The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (their style guide prefers you call them that) is shocked-SHOCKED that the gay community is holding them accountable for the passage of Proposition 8. "It is disturbing that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being singled out for speaking up as part of its democratic right in a free election", a statement from the Church reads. And truth be told, the gay community is singling out the church, which contributed an estimated 70% of the money for the Yes on 8 campaign. Queerty breaks down the talking points you'll be hearing up until the moment jihad breaks out somewhere near St. George, Utah.
"Mormons bought Prop. 8 with their Mormon gold": Well, yes Virginia, they did. There's a reason that Prop. 8 was the costliest election battle in the nation this year, save for that whole Presidential thing–and that reason comes from Salt Lake. The church sent letters to members, held video conferences and called from volunteers from the pulpit to help pass Prop. 8. That still doesn't make the website Mormons for 8, which has downloadable spreadsheets listing all Mormon Yes on 8 donors, any less creepy.
"Mormons ought to have their tax exempt status removed!": There's a VERY ANGRY website up called Mormons Stole Our Rights, which is calling for the church to be stripped of its tax-exempt status for preaching politics from the pulpit. It got help by being linked to by Perez Hilton, The Stranger, The Advocate blah, blah, blah and now 300,000 people have signed a petition that will never ever in a million years happen. Shockingly, the Constitution is pretty liberal when it comes to allowing preachers to say pretty much whatever they gosh darn feel like saying. Also, this tactic seems likely to muddle the waters further, only convincing more people that gay marriage would in fact, infringe on religious freedom.
"The only reason Mormons donated all this money is to get in good with the evangelical right.": If you didn't know already, Mormons are a very persecuted people, too. In fact, their candidate, Mitt Romney was universally reviled by social conservative candidates during the primary. Evangelicals take a dim view of the LDS, refusing to consider them Christians, which is one of the reasons why they make sure to have the name 'Jesus Christ' in their name. The thinking goes that if the church were to help pass Prop. 8, they'd get in good with evangelicals. Sounds plausabile on the surface, as long as you don't know any Mormons or evangelicals. At the center of the LDS faith is the family and their motives in protecting it are genuine. That and evangelicals will hate the LDS no matter what.
"Mormons are polygamists! Grr! Arrrgh!": For crying out loud, stop with the polygamy thing already. Polygamy has been outlawed by the church since 1860 after the federal government threatened to put Utah under martial law and has been ever since. Yes, on a theological level, multiple marriage still has a place in the church, but your average LDS member finds the practice abhorent. In fact, one of the main problems for Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints trying to make it mainstream Mormon society is the discrimination they face from LDS members. From the Mormon perspective, who gave up their wacky marriage rights to protect the family, there's no hypocrisy.
"If we just talk to the Mormons, they'll understand that we just want civil rights and don't threaten their sacred celestial marriages.": I don't think anyone is actually saying this, but I'm including it because it's important to point out that not all Mormons are against gay marriage. Steve Young, former 49er and great-great-great grandson of church founder Brigham Young had a No on 8 sign on his lawn. LDS mothers of gay children held a candlelight vigil protesting Prop. 8 in Temple Square. The issue is genuinely dividing the church and tarring and feathering the whole church is just as intolerant as what Prop 8. supporters are doing. One of the reasons I was eager to leave the rally that was held in WeHo on Wednesday was that after a speaker made a long plea to remember that not all black folks voted for Prop 8., she continued by saying "The one group we should blame is the Mormon Church."
Hmm. I never thought we'd see another homocon running Queerty. What happened, the gig at Gay Patriot not pan out, Mr. Grant?
Day one and I already can't stand ya.
Ditto
Srsly. Where'd this guy come from? Is this Fox news?
Sadly, there is much misinformation out there. One important point is that LDS leaders have officially stated that they have no problem with domestic partnerships. Mormons - even leaders - have no desire to deny gays the rights they deserve.
This new editor might just help me move on from this site. Something is kinda repulsive here.
Our new editor dearest Jeffrey Orlinski/Japhy Grant (was Daffy already taken?) is a Taurus. Taurus’ blow hot, they blow cold but mostly they just blow! Mass Exodus to Towleroad. Born in 1979 so he really only knows Reagan and the Bushies, Yuck
Willard,
The "rights I deserve" are equal treatment under the law.
That you think I deserve less than a drunk frat boy who just met a dancer in Vegas and stumbled into a chapel says a great deal about your understanding of the concept of "all men are created equal".
@willard:
"One important point is that LDS leaders have officially stated that they have no problem with domestic partnerships. Mormons - even leaders - have no desire to deny gays the rights they deserve."
Umm…we DESERVE complete equality, not a separate but equal status. We should not be willing to accept anything except complete equal rights under the law. Domestic Partnerships are a useless political tool to try and satiate our appetite for the complete rights we deserve.
Awesome write up! Couldn't agree more! As a gay Mormon I don't think we should be targeting the Mormon Church with anger and hatred, although I am quite upset with Prop 8 passing and their involvment in it's passing. We do need to stand up, we do need to protest, we do need to make change, but protesting the Mormons won't bring this about. Marching on our government, protesting our state leaders, working with the legal bodies that can make a difference is the key. Everyone has a right to believe as they want, even the Mormon's who don't believe in gay marriage. We as a gay community need to be better than them, we need to show the Mormons why we are better by not following an "Eye for an Eye" mentality. Hatred never makes change. Let's turn our anger away from the Mormons and to our courts and CA state reps, let's really demand the equal rights we deserve.
Here's how I see it:
I have Mormon friends. I will continue to give them sh*t to their face until I feel better, and yes perhaps our friendships will suffer. I am disappointed in them. Because watching someone die from a car wreck and not doing anything about it is just as bad as causing the car wreck. There are no 'innocent bystanders' here - not even myself as I personally probably could have done more.
"Just following orders" doesn't work for me, either.
As the Mormons have discovered, a great thing about America is that you're free to be a bigot - and say it loud and proud.
Another great thing is that you're free to organize and boycott Mormon-owned businesses, petition to revoke the Mormon's tax-free status, educate your community and reach out to other causes to strengthen your own.
But let me get back to my point; There's this thing called accountability.
Truly, it's nothing personal on my part. I find it hard to hate an entire 'class' of people because I'm not a bigot. And I do still love my Mormon friends.
But the truth of the matter is that Mormons want to be a lobbying group AND a religion. They cannot be both.
They have made clear moves into the land of lobbying. Therefore their tax-exempt status should be revoked. It's not personal.
Not nearly as personal as their actions of hate feel to my family.
-Nevada
How long until they excommunicate Steve Young?
The mormons are a sick, vile cult.
They can go and do their freaky, magical salamander, child raping in some desert in Utah but stay the hell out of the lives of everyone else.
"saying something from the pulpit" is quite different from funding $25 million to get the prop to pass. non-profit/tax exempt organizations are, by definition, NOT allowed to try to influence public policy or law.
Wow. This is so filled with factual inaccuracies that I don't know where to begin. Yes, Japhy, the Mormon Church (I'll call them what I want; I don't care what their preferred moniker is) is free to preach whatever it wants. But when the church itself funds a ballot initiative, it has crossed the line set for it under IRS code. Look it up. Are you a Mormon by any chance? Or just an apologist for them?
I'm loving the angry responses to your posts, Japhy, especially the blindly prejudicial gays who think of your measured analysis of their reactionary ignorance as "conservative." Have fun at Towleroad, boys!
Apparently it's a faux pas to criticize any group for their overwhelming votes for Prop 8. I guess nobody's actually responsible for its passage! Must've been god's will or something…
I guess if the LDS cut a $25 million dollar check and memo'd it "Pass Prop. 8" the "Strip the LDS of its tax exempt status!" campaign might work, but the money came from individuals, which is you know, not at all illegal.
@Brian Andersen:
no such thing as a gay mormon silly kid
What about the misleading advertising making gays out as little more than parasites? They don't have to support our rights. They can fight us to keep us from having our rights and I'll still respect them. But if they lie and slander us, we should raise holy hell! I say let's have Stonewall II. What do we have to lose? Their actions are the cause of the kind hatred that leads to attacks. No more sissy bullshit. Yell, scream and protest!
Audiored is funny.
While I don't see gay marriage as a necessity, I support putting a weirdo nationalist cult in its place.
One bad aspect of this, though, is that Catholics and Baptists all over CA are probably wetting their panties at 2 of their greatest enemies expending each other.
I'm pissed as hell at the Mormons for funding Prop. 8, but people, CALIFORNIANS PULLED THE LEVER TO VOTE FOR IT. Why all the calls for boycotting Utah, and none for boycotting California?
OK, this whole thing really has been like being in a twilight zone. I have always seen marriage as a symbol of our existence. Our existence which would not be if it weren't for the union of one man and one woman. Changing that symbol to two yins or two yangs instead of keeping it yin and yang is just lopsided to me. It diminishes the respect that should be had for the creative power. Gay people should be allowed all the same rights as anyone else. Just because I see marriage as a yin/yang situation doesn't make me hateful or discriminatory. That is just how I have always viewed things. When gays say they are being treated like second class citizens because they aren't included in the legal definition of marriage, I have a hard time understanding it. I would agree that committed gay partners are being treated like 2nd class citizens if they can't see their partner in the hospital or if they can't have the same child custody rights and things like that. But if a civil union contained the same rights as a marriage, then shouldn't that be a good thing? Even if a husband and wife were unable to have children, shouldn't their union be still be called a marriage because of what it symbolizes? Marriage isn't just a symbol of love and commitment. It is a symbol of the creation of life, the creation of our own existence. Does that not deserve some honor and respect? Can't any gay people understand that a lot of us see marriage this way - as a symbol of creation, a symbol of our existence. This view of marriage doesn't need to undermine any gay cause or right.
I'm a Mormon. I'm straight and I agreed with the passing of Prop 8. (Go ahead and H8 me for it) I was shocked to see this article. It is extremely accurate and the author should be applauded in reporting correct facts. Although the author and I don't agree, at least he has the respect to clearly state the facts, and not propoganda like, "The mormons are a sick, vile cult. They can go and do their freaky, magical salamander, child raping in some desert in Utah but stay the hell out of the lives of everyone else." Which is ironically quite h8 filled, bigotted language. How about up until 1978 when it was still legal to kill a Mormon in Missouri? How about when our leader Joseph Smith died at the hands of a mob who killed him and his brother in cold blood, while under the protection of the government. What about when a few days ago another angry mob vandalized our most holy temples and churches. You want to talk about bigotry? When the Mormons moved to Utah, Utah was not part of America because the government kicked them out. All this for practicing their religion peacefully. Now you going to tell me about bogotry? You're going to ridicule my cherished religious beliefs because I don't agree with you on the definition of marriage? Go protest in Compton and East LA you whiny, pompous, demanding hypocrits. That's who took your so called "civil rights" away. Go accuse the blacks of taking your "civil rights" away and see how much respect your privledged white faces get.
I believe that it is a bit naive to believe that any religious organization that is rooted in Fundamentalism supports any GLBT right; it simply goes against everything that they believe in. At this moment in time they lie and say that they support domestic partnership, because if they didn't the public would view them as the freedom hating institutions that they are, whether they be Mormon, Evangelical, Catholic, etc. Tactically, for now they suggest that they don't have an issue with the rights of, say, hospital visitation, but their goal truly is to roll back any rights that the GLBT currently has in any state. They wish to gain a foothold, which they are doing very well now, and then slowly erode the protections, civil rights and liberties of anyone or anything that stands in the way of achieving their world view. It is just that simple, though I do agree that there was a significant push here in CA in the anticipation of a Romney run in 2012.
There is such a thing as a gay Mormon. I'm one. My Bishop and church membership knows that I'm gay, they know that I've been in a relationship with a man for 8 years (not much a kid anymore, sorry) and I am still a member of the Church. I haven't been Ex'd yet. My Bishop didn't feel it was right. So in all sense of the word, I'm a gay Mormon. (And so is my partner, FYI. He has yet to be Ex'd as well.)
@Darth Paul:
And there you have it, one of the reasons throwing blame around isn't helpful. God knows, I'm pissed at the amount of money the Mormons, Knights of Columbus, etc. spent to eliminate our basic civil rights in California, but the anger should be spent constructively - demonstrations FOR our rights not AGAINST a church, fighting the amendment in the courts, explaining the facts to ignorant straight people worried about what gay marriage would mean to them. But if you really want to lay blame, well, that should have been done better before the election, we might not be in this mess now if it had been. And what about the 30% of gays in CA who couldn't be bothered to vote? Their votes could have made a difference as well. There's a hell of a lot of blame to go around if you really want to waste time and energy on it. Anger is good, just channel it usefully.
Here are the facts. I'm the director of the recent documentary Banking on Heaven, about the Mormons & polygamy.
The Mormon Church is a CULT and their members think like CULTISTS. You might be surprised to know that most polygamists are more open-minded than Mormons, and more intelligent. Mormons will
wake up when they're leaders tell them to and not a day sooner. Like
polygamists, Mormons do exactly what they're told to do.
Go after their 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, like the gov't threatened to
do when Mormons refused to give blacks the priesthood. Hit Mormons in
their pocket books, they're very vain and very greedy. And very very
delusional. DON'T BLAME THE VICTIMS - GO AFTER THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE.
Mormons spend 20 million on Prop 8 and nothing to help women and children escaping polygamy - pretty dumb, right. That's because their leaders want to be in the SPOTLIGHT, they're very NARCISSISTIC. THEY WANT TO RECRUIT MORE MEMBERS TO PAY TITHING - they're going for the Palin crowd, the bigots, the haters. It's all about MONEY. Check out this clip: http://www.bankingonheaven.com/
Just because Japhy doesn't cry a lot and trys to be objective doesn't make him conservative. Jesus, get a grip guys.
Some corrections to editors statements:
a) ORGANIZED ACTION VERSUS SINGULAR
Mormons when people talk about them refers to the fact it is an organized religious group. Unlike say "the blacks" the Mormons has a different meaning. One relating to the fact the "blacks" are not an organized force. When the Mormon church gets behind someting their entire faith is because they pay money to continue the organization structure that permitted the financing of Yes on 8.
b) MORMON POWER
The Mormons are not now being prescuted by anyone, especially in western states like Utah and Arizona, where they tend to influence politics toward the far right.
c) DONATIONS
The letter they sent out has especially meaning since per their religion all members must give 10 percent of income- is this not true?
d) FREE SPEECH
These arguments are cute, but b.s. The constitution gives them the right to say what they want. The constitution does not require that we pay for their speech. Tax exemption gives them a subsidy from the government to bankroll gay marriage bans. You maybe okay with that. I am not.
e) Polygamy
Yes, they outlawed it, but still give a wink and nod to it. Indeed, they only in the late 1970s stopped perceiving of African Americans as cursed by God.
f) Your last comment is a strawman. You include it because its a distraction. Good luck with the new job.
@pixel105:
Pixel? Are you mentally ill? You state that "here are the facts" yet you give no facts at all…i.e.
The Mormon Church is a CULT and their members think like CULTISTS. (Your opinion)
most polygamists are more open-minded than Mormons, and more intelligent. (Your opinion)
Mormons will wake up when they're leaders tell them to and not a day sooner. (Once again your opinion)
Like polygamists, Mormons do exactly what they're told to do. (Mormons are taught to pray and ask God if what they are told is true and correct)
Go after their 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, like the gov't threatened to do when Mormons refused to give blacks the priesthood. (this is a totally outrageous claim and never happened. I'm curious where someone working on a documentary got this "fact")
Hit Mormons in their pocket books, they're very vain and very greedy. And very very
delusional. (And all homosexuals are pedophiles..right? No H8 filled speech here huh? Who's delusional?)
Mormons spend 20 million on Prop 8 and nothing to help women and children escaping polygamy. (Once again a very, very, outrageous claim. The members, not the Church, spent the money. I personally know a wealthy Mormon friend who feeds and houses hundreds of outcast polygamist "lostboys". The Churches welfare program is second-to-none and If there is any group helping to support these people it is the LDS Church)
Once again I applaud the author for his suprisingly accurate portrayal of Mormons. I am a lifelong Mormon who has worked in many capacities of the Church, so don't tell me what I believe. Your comments clearly show who is less intelligent here. I look forward to your "documentary". Is it a comedy?
The only lesson I see from all this so far from so-called leaders in the gay community is that it is not acceptible to call a spade a spade anymore.
The Mormon church is a cult (I've never seen a religion that isn't a cult, so they're all equal in that regard). They're free to believe whatever they want, but the religion is so obviously false that I find it impossible to believe that any adult not brainwashed from birth into believing such twaddle can take it seriously. It's one big conjob from start to finish. True though that may be, it's entirely beside the point of the issue, which isn't one of religious freedom or if the claims of any given faith hold up to scrutiny.
The Mormons and Catholics (as well as other religious groups) are very much responsible for the funding of Prop 8 and should accept the blame for thir bigotry.
As Kathy Griffin said of Jesus, the Mormons can suck it. The only thing the churches have accomplished here is to ignite the anger that will mobilze the complacent into action to fight for our righs.
You're entitled to your religion. I want no part of it. And by no part I mean that you cannot use the force of law just because your imaginary friend doesn't like my relationships.
@Roymondo: Yes because we are going to trust a member of an organization that tried to extort money from no on 8 backers.
Wow. This story seem to completely miss the point on so many levels. It's as if the writer never researched a news story, before or now.
I don't believe making the list of everyone who contributed to Yes on 8 is in any way "creepy." I fully expect any petition I put my name to to be public knowledge. It's keeping any list like that secret that creeps me out. If an individual doesn't want their name linked to a donation to a cause like Yes on Prop 8, they shouldn't donate in the first place.
And religious groups always skate a fine line when commenting on any political issues. It's fine to have an open discussion about a topic with your congregation, but to organize a movement in favor of (or against) any ballot measure from the pulpit, and use church monies to do so, is stepping FAR over the line that separates church and state. If their involvement in this is as deep as everyone believes, they should have their tax exempt status revoked immediately.
This is where identity politics gets the gay community. For years, conservatives have accused gays of hatching plots and executing secret agendas with our money and influence. But as soon as something doesn't go our way, we scapegoat in return, lump them all together and attempt to chase them out of town.
The significance of the Obama campaign was that he resisted easy scapegoating, looked inward and found shared desires among disparate groups. Congrats to Japhy for trying to do the same and resisting the easy targeting of blacks and Mormons.
The rest of you sound like Nazis.
this whole 'article' reminds me of a night i met several Log Cabin members at my local gay bar—gays that give money to the Republican Party—people who would rather spit on us than give us a place at the table. the Republicans don't even accept their donations, yet they still lobby for them. it's just sick. gay's self hatred has to stop, and from the tone of this blog, it's alive and rampant here. first time i've read this blog, and it will be the last. i'll stand up for YOUR rights even if you won't do the same for me. i'm 51 years old, and trust me, you don't want life to go back to what it was like in the 70s or 80s, MY coming of age period. we need to FIGHT until we have every single right the straight community enjoys. and fuck the Mormons. i'll be protesting Wednesday night in NYC. see ALL new yorkers there please.
Yeah, we're Nazis. It's sooooo wrong of us to place blame at the communities that stripped us of our rights and the churches that enabled it. Bad gays! Bad gays! Go back to your closets and shut up! As if, Mike.
I have to say, we are not casting ourselves in the best light when we cry out against prejudice + discrimination, then follow that by prejudice + generalizing an entire group of people.
As Japhy said, there were some Mormons who were protesting on our behalf + trying to get their church to stop promoting Yes On 8. It isn't fair to attack all Mormons based on the actions of some. Get specific. And make only those particular parties responsible for this Prop 8 passing accountable.
I, for one, don't have a problem with respecting + allowing persons their own religious freedom. As I've said, though, I do have a big problem with their religious beliefs being used to justify removing my rights. At any rate, making the Mormons the target of our ire + vitriol isn't going to further our causes + will only paint we LGBT people as the religion-hating, Godless folk that we are often stereotyped as.
In order to bring about the change (buzz word!) that we need, we're going to have to have support from a diverse group of allies. Wherever we can get it from.
@Roymondo:
Roymondo, are YOU mentally ill? Maybe not, but YOU ARE A LIAR.
The only man helping the Lost Boys on the level you speak is Dan Fischer of Diversity Foundation, and Dan is NOT A MORMON.
The Mormon church does NOTHING to help women and children fleeing polygamous sects in UTAH. I personally went to the polygamy summit in St. George and asked every non-profit on the panel if they received ANY DONATIONS from Mormons and they all said NO. I asked the non-profit panel if any Mormon communities were involved in helping polygamists in any way, and they ALL said NO. The only exception I'm aware of are a few Mormon families who housed a few boys when the Lost Boys scandal hit prime-time news, but it was only a lame effort at best to save face.
If the Mormon Church gave half the money they spent on Prop 8 to The HOPE Organization in St. George, Elaine Tyler would have the resources she DESPERATELY needs to help women and children fleeing polygamy, especially victims of Warren Jeffs' FLDS pedophiles in the twin cities of Colorado City and Hidale, Utah.
I've seen the film BANKING ON HEAVEN and Utah's Attorney General Mark Shurtleff says in the film, "For 50 years Utah and Arizona did NOTHING" and AG Mark Shurtleff is a Mormon. HELLO.
Gays should unite with BANKING ON HEAVEN filmmakers and expose the Mormons who SPREAD AMERICA'S WEALTH to corrupt polygamist who practice tyranny over women and children. The FLDS alone receives 25-30 million a year in taxpayer handouts, and the FLDS only represent 10-20% of Mormon polygamists.
And yes, the Mormons do have their own internal welfare system, it's called DESERET INDUSTRIES, but you only qualify if you're a Mormon in good standing. Deseret Industries DOES NOT offer food and assistance to escaping polygamists, and that's a fact jack.
For those who want to view the 5-min trailer of BANKING ON HEAVEN, it will blow your mind!!!
http://www.bankingonheaven.com/
It's very possible that the elderly leadership of the LDS Church have long memories. After all, they were around during the days when radical gays were virulently opposed to that patriarchal, oppressive hetero institution of marriage — and sorta stated that they wanted to see marriage destroyed.
The younger generation isn't aware of that, but those old geezers are. And folks wonder why they think marriage is in danger…?
Gotta say you guys have some interesting tactics. All these years the Mormon Church has been reviled — or at best on the fringe of acceptability — and in a couple of days you make them heroes.
Furthermore, folks that once saw gays as nice benevolent people are now having second thoughts. If they didn't buy the threat to religious liberty argument the first time, they are surely considering it now.
That media shot of an elderly woman being surrounded and shouted at definitely was not cool. It has probably done as much damage as the SF mayor saying, "Like it or not…"
Thanks, Alexa. That's probably the most intelligent, rational, and applaudable comment on this article.
Hey! you got them talking Japhy!! Well done. Usually i just see this many posts about Morning Goods.
The dumb take LDS tax exempt notion or another dumb idea of banning Mormon marrage initiatives won't work and make LGBTs look ineffective. Boycotting Utah products and tourism in it's ENTIRETY is a simple backlash that WORKS.
Gays and Lesbians let Utah residents show their disapproval of the LDS elders meddling in another States marriage laws, and costing them possibly 6 billion dollars in tourism. We hurt Colorado tourism at a loss of revenue over 40 Million.
Put our pressure on Sundance Film Festival attendees, and sponsors to move the festival out of Utah this year. Make ski resorts like Park City and Alta un-chic, and have skiers go to Colorado this year.
Hit LDS in Utah which will always be the heart of their church, and where Mormon political strength is the least dilluted by non Mormon voters. If we hurt LDS in UT, they STAY HURT.
Since LDS members can effortlessly cough up 22 Million to sh*t on the things most sacred to CA gays/lesbians…OUR FAMILIES.
Then they can cough up 400 Million so none of the residents in UT feel the loss of tourism.
BOB:
The Mormon Church did not fund the ballot initiative. You see, the LDS church only encouraged members to become involved in the matter. It was individual members who contributed to Prop 8, just as individual members contributed to the opposition.
Despite all that Mormon money, the opposition to Prop 8 was better funded, pretty much canceling it out. And it's not like the electorate had guns to their heads in the voting booth. Thirty other states have voted the same way without the Mormons involved period. That's where people are "at" on this issue.
Except for large urban areas, California is much more socially conservative than many people like to recognize. And as was mentioned, it was not important enough for a significant percentage of gays to even show up — although maybe they "did" show up to vote and just did not vote as you thought they "should." Not all gays are for gay marriage, after all….
You can't escape from the fact that even Obama supporters voted for Prop 8, which makes me wonder why you are not out protesting him? Obama has stated he is against gay marriage after all. In fact, his position is not all that different from the LDS Churches: civil unions. The same position, but without the change to the constitution, which means what exactly…?
Pretty wishy washy, that guy….
If you're going to be attempting to use the LDS Church's style guide for the correct name of the church, then refer to it as: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you were close but not right.
But since it really pisses them off to be called the Mormon church, I think everyone should continue to call them that.
Also, they stopped practicing polygamy in 1890, not 1860.
You need a copy editor.
@Carol: "Pretty wishy washy that guy"
hah
Yes, blame the guy who said he'd "vote no on the proposition" as opposed to the church that encouraged its members to not only vote Yes on Prop 8, but donate their time + efforts to getting others to do the same.
While I don't think all Mormons are at fault (since some were against Prop 8), it is silly to suggest that the LDS church is not at fault because they didn't directly donate the money but got their members to do the dirty deed instead.
Mark,
Utah was a barren desert when it was settled by Mormon settlers who had been driven from their homes again and again. Mormons have a long history of enduring persecution and would do so again. They might even get a kick out of it. The only people you will drive out of Utah by an economic down-turn (if your boycott were to amount to much) are the whinier of Utah's growing population of non-Mormons, returning it to a much more homogeneous religious block.
I would also guess that Prop 8 sympathizers from other states might pick up the slack caused by any formal boycotts. No offense, but as you saw, there are more of them than there are of you.
I understand your frustration, but I think that you're shooting yourself in the foot. Deep breaths and all that….
Yes, blame the guy who said he'd "vote no on the proposition" as opposed to the church that encouraged its members to not only vote Yes on Prop 8, but donate their time + efforts to getting others to do the same.
Uh, Fredo777, both Obama and the LDS believe marriage should only be between a man and a woman.
Why should Obama supporters vote no on Prop 8, when the man they worship and voted for believes that marriage should not include LGBTQ's?
I understand your frustration, but I think that you're shooting yourself in the foot. Deep breaths and all that….
You're right, Carol. We should all just sit back and wait for the gov't to fix everything. Just like they fixed the gays in the military issue; and DOMA; and EDNA; and the Mathew Shepherd hate crimes bill and all the other things that all those liberal and tolerant straights said they would fix.
Fredo777:
I am merely correcting the repeated assertion that the LDS Church funded Prop 8.
I think you are picking and choosing what you wish to believe regarding Obama. It should be evident that he is not a reliable ally, but a prize fence-sitter. I am pretty sure you must have heard his statements on gay marriage.
Carol is right because most Mormons do exactly what their leaders tell them to do, just like the polygamists.
@Carol:
Really?
What would you do if you were running as pres? Longterm thinking or the short term??
But ah, this aint about Obamz as he's running to rule the most powerful and conservatively complicated country in the world (that should be a continent!)…
It's about a church called the Mormons who grew out of Utah…
@Paul Raposo: Because Obama's own personal beliefs don't dictate that we should remove certain constitutional rights from a group of people, as he also stated.
As for that "worship" line, I'm going to just overlook that.
in other news the jews are really mad at the mormons because they are still baptising holocaust victims even though they mormons said they would stop it. and, they are evidently marrying dead people. this church is a cult just like all the others and it needs its tax exempt status revoked.
I am a Mormon. Here are a few verifiable facts you should all consider:
1. The Church did not donate a dime…individual Mormons did, along with millions of others…republicans, democrats, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, etc…
2. All Churches and people have a right to say and believe whatever they want. To suggest that somehow the Church was out of line for speaking out on this issue seeks to deny freedoms of religious expression. It is tyrannical to try and silence someone just because you happen to disagree with them.
3. I or my Church do not hate gays. We don't hate anyone. Just the opposite. Your campaign has sought to paint this issue as completely antagonistic towards gays, when all we are trying to do is uphold an ideal and value we hold very dear - Marraige and Family, which you seek to completely revolutionalize, change its very definition, in fact. I reserve the right to respectfully disagree with you, but still love and appreciate you as a human being, fellow citizen, or brother/sister. I would only expect similar treatment in return.
4. There are Mormons who voted no on Prop 8, decidely a minority I'm sure, but nonetheless. To persecute all Mormons generally would equate to prejudice and bigotry.
Bottom line: We disagree, but should still respect eachother.
I am a Mormon. Here are a few verifiable facts you should all consider:
1. The Church did not donate a dime…individual Mormons did, along with millions of others…republicans, democrats, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, etc…
2. All Churches and people have a right to say and believe whatever they want. To suggest that somehow the Church was out of line for speaking out on this issue seeks to deny freedoms of religious expression. It is tyrannical to try and silence someone just because you happen to disagree with them.
3. I or my Church do not hate gays. We don't hate anyone. Just the opposite. Your campaign has sought to paint this issue as completely antagonistic towards gays, when all we are trying to do is uphold an ideal and value we hold very dear - Marraige and Family, which you seek to completely revolutionalize, change its very definition, in fact. I reserve the right to respectfully disagree with you, but still love and appreciate you as a human being, fellow citizen, or brother/sister. I would only expect similar treatment in return.
4. There are Mormons who voted no on Prop 8, decidely a minority I'm sure, but nonetheless. To persecute all Mormons generally would equate to prejudice and bigotry.
Bottom line: We disagree, but should still respect eachother.
Paul Raposo,
Well, I am not a believer that the government fixes anything and would prefer it were out of most things. I just think these violent protests are not the way to win friends and influence people, especially when you seem to need public opinion on your side. This sort of thing just makes people dig in their heels.
I think the problem, essentially, is that a conflicting right was exposed when a few gays decided to sue churches and thereby exposed a tangible threat to religious liberty. The only reason that there is a conflict is that marriage is not the proper role of government period. Marriage is a covenant between God and man, a religious issue, which is why churches protect it so vigorously. Civil unions are the role of government, which we sorta enter into when we get a marriage license.
Wow, already censoring those who disagree with you. Now there is a writer that is sure of his extremist views.
Censor all you want. Mormons still suck.
The paid for and bought bigotry and now you, Japhy Gant are trying to throw it back in our face. Pathetic.
I am active LDS and was at Church yesterday. There really wasn't much conversation at all about the events at the Temple and about the passing of 8 in general. My point being that the big Mormon caravan keeps on rolling full steam ahead. We've had a few nips on our heels (i.e. vandalized Churches and demeaning language) but that's what makes us stronger. Mormons are taught that there is opposition in all things. We literally believe and are taught that there is a God and that there is also a Satan. We are also taught that the Family is a divine institution designed by God to "multiply and replenish the Earth" so that "we might find joy in our posterity". The traditional Family is the bedrock of our lives as Mormons and we view redefining marriage as the very real forces of evil in contention with the very real forces of good. We absolutly love and respect Gay people and support any type of union they want other than traditional marriage. Why? Because it isn't traditional marriage. No where in history has gay marriage been the accepted norm. Homosexuality has been around from the beginning of time, but so have God fearing people who disagree with it. Both sides have a "civil right" to vote on the issue in our Country. The abusive language and vandalism to our Churches (4 in Utah last night) is threatening our civil rights to vote. It's intimidation and it's wrong. We respect your right to vote also and when the issue was placed on the ballot the voice of California (not 4 activist judges) said NO to Gay marriage. That's the breaks. I didn't necessarily want Obama. Do I riot? Do I accuse blacks of blindly voting for him because of his race? No, because those are the breaks. That's how America works, get used to it. Once again, I want to applaud the author for reporting accurately on this article. It's refreshing to know that although we disagree at least he took the time to research the facts and give an honest report. Following his example is how Gay people win friends and influence people.
Mormons Prefer to be called LDS even though they cafeteria pick what they do and don’t believe about Jesus they are not Christians. They do not have churches they have temples that are CLOSED to anyone that is not Mormon.
@Roymondo:
No, we won't get used to it. The majority should not have had the opportunity to deny rights of the minority, which is why the judges granted gay marriage rights in the first place.
Call them activist judges all you wish, but their decision was absolutely just. It was the decision to not allow the majority to impose their religious views on the minority, denying them equal marriage rights. Bottom-line: civil unions do not afford same-sex couples all of the same rights that marriages do. Period. Hence, the judges stepping in + granting gay Californians those same rights + opportunities that they should be afforded + (let's face it, considering the relatively close loss we just experienced) will again be afforded in the future.
By the way, the Prop can't remove the rights already granted + there are still thousands of gay couples that will continue to be married in Cali. So, get used to that.
There really wasn't much conversation at all about the events at the Temple and about the passing of 8 in general.
I guess you didn't get the press releases that the LDS released? Just because they aren't talking about it in the pulpit, doesn't mean they aren't talking about it.
My point being that the big Mormon caravan keeps on rolling full steam ahead. We've had a few nips on our heels (i.e. vandalized Churches and demeaning language) but that's what makes us stronger.
And when our boycott of Mormon owned businesses and of Utah itself, let's see how far that big caravan gets.
We literally believe and are taught that there is a God and that there is also a Satan.
Good, considering Mormon's acted quite un-Godly in supporting prop 8 and demonstrated they're inherent evil in removing equal rights.
We are also taught that the Family is a divine institution designed by God to "multiply and replenish the Earth" so that "we might find joy in our posterity".
Mormons aren't the only people with families. The only difference is, no one spent 20 million to eliminate the existence of your families.
…we view redefining marriage as the very real forces of evil in contention with the very real forces of good.
Do you really see yourself as goodly, Roymondo? Evil is making the lives of newly married people illegal. And you will pay when you meet your maker.
We absolutly love and respect Gay people and support any type of union they want other than traditional marriage.
Lies. You support telling other law abiding, tax paying citizens what they may, or may not do.
Why? Because it isn't traditional marriage.
The world hasn't had traditional marriage in centuries. When women are no longer bought and paid for with sheep, or goats; when wives aren't used as chattel in loans and business dealings; when daughters aren't promised to wealthy men in exchange for land, or titles, traditional marriage has not taken place.
No where in history has gay marriage been the accepted norm.
It was by Christ.
Homosexuality has been around from the beginning of time, but so have God fearing people who disagree with it.
If you fear God, why are you attacking gays?
Both sides have a "civil right" to vote on the issue in our Country.
But only one side had millions to throw at the cause and the power of the pulpit to instill fear.
The abusive language
Don't preach about abusive language considering what was said in the pro Prop 8 advertising about gays.
and vandalism to our Churches (4 in Utah last night)
Considering Mormons blew each other up in the early eighties, I have no doubt the vandalism was committed by the LDS themselves.
It's intimidation and it's wrong.
The LDS wrote the book on intimidation.
We respect your right to vote also and when the issue was placed on the ballot the voice of California (not 4 activist judges) said NO to Gay marriage.
The said YES to hate.
I didn't necessarily want Obama. Do I riot?
Nope, you just called for his death and accused him of being a terrorist while Palin and McCain watched on.
Following his example is how Gay people win friends and influence people.
In other words, we need to get down and beg and grovel before you?
Carol I don't need a Mormon HISTORY lesson, the entire maternal half of my family are Mormons in Salt Lake City and Vegas. My great grandfather at 5 yo WALKED from NYC with his adopted Morman family to UT (his mother and infant step sister rode in a small cart)in the third wave of Mormons. My great grandmother and her family were in UT even earlier. My grandparents are married in the temple, my mother was baptised hundreds of times in proxy for children who didn't live to be 8 yo. I was blessed Mormon and at 4 yo my mother converted to my father's faith.
I knew my great grandparents they lived into their mid 90s. So save your history for someone ELSE.
btw the hundreds of cousins and one surviving aunt love and respect me as openly gay. The ELDERS of the LDS church are the ones who cause this HATE spewing, and it's not their first HATEFEST, they did the same to women fighting for ERA and Blacks they called the Mark of CAIN, (decendents of the first murderer), and banned them from the preisthood until the 70s after two major lawsuits from the NAACP.
Because Obama's own personal beliefs don't dictate that we should remove certain constitutional rights from a group of people, as he also stated.
Lovely. He also stated that he does not believe gays should be permitted to marry. Voters merely followed his lead. He gave them permission o vote for hate.
As for that "worship" line, I'm going to just overlook that.
Worship of Obama parrots much of the worship we see from religionists. My statement stands.
1. The Church did not donate a dime…individual Mormons did, along with millions of others…republicans, democrats, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, etc…
Bankers didn't steal a dime, they just convinced Americans to borrow more than they could afford. But banks are still being paid billions in tax payer monies for bail outs.
2. All Churches and people have a right to say and believe whatever they want. To suggest that somehow the Church was out of line for speaking out on this issue seeks to deny freedoms of religious expression. It is tyrannical to try and silence someone just because you happen to disagree with them.
America has a separation of church and state. The gov't will stay out of your business, if you stay out of theirs. The LDS didn't honor this deal and therefore, it must end.
It is our freedom of speech to speak out against the LDS, Mike and we will.
3. I or my Church do not hate gays. We don't hate anyone. Just the opposite.
You don't work to overturn the equality of other people when you like them, Mike.
Your campaign has sought to paint this issue as completely antagonistic towards gays,
And your campaign painted us as perverts and monsters. Don't pretend to be innocent, when your side lowered the bar with your advertising campaign.
when all we are trying to do is uphold an ideal and value we hold very dear - Marraige and Family, which you seek to completely revolutionalize, change its very definition, in fact.
And you seek to destroy our families. You want to uphold straight families and tear apart gay families.
Mormons did not invent marriage, and you have no right to decide who may, or may not participate.
I reserve the right to respectfully disagree with you, but still love and appreciate you as a human being, fellow citizen, or brother/sister.
Again, you don't work to over turn the equality of other people when you like them, Mike.
4. There are Mormons who voted no on Prop 8, decidely a minority I'm sure, but nonetheless. To persecute all Mormons generally would equate to prejudice and bigotry.
Just as you persecuted all gays as perverts and monsters who would force children to watch gay marriage ceremonies, Mike.
Bottom line: We disagree, but should still respect eachother.
Too little, too late, Mike. When we bankrupt the LDS, you will see what real hard times look like. Your side started this, not our side.
I'm sorry Paul, but do we know eachother? You make some pretty bold assumptions about me personally…
@Paul Raposo:
Posted: Nov 10, 2008 at 7:09 pm
I AGREE with THAT post.
Brilliant!
@Paul Raposo:
That, I don't AGREE at all.
Like I keep on saying, think longterm….longterm…
I just think these violent protests
What violence? All these protests have been peaceful.
are not the way to win friends and influence people, especially when you seem to need public opinion on your side.
We've been nice and polite since 1992 and all it got us was DADTDP; DOMA; a failed EDNA; no hate crimes legislation.
This sort of thing just makes people dig in their heels.
Then we'll dig in our heels and fight and spend and protest until someone fianlly breaks. Its time for liberals and progressives to stop acting like cowards and state now who they support–equality for all Americans, or second class status for a certain segment.
I think the problem, essentially, is that a conflicting right was exposed when a few gays decided to sue churches and thereby exposed a tangible threat to religious liberty.
Who sued churches? I appreciate your imagined victim mentality, Carol, but we live in the real world.
Religious liberty? Your religion is protected by the Constitution. No one can change that. What we wanted was a place at the table and the all powerful church decided nay, we shall not have any. If you believe for one minute the church in America is weak, just witness what happened with Prop 8. If gays had as much power as anti-gay hets claim we have, we would not have DOMA.
The only reason that there is a conflict is that marriage is not the proper role of government period.
Odd, since it was churches who forced the gov't to get into the marriage business in the first place.
Marriage is a covenant between God and man, a religious issue, which is why churches protect it so vigorously.
Bullshit. Marriage is between two consenting adults. God, the church, has no bearing on it, unless those two people want it to. The church however has decided that it should stick its nose in everyone's business–secular and otherwise. The church does not own the word marriage, nor the marriage rights spoken during a ceremony. Marriage is public domain.
Civil unions are the role of government, which we sorta enter into when we get a marriage license.,
This is nothing more than your opinion.
I'm sorry Paul, but do we know eachother? You make some pretty bold assumptions about me personally…
Your writings speak volumes about you, Mike. To read you, is to know you.
That, I don't AGREE at all. Like I keep on saying, think longterm….longterm…
I'm sorry, John, but Americans waited eight years with Clinton and what did that get you? Will Obama be any different? I really do doubt it.
I'm making a prediction here and now: In four years America will still have DOMA, DADTDP; no EDNA and no Matt Sheaperd bill. Everyone else will be better off, except LGBTQ's–we will be in the same exact spot we are at today.
Mark,
I am glad that you don't need the history lesson, but there are many readers on this forum who could likely benefit. All I was saying is that Mormons know how to endure persecution so that all this rancor might not have the desired effect.
Y'know, I think our culture is becoming emotionally illiterate. English has the vastest vocabulary of any language on earth, yet many people can only come up with the word "hate" to describe the motivations of a person that might disagree with them. It's the oddest thing.
As for me, well, I have kids who sometimes do things they shouldn't, like run out into traffic. I correct them as required, but in their immaturity they sometimes accuse me of hating them. We can all give kids a pass for not being able to express the nuances of their emotions, but I think adults can do better.
If the LDS Church really HATED you, they might be rounding you up in concentration camps and exterminating you. Or putting you in prison for those old sodomy laws. I just can't see that a church's position that advocates continued rights to civil unions, equality in the workforce, probate rights, etc and treatment with respect is motivated by rabid, foaming hatred. Find another word perhaps…. I dunno. Like…. "disagree."
I think a good case for this is your own family. You mentioned that you have all these Mormon cousins and aunts who love you as openly gay. Well, see! You don't have to agree with one aspect of a lifestyle to still love someone! So, do you really want to disrespect and financially punish these people who have loved and supported you all these years…?
@X-POLYGAMIST WIFE:
What a bunch of garbage. X-polygamist wife, are you calling me a liar? Like I said before, I personally know a Mormon friend who feeds, houses, and employs many, many Lostboys. His initials are J.J. and he lives in St. George. That's all I'll say. I grew up in St. George and I'm very privy to the situation with the polygamists in Colorado City and Centennial Park. First of all; is it the responsibility of the LDS Church to rescue the kids from the FLDS? That sounds more like something the States of Utah and Arizona should be doing (and I think their approach is a lot better than the circus they stirred up in El Dorado). I think you are confusing the State of Utah government with the Worldwide LDS Church. The missions and purposes of the LDS Church are to #1 Proclaim the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (Missionary Program), #2 Perfect the Saints (Church services, welfare, etc.) and #3 Redeem the dead (Temple work, geneology). That is the full scope of the Church's purpose. There is nothing specifically in there about rescuing polygamist Lostboys, but I can guarantee you that of Church (members included) who are looking out for the welfare of the Lostboys it is the LDS. Although the polygamist issue is your hot button, the overall LDS Church doesn't have the resources to help EVERYONE. We try, but there is only so much we can do. To put the Warren Jeffs polygamist problems as a responsibilty of the LDS Church is completely unfair. It's like putting the Tibetan Monks problems with China on the Jews to resolve. It's obvious you don't understand the purposes and scope of the Church's welfare sytem. The DI is just one facet. Leaders of many Nations have toured the LDS facilities and modelled their own welfare programs after hours. It's awonderful program that helps all people. The LDS were some of the very first responders to Hurricane Katrina for example. To criticize the Churches Welfare program is like criticizing Christ for only feeding the 5000 rather than 9000. I just volunteered at the DI and I can assure you that you don't need to be LDS to benefit from the DI's programs. Who are you honestly to complain about the wonderful work the LDS Church does throughout the world because they don't address your polygamist "pet project" the way you want them to. What has your wonderful Gay movement in all of it's marriage rights protests done to allow polygamists to marry multiple underage women? It's about love right? How is their love any different than the love of 2 gay men?
Paul,
I think you are looking to the wrong party for support. Liberals are only randomly committed to civil rights, as are Republicans.
The Democrats' commitment to free speech is arbitrary. They support it only when it works in their favor. When it doesn't, they want to restrict it. Their lack of support for the 2nd amendment is frightful. And as you can see, Obama want it both ways….
If you are looking for commitment to civil liberties, all civil liberties for all people without exception, you need to be looking at the Libertarian party. That is where gays need to be sending their support.
Mormons are going to learn their power exists ONLY in Utah, and when they try their strong arm tactics in States they don't hold a majority, their grasp for power will leave them two bloody stumps where their hands were,
All I was saying is that Mormons know how to endure persecution so that all this rancor might not have the desired effect.
You'd be mistaken, Carol. Since the LDS and the Utah tourism board have already sent out press releases trying to quell the damage they've done, we are having the desired effect.
Mormons aren't the only ones who have endured persecution. Homosexuals have put up with it since the dawn of humankind and yet, here we still live.
Homosexuals have been around since before the Mormons and we will be here long after you are forgotten.
Y'know, I think our culture is becoming emotionally illiterate.
You mean emotionally bankrupt. That a church–supposedly the paragon of love and compassion–can campaign so hard to destroy families paints a bleak picture of religion.
English has the vastest vocabulary of any language on earth, yet many pe