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PRIDE AND PREJUDICE

Should We Ban Drag Queens From Pride Because They’re Misogynist And Transphobic?

Drag queens – homosexuals dressed as women – and drag kings, women dressed as men, performing as stereotypical crossdressers promote, foster and reinforce the belief among the audience that any bloke in a frock must be a homosexual.

The council needs to prevent anything that reinforces out-of-date stereotyping.

If these people are allowed to perform in the town in the Pride, they must have a prominent sign stating ‘We are homosexual men – not transexuals.’

– 64-year-old trans-woman Rose White in a letter asking Calderdale’s Pride festival to ban drag acts or publish a disclaimer about them. Pride organizer Matt Gosridge responded: “We wouldn’t ever want to attempt to restrict or control in any way the people that attend the event. Calderdale Pride is all about inclusivity and freedom of expression.”

By:           Daniel Villarreal
On:           Jun 23, 2011
Tagged: , , , , , , , ,
  • 58 Comments
    • Benjamin Phillips
      Benjamin Phillips

      So the only way a boy is allowed to wear is dress is if they are transgendered? How about we let people wear whatever they want, call themselves whatever they want to call themselves, and everybody minds their own business about it? Is that a possibility? We have enough villains trying to tell us who to be, so can we stop policing our own community for undesirables, or will all non-trans, yet gender non-conforming people have to find a new closet to go hide in? These micro labels are stupid anyway.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jordan
      Jordan

      Shouldn’t we be promoting acceptance for EVERYONE in our community? Not just those in t-shirts and jeans? Or are we, too, going to pick and choose who we treat equally? Because I’m pretty sure that’d make us no better than the scum bags who are currently denying us rights.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Art Smith
      Art Smith

      I don’t think that Drag queens are Transphobic or Misogynistic at all.

      My friends who did drag are supporters of Trans people and women.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 4:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • chrissie riot
      chrissie riot

      Drag Queens are only misogynistic if only female bodied persons are allowed to wear dresses and makeup. And not all drag queens and kings are homosexual…

      Jun 23, 2011 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lars Eighner
      Lars Eighner

      This is simply another attempt to “scrub the gay off” by “Stop it! you are embarrassing us!” assimilationists. This particular version happens to come with a pretend leftist perspective, but it is as thoroughly homophobic as anything a Southern Bible-thumper could come up with.

      It isn’t even internalized homophobia. This homophobia is right on the surface. Why would you want signs to keep people from confusing transsexuals and drag queens unless you accept and advocate that being a homosexual man is bad thing and being a transsexual is not quite so bad?

      Does anyone really think the distinction matters to our common enemies? Will they really thing that “Gay is okay” if someone has enough surgery and hormones?

      If you really do not want to be associated with gay people and their long-standing cultural traditions, then stop trying to ride the coattails of their movement.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      Given that some drag queens and kings are … indeed… transsexuals, I have to say that Ms. White’s complaint is false.

      Drag Queens honestly get shit on by everyone – feminists in the 70’s-90’s were calling drag akin to “black face”, assimilation minded gay men were (and are) hand-wringing over their participation in Pride, now a transsexual woman is asking for a disclaimer. It’s a wonder that they still show up when some charity needs a fundraiser.

      Now, I’m a trans woman, and I see clear differences between most queens/kings and myself. But one can’t seriously deny that there is strong overlap between the two. One can also appreciate that drag has a strong history and is a part of gay male culture. I think, as a trans woman, it is far more important for me to correct people who assume I am a drag queen than it is to police gay male culture. Can queens/kings do more to clarify the differences without appearing to sometimes denigrate transsexual women (Ru Paul, looking at you) – yes. However, a call to ban queens from pride… seriously??

      Jun 23, 2011 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

      I am getting tired by a small group of M2F Trans people trying to rule the world. I am sorry that you are discriminated against. I have friends that are F2M… they seem not to have issues.

      I am tired with my life being adjusted to satisfy a very small group of people

      I am a Male… I was born Male… I love being male. Just because you may feel different does not mean that I now need to be a “sicmale” call yourself whatever you want… But I am, I always have been and I always WILL be just a MALE.

      I have friends that are Transvestites… They love that they love being called Trannys and NOT cross Dressers… the do not want to change who they are either.

      I bet that we all have friends that are drag Queens… Nobody thinks that they are anything but entertainers… They do not need Warning signs to let people know who they are.

      I never know what to call some M2F’s… a couple ladies that I know, want to be known as transsexual (since they have had operations etc) They do not want to be confused with Transgender, Trans, Tranny, Transvestites, Cross Dressers, CD’s and Tgirl’s

      My goal is not to offend anyone (sorry if I did), But to vent my frustration on people giving me a label that I did not ask for, DO NOT want and will Not use.

      Drag Queens and Kings have always been with us and will always be with us!

      Jun 23, 2011 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope

      What this Rose White character is trying to, basically police people’s behavior for some specious claim of transphobia, is shameful and disgusting and gives all of us trans women a bad name. I hope cis people don’t think that all trans women are as paranoid as this. Transphoobia is a very real and oppressive force, but she’s making a farce out of legitimate claims of transphobia because drag queens/kings don’t hurt people at all, in fact some of them are transsexual themselves. Rose White is a disgrace to our community.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 6:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • a.mcewen
      a.mcewen

      They are not transphobic and misogynist. And NEITHER are drag kings. Drag Kings, by the way, exist in many lgbt cultures, particularly the black community.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 6:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stace
      Stace

      Ms. White represents an older generation of transexual women who fought for years to be seen legally as women. In so doing they were able to get gender dysphoria listed in the DSM-III and be seen legally as women for the purposes of sex reassigment. For these women there is the thinking that not only are they not gay, they are straight women. For these women, reliance on stereotypical gender trappings and behaviors was needed for psychological and medical purposes. To me its always been an interesting part of gender studies.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      This is ridiculous. Sorry, but drag queens and drag kings and gender bending in general is a unique and vital part of the history of all LGBT people. what is to be gained by banning something many hold near and dear, that people have made careers out of? Please. I don’t know where this is coming from, but it seems like someone who wants to stir the pot for no good reason. Not worried, as it will never come to pass, but I am definitely annoyed at this suggestion.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 7:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NickadooLA
      NickadooLA

      * Please note that the participants on the Leather Bears of Calderdale float are not, in fact, actual bears.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 7:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ginasf
      Ginasf

      I disagree with Rose White’s position 100%… she has no right to ask for that.

      Before giving her blanket condemnation, I will say that one of the reason some trans women have attitudes like this is because of how media confuses gay male drag queens with trans women, often allows them to speak for trans women about trans related issues, uses drag queens to illustrate articles about trans women and many people in the LGQ community basically treat drag queens and trans women as identical groups (although, yes, there is overlap… but there’s overlap in nearly everything). Also, far too often, the trans community is supposedly represented by drag queens at public events (eg gay organized community events with Donna Sachet, Lady Bunny or someone like that). I saw an article about the top 200 hot lesbians at Autostraddle. No lesbian trans women were included, but two gay male participants from Drag Race were. If a community is given disrespect enough, believe there will be people who act out inappropriately in response.

      So, no Rose, you don’t get to ban drag queens from Pride and shame on you for suggesting it, but shame on the larger cis-bodied queer community (and straight media) for your mental laziness and insensitivity.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 7:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JR
      JR

      where would the LGBT movement be, if not for a few brave drag queens standing up to the cops at Stonewall?

      Jun 23, 2011 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Lars Eighner: Except trans people aren’t gay and don’t have to ride on coattails when trans people have been right there next to gays fighting for equal rights.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 8:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @JAW: So you start off by generalizing trans women?

      Jun 23, 2011 at 8:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Becca D'Bus
      Becca D'Bus

      Speaking as a drag queen who is a gay man, I do think drag needs to deal with misogyny and transphobia. There is plenty of drag that is informed by such attitudes. So yes, my people need to take a look at what we are putting out there. BUT, we need to look at it and respond to it on our own terms and in our own ways. The ways that Ms White is proposing, frankly, are the surest ways to not challenge the thinking. Drag queens have, for a long time, raised really profound questions in ways that are thought provoking, but fun and silly.
      In other words, tell me what you think needs fixing, don’t tell me how to fix it, I can figure that out.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 8:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TMikel
      TMikel

      64-year-old trans-woman Rose White is wrong wrong wrong. People should be allowed to wear whatever attire and or costuming they want. While I do not know why people choose to change their sex, attempting to limit men dressed as women and women dressed at men flies in the fact of common sense. In Scotland and other places, men wear skirts – kilts, women all over the world wear pants, and let’s not get into priests who wear cassocks during the week and other drag on Sunday. Some mean, and women, wear leather, cowboy gear, uniforms, lumber jack attire and so on. Can we not be larger than the right wingnuts and let our people be who they want and let them wear what they want?

      Jun 23, 2011 at 8:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @Aiden:

      LOL… Not at all… guess you did not read my post… I started by saying.. “a SMALL group” how is that general?

      BUT… Your response to Lars Eighner, was pretty specific… saying “Except trans people aren’t gay”… there are a hell of a lot of Trans folks that will be surprised to hear that. sounds like u are the one that is generalizing. And as an FYI… The LGB’s have been carrying you on our shoulders… without LGB’s (including the Drag Queens) The trans movement would be lost in the dust.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 8:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TortusW
      TortusW

      The whole issue of drag as playing into stereotype is a complicated one. I certainly don’t support this woman’s request, but I understand where it’s coming from. Ultimately the performer and the audience both have a responsibility when it comes to any type of act. While drag may have origins that tie it to cross dressing or imitation of another gender, as modern viewers we understand that the performance is not necessarily meant to be taken seriously. Whether the drag king or queen is attempting to be a truly convincing man or woman, or whether they simply want to call attention to gender stereotype, is their choice, but they need to do so responsibly. Similarly, the audience has a duty to understand the intention of the drag act, and not just take from it what they want to see. Cisgender people should have just as much freedom to explore attributes of all genders as transpeople have.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 9:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @TortusW:

      LOL… “responsibly”????? are you for real??

      Drag Queens/Kings… are what they are… and what they are needs no excuses… go watch “La cage aux folles”

      what about the Trans women (or as they are known around here as the T girls and trannies) who walk the streets looking like 2 bit whores… skirts that show their junk they are so short and tight… covered in cheap jewelery and perfume. They are the folks that you should have issues with… They are the ones that give the Transgender community the bad rep… NOT the Drag Queens/Kings

      Jun 23, 2011 at 9:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope [Different person #1 using similar name]

      “The LGB’s have been carrying you on our shoulders… without LGB’s (including the Drag Queens) The trans movement would be lost in the dust.”

      Then why were laws legally specifically recognizing trans people passed before any LGB laws passed in the 1970s? Please, when you try and make a statement, try and make it factually true.

      Saying that trans people have been helpless and dependent on cisgender queers like childern is demeaning and insulting. It’s no better than what assholes like Rose White says and I suspect that it reveals more about your attitude to trans people than anything else you’ve said here.

      Straight and cisgender people employ divide and conquer strategy against trans and cis LGB people to make us argue among ourselves and maintain the privileges they have in society. It looks like it has worked wonderfully here.

      Why are we so damn insecure that we have to say that gays have done everything, or that trans people have done everything or x is different than y? Who cares?

      I want freedom and I want it now. Not your petty, juvenile, stupid bickering.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 9:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @missanthrope:

      Please enlighten me… can you post a list of ALL of the laws passed in the ’70’s that specifically recognized Trans people that gave them rights, and protections… I must have missed them all in my youth.

      and while we are at it… what do you meany by… “straight and cisgender people”???

      I thought the trans people had renamed anyone who was born male or female and are happy being that as cis… Now you are saying that cis people can’t be straight?? and who the hell decided that I would be a cis person… I find the term OUTRAGEOUSLY OFFENSIVE!!

      Also… You may be insecure… I sure as hell am not.

      … “Please, when you try and make a statement, try and make it factually true.”

      Jun 23, 2011 at 9:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joe
      Joe

      Not only are drag kings and queens AWESOME- love ya! -but its not just fun for gays. We should be opening up drag to our straight friends as well. I have never seen anyone have more fun in drag than straight folks when I was in college. They got to release a whole side of themselves, act out gender norms/stereotypes/urges in a playful non-threatening manner, learn and grow from the opportunity, and the bonus is that its pretty hard to trash gay rights when you wear a tiara or a penciled mustache on the weekend. So drag it up, open it up, and never ever shut up!

      Jun 23, 2011 at 11:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Elloreigh
      Elloreigh

      @Rose White: “Drag queens – homosexuals dressed as women – and drag kings, women dressed as men, performing as stereotypical crossdressers promote, foster and reinforce the belief among the audience that any bloke in a frock must be a homosexual.

      The council needs to prevent anything that reinforces out-of-date stereotyping.

      If these people are allowed to perform in the town in the Pride, they must have a prominent sign stating ‘We are homosexual men – not transexuals.”

      For starters, does a drag queen necessarily have to be homosexual? I would assert that the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen isn’t necessarily one of orientation, but purpose. Not that I’m arguing that there are a bunch of straight men performing as drag queens and female impersonators. On the other hand, who hasn’t witnessed a straight guy doing drag as a joke.

      This is especially hilarious: “…reinforce the belief among the audience that any bloke in a frock must be a homosexual.” Apparently it has escaped Rose White’s notice that many blokes in frocks are indeed “homosexual”. If an audience doesn’t get the difference between a drag queen and a trans person, that’s hardly the fault of the drag queen. It’s a matter of the audience being in need of education on the matter. Not the drag queen’s job to provide it or abandon what they’re doing so that only trans-identified women and cisgendered women present themselves as female-gendered. As much as I try to be sensitive to the issues faced by trans people, it’s no one’s place to dictate to gay men that they can’t appear in drag in public. Trans people do not get to make the rules for gay people, any more than gay people get to make the rules for trans people. (Which is not meant to obscure or ignore the fact that there are trans people who also identify as gay)

      After all the years that gay Irish have spent fighting for their place in the St. Patrick’s Day parade, you’re seriously going to tell the drag queens they can’t participate in one put on by their own community? Wholly unacceptable.

      As for “must where prominent signs”, I suggest variations of “(bleep) you, Rose White!”. This kind of BS doesn’t go down well with me, considering what happened the last time gay people were forced to wear a symbol indicating their homosexuality.

      Jun 23, 2011 at 11:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A,
      R.A,

      If Rose White doesn’t want to be associated with gay people, the solution is very simple – leave!

      BTW, Rose – you can take Renee Richards, Chaz Bono, and all the Thought Police with you.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 12:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JAW: @JAW:

      Actually JAW, Illinois passed the first law recognizing transsexuals in 1955. From that time through the late 70’s-early 80’s there was a steady series of wins state to state that recognize that transsexuals are our sex and modify our birth records’ sex/gender markers. All but 3 states will change or amend birth records.

      That is the reality behind the myth that trans people are riding the coattails of the LGB movement. We were busy getting stuff done at a time when gay men had to be closeted. It is curious to look at the gains trans people were making prior to 1970 and to watch as those gains trickled to a halt and even started to erode. The more the lGB started to claim to speak for us, the harder it became to pass the most basic laws we need to function safely in the world.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 2:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      Based on comments on the article linked to by Queerty (above), Rose White has a habit of speaking out against anyone who doesn’t fit into her narrow definition of “trans.”

      At least on that (UK-based) comment board the VAST majority of responses disagreed with her views.

      Banning Drag Kings/Queens from Pride events in the UK or US, etc. —or making them declare something like “I’m not representing actual True Transexual people”— seems like a way to divide our various LGBTQ communities at a time when we need to recognize that we are in fact facing waaaay bigger threats to our rights than people who perform an artform that goes back thousands of years.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 4:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emma(MTF)
      Emma(MTF)

      It’s definitely not transphobic or mysoginistic. I think the main ‘deal’ (and i use that term really lightly, and this is probably the same as most MTF’s) is that they wear the clothing because “ohmygod look how OUTRAGEOUS it is that a boy is wearing this!!” while many trans people are driven to depression at the mere idea that they should wear clothing of the opposite gender.

      It’s more of a jealousy thing in my opinion :P

      still no reason to bar historical and influential archetypes from Pride. That’s too much, and Rose needs to GTFO with her discrimination. SHE IS NOT ALL OF TRANDOM!!! ^_^

      Jun 24, 2011 at 4:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emma(MTF)
      Emma(MTF)

      @(i’m a fucktard)JAW:

      Seriously? STFU. Gays depend on straight/cis help, so quit riding on their shoulders and splitting hairs about who’s struggle was worse or how well trans people have done in their struggles. Pull your fucking head out and think a little.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 4:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark

      @Art Smith: I have to say I have seen MANY racist and sexist drag queens out there including Shirly Q. Liquor and faux queen Wendy Ho. I’ve seen Hedda Lettuce make racist jokes too. I totally support drag though, but don’t think it should be used as an excuse to cover up lack of comedic talent in racist and sexist jokes.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 4:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      I really dislike division within the community. Any time there is a post involving trans folks, there is this argument about who is riding who’s coattails and blah blah blah. STOP IT! Here’s a solution: any trans people who don’t want to be associated with gays, go off and start your own movement. Same for the bi folk who have a problem with homosexuals. I get that there is a lot of what I like to call “gay elitist” behavior. There are well known activists who are transphobic and biphobic, and there are people all around who shun anyone who is not an “L” or a “G” in LGBT. But, we are an acronym for a reason. The whole acronym is LGBTPQIA. Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transexxual/Transgender-Pansexual-Queer/Questioning-Intersex-Asexual.

      There is a reason for that, and no, it isn’t just to give us a really bad Scrabble hand, either. It is because, to the heterosexual community, we are all one big group of freaks who defy every idea they’ve ever had about what is normal and right as far as sexuality/sexual orientation/gender identity/gender expression go, and I assure you they don’t care where you fall on the spectrum, they just care that you are not 100% heterosexual, identifying 100% with their gender binary. So it would behoove us all to stop all this infighting about who did what, who belongs where, who had what rights first, etc and stick together. Knowing your LGBT history is great and all of that, but please live in the here and now, where change is needed, rather than bickering about who owns the movement. We all own it, just by being who we are.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 4:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • manfred
      manfred

      This is so true. Drag queens are not only totally mysogynist toward women and trans people, but they present a horrific and confusing image for gay men, as well. It is time to throw off this old relic of oppression, self-loathing and hostility to the outside world. As for entertainment, I would suggest that attempting to lipsynch (badly) while lacquered in clown makeup does not exactly require a lot of talent, and indeed, they tend to crowd people with real skills from developing a following in the gay community.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 5:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrianZ
      BrianZ

      @manfred:
      Oh look!
      “I would suggest that attempting to lipsynch (badly) while lacquered in clown makeup does not exactly require a lot of talent”

      Way to generalize and trivialize an entire diverse group to force a point to match your narrow-minded point of view.

      Personally, I love that those who do drag don’t give a rats ass and do what they wanna do. It takes a lot bigger balls, so to speak, to put on a pair of heels and hit the stage than to conform to some bullshit idea of what people “should be”.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 7:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MC
      MC

      Exactly the opposite. Drag is a way for men to celebrate femininity. I say, let’s let everyone celebrate whatever sexuality their bodies respond to!

      Jun 24, 2011 at 7:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • skzip888
      skzip888

      Are Furries offensive to animals? Are people who dress in leather offensive to cows? Is “Dungeons And Dragons” offensive to people who lived in the middle ages? No! Drag is its own lifestyle / hobby with its own ethos, it does not need the approval of anyone, trans or cisgendered, to exist. Besides, I think most of us have the capacity to tell a trans woman in pantyhose and sensible flats from a Drag Queen in fishnets and lime green eye-shadow.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 7:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sweetbrandigirl2004
      Sweetbrandigirl2004

      @Laughriotgirl: Lets be clear here the laws you refer to T girl were passed to recognize “transsexuals and NOT the transgender which is totally different. I don’t have a problem with drag queens/kings as they are a part of gay culture that said I do think that the general public does confuse who is what when they see them or hear of them in the news. They don’t have the inside knowledge to known who Transsexual = GID = Gender Identity or who’s Transgender = gender expression and who’s doing drag = performance art. I also admit that I get frustrated that in EVERY gay event there is always drag can’t the gay community come up with anything else to make them more progressive and mainstream. BEcause if gays want mainstream equality then they need to present as mainstream and move away from the flamboyance or at least keep it in the closet.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 9:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @BitterBrandi2004: Your grasp of history is weak. What do you know about 1955?

      The definitions of “Transexual” & “GID” have changed over time; they continue to evolve, and are not even identical in every country. You act as if they’re set in stone. Hey, you know those “guidelines” you refer to everywhere you post? Whoa, they get updated too.

      Who appointed you as the voice of the people you consistently refer to as “True Transexuals”?

      Jun 24, 2011 at 10:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • evanb
      evanb

      OMG really?? Well we should also prohibit hunky dancing boys in skimpy clothing, because they are deeply offensive to those of us who can never hope to look like that. And PFLAG is offensive to those whose parents have rejected them. And Absolut is offensive to alcoholics. Hell, just cancel the parade.

      Honestly, folks, thicken your skin a little, or just stay home; this constant posture of easily-offended-self-importance is preposterous.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 11:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sweetbrandigirl2004
      Sweetbrandigirl2004

      @Jeffree: Dear Jeffree here for your consumption is the latest requirements from the current DSMV

      Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:

      1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment

      2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years

      3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality

      Dual-role Transvestism (F64.1) has three criteria:

      1. The individual wears clothes of the opposite sex in order to experience temporary membership in the opposite sex

      2. There is no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing

      3. The individual has no desire for a permanent change to the opposite sex

      You’ll notice that the key differences between Dual-role Transvestism and Transsexualism is that Transsexualism requires a desire for surgery.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @Laughriotgirl:

      I am not sure where you get your facts… but gay rights around the world have been evolving since the 1940’s. the first Transsexual of note Christine Jorgensen transitioned in 1952… The operation was illegal. Gay rights began in the 1920’s… laws began to change in the 1950’s and 60’s.

      I am not sure what law that you mention from Ill in 1955, but you still cannot change your sex on your Birth Cert in Ill if you had the operation out of state. Please enlighten me.
      There are still places where it is illegal to cross dress.

      The LG community has been more active voice in the fight for rights. We are more organized, and also, many have money that they can contribute.

      To suggest that LGB’s are holding back the Trans community is way off the mark LGB’s fougt hard for the ENDA Federal law… It had a hard time being passed, due to Trans being includes… Sadly the Trans community was excluded.

      The Trans community is Very divided… There are Transsexuals, Transgender, Transvestites… Then there are M2F and F2M. PLUS Many are straight as well as LGB

      The F2M post-op Transsexuals, seem to be the most quiet of the group. Most live their lives in Private. Some are Gay and some are straight.
      Are there any F2M post op Transsexuals on this thread?

      The M2F post-op Transsexuals are a bit more vocal, and rightly so. They also want to live quiet lives… some are Lesbian and some are straight.

      The Transgender people, as I have been told, have not had any operations, medications etc. The Transgender people want to live as a gender different then their birth. This group seems to be the most vocal. Most of the vocal TG people seem to be men, dressing as women. This part of the community seems to confuse and indeed alienate many members of the entire LGBT community.

      The Transvestite people were the original Trans people. Most Transvestites seem to be straight men that enjoy wearing women’s clothing on occasion. The Transvestites have been re-named cross dressers by the TS and TG Trans people… many TV people are not happy that they were given a new name by others.

      Now the trans community is not Happy that I am a Male, I was born Male, I live as a Male, will die as a Male… The Trans folk want all of us who were Born male and female and are happy being male or female to now become CISMale and/or CISFemale. That will never happen to me

      Once again I state… the Trans community is holding back the LGB community. I wish they would start their own movement and leave us alone

      Jun 24, 2011 at 12:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LandStander
      LandStander

      @skzip888: “Are people who dress in leather offensive to cows?”

      Umm….Yes…Yes I believe they would be! You are wearing its skin, after all….

      Jun 24, 2011 at 12:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lindsey
      Lindsey

      @JAW
      umm i don’t really care about this argument, but doesn’t cisgender just mean 1 gender….. and if so, wouldn’t someone who was born male, has a always been male and wants to remain male in fact only have one gender….. therefore that person would be cisgendered…. I don’t think that anyone is slighting you by calling you cisgender it is just much easier than saying “people who have ever only had, and only will ever have one gender in their lifetime”

      Jun 24, 2011 at 3:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lindsey
      Lindsey

      I’m just sayin

      Jun 24, 2011 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bear
      Bear

      I thought pride was about being proud of who you are. No matter who you are. Gay, straight, Bi, transgender, transsexual or anything else you label yourself. We are all in this fight together, to be who we are. No one should tell us who we are, within or outside our culture. Disclaimers stating that we are men or women in drag is taking away of the thrill of cross dressing. It’s entertainment, that’s what it is. I know many drag queens and a few drag kings, and they dress like men and women off stage. It’s not an all the time thing for them. I also know some cross dressers, which is different. Drag queens and kings are entertainers while cross dressers like to dress in what is considered the opposite gender’s clothes. Clothing appropriate dressing is insane anyway, everyone should be allowed to dress how they wish. I even knew a guy that wore a skirt to work at a hotel, nothing could be said as it was his right to wear it. I commend him for that, and anyone that dresses how they feel, regardless of if it’s appropriate to our culture or not. I’m proud to be who I am, and so should everyone else, without anyone telling us who we need to be.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bear
      Bear

      @Sweetbrandigirl2004: I agree with you that most of the entertainment at pride is drag queens/kings. I enjoy watching, but I’d like to see more. I personally am part of an improv troop and do stand up (usually wearing jeans/shorts and shirt) Get some musicians, stand up comedians, dancers (like jazz dance, hip hop or something) and maybe some sketch comedy. Would be fun to see a change.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 3:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JAW:

      Actually JAW, I was keeping my scope to the US. IL required proof that the operation be performed in the US – that was a relatively new development and was (is?) being challenged in court (I think it was challenged, and now the requirement is that a US DR. examine the petitioner – could be confusing cases).

      If we expand outside the US, we get into cultures that had/have legal status for people who could very likely be considered transsexual (granted, it is hard to place modern western concepts on people from different cultures and times). You simply asked for proof that transsexuals were obtaining rights and legal standing independent of the LGB. In every single case in the US, state-level recognition was done by trans people without assistance of LGB political groups (many of these laws predate a cohesive L/G movement with any political weight). This isn’t intended to minimize LGB politics, just a simple observation of when legals wins for trans people were happening in relation to the gay social scene and political movement.

      “To suggest that LGB’s are holding back the Trans community is way off the mark” – Probably an issue of perspective. Given that the LGB has decided that they, and only they, are qualified to speak for trans people – and hell is paid for any trans person who may disagree with the messaging of the LGB groups – it is easy to see how and why the LGB is, or appears to be, more vocal and more organized. When you have someone else talking over you, it’s hard to draw attention to what you are trying to say.

      There are a host of examples where trans rights were sidelined or traded for gay-only rights. There are plenty of examples of trans people used to provide examples of “gays through history”. I can’t think of one state-level hate crimes law that passed that didn’t reference at least one set of trans woman-specific data (even in the places that failed to include us).

      I will say, with history and legislative precedent behind me, that I think the LGB is holding back transsexuals. I wish LGB groups will stop insisting they speak for us, using us to prop up their statistics for job and hate-crime protections, sidelining our legislative needs, and the continual appropriation of trans women as gay men and trans men as lesbians. Either that, or we learn to work together – I’m open to either (but sick of the insistence of one and the reality of the other)

      “Now the trans community is not Happy that I am a Male, I was born Male, I live as a Male, will die as a Male”

      Can’t speak for the totally of any community – but I’m genuinely unconcerned with your level of comfort as a man beyond being happy you are happy. To the point you are getting at though.. I’ll stop calling you (and non-trans people) “cis” when you all stop calling me “trans”. Until my womanhood isn’t debated (even among LGB people) and needs to be marked with “trans” – I’m at a loss why the linguistic opposite should not also be applied.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sweetbrandigirl2004
      Sweetbrandigirl2004

      @Laughriotgirl: I wish you would be more clear when speaking in general terms and when using the term “TRANS” as whom it is your referring to whether it’s transsexuals or transgender. AS for who been propping themselves up I will say, with history and legislative precedent behind me, that I think the transgender community that is holding back transsexuals. I wish the transgender groups will stop insisting they speak for transsexuals, using us to prop up their statistics for job and hate-crime protections, sidelining our legislative needs, and the continual appropriation of the gender Identity diagnosis for which they have NO Proof they have. I’m sick of they’re insistence of one and the reality of the other.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @Sweetbrandigirl2004: Oh Brandi… and I was intentionally ignoring you and the fact you quoted something that works against the point you always twist every trans topic into.

      Anyway, you asking for clarity, when you conflate “gender” and “sex” as often as you do while stating that TG and TS are vastly different makes me laugh.

      As far as your rewording of my comment… generally *yawn*

      “I wish the transgender groups will stop insisting they speak for transsexuals, using us to prop up their statistics for job and hate-crime protections”

      Shall we look at your commentary every time a transsexual or transgender woman is attacked? It is your contention that they are usually “not diagnosed” and “self-medicating” and therefore, in your view, not transsexual. It would seem then that you are appropriating TG people – not the other way around. (f you actually believe what you wrote).

      Other than that, I don’t have much to argue with you about. There are clear differences between transsexual people who have a medical need to transition and transgender people who have a varying set of needs depending on how they are experiencing how society is gendering them. Two things that don’t fit clearly together.

      Jun 24, 2011 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @Lindsey:

      LOL… you are asking the wrong person what the meaning is… If you are using a word that you do not know the meaning of Shame on You.
      You are helping to make my point… Trans people have tagged, Or I guess tried to tag, me with the the term.

      It is NOT much easier for others to tell me to change who I am. Perhaps it is easier to change what Trans people call themselves. There are a lot less of them/you then there are of us.

      As an FYI… I called the DMV, and asked about changing my sexual identity form male to cismale. The lady wanted to know if the call were a joke, she got upset with me and hung up. also… cismale, cisfemale, cisgender are not even in spell check… guess the words do not really exist.

      Jun 25, 2011 at 10:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lindsey
      Lindsey

      oh well i guess you should go cis-fu(k yourself lmao

      Jun 25, 2011 at 10:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • iantombower
      iantombower

      This is awful. Is Rose White lesbian? I’m not sure.
      If she isn’t then she has no validity to comment in this way and if she is then she should be ashamed of herself for trying to deny part of our culture.
      She lives where I was born and raised and I think she has brought shame on my hometown.

      Jun 25, 2011 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JAW:

      “I called the DMV, and asked about changing my sexual identity form male to cismale.” considering there isn’t a way to mark “trans male” on your ID I’m not exactly sure what your point is.

      You do know that many words are not in spell check… right? Lots of plurals will get red lined, combination words, as well as less common words. So, lets say I feel your pain at having to be marked as “cis”. I’ll trade you – you can go unmarked and me just a man and I’ll be a trans woman. However, for all time, when talking about sexual orientation there are people and then there are gay people and lesbian and bisexual people. My sexuality goes unmarked and just, you know, normal.

      Jun 25, 2011 at 4:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JAW
      JAW

      @Laughriotgirl: my point is… that some in the trans community are not happy with me being male. they want me to become a cismale… or singendered (not using the word male at all). Some trans people want the rest of the world to change since they have changed. There is no reason to redefine 98% of the population to cis.

      You may have noticed on some of the other responses, that many Trans people have issues with each other. The TS do not want to be considered TG… The TG’s do not like the TV’s… oh wait the TV’s have been renamed Cross Dressers by the TS and TG folks. the topic of this post shows that some people have issues with Drag Queens.

      I have several friends that are F2M… they try to stay away from all the drama… One has seen some of the posts and has been laughing. he will not do any posts. He said that the Drama is do to the TG community. Many of them are over the top and make most people feel uncomfortable

      Jun 25, 2011 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laughriotgirl
      Laughriotgirl

      @JAW: OK, since you aren’t getting my point… you have F2M friends, right? Your friend or you needs to make a comparison where not being trans would have influenced your knowledge on a topic. How is one to frame that difference? Is it just the f2M is “trans” and you are “male”? In that case. you are gay a gay man and I am a woman – your sexuality is marked mine is not. fair? NO talking about “straights” no asserting that people in opposite sex relationships have trouble getting what it is to be gay… just default people, and gay men.

      Not sure how old you are, or how much you know about LGB history. The name game and the quest for legitimacy that some transsexuals like to play in small and inconsequential compared to some of the dust ups between the Mattachine (sp?) and the GAA/GLF or both of those groups and lesbian feminists. The difference is the trans stuff is happening in public and at a faster pace. But trust me, for years there was only a “gay movement” in name only. That, and some trans people are simply caustic and have only a passing acquaintance with facts – happens to every population.

      Jun 26, 2011 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • zintheth
      zintheth

      @NickadooLA: LOL, they should definitely make that disclaimer next year, otherwise real bears might be offended!

      Jun 27, 2011 at 2:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • chris Anzalone
      chris Anzalone

      Get over it, and just have fun.

      Jun 30, 2011 at 12:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Matt Thomas
      Matt Thomas

      So sick of this entire discussion. Drag queens aren’t entertainers. They’re unattractive gay men who dress in drag to get attention. Just a bunch of attention whores who are the “blackface” of the gay community. Just get over all of yourselves. Gay community is always screaming about equality but God forbid someone exists that doesn’t meet their definition of what “approved” gayness is. No other group spends more time trying to hang on ridiculous stereotypes than the gay community. Ugh.

      Jan 12, 2012 at 9:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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