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SHOCK: Capt. Owen Honors PERMANENTLY Ousted From USS Enterprise

Navy officials today are removing Capt. Owen Honors from the USS Enterprise, which is set to sail in just two weeks to assist in Afghanistan; a new commander will be named. The Navy announced this week Honors would be temporarily relieved of duty while he was investigated. And you can be sure: The decision was made with the consultation (or rather, insistence) of top Pentagon brass who are furious with Honors’ homophobic videos that were produced and distributed four years ago. Honors is not expected to be kicked out of the Navy, but this effectively ends his career trajectory. It’s unclear whether other top Navy officials will also face punishment for knowing about or aiding in the production and distribution of Honors’ videos, but there are at least a half dozen other high-ranking sailors being looked at.

Aww, and just when Honors’ sympathizers were starting to come forward. Like former Petty Officer Phillip Ciesla, who was a crew member on the Enterprise when Honors’ videos were released: “They were meant for our entertainment – you know, lighthearted laughter None of it was ever meant, you know, to be taken seriously. When you’re out to sea for months on end, you’re halfway around the world, and you’re working arduous hours – 15 to 18 hours a day, temperatures of 120 degrees or more in the Persian Gulf – morale starts to get a little low. And you just want a sense of normalcy, you know, something to boost your morale, just a little something to get you through your day, just a little laughter.”

Fag.

But is Honors’ removal from his post an overreaction? The Navy says he was canned for showing a “profound lack of good judgment and professionalism.”

You can be sure conservative religious groups are making the argument via press release right this second that Honors should still have a job, and will use this as an opportunity to show how the military has been “hijacked by a special interest group” and how anti-gay religious beliefs will undoubtedly be infringed upon. But there’s also a very strong case to be made that any commander who uses derogatory language and slurs aimed at a specific demographic is simply not qualified to lead. Honors did not say “nigger” or “spic,” but if he had, should our feelings be any different? No. And neither should the Navy’s reaction.

Honors has not been fired. And when it comes time for him to retire, he will have a nice pension set up. He will not starve.

But if anything, the swift removal of a man who does not know referring to people as “fags” (especially while acting in his official capacity as a high-ranking Navy officer) sends the message this type of behavior will not be tolerated, from top to bottom.

Meanwhile, the Virginia-Pilot has released two more of Honors’ cache of videos.

This one features Honors joking about asking “the checkmates about being gay,” but how “that’s not a very good idea.” Oh, and two ladies showering together! And then two dudes showering together.

 

And this one has a nod to bestiality and poop!

By:           Max Simon
On:           Jan 4, 2011
Tagged: , , , ,
  • 78 Comments
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      I hated that the videos were made, and made on our dime.. but is this overkill? It was 4 or 5 years ago, and it’s over.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Simon
      Simon

      You overreacted. Maybe I have wicked sense of humor, but it was funny. Anyway it’s shooting with cannon to fly. Stupid jokes and unsymmetrical reaction.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      I understand that the videos were meant to be lighthearted. I’m just saying, change “faggot” in all the videos to the N word, or any derogatory word for Hispanics, Asians, Women, etc… and if the videos would have still been seen as lighthearted fun, then no problem. However, if you watch them and try it, it isn’t the case. It’s just that people are still so used to having gays be the but of jokes.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Steve
      Steve

      Was there an order or policy, in effect at the time the videos were made, which was violated by making those videos? If so, then he violated that order or policy. If not, then he may have demonstrated poor judgment, but nothing else.

      Poor judgment, several years ago, would seem to be thin cause to remove an officer from command. But it’s a judgment call for the next level up. I’m glad I didn’t have to make that decision.

      In any case, the CO should not have any distractions while the ship is at sea. The distraction that would be presented by the political heat on a current hot issue, might be the real reason for the change of command.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 1:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteveC
      SteveC

      Good news.

      Nobody should be allowed to make jokes about niggers, kikes or spics.

      (What did you say? The joke is about fags? Oh well, that’s OK then. No harm done!)

      Jan 4, 2011 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul in Canada
      Paul in Canada

      Goodbye, asshat!

      Jan 4, 2011 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dvlaries
      dvlaries

      If he’s been in the service long enough, he knows he’s being punished for getting caught not for what’s on those tapes.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with a lot of it. The videos are very offensive. But, strategically, I don’t want gay inclusion to become this monster trigger for homophobes to complain about.. (for example, look at ADA rules and their draconian enforcement, and how people have reacted to that). I just think these were made a long time ago, and should be cautionary tale more than whipping point. he was a popular commander who stopped doing something stupid. It would have been awesome to get him to lead the charge to make people change their ways. Now, forever, his fans will roll their eyes and have an excuse to be critical of the effort for inclusion.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • christopher di spirito
      christopher di spirito

      Capt. Owen Honors dishonored the Navy.

      Reports say female and male sailors serving on the USS Enterprise complained about the video and their complaints fell on deaf ears.

      If Capt. Freak has so much free time on his hands that he can make moronic videos, then he’s not doing his job. Running an aircraft carrier with a crew of 6,000 is a 24/7 job.

      Enjoy retirement, asshole.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • randy
      randy

      IT could be that the Navy wants to make an example of him that making fun of fellow sailors is not how the Navy should operate. There is a code of honor and respect that each serviceman and woman is expected to follow. You don’t have to like everyone in the army or navy, but you have to respect him and her.

      Failing to do that is exactly what will cause disintegration of unit cohesion.

      Therefore, although I agree that the punishment is overkill in this instance, it serves a larger goal of sending a message that all must respect all. That’s powerful and one that I certainly support.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @Fitz: So in other words, because bigoted people will be bigoted because the right thing is being done, it shouldn’t be done? I understand what you’re saying, but in the long run it doesn’t do anything for the cause to keep him around simply to ease the whole “gay thing” on people. All it does is say this behaviour is sort of acceptable as long as it’s about gay people and not other minorities. *That* is more dangerous, in my opinion, and will have longer lasting effects.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Spike
      Spike

      And if such a video surfaced in a private sector company, 2-3 years after it had been shown to employees, this would be a HUGE lawsuit. The only over-reaction should be that it took the Navy this long to address his idiot homophobe for what he is rather then promote him. The only reason anything has been done was because the video was leaked to the media.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 3:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adam
      Adam

      “Let’s make sure that history never forgets the name Enterprise.”
      Jean Luc Picard, ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ (Star Trek: The Next Generation).

      I’m guessing that’s not what he had in mind.

      Seriously, I don’t get how low morale gets–there are plenty of ways to be funny that aren’t this offensive. I don’t know if I agree with removing him from command, but perhaps using his influence as an (apparently) influential leader to let people know, “Hey, this is wrong” and promote and atmosphere of respect.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 3:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Seriously?
      Seriously?

      Folks, a bit of information for you: the “fag” jokes were not making fun of gays, they were making fun of Naval Aviators, who tend to be narcissistic jerks. The XO was indeed making fun of HIMSELF. However, in our media-governed age, the ignorant are also the most self righteous, and in this case they claimed the career of a well-liked and highly accomplished sailor and commander, and in doing so screwed over his 5,000+ crewmen. Jerks.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DR
      DR

      These videos are old. He was given an order to stop and did so; clearly the complaints didn’t fall on deaf ears. Now several years later it appears someone with an axe to grind leaks these things to the public two weeks before the ship is set to deploy.

      This is old news which was dealt with. Definitely overreacting, and a tad suspicious, IMO.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DavyJones
      DavyJones

      @Seriously?: IMO: It’s not that he used the word “fag”, or any other derogatory comments; it’s the entire premise of the videos. The XO of a carrier shouldn’t put himself in the position of making fun of his crew; He isn’t their friend from high school. He’s their XO That he doesn’t recognize and appreciate that distinction makes me wonder how he ever got through any service academy…

      Jan 4, 2011 at 4:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Idi Amin Dada
      Idi Amin Dada

      Would the reaction have been any different if he had made references to “niggers” or “spics” or “kikes”? I don’t think so. If anything, they would have ousted him sooner. It’s about time gays get respect equal to other minorities.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Danny
      Danny

      That doesn’t fly – the whole “otherwise he’s a nice guy” line of reasoning. That’s like saying the Nazis were really sweet folks, aside from how they treated non-Nazis. An ass is an ass. It’s like saying, oh that KKK guy is a standup fellow when he’s not under his hood, or saying that Muslim Imam is a wonderful dude when he’s not out terrorizing minority Christians.

      The guy is an ass.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hephaestion
      hephaestion

      If I’d done what he did, I would have been fired. He should be, too. And the asshole who promoted him should be questioned, too.

      He made anti-gay films at taxpayer expense. Even before retraction of DADT, that was a gross betrayal of the trust of his men & women under him. THAT is what causes military unreadiness and poor morale. He needs to go.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joe
      Joe

      With the suicide rate of young gay men so high, I feel that shit canning this guy will be a good thing.
      People need to understand that actions have consequences.
      To call someone a faggot is NOT acceptable. We all know if he used the N word he would have been terminated ASAP.
      But, us gays we love to think that we are the problem. Society has caused a lot of us to believe that if we are harassed and called names that it’s okay, because we aren’t worthy of respect.

      I am tired of gays giving free passes to those who perpetuate the hatred of gays.

      Please fellow LGBT, stand up and do not allow yourselves to be compromised. We deserve respect.

      No more excuses for gay hating, please!

      This ahole needs to be fired ASAP.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jackieohboy
      jackieohboy

      really nothing in the videos is that bad, but the fact that is was a captain making this really does show a terrible lack of judgement and common sense, they are right to punish him.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 7:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John
      John

      @DR: Agreed. This doesn’t speak well to how Navy leadership above Honors handled this either. A reprimand perhaps, but not removal. That was overkill in this instance.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John
      John

      @Idi Amin Dada: You call for respect when you choose the name of a meglomaniacal butcher to identify yourself as online? Huh.

      Jan 4, 2011 at 9:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • PatrickB
      PatrickB

      @Seriously?: Seriously, indeed. Using ‘faggot’ as a pejorative is homophobia. Calling something stupid ‘gay’ is calling gay ‘stupid’. Remember ‘that’s so gay’?!

      Jan 4, 2011 at 11:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whatever
      whatever

      afghanistan is landlocked. what’s the navy doing there anyway?

      Jan 5, 2011 at 1:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • steveMD2
      steveMD2

      How to inspire esprit de corp, unit cohesion etc – sure

      So he humiliates women and gays. On a ship with about 4000 people, 150 mph planes landing in 300 feet, and bombs stockpiled on the deck. And all kinds of people working on deck, different color clothing designates their function. BTW how many other minorities in the 4000 man crew will be thinking – am I next.

      BTW, every single landing is evaluated. Its not steves little 2 place 100 hp plane landing on a 3000 foot strip at 60MPH

      Just one of those people making one mistake cuz their upset or pissed and many could be killed. Or the sonar operators who might accidently ignore a questionable weak signal – that is a N. Korean sub ready to launch Korean war II

      this creep shouldn’t be allowed to drive a desk. He reminds me of a college kid, drunk, having a little fun

      Demote him a couple grades, toss him out of the service. His pension etc – maybe or maybe not.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 3:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • steveMD2
      steveMD2

      @Seriously?: what minority are you so we can demonize you.

      At least we have DADT ending. Which I am sure pisses you off. Just think of all those guys discovering people they know and respect are gay.

      They will be innoculated against your mentality. Sri, the world changes for the better

      Jan 5, 2011 at 3:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • steveMD2
      steveMD2

      change his name to Dishonor. From what I’ve read he’d do well in the brutal soviet military as they viciously beat on recruits etc.

      Which makes more vicious people – ad infinitum

      Jan 5, 2011 at 3:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • steveMD2
      steveMD2

      @whatever: Aircraft support of troops on the ground

      Jan 5, 2011 at 3:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • steveMD2
      steveMD2

      @Seriously?: Not to the people who are called fags. Youre right about the self indulgent over-ego’d guys flying those planes.

      Remember the movie – top gun, and how the portrayed super-pilot got himself in all kinds of trouble for violating rules.

      A dead wingman doesnt do you any good, just cuz he was showing off.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 3:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • steveMD2
      steveMD2

      @Fitz: should havew been done 5 yrs ago. He could prob get a job on some civilian rust bucket carrying garbage to china for sorting and recycling. He’s learn about stinks real time. Like what he did to women and gays.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 3:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jim in St Louis
      Jim in St Louis

      Once again the people who are doing the most talking about an issue are the ones who know the least.

      Context is everything- right? And we really don’t know the context here, I am more impressed by the large numbers of service people who have stated support for him and spoken up and given interviews and started facebook pages etc. I have yet to hear from anyone who was actually damaged or hurt by these videos except for those folks who seem to run around being perpetuly offended and outraged.

      Whole thing smells of media manipulation, the age of the videos, the timing of the release, that only the ‘sex angle’ tapes have been released since there are seemingly more out there, the tie in with DADT.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 5:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jim in St Louis
      Jim in St Louis

      @christopher di spirito: You wrote:Reports say female and male sailors serving on the USS Enterprise complained about the video and their complaints fell on deaf ears.

      I did not see that in any of the links to news sites. Was there actual complaints from the crew?

      Jan 5, 2011 at 5:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Well, if he is being disciplined because the military culture is changing and Gays are finally getting respect, great. If it is simply damage control due to negative publicity then I can’t get too happy about this. I guess we’ll never know. Don’t you wonder why this didn’t make the news 5 years ago? Or how some stuff actually gets in the news and other maybe worse stuff doesn’t? I do agree with Dr though, it does seem odd that this would surface now.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 7:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      These were amazingly funny, showed a guy that has no problem getting in the trenches with his troops, and even proved that watching the videos was OPTIONAL (hence why the one dude had never even seen one).

      Seriously, to relieve this guy of his leadership over these videos which were OPTIONAL to watch is kicking a good officer out of the Navy over politics.

      Only Obama would cave to this. GWB would have realized that the shit was funny and let it slide.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Spike: Exactly what would that suit be filed under? Are you from a different country? Here in the USA there is around 3-5 states that wouldn’t have laughed a suit about gay “harassment” out of the court room.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Seriously?: They more than screwed them over. This ship is set to go into war territory in 2 weeks. They now need to that with a new commander. That means the entire crew needs to learn to function with a new commander in two weeks. This is one place that politics will cost the lives of many.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Idi Amin Dada: You are so right. I mean, after all its only the terms “breeders” and “crackers” that are acceptable to be used in a derogatory term.

      Everyone wants to play word substitution, so lets go even farther, lets say this was a black XO that called white people “crackers,” do you really think he would have been relieved of duty? Lets say this was a gay XO (which will happen soon enough) that made fun of all his troops for being “breeders.” Would he have been relieved of duty?

      Even farther still, if he was a gay XO making fun of breeders, how many people here would stand up and say it was unacceptable for a gay XO to be relieved over some funny videos that were made 4-5 years ago?

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Joe: Lets stop using this, oh but the teenagers will kill themselves argument. Do you honestly believe that gay teenagers have it harder today than they did 10-20 years ago? Hell, my sexuality was a classroom topic one day that I missed class. My best friend sat in that class and told me about it. Did I go kill myself? No! Why? Because I had parents that taught me that life sucks and that you shouldn’t expect to be treated special because you aren’t special. When we teach kids that they are perfect little angels and no harm should ever come to them, they have no idea how to actually handle harm when it comes there way. Any teenager that will kill themselves over a few insults would have killed themselves the first time they got a bad review at work.

      I’m all for him using the “n” word as well. Many blacks use it on a daily basis. PC bull shit is just that. Many blacks also refer to whites as “crackers” and look at them with disdain on a daily basis.

      Except that he never disparaged the gay community. The videos are quite the opposite. The word “faggot” is just a word. It doesn’t nearly carry the same weight through history as the “n” word. Not to mention, in the context of real humor, offending someone is completely acceptable as long as you are willing to offend everyone.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @steveMD2: So, he should be punished because others are so unprofessional that they can’t control their own emotions? Seriously!?! I mean, I know that is the new American way and all, but SERIOUSLY!?!

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @steveMD2: Umm, what the bloody hell makes you think the repeal of DADT is going to suddenly make every gay troop come leaping out of their closet. I can think of 1,000,000+ reasons not to come out in the middle of the ocean to your crew mates. DADT repeal doesn’t make gay soldiers come out, it simply makes it so that you can come out as a gay soldier.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 8:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Idi Amin Dada
      Idi Amin Dada

      @John: That’s rich coming from someone named after a toilet.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 1:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bruce
      bruce

      homosexuality is not normal if it was every one would be a pickle smoker and that would be the end of the human race.homos are not gay they are homos but you or any one else can be gay or happy.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @bruce: heterosexuality isn’t normal, it’s just common

      Jan 5, 2011 at 2:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Plays Well With Yo' Mama
      Plays Well With Yo' Mama

      @bruce: High intelligence isn’t normal either. But obviously you wouldn’t know anything about that.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 2:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      #44 Truth – boy you’ll win a lot of folks over with that one – as if reproducing the human race isn’t necessary. I’m all for saying homosexuality is normal because it is – everything you can quantify on earth has a majority middle and smaller minorities on both ends of the spectrum. So absolutely without any fudging or faking, homosexuality is normal. But I don’t get what you’re saying, so in case I’ve overreacted, please explain why heterosexuality is NOT normal, just common??

      Jan 5, 2011 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      #39 Daez – thanks for some sanity – I see no one has disputed what you said! Although I think you’ll agree there is a difference between “a few insults” and a pervasively negative environment. Well, you did say that when you said do you honestly believe it is worse now than 20 years ago. Good post. Personally, I’ll get myself in trouble since I’m not the favorite here, admittedly I could only watch a tiny bit of the video, (my computer kept freezing) but I did not think Honors was being vicious at the beginning when he said “now you fags who are offended, just hug yourselves for the next 20 minutes.” it wasn’t nice, he should be disciplined, but many folks here seem like they want him castrated and then killed, to lose his pension and everything. As to the captive audience – I think entertainment nights are voluntary, aren’t they?

      Jan 5, 2011 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @Jaroslaw:

      You’ll see that i was responding to bruce’s comment that, and I quote “homosexuality is not normal”. Normalcy is a construct of individual view. Common and uncommon can be quantified.

      If you think that saying “…now you fags who are offended…” isn’t vicious what if he said now you niggers who are offended or now you chinks who are offended? Would that not be vicious? Do you not think he’s demeaning with this type of language? What about the “…just hug yourselves for the next 20 minutes…”? What do you think he is implying? That “fags” are wimpy crybabies. How is that not offensive?

      Are you saying that it’s ok because it was “voluntary” for these movie nights? That it’s ok to be a bigot, or racist, or sexist as long as the venue you are in is “voluntary”?

      You also realize that these videos were not made in the backroom of his home. That this was made in an environment that this sort of “humour” should not be made in. If my boss made such videos at work I would be demanding his immediate termination.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 5:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Truth – reproduction is not a “construct” – that is just the way it is. I already asked you if reproduction is optional? It seems after scientfic study, babies look at “good looking men & women” longer than average and good looking muscular men have stronger sperm etc. And women with wider hips and bigger tits produce more healthy babies etc. This does not prove that they would be good fathers or mothers in the long term, which society needs just as much. What good is reproduction if everyone is killing everyone else or stealing and people starve? However, I also strongly believe in the Kinsey scale that few if any (absent the forces of culture, religion etc.) people would be 100% straight or Gay. For example I’ve been attracted to men when I was as young as 6 or 7; loved the muscles and chest hair etc. but I could see myself banging a girl, but never ever would I munch the carpet. Then again a lot of straight guys don’t either. But the construct is in the west moreso than elsewhere, one much choose to be either Gay or Straight.

      As to the N word – I have to agree with Daez, it has much more societal and historical baggage than the F(aggo*) word. If you recall I never said it was okay to say any offensive words but vicious is another thing altogether. Others here mentioned “captive” audiences so I just clarified they were voluntary. Again, I didn’t say it was okay. I said he needed to be disciplined. But not lose 30 years of pension etc. But as others have said we need a sense of perspective. If just saying the “F” word is vicious, then what do you say about “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots? or all the other truly terrible things? Every negative thing is not the “max”.

      As to demanding your boss’ termination – man I wish people got this worked up and recalled Congress for giving a trillion dollars to Wall Street, and remember – not a loan – A GIFT and the bastards gave each other bonuses and spent money on spa weekends etc. And then didn’t even do what they were supposed to – free up the money supply and credit. Consequently, people are losing their jobs and homes.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 9:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John
      John [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Watch the videos and decide for yourself. Yes, he used the “F” and yes the videos have very raunchy humor, but are they really homophobic? I watched several of the videos and the overall impression is one of toleration and acceptance. I didn’t like them and found them offensive, but because I don’t like scatological humor, not because of an promotion of bigotry. If you watch the videos, I think you’ll see that conservatives and homophobes probably found it much more offensive then the gays on the ship. And I have to wonder if Owen isn’t a closet case… That’s just my opinion, but watch the videos and make up your own mind.

      Jan 5, 2011 at 9:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @Jaroslaw:

      First off you seem to want to tie heterosexuality to reproduction. They are not exclusive to each other. There are lots of heterosexuals that don’t reproduce and homosexuals that do. Also reproduction is not exclusive to sexual intercourse. There are many ways to reproduce.

      Do note that my original post has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction.

      You ask “I already asked you if reproduction is optional?”. You need to reread you post. You never posed that question. To answer you however, yes it is, no one is required to reproduce. We all have that freedom of choice.

      It’s quite interesting that at the age of 6 or 7 that you could see yourself “banging” a girl. I don’t know what you were doing at that age but I know that I wasn’t thinking of “banging” anyone let alone even knowing what that meant.

      You say “As to the N word…it has much more societal and historical baggage”. So what you are saying here is that weight of the word depends on it’s “historical baggage”? That it’s better to call someone a “faggot” instead of “nigger” because of “historical baggage”? That’s just nonsense.

      Not to mention that the “history” of the US isn’t the history of the rest of the world. In that vein would I assume that it would be better to call someone a “nigger” in China than to call someone a “chink”? No, you don’t call anyone either of those things, period.

      You ask “If just saying the “F” word is vicious, then what do you say about “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots?” They are both vicious. However one is inciting violence against another person(s) so how you think you could compare them is amusing.

      Using your logic above it would be less vicious to say “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots” than to call someone a “nigger”.

      “As to demanding your boss’ termination – man I wish people got this worked up”. Not being an US citizen I can’t help you very much with this. However I do point out things to my US friends that they should pay attention to. That’s about all I can do.

      If you are going to bring up “scientfic study” then you need to back that up with actual scientific studies. Otherwise there aren’t any.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 12:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @John:

      You say “Yes, he used the “F” [word] … but are they really homophobic? …overall impression is one of toleration and acceptance”

      I don’t know how you can consider calling people “faggots” is “one of toleration and acceptance”. I can safely say that if you call me that I know you aren’t tolerating or accepting of me. If this video was changed to use the word “nigger” and showed black men eating chicken and watermelon would you still say that that the “overall impression is one of toleration and acceptance”?

      Jan 6, 2011 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Truth – you said heterosexuality is not normal, just common. Well, I guess I don’t know what you mean then.

      The way I understand things, reproduction was pretty much a heterosexual affair until pretty recently, partly due to traditional “morals” and partly due to limited technology. Odds are your own parents are heterosexual. So heterosexuality IS normal but I clearly said homosexuality is too. Part of a spectrum. So if you disagree with this, please explain.

      I didn’t say I could see myself banging a girl at 6 or 7, what I said was I attracted to men very young, but not in a sexual way. At the present time although I have never done it, I don’t find girls repulsive and could see myself having sex with a girl but western civilization mostly makes a person choose hetero or homo. I say this to buttress the idea that there is a spectrum of sexual attraction. Which is to say also a number of things related to sexual attraction are normal.

      It is in odd way to have a debate to say “is it better to call someone a Faggot than a Nigger?” Since I DO NOT advocate calling anyone names, AND I ALREADY SAID SO; to say such a thing is to be inflammatory and an attempt obscure the point. What I’m trying to say clearly is that all words are not equal. If you feel that is nonsense, then we simply disagree.

      What does China have to do with anything? I incorrectly assumed we both live in the USA,(most of the posters here do I think) but even if not; Faggot is an English word, so at the very least we are discussing words of relevance to English speaking people. ??? China is still irrelevant.

      As to your 9th paragraph, starting with the word “using” – you cannot draw any such conclusion. I was comparing ONE word to ONE word. Faggot to Nigger. As to the various phrases, you say both are vicious. Again, I would disagree. Someone may say faggot and be discriminatory, rude, tacky whatever you want, and not be “vicious.” Some people feel Gays are “misguided” or “immoral” or mentally ill, others want to kill us or in the case of Peter Sprigg, want to deport us out of the USA. Do you really think all those points of view are equally “vicious”? Death is the same as slight intolerance? If you don’t understand there are varying degrees of almost anything, then it is hard indeed to have a debate.

      The studies I referred to have been cited in Readers Digest, Psychology Today and Newsweek. Look them up yourself if you dispute it. Even if you completely disagree with what I’ve cited, how does it impact the main part of what we are discussing?

      Jan 6, 2011 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Jaroslaw: Actually, what I said was a tad short sited. I really do believe that we have it easier now than 20 years ago. However, there really are kids that are tortured by their parents and their “religion” every day because of who they are. Those kids are really in a desperate place and my cold black heart really does go out to them, but I hope that most of them get help instead of killing themselves.

      It wasn’t exactly easy for me to get through my upbringing while being a gay male, but in the end I didn’t kill myself, I just got fucked up in the head. Sometimes, I’m not really sure its a better option.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 1:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      I will go on record to state that calling someone a “nigger” (a word descended from slave days back when it was used to dehumanize people) is nowhere near as offensive as calling someone a “faggot” which is the English term for both cigarettes and homosexuals.

      The two can not possibly be equated to each other. Both of the terms offend those that can be easily offended. However, much like some white people use the word “nigger” around their black friends to show solidarity, the same can also be said of “faggot.”

      Not to mention, language is always changing and always evolving and words are just words until we assign power to them.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      #54 Daez- I’ve read your posts, you do not come across as cruel and unfeeling to me. Almost anything one can say about any topic has exceptions and I think this is generally understood by all except people looking to nitpick and fight.

      As to your second paragraph, I feel the same way. It was really tough growing up in a rural, very religious area, totally surrounded by family watching your every move. I had sex with a high school buddy, but oddly it wasn’t love. I got the idea he just wanted kicks but I didn’t know a single person who wanted to “build a life” together. And of course, the straight couples, high school & college were dating, most eventually marrying etc. When I finally accepted being Gay 100% it was/is almost too late. I’m way past my prime for finding a partner and it is very sad indeed. I suppose if I lost weight, worked out a bit, it might be easier to find someone, but it is definitely much harder dating than when I was in my 20s & 30s.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Jaroslaw: The man I’m head over heals in love with is 54. He is just a very good guy. Its not about looks, its about attitude. If you love yourself and believe in yourself and work hard someone will come along that fits what you want that wants you. It just takes effort and patience.

      I spent the last 10 years single, and at the age of 31, I’m definitely not what you would consider part of the stereotypical gay crowd. I most definitely had given up all hope of ever finding anyone, but then it just sort of happened. Get out there and meet people. Go to venues you have never been to before.

      Gay campgrounds and other resorts at there very core are more friendly than the gay bar “meatlocker” hook up venue. Also, there are many decent organizations to get involved in.

      Oh, and I most definitely go insane and say some really nasty and hurtful things from time to time. Most of the people that call me on my shit have every single right. However, I have never and will never believe(d) in being politically correct and that means I’m going to upset and offend many people.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 2:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @Jaroslaw:

      “Truth – you said heterosexuality is not normal, just common. Well, I guess I don’t know what you mean then.”

      As I mentioned in my response to you that response was to bruces’ comment that “homosexuality is not normal”. So as you agree that is it normal would you not agree then that with his comment that it is then not normal? I totally agree that both are normal. It’s the flip side of the coin. If he doesn’t want it to be normal then hetero is then not normal as well.

      You said “I didn’t say I could see myself banging a girl at 6 or 7, what I said was I attracted to men very young, but not in a sexual way.”

      However your previous post you stated:

      “For example I’ve been attracted to men when I was as young as 6 or 7; loved the muscles and chest hair etc. but I could see myself banging a girl, but never ever would I munch the carpet.”

      I don’t see how saying that you could see yourself banging a girl is not saying that you could see yourself banging a girl.

      “Since I DO NOT advocate calling anyone names, AND I ALREADY SAID SO; to say such a thing is to be inflammatory and an attempt obscure the point.”

      Please reread my posts. I never said that you “advocate calling anyone names”. However you do try to put a spin on that is less offensive to call someone one thing over the other and do this under the guise of “historical baggage”.

      “What does China have to do with anything?”

      I was using that as an extreme example that “historical baggage” should not have any effect on the degree of offensiveness or viciousness.

      “As to your 9th paragraph, starting with the word “using” – you cannot draw any such conclusion. I was comparing ONE word to ONE word. Faggot to Nigger.”

      Actually you are incorrect. You need to reread my post. You asked me “If just saying the “F” word is vicious, then what do you say about “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots? or all the other truly terrible things?” You asked me to compare those two. You also imply that due to “historical baggage” the word “nigger” is worse than “faggot”. Ergo with that logic, according to your posts, it would then be less offensive to say “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots” than to call someone a “nigger”.

      “Death is the same as slight intolerance?”

      No it isn’t. So you should then compare “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots” with “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g niggers”. They both incite violence and death. But with “historical baggage” attached it is then the latter less offensive than the former? No, they are both equally offensive and vicious.

      “If you don’t understand there are varying degrees of almost anything”

      I totally agree with you here. However you don’t like that I say that “nigger” and “faggot” are vicious words and you also want to say that one is less vicious and/or offensive than the other.

      “The studies I referred to … Look them up yourself”

      Umm. No. If you want to refer to a study then you quote it. I am not going to do your job for you.

      “Even if you completely disagree with what I’ve cited, how does it impact the main part of what we are discussing?”

      My original post, to which you replied and started this dialogue, has nothing to do with reproduction. Though just naming a few publications really isn’t citing anything.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justiceontherocks
      justiceontherocks

      @Daez – all this “PC bullshit” is most damaging to the very people it claims to “protect.” You are exactly right. We disagree from time to time, I could not agree with you more about that.

      People who look under every rock for trouble are bound to find it.

      And the best to you in your relationship as well. My partner is a good bit younger than me, and there are challenges, but it’s been very well worthwhile.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      Thank you for your best wishes. I can definitely understand the challenges of an age gap, but for us it just sort of works.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Truth – you are trying to be a pain (or you are incapable of thinking) and I’m not going to let you get away with it.

      My second paragraph on post 49, the VERY first sentence compares ONE word to ONE word. There are many words following and then I say “we need perspective” and only THEN do I bring up a PHRASE to compare.

      Next – copied and pasted from #49:

      For example I’ve been attracted to men when I was as young as 6 or 7; loved the muscles and chest hair etc. but I could see myself banging a girl,

      OK, I didn’t specifically say at what age I could see myself banging a girl, but we are talking in the present – is it not generally accepted six year olds are NOT sexually active? Notice I said ATTRACTED to men. I did find adult, muscular male bodies attractive at the age of six. I go on to say I could see myself banging a girl, which I meant as an adult. Sorry if it wasn’t clear but again, it should be if you accept that most people know six y/o are not sexually active. You’re nitpicking I think.

      Alright – I’m not spinning anything to say one thing is less vicious or offensive than another. I said it flat out and I also said it is okay with me if you disagree. It is YOU who are being disingenous to try to make me look manipulative when clearly I’m not. Again, I said my opinion directly, so I fail to see how I was “spinning” anything.

      As to our discussion of “reproduction” well, you said simply heterosexuality is not normal, just common. That is all you said initially, NOT NORMAL. How can you even pretend to try to clean this up with “it is the flip side of the coin, I only responded to Bruce?” If you say it is not normal, there is only one conclusion to made by such a short sentence. I disagreed with you and got lambasted. I just can’t discuss this with someone who has as convoluted a thought process as you.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 3:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      #57 Daez, well, thanks realy; I’ll give it a try, but I’ve been to the community center, been in discussion groups, jumped in both feet with the MCC church, volunteered, and it seems to go nowhere. You have a bit of camaraderie stuffing envelopes or whatever and then it is over. I’ve tried talking, not talking – it just doesn’t work for me. They used to have a restaurant group and a couple guys came on to me and when I responded, nothing. Then I find out they were coming on to everyone apparently just to tally the results! I know attitude is important, but it is not like I tried this for a short time and gave up. I’ve been at it for a very long while.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 3:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Jaroslaw: While I feel your pain, I have to tell you that you should never give up on anything. Its always worth fighting for something you truly believe in. It just sort of happens when you least expect it.

      Two amazing rules of advice:

      1) You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find your prince.

      and

      2) Stop thinking about and living for the future; start living for the now while its still around to live.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      #63 well, you’ve given me a bit of hope – a 31 y/o with 54. :)

      You’re definitely right – go places I haven’t been before. Won’t find anyone moping around the house – that IS a guarantee! But just one more complaint if you will – I bathe daily, floss and don’t put on a lot of cologne, often none; and wear normal clothes – and I haven’t always been fat. This has happened to me so often I get paranoid. I’ll be sitting at MCC church or another gathering and people will come and sit by me and then a few minutes later inexplicably move! They don’t leave, they move to another pew. I look around and I’m the ONLY person alone in a pew. And I do NOT know these people – it is not like “word has gotten around”. Explain that! On the other hand, I befriended someone in Windsor, cooked for him when he was sick, just a friend, he ended up moving with his sister, but he sent me a letter saying I was the best friend he ever had. This from a guy with albums full of photos, doing all kinds of things with lots of people. Another friend sent me a very expensive box of chocolates unexpectedly with a card that said our friendship was very special. So you never know.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 4:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Jaroslaw: You just have to keep working it. If you are seriously going to a religious institution where there are assholes that would honestly sit down beside you then get up and move for any reason, then do yourself a favor and find a different religious institution.

      You just need to keep going on. If you don’t like what you weigh then get on a diet and get some more exercise. You are the only one that can do that for you.

      Thankfully, I’m not near as big of an asshole in RL as I am on QT, so relationships actually work well for me.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      It happens other places too, so I guess I’ll just have to ignore it. And I am on a diet. New years’ resolution. And you know when you’re in my position, living in the present is a real challenge., but I know you are right. It is so easy to overanalyze everything. Here’s a recent: A friend tried to introduce me to someone….he’s large, average looks – so I’m not intimidated right? The first thing out of this mouth (we’re on the phone) is that he was in a relationship for a a long time that should have never been (the guy was in the closet and he wasn’t) and he’s getting over it, a 8 year relationship. I thank him for being upfront, and tell him I’m not into judging and he’s going to call after Thanksgiving. No call. So, I did the right thing by telling friends that I’m looking, right? and I”m not going ballistic because ONE or TWO suggestions didn’t work; but again it is very very hard to do this for years on end. If you were single for 10 years and didn’t mind it, that is a very different scenario than what I’m talking about. But I PROMISE I will go to at least two completely new Gay venues a month with a positive attitude and let you know how it goes.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daez
      Daez

      @Jaroslaw: Well the first thing you need to do, and you will hate this advice, is get comfortable with being single. Being single is not a bad thing. You seem to abhor the concept of being single. Allow yourself to enjoy being single. Get out and do things by yourself. Don’t be afraid to go to the movies or to dinner alone. Its not until you get used to being single because you love yourself enough to realize that you are a complete and worthwhile human being without being in a relationship that you will actually be open to an actual relationship, and then people will notice that.

      I didn’t get my man by wanting to desperately get a man. When I met him, I was very secure in who I was as a person and I was just having fun for and by myself. I wasn’t out to meet anyone. I just let it happen.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 4:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Dahling – I do stuff by myself all the time. Mostly I like it, sometimes I don’t. The thing of it is people who have nothing to gain tell me I’m a nice person, goodhearted, generous; so I don’t think they are lying. I’m not Mr. popularity, but the friends I have do would move the earth for me if they could. I’ve been involved in causes, I’ve volunteered; all the stuff you’ve talked about. Very very few people even become friends.to make things worse, the people with major mental problems are the only ones who ARE attracted to me. I’m serious. I even went to a famous Gay shrink for a year, he couldn’t find anything. At $150 a pop, I think he would want to keep me if he could. And so life goes ON and ON and ON, you date a few people, you don’t have a second date. No one EVER comes up to you at the party so you do the intiating and after enough years of this you get paranoid. I don’t think I’m the world’s greatest most interesting person, but neither do I think I’m boring; I don’t hate myself. Writing as I do here, what I feel right now only gives you a snapshot in time. It is hardly the whole me. Just to let you know. Please don’t think I don’t appreciate what you’re trying to do, because I do. But when you NEVER have success, how can you NOT doubt yourself? Frankly to quote you, I’d be happy to even get the chance to kiss all the frogs – at least I’d feel I was making progress!

      Jan 6, 2011 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @Jaroslaw:

      “Truth – you are trying to be a pain (or you are incapable of thinking) and I’m not going to let you get away with it.”

      I am not trying to “get away” with anything. You don’t agree or are unable see what I am saying so what do you do? Say that I am trying to be a pain. That’s not very constructive. Some things I have disagreed with you on but I have not said that you are being a pain or that you are incapable of thinking. Which some people might find offensive. As I am not easily offended I do not take offence to your comment.

      “My second paragraph on post 49, the VERY first sentence compares ONE word to ONE word. There are many words following and then I say “we need perspective” and only THEN do I bring up a PHRASE to compare.”

      Absolutely. However you asked me to compare that phrase to a word. You said “If just saying the “F” word is vicious, then what do you say about “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots?” Here you are asking me to compare that word with that phrase. When you agree with Daez that “nigger” has more weight than “faggot” then it can be assumed that it is less vicious and/or offensive to say “kill the MF’ing Cock-suck–g Fa**ots” than to call someone a “nigger”.

      “OK, I didn’t specifically say at what age I could see myself banging a girl, but we are talking in the present”

      But you weren’t. I only went by what you wrote. In that sentence you stated being 6 or 7. How is any reader to know that you changed age bracket in the middle of one sentence? Just on the assumption that 6 or 7 year olds aren’t generally sexually active?

      “I’m not spinning anything to say one thing is less vicious or offensive than another.”

      But you did with this “historical baggage” comment. I quote:

      “As to the N word – I have to agree with Daez, it has much more societal and historical baggage than the F(aggo*) word.” To quote Daez “It doesn’t nearly carry the same weight through history as the “n” word.” So in essence one word has more weight to it than the other. Ergo less vicious and/or offensive.

      “…try to make me look manipulative…”

      I am only going on what you wrote nothing more.

      “How can you even pretend to try to clean this up with “it is the flip side of the coin, I only responded to Bruce?” If you say it is not normal, there is only one conclusion to made by such a short sentence.”

      I am not trying to pretend to clean anything up. What you quote above is post #58. In post #48, that’s clearly 10 posts previous, I said that I was responding to bruce’s post. Then in post #53 you said “Truth – you said heterosexuality is not normal, just common. Well, I guess I don’t know what you mean then.” So I tried to explain it a bit differently so that you might know or understand what I meant. Then you come back with me trying to clean it up. There is more than one conclusion to be made with my original comment. Two so far. Yours and mine.

      “..got lambasted..”

      I am sorry that you feel that I was trying to lambaste you. I am not. I am just trying to have a discussion and showing things from a different perspective.

      “…convoluted a thought process…”

      Thank you for thinking I have a convoluted thought process. However I do not. I am just a simple man. I just try to look at things from different perspectives. Not just one and certainly not the first one that comes to mind. I don’t profess to be perfect, absolute or all knowing. I do make mistakes and have been known to be wrong. However I do take issues when people try to pass off calling someone a “faggot” as being any less offensive and/or vicious than calling someone “nigger” under the guise of it having more “weight” because of perceived “societal and historical baggage”.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @Jaroslaw:

      As an aside I agree with Daez. The only one that cares about your happiness is you and I don’t mean that in a harsh way. Sure people will come and go that do care but in the end it’s you that matters to you the most. At least it should be.

      It’s like shopping for clothes. Instead of saying “oh I don’t look good in these clothes” you should say “these clothes don’t look good on me”.

      It can be hard and frustrating I know. I am somewhat in the same boat. Put on too much weight and I don’t socialize much because of it.

      Sure it would be nice to have someone to snuggle with but it’s not going to get me down because I don’t. If I do meet someone and then don’t hear from them I never think that it’s me. It’s always them. I like to think that they aren’t good enough for me.

      If I become unhappy with who or where I am then I need to change who I am. ie: lose weight. But I am not there and I may never be. I am happy with who I am and where I am and in the end that’s all that matters to me is me.

      If it mattered to me to find a partner I would go and lose the weight. Not because I am unhappy that I am overweight but because people judge others visually before anything else. I wish that it wasn’t that way but as humans what we see is what we see first. Of course health reasons as well. But I wouldn’t change my core personality.

      Though, of course, on here is only a fraction of who you are and what is going on in your life. Anyone here can only offer suggestions and thoughts.

      Have you talked with your friends and asked them what they think might be the cause of your “non-success”? Would someone who didn’t know you think you are intimidating? Maybe you move too fast?

      My ex is a very large person, tall and wide, and to strangers he can look very scary. Of course he isn’t but he would be perceived that way so people avoid him.

      These are just shots in the dark to maybe get some thoughts going.

      I think I am starting to ramble on here so I’ll just close with I do honestly wish you the best.

      Jan 6, 2011 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Truth – I’m not writing a doctoral thesis here, I’m trying to convey thoughts. You must know that six year olds are not sexually active or you have no common sense. I admitted it was not crystal clear, but hey, don’t concede and look foolish!

      I also admit calling you a pain or not thinking is not conducive to a good discussion. I’m sorry. Nothing else to say. I will say I’m running out of ideas to say you’re latching onto every word and not taking the whole in context is not helpful either. When I compared one word to one word and continued using more text, then talked about “perspective” I was introducing a whole new thought. That all words or phrases are not equally vicious. You are missing my point.

      Let’s try another illustration. 1. Mary’s salary goes down 5%. She is upset and say’s “oh my gosh, nothing worse can possibly happen to me. This is horrible. 2. Mary’s salary goes down 10% the week after. She says “Oh my gosh, nothing worse can possibly happen to me. This is horrible. then 20% then 40 % more. Certainly we agree that any cut is horrible, but is 5% as ‘horrible’ as 40%? I wasn’t asking for a direct comparison, I was trying to say “if you describe everything as horrible, everything as vicious, everything as the most offensive” then there is no meaning left to anything you describe.

      When you say I was trying to SPIN something, I think of politics. Bill Clinton or the Republican party “spinning” an issue. Everyone immediately thinks of being unethical or less than truthful, or skirting the edges of the truth. Is this what you are saying I’m doing rather than just me offering supporting evidence?

      I do not feel that in the total context of the video in question that ‘faggot’ was used in a vicious way. Actually your very last sentence is telling “calling someone a faggot is not less offensive than calling someone a nigger.” You know, he wasn’t talking to either of us so I didn’t take it personally. He didn’t call anyone that name, did he? However, if someone looked right in my eye and called me a faggot which I guess no one ever has, (to my face anyway,) I would be pretty offended. It just seemed more juvenile and uneducated than anything else, in the video. When you say it as you do in the last sentence, I do see your point. DO YOU seem mine that is just wasn’t THE most horrible vicious thing as explained in the Mary illustration?

      Jan 6, 2011 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      #70 Thank you for the kind words, which after our discussion I’m surprised you can be so caring! Wow. Actually I wasn’t always fat and I had the same problems. Not that I didn’t try different things. I thought I was cute enough, again, not the most handsome, not the ugliest. I never had to have the handsomest guy at the party or dance. So I just truly don’t understand. But think about this – some people are truly popular and others are wannabees. Is there enough popularity to go around? Is there enough anything to go around so that all will have enough? As a society we’ve managed it with food and that is about it. There just is not enough health care, or police or good air, water, safe neighborhoods quality schools for all. Now some will be lonely becauase they prefer to stay home and complain. That is definitely not me. I remember being scared out of my mind at age 17 going to a very urban University at night when it truly was dangerous, to go to the Gay Rap group. I saw one guy that was cute and he said something about having sex with a stranger in a mens room. I was shocked! The rest of the folks had similar stories. What do I have ahead I thought? I went to the bars, answered some ads in the gay newspapers, never had a second date. A friend tried to hook me up about 50 times and the conversations started out about sex. So that didn’t happen. I don’t know. Maybe some people are supposed to be unpartnered. Do you think so? How long does one go with zero validation?

      Jan 6, 2011 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Gee now I feel really bad, I typed 71 while you were doing 70. Please accept my sincerest apologies Truth. I am going to try to do a lot better job of disagreeing without being disagreeable.

      Ok, last thing. I did meet two guys that I absolutely fell in love with – Ken and Jimmy. They both cared, but I don’t think they loved me with the same intensity back and neither wanted to build a relationship. Ken left 230 miles away for a job and Jimmy left the state to ‘take care of his mom’. We kept in touch a long time, but he just kept moving. I do not feel that makes me unlovable, just incredible unsuccessful. I totally get that you must care for yourself first, and I have. but at some point, it feels like you are fooling yourself. Yeah, I’m a great person, I’m happy with myself, how come no one else thinks so? I’m not asking for a different date every night of the week. I’m not expecting life is without pain and disappointment. If I’ve learned nothing else, I know things are very very often are not what they appear with others. I’m just tired. I hope this makes sense.

      And I wish both of you T & D the best in the future too!

      Jan 6, 2011 at 6:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Truth
      Truth

      @Jaroslaw:

      “Gee now I feel really bad”

      Do not feel bad. In this type of forum it’s easy to get out of order. Plus this is all just text and can be “read” in a variety of ways. Emotions and inflections do not translate well.

      I do agree that what happened to Mary and being called a “faggot” isn’t the most horrible vicious thing. However I do view that it is a vicious thing to call someone a “faggot”. Most like due to the thousands of times I’ve heard it directed at me.

      It seems that current society feels that is less an insult/hurtful/derogatory and so on to call someone a “faggot” than anything else.

      For example there was a twitter war recently between Chris Brown and Raz-B. The first thing they went to was to take to insults via orientation. They didn’t start calling each other “nigger” or a variety of other related terms that I prefer not to mention.

      I think that if everyone felt that they were both just as vicious things to say then we would hear less of it.

      Alternately I would love the gay community to take it back like we did with the word queer.

      I am a very caring person. I am not the big ogre that I must appear to be. :)

      Also you really don’t have anything to apologize over. We were just having a discussion in a forum where it’s really easy to take text differently than it’s typed.

      The optimist in me would say that yes there is someone for everyone but the realist in me would say that’s probably not true. However that doesn’t mean you should think that you are that person. Always have to stay positive.

      I understand where you are coming from and it is hard not to ask why me? or why not me? That can be a slippery slope down into a dark place which really in my opinion isn’t worth the trip down there.

      If you are in touch with any of them have you asked them any of these questions? Sometimes I think that might be easier with people that you don’t keep in touch with very often. I think that might tend to be more open and truthful where friends might care too much to be brutally honest

      Jan 6, 2011 at 8:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Thank you. I have the same problem at work – we used to see clients in person. It is much easier to say things on the phone both them to me and vice versa than you would in person. But the employer decided we were going to go for quantity and not quality and so not only is it easier to be over the top on the phone, there is this relentless pressure for numbers. Still it does get frustrating here when the other person doesn’t get your point and obviously vice versa. Now you know I do not mean the person has to agree with me, just understand the point.

      The more we talk about this, the more I remember. What I mean by nut jobs? I had ONE salad with a guy and he wanted to know what to call me to his parents. Uh, my name is Jaroslaw. Not “boyfriend”, not “significant other” etc. Not only is he ready to marry after one date, he is a storyteller and librarian (won’t move out of state or maybe even out of the metro area to get a job) and prefers to live off a stipend from his parents. NO Thanks. My guy has to be a bit more independent than that. Another guy got offended because I dont’ walk in lockstep with ultra liberal Gay inc. and stopped talking to me after I gave him a David Bawer book. We didn’t even discuss it. After he read it, he went nutso. I thought “A place at the table” at least had some cogent points even if I didn’t agree with all of it. Now I dont’ know if I could do like James Carville and Mary Matalin and disagree 100% about society, life, religion, politics AND stay married. I personally think they’re either lunatics or extremely tolerant. Or maybe its just a gig to make a living. I don’t know. I agree the why me game (even if valid) is , again, a non productive use of time. I used to have a job where I would counsel clients – ok you’re (a minority, felon, not so well educated whatever) you may have to put in five times the job applications before you get a job. I can’t guarantee you’ll get a job even then. But I will guarantee feeling sorry for yourself and staying home will NOT get a job. So now we’re at the “physician heal thyself” stage, Right? ha ha!

      As to Jimmy & kenny, well, I think the interacial was an issue for Ken and it was a different time, not to say that excuses it totally, but I just pretty sure they were not ready to hook up for a lifetime. Jimmy followed his mother around like a puppy so there you go. I really pushed for him to move in with me, and build a life, but he just said “no, I gotta take care of me mama” in his beautiful Carribean accent. I could ask acquaintances – but here’s what happens with that: I had a date with a guy, we had dinner, and talked for a long time, went for coffee, talked another couple hours. Everything – growing up, high school, I had a horse, went to Europe etc. I didn’t consider it complaining about my human service job to say for just a few minutes that clients realy can be difficult and tell some interesting lies. We kissed passionately in the parking lot and he really was bowled over. said I was a great kisser. I did’t hear from him, he wouldn’t answer the phone or emails. I finally “begged him to answer.” He said I was too negative. I was shocked. Then I realized after a quite a bit of thinking – he told me his company moved out of state. Some of the people who followed got laid off after moving with the company. He was struggling as an independent contractor. Was I too negative? Or was he hypersensitive because he was laid off? I’m sorry but I do not think talking about work for 3 minutes out of four hours can be classified as an entire personhood as being “too negative”. And it was kind of funny lies at at that at least some of it. So what I”m trying to say in my rambling way is if you ask four people you’ll probably get four different answers. will this accomplish anything? Think about like at work, when they like someone that person can do no wrong and when they DO NOT like a person, he/she can do no right. I can’t pretend to be Mr. Jolly 100% of the time, that is not my personality. But I don’t complain all the time either. So again, we’re at the giant crossroads of I and “don’t know!”

      Jan 6, 2011 at 10:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @Truth:, @Daez.; @Jarolslaw:
      I just want to say how wonderful & touching your conversation is here on this thread. Sounds smarmy for me to say this, but this kind of conversation is so rare in the blogosphere, and *really* these are the kinds of talks that I wish we had more space/ time for here and in the “real world.”

      I won’t say more except to thank you 3 for a bright end to a very difficult day!

      Jan 6, 2011 at 11:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Thanks Jeffree! As I already said, the older I get, I find things just aren’t what they appear with others that I know. Everyone has difficulty and pain in their life and just lets be honest about it and help each other. I just had a cousin pass at 46 of skin cancer, three days ago. I thought he had the world by the balls, super high paying job doing something secret for the military – this was the kid who went to the dump at age 12 30 some years ago and made a remote control device to open his curtains by remote control from radio parts out of the dump! You just never know. We need enough money to pay bills, but money should be a means to an end, not the goal itself. Actually we always thought he was Gay but his sister told me he was a womanizer! I have no idea since we grew apart in our early 20’s. Oddly he moved here from way up north, bought a house, but never invited any family to it. Well, i better get to work cause if I’m late too much and lose it, I’ll have another worry!

      Jan 7, 2011 at 6:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert
      Robert

      Back to the original story…

      “The real traditions of the British Navy are rum, buggery and the lash.” (Winston Churchill)

      “Those who cannot remember the past are [lucky enough] to repeat it.” (with apologies to Santayana)

      Jan 29, 2011 at 6:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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