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The NAACP’s Lame Boat Metaphor to Rationalize Not Taking a Stand on Gay Marriage

NAACP Convention


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By:           editor editor
On:           Aug 5, 2009
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  • 225 Comments
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      I think the comment about “investing” in other communities is correct. Just being a member of a minority group does not mean you automatically support all minorities. You’ve still got to make sufficient social and political connections to convince people of the mutual benefit of getting each other’s back.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • wondermann
      wondermann

      @Anthony in Nashville: Agreed

      This is not a slap in the face. Most of us know it will take time to convince many in Black community that this is a major issue.

      Then with attacks on Obama from the white faces of the LGBT community, it’s not going to be an easy change to do. Again it will take time.

      Also, the gay community has not made the best efforts to include other communities of color in many of their efforts so it’s naive to think this going to be done in a couple of months.

      Plus to many LGBT people Gay marriage is not the BIG issue. Hate crimes and the discrimination act are far more realistic to many in our community.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      I especially like Jealous’ last statement about coming to the black community late in the Prop 8 battle. There is absolutely nothing wrong with canvasing and talking to and convincing black voters; treat the black voting bloc just like any other voting bloc. Don’t make assumptions about what any voting bloc will and won’t do or how they will vote.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • prissysissy
      prissysissy

      Lame excuses. Good leaders lead from the front and talk to their followers to try to change their minds.
      That is lacking in the NAACP currently.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      Well shit, it’s obvious! “God’s in the mix”, Anyone who’s familiar with the Black Community knows damned well that their main source of organization is the Baptist/Evangelical church. And the leaders who they put forward are almost all ministers. Their oficial position on gays is that they are sinners and that they should not even have jobs.

      Any metaphor that says anything else is just a lie and propaganda. We wonder why Obama walks on eggshells : those people are just as self righteous about being the only deserving minority as anyone can come: they hate Africans
      simply because they aren’t from slave stock and are’nt deserving..

      I’m sure they B.S about being concerned for gays for some kind of monitary concern.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      Queerty seems to forget that a LOT of the NAACP folks are VERY Religious and are having difficulty specifically with the marriage issue… Jealous even says that they have a stance on bullying, hate crimes, and employment non-discrimination so making some blanket statement like “gay activists should not have supported black civil rights in the 1950s and 60s (which, frankly, they did).” when clearly they’re being supportive they just have to work on one VERY contentious issue. I’m not giving the NAACP a pass since it seriously needs to do some work regarding changing minds regarding homophobia, transphobia and heterosexism within its ranks, but they have a point in that they shouldn’t destroy their organization by taking a stance in favor of gay-marriage before they’ve laid the groundwork to really issue that statement and mean it. We can’t keep dismissing people who are decent and would like to aid in our struggle but are having issues with deeply held personal beliefs. We have to make them see the civil rights issue at hand and help them overcome their prejudices instead of immediately writing them off when they aren’t progressing fast enough…

      Also, using “lame” is ableist, offensive to the disabled and should be avoided…

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      Yes, of course, we should have to educate and convince the black community that equality is fair. Makes complete and perfect sense.

      And gay marriage is important to to the GLBT community. There is not one issue, not one…not work protection, not hate crime, not DADT not one issue facing the gay community that levels the playing field as quickly and fairly as marriage equality. Once we achieve marriage equality. Within that one issue lay over 1000 rights and benefits we are denied.

      And again, I love the comments and the tone of this article…it’s the responsibility of the gay community to be inclusive. It’s not the responsibility of other communities to work at GLBT inclusion…we’re the ones that have to go to them. Bullshit. It’s a two-way street. Gay issues didn’t just suddenly start appearing since the 60’s. There have always been gay equality issues. The struggle for Civil Rights isn’t any older or younger and only slightly different than the Civil Rights struggles of blacks, latinos and women.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      I meant to say:

      Jealous even says that they have a stance on bullying, hate crimes, and employment non-discrimination so making some blanket statement like “gay activists should not have supported black civil rights in the 1950s and 60s (which, frankly, they did)” is just stupid, when clearly the NAACP being supportive overall, they just have to work on one VERY contentious issue (marriage).

      I always forget to update things when I’m looking for a quote :-/

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @wondermann:

      “Then with attacks on Obama from the white faces of the LGBT community….”

      What a RACIST thing to say…AS IF blacks aren’t intelligent enough to separate the content of the criticism from the color of skin of the critic!

      There are PLENTY of black critics of Obama, including #3’s Chitown Kev, columnist Rod 2.0, members of the National Black Justice Coalition, and no one from the gay community with more credentials to criticize him than his own longtime personal friend and cochair of his LGBT campaign committee, Stampp Corbin.

      And not all of his black critics are gay: Congresswoman Maxine Waters and Congressman Alcee Hastings are just two examples. And, of course, Hastings has specifically called Obama out for not stopping DADT discharges.

      What a RACIST thing to say Part 2…AS IF those not black have no right to criticize him.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      And if you think that gay people haven’t made sufficient connections (and gay groups with the NAACP) yet, you’ve got your head up your ass.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @TANK:
      for you and Anthony in Nashville, really, define “sufficient connections”

      It can work both ways, you know. Few groups in the United States have more experience, casework, etc. in fighting civil rights battles than the NAACP. The gay community could be asking them for help not merely in terms of marriage equality endorsement but also in picking their brain a bit. (Lambda Legal is actually pretty close to the NAACP model actually, but with far fewer local chapters)

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Chitown Kev:

      But you don’t think they’ve done that? You don’t think members of gayinc have met with representatives of the naacp to talk strategy ever? You don’t think that gay inc and the naacp have worked together before, or that connections have been made between, say, the hrc and the naacp?

      Sure, more outreach needs to be done to the black community. Obviously–many white gays are racist. But let’s not act like big elements of the black community don’t need to get their acts together, and that homophobia and sexism aren’t big problems.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Now I’m not saying that homophobia and sexism aren’t big problems for whites, either. They are, obviously. Crippling. But not as big a problem. It’s a higher bar.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      And while I’m not claiming anyone here has said this, many people say that it is the responsibility of the oppressor group to educate themselves about their bigotry. I mean, if it were racism that was being discussed right now, I know a lot of people who would argue that it’s flatly racist to demand that black people educate white racists about their racism. So why, when it concerns gays, is it not homophobic?

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • wondermann
      wondermann

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com: Stop with the racist statement. It was not racist. The majority of LGBT community of color does not agree with the Obama haterade.

      And yes, the images do hurt our cause. There have been several articles written by LGBT folks of color seeing the same thing

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @TANK:

      But have the connections been sufficient is my question.

      But I have to say though, that black communities aren’t funding anti-gay initiatives. That would be white religious organizations doing that. Admittedly, a majority of black people are voting for those initiatives (and paying off many of these black pastors, I believe). If it weren’t for white (religious) people, the shit wouldn’t be appearing on ballots in the first place.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @Chitown Kev:

      I’m talking about personal relationships more so than business/financial ones. Not that it is a guarantee that people who know gay people won’t be homophobic, but I do think you are more likely to look at things from an open minded perspective if you know a member of that group.

      That’s why I think Jealous was on point about “long term conversations” and the error of gay groups coming to the black community late.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Chitown Kev:

      That’s interesting. It’s plausible, too–that black pastors are in the pocket of big [white] church. And yeah, it is largely white gay religious groups who get the ball rolling. But they’re capitalizing on an undercurrent of sexist values and traidtions in fomenting hostilities amongst their congregants. They’re saying something that’s connecting with them in a big way.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @wondermann:

      I wouldn’t go so far as to say that yours (or Michael’s) statement was racist, wondermann. But there are plenty of POC’s of color that are critical of Obama’s handling of LGBT issues (add Pam Spaulding and Irene Monroe into that mix)

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @Chitown Kev:

      I also agree that gay organizations could utilize the experience of the NAACP in terms of crafting strategy. I think it would give the analogies between the Civil Rights Movement and gay rights more substance if, say, HRC, modeled itself after the NAACP.

      Perhaps some are already doing that, I do not know.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @TANK:

      ANd that’s a part of the broader cultural influences that are mainstream.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      The argument within the “black community” is about RELIGION. Divisive religion. That’s ALL it is. The rest of this crap is just old-fashioned bull shit.

      The problem is people simply don’t have the “religion” conversation and FINALLY come to terms with the Homosexual Lie. The NAACP, just like every religion in the World, should have the debate and then vote – yes or no about homosexuals.

      Until this happens homosexuals are NOT getting Equality. Even the NAACP – a revered civil rights organization (that should know better) CANNOT support our plight…. BECAUSE OF RELIGION.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nizara
      Nizara

      When the head of NAACP was on Bill Maher show and Bill went into a speech about Obama saying that “the audacity of hope” is past –
      your voters are now “hoping for (Obama to have) a little more audacity” — I thought the NAACP dude was gonna suffer a burst aneurism right there. Dude wasn’t smiling — lord forbid anybody criticize the Messiah in Chief. fuck em all

      Aug 5, 2009 at 2:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Mike #7 said: Yes, of course, we should have to educate and convince the black community that equality is fair. Makes complete and perfect sense.

      Is this an oxymoron? Obama’s parent’s marriage was illegal in how many states when he was born? and on and on and on.

      Minorities should not have to be educated on what is fair since they know what it is like to be treated unfairly.

      On the other hand, I’ll contradict myself by saying in the last 40 years anyhow, this country has a grand tradition of letting people hide behind religion (or be deluded by it) when it comes to civil rights.

      Not saying people aren’t sincere about their religions, but their sincerity doesn’t trump my or anyone else’s RIGHTS. Funny how so many people voted to amend State constitutions to ban same sex marriage. A really small “problem” in the scheme of things… wonder why those same Constitutions couldn’t be amended to guarantee food, housing & health insurance FOR ALL…

      Aug 5, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Forrest
      Forrest

      The NAACP statement alone shows how much work is needed. There is no “black community”, why did Jealous not say the “black straight community”? “Gay” to him and so many others still equals rich white men from NY or SF. This tired mindset does nothing but contribute to keeping so many black LGBTs buried in the closet.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 3:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay

      On the ballot it said Proposition 8 would take away the rights of gay people in clear language. The heterosexuals who voted for Prop 8 knew what they were doing. Don’t talk about outreach when almost all referendums do not have an 8 month campaign on television, mail and phone. People knew what they were doing taking away gay people’s right to marry.

      There is no equivalence between the everpresent anti-bigotry with heterosexuals, black or otherwise, and that of marginal racism within the gay community. I have yet to read a story where a black person was killed by a gay person for being black. I have read many stories of black heterosexuals killing gay people. The whole “white gay people are racist” meme is meant to marginalize gay people even further and deflect attention away from many black heterosexuals’ anti-gay bigotry. Some black gay people rather cover up the anti-gay bigotry of black heterosexuals and accuse white gay people of racism than actually confront anti-gay bigotry from their community.

      I ain’t waiting a second longer to get my rights. I’m an American.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 3:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @AlwaysGay: There is no right to homosexual marriage

      And you already have a right to traditional marriage.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      Contrary to longstanding myth, the NAACP was NOT at the center of the “modern” black civil rights movement identified with Martin Luther King, Jr., and, at least as it existed then, should NOT be the model for today’s LGBT rights movement. If anything, the criticisms leveled at them at that time are the same leveled at some gay groups today: incrementalism and lack of cooperation with other gay groups simply to try to protect their own turf and donor bases.

      As the NAACP was then generally against mass mobilization and civil disobedience, King, et al., created entirely new organizations, including King’s Southern Christian Leadership Conference, whose charter was primarily written by gay Bayard Rustin, King’s tutor in Gandhian nonviolent civil disobedience, who had long before given up on hoping that the NAACP would seriously fight anywhere outside of a courtroom, and was determined to see them dethroned as the self-proclaimed owners of the movement.

      And, Roy Wilkins, the head of the NAACP, despite many achievements, was equally determined not to lose control; even enlisting the aid of rabidly homophobic black minister Adam Clayton Powell, who considered himself a powerbroker in the movement [as he was] and chose to effectively blackmail King into disassociating himself from Rustin [for a time] by threatening to publicly accuse King of having a homosexual affair with Rustin.

      [img]http://explorepahistory.com/images/ExplorePAHistory-a0k1h7-a_349.jpg[/img]
      Rustin at far left; Wilkins at head of table; then King.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Forrest
      Forrest

      @youcanthandlethetruth:

      You have no rights to that either. Nothing called “traditional marriage” is in the law. It’s wholly a secular arrangement codified by the state. Christian Talabanists like yourself have wet dreams about installing a theocracy. But as society evolves over a dozen states, Canada, much of Western Europe, and South Africa continue to prove you wrong.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      Hmmmm…

      Right after Prop 8 passed, I would have disagreed with you. Now I would say that yes, SOME white gay people are racist and that some in the straight black community have used accounts of the racist reaction to Prop 8 as an excuse for homophobia by painting the entire gay community as racist.

      Were most straight black people more supportive of the gays in their own black communities, the constant labeling of white gays as “racist” would make sense.

      Now when I encounter black straight people in real life or online spouting the same meme, I listen or read for how much knowledge the individual actually have of the gay community or how they react when I present evidence that counters the point they are making. If the straight black person doesn’t know anything beyond, say, Harvey Milk or what anyone can see in a gay pride parade, or if they ask no followup questions to the evidence I present to them, then it’s a safe bet that they’re homophobic and I treat them accordingly.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Forrest: Actually Loving v Virginia ruled marriage – between one man and one woman – was a right.

      Not sure what the “Christian Taliban” means?

      Can we call GLAAD the “homosexual Taliban” or would that be considered offensive?

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com:

      Well, the NAACP primarily was (and still is to a large extent) a legal advocacy organization much like Lambda Legal. The NAACP laid a lot of the legal foundation for black civil rights whereas the SCLC was more based in grassroots organizing. And you are right about the turf wars between Wilkins and King. (The NAACP was very averse to grassroots organizing, though some chapters–including the NAACP in Montgomery, Alabama–did do grassroots organizing).

      But you know you don’t have to tell me (or Anthony in Nashville, I suspect) much about this history but it’s good for everyone to know.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      Would someone take the self-loathing closet case who can’t handle the truth about him/herself to bed?!

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @AlwaysGay: Marginal racism my ass, just because black people don’t get murdered by gay people all the time doesn’t mean they aren’t racist, it just means they don’t express that racism in a violent manner. Black gay people pointing out white gay racism isn’t to deflect criticism of the straight “black community”, it’s to raise a legitimate issue within the LGBT “community”. You even trying to dismiss the legitimate issue of racism in the LGBT community shows your (assumed) white privilege because you can choose to ignore it. The LGBT community is greatly segregated along racial lines and that is a fact. Just go back to November and read some of the racist hateful comments after that (Bullshit) CNN Poll on the Black Prop 8 vote. Look at the face of the LGBT community and you will generally see white male faces put forward. There are separate Pride celebrations and clubs because Black LGBT people don’t feel welcomed and are tokenized or fetishized/hypersexualized by the larger white LGBT community. Being black you are born into a community that will support you when the rest of the world denies your value… I can see why some black people wouldn’t want to risk that by coming out and losing that community just to be ignored by an LGBT community that barely acknowledges your existence (white LGBT folks are just as guilty of erasure as straight Black folks). I am not one of those people and I have called people in the black community out on their homophobia and let them see me as their neighbor and friend as opposed to them fearing some abstract concepts of white male homosexuality.

      Struggles take time and effort and just whining like a petulant child when you don’t get your way immediately won’t get anything accomplished. We have to work WITH people instead of being dismissive and bitchy if we want to continue to make progress. You’re (presumably) a white male American which means you’re used to getting your way and being in charge. So once you found out you were gay and came out, you were knocked down a peg by society, so you want that undeserved privilege back without having to wait for it. Sexuality is a hidden minority that you often don’t know when you’re born, while your race isn’t, that’s no excuse to discriminate against one minority more than another, but it does give you a certain perspective…

      @youcanthandlethetruth: We have a right to equal protection under the law, and if the law isn’t going to be modified to treat all citizens and their families equitably and fairly, no marriage law/benefits should be in place at all. Please leave you annoying troll.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @KD108:

      Now, I am comfortable with black gay people saying this. I am not comfortable when black straight people make this claim.

      And to be perfectly honest, I don’t think that the color of the faces that are put forward by the LGBT community would make a damn bit of difference to those in the black straight community that are already inclined to be anti-gay. After all, they look at plenty of black gay faces every Sunday morning.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @KD108:

      Let me add that what really pisses me off personally about some white gay folks is that it seems as if many get so incensed about black homophobia yet I don’t see what type of power that the straight homophobic black community has over them. Black religious and secular groups aren’t funding anti-gay ballot initiatives, that would be predominately “white” denominations like the Mormons, the Catholic Church, and white evangelicals.

      I am probably far more vulnerable to the effects of anti-gay sentiment in the black community than the overwhelming number of gay white folks.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @Chitown Kev: I think the color of the faces put forward by our movement does make a difference. The gay faces they see in church every Sunday aren’t “out” for the most part or the congregation is ok with them as long as no one mentions the “dirty little secret”. If they saw out and open Black LGBT people and more people started talking about that open secret, they’d be forced to confront their homophobia since there’s no avoiding it. A lot of people have misconceptions about what it is to be LGBT so having positive media portrayals as well as connecting Black LGBT people to the face of the movement for LGBT civil rights would make an impact.

      The Black community as a whole needs to start having some serious conversations regarding the homophobia, transphobia, heterosexism and gender norms of our community so we can start making progress and stop skirting the issue on some b.s. religious grounds or arguments that homosexuality/transsexuality is a “white thing”. Having some black faces put forward would help shift that conversation in favor of acceptance.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @Chitown Kev: I completely agree with your second @Reply btw. If anything Black homophobia/transphobia effects Black LGBT people more than it will ever effect white LGBT folks. Also, white LGBT racism effects Black LGBT folks more than straight Black folks so they can’t use that argument to dance around the issue of homophobia either, not that I’ve really seen that happen as much as the other way around…

      Aug 5, 2009 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tricky ricky
      tricky ricky

      yes. the sturggle for gay rights is not the same as the struggle for right for blacks.

      THE STRUGGLE FOR GAY RIGHTS IS LIKE THE STRUGGLE FOR THE RIGHTS OF WITCHES NOT TO BE BURNED AT THE STAKE.

      GAYS AND WITCHES WERE BURNED AT THE STAKE, BLACKS WERE JUST PROPERTY.

      one must look at these things in the correct historical context.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      STOP making this a Black Vs. White conversation – that’s incredibly ignorant.

      The problem is RELIGION. The NAACP cannot agree on taking a stand for homosexuals because 60-70% of them believe “homosexuality is wrong.” Of course it’s a big argument “within the NAACP.” But, they better have it – and the suggestion that it may take a “few decades” shows how important they make us.

      Unfortunately, George Bush ruined the use of this phrase, but the sentiment is fitting . . .

      DEAR NAACP:

      YOU ARE EITHER WITH US
      OR YOU ARE AGAINST US

      Have a vote. Now. Either help us or go away.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      the trolls have come out now…thanks tricky ricky, in spite of the fact that millions of blacks never made it across the Atlantic Ocean to become property.

      By the way, queerty, it is a decent question, the article is pretty solid not the usual race-baiting shit. Of course, it takes little (or nothing) for the race baiting to start here.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • wondermann
      wondermann

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com: That would be you

      Aug 5, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Vancouverite
      Vancouverite

      @youcanthandlethetruth: Dear Scary Closeted Religious Zealot,

      When you fap to the Morning Goods, do you wear a hair shirt, or do you double yr pleasure & scourge yourself afterward?

      Signed,
      A hopeful supplicant

      Aug 5, 2009 at 6:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @wondermann:

      Invest in a mirror, cretin. You brought up race [#2] before I even posted.

      I don’t mind differences of opinion but I loathe stupidity and hypocrisy.

      Congratulations: you won both hats today.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @Chitown Kev:

      Kev hi!

      But it IS instigated non?

      Aug 5, 2009 at 6:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      36 · Chitown Kev The reason that White fundamentalist are funding these actions is that they have money. Also the initiativese.g . California are in big Mormon territory. That’s just simple. The last I checked the Southern (black )Baptist Convention (over 6 mill. members) made a whole list of explict anti-gay pronouncements- even that it was godly to TAKE OUR JOBS. I,m really familiar with the NAACP because my brother was an active member in Idaho (he’s white) but has had to quit because he has a lot of gay friends. Some years ago when I was getting out of the Univ. I was part of an effort o get Gay and Black groups to work together and the NAACP was officially claiming that we weren’t a minority even because or sexuality was a choice.
      I bhelieve that even Julian Bond held that position. I know that there is a large subculture of black gays and I see people all the time who are obviously gay in their communities .
      The situation is not unlike the way that the Catholic Church had such a strong hold on Irish People in Ireland and early
      indentured servants etc here. They had for centuries been
      undermined by British rule and the church gave them their only source of unity and identity.
      Same with Blacks here; when they feel that they have a part in trhis country-if it remains anything anyone wants to be a part of-they will begin to let go of that source of identity. But it is hard to get rid of the power hungry church leaders once no one needs them.
      I have run into almost no black leaders who don’t have a church connection. That’s what is happening to the NAACP.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 8:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jj
      jj

      “They came to the black community late, with the expectation that they were going to get certain results.”

      Yes, to expect a minority that has experience hatred to support equal rights for others seems a reasonable guess to me. This is just more of the “it’s the gays fault we voted the way we did”. Same old bullshit.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 9:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay

      @KD108: So let’s blame white gay people because they are more willing to come out and stand for their rights?

      The reason black gays have their own clubs and pride events is because of self segregation and an unwillingness to reveal their sexuality elsewhere. Most club goers at black gay clubs are closeted or label themselves bisexual or heterosexual. They want to keep it black and on the down low.

      I helped for four months on the NO on Prop 8 campaign even though I didn’t live in California. I read thousands of comments before and after the election, very few were racist. Questioning why black California voters voted the way they did is not racist.

      The reason I brought up the imbalance of violence is because racism from white gay people is not equivalent to anti-gay bigotry from black heterosexuals.

      @Chitown Kev: I am equally angered at anti-gay bigotry anywhere it comes from. The difference is whenever a black person makes an anti-gay comment or is discriminatory against gay people black gays defend them. Most black gay people are unwilling to confront anti-gay bigotry from black people. Black solidarity is their main concern. As long as that’s the case than anti-gay bigotry will go unchecked in the black community.

      If racial solidarity is your main concern, do it. Just don’t trash gay people who’s main concern are gay issues and expect to get away with it. Gay issues are my main concern and I will involve myself in anything having to do with it.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 9:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      More Queerty race baiting I see. Queerty never examines La Raza any Asian organization. But if the subject is African American you’d better watch out

      Aug 5, 2009 at 9:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Forrest
      Forrest

      @youcanthandlethetruth: Loving said nothing about “traditional marriage” because it does not exist. Marriage has continually evolved from being based on cattle to where it is today. If you believe in traditional marriage you should be all for the reenslavement of women and dowries. Recognizing our equal access to it is simply the next evolutionary step.

      And “traditional marriage” has so much to proud of with the divorce rate.

      Calling GLAAD the homosexual taliban would be offensive because they are not trying to discriminate against heterosexuals.

      Once again the Taliban treat women “traditionally”, holdouts from the Stone Age. You should go join them and would fit right in.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 10:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • wondermann
      wondermann

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com: Cretin… I like it.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 10:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ElectricDevil
      ElectricDevil

      @AlwaysGay:

      AlwaysGay

      Who’s blaming “white gays because they are more willing to come out”? People are merely mentioning the fact that people come from different lives with different perspectives and different experiences and race is a large factor. Its a factor that many whites seem to step over because they for some strange reason can’t see the natural racial advantages they have in this society. I’m sure if black gays had the same economic, social, educational security many white gays have, they’d come out in full force instead of relying on their “black part” of their community.

      See AlwaysGay, you’re completely focused on gay issues because your life gives you that opportunity. Millions of black gays are in poor to meager financial situations, stuck in inner city or southern communitys. In a way you could compare them to the situation that many southern/appalachian white gays are in. But because whites are so numerous and are in so many different lifestyle situations and have little negative stereotypes to hold them down, no one notices that the white gays who are open with their sexuality mostly live in urban enclaves with the financial backing given to them by their race and ancestry.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ElectricDevil
      ElectricDevil

      BTW, how many gay organizations have come out in favor of black reparations? I’m not saying I support it but I’m giving you guys a good equivalent to think about. I honestly doubt many white gays would be happy with GLAAD, HRC, and the rest coming out in favor of reparations for blacks and I doubt gay organizations would do so for that very reason. Sometimes people believe certain issues should be neither supported or antagonized rather than distract from their overall goal.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 10:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • duttybarb
      duttybarb

      @ Forrest..

      So you are saying that because normal marriage has a lot of divorce therefore whats the biggy letting gays get married? Why you people hold this argument is actually sad because it is a testament to how you view yourselves.

      Marriage has been messed up since the beginning of time..people have exploited marriage and the rights it brings forever…but it does not make it right. You cant tell me because a man cheats on his wife for whatever reason and disrespects the marriage convenant therefore it is okay to allow anyone come and further mess it up some more.

      Many of us out there still believe in having a marriage that is honest and blessed by God…whether you be Christian, Jew, Islamic..those are the ones that last. If you gays want to delude yourselves and play house then go ahead..but it will never ever be seen as anything but “gay marriage”. Im sure you understand why we use the term gay in front of marriage..to separate the abnormal from the normal.

      Aug 5, 2009 at 11:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      “whenever a black person makes an anti-gay comment or is discriminatory against gay people black gays defend them. Most black gay people are unwilling to confront anti-gay bigotry from black people. Black solidarity is their main concern. As long as that’s the case than anti-gay bigotry will go unchecked in the black community.”

      You have got to be fucking JOKING? I’ve NEVER defended an anti-gay comment from a black person with the sole exception of my brother and he’s actually gotten much better over the years.

      And it’s your broad sweeping statements about ALL black gay people in spite of the evidence that is on the very comments of this that reveals your racism. Bitch, I don’t even LIVE in the “black community” in a physical sense.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      Oh, and I’ve been out since I was 17 (I’m in my early 40’s now) and I came out IN the black community. And I know many black gays that did and continue to do exactly that.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @M Shane

      The Southern Baptists are overwhelmingly white (Rick Warren is a Southern Baptist). One of their pastor admitted on the radio to Alan Colmes that he is praying for the death of “the usurper B. Hussein Obama.” They were also largely the force behind Jim Crow laws in the South. And yes, I have read their website and it does explicitly state that it’s OK to discriminate against gays.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @M Shane:

      I do agree with you on the note about power hungry church leader. The black community is infested with them. But so is the white community.

      The NAACP varies from local chapter to local chapter. I believe the marriage equality is the official position of both the Maine and at least one California chapter of the NAACP. The NAACP chapter in Iowa, on the other hand, is run by a homophobe.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      It seems to me that the main reason civil rights groups (along with the general population, for that matter) aren’t eager to support us is that they mistakenly believe that sexual orientation is a *moral* issue. It’s painstakingly slow, but as more people come to understand that it has nothing to do with morality they’re more willing to see it as a civil rights problem instead.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 1:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @duttybarb:

      Go fuck yourself, Linda Blair style.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 1:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @M Shane:

      You’re right about that. Here in New York state, one of those very African American evangelical ministers in our state government, Ruben Diaz, is fiercely opposed to marriage equality and vows to vote against passage of legislation when it comes to the floor for a vote, he and one or two others could be the obstacle to getting it through all because of religious bigotry and hypocrisy.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 8:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Robert, NYC:

      Ruben Diaz identifies himself as Puerto Rican (and very proud of it) and, in fact, has a history of undercutting African American politicians.

      More trollish racism from uninformed queerty posters. God, I get sick of this shit.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Chitown Kev: I never said all black people.

      There have been so many examples of black gay people defending or covering up anti-gay bigotry from black people. I’ll just name two. Last year Obama did a bus tour in the South with religious figures one of whom was Donnie McKlurkin, an anti-gay bigot. Black gay people didn’t say a thing about it until a couple white gay people raised objections. Then it became “rich white gay men are picking on a ‘poor’ (millionaire) black man” from both black heterosexuals and black gay people. Then there was the infamous Isaiah Washington incidents. He said an anti-gay slur twice once behind closed doors and once on television. Every comment I’ve read from black gay people on these incidents have been against T.R. Knight, the gay man Isaiah was refering to. Many of the responses were either “rich white gay men are picking on a ‘poor’ (millionaire) black man” or “T.R. was put in his place”. A few months after the televised incident Isaiah was given a NAACP award and got a standing ovation.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @hyhybt: You said: “They mistakenly believe sexual orientation is a *moral* issue.”

      Huh? The “Bible tells them so.” The reason for the fight at the NAACP is two-thirds have the “religious belief” that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant. That’s the problem.

      The NAACP used to have “courage.” Now, they’re just being pussies. If their leaders/members disagree – put it to a vote. The vote will be Equality Vs. Religion. I’m afraid Religion will win, but at least we will know where we stand with the “fierce” civil rights activists NAACP.

      It’s a “religion” problem.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      So, I’m guessing their is no chance of a gay take-over of the NAACP? Maybe change the acronym to:

      National
      Association (for the)
      Advancement (of)
      COLORFUL
      People

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      actually, you did and on several occasions.

      “whenever a black person makes an anti-gay comment or is discriminatory against gay people black gays defend them.”

      “The reason black gays have their own clubs and pride events is because of self segregation and an unwillingness to reveal their sexuality elsewhere.”

      “Black gay people didn’t say a thing about it until a couple white gay people raised objections.”

      There’s an implied “all” in fron of those black gay statements, sweetie.

      And are you willing to equally the white gays that called (and continue to call) black folks “niggers” on many gay blogs? Especially this one.

      See, what pisses me off about this is that I’ve been called a “house nigger” too many times by black folks for advocating for gay rights to the extent that I do. Other black gays have, too. And again, all these “they” statement about “black gays” this and “black gays” that, what the fuck do you know about black gays or what all black gays say or don’t say or what we do. Many black gays have, in fact, self-segregated from their ethnic communities. I’m one of those black gays, in fact.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Andrew W:

      You could do that, by the way, white people have been a part of the NAACP from it’s inception and still are.

      I don’t necessarily mean a “gay takeover” and do remember what the primary mission of the NAACP is.

      The other thing to remember about Jealous that not many people know was that he was a very contoversial pick to head the NAACP.
      *****************************************************************
      “The board’s marathon eight-hour debate session lasted until 2 A.M., when Jealous was finally selected by a vote of 34-21. Grumpy board members shuffled out of the meeting to air their objections to the press — a marked contrast from just two years prior, when the newly elected Gordon strolled triumphantly into a room full of reporters. Many of the board members’ complaints — that Jealous was inexperienced, dismissive of established leaders like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, or simply not an active enough member of the NAACP — were published by NNPA columnist George Curry who, despite being Jealous’ longtime friend and colleague, disagreed with the board’s decision. In a column he wrote about the increasing number of biracial blacks in leadership positions, Curry obliquely referenced Jealous’ light skin tone, recalling a time when access to social gatherings of the black elite was often dependent on whether or not one was “light, bright, and damn near white.”

      Bond says that the issue also came up in private. During a closed-door meeting of the presidential search committee, one member questioned whether the light-skinned Jealous was a good choice for the voice of the NAACP. Bond was incensed. (“It would be beneath us to consider it,” he says.) The next meeting, he brought in a copy of Time magazine from 1938 featuring famed NAACP leader Walter White, who was light enough to pass as white. The subject was never brought up again.”

      http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_other_black_president

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      And there’s this:

      It just so happens that I am a part of a gay organization that is coordinating a response to the upcoming performance of dancehall “kill the gays” singer Buju Banton at the House of Blues in Chicago on October 1st.

      I wrote that, in large part, to get the word out there and also as an example that you know at least one black gay in your limited little world (again, in spite of all the evidence presented in Michael’s comment alone) that does not defend anti-gay bigotry from black people.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      The great divide between our communities is fairly recent and like most of our problems is the result of the union of ‘up to no good ‘religious bigots and political panderers.
      Hillary Clinton and her bbfs Rick Santomum, Jow Lieberman and other loathsome right wingers “championed federal funding of faith-based social services, which she embraced years before George W. Bush did; Marci Hamilton, author of God vs. the Gavel, says that the Clintons’ approach to faith-based initiatives “set the stage for Bush.” http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

      After the faith based scam was enacted George Bush’s brain, Karl Rove used it to bribe christer leaders with ‘faith based’ monies. The condition was that they had to promise to help Bush/Rove use hostility to same sex marriage as a wedge issue to elect Republicans. They were wildly successful as Bill Clintons DOMA spread to 39 of 50 states. In 2007-2008 Obama, the DNC and Obama’s religious outreach director Joshua Dubois turned the tables on the Republicans, organizing a nationwide network of christers for Obama and spreading the message of hate to elect Democrats.

      Their campaign culminated in Obama’s infamous bigoted battle cry “gawd’s in the mix” that galvanized christer bigots of all ethnicities but particularly from catholic, southern baptist and mormon cults to vote against us and pass Prop 8.

      Those strong connections between political pandering and christer bigotry are going to take a while to overcome because they’re based on money and hypocritical double dealing, two things that politicians and pulpit pimps are expert at.

      The way to do that is easy.

      First GLBT groups should go out of their way to support African Americans and other minority groups involved in defensive fights against racist like the one in Jena, La., and the fights of immigrants, Hawaiians and native Americans against racism. In the process of doing that we can raise the question of their support for ENDA and hate crimes bill, which benefits all of us and for support of same sex marriage. That process will not be enhanced by ‘demands. ’ GLBT groups should continue to sit down with like minded groups from other communities and try to find ways to work together.

      Secondly LGBT folks of all ethnicities and persuasions should loudly and publicly condemn racists in our own ranks and homophobes in other communities, refusing them admission to our forums and meetings and rejecting them out of hand.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay [Different person #2 using similar name]

      @Chitown Kev: “whenever a black person makes an anti-gay comment or is discriminatory against gay people black gays defend them.” The ones that speak up defend them.

      “The reason black gays have their own clubs and pride events is because of self segregation and an unwillingness to reveal their sexuality elsewhere.” I didn’t say all. There black gay people who acknowlegded their sexuality and are comfortable mingling with gay people of other races.

      “Black gay people didn’t say a thing about it until a couple white gay people raised objections.” That’s a fact. Nothing was said by any black gay person about Donnie McKlurkin being apart of Obama’s religious tour before a couple white gay people raised objections.

      I’ve never seen anyone on here refer to black people as the n-word. I seen it a couple times on another gay website a few years ago, that’s it.

      I don’t want to comment on stories like this because it’s the same thing over and over. Ben Jealous’ main concern is black solidarity. That’s why the NAACP isn’t taking a stand on marriage equality because it could rip the organization apart like it did the Anglican church. Fine. Just don’t trash gay people and gay organizations in the process. Stories like this always end up being about black solidarity vs. gay equality. Gay issues are my main concern so I will aways be on that side.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      Well, he’s head of the NAACP, what do expect Ben Jealous to be for? Now he is critcising the way the No On 8 campaign was run in it’s outreach to the black community but he is far from alone in that criticism and that criticism goes across racial lines. Hell, there’s a lot of gay people that trash gay organizations, esp. about Prop 8.

      As I suggested, the best way to work with the NAACP in this regard is eschew the national organizations for the time being and attempt to work with the local branches; some of which do support marriage equality, most of which don’t.

      To be perfectly honest, I don’t and never have recognized that distinction between black solidarity and gay equality, I’m of the you accept all of me or you accept none of me philosophy.

      As far as the n-word on this (and other sites) I don’t even have the time to post all the times I’ve seen the word on various gay sites. And that’s just in the past month.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay [Different person #2 using similar name]

      @Chitown Kev: You are doing great work. Thanks.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      “Is it wrong to think that Jealous also bears some responsibility in changing the minds of the black community? Especially when it comes to civil rights?”

      Absolutely not. He is a leader. His role is to lead the organization. So he definitely is part of the solution — and it’s proper to call him on issues like this. That said, his leadership on the issue doesn’t necessarily have to be an “overnight change of heart”… But he has to start somehow. And, continuing to cast it off as a “non-issue” is not providing the leadership the black community deserves (expects?) from NAACP.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @AlwaysGay:

      Well, I do the best that I can in a given situation and there are many black gays that do so for gay equality. Unfortunately, it seems that many of the loudest ones get all the press coverage because the MSM media is interested in the conflict.

      I’m not saying that there aren’t black gays that don’t fit your profile; many do.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Andrew:

      Well, then you have to consider the backlash that the California NAACP received when it came out in opposition to Proposition 8. Like any other civil rights organization, the NAACP survives by it’s donors. There were quite a few donors that threatened to cutoff their support. Without donors, the NAACP cannot survive.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • alicia banks
      alicia banks

      gay rights are civil rights!
      and millions of gays are black!
      this bigoted betrayal is unforgiveable and idefensible!

      these new homohating antics at the naacp are a disgrace to many legendary warriors like julian bond!!!

      Civil rights legend Julian Bond dared to reprimand the white sheep of the King family, Bernice King, and skip Coretta’s funeral service. Bond admirably and respectfully did so in a dignified protest against the rabidly gaybashing pastor of the church chosen to host the service, a fool named Eddie Long. Sadly and surely Bernice’s curious and equally notorious gay hatred had a hand in desecrating her mother’s service so…

      I am sick of black orgs that allow themselves to be pimped by racist neocons, like King Shrub’s (George W. Bush’s) house boy T. D. Jakes. These preacher pimps individually allowed racist Republikkkans to dupe them and their mindless, masochistic, black flocks into aiding and abetting neocons, as they stole yet another election in 2004. They epitomize the audacity of amnesia whenever they dare to lament what we now endure collectively at the hands of an increasingly amoral and ruthless Republikkkan regime.

      Contrary to Republikkkan religious rhetoric, hatred and lies are not godly values. This book meticulously exposes the hypocrisy of such sinful homohatred. It exposes how gaybashers defy God’s commandment to love everyone, as they encourage others to love everyone except gays. Gaybashers ban gay marriage as they ignore gay love. They use birth control religiously, as they falsely claim sex is exclusively for procreation. They demand that gays pretend to be reformed heterosexuals, as they condemn the “Down Low” homosexuals who destroy families and break heterosexual hearts daily. They claim the doors of black churches are perpetually open to all entrants, even as they slander our names and slay our spirits upon entry.

      shame!!!!
      ab

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @alicia banks:

      well said, alicia.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      NAACP and Ben Jealous should TAKE A VOTE. Have some balls! I would like to know if the NAACP supports ALL civil rights or just their own.

      Let’s see where they stand – with us or against us.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “I am sick of black orgs that allow themselves to be pimped by racist neocons, like King Shrub’s (George W. Bush’s) house boy T. D. Jakes. These preacher pimps individually allowed racist Republikkkans to dupe them and their mindless, masochistic, black flocks into aiding and abetting neocons, as they stole yet another election in 2004.”

      Especially this. My suggestion: follow the money. I do wonder how much Mormon money some of those black churches in California raked in. The Mormons, of all denominations!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      By the way NAACP “Equality” is for “Everyone.”

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      If it were put to a vote (not exactly sure how that works) then it probably it would be against us?

      Then what?

      As I stated, there nothing stopping gay people (black or white) from getting involved; I’m considering getting involved myself. I know a few white people that are involved and at least one white gay person that both donates and is involved.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: Let the Board or Membership of NAACP Vote and then we will know where they stand. Right now they are doing NOTHING. It would be helpful to know their intentions.

      My guess is “religious beliefs” are preventing them from choosing equality. They should be given the opportunity to vote for either Equality or Religion.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      @Chitown Kev:
      Re #75: Thinking about donors and dollars is always part of the equation of leadership for an org like NAACP. That said, donors and dollars cannot be the ultimate determining factor — otherwise the organization ends up standing for nothing. So, yeah, part of his leadership will have to include changing the hearts and minds of his donor-base that is freaky on this issue.

      BTW, you call me on my post but then (in #77) say “well said” to Alicia. ?? I agree with what she said. I think she and I are on the same (or similar) page here. Cheers.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      At the national level, I guess you mean, Brian.

      Local chapters have a lot of autonomy and that don’t necessarily follow the national NAACP line at all. The gay community should have no problem supporting, say, the California chapter (and I think they have). I’d have to research it to be sure, but I know the Chicago branches are infested with South Side of Chitown black ministers, so I wouldn’t support them.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Andrew:

      No, I didn’t call you on your post, exactly, I simply said take the donor base into considerattion. Not simply because of the marriage equality issue, but (as I noted above) I think Jealous is in a tenuous spot for a lot of reasons (see my post #67), not simply the marriage equality issue. There’s a bigger picture.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: Local, National or Regional we need the NAACP to put their ass on the line. It is unacceptable to wait, in Ben Jealous’s words “maybe decades” for them to take a stand.

      Equality is Equality. I see absolutely no reason for anyone to “wait.” For some, this IS a life and death matter. Tell the NAACP that 1500 gay teens will commit suicide this year because they believe they are wrong, sinners or deviant. If they don’t join us for equality they have that blood on their hands.

      Before people claim my comments are harsh, please understand they are simply very honest and very direct. Kids shouldn’t die because some groups are too slow to make up their minds. Especially a group committed to civil rights.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      Would it be off-topic to mention that the National Black Justice Coalition spoke at the NAACP’s convention and they are forming an LGBT Equality Task Force?

      Aug 6, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      But how is the issue of gay teen suicide related to marriage equality, exactly? And no, I don’t think your comments are too harsh.

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      Actually that would be very much on topic.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • alicia banks
      alicia banks

      chitown kev:

      ditto!

      i am a chicago native too…
      thanks homie!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      DADT, DOMA, and Marriage Equality are all the same problem for the “religious.” Religion has defined homosexuals as wrong, sinners and deviant – because of this we can’t win a popular vote (the religious Majority) and we can’t get the support from NAACP.

      My goal is just Equality. As long as we are branded “wrong” by religion we will NEVER be equal.

      I believe it is time to tell the World we are Not Wrong and to reject the institution of religion.

      Soon, gays and lesbians will be able to choose what is more important – Equality or Religion. The NAACP could get their house in order by having a vote on the issue. If they “stay in the closet” they’re not helping anyone and their “historical” courage has vanished.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      I do have this question, though

      Why do you “need” for the NAACP specifically and the black community specifically to support you?

      [WARNING HERE: It is extremely rare for me to ask a question in forums like this that I can't answer myself]

      Other than the failed attempt by those fool black pastors in DC, I am not aware of any effort by the black community to coordinate or fund any anti-gay ballot initiatives.

      I mean, black straight people are pretty much like…well, most other straight people.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      Well, I think the NAACP has a boatload of items on their agenda related to the historicall nature of their mission.

      Now the NAACP get behind DADT, I could see that and I am surprised that I hadn’t thought of that. Particularly in an economic downturn (and these are primarily the issues that the NAACP are dealing with with jobs, foreclosures, etc.) the Armed Forces is and has always been an option for black kids who didn’t or couldn’t go to college.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      Hmmm., I did not know this.

      Ben Jealous is also Episcopalian. That may be the division in other organizations that he’s refering to.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      I’m not sure what “unfinished business” the NAACP has, but Equality for “anyone” shouldn’t wait and it isn’t negotiable.

      Why does anyone think that ANYONE or ANY ORGANIZATION should WAIT? That’s insane.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      Why do you “need” for the NAACP specifically and the black community specifically to support you?

      For one very simple reason.

      The Gay community supported the Black community when they were still marching for their civil rights.

      *Ducks as the rotten tomatoes, eggs and coke bottles begin to fly in my direction* LOL

      Aug 6, 2009 at 2:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @schlukitz:

      That’s one simple reason. I agree with you; I personally know a couple of older gay men that did exactly that.

      And I have no problem with reminding those in the black community of that actually, and I never have. It’s a pretty easy way to sniff out homophobes, actually.

      (Like the time I brought up Huey Newton’s support of the gay community; all of a sudden he went from being Black Panther #1 to simply a crackhead!)

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      Another reason would be is that the same bigots that fund and coordinate these anti-gay initiatives and solicit support in the black community would turn on the black community in a NY minute. In fact, many of those same bigots (i.e. thr Southern Baptist Convention, the Mormon Church) are anti-black as well.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @schlukitz:

      Maybe I’ll get flamed here, but I’m not sure it’s accurate to say the majority of gays in the 50s and 60s were involved in or supported the civil rights movement. If there are racist gays now, I can only imagine it being much worse then!

      We were certainly there on an individual basis, no doubt about that, but I don’t know what positions the leading gay groups of the time like Mattachine held regarding the “movement” as a whole.

      I’m willing to get schooled on this issue.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      How do you people justify WAITING by ANYONE? There is never a valid excuse or valid reason to defer equality. Nobody “bargains” or “negotiates” for equality – you just support it. Period.

      It is time for the NAACP to put up or shut up. How anyone could rationalize anything less is just insane.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      Actually, the Mattachine Movement and Harry Hay did want to march with King. Remember that at that time, though, there was a lot of red-baiting of gays plus those sodomy laws. Harry Hay decided that not to march with King for the black movement’s own benefit. I’ll get you my source on that later.

      Actually, the Unitraian Church did march with King. many of their members were white and, as that was one of the very few churches that accepted openly gay people at that time, I suspect that many (if not most) of those Unitarians were gay.

      And, as you say, of course there were racist gays then too.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      The other thing is there weren’t a lot of black people that were involved in the 60’s civil rights movement, either. Certainly nowadays, I don’t know very many post Civil Rights babies like myself that have a lot of historical knowledge as to what the movement was all about.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      Thanks, Chitown.

      I can always look to you for a level-headed, well thought-out response.

      Nice to see you posting once again after somewhat of a hiatus. ;O)

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      Thank you for your commentary, Anthony.

      I am certain that Google or Bing would reveal the sort of historical information you expressed an interest in.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @Chitown Kev:

      Exactly, sometimes people act as if everybody was out in the streets marching, when it was a dedicated group of individuals willing to risk ostracism and bodily and financial harm. That goes for the civil rights and nascent gay movements. Even today I have seen how difficult it can be to get gay people involved in political activity.

      That is why I am not sure it’s necessary that the NAACP, SCLC, Urban League and other black organizations be on the front lines of the gay rights struggle. The support would be nice, and there are similarities in the discrimination people face, but I don’t think gay rights are contingent on Benjamin Jealous giving his approval (although I feel he and the NAACP are supportive of gay rights, as seen in the Equality Task Force). It’s all about mobilizing and engaging folks whether they are affiliated with an organization or not.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      Well said.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 3:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Anthony in Nashville: So, I guess we’ve concluded from the range of comments here that we shouldn’t have any expectations that the NAACP will take a stand for Equality. How disappointing AND embarrassing. MLK would be saddened.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Anthony in Nashville: @Brian:

      An expression of anti-racist solidarity

      Today, these attempts by the early Mattachine founders to compare their situation to that of the Dine (Navajo) and Pueblo nations, Mexican culture and language, and the relationship of Japanese-Americans to Japan and of African Americans to Liberia may not seem very sensitive to those struggling for national liberation.

      But in the 1950s these white men were anti-racists and anti-imperialists. They dedicated their lives to fighting all forms of oppression. Identifying themselves as a cultural minority was partly an attempt to express solidarity with those battling racism and anti-Semitism, as they stated clearly in their 1951 Missions and Purposes. They called African American, Mexican and Jewish people “our fellow minorities.”

      The written prospectus that the Mattachine movement was built on, penned by Hay in 1948 and amended by him in 1950, began: “With full realization that encroaching [North] American Fascism, like unto previous impacts of International Fascism, seeks to bend unorganized and unpopular minorities into isolated fragments of social and emotional instability; … in order to earn for ourselves any place in the sun, we must with perseverance and self-discipline work collectively … for the first-class citizenship participation of Minorities everywhere, including ourselves … .” (”Radically Gay”)

      Those white gays and lesbians who later argued against this early Mattachine concept of gays as a cultural minority often used the most vile racist language because they did not want to be identified with African American, Mexican and Jewish people.

      Many cultures raising their voices

      The idea that lesbians and gays are one “culture” or comparable to oppressed nations obscured the fact that the vast population these movement founders were trying to organize was made up of many cultures and nationalities.

      In 1950, for example, Merton Bird, a Black gay man, and Dorr Legg, a white gay man, formed the “Knights of the Clock” group in Los Angeles. The organization brought together inter-racial gay and lesbian couples and their families. This support network was necessary to provide a safe space to discuss social problems.

      The Black gays and lesbians in the group not only faced the additional burden of racism, they were also part of an oppressed nationality with its own culture(s). Some of the racism directed at them also spilled over as discrimination and violence against their white loved ones—something not experienced by whites who partnered with whites.

      http://www.workers.org/2005/us/lavender-red-39/

      Damn, here’s a good source, Anthony

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @Chitown Kev:

      Thanks for the link, I will check it out in more detail once I get off this work computer, LOL!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: Good History Lesson. What about now?

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @Brian:

      MLK would be saddened by a lot of things in today’s world.

      I’m not saying that gay groups should not try to build bridges with the NAACP and other black organizations, only that I believe it’s wrong to assume automatic support just because they are black. You’ve still got to “make the case,” if you will, to show them how each group benefits from the support of the other.

      One of the critiques I heard repeatedly after Prop 8 was that gay groups do not show much interest in topics that aren’t seen as “gay issues.” Some groups may have stepped up their outreach, but I can’t say that has become a high priority for gay strategists/organizations as a whole. When I think about the last 10 months or so of Queerty or The Advocate, it seems the only time they want to discuss black people is to criticize us for being homophobic and “not knowing better” than to be on the front lines of the gay rights struggle.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:
      What about now?

      “Jealous sees these successes — and the challenges they bring — as an opportunity rather than a death knell. “Our founders said we were going to eradicate lynch mobs; 30 years later we did it. In 1918, we said we were going to desegregate the military; 30 years later we did it. In 1932, we said we were going to outlaw Jim Crow; 22 years later we did it. In 1954, we said we were going to desegregate every institution in this country, from the local school to the global corporation. … It took 40 years, but we succeeded. In 1960, we said we were going to level the political playing field; we’ve done it,” Jealous says. “It’s okay in our mind to pick not a three-year goal but a 30-year goal, because that’s how we’ve succeeded consistently.”

      Thats’ from the Jealous article.

      Go to NAACP headquarters and demand that their board take a vote on marriage equality. Or tell them to go fuck themselves. Or work with them on their issues and see the commonalities, as your gay forefathers would have had you to do. Call them names. Whatever works for you at this point.

      Dude, noone is making excuses for them but it is what it is.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      Or these incessant demands for, right now from Brian…

      Sadly, not only do many gay people not know that black history that they want to quote from frequently, they seem to not know a lot of gay history.

      @111 is directed at Brian.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Anthony in Nashville: Who cares if they are Black? Equality should be colorblind. This isn’t difficult – either you are FOR equality or you are AGAINST equality. There are no excuses. NAACP needs to put up or shut up.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Brian: You don’t understand – the PAST already happened. This is TODAY. Why do you insist on “providing cover” for a simple decision: Either the NAACP supports Equality or they don’t. Allowing them to languish in disagreement doesn’t HELP anyone – them or us.

      They should take a vote. Yes or No.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      NAACP has gone from fierce advocates for civil rights to a bunch of closeted bigots. Maybe they should just close shop and be done with it. If they are not willing to fight for equality then they no longer have any purpose. Somebody turn off the lights, please.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      @Brian: Why do people so often insist on a vote now, now, NOW? Work towards convincing people they should be on your side, and time the vote, if possible, for when you’re most likely to win. Especially in the case of something that’s not primarily focused on us and that works slowly over decades: why be in such a hurry to force them to declare themselves *right now*?

      Aug 6, 2009 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @Brian: This is no defense, but they’re not seeing it as a civil rights issue because 1) A lot of racial/ethnic minorities resent people claiming oppression for a “hidden” identity, 2) They see homosexuality as a sin and/or a changeable identity and 3) They see it as deviance which makes it a moral issue instead of a civil rights issue.

      Those are lame excuses and we all need to combat the bigotry and misconceptions about the LGBT community if we’re going to get partners in the fight for equality. In the statements above, Jealous clearly mentions being in on the fight for equal employment, hate crimes and anti-bullying measures, the only problem is gay marriage. The same issue is with a lot of the American public because we live in such a heterosexist society that people want to see heterosexual marriage as some normal, cherished, sacred institution and while they may be ok with gays as individuals, they’re afraid of gay sex and still see our relationships as less-than. These are the attitudes that must be overcome in order to get the support of historical civil rights groups… writing them all off isn’t going to help our cause. They’re already willing to support us on numerous issues we just really have to invalidate their prejudices on recognizing our relationships.

      We need to put in the work to win over allies instead of whining when progress isn’t moving forward fast enough for our liking.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 6:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @Brian:

      I look at the alliance between (straight) black people and gays like any relationship: if you want a place at the table, you’ve got to bring something to the table. Just making demands without offering something to the other party generally won’t get you very far.

      You are obviously passionate in your beliefs. But what does the NAACP gain from your righteous anger? How would they benefit from heeding your demand to place gay equality at the center of their mission? Are you willing to be as vocal about issues important to them, like racism or economic opportunity?

      Demanding things without being willing to work for them is usually seen as whining. If you’re this adamant about the role the NAACP should be taking on gay marriage or other gay issues, I suggest you contact your local chapter to get involved.

      Don’t talk about it, be about it!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 7:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • toe edge
      toe edge

      Benjamin Todd Jealous is a poor excuse for a leader. He should step down and let someone with balls lead the NAACP.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 7:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @KD108: With everything you said – why didn’t you use the word “religion.” They won’t support gays and lesbians because of religious beliefs – nothing more, nothing less.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 8:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Anthony in Nashville: Are you crazy? This isn’t an “alliance” between blacks and gays. That’s absurd. You are suggesting we should trade support or something? That’s pathetic. People either believe in equality or they don’t. You don’t “negotiate” those beliefs.

      The NAACP should take a vote and see if they are honorable enough to put Equality BEFORE Religion. As a Country we did that for Blacks AND the Slavery issue by denouncing the Biblical “Sin of Ham” and “Curse of Canaan.” There was a time when “religion” oppressed Blacks. Are you suggesting that the Biblical treatment of gays is any different?

      If you believe that us gays need to negotiate with the Black community for support, I would suggest that you are trying to benefit from what real humans instinctively do honestly and sincerely. Being a human being and believing in full equality is not something to sell or trade.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 8:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @Brian: I guess I thought I implied it when invoking “moral issue” and “sin”… People’s religious beliefs make otherwise reasonable people quite unreasonable :-/ I just wish they could just take a page from one of my state senators Saqib Ali:

      “My stance on this issue isn’t politically expedient. I am the first Muslim in the legislature. Homosexuality is strictly forbidden in Islam. As such I have evinced much grief from my most conservative supporters. But I recognize that I represent people of all faiths and no faith at all. If I tried to enforce religion by law — as in a theocracy — I would be doing a disservice to my both constituents and to my religion.”

      Religion blinds people from the fact that we’re all equal and deserve to be treated equally in the eyes of the law. We need to open some eyes here… I frankly wish more hetero religious folks would argue that the government needs to get out of the marriage business altogether since it’s supposedly sacred and under God (and since they can’t make it fair), but I guess they wanna be selfish…

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DUTTYBARB
      DUTTYBARB

      You people are so perverted and blind, wake up, no one wants you to marry! Only Godly people can get married, and gays can’t be Godly. Here is my list of the Godly (I made it up with my 4th husband–who just happens to be my 1st cousin too, so don’t tell me about Family Values):

      1. Christians are Godly at all times, including
      a) those who divorce and remarry
      b) those who kick their dogs, slap around their children
      and step on helpless birds (a pasttime of mine)
      c) those who successfully go through reparative therapy and
      give up on the homosexual lifestyle, but secretly
      engage in public restoom toe tapping, but continue to
      assert their heterosexuality loud and clear
      d) people who say they are Christian and denounce homosexuals
      even when they commit other sins, like glutony and have
      extra marital affairs, and are slothful…all of that
      is Godly, if you are not an admitted homosexual
      2. Jews (though they are going to He double toothpicks)
      3. Muslims (going to hell)
      4. Mormons (going to hell)
      5. Buddists (hellllllll)
      7. Catholics (most hell, but a few pergatory)
      8. Egnostics (hell)
      9. Athiests (yes, even unGodly folks should be able to marry,
      as long as they aren’t perverted homosexuals, and after all
      what other kind is there?)
      10. People who shoplift from Costco, but pray for forgiveness
      for having done so, especially if they lift my 5 pound bag
      of Kirkland Chocolate Drizzeled Deep Fried Twinkies

      All of the above are allowed to marry because they are Godly,
      even when they reject the only one and true God, my God, as defined by me and me alone, Jesus Christ is my personal savior.

      Okie dokie…I need to run to my anger management 12 step program now. Tonight I think they are going to force me to apologize to my sister for sleeping with her 15 year old son; you would not believe how much alcohol I had to give him to get him to do me!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @DUTTYBARB: You are really good at this role-playing irony thing whoever you are… I just wish I could laugh completely because there are people who actually think like that :-/

      mmmmm deep fried twinkies lol…

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Brian:

      Being a human being and believing in full equality is not something to sell or trade.

      Bravisimo.

      Thank you for having the balls to say it, Brian.

      I have no taste for kissing anyone’s ass to get what is guaranteed to me by our forefathers who penned the the Bill of Rights and the American Constitution, but is denied to me by spineless, yellow-bellowed politicians that steal our tax money and fuck us over as a thank you while kissing up to the religious right.

      It’s not about crawling around on our hands and knees and eating the dust of the road and begging for another kick in the ass from the people who hate your queer ass.

      It’s about standing up like a fucking man and saying “I’m madder than hell and I am not going to take this shit anymore”.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @KD108: You are correct, Religion is the problem. Until gays and lesbians reject it we will never win equality.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DeAnimator
      DeAnimator

      Awwww. The NAACP forgot about their whole struggle for civil rights. Too cute.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      I see Cunty Barb here I’ll come back to her in a minute.

      1) As a Country we did that for Blacks AND the Slavery- who is this “we” here? Many white people enslaved blacks and resisted the abolition of slavery to the point that a war was fought over. There were white people on both sides. So I am really, really confused on the “we.” Enlighten me.

      2) You don’t “negotiate” those beliefs.- That’s true but:

      The solution for civil equality for any group is political in nature and, ultimately, requires a political solution. Politics requires trades, negotiations, etc. As distateful as that is, that’s the way it’s done. No group that has fought for civil equality at any level in any place has NOT had to do that. It may not be ideal, it may be distasteful, but it is a fact. I can offer you many examples of deal-making and coalition building undertaken.

      Again, I am not talking about beliefs, I am talking about actions.

      Prior to the 1964 election, for example, King wanted LBJ to insert voting rights into the 1964 Civil Rights Act. LBJ refused to do it at that time and flat out told King that he didn’t think he would re-election if he did that then. LBJ didn’t really want to do it immeaditely after the election but then Selma happened.

      If politics were simply a matter of acting on our beliefs and simply doing the right thing, there would be a solution to the immigration problem now.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @schlukitz: Maybe I’m just a little jaded, but the constitution was written by people who considered me 3/5 of a person so I’m not to keen on the Forefathers. By virtue of being human I deserve to be treated equally and the government protecting that ideal is even better.

      I don’t think you should have to kiss anyone’s ass or ask for some sort of “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” deal because that’s not justice or equality, it’s shameless self promotion. We need to show them that this is a civil rights issue and religion doesn’t trump it, and using it as a crutch to justify bigotry is insane considering that religion has been used to discriminate against any oppressed group throughout history from Women and Blacks to the LGBT community. We don’t do that by throwing fits and saying, “well fuck you then.”

      We need to see beyond our issues if we’re going to complain about people not supporting us. We need to combat their bigotry while showing our humanity by being concerned about the economically disenfranchised, the biased judicial system, misogyny, ableism, and a host of other injustices keeping all of human kind oppressed. Maybe if we seemed less selfish and elitist then people would stop treating us like abstract evil instead of people who deserve to be treated equally.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 9:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      Today’s discussion has been good for learning some history and getting a feel for how deep the divisions our in the GLBT communities. I’d guess that they’re going to get deeper.

      But what’s missing are the key questions posed by the backsliding of the NAACP. Their dependence on the Democrats is what holds them back. That keeps them from analyzing and denounce the role of bigoted cults and the ‘faith based’ bribes that motivate the unholy alliance of misleading preachers and pandering politicians.

      This is a historic test for the NAACPs leadership. Failure to come to grips with SSM and the linked question of their delusional dependence on Obama and the Democrats will inevitably put them in the same boat as EQCA and the leadership of the AFL-CIO, i.e., up shit creek without a paddle.

      ECQA/No on 8 fought the battle against Prop 8 with both hands tied behind their back. First they simply ignored the majority of California voters who are in ‘minority’ communities and we paid the price. Then when Obama’s bigoted war cry “gawd’s in the mix” was used by the right to bring out bigot voters ECQA/No on 8 stood there like some stupid cow that wandered through a fence hole and up a freeway on ramp. Then they were hamburger. They refused to denounce Obama and we paid the price.

      Likewise as the economy began its sharp descent into recession/depression the AFL-CIO leaders stupidly decided to trust a union busting hand puppet of the rich. Obama’s saving grace is that he’s loyal to money: the rich, HMOs, Big Pharma and etc. He’s paying out trillions to cover the losses of the rich. He stopped single payer health care in its tracks. He broke the UAW and is ending the prosperity of hundreds of thousands of autoworkers of all ethnicities by forcing them to accept draconian pay and benefit cuts.

      For the unions, for Democrat front groups and for groups like the NAACP the questions posed by the fight for the civil right to be married cannot be ignored too much longer. As the economic and war crises deepen so will the radicalization. This time around a role unlike the ‘30’s and the 60’s when we were peripheral and closeted. It’s not that we weren’t active, but we did little in our own name.

      If the leaderships of the NAACP, unions and our own communities continue to go dumpster diving in the Democratic (sic) looking for favors then some very impatient black, trade union and LGBT folks are going to put them in a tie sack and toss them in history’s dumpster.

      [img]http://huntergatherernyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dumpster-2.jpg [/img]

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @DeAnimator:

      Awwww. The NAACP forgot about their whole struggle for civil rights. Too cute.

      But no worse than the HRC who never even knew that there was a struggle for civil-rights going on.

      They were too busy with their lavish fund-raising dinner parties and balls to notice the suffering of the very people who supported them in a style to which they had not previously been accustomed, but quickly learned to like.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “Maybe I’m just a little jaded, but the constitution was written by people who considered me 3/5 of a person so I’m not to keen on the Forefathers.”

      Perfect case in point of a political deal being cut. Many did not want to count slaves at all becuase they were considered property and not full human beings. The Southern States threatened not to sign the Constitution unless this specfic provision was put in to inflate their census figures and, thereby, increasing their representation and power

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMack
      MackMack

      Religion is a problem, yet many many in the GLBT community are people who go to a church, a synagogue, a temple or another place of worship. There is such a distinction to be made between “faith” and “religion.” Faith is exceedingly personal, and I would not wish to intrude on the faith held by anyone in the GLBT community by an outright rejection of “religion,” which differs from faith in that it is a political tool that manipulates with false ideology in order to advance an agenda that places a few in power over the masses.

      I recently had my first conversation with my cousin, who was a fierce Proposition 8 proponent–he called and caught me off guard. Like so many Evangelicals, he utter such soundbites as “what about Romans,” but he can’t tell you what Romans is about, what Paul is saying, what the language meant at the time, what historical perspective was at that time; simply put, he is vastly ignorant of scripture, but knows what his preacher tells him. “I can’t take off my Christianity, you know,” he said, putting forth the argument we all see here on these pages when the vastly ignorant Christian folks claim that one can just simply ignore the human condition and stop being gay–as if anyone could stop being homosexual by ceasing to have sex. We yearn for companionship, for love, and through these intimate relationships we grow as human beings. They fail to see that who we are is something innate, and that they are the indoctrinated…they wrap themselves in a cloak of deep seeded hate so entirely that they cease to feel, and are no longer in touch with their humanity.

      In my conversation with my cousin, it hit me that I had been raised by my father to be a good American. He believed that in America, we would be a society of people who disagreed on religion, on matters of culture and politics, but that as a society, we would honor and respect one another, even if we would not break bread with eachother. He placed a greater value on being a free American who wished to protect the freedom of all Americans ahead of his religion, for he recognized that in order to live in a free society, the foundational principal of this country, nothing could come before his responsibility to his country to assure freedom of all–this trumped his religious belief system, which he exercised in his own life, with his own family, independent of the folks across the street, who were atheists or the Jewish family next door.

      The fact is that the folks who wish to oppress us are fiercely unAmerican; they hate democracy and notion of free association. Unfortunately, so many Americans have been dumbed down, while others are lazy, like my cousin, just place blind faith in their pastors–whatever they say goes, and they don’t need to really study their faith, just as long as they are obedient. Frankly, they don’t even know who they are being obedient to. It is so much easier to give up your freedom and liberty by wearing a smock of religiousity, because being a true American who believes in maintaining a pluralistic socieity takes understanding and intelligence…it takes effort, effort to study, effort to understand, an effort to try.

      Sadly, folks like my cousin, and a few here, are not up to the challenge of being a good American, and are so very willing to simply surrender to being sheep.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Bill Perdue:

      Pretty much right about that.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @KD108:

      Maybe if we seemed less selfish and elitist then people would stop treating us like abstract evil instead of people who deserve to be treated equally.

      This is the same hog-wash I’ve been hearing from the Obama apologists for the past seven months now.

      Spare me, please!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @MackMack:

      Sadly, folks like my cousin, and a few here, are not up to the challenge of being a good American, and are so very willing to simply surrender to being sheep.

      You got that shit right, my friend!

      Very sad, indeed!

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: YOUR COMMENTS:

      1) As a Country we did that for Blacks AND the Slavery- who is this “we” here? Many white people enslaved blacks and resisted the abolition of slavery to the point that a war was fought over. There were white people on both sides. So I am really, really confused on the “we.” Enlighten me.

      WE are Americans. We became colorless. We righted that wrong. You can continue to bring up the past – I am talking about what we “as a Nation” did. We made it right.

      2) You don’t “negotiate” those beliefs.- That’s true but:
      The solution for civil equality for any group is political in nature and, ultimately, requires a political solution. Politics requires trades, negotiations, etc. As distateful as that is, that’s the way it’s done. No group that has fought for civil equality at any level in any place has NOT had to do that. It may not be ideal, it may be distasteful, but it is a fact. I can offer you many examples of deal-making and coalition building undertaken. Again, I am not talking about beliefs, I am talking about actions.

      At the core of all actions are BELIEFS. The only way our equality is political is “the will of the people.” Gays have NEVER won a “popular vote” meaning people voted and all the research shows – especially as it pertains to homosexuals, they vote their BELIEFS. Even our new (I hasten to add) Black President said he was “struggling with his beliefs” regarding equality for gays.

      It is beyond naive to suggest that “beliefs” about homosexuals are not the main problem. If we do nothing about those beliefs we will not have any political (popular votes) victories.

      People who really want nothing less than full equality realize that will not come from a court order or legislative action – it will be when we are no longer WRONG, SINNERS or DEVIANT. To that victorious end WE MUST reject the continued branding by religion. We must also vigorously re-define ourselves.

      If we don’t have the courage to stand up for who we really are (Not Wrong), we don’t deserve equality. We’ll know we’ve made it when people can say “homosexual” and get no reaction. We may not be there yet with “blacks,” (and that is my sincere opinion) but many of us are doing our best – simply because it is the right thing to do. We simply hope others have the same human intent.

      I wish the NAACP had my heart. If they did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @MackMack:

      This is so, so true. I’ve had these conversations with my fundamenatlist cousin too. I just wanted to slap him…

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • edgyguy1426
      edgyguy1426

      Kev did you get in on that City Hall anti-Ocasio replacement write -in? It was massive from what I can tell. And it worked.

      OMG Dutty has a sense of humor.LOLOL

      As a buddhist, it’s ok if I do end up in hell cuz at least I can smoke there. Well i don’t smoke really but it’s fun to say

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Youcanthandlethetruth
      Youcanthandlethetruth

      SWM 4 SWM or Couple
      You: 5-11, Shoulder Length, Hair, beard, bit of a bear, blue eyes, looks a bit like Jesus, Top!
      Me: Hopeless bottom boy, 325 lbs, cut, 4 inches if you can find it within the folds, likes watersports.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Youcanthandlethetruth
      Youcanthandlethetruth

      oh…ah…Wrong Site…please ignore the above! Dear heavenly father, please forgive my….
      Would you please give me some privacy! Geez…(and I spelled that with a “g” and not a “j” so it doesn’t count as blaspheme)

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Chitown Kev: Great point Kev. Not to be harsh but in my opinion the NAACP stopped being a credible civil rights organization when the leadership broke from NAACP chairman of the board Julian Bond’s stance that gay rights are human rights and civil rights and no black person should oppose them. He has also said that “black people of all people should support equal rights and that is what gay marriage is”. I will not give another dime of my money or support the NAACP until they change their stance and actively work toward equality for lgbt people.Sounds like the organization needs new leadership.Their stance on marriage equality is a disgrace.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      “WE are Americans. We became colorless. We righted that wrong. You can continue to bring up the past – I am talking about what we “as a Nation” did. We made it right.”

      No we didn’t. You have the privilege of thinking and believing that. I don’t.

      It is beyond naive to suggest that “beliefs” about homosexuals are not the main problem. If we do nothing about those beliefs we will not have any political (popular votes) victories.

      I never suggested that we NOT do anything about beliefs.

      And with some people, gays will ALWAYS be wrong, sinful, and deviant, no matter what we do. Just like to some people I’ll never be anything more or less than a nigger.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @schlukitz: I’m not exactly sure what your definition of hog wash is, but what I said is the truth. People see the LGBT community as a bunch of deviant, rich, whiny white men who want their privilege back since they lost it when they came out as liking “teh buttseks”… We need to put out more diverse and accurate images of our community to combat some of the stereotypes that contribute to homophobia. We also need to act like we give a shit about things that effect more than just “teh gayz” like economic equality, immigration, racism, homelessness etc. instead of being one issue activists.

      The burden of combating homophobia isn’t just on us, but if we keep telling anyone who could come around to helping our cause to fuck off, how will that help us?

      What the hell did any of what I said have to do with Obama anyway?

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @edgyguy1426:

      No I didn’t, that was in the hands of powers far greater than me. Daley DOES NOT want to piss of the gays.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @getreal:

      No, that’s not being harsh at all. I also don’t think that it’s Jealous’ personal opinion, in fact, he’s said as much. Jealous has a history of working with too many other human rights issues not to get. His hands are tied but I also think that if he is the president of an organization that is not consistent with his personal views then he should resign and avoid the double talk.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:

      personal views on critical issues, that is.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: You said: “And with some people, gays will ALWAYS be wrong, sinful, and deviant, no matter what we do. Just like to some people I’ll never be anything more or less than a nigger.”

      I have much more confidence in human beings. A while back we had people that worshiped Zeus and other Greek Gods. Today, that “mythology” is gone and religion (as we know it today) is headed the same place – enlightenment and understanding.

      Regarding your last sentence: That is mostly up to you.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      It’s OK to be optimistic, I am too, but I am pragmatic also. And hey, leave the Greek Gods alone, Hermes is my favorite (God of the crossroads and of theives).

      Actually, it’s none of my business how anyone else regards me. As I told my cousin, racism is not MY problem, personally. Personally, I am pretty much at that post-racial place insofar as how I treat and regard human beings.

      But I am realistic enough to know that not everyone is that way.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: Stop being “realistic.” Find your imagination. Imagine equality and BE equality. The rest will follow.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Chitown Kev: I agree Jealous should resign because what credibility does the NAACP have if they sit idly by and observe the state sponsored legalized discrimination of any population in this country. It makes me question the integrity of people who fought for their civil rights in the 1960’s and are not now joining the lgbt movement fight for theirs. I would also like to say you handled with grace someone preaching to you that racism was over it. I am realizing that it is naivete not malice that makes people make such pronouncements. They have not experienced racism so they genuinely believe it does not exist.I have no racial or sexual identity biases but have in the course of my life come across people who do and are very verbal and open about it I do believe that over time there will be less and less of them. I also believe and polling supports that we will aged out of the bulk of the problem if as most people under the age 0f 45 support gay rights. Even those over 45 are becoming more open minded not all but some which is a start.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      I already am in fact, that’s much of the same thing that I did with the racial shit for years.

      That doesn’t mean the rest of the world thinks the way I do, though, that’s realistic.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 10:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @getreal:

      Well, thinking that we live in a “post-racial” America is naive and idealistic, to be more precise. Nothing wrong with idealism and imagination, nothing would get done without it.

      I mean, that’s like thinking that homophobia will cease to be once gay people have full legal equality. It won’t.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      But at least, it will take the “teeth” out of the “bite”. lol

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      @Chitown Kev: NO “homophobia” is Equality.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chance:

      Then I doubt that we will ever have “equality” as you define it.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Chitown Kev: I was thinking the same thing. I think I absolutely have legal equality but racism still exists.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Would that the LGBT community at least had the legal equality.

      Aug 6, 2009 at 11:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SM
      SM

      Forget the NAACP. Forget EQCA. Forget bigoted churches. All of that noise takes your focus off your goal.

      Plow ahead with your agenda pulling energy from your supporters. Do you see all the wingnuts showing up at the townhall meetings? When has the LGBT community ever done that in mass? Your civil rights are on the line? Hello?

      Moveon.org helped put Obama in the White House. They are experts at exactly what you all need which is a dose of reality on what it takes to win. Churches are making a big deal about LGBT people because its a political wedge issue. Once you win, they will taper off and start to grow up. Forget them because if you focus on your goal and build on your supporters, they will sink themselves.

      Your EDNA fight is about to be a reality. Is the LGBT community ready for it?

      The Courage Campaign is part of Moveon.org is it not? Which means they have access to the millions of moveon.org members that helped elect Obama. They may be straight, but they love to phone bank etc.

      I do not work for these people but it is fantastic if they are picking up your agenda because its an organization millions of straight people allready support that may not be apart of HRC, EQCA on their own.

      Moveon.org movie

      Aug 7, 2009 at 5:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      Black Vs. Gay

      The Comments on this site and others are “conversstions.” I suggest they should be conversations for possibility. That means we should all participate in a willingness to seek understanding AND solutions.

      Blacks and Gays have significant “common ground” in the pursuit of equality for everyone. There is no need to compare the struggles or difficulties of either group, eventually we are all the same – as equals.

      There are some differences, but the goal is that we all wish to be treated the same – without hatred or discrimination. It is true that our history, as a Nation, includes “oppression” of blacks and it is a painful legacy. It should be noted that a majority of us have fought on behalf of equality for all and the election of a Black President is a notable accomplishment. That does not mean we are finished. Racism still exists, but the progress we’ve made should not be discounted because of some remnants of bigotry. Those of us who care are still in the fight and will be until we achieve a complete victory.

      I believe the difference for homosexuals is that we are “hated” more than we are oppressed. This hate prevents equality. Until we end that hate, we will never be equal. For both Blacks and Gays we must seek to understand the source of the hatred and confront it. We must face it and reject it, because it is a “lie.” If we are reluctant to do that we can only blame ourselves for our plight.

      As a society we have been discouraged from having meaningful conversations about religion – it is taboo. That taboo must end. If we look “objectively” at the history of Blacks we recognize that religion actually sanctioned slavery with “biblical” authority. Martin Luther King Jr. referred to that as a “lie.” Something in the Bible was a lie. Eventually most religions rejected that lie and all biblical references to slavery. If that had not been done, we could not have changed history.

      There is another “lie” Religion must reject – the one about homosexuals. We are not “sinners, wrong and deviant.” That lie has been the source of all hatred and discrimantion of homosexuals and it has defined us for 2,000 years. It created false beliefs that prevent our equality and determine our fate. It must be corrected. Gays must make a stand and correct the record by admitting AND declaring WE ARE NOT WRONG.

      Blacks and Gays have many reasons to work together to end hatred – all hatred. Racism IS hatred. The common denominator of our “different” struggles is hate and the results are the same. We must end ALL hatred, without question or compromise.

      It is indeed troubling that the NAACP will not take a stand against the hatred of gays and lesbians. They are reluctant to do so because of the “religious beliefs” of their leaders and their members. That is not acceptable. If the rejection of slavery continued to be rationalized by religion the civil rights movement would have forced the end religion. Religion saved itself by changing, and it MUST change again. It must vacate the hateful and hurtful condemnation of homosexuals and support equality or its continued existence should be challenged.

      Ultimately, we must all go “on the record” and take a stand for full equality for each and every person. Nothing should cloud our commitment to fairness or allow us to rationalize selective hatred – not even Religion. The NAACP and other organizations must take a stand, they must choose equality and end their “unfair silence.” Time is of the essence.

      If we are serious about equality we will put Equality BEFORE Religion and grow as a society – a society of equals. That is the elusive “solution” to GLBT rights. For too many years the equality movement has languished in “competing interests” and the failure to confront the source of hatred – religious doctrine.

      I have begun to understand the absolute necessity to engage in the fight against the “beliefs” that continue to harm us – religious beliefs. I think it is time to refocus our attention away from the “believers” and work to end those harmful beliefs.

      Finally, I would remind anyone who truly cares about our plight to remember this: each year hundreds of gay teens commit suicide because they believe they are “wrong” or “deviant” or “sinners.” Those beliefs cause them to take their own lives. Others are murdered (Tel Aviv GLBT Teen Center) for the same religious beliefs. This should enrage each and every one of us to reject those beliefs and re-define who we really are. None of this will be easy, it wasn’t easy ending slavery either, but it must be done. To not stand up for ourselves will encourage and approve more hatred, discrimination and innocent deaths. That should NEVER be tolerated. It is time to end the “idea” that we are “wrong, sinners or deviant.” Religion must change again – willingly or forcefully, because our equality is more important.

      Aug 7, 2009 at 9:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @schlukitz:

      Most definitely.

      Thing is, I think the way the human mind works is that things get categorized; it’s the only way to make sense out of the world. The categories and moral weight of, say, category x or y can vary in quantity or (what’s a good word for this?) moral weight but,in an epistemological sense, people (and animals, for that matter) will “discriminate” or categorize. That’s not a bad thing. it’s the only way to make sense. Now the moral weight that is applied to those categories–that we need to change.

      Aug 7, 2009 at 10:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark

      Game over.

      NAACP has been neutered by Religion.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 10:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Andrew W: That should NEVER be tolerated. It is time to end the “idea” that we are “wrong, sinners or deviant.” Religion must change again – willingly or forcefully, because our equality is more important.

      ________________________________________________

      You seem to be saying that people of faith should give up that faith just so that you can be lulled into the delusion that “it’s ok to be gay”.

      In other words you are demanding tolerance of your homosexuality whilst denying tolerance of “religion”.

      Can you see the irony now?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 12:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @youcanthandlethetruth: Religion is a choice, being gay is not. Therefore your church is choosing hate and bigotry and that has nothing to do with gay people. Gay people just want to live there lives in peace but your churches make that very difficult. Money and Hate machines is what they are and it is in fact a choice.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @InExile: Your post is not only inaccurate, it doesn’t make sense.

      There is not one shred of evidence that homosexuality is a genetic behaviour. Homosexuals make choices to act on their deviant sexual yearnings.

      Yes religion is also a choice, you are right about that. But “religion” (as you homosexuals love to generalise) is not about hate and bigotry.

      In the case of Christianity it’s about recognising the existence of God as the Creator of the Universe, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It’s about taking a principled stand and trying to live in accordance with God’s wishes.

      If you choose to reject “religion” in favour of a homosexual lifestyle that is your choice.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Duncan Behines
      Duncan Behines

      HE IS ABSOULTELY RIGHT. THE GAY COMMUNITY AND MORE SPECIFICALLY, THE GAY WHITE COMMUNITY CAME TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY TOO LATE. THE GAY WHITE COMMUNITY HAS NOT INVESTED ANY TIME AND HAVE NOT BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE BLACK COMMUNITY UNTIL PROP 8 PASSED. THE GAY WHITE COMMUNITY IS ONLY CONCERNED WITH OTHER RACES WHEN THEY NEED SOMETHING. DON’T GO RUNNING OT THE NAACP NOW AND GET UPSET BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT BACK YOU. AND AS FAR AS GAY ACTIVISTS SUPPORTING BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS. YOU MUST BE KIDDING. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO STONEWALL WITHOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WHICH WAS LEAD BY BLACK PEOPLE. GAY WHITE ACTIVISTS JUST JUMPED ON BOARD. QUEERTY, YOU BETTER GET REAL.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Duncan Behines
      Duncan Behines

      JUST WANTED TO ADD THE GAY WHITE COMMUNITY SHOULD HAVE JUMPED ON BOARD WITH THE NAACP LONG AGO. YOU REALLY DO NEED BLACK PEOPLE BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE GET IT DONE. TRUST ME IF THERE WAS A THOUSAND BLACK PEOPLE PROTESTING INSTEAD OF 1000 WHITE PEOPLE PROP 8 WOULD NOT HAVE PASSED.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Duncan Behines: The fact is most black Americans oppose the redefinition of marriage for homosexuals, even in “liberal” California.

      Moreover most black Americans don’t see a parallel between their fight for civil rights and the demands of homosexuals.

      Homosexuals were never slaves, never subject to legalised apartheid, never lynched, never denied the vote and who are able to lead privileged lives in prominent positions.

      I wonder why the unruly No On 8 mobs didn’t take their protests to Florence and Normandy or South Central instead of spraying graffiti on some Mormon churches in posh Santa Monica?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Don
      Don

      Most gay people are RACISTS and most people of color are HOMOPHOBIC. It’s just a fact. It really is a mutual feeling.Why can’t we just stop looking for validation from each other.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      It’s ridiculous to try and equate race with a sexual deviation.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      @youcanthandlethetruth: No, I am saying the religious “LIE” about homosexuality should be stopped.

      You believing in God is the same as someone who believe Elvis is alive, but we don’t challenge the religious claims. If someone says “Elvis is alive” they are deemed crazy. We don’t “tolerate” your beliefs – we laugh at them. You seem to think that some “beliefs” are protected from free speech or reason. They are not. Opinions and beliefs are not sacred. Reasonable people use “reason” and understand the nature of “facts.”

      It is an undeniable fact that religion has defined gays with the lie that homosexuality is wrong. Another “lie” that has since been dismissed by religion was the appropriateness of “slavery.” Was that a lie? Maybe a misunderstanding? The Bible (God’s word) supports slavery and indeed promotes it. Religion stopped and even apologized. So, according to religion certain “parts” of God’s word are all fucked up and should be ignored. How could that be? Imperfect word of God?

      The Homos are next. We have “tolerated” the branding by religion for way too long. It’s time to end that wrong. We will throw that belief in the junkyard already inhabited by Greek Gods, a flat earth, and numerous biblical silliness.

      So, you are correct, I am not going to tolerate your obvious lunacy or the biblical definition of homosexuals.

      You don’t have to agree with my understanding of what homosexuals actually are – equal human beings. The difference is I have evidence, my gay friends and lesbians. You, have nothing but an old book selectively interpreted.

      Tell me, do YOU believe Elvis is still alive? I can make some calls.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Andrew W: Thanks for exposing your lack of tolerance towards people of faith.

      Comparing the existence of God to Elvis is rather stupid and completely irrelevant.

      And believing that there is some kind of rational basis for a sexual deviation like homosexuality is equally ludicrous.

      The fact is most homosexuals have to try and discredit every major world religion in order to try and sustain the delusion that it’s “ok to be gay”.

      Then you have to re-invent the English language, redefine marriage, invert logic, disregard the laws of Nature and ignore human instinct and millenia if human wisdom!

      You are the ones living in a dream world.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 1:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      @youcanthandlethetruth:

      Child, didn’t I see you on manhunt last night?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 2:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Anthony in Nashville: What’s manhunt? Some kind of homosexual dating show?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 2:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @youcanthandlethetruth: We live in a country that embraces freedom of, and freedom from, religion. Legislating along people’s religious beliefs flies in the face of tolerance. You are free to believe whatever you want, but when you encourage laws to reflect that, and limit the freedom of other citizens to have equal protection under the law, that is fundamentally wrong. The bible advocates separation of church and state on many occasions and this is no different. No one is forcing churches to perform weddings that they don’t condone according to scripture or even to change their teachings against homosexuality, we just want to be treated equally under the law. By outlawing same-sex marriage you are restricting the religious rights of numerous churches (some Christian) that have a view that homosexuality is morally neutral and would perform same sex marriages. If anything you should be arguing for the government to get out of the marriage business as a whole if you believe that it is a religious sacrament. In addition, you should argue that atheists can’t get married considering that there would be no God in that union because they do not believe.

      As for your argument about some sort of natural law, there is homosexuality in nature and sexuality is on a spectrum. People and animals identifying as gay or engaging homosexual sex and partnering are an occurrence of natural variance. The only reason homosexuality is painted as unnatural or abnormal is due to often patriarchal and misogynistic dogmas created by man to have control over the masses and not by God. Other societies throughout history have embraced homosexual people as full members of society instead of making them a convenient other to label as deviant and galvanize the rest of society under a false sense of morality.

      Marriage as a legal contract should be available to all legal adults who are unrelated and would like to share property, custody of children, and power of attorney while sharing their lives as a romantic and familial coupling. Not extending this legal contract without a bias to the sex of the members involved is discriminatory. I personally think the government shouldn’t call anything marriage and that should just be a religious ceremony. The government should have jurisdiction over civil unions for homosexual and heterosexual couples who can later choose to have a religious marriage/commitment ceremony.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 2:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • duttybarb
      duttybarb

      Andrew..this is the same nonsense your people have been spewing for years…no luck convincing anyone huh? Time for a new tactic, dear.

      Homosexuality is the only sin that does not appear to be a sin in the bible right? What about lying or stealing or killing…i mean that must be wrong too.

      NAACP won support gay marriage because blacks are really religious. Unlike their white brothers..they do not compromise God’s Word. No black gay clergy(hehehe) can serve in a black church..they would neva allow that nonsense., how much more gay marriage? Good luck convincing them

      Aug 8, 2009 at 2:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • duttybarb
      duttybarb

      KD108…you actually have a point. No one should shove their beliefs down anyone’s throats. You believe what you believe. The problem however is your people are tying to stain into my beliefs. Marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman…not related. That is the standard. That is the norm.

      If gays want to celebrate their relationship..find another way. Do not come and tell me that marriage is for you too because that is not true. You do not have the right to destroy what marriage represents..

      Aug 8, 2009 at 2:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @KD108: We can’t legislate on religious beliefs, but you think we should legislate on homosexual beliefs?!?

      Marriage is for one man and one woman as a way to legitimise children and form a foundation for a family.

      Why do we need to legitimise a homosexual coupling which can never produce anything?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 2:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @duttybarb:

      “Unlike their white brothers..they do not compromise God’s Word.”

      As many black women that have children out of wedlock (to cite one example) I don’t know where you come up with that bullshit.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      @youcanthandlethetruth: Believing your so-called Christian “truth” is the same as someone believing Elvis is alive. Both arguments have NO evidence. Both are delusional.

      That’s why you can’t have a rational discussion about religion – because you bring no evidence to the conversation. It isn’t about tolerance, it’s about evidence.

      I freely admit people believe goofy religious stories, but that doesn’t make them true or even BELIEVABLE. What is true is the FACT that religion is the ONLY thing that has defined homosexuals as wrong, sinners or deviant. Nothing in science, nature or anything else does.

      You can believe in Chrisitianity, Elvis being alive or even a Disney Movie (I like Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs), but that belief doesn’t make it true. They are stories.

      Soon, you will be a cranky relic of a difficult past. Religion will fade away and newer smarter people will wonder “what were they thinking.” Similar to how we view Greek Mythology. Except I think some of those idols were hot – Poseidon was hot. Hotter than your Jesus hanging at the Cathedral. Look it up, you’ll see.

      Oh, tell Elvis I said hello.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 3:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      @duttybarb: You said: “Homosexuality is the only sin that does not appear to be a sin in the bible right? What about lying or stealing or killing…i mean that must be wrong too.”

      What about Slavery, fuckface? Your Bible loves slavery.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 3:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: I agree. Some of my friends are Black, and Pastors and Gay. Big dicks, too.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 3:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:

      Let’s get this right, this is not intended as an anti-black comment, but I do get offended when Dutty Barb and those of his/her ilk want to use the supposed greater religiosity of the black community to suit their bigoted agenda.

      Black religious people can be (and often are) just as hypocritical about religion as white people.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 3:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      @Andrew W: Your repeated christiophobic bigotry, disrespect and intolerance is duly noted.

      Again.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 3:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      @youcanthandlethetruth: Your repeated displays of thoughtlessness, belief in the unbelievable and complete failure to stay sufficiently medicated is duly noted.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 4:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @youcanthandlethetruth: I’m not saying that we’re supposed to legislate “homosexual beliefs”, your supposed to legislate equality. I don’t care if you legitimize my relationships because they’re legitimate to me, the point is that the government has a responsibility to treat everyone equally under the law, and if I decide to have a family with someone I should be able to protect my family under the law the same as a heterosexual person. My sexual organs don’t stop being able to reproduce just because I’m gay so the arguments about procreation are null and void. Plenty of married heterosexuals don’t have kids, are infertile, or need the aid of a surrogate or adoption to have children but we still give their relationships legal priority. Studies have shown that homosexual parents are just as capable of child rearing so there is just no basis to deny legal recognition of that family.

      You as an individual don’t need to legitimize anything, but the government has a responsibility to protect their citizens equally under the law regardless of their sexual orientation. Once again, I don’t think the government should be in the business of legitimizing a social/religious construction such as marriage just like it doesn’t give you a special certificate for taking first communion or making you a legal adult for having a bar mitzvah. There is no legal reason why I can’t make a contract stating legal responsibility for another adult but someone else can and they get preferential treatment because of that.

      In order to marry there is no precedent that the couple be able to produce children or even have the intent to produce children, so there is no reason that a homosexual couple can’t marry but a heterosexual one can. Unless, of course, you want to invoke a moral judgement about that coupling which the government has no right to do.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 4:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KD108
      KD108

      @duttybarb: I agree, it’s a religious institution and no one should come along and force it to change. However, the government has no business in religious institutions to begin with due to the separation of church and state. The government has no right to legitimize one type of religious familial union but not another. Heterosexuals can get married in a church with one man and one woman under God, but if you don’t get a certificate from the GOVERNMENT validating that, it doesn’t matter. The government should recognize ALL unions by granting a CIVIL UNION LICENSE and all of the benefits thereof, and if you want a MARRIAGE you can go to a CHURCH.

      If you can’t make it fair, don’t do it at all… how about we get rid of government preference of some relationships but not others, get rid of government marriage licenses and people can have whatever religious ceremony they want to… how would you anti-gay marriage people feel about that?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 4:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew W
      Andrew W

      @KD108: “Procreation” or reproducing was the reason Religion made homosexuality wrong 2,000 years ago. They wanted to “save the seed of man” (sperm) to make more Jews, Christians and Muslims so they COULD KILL EACH OTHER.

      That is the only reason homosexuality was made wrong. Before then, it was okay and even cool to be a homo.

      I know you are concerned about “legalization” or legal rights, but those rights aren’t coming until we change the those RELIGIOUS beliefs. Sooner or later Equality means people vote and we win. Gays and Lesbians have NEVER won a popular vote – never. The main reason is people BELIEVE what they have been taught (some would correctly say brainwashed) by Religion and vote accordingly.

      We have to end the idea that homosexuals are wrong. We must also re-brand homosexuality by re-introducing ourselves to religiously-infected straight people. When they know us, they are likely to support us.

      The good news about religion is that it is weakening for the past 60 years (as long as Gallup has been tracking it) and that half of self-defined “religious” persons believe it as an “ideal,” and not the truth. We need to get that group to join the non-religious (20%) and spiritual (20%). These three groups equal almost two-thirds of the voting public – enough to get our equality.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 4:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @duttybarb: Gays do not want religious marriage they want civil marriage which is the rights given by the government. Many of us do not care what the rights are called.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      Let’s get this right, this is not intended as an anti-black comment, but I do get offended when Dutty Barb and those of his/her ilk want to use the supposed greater religiosity of the black community to suit their bigoted agenda.

      That, sad to say, is precisely the intent DuttyBarb has for posting on these threads…to be offensive s possible.

      Despite another regular poster on these threads who defended DuttyBarb, she is no different from youcanthandlethetruth who also seems to be as offensive as possible in his posts.

      Neither is as altruistic in their desire to “save souls” as they would have us believe. Both function like alter egos and could in fact, be one and the same.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Andrew W:

      What about Slavery, fuckface? Your Bible loves slavery.</i?

      Truth be known, she probably approves of it and would like to see it’s return. Then she could sit on her fat ass and do absolutely nothing all day but devour McDonalds hamburgers with french fries and milkshakes and post offending comments on Queerty.

      Oh wait. She’s already doing that…all by herself!

      God bless her. (No one else will).

      Aug 8, 2009 at 5:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @schlukitz: Is it true she weighs 375 pounds, has front, back, and side acne and keeps her gay son locked in the basement? God could not be happy with that!

      Aug 8, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      I don’t know where you come up with that bullshit.

      I’m sure that you have noticed that people like Dutty and YCHTT never validate anything they “claim” with empirical evidence.

      No quotes. No links. No magazine articles. Just quotes from a collection of ravings of 2,000 year and older lunatics and madmen that there is no proof of their existence of, is all they have to offer, which requires the suspension of all reason and logic and the denial of scientific discovery and empirical evidence.

      Offering us a Creationist’s view a young, 6,000 year old earth, despite radio-carbon dating and a fossil-record that proves the earth to be millions of years old, is a perfect example. They just pluck it out of thin air and offer it as the “Truth”. And YCHTT tosses around words like credibility?

      The only description that truly fits closed-minded, numb-skulls like this, is “incredible”.

      I also love the way they pluck their gods, angels, saviors and a host of other non-exist entities…out of thin air.

      And the beauty of this whole conjured up fairytale, is that you can use one non-existent entity to “prove” the existence of another non-existent entity.

      Of course, in order to believe in religion, one must be willing to suspend the laws of physics, as well.

      Miraculous conceptions without sexual intercourse. That alone says something about their disgust for the necessary body functions of animals to propagate the species.

      Moses parting the sea.

      Healing terminally ill people.

      A dead man coming back to life.

      A soul ascending to heaven.

      A couple loaves of bread and two fish fish multiplying into more loaves and fish for Jesus to feed the multitude of 5,000.

      Noah building an arc, out of wood, large enough to hold pairs of every species of living thing on the planet including dinosaurs and prehistoric reptiles, not to mention all the food and fresh water it would take to care for such a collection of animals for 140 days until the Arc came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

      Enough water to completely immerse the entire planet during the flood. Where did all of this extra water come from? Oh wait…from the heavens. So, if the clouds ever all decide to rain themselves out at the same time, guess, we’ll have another biblical flood, eh?

      And, that’s only the beginning.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @InExile:

      Is it true she weighs 375 pounds

      Funny you should mention that. I recently watched a program on cable TV about a Mexican man who holds the world record as the heaviest man and clocks in at 1275 lbs.

      He is so fat, that his legs are splayed at a 180 degree arc from his body and must remain hanging over each side of the special bed with overhead iron rails so that he can lift himself up to move about. Other than that limited amount of movement, he is unable to leave his bed and every single function of life, must be performed in it.

      Dutty came to mind as I watched this grotesque testimony to gluttony.

      Suck up a few more of those double-pounders at McDonalds, Dutty. Maybe even a couple of triple-pounders while you are at it.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpDJpg2eW4o

      Just do it!

      Aug 8, 2009 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @schlukitz: I wish I could indulge like her but I have to watch my figure. Those triple deluxe cheeseburgers look so good! LOL

      Aug 8, 2009 at 6:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      FuddyDutty said:

      KD108…you actually have a point.

      Wow. She actually conceded a point to you, but she quickly took it away, however.

      No one should shove their beliefs down anyone’s throats.

      Then why does she consistently do it?

      You believe what you believe. God forbid that she could actually live by those words.

      The problem however is your people are tying to stain into my beliefs.

      The only thing getting stained here, is her undies from having forgotten to shove a Tampax up her twat.

      Marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman…not related.

      Only because you say so. Da bible doesn’t count.

      That is the standard.

      Only according to your religion.

      That is the norm.

      Define “norm”. It’s only a concept, like God, money, holy-water, etc.

      If gays want to celebrate their relationship..find another way.

      We have. It’s called civil-unions, a purely secular affair that has nothing to do with organized religion, but you and your ilk does not want to see that to happen either. You keep overlooking the fact that we are not looking for the blessing of either the church or God. So what other reason could you have for the joining of two people in love?

      Do not come and tell me that marriage is for you too because that is not true.

      And don’t you dare to tell us what is for us or what is true. Who the fuck do you think you are? God?

      You do not have the right to destroy what marriage represents..

      And exactly what does marriage “represent” besides your worn out cliché that marriage should be between one man and one woman?

      You don’t own marriage anymore than you own the air we breathe, the water we drink and the planet we walk upon. You never did.

      So get over yourself and stop trying to tell us that you do..

      Aug 8, 2009 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @InExile:

      Those triple deluxe cheeseburgers look so good! LOL

      Lordy. Even on my best day, I could never get a double-pounder down, let alone a triple-pounder. LOL

      Aug 8, 2009 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @schlukitz: They look so delicious, guess I’m jealous of her. It just isn’t worth the back, front, and side acne. Doesn’t hurt to dream……….

      Aug 8, 2009 at 7:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @youcanthandlethetruth:

      Why do we need to legitimise a homosexual coupling which can never produce anything?

      That’s a tired cliché, Mortimer. I won’t call it an argument…because it’s not.

      Give it a rest.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 7:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @schlukitz:

      And how is allowing gays to marry “destroying marriage” for the cunty twins? We are allowing them not to get married or not allowing them to have children within the context of that marriage.

      What are we destroying, exactly? Maybe it’s your oversized sense of supriority.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark C.
      Mark C.

      @Chitown Kev: RE: Black and Religious.

      From Gallup: “In general, it appears that black Americans may be conflicted in their attitudes toward certain values issues such as same-sex marriage and homosexual relations. Despite the liberal orientation of the Democratic Party toward moral issues, blacks, perhaps because of their high degree of religiosity, are pulled in the other, more conservative direction that is typical of Republicans. In the case of same-sex marriage, it appears that the power of religion in shaping black attitudes, coupled with the fact that black turnout in California was driven up in general because of the high-profile candidacy of Barack Obama for president, helped push Proposition 8 to victory.”

      The full Report: http://www.gallup.com/poll/112807/Blacks-Conservative-Republicans-Some-Moral-Issues.aspx

      Aug 8, 2009 at 8:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      What are we destroying, exactly? Maybe it’s your oversized sense of supriority.

      Umm…huh?

      Exactly where did I say that allowing gays to marry is destroying marriage??? InExile and I are in the vanguard of gay people who are actively campaigning for same-sex marriage so that we can be with our bi-national partners.

      And would you mind telling me what was it that I said to you that deserved such a deprecating and belittling remark about my oversized sense of superiority?

      Aug 8, 2009 at 9:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Mark C.: Gallup was mostly wrong. Here is some of the relevant data from the US Census Bureau Quick Facts for California.

      Population, 2008 estimate 36,756,666

      Persons under 18 years old, percent, 2007 25.7%
      Persons 65 years old and over, percent, 2007 11.0%

      (The larger the age gap, the faster we’ll win.)

      White persons (they mean either pink persons or Euroamericans) 2007 76.8%
      Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, 2007 (b) 36.2%
      Asian persons, percent, 2007 12.4% 4.4%
      Black persons (African Americans) 2007 6.7% (12.8% nationally)
      American Indian and Alaska Native persons, 2007 1.2%
      Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2007 0.4%

      Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2007 2.5%

      http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html

      What Gallup got right is Obama’s role, and that of McCain. Obama was the key to our defeat. His bigot call to arms “gawd’s in the mix” galvanized and encouraged bigots to vote their bigotry. When the anti-GLBT Prop 6 was defeated in California 31 years ago it was partly because Carter, Governor Jerry Brown and Ronald Reagan opposed it and because groups like LACABI and BACABI made it a point to reach out to every one in California, not just pink persons.

      It was not the African American vote that beat us or even tipped the scales in 2008. It was christians, including liberal christians, opposed to same sex marriage. Most of them were Euroamericans and Latinos, many were Republicans and some were Democrats and independent liberals.

      The two most important characteristics determining the vote were party identification and ideology…

      The third most important characteristic determining the vote was religiosity. Those attending religious services every week, supported Prop 8 by 70% while those attending once a month opposed it by 52% and those hardly ever attending opposed it by 70%.

      The fourth most important characteristic determining the vote was age. All the ages groups opposed Prop 8, except for those 65+ who supported it by 67%. As importantly, when compared to another marriage initiative in California in 2000 (the Knight initiative), all age groups increased their support of same sex marriage equality in 2008—except for those 65 years of age or older.

      Race, it turns out, was far from determinative. The votes of African-Americans and Latinos was described better by using the variable of religiosity. That is, minorities who attended church regularly were far more likely to vote yes than an unreligious member of the same community.

      http://www.calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7787

      African Americans didn’t defeat us – Obama did.

      ]Democrats are Republicans in drag.

      With Democrats like this who needs Republicans.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 9:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark C.
      Mark C.

      @Bill Perdue: I agree. My point was that Blacks, when voting, tend to be much more conservative (almost identical to republicans) regarding “moral” issues. I read it as Blacks having a “more serious belief” than the typical white Catholic. The same comparison would (closely) be evangelicals compared to catholics.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 9:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @schlukitz:

      That was not directed at you but at the cuntybarbs. That statement is directed at them (as the defenders of “traditional marriage”

      sorry for my miscommunication.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 9:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Mark C.:

      I am aware of that poll. That wasn’t my point.

      My point was more so the hypocrisy of the religious position (some bible verses are apparently more important than others).

      Trust me, just because black people show this higher “religiosity” (as that poll does show) doesn’t mean that many in black communities aren’t also hypocritical in the application of said beliefs. Trust me, I havw no problem calling out black communities on that hypocrisy.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Chitown Kev:

      “have”

      Aug 8, 2009 at 10:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark C.
      Mark C.

      @Chitown Kev: It is the religious beliefs that determined the vote on Prop 8. I said Blacks and Hispanics voted at a much higher rate than whites. Whites were split 50/50 while Blacks voted “yes” 58% and Hispanics 59% according to the study referenced above.

      This is related to the whole “NAACP is Neutered by Religion” sentiment expressed in these comments. That is why the will not take a stand for our Equality – they are too busy fighting about religion. They should take a vote. Whatever the result. It would be telling.

      I do agree with you that hypocrisy knows no color or denomination.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 10:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Mark C.:

      Yeah, my point was specifically about the religious hypocrisy.

      By the way, when there were a number of antigay initiatives on the ballot in the Midwest in 2004, WHITES voted at a higher percentage for anti-gay initiatives than BLACKS. In the south, blacks and whites voted at about even percentages for anti-gay initiatives.

      With Prop 8, you are correct, as the same would be with Amendment 2 in Florida. That lends a little more to Bill Perdue’s thesis that Obama catered to those elements for his election and brough out more minority voters that are also social conservatives.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 10:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      No problem. And thanks for clarifying that for me.

      Now that I re-read your comment, I see that it was spoken as an aside.

      Sorry for my misinterpretation of your meaning. :o)

      Aug 8, 2009 at 10:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lex
      Lex

      Blacks clearly run the US.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 11:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Chitown Kev: @Mark C.:

      “Bill Perdue’s thesis that Obama catered to those elements for his election and brough out more minority voters that are also social conservatives…” If I gave anyone that impression I messed up somewhere. I think that Obama’s blatant bigotry, telling other bigots that the Big Sky Thunderer was on their side, brought out bigots of all ethnicities, but the largest numbers of them were religious Euroamericans and Latinos.

      The African American vote was a small part of the vote. Given the religious voters galvanized by Obama, even if all African Americans bothered to vote, and voted as a bloc they still wouldn’t have tipped the scales against us.

      There are several side issues.

      1. No on 8 deliberately ignored the advice of activists to pass out brochures in ‘minority’ communities, at job sites and to mobilize on college campuses. They gave the christer bigots a free ride in minority communities, leaving the field of battle with out contesting it. The votes in those communities are their fault entirely.

      2. Controlled by Democrats and the wealthy GLBT elite, EQCA and No on 8 disdained appealing to LGBT and straight working people.

      3. They ran a “non-gay” closeted campaign, hiring straight Democrats as political consultants to run it.

      4. They feared taking on the religious right; “gosh, let’s be positive and not offend anyone” and “if we say it about rights nobody will know it’s about gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered right”. People knew. Unfortunately the only ones talking about it and mobilizing their allies were the bigots goaded by Obama’s raw bigotry.

      The Democrats and movement hustlers who ran No on 8 committed political suicide and pulled us under the bus with them.

      Aug 8, 2009 at 11:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Bill Perdue:

      Well, yes, those were all of the issues.

      I wasn’t implying that the African American vote was decisive in California. I only meant to compare the 2004 white/black percentages (which were nearly identical OR whites actually voted at a higher percentage to ban gay marriage than blacks in all but one case) to the percentages in 2008.

      Aug 9, 2009 at 6:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Gurlene
      Gurlene

      Whad’up Kev? Happy Sunday.

      Aug 9, 2009 at 6:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark C.
      Mark C.

      @Bill Perdue: Yes. My comments (again) were not to suggest that the Minority vote was responsible for Prop 8 passing. It is just interesting how the Black and Hispanic vote look very similar to conservative Republicans when it’s a “moral” issue.

      Religion Hurts.

      Aug 9, 2009 at 11:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Mark C.:

      In fact, I’d have to find the study that they did on the Proposal 2 campaign in Michigan but that did not happen in Michigan at all. Since we are discussing votes as opposed to polls, you need to be looking at election returns.

      Here, I found it!

      http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/3/8/5/0/pages138509/p138509-9.php

      Aug 9, 2009 at 11:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Gurlene:

      Happy Sunday to you, Gurlene

      Aug 9, 2009 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      The homosexual agenda is so negative and destructive.

      They want to eliminate religious faith – the very thing that has given hope to billions of people over thousands of years.

      Hope not just for this life but for the next life too.

      And a vision of how this Earth and this Universe was created.

      And they want to replace all that with what?

      A belief that homosexuality is not deviant. False “families” consisting of homosexual couples adopting other people’s babies. The violation of marriage and the family.

      Why on earth would normal people want to buy into such a futile, pointless objective?

      Aug 9, 2009 at 4:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @youcanthandlethetruth: < Terminally infected.

      Aug 9, 2009 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @youcanthandlethetruth:

      Shut the fuck up, your breath stinks.

      Aug 9, 2009 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youcanthandlethetruth
      youcanthandlethetruth

      Andy and Kev – thanks for your intelligent, coherent well though-out responses.

      Is it any wonder you are losing the battle??

      Aug 9, 2009 at 5:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chitown Kev:

      Shut the fuck up, your breath stinks.

      Little wonder with so much shit emanating out of it.

      Aug 9, 2009 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      SHUT UP BEN JEALOUS – YOU DON’T HAVE ANY BALLS. NO MACHISMO. QUE LAS TIMA.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Peter
      Peter

      Any person’s faith, is “their faith”. That does not mean that it must also be my faith. Therefor, that person’s faith does not, or should not affect me. But when someone wants me to live by their faith, they have become a dictator. Where are my rights to have my faith; just as they have their rights to have their faith? This is what “equal rights” is all about. If you can be married according to your faith, where is my right to be married according to my faith?

      My faith has no effect on your faith. Faith is faith. Therefore, again, your faith should have none on mine. I am not attacking yours if you are not attacking mine.

      Or have you no faith in how our U S Constitution was written?

      Aug 11, 2009 at 10:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Peter: I think you’ve got it Peter.

      Religion made us “wrong.” We need to end that. Faith should be personal. Religion must change or go out of business.

      Aug 11, 2009 at 11:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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