If 2 guys or girls want to get married then good for them. I have no problem with any homosexual relationship. I just do not want their ideals forced upon me. But I have yet to have a homosexual try to make me a homosexual.

But I have had plenty of religions try to make me believe what they want. I have friends who are homosexual and I could not give a crap that they like guy or girls.

I think that Justin looks to be a nice guy and that is what I see. It sounded like Justin and Brent were in love and I think the priest said a really disgusting and insensitive thing.

I would like to see what the priest would have said if it had of been someone he loved. I am catholic but I think homosexuals deserve the same rights as everybody else.

We should learn from the Ancient Greeks and their way of accepting homosexuals as part of the world. And the time will come when homosexuality is accepted. So people might as well get used to it.

You make this assertion despite having made no material arguments against any statements in this thread even in this latest post. Thus far, you’ve only made unsubstantiated claims. Even your claim that you can back-up your other claims with well-reasoned arguments is itself unsubstantiated since you haven’t even tried…

Instead we get a tirade with meaningless ad hominem attacks that do nothing to invalidate any of the statements of which you’ve been critical. I guess you have no choice but to resort exclusively to personal attacks and vague assertions though since it’s a little hard to validate information that is simply wrong.

Finally, the only thing I’m giving “bad press” to is the Mormon church and its defenders. You’re actually helping me with that quite nicely. For that, I thank you. :)

From all your other texts, it’s obvious that nothing could be said that would not cause a vindictive redress from either of you. It wouldn’t matter how well any argument was backed up or supported. (…and yes, I could.)

Both of your hearts are so filled with such hate and animosity towards anyone who disagrees, that you make the gay communities appear irrational and filled with vengence. You never can rise above spiteful retribution. Thus, you wallow in perpetual bitterness that can never abate. Yes, you smile, laugh and even mock, but your words show you both to be quite miserable people.

You want acceptance, but you are unaccepting.
You want justice, but neither of you are just.
You want to be understood, but you are not understanding.
You want to talk, but you don’t want to hear.
You want legitimacy, but you are both illegitmate.
You want tolerance, but most certainly, you are not tolerent.

You make the gays look terribly lop-sided with tongues that cut through concrete. You give bad press. You’re not being helpful.

We’ll let it go as soon as the Mormon church gives up its own hatefulness toward gays by not funding–or calling for their members to fund–anti-gay initiatives, by not preaching that homosexuality is evil, by making an effort to atone for all the damage they’ve done with anti-gay constitutional amendments and the like, and by otherwise butting out of our sex lives.

And while there may be nicer Mormons out there, the church is the most visible speaker for its members; its words and actions will reflect on those members unless they clearly speak up against the church if they believe it’s acting wrongly. I’m not expecting much of that though since, from what I understand, the church deals rather harshly with dissent.

Religious doctrine (or “lifestyles” as you put it) is no excuse for hatred, stripping people of their rights, or preventing them from getting those rights. When people are actively persecuting you for no rational reason and using propaganda and disinformation to convince others to do the same, it’s only natural to expect bitterness. Until they stop those things, there’s no way that they can be ignored without us (the persecuted) being trampled upon; that’s simply not going to happen. It seems to be *you* that has “much to learn about people” since you seem to think we live in some kind of fairytale land where people just kiss and make up with their attackers even as they’re being attacked.

First, the instigators need to drop their weapons and apologize with both words and actions; then we can talk. (I’m a realist though and I don’t expect the Mormon church to reverse itself on these issues anytime soon.)

Finally, it’s worth noting that you, yourself, have done nothing in three posts to try to explain or apologize for any of the disgusting actions of the Mormon church; instead, you’re just putting all the blame on gays and accusing people of presenting disinformation without explaining what the actual inaccuracies are.

I would LOVE to hear your examples that contradict Mark, and the facts he presented that you don’t believe are accurate. Better yet, what your understanding is of the Mountain Meadows massacre and what your sources are?

And, pardon me for asking, but why are you hanging out on a gay blog, arguing with gays and sympathizing with Mormons? Are you trying to excuse, or better yet, defend the church’s hateful actions? And for you to actually believe there wasn’t any electric shock therapy used on gays in the Mormon church is like believing there was no holocaust. Do some research.

I’m sure Mark and his family have bigger fish to fry, and would be glad to “move on” with their lives. The fact is, living in Utah with members of the church who treat gays as second class citizens is a slap in the face every day they walk out the door. I’m sure “letting go” of whatever hate they have is difficult to do, especially when those who profess to teach “love and tolerance” have interesting ways of showing it.

And by the way, this article was about Justin Utley’s music, and the unfortunate role his mormon faith had in his life. I applaud him for rising above the cards he was dealt and being a HUGE example for the gay community to follow.

You rock Justin.

-Sherri

You are fighting a battle you are ill equiped to fight. Worse yet, it is that kind of belligerance that feeds the fires of hate and never lets it go. You have much to learn about people.

I’m sure there are some bad mormons…as well as gays. Let go of your hate.

“The number of hate-crimes of violence against gays in the USA is near equal in number of those based on race.”

Race is #1 (appx 3500 cases last year)
Religion and sexual orientation are nearly tied as #2 and #3 (1500 and 1400 respectively).

Mormonism isn’t even on the radar of hate-crime violence because it rarely, if ever, happens, especially in comapison to other religions of the USA.

-Mark

You ever heard of the Mountain Meadows massacre? If not, you might want to look into it. That is just an early-church example of the Mormon’s way of treating non-believers. The church still has yet to apologize for that massacre that their leaders ordered on the innocent families, who they murdered. Those families were crossing the plains to California, and posed absolutely no threat other than being “gentiles”. After killing the men and women, the church then took the surviving children to raise in Mormon homes in order to “save their souls”. Drafts of letters penned by the church leaders in Salt Lake who ordered the massacre have been found by historical societies in Utah.

As far as you thinking the church is not out to “control” lives of others.. when was the last time you or someone you know tried to buy two glasses of wine with your dinner in Utah? Or, if you happen to be gay, try to purchase/rent a home in Utah, and be denied after the buyer and/or realtor finds out you’re gay, and realize its actually LEGAL to do that in Utah, and happens hundreds of times a year? Also, my uncle used to work for the church in their office building in downtown Salt Lake City as an accountant, and he was terminated based SOLEY on him being found “out” about his sexuality at work.

On the flip side, I don’t know anyone in Utah or seen any news story here about anyone being fired from their job or be denied housing for being Mormon. Why? Because its protected by the laws of Utah, by “Family Values” legislation and business partnerships, and protected heavily by the Mormon-controlled legislature.

The mere fact that the Mormon church leaders encouraged millions of dollars in donations to dissolve the marriages of thousands of California families who aren’t even Mormon is hateful.

Gay/lesbian/bisexual murder victims of hate-crimes make up more than HALF of the total hate-crime murders each year (hate crimes are based on race, religion, disability, and sexual orientation). The number of hate-crimes of violence against gays in the USA is near equal in number of those based on race.

I am the father of a gay son. We live in Utah. We are not Mormon. We have moved our son to 3 different high schools. At the second high school, he came home, having been beat up behind a church-owned seminary by Mormon school kids, because my son and his friends (both straight and gay) held a rally after school about Prop 8. This made our local news at 5pm, but went largely ignored afterward. We could also not report it as a hate-crime since Utah DOESN’T HAVE ANY.

I know plenty of Mormons who are nice and polite who say they practice “tolerance” of those who aren’t of their faith. Yet, it seems they’ve always got a different agenda behind their backs or up their sleeves which forces their beliefs onto those who are not of their faith.

There are hundreds of examples and news stories and obituaries each year about gays in the USA who have been harassed, beaten, and murdered just because of their sexual orientation. A small handful (if any) against Mormons.

I recommend you do some research before you comment next time. Here’s some light reading for you about gay violence in another country:

http://nymag.com/news/features/59695/

Try searching for stories like this about Mormons.

Mark

And yes, they are ‘nice warm fuzzy family’ people. They just have a different lifestyle that they have been protecting for ages.

And no, I don’t think they are purposely trying to ‘control’ our lives as much as they are trying to preserve the lifestyle they already have.

I feel there’s too much bitterness and hatefulness…the very things of which the gay community accuses them of being. Let it go!

And the Mormons will always play the “persecuted” and “victim” card whenever they are called out on the kind of crap they pull when they use their money and ranks to influence politics in their favor, in order to get control of the lives of their non-believing “brothers and sisters”. What a nice warm fuzzy family feeling.

This whole conversation reminds me of the likes of Jessie Jackson or Louis Farrakhan who will never allow the negro race to be free from slavery because they will never allow them to move on and away from the past. The bitterness is kept stirred and smoldering. These outspoken people keep bitterness held close which curtails their people’s advancement and keeps them (the outspoken) in power/control.

In others words, reckless bitterness slows the entire process down.

“Looks like Satan has you gays right where he wants you. You gays will suffer but not by me. When god says it is wrong, it is wrong.”

This is an empty dismissal. I presented a detailed rebuttal of certain claims, and received nothing but insults and obscenity in return. The level of abusiveness in post 105 indicates spiritual bankruptcy.

“I read the King James version not the washed down any other version. It is more difficult to read (takes more intelligence) and it’s english is better translated.”

No, the KJV is not better translated that other translations. Considerable liberties were taken with the KJV version.

Further someone who has made so many grammatical, punctuation and capitalization errors is a poor judge of the quality of any text, or the intelligence required to understand said text.

I read the King James version not the washed down any other version. It is more difficult to read (takes more intelligence) and it’s english is better translated.

When we die and stand before God, He will show us all of our sins and judge us to where we will dwell for all eternity, then will we feel sorry for what we did not repent from while we were on earth.

I promise you we will know the truth in the next life if you don’t know it or don’t believe it.

THE TRUTH HURTS!

It includes oral sex, regardless of the genders involved – if you have performed oral sex, or received it, you’ve engaged in sodomy. It includes anal sex between a man and a woman, a form of birth control very popular in many Catholic Latin American countries.

It would help you if you acquired more than a 4th grade education in human sexuality, and religion, before you made pronouncements about other people’s lives.

But, the link between sodom and sex is a false one, and the true sodomites are those who persecute and oppress others, particularly as a means of acquiring or protecting material wealth and political power.

Like the hierarchies and some of the members of two particular religious denominations . . .

First, I can’t repeat your id, it isn’t accurate.

Second, Sodom was not destroyed over homosexuality, even if some of the people had intended rape, which is the least likely scenario.

Ezekiel makes it very clear why Sodom was destroyed:
“Ezekiel 16:49-52 (New International Version)

49 ” ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

This passage comes from a lengthy diatribe in which God accuses Jerusalem of idolatry, using prostitution and adultery as metaphors. In it, God accuses Jerusalem’s people of human sacrifice:

“21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them [e] to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution”

“36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your wealth [g] and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood,”

The reference to ‘detestable things’ in verse 50 uses the same hebrew word used in verses 22 and 36 to describe human sacrifice. It is not a synonym for homosexuality, even if you think same-sex lovemaking is detestable.

God is actually condemning something you are doing – sacrificing the physical, emotional, spiritual well-being of other people to appease your personal vision of god.

Jewish tradition does not support your claim either.
http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
“Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders. Saying “God killed them because they were gay” is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject. ”

One classical Jewish text on that source draws a direct connection between a specific act of torture on the part of the people of Sodom, and the text in the Torah itself.

The true heirs of Sodom are anyone, any organization, including the LDS and the RCC, that persecute and oppress other people.

@boy scout 1111: Argument by popularity or majority is fallacious. You say that most gays are unreligious and declare it wrong (by implication) while declaring that most people are straight therefore it’s right/superior by virtue of that “most” (a contradiction). You might want to look up the terms “argumentum ad populum” and “tyranny of the majority”.

Your alcoholism analogy is a joke. Alcoholism is not an immutable trait (like being gay; you can choose to marry a woman, but you will still be gay) nor are you born an alcoholic. Not to mention you picked something viewed negatively. Try another: People with blue eyes are in the minority and therefore abnormal. Should we legislate against them getting married? Give me a break.

And I will help others. I will read (the rest of) your book of mythology eventually. However, I won’t base my life around dictates of that mythology or debase others because of it. I define my own sense of right; a story doesn’t decide it for me.

The adulterers aren’t getting stoned to death; when adulterers start receiving the punishment proscribed for them (for a “sin” much more often cited in your precious book and even prohibited in the Ten Commandments and, thus, presumably a more serious offense) then maybe I’ll take you a little seriously. It seems that most “believers” like to ignore all the inconvenient parts of the book that apply to themselves or a majority of their peers and instead attack minorities because they can easily do so.

“Of all creatures on the earth, you gays do this.” doesn’t tell me anything and sounds like psychobabble. As far as I can tell, the only basis for you’re “It’s not right and you know it” is a book “written” by a fictional divinity.

And homosexuality has been demonstrated in other animals. Please do some fact-checking before you make baseless assertions.

The rest of your post is just a rant about “God this…” and “God that…” which is totally irrelevant to anyone who doesn’t subscribe to your religion. (Funny though how you act like your god is powerless to stop this devil; so much for all-powerful and all-relevant.)

@normal american: As long as the adults were consenting and fully aware of their actions and these actions had no tangible negative impact on bystanders, I don’t really care (and don’t watch Oprah).

And how can you accuse someone of ignoring a comment before you have even posted it (comment #98)? That’s ridiculous.

“Sick”, “perverted”, “faggots”, “anti-human” doesn’t sound like the love you claim in the name of your god. And, again, what is this punishment? A fictional Hell? And America is *not* gay. It just has gay people in it (like everywhere else) and they’re not going away “whether you like it or not”.

It is their own business. Not my cup of tea, but it is indeed their own business and I don’t plan to legislate against such people. (I don’t think you really care about that though; you just want to insinuate that being gay is akin to something widely viewed as strongly distasteful. Sad how you people have no real arguments.) It looks like incest is on its way toward becoming fully legal too if Mississippi is any indication.

No, you’re telling us what a book says (and vaguely at that). You’re not giving anyone any reason to value what you say other than your own religious beliefs (which isn’t a practical reason).

You think I hate but you chose to ignore my last comment #98.

Just because I don’t like what faggots do sexually, dosen’t mean I hate them just their anti-human actions. They are still people. God is just will punish you and all that do what you do. I know America is not gay.

Here is a thought exercise: imagine your brother,sister having sex with your dad or mom. How about your mom or dad having sex with your grandpa or grandma. What they do as adults in the bedroom is their bussiness.

I don’t have bible rage just telling you what our father in heaven has said about your actions in life. Hey the truth hurts.

Normal American: I can cite you countless examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. That’s beside the point. You’re trying to condemn what two consenting adults choose to do in their own home, using God as your excuse for hatred. If God is punishing the entirety America for something a small percentage of the individuals living there choose to do he seems kind of petty and a really bad aim, don’t you think?

Instead of succumbing to bible-rage I suggest you try a thought exercise. Imagine gay people as living breathing humans with dreams, goals, families, and feelings. Imagine your son, brother, or father is gay and consider showing them love rather than disgust and fear. You never know, maybe someone close to you is gay.

You’re awesome Justin, can’t wait to grab dinner the next time you’re in Utah!

My wife does wear pants and shorts (and she looks good in them thank you). I was taught that whatever we consent in the bedroom between us as a married couple with love is ok. My wife is a strong intelligent woman who is independent. We share basic beliefs and lifestyles. We teach our four children what we belive and know to be true. I’m sure you do the same. I have been taught and belive that in the next life, the gospel of Jesus is taught to all souls. That way we all have a chance to hear and accept or reject it. Whomever I am bound to in holy matrimony on this earth is who I will be bound to for all eternity. I have been taught and believe that whatever I learn about I should still go to my Heavenly Father and ask Him is true or false (that includes prophets).

My christian faith teaches that once we have the gospel, we should share it. That includes teaching and reminding others to repent. We as humans should all repent from our sins. Aren’t you doing the same? Sharing what you think and belive?

Do you think if you shared your personal beliefs to others, people would agree with you? Not everybody. As I stated at the end of comment 88, it’s all opinion. What are your personal beliefs on god and personal accountability? Do you believe you have to answer to a higher power for your actions on this earth? I am curious to know if you would like to share it.

..Which is an interesting statement to make beings that I know a few girls from BYU who engaged in anal sex (and still do now that they’re married).

I think you just proved Justin’s point. And for the record, assuming you’re gay isn’t a “judgment”. Its an assumption, especially based upon the fact you’re posting on a gay blog after midnight. What were you searching on MSN? Hunky Ex Mormon Leaves the Church?

Call it a hunch, but I think you’re the one calling Justin to “repentance”, which isn’t your job or your religion’s, especially since your god and your religion is one of the smallest factions of beliefs, and represents a drop in the bucket compared to the billions of people and thousands of religions that are bigger than mormonism.

And I hope your wife is happy being polygamist in the afterlife. Just sayin is all. Especially since she won’t have a say in it.

Peace.

I sounds like you were judging me that I was gay. I have noticed that people that don’t want to be judged usually do alot of the judging. No one is born perfect. Only Jesus. We can become perfected through the eternities.

For me to read teachings against my heavenly father, I will not do.

But hey,I am no better than you. You feel good about what you are doing. Do good unto others.
At least you are sharing your talents.

If your neighborhood was invaded with crime, wouldn’t you get involved to stop it? Or would you stand by and say, “I won’t get involved. My house hasn’t gotten broken into.” It is good to see an organization stand for good and participate. Like I have said many times on this site. WE ALL PAY FOR OUR CHOICES! GOOD OR BAD!

I’d like to address a few things. In no way do I spew hatred or angst at organizations (religious or otherwise) that don’t agree with my rights or opinions (since doing so is stepping to a level of pointless argument). My experience is what it is, as fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you take it) as it may be. If it causes a bad light to be shed on the religion, that is of no fault or action of mine.

I still share the same belief I did as a Mormon, that everyone should be allowed to “worship how, where, or what they may.” (LDS Articles of Faith). When an organization takes steps beyond its own congregations and attempts to control the public and private lives of those who are not participants, and when those non-participants have the same rights to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” that EVERYONE should enjoy in this country, that is when their behavior crosses the line into religious bigotry, especially in cases where the bible (or other religious text) is used as an excuse. That goes for Christianity and any other religion, and that is when I speak up. There is a reason our country is not a theocracy, and that the founders of it were keenly aware of that: for a religion to dictate the rights or freedoms of others, and for a majority to rule and trump the rights of a minority, it is oppression.

My experience with the Mormon church had some highlights (as many religions should have) for good. But I do not believe in the notions of the literal creation, Adam & Eve (and that the woman was to blame), divine right, earth flooding, black skin curses, discrimination, a chosen people, levels of heaven, secret rituals, crusades, gender inequality, prohibiting iced-tea, coffee, promoting polygamy (in this life of the next), donating time and millions of dollars to prevent two tax-paying adults from being legally recognized as married, was ever something God intended and is not inspired. Those are the stories and writings and inventions of man, a way to govern their people at that time, and an attempt to explain the unexplainable of their time.

When religions teach (albeit in a subtle, passive-aggressive context) that if you are anything but a white, heterosexual male, born into their faith, that you really aren’t as blessed, chosen, or as divinely-privileged, it is a breeding ground for an inequality-based standard of thinking which spreads like a disease. If a religion chooses to promote and teach that as doctrine, although it disappoints me, that is their right. But I have a right and duty to stand up and speak out when their teachings and actions encroach on my life, how I live it, who I can love, where I can live, where I can work, the influencing politics and politicians, and if I want to serve my country. When it oversteps the bounds religious freedom and into the realm of the rights and freedoms of citizens who do not belong to that religion or believe in the same God, it is wrong. ‘God’ created all men (and women) as equals. There are no amendments to that.

Let me add, for those out there who wish to be spiritually fed in an organized religion, there are many congregations out there, Jewish, Christian, and other faiths and congregations, that fully understand, embrace, appreciate, and carry that banner of equality. It may take some digging to find them in places like Utah, but they are there (plenty in New York City. Ha!).

Thank you again, Daniel, for the story, and for those of you who took time to read about my experience and exodus from the Mormon church. As far as my music is concerned, I am grateful it has been a mouthpiece of mine, and that those who enjoy what they hear who have let me know. I will be releasing a new single, called “Stand For Something”, this fall. I hope you all have a listen and appreciate its message.

To Boy Scout 111 and I AM A MORMON:

First off, I find it a little ‘queer’ that you are on a gay-themed blog in the first place. Having been a devout Mormon, I know the church leaders encourage those struggling with same-gender attraction problems to avoid hanging out on gay-themed sites. But, welcome, regardless. :) Secondly, if you choose to cover up who you are biologically (which is how ‘God’ created you), that is your choice. In the meantime, I encourage you to do some qualified reading outside the confines of your religious leaders suggestions. You will come to understand that sexuality is not an addiction (unlike an alcoholic, a sex-addict or drug-addict is). Your sexuality, like eye color, will not change, no matter how long you keep the contact lenses in. I pray that one day you will realize you are perfect just the way you are, and there is nothing abnormal about being gay, just like there is nothing abnormal about being Catholic or Agnositc.

-Justin Utley
justin.j.utley@gmail.com
http://www.JustinUtley.com

You believe that Adam & Eve are mythology. The “characters” in a mythical book the “Bible” have been an inspiration and guide to our government and to world civility. We, as humans, must be stupid to follow laws and order based on a mythical book (that includes you).
I don’t hate gay people. I just disagree (based on mythology) that having sex outside of marriage (my mythical god states is between a man and a woman). I don’t hate murderers. I disagree with the action that they take. I don’t hate liars. I just diagree with the action that they take. I don’t hate thieves. I disagree with the action that they take. I don’t hate child molesters. I just disagree on the action that they take.
If you believe you are born that way,you still choose to act upon those thoughts,feelings,compulsions and desires.
Scientists say we are predisposed to certain traits. They say it doesn’t mean we will act out those traits just have a much higher probability to do so.
Doctors say that I am predisposed to alcoholism (addiction). I did finaly make a choice and stopped acting upon my thoughts,feelings,compulsions, and desire to drink. So basicly I was born an alcoholic. Most of the world aren’t alcoholics. That is normal. A small percentage of the world are alcoholics, that is abnormal (that’s me). I have the right to drink. It is not against the law.

I don’t believe in science based evolution. I find it difficult to imagine that some goo ,after a big bang, has formed complex humans that can create an unlimited amount of things like technology and cities. Goo that has transformed, in time, to be able to build vehicals to travel out of our atmosephere and view the planet that created us from goo. I haven’t seen a monkey do that. I think it’s like a piece of metal laying on the ground and it evolving into a car that moves. Stones that will evolve into a building. Would that be so different? Aren’t the goo based humans the creators of such things? If humans can create the most complicated things, then it would stand to reason that someone created us? Why haven’t other creatures on this earth reached our complex level? I guess it will take millions, billions of years for that to happen.

Why are we here? Is there a reason? We evolve from goo and then die? That sucks! What is the purpose? Do you have an answer Pat or belief?

I like the story (you say myth) of a loving Father in Heaven (God) who created our spirits and gave us a plan of salvation. A loving Father who said you can choose to act any way you want. But remember, I want you to come back to me to live forever and give you everything I have to offer. I can’t make you. But I can guide you. If you follow me, we can be together and you can be just like me with no hate but love, power to create worlds and universes without end.
It may sound silly to others but I like that story and it makes me and my family happy.
Do what makes you happy. Help others. Don’t return hate.
Read good books, even mythical ones.
I’m not writing these things to convince others, just give my opinion (you know what they say about opinions).

Furthermore, I don’t think it’s wrong to speak words of disgust or hatred for people that routinely discriminate against you for no other reason than “I don’t like you.” This is no different than people denouncing racism, gender discrimination, or other unjust forms of expression that harm others without good reason.

@boy scout 1111: If people need to prove that being gay is an immutable trait, then it is only fitting that (presumed) straight people like yourself need to prove the same. Where is /your/ proof?

@boy scout 1111: I think better phrasing for your question would be: “Do you believe in the science-based concept of evolution or religious-based creationism?” Your phrasing is very disingenuous.