Okay, I need to start thinking about my response to Pastor Erik’s next letter.

You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. I got that your apology is sincere and heartfelt and is gratefully accepted.

I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I personally believe that you meant well and that you were sincerely trying to be helpful. And for that, I would not fault you.

I am not a man of religion, but I will be only too happy to join you in wishing that all of us, straight and gay alike, can one day live in grace and peace and without judgement of each other.

Looking forward,

Brian

Clearly stated by it’s “actions?” Signing the Declaration would be the only “action” a reasonable person could accept.

Saying “yes” to all sexual orientations is not the same as Declaring:

Homosexuality is Now Wrong, Sinful or Deviant.

You have done nothing to change the “Christian” beliefs that have harmed homosexuals for centuries. Nothing. In fact, it’s very weasel-ish to try to talk your way out of a very simple, very clear statement. I would think “ending confusion,” instead of “interpreting actions,” might be very helpful for all LGBTQ people.

If the Declaration is what your congregation actually believes, I’m certain they would be glad to sign it. Bring it Sunday.

Brian asked if my congregation could make the same statement I did, that homosexuality is not sinful, wrong, or deviant. I said no, because that would be a step backwards for a congregation that has clearly stated, by its actions, that it says yes to all sexual orientations and gender identities.

However, the fact remains that…

• Discrimination against queer people was not eliminated in the Lutheran Church.

• There is no universal Lutheran statement that “gay is OK” or any equivalent. The Social Statement lays out four categories of opinion about homosexuality. They range from abhorrence to celebration. Nowhere in the Social Statement does it state that Lutherans now whole-heartedly endorse the full inclusion of LGBT people in the life of the Lutheran Church. It basically just describes the debate we’ve been having for the last couple of decades.

Brian asked if my congregation could make the same statement I did, that homosexuality is not sinful, wrong, or deviant. I said no, because that would be a step backwards for a congregation that has clearly stated, by its actions, that it says yes to all sexual orientations and gender identities. In my congregation, I talk about discrimination, homophobia, hetersexism, etc, and the harm they cause, just like in my letter. How does that contradict me saying that my denomination hasn’t gone far enough?

My job is very secure, thank you for your concern. ;)

Pastor Lura

I’m sorry, but I was actually hoping for some enlightenment on the subject matter.

Laying your belief system is not enlightenment, Sir. The proper term for it is “preaching”.

My words were chosen to inspire an inner reflection not condemnation.

And that is where I begin to hear the suggestion of yet another sermon by yet another religious person who wants us to “look into our hearts and re-evaluate our life-style choice” as God and Jesus would want us to.

However the vast majority of the individuals who post here are obviously angry and rightfully so I reckon.

A thorough perusal of these threads will reveal a multitude of trolls and fag-bashers who are like moths to the flame and whose only purpose for coming here is to stir the shit and play agent provacateur. It is to be sincerely hoped that you are not among them?

My society and culture hasn’t been a friend to you, so I’m sorry and understand your intolerance.

This is quite true. Actually, however, the intolerance first sprang from society and culture which has been thoroughly indoctrinated in bigotry, hatred, discrimination and intolerance, so accusing the LGBT community of being intolerant in return, is not quit fair…even if it is understood.

The way to end the intolerance, is to stop practicing it. Please lead the way, if y’all will.

But I thought this was a theological discussion board within a “queer” site.

Yes, it was. But, you changed it into a sermon about what we “queers” do with our bodies and that, Sir, is none of your concern, no more than what you do with your wife is of concern to us. Privacy is a right for both sides, but is rarely observed by the religious community who believes that they have the God-given right to check our bedrooms out to see what’s going on. Sorry. That’s just being downright nosy and a busy-body.

Guess they call them straight answers for a reason.

Sorry, but that comment flew right over my “queer” head.

What are you trying to say?

But, here is a FACT: Religion, by making homosexuality “wrong,” has contributed to ALL the pain and suffering of gays and lesbians. It still contributes to 1,500 gay teens taking their own lives each year. In spite of that “reality,” some cling to the story.

Well, your story (and all the others) are about to change. Good people will put equality before Religion. Good people will end the hate and dscrimination. Good people will “save” those gay teens from taking their won lives.

This conversation is about “good people,” honest, compassionate and fair “good” people. Religion can promote whatever beliefs they want – except for the lies about homosexuals. We are Not Wrong. We don’t need your “stories” to know that.

By the way, I have a tremendous amount Faith – faith in the goodness of human beings, and their ability to show love, compassion and common sense. I can’t prove it, but I believe it. Stay tuned.

You’ve risen to the occasion with with both your screen name “Deadhorsebeater” as well as being a “blow-hard”.

You’re not here for a discussion.

You’re here to lay religious shit on us about sodomy and fornication.

Take it someplace else, please. We’ve heard it all and don’t need to hear it yet again, if you don’t mind.

Well, if in fact that is what happened to Pastor Lura, then it appears that the Lutheran Church has not changed it core value system, only it wrapper.

And more than likely, this surface-trim, “accepting” posture of the Lutheran Church has been brought on by the hemorrhaging of it’s membership over the past years.

Someone has to fill the church coffers. Gay money, as many have discovered, spends as just as well as str8 money.

And perhaps, flows into the church coffers even more profusely than str8 bucks.

That’s too bad. I liked her first message. Then, after it appears she was disciplined, she retracted all the good stuff. She’s clearly been wounded. Do you know if Lutherans still roast heretics?

Given that we have not had any further response from Pastor Lura since her flip-flop on post no. 74, two possibilities exist for her seeming silence.

1) She is highly pissed-off by our questioning of her Church’s motives or…

2) She is too embarrassed to make any further comment because she now knows that we know that her church is not, in fact, willing to state that homosexuality is not wrong, deviant or sinful.

I am inclined to believe that it is the latter reason. Any further comment would simply serve to make her arguments look ludicrous and Pastor Lura strikes me as far too intelligent a person to cast herself in the light of both liar and idiot.

I will paraphrase Pastor Lura’s comment by saying that I hope she and her church of which she is a member, can feel that one day they will be able to utter the words we need to hear and re-affirm them in writing, but continue to skate around because of the still homophobic hierarchy they have made themselves accountable to.

I just wish they’d stop denying us our “Bliss”.

Either drunk…or on drugs. LOL

Yes. It’s just because they’re hurting themselves! And that’s why we have to kill them. So they don’t hurt themselves with the anal sex.

No, no, no…you just don’t understand.

It’s not their pookie holes that they are worried about (after all, this life is temporal), it’s their souls that they are saving.

That’s why they have to kill them. *sarcasm font on* LOL

By welcome, my partner has a 20 hours a week job in a denomination and congregation of which he is not a member. He is also an Episcopalian.

That sounds like welcome for all the right reasons.

Remember, Lutherans are not the Borg.

Those at conventions tend to be better informed than those at home. Since we know that homosexuals and lesbians are normal people, it becomes easier to get your 50%+1 at conventions.

The real issue is educating those who aren’t at the conventions.

That is the reason why you see the Episcopal Church still demanding that other national churches in the Anglican Communion truly conduct the “listening processes” of actually talking to openly gay and lesbian Episcopalians/Anglicans that were called for in resolutions at several Lambeth Conferences.

Those provinces, such as the Anglican Church of Canada and the Episcopal Church, that have actually engaged its gay and lesbian members are being condemned by those that haven’t.

For those of you who like to paint everyone with the same broad brush, remember that Great Britain in the late 1800s could celebrate Sir Arthur Sullivan (who, besides writing the music for operettas, also wrote the commonly used tune for “Onward, Christian Soldier”) while trying Oscar Wilde.

(I know there is debate about the real sexual orientation of Sullivan. Even so, there are those that say the “Kevin” for his hymn tune St. Kevin really isn’t an Irish saint, but a male lover. The evidence exists in letters.)

So what. EVERYONE is “welcome.”

Unless these Lutherans make a very clear statement about homosexuals they still believe we are wrong/defective etc. It’s beginning to sound like a con-job.

What is up with the Pastor Lura flip-flop? ELCA threaten her?

As for me, I wouldn’t and won’t endorse (attend or tithe) either the Episcopals or the Lutherans as a moral authority until they do something REAL to address the wrongs done to LGBT. And a nice welcome – even a warm welcome – even a warm welcome with music! – just ain’t it.

@Bob Chapman: It would mean that a church had actually taken on some G-Damned leadership. Not everyone would follow that bit of pastoral teaching, but a lot of them would. And those that didn’t would find themselves on the outskirts, and maybe, just maybe, they, too, would realize how misguidedly hateful they were being. But I guess that kind of change wouldn’t really mean anything to you. It’s better to have a place to go on Sunday mornings, so by all means. Don’t rock the boat. They welcome bigots, there, too. Maybe you’ll get to sit next to one. Have coffee and fellowship after.

And in reference to your other gem…:
@Bob Chapman: OK, so the word homosexual wasn’t invented until the 1800s. Fine. You can’t possibly be suggesting that no one before then understood that some guys only want to get with guys. Perhaps homosexuality (by any other name) is just a choice people started making in the 1800s. That’s helpful. Thank you for your astonishing contributions to the equality movement.

Oh, and thanks for the laugh on this one:
Considering that it is easier to cause damage with anal intercourse, and that “holiness” code is also a “health” code (holiness and [physical] health come from the same root word), there would be prohibitions.
Any prohibitions were prohibitions against potentially harmful actions, not against a state of being.

Yes. It’s just because they’re hurting themselves! And that’s why we have to kill them. So they don’t hurt themselves with the anal sex.

I’d say that would be huge for our Equality. +70% of Americans believe we are “wrong,” they got that belief from religion and religion alone. Curiously, Lutheran Pastor Lura Groen (Houston) said we weren’t wrong and then a few days later changed her mind. She’ll still “affirm” us though. Affirmation has no effect. It means “it is what it is.” For instance, an Appeals Court will “affirm” a decision of a lower court – basically saying “we agree.” So, Lutherans and UCC “agree” that we are indeed homosexuals. That has no cause or effect. It’s an empty nicety. Just, as Pastor Erik said “window dressing.”

If one asks a very simple question: Do Lutherans believe homosexuals are wrong, sinful or deviant? The answer is apparently yes, no and maybe … BUT GEE WHIZ YOU ARE WELCOME HERE. Oh, and BRING CASH.

Changing people’s hearts takes time, and will never be done.

Um, let’s see if I have this right now.

Changing people’s hearts will NEVER be done. But, it will take time.

Such profound clarity! A veritable paragon of sagacity.

Are you a friend of Pastor Lura by any chance?

It would mean the Churchwide Assembly passed something. We know that, no matter what a higher level says, not everyone will buy onto it.

Changing people’s hearts takes time, and will never be done.

From a practical point, I try to stay out of my partner’s gigs. That is, I will still primarily continue to go to my Episcopal Church. That doesn’t mean I haven’t been to my partner’s employer. And, I’ve been welcomed warmly.

Can’t speak for other congregations.

There is no universal Lutheran statement that “gay is OK” or any equivalent.

Now you know why Pastor Lura gave us such an ambiguous commentary in her post no. 74.

How painfully similar that sounds to the promises Obama made to the LGBT community…not of which have been kept so far.

Why does it always come down to “We’d like your money and your support, but don’t expect anything in return for it. Oh, and remember your place when you address us and don’t forget to be respctful when you do.”

Anal intercourse is condemned regularly. But, this act is condemned for male-female as well as male-male sexual relations. There was no specific anti-gay agenda. Considering that it is easier to cause damage with anal intercourse, and that “holiness” code is also a “health” code (holiness and [physical] health come from the same root word), there would be prohibitions.

Any prohibitions were prohibitions against potentially harmful actions, not against a state of being.

As everyone reading this should know, one may be homosexual without ever having anal intercourse.

Be careful about applying arguments by St. Thomas Aquinas to all of Christianity, in particular his arguments from nature. Aquinas is not respected in Orthodox Christianity as he is in Roman Catholicism.

Some of you have clearly been hurt by those taking the name of Christ. That is unfortunate–for you and those that did the harm to you.

Not all of us have done harm to you. Besides, we don’t worship humans. We worship Jesus Christ. He is not some Sky God, removed from the world. God is with us now.

If you are having problems with some of followers of Jesus, can you imagine how many problems Jesus is having with them?

http://www.queerty.com/4-thing.....-20090909/

A very Lutheran question is, “What does this mean?” I think it is a relevant question for all of us as we digest the news from the Lutheran world.

• A queer couple looking to have a wedding/blessing ceremony will not necessarily be able to have it in any ELCA congregation. Again, this is a decision that pastors and congregations are going to have to make for themselves. There may still be places that won’t ritualize any of the milestones of queer life.

I am certain that we would all be interested in hearing Pastor Lura’s comments.

I too see a clear shift to a defensive posture.

Sounds a little like the old song by Karmen Miranda “Yes, We Have No Bananas”.

I agree with Brian (although not with his questionable use of bold) – we need and deserve clarity. I was thrilled by your initial article because it was brave in its honesty and simplicity. You were not afraid of the simple clarity in the phrase, “Homosexuality is not wrong, sinful, or deviant.”

Now there’s so much doubletalk and double/triple/God-knows-how-many-standards. It’s incredibly disheartening.

You have one standard for yourself, one for your congregation, one for other congregations, one for your denomination, one for other denominations, one for gay clergy, one for straight clergy…

After all, you said that the affirmations of gay clergy and blessing same-sex unions, as covered by the ELCA vote, were “Not enough, not soon enough, not clearly enough, but something.” [emph added] You were clear about the further responsiblity of straight clergy when you said, “I expect my straight allies to take up this work, not ask to be congratulated for the small steps we have taken.” And you demonstrated a strong need in the non-Lutheran queer community for no less than the clarity of an apology. These are all bold, courageous calls for integrity, accountability, and clarity. They were inspirational.

But then, enough time went by for the thread to die down, and then you came back for… what? Official clean up?

Apparently, for the rest of the Lutherans, deciding to allow gay clergy and bless same-sex unions, “still falls short of the church apologizing for the sin of homophobia, heterosexism, and silence.” But for you and your church, those same ‘affirmations’ show that you are “already way past that.”

Excuse me?

So everyone else needs to be clear, but you can just use those affirmations.

And you’re the only one who mentioned anything about having your congregation vote. When do congregations ever vote about their beliefs? You’re a pastor. A guide. A spiritual leader. So lead. Keep being bold and declaring the truth. Don’t backpedal and say that you’ve already done enough.

And don’t play your semantic games with us. Affirmation is not nearly a clear enough word, and you know it. You’re affirming… what? That we exist? That we can preach? That we have relationships? There has to be something clearly stated to be able to affirm it. You can’t affirm an abstraction. An example of how completely obscure ‘affirmation’ can be – from the UCC’s ONA info:
“What does “Open and Affirming (ONA) mean?”
To say that a setting of the UCC is “Open and Affirming” means that it has publicly declared that “lesbian, gay, bisexual” people (or those of all “sexual orientations”) are welcome in its full life and ministry (e.g. membership, leadership, employment etc.) It bespeaks a spirit of hospitality.“

So when you affirm us, are you just welcoming us? Are you just being a gracious host? Or are you actually doing something of real importance? Because now you’re contradicting yourself.

Please get back to us when you make that decision. It’s very important. Gay kids are still committing suicide because conservative pastors and their congregations don’t play with semantics when they tell us we’re sinners. So be as clear as you can be.

“The church, including the Evangelical Church of America, has done great harm to people who are Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender. Not only has it denied our callings and refused to bless our relationships, it has provided a theological framework for homophobia. This is more than causing pain to us; this is participating in our discrimination.”

What the Christian church has done for 2,000 years is make homosexuality wrong, sinful and deviant. THAT is what has caused LGBT pain, suffering and discrimination. Welcoming, affirming and “being nice to” LGBT people does not change how we have been defined by Religion. Only religion can do that by un-wronging homosexuals.

Some of us would like to worship at a place that makes homophobia and bigotry wrong – even dismisses those people. We expect that from our “moral” leaders. We expect that from you.

Brian-
My congregation, and the religious group that creditionals me (Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries)as well as the MCC, many UCC churches, and others, affirm all sexual orientations and gender identities. Do you know what that means? Affirm means “say yes too.”

Your statement is a negative: “We aren’t saying no.” I’m not sure why you’d prefer that to an affirmation. It is a step backwards.

If I asked my congregation to vote on the statement that homosexuality is not sinful, deviant, or wrong, they’d be confused. They’d say we’re already way past that, have made clear affirmations by taking risks to marry same-gender couples before they were allowed by their bishop, by calling an openly Queer pastor. Why should they take a step backwards, say they don’t say no, when they’ve already said yes? Because some guy on an internet board asked them to?

My congregation, and many others, affirms, celebrates, and rejoices in the diversity of sexual orientations and gender identites that God has made. Including yours. I hope you can feel that one day.

Pastor Lura

I’m not talking about what individuals have said.

Have any of you considered that bishops, as a group, would have had to be pretty stupid not to know who they were ordaining through the centuries?

Consider that the loudest individuals are usually those with the most to hide. Just don’t confuse the individuals with the organization.