All methodologies have drawbacks. The more rigorous you get, the further removed you get from real life. We followed more of a real-life model than a hyper-controlled experimental model. We think the results challenge the reigning mindset that change is impossible or is extraordinarily rare.
Wheaton College provost Dr. Stanton Jones defending his new study suggesting sexual-orientation change is possible. The APA dismissed his findings as “unpersuasive” because Jones didn’t use control groups or a laboratory model with his 98 subjects.
Little Kiwi
the entire ex-gay movement is an insult to human decency
you have to stupid religious angle, wherein these people insist that “letting Jesus into your heart” (barf) will make you straight, and that prayer will work.
which is actually saying this: “God doesn’t care that someone’s 6 year old died from leukemia today, because He was too busy making some sad Christian gay boys develop a taste for pussy”
literally. God won’t cure cancers, stop world wars, save the millions of malnourished children who are dying around the world, yet somehow finds it vitally necessary to make some gay dudes born into anti-gay Christian families give up their hardwired desire to suck cock? nice. what next, saying that despite the fact that no natural disasters rocked germany in the 40’s as more than 6 million Jews were exterminated God has decided that “he really hates gay marriage in America” and is making earthquakes happen?
oh….wait…
there’s even the “hypotherapy” course for some – they try to hypnotize the person into no longer acting or, on even feeling, their “unwanted same-sex desires”….because that makes sense. you know, as opposed to using hyponsis to help you get over your NOT WANTING your “same-sex desires.” What a waste of effort. Work on your internalized homophobia, not magic prayers to change your biology.
Michael
@Little Kiwi:
*sighs* Here goes the positive tolerant approach with you.
First of all your comments make it seem as if you HATE Christians.
I have plenty of Christian friends and they preach love and acceptance I love them with all of my heart and soul.Not all of them are bad which I have an inkling that you already know this truth.
Secondly surprise surprise I agree with you hell just officially froze over AGAIN lmao
Im atheist so therefore I do not believe in an entity called God.I do however believe in Karma.
Lastly ive spoke to someone actually recently on YT who claimed he USED to be gay.
I talked to him until I could not take it anymore.He continuously claimed that he was in love with this girl and was soon to be married to her.He was speaking to me as if I was a sinner for being gay and that I should repent. I told him I was happy with someone I loved ( even though you do not believe that ) .He told me God could make me feel whole and a whole load of other bullshit.I spoke to him weeks ago havent spoke to him since then.He claims he is straight Christian no longer has the desire for other men.
But ive heard this bs before and it always end in sadness isolation and living an unhappy life never being true to oneself.
Those reperative therapies also cause nothing but psychological and emotional damage.Many gay americans have taken their own lives after being brainwashed and subjected to the cruelty and mind fuck games that they play to convince them that they are straight.These practices are extremely irresponsible and most of all dangerous .
There has never been never will never is gay to straight.That is not scientifically much less logically possible.Only in the fictional world of a book tv show or movie is that ever possible.Otherwise it is just someone who is self hating self loathing insecure uncomfortable scared and confused.
christopher di spirito
I’m tired of gays and lesbians being studied and treated like lab rats by these doctors, scientists and psychiatrists in the so-called ex-gay or reparative movement.
At best, this is fringe science and extremely destructive. At worst, it leads to profound emotional and psychological damage — even suicide in some instances.
Let’s break it down. I can go out and fuck a woman but it in no way means I’m straight.
Little Kiwi
*I* am a Christian. United Church of Canada. On the forefront of LGBT Equality for decades and strong proponents of cultural inclusivity – that there are many worthy and valid paths in life; religion is not “needed” yet it here as an outlet for those that seek a spiritual component in life.
the ex-gay movement proves one thing for certain – that these people don’t actually have “faith” in their claimed religions, but actually only care about appeasing the fleshly mortals in their lives. how so? simple: they’re breaking the Ninth Commandment by claiming to no longer be gay/homosexual/same-sex attracted.
they break a Commandment, A COMMANDMENT, in order to appease the humans in their lives that obsessively focus on (mis)interpretations of scripture that in actual fact have nothing to do with “homosexuality” whatsoever.
To di spirito’s point, i boffed a few lasses before i Came Out in my teens. Didn’t make me straight nor even bi. it made me one committed closet-case.
look into the eyes of everyone who claims to be an ‘ex-gay’ and you’ll see a liar who has no trouble breaking God’s Ninth Commandment because they’re finally no longer receiving bigotry and shame from their family members.
fact.
Michael
@Little Kiwi:
Can’t see how you are a Christian and gay but whatever to each their own.
When I was Christian I found myself apologizing constantly for using bad language masturbating taking the lords name in vain which I now do a lot etc…..
It got to be too much responsibility so I was like fuck it I stopped believing in this shit a long ass time ago.Thats just me though.
Little Kiwi
I was raised in the United Church of Canada. With a lesbian minister. And actually a few members of our congregation were not even people who identify as “Christians”. It’s a humanist spirituality, modern knowledge of historical context – The Judeo-Christian bible actually has no mentions at all of “homosexuality” – knowledge of a little thing called “historical context” changes everything.
but remember, i’m a Christian that doesn’t believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. Many denominations operate on a “Do this or be damned” school of (non)thought. Not the UCC. It’s presented as an outlet for those who seek one, yet in no way does it claim to be necessary. No “one true faith”, no “punishments” for not “believing” – no dogma.
it’s also the second-largest religious denomination in Canada – which speaks volumes about Canada’s liberal social climate.
Michael
@Little Kiwi:
Okay.
Mr. Enemabag Jones
When this book first came out in 2007, these were the results of the 98 people:
15% of the sample group experienced complete resolution of their homosexual orientation and were converted to heterosexual attraction. In other words, these folks were saying, “I’m healed; I rarely experience homosexual desires and I enjoy a good sex life with my spouse (or am dating and am very attracted to my love interest).”
23% of the research subjects experienced “success via chastity.” These subjects reported that feelings of homosexual attraction are almost entirely gone and they no longer feel unduly tempted. They are confident of continuing progress. So, these folks were saying, “I’m healed; I rarely experience homosexual desires and I’m very content to enjoy healthy male and female relationships without necessarily trying to become ‘heterosexual.’ God may bring about further change in the future.”
29% of their subjects would be described as “continuing in the program.” They have experienced some diminishing of homosexual attraction, but their desires have not dramatically changed. They are hopeful and committed to the change process. These folks were saying, “It is still very much of a struggle and my sexual orientation has not changed a lot, but I am experiencing healing in many emotional ways and I am confident in the path I continue to pursue with Christ.”
<15% of the people offered non-responses. They were saying, "I have not changed my experience of sexual attraction at all. I'm discouraged and not doing much on this at the present. I still want to change, but maybe I need a different approach."
4% were classified as failure: confused. These people had no significant sexual orientation change and have given up on the change process. They do not know whether they will try to change in the future or go back into the gay lifestyle. They were confused.
8% of the people could be classified as failure: gay identity. These people have given up on the change process and re-embraced their gay identities.
Wow! Some results–15%, or 14.7 people now identified as straight. I doubt the “success” rate has increased much in 4 years.
Little Kiwi
what’s more interesting is WHY they’re seeking this “therapy”
literally.
Little Kiwi
this study basically says that Sexual Orientation is Religious in Nature.
how on EARTH are all of those non-Christians around the world heterosexuals if, apparently, one must LOVE CHRIST in order to be straight?
oh nutbags… you make me laugh.
Cam
So 15% TOLD him that they were dating people or attracted to opposite sex people. But he didn’t seek out any proof. Additionally, has anybody interviewed those people a few years later? Going back in the closet is a fairly common occurance ESPECIALLY among the type of people who would sign up for a study like this in the first place.
Little Kiwi
exactly, Cam. the fact that these people are want to “not be gay” due to the pressures of anti-gay family and communities always gets ignored.
MikeE
@Michael: Um, my husband and I were married by a United Church of Canada minister, IN the church itself. We had the reception with our 40 guests in the church’s meeting hall. Of course you can be Christian and gay. Absolutely nothing stops that from being true, there is no contradiction.
Please don’t assume that all Christians are of the “fake” variety: the ones who misquote the Bible, the ones who constantly tell others how to live their lives, the ones whose own financial gain is more important than giving and sharing with the poorest among us, the ones who would lie to advance their agenda. Those “fundamentalist” christians are NOT “Real” Christians. They are usurpers of the title.
Scott
I’ve asked this before, but it bears repeating. Why hasn’t anyone attempted to get a ballot issue in their state (where they can) to make reparative therapy illegal? It seems like a no brainer. I think you could easily get a majority vote, especially since every major medical and psychological association has deemed reparative therapy harmful. If I lived in a state where we had public ballot initiatives- I sure as hell would be working my ass off to make this harmful practice illegal. The added bonuses are it would likely cause a domino effect in other states, and it would put the anti-gay organizations on the defense and bring to light their true agendas.
Michael
@MikeE:
Unfortunately those are the kinds Ive basically met.I have friends thankfully that arent like that and I dont have anything against Christianity itself persay.Just more against certain kinds of people who represent Christianity that make the decent ones look bad by association.
Robert
Actually, he didn’t get 14 conversions. The number is at most 6, and is probably less than that. Possibly zero. (see explanation here: http://wakingupnow.com/blog/ex-gay-project-fails
In fact, the study’s authors acknowledged they couldn’t prove even a single “conversion.” In their own words:
“In short, the results do not prove that categorical change in sexual orientation is possible for everyone or anyone, but rather that meaningful shifts along a continuum that constitute real changes appear possible for some.”
Shannon1981
As someone who survived one of these horrific camps, I’ll say it again: POISON TO YOUR HEART,SOUL,and SANITY. End of discussion. You know what attempting this shit led me to? Multiple suicide attempts, stints in various mental institutions, years of drug abuse, a sham of a relationship with a man that was both psychologically and physically abusive, and a hatred of all things religious. Luckily, I’ve gotten past it with minimal damage. The hatred of religion remains, for it is the entity responsible for my own personal hell. Rational or not- irrelevant to me at this point. The only thing I can say is that I worked hard to get past letting my hatred of the institution bleed over onto all religious people, and, for the most part succeeded. This “doctor”(or whatever he claims to be) needs to have his license taken away and his head examined.
Bil
This is all bullshit. My church convinced me that I was an ex-gay and I just had to accept it. Their response was find a girl and get married. I knew two friends that did just that. They are as gay as ever and their wives and kids are miserable. I saw pictures of them recently and they lost all joy in their lives. I didn’t buy it and was “Let go” from under the Church’s protection. You can change your behavior, but you will always be Gay.
Syl
Wouldn’t it be great if we could burn people at the stake for crimes against science?
Yeah, science is always modifying and falsifying previous theories, and there shouldn’t be dogmatism within science-we need people to question, to test accepted explanations, etc.. But people who outright lie, who don’t even try to do real science and pass it off as Gospel, who make false claims like there being “hundreds of nobel-winning scientists who don’t believe in man-made global warming”, or that East Anglia emails showed anything more than scientists getting sloppy and frustrated, they need to fucking burn.
Riker
@Little Kiwi: I’m going to (surprisingly) agree with you here. If I were an omnipotent being, and humanity was doing something I didn’t like, I wouldn’t trust them to interpret something I may or may not have said thousands of years ago. I would go down and directly tell them “Hey, you see this? See it? Stop doing that.”
Enough with this ambiguous, passive-aggressive bullshit of sending hurricanes and earthquakes for humans to interpret.
Josh
Since we invited the transgender folks into our nomenclature, if they have their genitals surgically rearranged to realize their true inner sex why do we get so angry and bitter when a gay goes straight? Maybe the gay man’s inner heterosexual can likewise be changed.
Another thing that puzzles me is maybe we gay men are women trapped in a mans body and would feel greater joy and fulfillment with a surgical rearrangement. The sexual acts of a transgendered gay man are on the outside and inside acting like a heterosexual, I think. Anyone have a clear answer to this?