A Euro-Canadian HIV advocacy group known as Men2Men Collective claims to have conducted the first study to analyze the causes and consequences of HIV stigma within gay communities across Europe, North America and Australasia. And while the study’s lead author figured that, “HIV stigma should have decreased with the introduction of effective therapies,” the results showed him just how wrong he was.
The results revealed that gay men continue to stigmatize and discriminate against HIV-positive men through social exclusion, ageism, rejection, violence, and discrimination based on physical appearance. These reactions have a “detrimental effect on the quality of life and emotional well-being of HIV-positive gay men,” perpetuating “higher rates of depression, feelings of isolation and high-risk behavior.”
Of course, in order to know the extremity of such attitudes, we’d need to know how many men were involved in the study, but the news is still sad for the time being. However, gay guys (both positive and negative) can take part in their current survey about HIV to help round out the data.
First consumers, then doctors, and now gay men?!! Isn’t there any group that doesn’t treat HIV-positive people like pariahs anymore?
How about we take this to the next level?
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Fitz
But that’s impossible! As your site clearly shows, gay men are not all rejecting
and excluding. Just look at the lovely and humanistic articles that abound here.
Oscar Raymundo
We are the bullies.
Kurt
I wouldn’t date a HIV+ guys but I wouldn’t exclude him as a friend. That is very wrong.
the other Greg
@JayKay: Ah, so you don’t have a boyfriend. As I thought. And you never will.
QJ201
Well blogs like Queerty giving practically ZERO coverage to gay men living with HIV doesn’t help.
CampusQueer
@JayKay: Wow. You are a piece of work and a sad individual.
DenverBarbie
It is all-too-human to fear those who remind us of our own mortality, and those living with HIV/AIDS sometimes do. However, that is not an excuse to treat anyone with anything less than dignity and compassion.
verybookish
I wouldn’t date a guy I knew was HIV+, but I’d still be friends with him.
Fitz
@CampusQueer: That’s just how some people deal with their own irrational fear. The truth is, almost all of us are going to die premature deaths based on lifestyle choices. Most of the people reading this will die prematurely from getting too fat, smoking, driving too fast, etc. Statistically speaking. Some people want to push that reality away by pretending that their choices are ok, but other people’s are MESSED UP.
Frank
I would never date HIV+ guy….I think I have the right to decide … on the other hand, I have no respect or sympathy whatsoever for barebackers or bug chasers, they are also responsible for the spreading of the virus…they doing being full aware of the HIV transmission and yet they insist on having unsafe sex
JayKay
@the other Greg:
…And what are you doing later? Come on, we’ll go see Breaking Dawn and I’ll buy you any three items off the McDonalds value menu.
@CampusQueer:
No, the only sad ones here are the left-wing P.C. gestapos who demand that healthy gay men put their lives at risk by sleeping with octogenarian AIDS patients so they don’t have to feel bad.
Cam
“”The results revealed that gay men continue to stigmatize and discriminate against HIV-positive men through social exclusion, ageism, rejection, violence, and discrimination based on physical appearance. “”
______________
This doesn’t make sense.
If they are discriminating against people with HIV because they have HIV that is one thing.
But discriminating against people because of age or physical appearance are two entirely separate things.
And correct me if I’m wrong, but these issues are in the hetrosexual world as well, but of course lets just have another article on here about how bad gays are.
christopher di spirito
Maybe that would begin to change if gay blogs like Queerty published just half as many articles about HIV, its treatment, management, new drug trials, and first-person accounts of living with the virus as it publishes articles about trans issues?
Ross
I have to say that is very sad. As someone who is dating an HIV + person (myself neg) some of these comments are ridiculous. My partner was in a monogamous relationship with a guy who happened to be going to bathhouses while he was out of town on business and contracted it from him. They had been together 7 years. Goes to show, you really do never know. If you are safe, as you shoud be anyways, contracting HIV is not easy and actually the life expectancy is equal to that of a diabetic. There are many serodiscordant couples out there.
P.s. I’m a doctor, so save the medical rhetoric and knowledge
Jay Pat
@Ross:
I totally agree. I think its just that people are misinformed, afterall we are Americans..yay abstinence only.
As we know, heterosexual serodiscordant couples can even have kids these days.
If you’re that worried about you mortality, there’s probably a higher chance of you getting in an bad car accident on a freeway than contracting HIV from an HIV+ person who is medicated and you use a condom. You should be using a condom anyways.
Good god people. Guys my age are so careless and stupid. Don’t get me wrong, I totally understand the concerns and how people that are negative don’t want to put themselves at risk. The truth is, many of us probably already have slept with someone who was positive who either didn’t know he was positive at the time or simply didn’t reveal his status. Just wear a fucking condom people (that was my PSA for World AIDS day).
And for the asshole who said people should stop being sluts and be in a monogamous relationship, it isn’t that easy. Girl, you must have a lot of luck in the dating world then.
Brandon
Of course, in order to know the extremity of such attitudes, we’d need to know how many men were involved in the study, but the news is still sad for the time being.”
Awesome writing Dan Villarreal. According to my 11-year old niece, who takes a class in English, you meant to say “extent.” Also, why is it “sad for the time being” if you don’t have any data to suggest whether negative attitudes are common or rare?
Why can’t Queerty fire this appalling failure of a writer and bring on someone competent?
Hyhybt
I wouldn’t go around calling people sluts, but surely it’s true that (other things being equal) the fewer people you have sex with, the less likely it is that one of them has HIV, and therefore the less likely you are to catch it. It’s not a matter of morals, though: just math.
Kyle
I have been HIV+ and have had 6 relationships since diagnosing 18 years ago, and i never had any reject me or tell me they couldnt date me because of my status, and all of them were and continue to be HIV-. I have been with my current boyfreind for over 5 years, he is negative, and we do everything to maintain that he stays that way.
Cam
@christopher di spirito: said…
“Maybe that would begin to change if gay blogs like Queerty published just half as many articles about HIV, its treatment, management, new drug trials, and first-person accounts of living with the virus as it publishes articles about trans issues?”
_____________________-
Actually a valid point.
ewe
Who gives a shit about what people you don’t know or care about think or care or don’t care about you.
chink change
@ewe: Well said.
Joe
@Kyle I’m really happy to hear that. I love hearing happy stories about not only HIV + folk but magnetic couples. My own partner is HIV + (I’m negative) and was beaten up when he found out while with another partner a few years back. That guy then told everyone he was friends with and he was pretty much cast out. Because of that, he has an incredibly hard time trusting people. It’s very sad. He’s such an amazing guy and I’m lucky to have him.
It’s really sad because so many young guys get HIV + from being taken advantage of, not because they were being slutty or dumb. Then they get outcasted. It really is still an issue and people forget this.
Mr. Redding
One of the things this article fails to mention is that some of these poz gents who feel discriminated against by fellow gays are feeling the scorn electrically, that is, so much of our world is now online. And as we all know, there appear to be quite a few poz barebackers slamming meth on manhunt & craigslist. Sorry, but if you are that kind of poz guy, I have every right to judge you. This article quantifies none of the accusations made. Yes, horrible discrimination happens against positive people, and it must end. But do I really need to embrace and empower bug chasers because it may inadvertently make a poz person feel bad about the fact they are poz? I have dated poz guys and not a single one of them could deal with the fact we would never have a raw intimacy. What about that kind of reverse discrimination, the kind where Neg men become the a-holes because they politely wish to maintain their negative status. There is a mutual discrimination going on here and not a damn person is saying it.
jkb
I love how there are those who claim they would never date anyone they “knew” was HIV+. It’s a good thing men don’t lie…or are not ignorant of their status…or…
George412
What does ageism have to do with it? I live in NYC and I can’t tell you the number of times I meet guys online who are under 30 and are HIV +. It isn’t just just guys over 50 (the original wave from the 1980s) that are positive.
Andy
@JayKay: You really are a spiteful, reductivist troll to mischarecterize the sero string debate as you have.
Dominic
@Cam: “But discriminating against people because of age or physical appearance are two entirely separate things.” Not entirely separate in this context – just look at the comments on this page from jaykay about “octagenarian AIDS patients”.
Many gay men think older guys, or guys that look too thin or look a certain way are HIV positive – thus two “separate things” get linked, rightly or wrongly.
the other Greg
@JayKay: “…And what are you doing later? Come on, we’ll go see Breaking Dawn and I’ll buy you any three items off the McDonalds value menu.”
What class! You’re so sweet. (Unexpectedly funny response, kudos.) But my boyfriend isn’t cool with me seeing Breaking Wind, I mean Breaking Dawn, so I’ll have to pass.
Michael
Yeah, some of these comments are pathetic. I am HIV negative but have had HIV positive boyfriends in the past. My last date is HIV positive and, yes, we hooked up. You should be smart enough to know what you can/can’t do and what precautions you have to take.
Michael
btw, I’m a total top and I bareback. You can try to crucify me on this but you don’t catch AIDS from topping. Go find a total top that has it… You can’t. Any guy who has it knows all to well he got if from bottoming. If you could catch it from being a top I would have it already. Yes, this is probably stupid, but I was barebacking my boyfriend who was HIV+ and was not taking any medications for it…
skippyk
i think its sad that anyone would judge someone else based on a sickness!!…regardless of how they got it..it seems that so many people are full of BS judgement..why don’t you try and take those fingers pointing outward and point them on yourself…it baffles me how many in our community and elsewhere have a catty stance that is extremely transparent when put under a microscope..you’re just scared shitless that you don’t amount to shit!!..have some friggin compassion and learn to love one another..we’re all human and we all make mistakes.
Adam Sank
“Some Gay Men Still Treat HIV-Positive Gay Guys Like Dirt.”
Yes, particularly the trolls on this site.
David
I think one reason why gay hiv negative men are discriminating against hiv positive men is because we all know how HIV is contracted and spread. Unless you’ve been on another planet, HIV/AIDS has been with us for the past 30 years. And we all know that it’s one of the only potentially deadly diseases that is contracted and spread by one’s behavior and the consequences of ones actions. Knowing your status and your partners status and wrapping it up if you’re not sure, prevents the spread of HIV/AIDS….simple as that.
So, if after 30 years of knowing how HIV/AIDS is spread and you still engage in behavior that put’s you at risk, then you shouldn’t be all that surprised if someone who practices safer sex 100% of the times doesn’t want to play with you.
As a guy in his mid 40’s who is HIV negative, I too have discriminated against guys who have told me they were positive. For me it all comes down to a judgment thing. If you knowingly allowed someone to fuck you raw without knowing their status, they you’re probably not a person who I regard has having good judgment, and we’re probably not going to have much in common.
–Just my two cents–
Mike in Asheville
@David: It is not discrimination to choose to not engage in sex with another man on the basis that he is HIV+. That is simply taking control of your body your way.
Discrimination against someone who is HIV+ is repugnant and immoral. Discrimination, though, is denying them their right to pursue their happiness (happiness that is based on informed consent; no breaks for liars and cheaters). If you have not denied someone HIV+ with a meal or home, a job or opportunity, the right to be left alone, well then, you have not committed discrimination. If you have denied food and housing, employment and opportunity, simply because someone is HIV+, well, then you are a shit.
Based on your post, this 30+ years HIV+ boy, suspects you are not a discriminator, you are someone who rightly and properly choose partners who fit your desires, emotionally, sexually, and health wise. As well you should.
Andy
@David: You’re a fucking idiot. Seriously. If at 40 you are naive enough to believe that a social disease affecting more than 20% of your peers can be fixed by simply “wrapping it up”, and that therefore this STD makes some sort of broad statement against the character of others, you are dumber than the vast majority of people I know who actually got the disease. Your reductive attempt to blame the victim illustrates everything that is wrong with modern prevention efforts. Prevention education is bastardized to legitimize the existence of a viral underclass, but infections keep climbing. This is a serious fucking problem, but no one ever talks about it.
Andy
@Mike in Asheville: Mike, seriously, with friends like you we don’t need enemies. The valid question is whether serodiscrimination is effective, and whether or not honest, disclosing pozzies actually pose a relatively significant risk. The answer appears to be “no”. This isn’t “taking control”, it’s discrimination without any real benefit. How would you feel if your husband left you because he wanted to “take control” of his body?
roger
even on here the comments equate being poz as dirty, im poz and no i dont allow anyone to bareback me, i dont care if they are poz or neg it aint gonna happen.i wont bareback them either, 99% of the time i wont even get off. i have had some ask me to infect them and i told then they we insane and walked away. even if you are in a relationship you never know what the other is doing 24/7. as to manhunt, craigslist etc, my profile says right up front im poz, the majority in my area looking for bareback are the ones claiming to be neg. they are fools some know their stats and way too many dont, and some are liars in town to f their brains out the go home. it all boils down to ignorance on all sides of the fence.
Mike in Asheville
@Andy: Wow, way to misread everything to make some pretty idiotic conclusions.
Engaging in sex with someone HIV+, like me, is risky for everyone who is HIV-. PERIOD. Condoms break and open sores are often concealed. It is simply the way things are; and to argue that the relatively minimal risk of exposure when following safe sex practices mandates HIV- to have safe sex with HIV+ is wrong. It is not discrimination to determine to only date sexually with fellow HIV-‘s.
My hubby and I had many upon many conversations, back 25 years ago, when we went to get tested together. He had his decisions to make and I had mine to make. (At the time, 1986, we both assumed that the disease would take me within a year or two; that is a big shift in view for today.) I gave him my love to leave our budding relationship when we got our results. Had he decided to abandon our love relationship for a friendship or no relationship at all, that would not have been discriminatory — it would have been one gay man choosing to live his life.
Way too many gay men think that it is somewhat of a necessity to engage in sex with every other gay man. There are plenty of men in the HIV- sea as there are plenty of men in the HIV+ sea; and there are plenty of men where serostatus is unimportant.
Mike in Asheville
@Alexantovmonsander: NO ONE WHO IS GAY/LESBIAN IS “NORMAL.”
So, trolling the gay blogs with your nose high in the air, you, Alexantovmonsander, are not normal. Indeed, you are just another self-loathing afraid of your own shadow hypocrite pile of smelly shit. You are worse, much worse, than the bigoted homophobes of the ilk of Frothy Santorum, Newt Grinch, NOM’s Maggot, FRC, Liberty Cunts, et al., because they have not been victims of they homophobia they espouse.
And don’t worry, little little little man, no self-respective HIV+ man would want to be with such a vile scum bucket as you.
Blowhard
I’ve been seeing examples of this in my personal life left and right. The other day, a moronic co-worker of mine said, after a cocktail or two, that he didn’t want to ever go to Fire Island because he didn’t “want to die of AIDS.” Outside a party at the West Village’s Monster bar, a twink smoking outside said he didn’t want to go back inside because “everyone looks AIDsy.” The most notable one was a dorky friend of a friend, who said he didn’t want to go to the Eagle because everyone was “45-year-old drug addicts with AIDS.” In the latter’s case, I’ve done everything in my power to make him feel uncomfortable as possible so he won’t do it again. Idiots, all.
I think I might be swimming in the wrong social circles.
Ben
Judging from the map featured on this superficial websites article about the average penis sizes in Europe I would say many of them were infected hopping up and down on a strangers penis in France.
Jimmy Fury
@Andy: Really? People deciding who they want to fuck and who they don’t want to fuck is discrimination?
Do you really not comprehend how you just argued that people don’t have the right to choose their own sexual partner?
Wow just… wow.
Russ
@Kurt: I’m HIV Positive and smoking hot. I don’t need friends like you.
Russ
@Kurt: @Kurt: I’m HIV Positive and smoking hot. I don’t need friends like you.
Russ
I’m HIV Positive and smoking hot. I don’t need friends like you.
Hyhybt
@Jimmy Fury: This would be a good place for that joke about he union-run brothel…
David
@Andy: Yes, I do believe that a social disease affecting more than 20% of my peers can be fixed by simply “wrapping it up.” I’m not trying to blame or demonize anyone who is HIV+, I’m just trying to EDUCATE more of my peers to be sexually responsible so we can omit further transmission.
Within the last year I’ve chatted with several dozen guys online who are in their early 20’s, and who are newly HIV+. The running theme as to why they became positive is always the same….they had unprotected sex with someone that they didn’t know what their status was. And when I asked if they knew about the risk of fucking raw, they all said yes, but they were willing to take the risk.
@Andy: My previous statement was directed to the guys who know the risk, but still engage in risky behavior. I use condoms 100% of the time, and before I stick my dick in someone, I always ask questions regarding their status, and then I decided whether or not I want to fuck them. If I don’t like what I hear, we don’t fuck.
The bottom line is that we’re not animals and fucking safely or not fucking safely is a choice.
Erik
@Ross: You should never have unprotected sex, even with a supposed “monogamous” partner. Why? Because people lie. Trust no one.
Christopher Banks
As a gay man with experience of mental illness, I find it’s easier to disclose that than HIV. I know guys who are both pos and have a mental illness, and they’re far more willing to be out about the latter.
In New Zealand there’s been a study done recently looking into the experiences of HIV poz men and discrimination. They were asked to keep diaries, and some of the entries are quite sobering.
I blogged about it here: http://bipolarbear.co.nz/2011/07/07/out-of-place/
We used to be all in this thing (the epidemic) together.
Andy
David maintains that the virus is spread primarily amongst people who “know they’re taking a risk”. Mike asserts that condoms, antiretrovirals and negotiation of risk aren’t entirely suffucient to protect against the virus. This is an bizarre discrepency. One asserts that condoms work, and its ok to avoid pozzies because our recklessness represents a dangerous disposition. The other reminds us that condoms have failings, and that it is therefore ok to avoid HIV+ people because of our dangerous disposition. The fact that that these opinions are contrary to each other establishes that at least one of them must be wrong. It seems that in the wacky world of queerty, the only constant is the notion that pozzies need to be isolated for the good of society.
I disagree with all points. HIV+ status does not always show a lack of perspective that work that is unique to MOST gay men. Those with the virus are not walking biological weapons whose avoidance is a necessary evil.
Condoms work, but only when you know to use them. Obviously, the 20 somethings David has been in contact with from Adam4adam never had the very convenient forewarning that their partners were poz. Their admission is designed to give you a heads up to protect yourself, not to exclude them. What they have done in being honest is PROVE a level of integrity that you can only hope for with guys who say they’re negative.
As for Mike, I don’t even know where to begin. As I’ve repeatedly said, one of the worst things about living with HIV is that many of those with a public’s ear regarding HIV issues seem to be stuck in the eighties. The very real issues that confront us are ignored in favor of concerns that, frankly, are history. In this case, your preoccupation with the exceedingly unlikely chance of infection resulting from disclosing, treated pozzies who use condoms results in discrimination. Condoms do break, etc, but antiretrovirals have been conclusively proven to lower infectivity. Some studies say there is a 94% reduction. Others, such as the famous Swiss Statement, indicate that they eliminate it entirely. I’ve never heard of an anecdote in which an effectively treated pozzie transmitted the virus, though I personally wouldn’t be comfortable BB topping anyone who was presumed negative. I’m sure your next response is that “sometimes treatments fail”, and that is true, but most treatments-notably Atripla which 80% of newly diagnosed people are placed on-are exceedingly difficult to mess up. In a randomized trial called the FOTO Study, participants were able to maintain viral suppression even if they intentionally skipped their dosage two days out of the week. Because mistakes mappen, some of those who skipped doses found themselves missing THREE out of seven doses in a week. They still suppressed their viral load. To endure a viral breakthrough of any risk, one would effectively have to turn themself into a suicide bomb, at which point the entire issue of disclosure is moot anyways as people that crazy probably just lie about their status and avoid the meds entirely. The liklihood of infection resulting from a condom breaking AND treatment failure coinciding is almost certainly lower than the liklihood of a condom breaking with someone who doesn’t know or lies about their status. Ironically, someone who is effectively treated- the majority of newly diagnosed people with access to healthcare-is probably LESS infectious than the average “negative” partner whose status is really only valid as of three months prior to their last test. This has been explained to you NUMEROUS times, and yet you continue to mislead people who have never had the benefit of firsthand exposure you have had. You validate their feelings that serodiscrimination is a way to “take control” when it is really anything but. It is for reasons like this that many who are newly diagnosed make the observation that a large portion of the HIV+ community clearly enjoys the stigma and discrimination it endures.
Finally, hilariously, Jimmy Fury chimes in that this is not “discrimination”, it is his right to choose. Obviously, he’s confused about what discrimination is:
“treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit”. Go ahead everyone, check dictionary.com youself if you don’t believe me.
Choosing to avoid people who admit to being HIV+ because you assume they’ve made “bad decisions” when they’ve shown a willingness to disregard their pleasure for your benefit, or because you incorrectly believe that they pose a danger that is disproportionate to that posed by your overall sexual pool is in fact discriminatory. I’m sorry if this categorization offends your precious sense of self-determination, but the wording is accurate and fair. Far more fair than the politically correct term “sero-sorting” which plays up the element of “choice” in avoiding people with HIV as though the virus were as obvious as build or mannerisms.
Therein lies the pivotal issue with this “choice”-it is not rational. It is an exclusion based on whether or not someone is honest enough to tell you their status, to seek out treatment that will dramatically reduce or eliminate the contagiousness of their virus, and to show some regard for your own “right to choose”, however idiotic it may be. We all make awful decisions, but choosing to discriminate against these people-whether socially or sexually-only ensures that your dance card will have a greater representation of people who lie, don’t care or have simply never learned a hard lesson. You’ve discriminated against the only people who, by their actions, have proven a commitment to honesty and real disclosure. The world-and your health-is worse for your decision.
M-GLEN
Most poz’s got the disease because they were careless. MOST. Those people can’t be “discriminated” against because they only have themselves to blame. Using the word discrimination for them is offensive to everyone who’s done nothing wrong, and who tries to live their lives well and as safely as possible.
Andy
@M-GLEN: Well, if that’s the case no one in their right mind should get the test. Either there was never an act of “carelessness”-in which case ittime waste of time, or there was, in which case taking the test is basically an act of altruism that benefits, above all else, other careless people while it turns people who get tested into lepers. You saw it here first people. Avoid the test.
Hyhybt
@Andy: In your first case, you’re ignoring the difference between MOST and ALL. That MOST cases are from carelessness (if that’s entirely true) does not mean that those who are always careful are totally safe. And the second ignores the benefit of treatment, ranking ease of finding sex partners at the moment above living perhaps decades longer.
Which isn’t to say that many don’t do exactly as you say.
Jay
After reading this, I am for once in my life at a loss for words. I am a 28 years old and positive. I moved to NYC in January of last year and found out a month later. I have always been safe and made a bad decision to not wear protection once. I regret it more than anything and I will live with it for the rest of my life. For me, it has been difficult. Not because I feel that my health will take a turn for the worse, but because I’m scared of the reactions that I have read on here. I consider myself a strong, intelligent person that works hard and loves people. Not all of us that are positive go around barebacking or having sex without being responsible and telling our partner. I made the mistake once and have learned from it. I respect everyone’s opinion on whether they will or will not date someone that is HIV+. The only thing I want is for people to educate themselves and to treat everyone with respect. As gay men, we have all been discriminated against. We all know what it feels like and we shouldn’t do the same.
Andy
@Jay: Dude, if HIV teaches you nothing else, you will learn that gay men aren’t nearly as disenfranchised as you once believed, and rarely use their experiences to treat others with respect.
ddsda
I do not date men that are HIV positive and have had may friends and relatives die from AIDS if you cant understand why maybe you should consider that I do not want to have to worry about it or be exposed to that kind of risk.
Andy
You’re already exposed. 1 in five gay men is poz. half of them don’t know it. Exposure is everywhere. If you’re a typically active gay man, you’re been exposed whether you like it or not. In choosing to discriminate, all you’ve done is filtered out the poz people who pose almost no risk whatsoever. mathematically speaking, you’ve increased your risk.
iamonpozvibrations
Where would earth be without dirt?
Where would humanity be without dirt?
What would we eat without dirt? Each others asses? Treating people like dirt is an unfortunate trait not confined to the gay world.
So your HIV+? Big deal look at the way we all treat each other, for a break from the nasty gay Neggies who are treated no more like dirt by some heterosexual people Google Pozvibrations