inc., ChaCha, L’Oréal Paris, The New York Times, Ray-Ban, Sony Electronics, Inc., Stella Artois®, Turning Leaf Vineyards, Utah Film Commission, and ZonePerfect® Nutrition Bars. Sundance Channel is the Official Television Network of the 2008 Sundance Film Festival.
Shawna
As you see, the Sundance Film Festival and its sponsors are not exactly the blazing bastion of conservatism.
mark
First my partner (of 6 years)and I would NEVER choose marriage for ourselves.
Second I don’t enjoy contact with straight people, and avoid them when possible, when interaction is unavoidable I treat them civilly, but just as an aquaintance, they aren’t my friends.
Third their approval/disapproval is exactly the same to me…it means NOTHING. At least 90% of heterosexuals I know fall into the following catagories:
they hate you to your face
or
they hate you behind your back
mark
Shawna,
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/pspauld/n32307044756_2582.jpg
EXACTLY and they are companies which want to continue a good relationship with gays/lesbians
Each sponsor I wrote with a letter similar to this
“Robert Redford and Sundance film festival,
You KNOW gays/lesbains, as fans, friends, and colleagues. Would you suppose the people you KNOW while their families are under attack, will remember who stood with them, and who DIDN’T?
If you answered the later, I would say you don’t KNOW gays and lesbians. DECADES later I STILL won’t buy FL Orange Juice or Coors beer, and that won’t change. “
fredo777
@Roymondo:
If it was an acceptable option? Uh, there are places where gays can get married in the States + elsewhere. Also, the prop only passed by about half a million votes. Out of about 10 million total votes. That’s huge. Trust me, this fight is far from over + I highly doubt that gay marriage in Cali has taken its last breath.
Society evolves. Minds change. It’ll happen. Mark my words. There was a time when “traditional/conventional marriage” in this nation meant two people of the same race. That has changed + so marriage will evolve again. Need I remind you that Mass. already has gay marriage + your nuptials haven’t disintegrated as a result?
Btw, Mormons having been shunned by evangelicals is not really the topic here. You can still marry the person of your choice, can’t you?
froggyola
Thers is no “santity of marriage” anymore in heterosexual culture. You can’t seem to make your own marriages work so don’t attempt to pretend you all know anything about marriage for gays. My born-again Christian sister, married to her born-again husband for thirty miserable turbulent years, finally DIVORCED. Even your imaginary “god-centered” marriages bite the dust when people aren’t happy. Save your “sanctity of marriage” illusions and leave gay people out of your misguided agenda. Equal rights for all. PERIOD.
froggyola
Roymondo, please get informed. The Yes on 8 temporary victory is not retroactive. The 18,000 gay marriges stick. They will not be anulled. Please check your facts with reliable sources, not just what you and your bigot friends discuss over the backyard fence.
Roymondo
@mark:
Paranoia? Have you tried medication?
Roymondo
@froggyola:
Last I checked it was still up in the air on annullments. Rosie O’donnel claimed they would be annulled and last I checked she’s on your side of the backyard fence. By the way…who are you calling a bigot, bigot.? Your actions are equally if not more bigoted than anyone else. Essentially any inroads your gay friends had made in the last 25 years toward acceptance were severed the day after the election. You’re back in the stone age again…and you have the audacity to call ME a bigot?
Brandon85
Have you, Roymondo?!! Why the fuck are you still here anyway?
Roymondo
@froggyola:
The biggest economic loser in the prop 8 passage is the dicorce attorneys. They were chomping at the bit for all the gay divorces. Do you nkow the #1 reason hetero couples stay married? You guessed it KIDS. No matter how much you claim to love each other you will never be able to provide a child with a mother and father’s love. Your adopted kids (I pray for them) will never under any circumstance have the benefit of a Father and a Mother. Do you think it was a cooincidence God created MAN and WOMAN? why didn’t God just create all men and be done with it? Gay marriage is physically retarded, morally retarded, socially retarded, scientifically retarded, spiritually retarded, and quite possibly mentally retarded.
Roymondo
divorce attorneys, (my spelling sucks)
Roymondo
@Brandon85:
I’m not paranoid.
Brandon85
Prove that it wasn’t a coincidence, mr. expert on retardation. No facts point to the direction that is was anything else. Once again, why the fuck are you on this site? The editor needs to ban this fucker.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
Your spelling isn’t all that sucks about what you just typed.
Btw, instead of praying for our adopted kids, why don’t you go out + adopt a bunch of them yourself? I’m sure they’d prefer a loving home over some douchebag praying for them while they remain in the system.
Brandon85
But you are, Roy. But you are.
froggyola
Roymondo, get some therapy. You’re not even a good bigot. The real bigots show some intelligence. You just show a childish flirting with gays on this blog. Do you want to be one of us but are afraid? You say you think we’re retarded. Fine. Go away and think we’re retarded but, why do you need to berate your limited ignorant rantings with people whom you believe to be retarded? Think about it and ask yourself if this is your real purpose in life.
Roymondo
@Brandon85:
How old were you when you found out you were gay? 15? 18?
So how were you born gay? Did the doctor diagnose you with Gay? There is no scientific proof you are born gay. Until there is you are medically known as straight with SSA. Is being gay a disability? Unless you are born with it or it’s a disablity this cannot possibly be a civil rights issue. You guys on this board are too selfish and mean to raise kids anyway. You could change that though. Don’t you ever wonder what it would be like to have your own flesh and blood children? God gave you that ability and America gave you that right. Use it.
Roymondo
@froggyola:
You’re not retarded….gay marriage is.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
Newsflash: being gay doesn’t mean our sperm doesn’t work. Lots of gay men do have flesh + blood kids. Some of them from prior relationships, some from surrogates, + others with female friends or lesbian friends who also want biological kids. It happens all the time.
Broaden your horizons. I’m not saying you can’t post here b/c you’re hetero, but at least have the sense to learn about the people you’re judging if you’re going to be on our “turf”.
froggyola
Roymondo, what is retarded is that you have spent the last 24 hours spewing negative and uninformed comments to gay people on a gay blog. If you feel you have a higher calling in life, and I believe that you do, why not spend some of that time helping people? Even if you just want to help people that are just like you. I think you would find a great deal of peace and would feel less inclined to attempt to hurt people with your words. If you truely honor the life that you claim is precious before God, than why not go use it for some good?
Brandon85
The sad thing is that he probably isn’t hetero….instead a pathetic gay man who needs some serious help.
Roymondo
@fredo777:
Learn about the people posting here? Aren’t you the one who wouldn’t read the LDS Proclamation on the Family? What you described to me about having kids with lesbians doesn’t sound very gay to me. It sounds like selfish adults who are more concerned about personal pleasure then rearing a child with a mother and a father.
Shawna
Mark,
Ahh, I see. I wondered if you were out to get Robert Redford and co just because he lives in Utah.
Bg1137
who are these new editors? Did they used to work @ fox? I used to love this blog i’m kind of sad…not sure i believe it anymore
Roymondo
@Brandon85:
I’m just as hetero as every man and woman in the world. I just don’t have SSA tendencies. My older brother in Manhatten does and acts upon those tendencies. I love him, but he’s not happy. I know it kills him when he sees me on holidays, etc with my kids because doesn’t have that joy that only comes from a mother and father rearing their children together. What he does in his personal life with other men is his decisions and he can live with it without my interference. But this I know; he has become a very sad person due to his SSA struggles. It actually breaks my heart to see him go through it because he used to be such a happy guy until he was about 27. He decided to act on the temptations of sexual sin outside of marriage and he lost something spiritually. He’s a brilliant guy, Columbia PHD student, but he is also on numerous anti-depressants and has been suicidal. This is my best friend older brother. Our family will never stop loving him but he knows we don’t agree with his lifestyle. He respects it and I respect him. The only difference between us is he has lost that spiritual light. I used to be the troublemaker kid and he was always on track. Now that has all changed as he’s been addicted to cocaine and been involved in who knows what else. It’s not a happy lifestyle. It’s not a lifestyle to bring innocent children into. That’s the problem prop8 supporters have with your cause.
Stephen
It would seem the gay community is a cowardly bunch, that is they have turned totally inward and don’t even know it. Your feelings are hurt and you are striking out at the easy targets.
The black’s of SoCal did not support gays for many reason but one of them was their lack of support for black issues in the past. That’s the feeling I get from reading black responses to prop 8 on other sites. If fact the LA Times reports the vote was 2 to 1 in support of the proposition among blacks. Nor did the latino neighborhoods in ELA give their endorsement to gays. Yet, not one of you commenting on this site has had the courage to condemn either group. Nor have you yet to picket a black church in South LA. It matters who voted against gays more than any money given to support the issue? It is not more likely that 52% of California’s voters said that is going a little to far, i.e. marriage within the same sex. The voters drew the land in the sand. Many of them belonging to no church at all. Yes, the mormons gave more but so what they didn’t defeate the issue people from all walks of life said no.
Lots of moral issue are decided by voters. Didn’t you know that going in.
The voters that voted in favor of prop 8 to justify their vote will draw closer to the Catholic and Mormon Churches if you keepup this silly haranguing.
Quit the cowardlyness get opening mad at everyone. Be a little consistant. Pull out your hair, jump up and down, cry day an night it wont’ change the vote. Decrying the Mormon people will not change their vote next time. You will have to change the minds of more voters that voted yes to eight. Relax….
farmer ted
If homosexuality isn’t a choice, then how do “y’all” explain the whole “queer by choice” faction? They actually consider it “homophobic” to use the “of course I was born this way, do you think I’d CHOOSE this?” line of reasoning.
fredo777
@Roymondo:
“Aren’t you the one who wouldn’t read the LDS Proclamation on the Family?”
Apples + oranges. I didn’t come to a Mormon-themed blog + start ranting about what Mormons should + shouldn’t be able to do. You started posting nonsense about gays here + exposed your own ignorance.
As for that latter bit about gays + their kids, that’s not your place to judge. What is selfish, ironically enough, is people like yourself trying to horde the term marriage + its legal rights for yourselves because you “had it first”. Pfft.
fredo777
@farmer ted:
“If homosexuality isn’t a choice, then how do “y’all” explain the whole “queer by choice” faction? They actually consider it “homophobic” to use the “of course I was born this way, do you think I’d CHOOSE this?” line of reasoning.”
Don’t give a shit. They can tell any story they wish about why they’re gay but they don’t speak for me or the millions of other gays who didn’t choose to be attracted to the same sex.
Next…
fredo777
@Roymondo:
Perhaps your brother would be happier if he didn’t have his family blindly passing judgment against him + making prejudiced comments about his being gay as a “lifestyle”.
He’s one person. There are unhappy gay persons just as there are unhappy hetero ones (even ones with kids + spouses!). Shocker.
rigso
If the gays get mad at the A.A community for not standing up to our rights, we are racists and bigots. If we get mad at the Mormon Church, we are godless heathens who are attacking religions, and this from someone in our own Community! WELL, here is what I think, they are the godless bigots, and we have the DAMN right to stand up to all these groups that are hurting us, we don’t need to be goddamn PC about it either, you suck!
rigso
@Roymondo: Wow, pure ignorance. I know plenty of straight people who are unhappy and use drugs, does that say something about the straight lifestyle? NO! Just like your coke-head brother doesnt say anything about gays, I’m for one happy and jolly and can’t wait to adopt a kid one day!
fredo777
@Stephen:
Is anything you post on this issue not going to be half-baked nonsense?
There has been plenty of discussion about voters from different ethnic groups supporting Prop 8, but the bottom line is that plenty of the money used to reach those voters in the first place with ads, etc. came from LDS members.
As for the rest of your post, it was all over the place. Suffice it to say, though, you’re wrong on about 90% of it + the majority voting to deny rights for the minority is not appropriate in our particular gov’t. Just read some of my earlier posts for the response to why. I don’t plan on reiterating it a zillion times for those who can’t be effed to scroll up a bit.
froggyola
Rally in NYC WEDNESDAY. Google it!!!!!!
Brett
@Bg1137:
It’s probably a good thing to have your ideas challenged occasionally rather than only read stuff you agree with.
Roymondo
Scream and pout all you want. Homosexuality is a an degenerate behavior that can be controlled. You may be born with the tendencies but you are also born with self control. Also we would appreciate if your tolerant “non-bigotted” friends would stop vandalizing our churches.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=4762579&comments=true
froggyola
Ignore the idiots on this blog and spread the word about the rally in NYC on Wednesday!!!!!! Thousands are expected with HUGE media coverage!!!!
mark
Roymondo and stephen
EXACTLY the type of straights I would never allow anywhere near MY LIFE.
How about you two hets find a place, where someone wants you?
fredo777
@Roymondo:
So, basically, you’re getting your ass tapped in the debate + resort to more + more ugly replies like calling gayness “degenerate behavior”.
I have now lost what modicum of respect for you I might have had at the beginning of this discussion.
Fuck off.
Alipi
its absolutely shocking how many gay people have their heads up their ass at a moment like this. “Don’t offend the mormons”, “don’t be too angry” – go fuck yourself.
OUTRAGEOUS ACTIONS MERIT OUTRAGE
Also – to our mormon friendlies:
The fact that you don’t want to be hated for the actions of your church does not make you supporters of gay rights. SUPPORTING GAY RIGHTS makes you supporters of gay rights. Until you do, your words are bullshit.
mdh60610
As a gay former Mormon I can understand both sides. The Mormon’s posting are choosing selective hearing as to the doctrine misrepresentations. Semantics. To my community – yes be mad – but remember that somewhere out there is a 13 yo boy or girl who will harm themselves unless we show them some hope from both sides. Let’s exercise the rights we all have. And yes I am disappointed and angry. But my Mormon mother chose not to vote in this election because she couldn’t reconcile this issue. Babysteps. Always has been.
mark
NYC
let the Mormons hear our RAGE in stereo from BOTH coasts
Bitch Republic
@#113
Mormons do not like being called Mormons. They like being called “Latter-day Saints.” The only reason they have Mormons.org is because another group was using it as a porn site, so they bought it from them to stop the name associated with their church from being used in that way and posted information about their church instead.
How do I know this? Because I was raised Mormon.
froggyola
Bitch Republic I am not that concerned right now with what Mormans want to be called. I want to be called equal and the religious idiots in this country, many whom are Morman, want to stop that. Please help in another way.
Jack E. Jett
Well Mr. Grant;
You seem to be off to a riveting start.
Let’s see, gays against gays
blacks against gays
mormoms against gays
you against gays against mormoms
mormoms bashing gays on a gay site
Is this the vibe going for?
Doug
@pixel105:
Pixel105: Talk “Banking on Heaven” is the best example of biased bigot based propaganda, and your comment “No. 27” is untrue. Momons are not polygamists. FLDS is not LDS, they are a sect of the mormon church that continues to practice polygamy. And for those of you twits that don’t understand the concept of what a “sect” is like the director of this movie, they are basically people that got kicked out of the church for continuing the to practice polygamy and so they formed thier own church claiming to believe in all the same things but just to include polygamy. If you want a real lesson in mormonism try going to one of their churches on sunday morning at 9am. Won’t be very interesting if you are evangelical but you will see just husband and wife.
ChristopherM
@Roymondo:
Of course you aren’t angry. You weren’t the one who had your civil rights stripped. I love how we’re all supposed to play nice now because reasonable people can disagree. Well, the fact is that either way that vote went, your life would not have been changed. Mine was changed drastically. You should be ashamed. Millions upon millions of dollars, and rather than doing something with it that Jesus would have done, instead of feeding people or housing people, you chose to play politics. You’re damn right I’m angry. And your leaders who stirred so much of this up are going to have to answer for it, either in this life, or perhaps the next.
asa1973
@mdh60610: I love you mdh60610. Yes, baby steps…
Your partner, asa1973.
mark
The LDS members in my family didn’t speak very often about their religion….CHRIST! I miss the days when talking religion and politics was condsidered BAD MANNERS.
seitan-on-a-stick
Mormons are just Morons with an upended ‘W’ in their Cult-like name. They are so far from Christianity, their spaceship has to stop at Uranus for Gas (and I’m not talking New Jerseey)
fredo777
@seitan-on-a-stick:
“Mormons are just Morons with an upended ‘W’ in their Cult-like name.”
What about the Mormons who were on our side during this Prop 8 fight? And the gay mothers of Mormons who were against Prop 8? Or the gays who still consider themselves Mormons?
I don’t think we wanna go there, man.
I have no problem with calling out those who are against us,@seitan-on-a-stick:
“Mormons are just Morons with an upended ‘W’ in their Cult-like name.”
What about the Mormons who were on our side during this Prop 8 fight? And the gay mothers of Mormons who were against Prop 8? Or the gays who still consider themselves Mormons?
I don’t think we wanna go there, man.
I have no problem with calling out those who are against us, specifically, but it’s no better of us to dog all religions + all religious persons while getting indignant about our own being blindly discriminated against.
fredo777
Sorry for that post getting garbled.
Not sure how the fuck that happened.
Must have been when there was some kind of glitch on my end with the comment box + me dragging my mouse kind of funny. It should read:
@seitan-on-a-stick:
“Mormons are just Morons with an upended ‘W’ in their Cult-like name.”
What about the Mormons who were on our side during this Prop 8 fight? And the gay mothers of Mormons who were against Prop 8? Or the gays who still consider themselves Mormons?
I don’t think we wanna go there, man.
I have no problem with calling out those who are against us, specifically, but it’s no better of us to dog all religions + all religious persons while getting indignant about our own being blindly discriminated against.
lil'bitcuntry
I was gonna ask all y’all why some people insist on generalizing and categorizing, but I already know it’s because so people are wiser than others.
lil'bitcuntry
I was gonna ask all y’all why some people insist on generalizing and categorizing, but I already know it’s because some (oops!) people are wiser than others (and we all make mistakes, too : >).
recent supporter
I appreciate your article. I voted for Obama and did not donate to or vote on prop 8. However, I have been appalled at the vandalism, threats and specific anti-Mormon actions since the elections. When the issue comes to the ballot again in CA, I will gladly donate in support of the measure because I have found the actions of the gay community since the passing of prop-8 to be anti-religious, intolerant, hypocritical, and completely scary to someone like me who believes I should be able to vote on any cause in the US without fear for my home, my job or my the safety of my family. I have seen the video of the little old woman in Florida being surrounded and screamed at on You Tube – one crazy guy was advocating violence against her and others like her with a TV camera in his face!! I have seen the video of the group of angry anti-8 voters who went to a woman’s restaurant in CA and shouted at her, screamed anti-religious remarks at her made her feel threatened and then demanded that she apologize FOR HER VOTE and for donating $100 to a cause she believes in – she fled her place of work in tears. These kinds of acts not to mention the vandalism and lists of donors names and contact information and in some cases license plates on anti-8 sites, have left me with little sympathy for a group calling for tolerance and respect. You have lost mine and galvanized me for a cause I had little prior interest in.
fredo777
@recent supporter:
B.S.
Anyone who would stop supporting gay rights because of the actions of some persons who are (rightfully) pissed about the results of the Prop 8 vote was never a real ally in the first place.
It’s not exactly like the Pro-prop 8 folks were above lying + vilifying the gays in order to get what they wanted. So, I’m not going out of my way to apologize if some of us aren’t being passive + obedient in the aftermath of having our rights stripped away.
fredo777
Not to mention the fact that Yes on 8 wasn’t above trying to extort money from No on 8 supporters + blackmail them, with the threat that they’d make it known that they were against “traditional marriage, blah, blah, blah” unless they also donated to the Yes on 8 campaign.
recent supporter
@fredo777: “I’m not going out of my way to apologize if some of us aren’t being passive + obedient”
I expected the gay community to immediately publicly condemn those in their ranks that are promoting violence and vandalism against persons and property in the wake of prop 8. By not doing so it seems like they condone such actions – how is that in any way helping the perception of the gay community?
fredo777
@recent supporter:
Yawn.
People are going to think what they want to think. To be honest, I don’t really care what the public thinks of me as long as I have my rights, which shouldn’t rely upon a majority vote anyway.
As for how people “perceive” us, how do people perceive the religious or otherwise anti-gay community based on the actions of some of their members, like psycho Fred Phelps + his gay-bashing Westboro Baptist Church.
The religious community is not a monolith + you can’t judge the whole by the few. The same goes for the LGBT community.
fredo777
* Church?
froggyola
@Japhy Grant: And you are, you know, no good at this.