Queerty is better as a member
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Because for the first time in his life, the candy store was open.
Good Bi, Mike Manning: Real World’s Formidable Queer Marches On
Mike’s not bisexual. He’s gay.
He said he was never in the guy candy store before DC. Really? Didn’t he meet and date Tanner in Colorado? The guy candy store was supposedly open for the first time in DC, but the girl candy store certainly wasn’t closed in DC. Mike just doesn’t want to buy the candy the girls are offering.
Oh please. Mike lived within spitting distance of Denver.
There are PLENTY of mos in Denver that would gladly have tapped him like a beer keg.
Yes, I would be one of them.
Who cares if he’s gay or bi or whatever…he’s a tool which makes him completely unattractive regardless.
I’m confused about the obsession with his sexuality. Maybe I’m just naive but I don’t understand why it matters if he’s gay or bi. Refusing to believe his self identified sexuality is no different than anti-gay folks claiming that homosexuality isn’t real.
“Mike’s not bisexual. He’s gay.”
Mike admits he leans more towards guys than girls. So what? If he’s still attracted to females, then he clearly cannot label himself gay, can he? Not all bisexuals are attracted to both sexes 50/50.
And I agree with Kevin. People need to lay off the dude and let him be. Nobody seems to give the female bisexual on the show any shit for her sexual orientation, so why is everybody picking on the bi guy?
I’m old school like this : attractive people can do no wrong in my eyes… (I know thats fucked up) but as long as I wanna fuck you,,,say say whatever baby lol….I’ll get over it.
The “label” argument is such a cop out. There’s never going to be a day where everyone will just have sex with everyone. That’s fucking retarded. You can’t make straight people gay and vice versa through social acceptance, or open mindedness or whatever. So, yeah—Mike and that bi-bitch should just shut the fuck up, because they’re terrible models of sexual liberation for America.
@Jai: People “pick on” Mike, because he postures about being comfortable with his sexuality, while clinging to Christianity and his “bi” label. He’s just like of a freaky jacked up Ken doll, without all his eye brow hairs.
I wouldn’t tap that creepy looking guy, his eyebrows, or what’s left of them freak me the fuck out!
is there anyway anybody can find out about tanner and mike
@leonard: Yeah, one’s a top and the other’s a bottom.
This Mike kid seriously had “bottom” tattooed across his forehead before he even said he was bi the first episode.
Last time I checked real chicks don’t have dicks.
It couldn’t be more obvious that he’s uncomfortable with his sexuality as addressed on the show itself. He plays hyper-masculine(even though he’s obviously more feminine) to cover up his insecurities, going as far to even physically hit the guys he’s interested in.
This shit is classic. I can’t believe people are still pretending to fall for it just to spread their new bisexuality mantras. No one is buying this crap from you or him.
He came from a small town where he lived all his life. Like millions of other Gays he didn’t feel comfortable flying his Gay flag full mast. Once he got to DC, he was free to sample the goods. Any other good looking guy first commin out does the same. When you are a good lookin new face, you have your basicaly can have the run of any bar. As usual here on Queerty Street jealousy rears it’s very ugly head………….
The guy was out for like three minutes and was already working with HRC (and continues to do so) on behalf of Gays. How many of those hating on Mike have even lifted a finger to help out any Gay causes?????
@terrwill: That assumes “gay causes” are the same for everyone.
What one sees as a cause others may see as a non-issue. Take the military for example. I don’t believe in war, therefore I won’t be fighting for gay rights in the military.
Take that however you want, I personally am not hating on the kid, I just can’t stand the new “Everyone is really bisexual!” mantra that seems to be so in right now.
Gee, big shock that the usual gaggle of pathetic losers dumps on Mike. Bisexuals do exist. Get over it. Just b/c the attraction is not precisely 50/50 does not mean that he is not bi. Why would a guy voluntarily come out on MTV, come out to his family, date a guy on national television, and work for HRC, but also have some huge hangup that requires him to falsely cling to a bi label?
I think bisexuals are awesome. As the girl in the vid says, this is what humanity will evolve into. So bisexuals in 2010 are ahead of their time. I would love to date one. I also wish more bisexuals would post on Queerty, if only to dilute the presence of the tired queens who dominate here now.
I could care less if Mike Manning chooses to call himself bi or gay. He’s adorable, he’s got a smokin’ body, he’s seriously sexually attracted to his own sex and he’s a terrific spokesman and role model. We need more like him and less of the petty, bitter, bitchy types who so obviously hate Christianity, themselves and anybody who doesn’t conform to old gay stereotypes.
Why are there so many bitchy queens in the gay “community”? It makes me sad to think there are soooo many.
@Tommy: Because hanging onto the bi label is perceived as more masculine and masculinity is a huge issue in the younger gay community.
Remember that the next time you or anyone else chooses to bitch about the phrase “straight acting” being thrown around.
You can’t have your cake and eat it to.
Honestly, I think he is comfortable with his sexuality, but the problem is that everyone else isn’t. That’s why the guy is having such a difficult time because a ton of folks are telling him what kind of guy he is and what sex he should be attracted to. It’s not up to anyone to decide what he is into. Just like it’s no one’s job to tell you what sex you should be attracted to.
Oh and I find it so amusing how many people speak on behalf of this kid without ever having actually watched the show.
If any of you who thinks he’s bisexual did you’d know very well that he’s gay because he’s admitted such numerous times throughout the season.
He also admitted he’s been struggling with his masculinity and doesn’t want to be perceived as feminine. He doesn’t like queeny gays to put it bluntly. He’s one of the “straight acting” crowd.
So I can’t help but laugh at the “defense” that claims the opposite of everything that has come out of his own mouth.
A true bisexual male could have had a field day in DC because as a gay male who lived in DC for over 5 years I can tell you women hope and pray for a straight man to come sweep them off their feet. He’s had a taste of what he really wants, sausage, he’s not going back to fish. Get over it.
I watched the entire season and having been out for close to 15 years I don’t believe Mike is “bi”. His action are classic creeping out of the closet and getting comfortable in his own skin. What I don’t understand is it is 2010 and he makes it seem so hard to come out. Hasn’t MTV been doing the same REAL WORLD gay storyline for the past 20 years? I can’t believe it is still so hard for Mike’s generation. I thought it was supposed to be easier. At least there have been gay images for the past decade. I didn’t have anything growing up and I didn’t have trouble coming out 15 years ago.
“A true bisexual male could have had a field day in DC because as a gay male who lived in DC for over 5 years I can tell you women hope and pray for a straight man to come sweep them off their feet.”
LOL! Yeah, but bi guys are not “straight” are they? Most girls, like many gay guys, have major issues with men who are bisexual. That’s probably the biggest reason why most bisexual men either choose the gay or straight label instead of just being honest with their sexuality.
Men are easier to pick up than women. In a room with 10 men, 9 will put out. In a room with 10 women, you’d be lucky to get 1 to put out. That’s why there is so much aggression on the straight scene, wherein a large number of men have to compete for a very limited number of women who are prepared to make themselves sexually available.
Bi men will often be seen with men because men are easier to pick up. It’s simple math.
That BS in regards to women in DC.
They put out within hours of meeting you. They’re much easier to get with than any of the gay men in DC who are looking for someone specific and if you don’t fit the bill they won’t even glace at you.
It’s one thing to talk about DC without having lived there, it’s another thing to be from DC.
All women in DC do is whine about how every man is either gay or taken. A large majority of them are desperate and clingy. I know this because I tried to befriend a women in DC and they ended up deciding I was dating them and I ran away screaming when I realized they wanted to go to my place to have sex.
Like I said, he would’ve had a field day. They’d have been all over him if he actually wanted any of them in the first place. They wouldn’t have cared if he was bi as long as he was into them too.
Well there’s that and the fact that he wouldn’t have had to say he was “bi” to them at any point in time. He was there to have fun, his own words, so there’s no need to tell all your business either.
Honestly the proof was in every episode. He didn’t want a woman or he would’ve had one.
The ugliest guy on the show came home with at least one desperate ass DC female night after night. Give me a break.
Well maybe Mike didn’t want to bring home a woman because he already had a man in the pipeline. Have you ever thought of that?
Mike has said he is oriented towards both genders. He’s bisexually oriented. Deal with it.
My straight women friends were having a lot of sex when I lived in DC. It is a myth that women are not as sexual as men. It is just that you have to be attractive to them.
Given how Mike looks , they would probably have slept with him. He seemed like the standard white bread guy they would have loved.
I have a friend who really is bi, and he’s married to a woman that he picked up in DC. My point is- yeah, I don’t know the guy, but I am not buying he could not find any women to sleep with if he wanted or that this was his first exposure to gay men on a larger scale.
Some men really are bi, and others are just bi on the way to gay. I can’t say which one he is, but the reasoning is typical bi on the way to gay excuses.
@jason: That’s bullshit too. Why would he bring home men over women if he had a guy in the pipe line? Were I buy, I would be sampling both rather than one or the other if I had someone that I might settle down with later. Your comment does not pass the common sense test.
@Colby: It is much easier for Gays to come out now then even 5 years ago. MTV has been a huge positive force in showing that all Gays are not the stereotypical screamers you saw on the TVs once upon a time. Mike still has strong religious beliefs. Most likely for years he heard nothing but negativity towards the Gays from the pulpit, while realizing that he was attracted to some of the guys sitting in the pews with him. When you first come out many people use bisexuality as a crutch. When Mikes younger brother visited he pretty loudly proclaimed Mike was Bi and Mike was making out with a girl at the club when his brother was there. I have always viewed Bi as being Gay with training wheels on. Once you are comfortable with your Gay skin you can shed the Bi wheels……….However it seems there are persons who clearly identify as Bi posting here and I have zero issues with those who identify as such………..
@terrwill: The people posting here tend to be very political about the label “bi.” They can not accept that while there is a smaller percentage of men and women who are truly bi, there is also a percentage who use the label as a way to address social pressure from straight society. When i first game out, I used the label bi. I know a lot of men who did. The whole point is that straight peo do perceive of you as someone they can be “okay” around because you like women. They want to think that there is some possibility of that for some reason. I have met some legitimately bi guys, but they are rarer than the bi to gay or straight but experimenting (the later also being a subgroup).
If Mike wanted to act on his bi-ness, he had plenty of opportunities. In the first day or two he was in the house, a girl announced to him that if he wanted to have sex with her, it would be an automatic yes. She was very attractive, but Mike acted like she hadn’t even propositioned him.
In the after show, a girl was still offering to bed Mike, even knowing his full story. Mike didn’t take her up on the offer.
The girls in the house turned out to be a pretty good judge of character, and they all concluded Mike was gay. They also treated Mike’s relationship with Tanner as a love story of some kind.
I think of myself as just “me” without focusing on labels, so I probably wouldn’t have gone around telling everyone who would listen that I was bi — even if I really was.
These haters are nuts. You’d think Mike was a serial killer or rapist the way he gets shitted on.
“He said he was never in the guy candy store before DC. Really? Didn’t he meet and date Tanner in Colorado?”
Mike and Tanner were both in the closet at the time. They were “buddies” who snuck around and had a relationship behind closed doors. Obviously the candy store analogy applied to his newfound openness and the chance to sample a bunch of different goods in DC.
“I’m confused about the obsession with his sexuality.”
I’m sure Mike is confused about their obsession as well.
“He’s had a taste of what he really wants, sausage, he’s not going back to fish. Get over it.”
That may very well be true. Mike is likely still in an exploratory phase. Maybe he will end up identifying as gay should he try girls again and find that whatever attraction he thinks is there no longer truly exists. But that’s for him to decide. For now he says he’s bi and we should take him at his word.
Who cares if he is bi or gay. Who are you to judge? I watched the season and all I can say is that I wish him well and hope he is happy with being gay or bi. It’s his life. It is not ours to judge. But not with some members of our community. How shallow are you to judge? He is one of us. He has done none of us any harm.
The man took it apond himself to get involved in the community. Terriwell is correct. How many of you would get involved in the gay community once you arrived in a city? How active are you in making the community better as Mike was doing? How much do you give to gay causes or fight for gay rights? Action speak louder than words. How he acted in the last show taking his father on the gay pride march and trying to communicate with an anti gay protester showed class beyond his age. Give the man some credit.
What is the point of being hateful and hurtful? This says more about your character then about who Mike is as a person. We talk about love within our community and then we resort to this. May those who find fault find peace in their heart and love toward another of our brothers. Peace be with you.
As long as he is having a good time and being safe, that is all that matters. Do you really care if he’s gay or bi when he’s going down on you? That’s what I thought. And he better be safe. 1 in 7 gay/bi/”straight” guys in DC has HIV/AIDS (stop getting drunk and have sober sex for crying out loud with a condom and lube – and perhaps actually date guys – dinner, movie, picnic, car ride in the countryside, etc. – you know, romance). Stay health because more drug-resistant forms of HIV/AIDS are popping up and the medicine does not work of these strains (the medicine doesn’t work for everyone anyway so any strain is bad for you). Live long and find “the one” to settle down with. Gay/bi/”straight” guys deserve happy ever after as much as anyone else.
@Michael W.: The ability to judge what he is doing is not making a decision for him. People make judgments about me all the time. I don’t feel any need to do what they think. To me, all these defenses of him are odd. What- you think he’s going to do anything differently because we think he’s gay?
@Dawson: If you think saying someone is gay over being bi, then I got to ask you what are you doing in this forum?
@Dawson: How is it hurtful or hateful to say he’s gay?
Gay/bi guys deserve happy-everafter as much as anyone else”.
Not by the way many gay men throw their acid comments everywhere! Yuck, stop projecting your own miserable lives onto others! Misery brings others down, so live well and do good unto others. Mike is hot, has a good character, courage. What a babe. I’d love to meet someone like him. Bi is fine by me.
GIOVANNIDUDE, just because Mike refused the advances of certain women in the house does not mean he isn’t bisexual. What, did you expect Mike have sex with any girl offered??! It don’t work like that, straight, bi or gay.
@nikko: Yes, we expect a guy his age to be interested in sex, which apparently he was, just not of the opposite gender.
Women are not hard-wired towards excessive sexual behavior as men are. When women have sex, it’s often a reflection of a need to obtain a reward from the man they’re having sex with.
Men have sex because they want sex. Women often have sex because they want the reward that comes with sex, financial or otherwise.
@jason: I can tell you’ve never been around a woman you weren’t related to in your life and have never had at least one attracted to you.
Women are far more aggressive sexually than men. I know first hand. They’re not afraid to make the first move and let you know their intentions flat out.
Especially in DC of all places which apparently it’s unknown to those of you who’ve never been there that DC is a huge gay mecha that is literally crawling with gays. On the weekends DC is gaytown and you begin to realize just how many gay men and women(but mostly men) live there. Practically every man you see on the street Friday-Saturday in DC is gay.
There are also loads of straight women in DC who are looking for men who are even remotely interested in them. If this kid was bisexual he could’ve gone out to both gay and straight clubs and brought both men and women home. He only brought men… a lot of men.
It’s clear who he wanted.
Yall speak on his behalf because you want him to be bisexual since it’s the new “in” thing to pretend to be bi and oh so complex, but the reality is most people are not bisexual, and it really isn’t all that complicated.
Everyone suddenly wants to hate on labels like they’re itty bitty teens rebelling against the man.
I’ve said it before and I’ll propbably end up saying it again..
Some of the stuff people like Focus On The Family and others say about us is NOTHING compared to the venom we are willing to spew out against members of the gay/bi/community.
Yeah there’s so much venom in here, how awful. Everyone’s been calling him a douchebag and an asshole. Oh wait, no they haven’t.
Chill out, drama queen.
Bi now; gay later.
@Zach: 100% Co-Sign……….Waaaay too often here on Queerty Street the venom spewed towards people on our side would make Maggot Gallagher blush……….Unfortunaelty some don’t realize: A circular firing squad kinda defeats the purpose………..
Mike is charming and loveable, and radiates decency, in addition to being attractive. And very, very few would reject him as a partner. That most girls want him too (but aside from a bar kiss, he doesn’t act on it at his age when hormones are raging and sex drive is at its peak — and even goofy Andrew is bringing home a different babe each night), something is wrong with this picture. If you’re advertising yourself as bi.
Make no mistake, no one is attacking Mike. He’s a great kid, and a role model for gay teens. Nobody is hating on him. Just the opposite. Anyone would be proud to have him as their son!
But look, when someone broadcasts they are bi, and then proceeds to prove by every single action that they take that they are otherwise, and informed observers (the girls in the house) come to the conclusion that he is gay, then maybe he is. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
And just because someone’s BS radar is triggered doesn’t mean they are a bitchy queen, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Even bitchy queens have a right to be offended by false advertising.
It doesn’t really matter if he’s lying about being bi. Its just that he comes across as a hypocrite and a tool bag.
@Giovannidude: Have you actually read the posts on this thread and previous about this guy? Problem is that way too many BQs let their juvenile jealousy rear its very ugly head and start hating on someone you very correctly identify as a great role model.
And lets not forget how fierce his Mother was in stating that she would protect him also. Her ways show how ignorant and hateful Tanner’s and Derrick Martin’s parents are………….
I live in DC and I support that DC women are easy. They are eager to meet and have sex with guys since it is a hard town to meet guys in. I have many 20 something and 30 something females that would pounce on Mike if they had the chance. From everything I witnessed on the show Mike isn’t interested in girls. If he were he could have had them.
Interesting that Tanner his ex who came to visit was a guy. If Mike had been with so many women as he states why didn’t any of his ex gfs come to visit in DC? That would have made for a more interesting story so I’m sure producers would have been happy to show Mike being bi. Obviously, they couldn’t.
@Terrwill — I have also read your posts, where Mike’s claiming to be “bi” had you fooled for what, a microsecond? You just weren’t going to buy an obviously bogus claim, and I don’t blame you. Mike was from small town America, and apparently from a religious family to boot, so he had to have a crutch on the way to coming out. This is what he chose to hide behind or soften the blow, and is completely understandable. I think you referred to this process in one of your posts as his gay “training wheels”.
For me the most touching moments of Real World D.C. were the appearances by Mike’s mother and father, who showed themselves to be ideal parents, the kind who show unconditional love. I was really impressed, and I think Mike’s other house/cast members were too, including the guys.
Yes, there are BQ’s on Queerty, but they do not confine their jealous rants to discussions of Mike Manning. Just check some of the Morning Goods threads. The more some guy looks like a Greek god, the more likely they are to rip him. We’re all familiar with the phenomenon.
But when someone complained that Mike’s describing himself as “bi” was not backed up by evidence on the show, that was just stating a fact. Not being a BQ.
Well, one certainly can’t say that Mike Manning isn’t having an impact on at least the Queerty community. I think he’s up to six threads of discussion now. I think that ultimately the contentions against Mike seem to that he is a liar. In order to prove that he is, Queerty readers look at everything from how many women he’s kissed to how many times he had sex with a man to what DC is like on the weekends, all examples pulled from this thread alone. Of course, this formula assumes that sexuality can be quantified and that it is soley behavioral, not psychological or emotional.
It’s slightly ironic in that, as several posts have noted, the same “oh no, you’re really not” assumes a position of power, a demand to “fess up” to the public as to one’s real identity, assuming, somehow, that unless one disproves one’s gayness, it’s an automatic assumption that one is really gay, even if one identifies as bi by one’s own volition. As many have noted, it’s the same concept of power that seems to be featured at other forums, those that demand that one is really straight, not gay at all, “just confess that it’s the new in thing to be and we can all go home. After all, you owe it to Focus on the Family to do so.”
Personally, I am not into trying to wrest Mike Manning’s sexuality out of him as he’s already identified it. I’m not in his mind and trust that he, not readers of a blog, would know otherwise. As terrwill had noted, who I’ve differed with in the past but not this post, his courage provides for a role model for GLT and B youth. To demand otherwise is petty and arguably hateful (we’ve even seen a bi identified youth asking about the circular firing squad against Bi folk on this blog in the past.) As others have noted, not being supportive of all members of the spectrum in their identity as G,L,B,T or Q is not only unbecoming but destructive.
I hope that Mike finds happiness with whomever and whatever gender he may wish, and more, that he’s supported in doing so.
@Giovannidude: I agree completely.
The problem is you are dealing with a small group of people here with an agenda. Each time a story like this comes out about someone saying they are bi- they will not admit to any possibility beyond “He’s bi. YOu are a hater for saying he’s not.” So, no matter what you say, they are going to attack you. It’s not about what you say. Hell, it is not even this kid who does seem like a nice guy. It is about the agenda of pushing “bisexual does exist.” See, we aren’t allow to use nuance by saying “yes it does, but not all the cases of people claiming to be bi.” It is the qualifier that incurs their wrath.
Interesting, most of the comments along the thread and others are exactly like yours. Someone will offer a nuanced argument reflecting on the facts of the situation (ie, a guy the kid’s age is typically a horn dog (I know I was) and thus it is a little weird if he’s bi he’s not out there looking for girls and guys in a city where it is easy to pick up girls). That’s just not quite getting how he’s bi here. Maybe some part of him is into women, but its not a very strong interest. The point is that is as likely that he’s just transitioning to accepting his sexuality as gay.
There’s nothing wrong with either one so long as it is true. The problem is that anyone who questions the bi label gets all these rather extremely defensive and agenda driven arguments about their assertions being leveled out of hate or bashing or whatever else that makes no sense unless one is emotionally invested in being angry at even asking the question about the label of bi.
@glasshouses: most of the post actually said something very different from what you wrote. Like I said above, this is about many of you projecting your own agenda on to what people are saying. If you got to lie about what people are saying to make your own arguments valid, then that brings into question your arguments.
@glasshouses: By the way, there are diffrent levels to telling the truth. A guy on his way to coming out who is really gay, but starts off by saying he’s bi is not quite on the level of big lie that you seem to imply. He can still be a great guy and make this claim. We are discussing the process for understanding how people come and in what ways, etc. You can take that as some big negative, or you can realize that for some of us including myself who have been through the bi phase that this is just part of a process that happens. We can look at a situation with honesty even if the kid doesn’t and nevertheless think of him as a good guy from what we have seen on him on tv. There’s not a contradiction here unless one requires perfection.
When one notes:\
“”bi now, gay later” not specified to MIke but possibly all bi-folk, Mike is only bi as his producers wanted him to be, Mike being bi is a completely bogus claim, Mike is exhibiting “reasoning is typical bi on the way to gay excuses” that “This Mike kid seriously had “bottom” tattooed across his forehead before he even said he was bi the first episode. Last time I checked real chicks don’t have dicks.” “It couldn’t be more obvious that he’s uncomfortable with his sexuality as addressed on the show itself. … This shit is classic. I can’t believe people are still pretending to fall for it just to spread their new bisexuality mantras. No one is buying this crap from you or him.”
I would suggest that’s some pretty clear evidence of not taking Mike on his word.
Do some go through “a bi phase” (apparently, D’oh did), others do not (apparently, Mike). What does that prove? That some people go through a bi phase, while for others, bi-ness is as legitimate identity as gayness. Cool.
Which one is Mike? He’s already stated that fact. Will he always be? Sorry, don’t know, my crystal ball is broken. Can we tell or does he owe it to us to explain? No, period.
@glasshouses: What’s interesting to me is that you keep confusing honesty about what Mike may or may not be going through with attacking Mike. It is interesting that you require us to lie in order to somehow show we are okay with Mike. If Mike says he now a Chinese immigrant from a mining town (an extreme example to illustrate a point) you would want us to show that we like Mike by saying robotically “Mike is a Chinese immigrant from a mining town.”
You are not responding the thesis I am writing or else. It is not an attack or bashing or hurtful as others along the thread have said to point out that Mike may not be bi. It is not an attack on him at all. It is just discussing what may be the factual situation given what we know of Mike’s time in DC.
You are adding the baggage of this being an attack on Mike.
You don’t need a crystal ball. Just less baggage and emotional issues with discussing what other people are discussing without everyone having to tip toe around your craziness.
I have no idea if Mike is bisexual or gay. I know that he identifies as bisexual which seems to me to really be the only thing that matters in terms of truth.
He’s VERY involved in LGBT activism (even 9 months later) and seems like a good kid with a loving heart and a great head on his shoulders.
Yes he’s articulated some fears about not being seen as masculine but no more so than most gay men and given how horribly gay men tend to treat young guys like Christian Siriano (yes, hear on Queerty and other blogs and in the real world), I can understand Mike’s fear of being made fun of vis a vis his being manly enough.
He definitely has sex with Ashley (it was revealed on one of the after shows when Josh and Erica called Ashley and Mike out about it and neither of them denied it) so some part of him still wants to get it on with girls.
It seems to me that if Mike is attracted to women sexually he’s certainly not only gay even if he likes guys more.
But I also can imagine that it must be a LOT easier to meet, hang out with and play with boys in Dupont Circle than in Colorado where he’s from. That kind of freedom and progressive environment is bound to go to someone’s head.
I just don’t understand all the anger and the level of ire about Mike and how he identifies sexually.
People keep saying “HE’S GAY” like it’s some dirty secret that’s being outed or some crime he’s committed and not be held accountable for.
HE thinks he’s bi because he’s attracted to girls. Some guys who identify as gay may be comfortable saying they are gay even if they occasionally sleep with women but he clearly isn’t.
As long as he is honest with himself and his sexual partners about who he is and what he wants, I don’t see why others who don’t know him get so offended by him.
He’s a bi guy who is in love with a man (Tanner) whom he can’t be with right now (for reasons only he and Tanner really know).
But he’s clearly still attracted to girls since he had sex with Ashley and has basically tried to get in her pants multiple times over the course of the season until Tanner and he got back together.
If you watch some of the uncut footage on Real World Dailies, you’ll see that he had a lot more girl action than just what was shown on the full episodes.
Ashley is an idiot. She is grossed out by the fact that Mike is sexually attracted to men and that he slept with her then slept with a boy. She never got over that fact and she acted completely disrespectful to him in the house because of it.
They mus have had sex before Mike brought home the guy he had on the pool table and Ashley reacted horrible to seeing him kiss that boy and it was right after that point that she starting losing her mind and attacking him all the time and saying “Eww, you kiss boys”.
That’s what happened on the show that we got to see.
Unless you live inside Mike’s penis, I don’t really see how any of you can be so certain you know what brings it to attention.
Yes tons of guys lie about being bisexual or being gay. But not EVERY guy who says he’s bi is lying and they shouldn’t have to prove it by dating an equal number of men and women so that both gay men and straight women believe them.
People are conjecturing and spewing lots of displaced anger about what other men have done or not done in the process of their coming out (privately or publicly) onto this one kid who could not be more good-spirited and focused on doing wonderful things for our community.
If the one thing folks have to get mad at him about is the fact that he identifies as bisexual (despite everything else he’s doing) then that’s just really twisted.
It’s kind of pathetic how folks just pile on. It’s a little weird how obsessed some here seem on proving that Mike isn’t bisexual (like it’s some deep dark gotcha secret).
The fact is, I don’t know, I only know what saw on the show, the after shows and the dailies and Mike ACTS like a guy who likes both girls and guys and the way he was drunkenly trying to convince Ashley that it was “okay” for him to rub his penis all over her vagina (her words) before he got that call from Tanner, wasn’t like any gay man I know of.
Even with that, he’s having more same-sex-sex and positive experiences on screen than most of the out gay celebrities folks fawn over all the time so I hardly think he has a problem with folks knowing he likes boys.
I don’t get the beef.
I don’t mind the “bi” label, but do mind when it’s used because of shame being a full-on homo. I suspect Mike’s doing the latter. His behavior seems pretty one sided to me.
In terms of behavior, men are known to go through a “gay phase” before settling on heterosexuality. I know men like this. My point is that these men are still bisexually oriented but have, for wheatever reason, settled on heterosexuality as a behavior.
It may not necessarily be a repudiation of homosexual behavior. It may simply reflect that the love of the man’s life has turned out be a woman and that he’s faithful to her.
Some of the gays I meet in gay bars are clearly bisexual but call themselves gay. For instance, I met a guy recently who was once married and had children, but who is now in a relationship with a man. He calls himself “gay”.
I pointed out to him that, no, he is bisexual. We had a heated argument. This guy was desperate to protect his “I’m gay” status as if his dear life depended on it. I simply pointed out that, having been oriented and attracted sexually to women, his orientation is bisexual.
My view is that a lot of “gay” men see the word “gay” in terms of belonging to a club – sexual or political – rather than it reflecting their true orientation.
@jason: He got angry because like the bisexuals along this thread, you were trying to pigeon hole him into your understanding of sexuality because you could not accept the fact that having sex with women does not equate in all cases to bisexuality.
Your need to define it as such comes from the fact you could not accept the fact he wanted to be with men even when he was with women. there are a lot of gay men who go through this self hate, and find it hard to address it. So when they finally come to terms with it, the last thing they want to deal with are people with political agendas not interested in fact or what evidence suggests.
Not everyone who has sex with women or even settle down with them are bi. Many are in fact giving in to the pressures of society that tells them that is what they are suppose to do. Your definition of reality does not allow for that possibility. Mine does allow for bisexuality to exist. I have met men who are. I have met a lot more who aren’t but feel the need to say so because they want to be accepted.
Your feelings about gay men are those of someone with an agenda who does not particularly care what the facts suggest. That’s what we are discussing here with Mike. Whether the facts suggest he’s bi or is that just a transitory label toward being gay. For some, bi is really what they are. But for many, it is just a transitory label they use to fit in w the dominant culture and with guys such as yourself or like the person above who saw saying Mike is probably transitory as being bashing or hurtful toward Mike. Only if someone has a problem with being gay can they make such a conclusion.
No one is saying that bisexuals don’t exist. No one is even saying that Mike might not have been one, at least for a while, as he increased his sexual awareness, and transitioned to his true sexual identity. He may even be bisexual now, at least somewhat.
All people are saying is that at the beginning of Real World D.C., Mike proclaimed that he is bisexual. And all during the show, there was only evidence of his being gay, and nothing else (except one kiss of a girl in a bar, which may have been for his younger brother to see). All that might not be conclusive evidence that he is gay, but it would be enough for any jury in any courtroom in America.
The harm that can be done by insisting Mike is bi despite all evidence to the contrary, aside from flirting with denial and ignoring the facts, is that it sends the wrong message to troubled teens who are trying to cope with their sexual identity. Mike showed these kids one route out of a potentially hopeless situation: if you’re from a small town with a strict religious background, it might be a better strategy not to hit everyone between the eyes with the gay sledgehammer. Tell ’em you’re bi first, and see how that sinks in. Then you have some maneuvering room instead of getting thrown out of the house, or being disowned by the family. Most of these kids have at least one girlfriend (or friend who’s a girl), so it’s plausible. Because the problem is going to be dad (mom probably already knew the kid wasn’t straight). What these kids need is a practical strategy that works, not politically correct ideology enforced by the thought-control police.
@D’oh, The Magnificent:
Wow you two really hit the nail on the head. Great comments!
And herein lies the problem that I see:
“He may even be bisexual now, at least somewhat.”
He never identified as “somewhat” bisexual. He identifies as bi. Hence, he is a liar or he is telling what he believes about himself to be true, not as an “even” or a “somewhat” but as an “is.” He also admits that he hooked up recently with a woman but apparently, that behavior really means little. We also know that he hooked up loads of women beforehand– from that perspective, he’s got loads of men to go to catch up. Behavior itself obviously in this case is not the only determining factor for sexuality.
But again, why does one assume that one gets to be the arbiter of identity? Is it a transition for him to gayness or straighness? Maybe. Is it not? Maybe. Will tv viewers ever know? No.
BTW, the perception that bi means you get to stay in the house while gay means you get booted can be far from true. “I dig dudes sometimes” sits pretty much up there with “I dig dudes all the time.” After all, bi-ness is as we’ve noted perceived by some to just be a transition to all out ‘Mo by all parts of the spectrum. “Kick em off the farm, Irene, before it sets in for good.”
Also, is the other bi on the show transitioning to Lesdom or are chicks just different that way? We’ve seen her with a few dudes, or is she faking it?
“The harm that can be done by insisting Mike is bi despite all evidence to the contrary, aside from flirting with denial and ignoring the facts, is that it sends the wrong message to troubled teens who are trying to cope with their sexual identity.”
I have to take exception to this. The claim of the evidence that you note is that an outside entity can make judgements based on behavior or visible actions. That is an extremely dangerous position to take as opposed to suggesting that youth have the right to self-identify however they damned well please, and should be supported in that self-determination, whatever identity they opt to believe applies to them.
@glasshouses: In that case, one can never judge anything because one can never truly read anyone’s mind. This is an absurd argument because then we can never know anything about anyone else because we are not in their head.
And it is destructive to say people can identity as they please without regard to whether the person is truly being honest or to ignore social pressures for the identification. Their identification may or may not be right. You are doing no one any favors to pretend that the world is as simple as let them identity as they please without us noting the possibility of what the facts suggest.
This is an example of the damage of pop philosophy and what it does do complexity. It is like the statement “people should come out at their own rate” without regard to what are the reasons for not coming out, whether they are doing so for monetary gain, political gain, etc. All is the same in such a simplistic frame.
The more complicated answer here is that much of this is situational and evidence based in judging competing interests. We can not know whether the label matters without examining Mike’s actual behavior and pressures on him. coming up with one size fit all rule may be easier, but it does not always achieve a better result for society or individuals.
“We can not know whether the label matters without examining Mike’s actual behavior and pressures on him. coming up with one size fit all rule may be easier, but it does not always achieve a better result for society or individuals.”
But that very investigation is absurd. Mike identifies as bi. The notion that one size fits all is only being placed up him that are insisting that his behavior indicates a given gay identity, that no matter what he indicates, he must be mistaken about himself. To presume that we know better than him about his own identity is an assumption of power and insight that is disturbing.
Is he being honest about his own identity? The only person that has the ability to decide that question would, obviously, be himself. He appears to have done so, regardless of what a gayometer may read on him. He should be supported in doing so.
There is no one-size-fits-all strategy for teens who are coming out. For one thing, until the age of 18, teenagers are legally their parents’ reproductive offspring and are under their parents’ control. If teenagers have no parents, they are wards of the state or of their guardians. Teenagers don’t have a lot of legal leeway; they might be able to petition the court to be emancipated early for good cause. Otherwise, they are “stuck” until they’re 18.
For another thing, the U.S. is not a homogenized country that could sustain such a simplistic rule from coast to coast. It’s a big country that covers three time zones. A teenager coming out in a devout fundamentalist family in a rural Oklahoma town probably couldn’t use the same strategy as a teenager coming out in a wealthy liberal Boston suburb.
I can appreciate idealism, and it’s nice to know that some people believe in their ideology sincerely, as if it were a religion. And are willing to take others apart verbally if they don’t happen to agree. But the thought control police approach will only take you so far. When it comes to convincing others, people don’t want to be told what they have to think. They want to make their own decisions on the matter, based on what they saw and heard, and arrive at their own conclusions. They’re fully capable of doing so. You just have to have enough confidence in the people to stand back, and let them do it.
@Hilarious: You may not believe in war, and that is an entirely respectable position to take, but many gay and lesbian American want to serve their country in the military openly and I support them 100%.
@glasshouses: The issue is to promote honesty, and trying to achieve that is not an easy thing despite your attempts at simple rules.
@jason: I better tell my Mathematics teacher that one.
On an earlier point:
“They can not accept that while there is a smaller percentage of men and women who are truly bi, there is also a percentage who use the label as a way to address social pressure from straight society.”
I saw your earlier note, d’oh, and completely agree. I know **oodles** of GL and T folk who noted that they identified as bi at some point. Outside of me, I know about, well, two bi men, both of whom are in long term, monogamous relationships with women, all of us of a, um, certain age and openly working toward equality for the community. Obviously, I believe that they and I have to right to identify as bi, as I believe that Mike does. I totally admit, however, that for some the transition may be easier to being gay if they admit being bi first. Truthfully, if my experience is any indication, I lean toward believing that I won’t know that many other bi folks compared to the G and L folks that I do know.
It’s easier if we all just go by Queer but that’s a different thread.
@glasshouses: By the way, the simplistic constructions by you are many here. It strikes me as growing out of “the individual is always right.’ Sometimes they are. Sometimes not. It is hard to know what is right or wrong when it comes to figuring out the truth. Sometimes others have more insight into us than we have in ourselves. Sometimes we have the best insight. There is no one size fit all rule to this that can really work. Experience and age, here, for example can give one an awareness of what this kid is going through that no amount of self awareness at his age may be able to give.
Or it may be the case you are right, but we can not live by a simple one size fit all rule or else it is dogma created by ideological belief. To put it another way, are you doing the kid any favor if you suspect he is gay based on the situation but are not sure to not tell him that you suspect he is gay but feels pressure to say he’s bi. What is better here? to accept what you think may be a lie or to say the truth as you see it, and let the kid decide what to do with that truth? Under your view, you would say no one should say anything. I disagree with that
. First, it is not reality. Second, it is nothing something that necessarily leads to a better result. I thank god I had friends to tell me when they thought I was headed down the wrong path way and I dislike those who wanted to leave it all up to me to figure out. In your world view, there does not seem to be anything we can learn from one another’s experiences.
“They want to make their own decisions on the matter, based on what they saw and heard, and arrive at their own conclusions. They’re fully capable of doing so. You just have to have enough confidence in the people to stand back, and let them do it.”
Which is exactly why I would suggest that Mike is capable to make his own decision as to what he is. What we see and hear and watch in a few month segment does and should not offset what he has already told us is true about himself. It appears that there is no thought policing going on but to note that “Well, Mike, I saw you on TV and let me tell you, I know better than you do about yourself.” That’s not right, in any meaning of the word.
“It strikes me as growing out of “the individual is always right.’ Sometimes they are. Sometimes not. It is hard to know what is right or wrong when it comes to figuring out the truth. Sometimes others have more insight into us than we have in ourselves. Sometimes we have the best insight. There is no one size fit all rule to this that can really work.”
That’s a lovely strawman argument but doesn’t really relate. The argument that you are suggesting is that Mike is really gay. He has noted that he is not, he is bi. The latter argument doesn’t mesh with the former. I lean toward giving him the benefit of the doubt, noting “if you transition to being gay, great. If you transition to being straight, great. If you transition to a better realization of bi-ness, great.”
It’s really not my place to evaluate his life and self-identity based on a few weeks on a tv show.
@glasshouses: “It’s really not my place to evaluate his life and self-identity based on a few weeks on a tv show.”
This again is one size fit all rule making. Why exactly isn’t it your place to judge someone on a show who choose to go on a show to let you see his life?
I lean towards letting facts speak for themselves rather than creating one size fit all rules.
If Mike has been with so many girls in the past then where were they on the show? The producers dug up Tanner and brought him to DC. Why didn’t they bring any number of girls that Mike has slept with to prove him being “bi”? REAL WORLD producers certainly knew when they cast “bi” Mike that they would want to tell a “bi” story. So where are all girls that Mike supposedly slept with before moving to DC? hmmmm. just saying.
“I lean towards letting facts speak for themselves”
and I let people speak for themselves and believe that the best person to judge the facts about someone’s life would be themself, not some viewer of an MTV show.
@glasshouses: People don’t always speak the truth. I could tell you I am a 50 year old white woman out of Detroit. That’s my label. That does not mean its true.
And he choose to be on that MTV show, so I find it funny that you are disparaging it. I don’t personally get it now. You have a problem with the show , but not him going on the show to display his life for us as the audience member to form an opinion over? I mean- when you watch shows, you don’t form opinions? As a creative person, I would be stunned by that sort of response because that is the polar opposite of how most audiences react to story telling or tv shows. The assumption is that you do form opinions.
I’m not disparaging the show but the assumption that a viewer can know better about a person on it about their own identity (which spans a lifetime) based on a few hours of a few episodes seems to be a bit of a stretch.
As far as a label and a reality, if you walked up to me, appeared to be 50, appeared to be white, spoke with a southeastern Michigan accent, and appeared to be woman, I would have little reason to not believe that you indeed were so.If you lived in a few other places but still opted to identify yourself as such, great! I would say bully for you. Maybe one day you’ll be a Detroiter again, maybe you won’t. I really don’t know.
Look, this has been a lovely conversation and I’ve enjoyed your points but I’m going to pass on continuing. Charming as its been, it’s become a bit circular with more than a few ad homs. You see Mike one way, I see him another. To each his bi, gay, straight, or otherwise own.
I didn’t watch that season of RW, so I have no idea who this Mike is…
But I will say that anyone who thinks that a gay guy proclaiming himself to be bisexual will allot him more acceptance is completely deluded. The bisexual label does NOT grant more societal acceptance.
When a guy tells someone that he’s bisexual, they aren’t thinking “Okay, at least he still likes girls.” Instead they are only focusing on his attraction to other men. The term “bisexual” means more weight in the gay world than it does straight society. In mainstream/straight society, you’re either heterosexual or you’re not.
@DTG: If you had watched the show, you would have seen his brother’s reaction . His brother was straight. He practically blurted out “bi” when someone said that Mike is gay. I am not going to do justice to the tone. The tone was one of “at least he still likes girls” It is true many heteros will not care as much as gay men will. BUt some do. They think of it as representing “just a phase” or he will go off to have sexual fun with men, but will marry a woman. It only becomes real when it is a long term relationship, and then suddenly “but I thought you were bi” meaning they thought “you would end up with a woman.” People in the straight world view bi as “there is still hope for us to relate to each other and you not to weird me out with the parts that are not like me.”
@glasshouses: Love the way you cut it off trying to get in the last word. congrats. if it is circular it is due to your inablity to accept complexity. Even the odd argument now about how someone on tv shouldn’t be judged is simplistic. but it makes your other arguments make more sense in context. you like simple arguments.
That’s where we come to the reality of the situation. Most of the people arguing against the fact that Mike is actually gay didn’t watch the show in the first place. They don’t know any of these things and therefore can’t make a valid argument. They just want to push an agenda like you’ve said before.
Mike’s brother gave us the root of the problem in his reaction, but Mike’s mother shed light on what she knew: Her son is gay.
She didn’t once say “bi” and he didn’t correct her. She said gay, multiple times, as did every female on the show.
It’s not easy to lie to your own mother in her face and being that Mike clearly has a good heart, he couldn’t lie to her face.
His brother he most likely didn’t want to look down on him so he said “bi”. Then there’s the fact that he’s younger so he would probably think Mike would check him out in the show or some other disturbing thoughts that do run through teens minds, they really don’t understand sexuality as well as they think they do at that age.
Point is if Mike’s mother had ever seen him bring a girl home she wouldn’t have called him “gay” she would have said “bisexual”.
Mike’s masculine front was also addressed on the show itself. He dropped it when he was around the girls and he himself chose to mostly hang around the girls rather than go out to the straight clubs with the guys.
The hitting to test other guys and wrestling. That’s all a front because he doesn’t want to be perceived as feminine and that’s yet another reason why he chose to identify as “bi” rather than “gay”. That is another problem, not with him, but society’s views of homosexuality.
The show itself pointed out a moment when one of the castmates called him “gay”, and he didn’t correct it. Andrew happened to be the one who called him on it in that scene and Mike didn’t utter one word to the contrary.
Like I’ve said before too, it’s easier to find a female to sleep with than a male(regardless of your sexuality) in DC. I know this because I lived in DC, in walking distance of Dupont Circle, for five years. If he wanted women he would have had his pick of any he wanted. There are tons of hot gay guys in DC, Mike as adorable as he is, would not remotely stand out in Dupont Circle on the weekend, so I can tell you without a doubt he had to actually work for it.
All of that aside he seriously looks like any other gay guy who hangs around Dupont Circle on the weekend. When the season first started I picked him as the gay guy without thinking about it, then I realized how young he was when he said he was “bisexual”, been there done that.
Coming out isn’t a single event. It’s a process. Part of the process is understanding and then accepting yourself. It takes time. A lot of gay guys say they are bi for some period of time during that process.
Put yourself in his place. Suppose you were a decent looking single guy, but nothing special, and just in the process of coming out. You want to pick up a guy. “I’m on TV. You wanna be on TV?” might work as a pick-up line.
As long as being attracted to the opposite sex is viewed as carrying some kind of incentive (since it usually IS favored), people who declare that they have this attraction, will have their proclamation taken with a grain of salt by some people. Completely understandable.
“The harm that can be done by insisting Mike is bi despite all evidence to the contrary, aside from flirting with denial and ignoring the facts, is that it sends the wrong message to troubled teens who are trying to cope with their sexual identity.”
You have good points well stated, but have you considered the harm that can be done by insisting Mike is gay despite his self-identification to the contrary? I was a troubled teen trying to get people to believe I am bisexual, and seeing people with the same attitudes (on the show, and now online) say the same things they used to say to me (“you MUST be one or the other, you’re just going through a phase, I know you better than you know yourself, you don’t get to choose your own label because I will choose it for you”) is EXTREMELY hurtful. What if Mike really is bi? He’s the only one who would ever be able to tell, so we shouldn’t pretend like we can read his mind.
You make a very good point. I totally agree that it is just as bad to convince a bi guy that he’s really gay as it is to convince a gay guy that he’s not really gay. Both are forms of harmful pressure coming from the outside, the first example reflecting pressure from gay extremists and the second from homophobic extremists.
I think that a lot of gay men forget one important point. And that is that, while homosexual relations are demonized by conservatives, the sexually versatile man (ie bisexual man) is demonized by liberals, including those in the gay community. This has come about for these reasons:
a) Male bisexuality suggests “choice”, a notion that counters the liberal orthodoxy that sexual orientation is innate, an orthodoxy that has helped to win rights for gays on the basis that the gays “can’t help who they are”.
(My counter to this is that the bisexual orientation is as much innate as is the exclusive homosexual or exclusively heterosexual orientation; therefore, the bisexual orientation isn’t a choice at all).
b) The gay scene is built on a sex act. The aim of the gay scene is to concentrate men into a small space, the assumption being that all such men are potentially available sexually to each other, thus facilitating sexual encounters.
The concept of male bisexuality dilutes this as it introduces the notion of a man who may not wish to be sexually available to another man if he finds a more attractive woman.
c) The sexual revolution – one of the foundations of liberalism – was developed from the notion that women must please men. Hence, skimpy clothes became de rigeur for women starting from the 1960’s. This enabled men to have a visual “cheesecake harem” available to them as women wore skimpier and skimpier clothing. The pill meant more women became promiscuous and could put out for men, thus further enhancing male heterosexual fulfilment.
Derived from this liberal notion of “women must please men” was the notion that all women are potentially bisexual. This dovetailed nicely with male heterosexual notions that girlfriends and wives would be potentially available for threesomes involving another woman. Indeed, the prevailing theme in all porn produced for the last 40 years is that the woman is bisexual for the benefit of an exclusively heterosexual male.
Therefore, female bisexuality was glamorized. Male bisexuality, on the other hand, wasn’t. Indeed, the price we paid for gay liberation was that male-male sexuality must be segregated both physically (by creating gay ghettos) and conceptually (by denying the existence of the bisexual male). We had to do this in order to please liberals.
Does anyone think he left that house without an STI?
You said “For instance, I met a guy recently who was once married and had children, but who is now in a relationship with a man. He calls himself “gay”.
“I pointed out to him that, no, he is bisexual. We had a heated argument. This guy was desperate to protect his “I’m gay” status as if his dear life depended on it. I simply pointed out that, having been oriented and attracted sexually to women, his orientation is bisexual.”
In my late teens and before I came out, I had sex with a girlfriend many times, because that was the only sexual release I could experience. I was attracted to her and enjoyed it, because that it all I knew.
In no way, shape, or form, would I consider myself bisexual. Once I had been with a man, any sexual interest in women vanished.
My point is you can’t paint any Bi label on gay guys who have experienced sex with a female in the past. I bet most have.
He is so gross.
Jason, why do you waste so much space on these baseless theories when the simple fact is the the idea of bisexuality is not always accepted at face value because of the history of its application? Instead of bitching about “liberals”, why don’t you work on creating a history of the label that doesn’t inspire doubt? But first this will require your acceptance of the fact that sexual orientation is not merely a private interpretation. There are outward behaviors that reflect what is going on mentally, and which is not limited to actual sex acts. Through unspoken body language and habits, people reveal more than they know, what is in their hearts and minds. Sure, intuition doesn’t prove anything beyond doubt, but we use it all the time to form conclusions. Why should this situation be any different?
@Brian: Having read several of these articles and subsequent responses, my guess is that Jason and others threatened by the notion that the frequency of true bisexuality is less than the number of people who claim to be bisexual.
That may be the case in terms of how you interpret your sexuality. However, in terms of objective fact, you are still bisexually oriented in terms of your whole life.
You have been sexually attracted to women and you are currently interested only in men. You are still bisexually oriented.
@jason: I like how you both tell people what their label should be while whining we should not tell people what their label should be.
I’m not sure I understand America’s obsession with THE REAL WORLD, but I guess it’s better than paying attention to the fall of the American Empire.
I wonder if Mike were older or a bit on the heavy side if anyone would even care. Gay men remain obsessed with youth and hot bodies. The hotties always win. Was that club he went to called the “Stereotype”? I guess DuPont Circle continues to draw the clones.
Straight, gay or bi, I found Mike to be on the immature side and a bit of a whiner. I would have liked to have seen the hot black guy top him one night, just so he could feel what it was like. I guess his 1950s, WonderBread version of Christianity annoyed me, as well. He really didn’t appear to be truly grounded in a deep faith; he was just repeating tired old lines from the fundamentalists. Oh well….
I found the hitting bit with the new potential boyfriend to be absolutely stupid. Maybe he’s just not all that bright. The cute boys always get special attention and better grades from their teachers, so this guy probably had a breeze through school.
@donlakeside: Since people speculated about Rosie O”Donnell and she is neither a man nor good looking, I would imagine your argument is just your projecting. You may want to watch that.
Humans are generally innately bisexual to some degree with very few being truly homosexual or truly heterosexual. The question is really not do you or don’t you, but WILL you or WON’T you.
We are conditioned to go all the way and choose one or the other while growing up, when in reality we have tendencies toward both sexes. (and this is a common theory developed by those whose job it is to study this sort of thing…not just something I created.)
Personally, I believe there are four levels of attraction: Physical, Sexual, Mental, Emotional.
I am Physically and Mentally attracted to girls, but not sexually or emotionally. Do I consider myself bi? Yes – but only to myself. I refer to myself as gay to others because the desire to be with men far outweighs the desire to be with women. …and with the general current understanding of sexuality being what it is and in today’s times, saying to others that I’m bi would rouse suspicion and rude comments – much like what Mike goes through. So, I’m gay. On a deeper more real level, though, I’m slightly bisexual.
Human sexuality is a VERY loaded debate/discussion and anyone who thinks they know what Mike is – well – that’s just silly. Only he knows what he is. …but that doesn’t stop us from talking about it.
Basing him on most guys I know who are similar to him, he probably likes to have fun with girls and guys (with a preference of men)…but ultimately longs to be with a male. One of his roommates said this in the video as well.
End of story. We’ll never really know, though. …even if he releases a statement or something – because there can always be hidden thoughts and desires.
@D’oh, The Magnificent:
re-read my post…I was talking about gay men, not the general public who were talking about Rosie…then again, you want to comment on everything and pass your judgment…go right ahead.
@donlakeside: I was talking about gay men too, who were also curious about Rosie, Ellen, Clay Aiken (I don’t think many think of him as super hot, do you?), etc. They even speculate about Matt Drudge among others. Most of the straight world has no clue who is gay and who isn’t. When I point out to my friends who is gay- they are still surprised. My friend txted me with an OMG- Ricky Martin is gay!!! She’s a straight female. When I txted back saying yes, but so are a lot of people. When I mentioned names she was surprised. As were other friends in on the conversation, including when I mentioned Queen Latifah. Straights simply don’t have the insider scope on gay media like we do. Yet, in the gay media, people discuss who is or is not gay all the time. Gay men especially discuss it. This is just reality. Your comments are just false from having been around straight and gay Americans. It is not about looks or gender. It is about the outness factor.
@donlakeside: By the way, it is funny to watch you pass judgement while whine about me passing judgement on by you that’s just factually false.
Did any of the “All bisexuals are bisexuals regardless of whether they are or not, as long as they say so” people watch the Real World D.C.? I don’t think they did. They just want to push their pet ideas. They have a right to do that, even if they don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to the show.
If they had bothered to watch the program before commenting on it, they would have known the following:
1) Mike is a bullshitter.
2) Mike’s mother knows he is gay.
3) All the girls in the house know that Mike is gay.
4) Andrew knows Mike is gay, and Mike didn’t contradict him when he said so.
Why don’t you get in touch with all these people, and tell them that they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about, that you know better than they do, and Mike is BISEXUAL, not gay!
AFTER READING ALL THESE COMMENTS I HAVBE A QUESTION FOR YOU ALL
WHY ARE YOU GAYS SO OBSESSED ON TURNING MIKE GAY?
HE SEEMS REALLY SMART, SOUNDS ACCURATE AND IS REALLY CONFIDENT ABOUT HIS SEXUALITY. HE KNOWS HIS SHIT.
IF HE SAYS HE’S BISEXUAL, WHY THE F—DON’T YOU GAYS LET HIM BE??
IT’S NOT LIKE HE HAS TO BE WITH A GUY AND A GIRL AT THE SAME TIME TO PROVE HIS ORIENTATION. THAT WOULDN’T MAKE HIM BI BUT PROMISCUOUS, DON’T YOU THINK?
THERE AREN’T ENOUGH BI GUYS IN THIS WORLD AND IS GREAT TO SEE SUCH A LOVELY GUY AS MIKE TO REPRESENT THEM. PLUS HE’S HOT. DEFINITELY MY TYPE OF GUY AND I’M A STRAIGHT FEMALE.
I SAY GO MIKE AND DON’T LISTEN TO THEM HATERS WHO ALWAYS TRY TO PUT SOME LABEL ON YOU.
GOD BLESS YOU AND TANNER. HOPE YOU GUYS GET BACK TOGETHER COS YOU MAKE A GORGEOUS COUPLE.
I share your sentiments.
The problem with the gay men’s community is that it has become a cult built on a sex act. Membership requires total devotion. One must declare one’s gayness at the door. One mustn’t refer to oneself as bisexual as it goes against the notion of total commitment to the gay sex cult.
One must attend underwear parties, leather parties, military-themed parties and fisting parties. One must never deviate from this very narrow focus. One must live, breathe and sing the praises of unfettered sex – even with total strangers – at every opportunity.
One must also like to sniff amyl and purchase expensive leather items from stores owned by mal-nourished gay guys with chicken legs and pretensions to hotness.
Simply citing witnesses isn’t good enough. Often, witnesses will have prejudices, especially against the concept of male bisexuality.
I think a lot of you fail to understand the depth of prejudice against male bisexuality in the general community, both right and left.
Anyway, see my post just above re what I think of the gay community.
@Jason — You are wrong. Witnesses are the only way to present evidence. In fact, evidence can’t be introduced without ’em.
Michael, “four levels” there may be, but there is only one criteria that will get to the bottom line. And that is which gender one would choose to be in an adult relationship with to satisfy all those areas if in a situation where they are forced to choose. If that doesn’t reveal one’s deepest orientation, nothing does. Now, if a person finds themselves unable to make that choice, then to me that is indicative of true bisexuality. If it’s an easy choice..well you know the rest.
I’ve only met a few true bisexuals.
I have a friend who slept with a girl because she just wanted to see whether her emotional connection to other women could be sexual, but realized it wasn’t and nor could it ever be.
She would be called “bi” here by some although that’s completely retarded since the whole point of sleeping with a girl was answering the question and testing her sexuality. She was like that- sexually liberated, but once she knew, she knew. I slept with a woman once for similar reasons- to make sure. I knew afterward the sex I was gay. By your definition I too am “bi.” which is totally retarded. Society sends us signals about being gay, and thus, I had to know if I could live another way. The answer was no. but you can’t allow that because I must be “bi”
Many of the non questioning guys are of the transitioning (straight to bi to gay) type. Or worse yet, the closeted gay men type. I dated a few of those. I was one of them for a while. “If we were on a desert island away from society, i could see myself fall ing in love with you” one of them said to me after sex. That guy was about as bi as I am. He was dripping social pressure in his statement. He was “out” as bi, but there was so much pathos in his statement.
Having met real bisexuals, however, I know they exist. They don’t sound like that guy. They also don’t sound like the political types along this thread. Having talked to them, I can’t imagine they buy into the rather lose definition of bisexual here that’s motivated by political agenda rather than real sexual exploration. This is why i find this conversation annoying. I know guys who are legitimately bi. The comments here are insane.
@Michael: I don’t agree with everything you say, but I think that scale you mention is a really good one. That’s how I was able to figure it out. I just ask myself “let’s be honest, who do I want to have sex with?” Not who do I like emotionally. Not, do I like how smart they are? Not even chemistry really.
But sexually and physically . To me, these are components that are real thing that can define sexuality. The mental and emotional are friendships, but they are not romantic love. I can deeply love my women friends, but I will never be deeply in love enough tow want to sleep with them sexually. I just don’t have it in me to want that. That does not make me bisexual because the key component is sexual attraction. Without, it’s a close friendship. I mentioned a woman friend of mine who experimented once for similar reasons. You wanted to see whether her emotional and mental connection could translated into sexual. It just didn’t work that way.
There are two types of bisexuals: real bisexuals, and gay guys masquerading as bisexual because they have a hidden agenda.
I met this wonderful kid who was kind of feminine but very good looking (sort of like Mike on the Real World D.C.), and he told me he was bisexual. I believed him, let my guard down, and the next thing I knew, he tried to steal my boyfriend. He even asked my BF to top him. My BF refused, told me about it, and made fun of me because I had been gullible enough to buy the kid’s story in the first place. It taught me an important lesson about people.
Mike had to masquerade behind the bisexual label because he had to maintain the fiction with his younger brother, who looked up to him. Mike didn’t want to be seen as the Big G in his eyes. He probably didn’t want his grandma to turn on the program after she got home from church, and find out that Mike was one of those fruity fellows either, for fear she might suffer a heart attack.
I took Mike at his word that he was bisexual, until he proved otherwise. And, wow…did he prove otherwise! Nice-looking girls who lived in the house who hit on Mike quickly discovered that he ran in the opposite direction when they suggested sex. Did Mike bring guys home, and go to bed with them? You bet he did. I lost track of how many. All the girls in the house knew Mike was gay, and didn’t seem to resent his having misrepresented himself as bisexual; I think they sort of felt sorry for him. His mother knew he was gay. The other guys in the house knew he was gay too, and on the nights they would hit the bars looking for girls, Mike would stay at the house, and hang out with the girls. Oh, and did I mention that Mike’s boyfriend from his swmall town, also from a religious background, who he had a secret, down-low, apparently sexual relationship with, showed up on the show, and went to bed with Mike too?
But if you watched the show, you already know all this. You already know that Mike’s former claim of being bisexual is a real knee-slapper.
If you didn’t watch the show, then you might be gullible, like I was, and believe that anyone who says he’s bisexual really is.
On “The Chelsea Lately” show they were talking about Anna Paquins announcement she’s bisexual, then pointing out that she was marrying a man, they talked about other bisexual women who talked about it, but were all with men. Chelsea then basically said “Man or women, when people claim to be bi, the dick always wins, they all end up with men.” I’m surprised the message boards haven’t been lit up over there with the same people that angily post here. :)
That is true, i’m married to a woman, but I still like guys sorry but its true.
@111 — Cam — A very good point you make. I would only say that, I have read your posts for months, and while I might not agree with you on every single one of them, I know that you are honest and sincere. That what you are saying is not BS, and that you have balls enough to stand behind what you say. In other words, you are for real.
Unfortunately, not everyone who posts on this forum is like you. There are people who posted on this thread who didn’t even watch the Real World D.C., and then went on to prove that fact. There are people who expressed their honest opinion, and then had to retract it when they let themselves be browbeaten by one of the Bisexual Nazis/Thought Control Police. I think you probably know who I am referring to; he hasn’t dared to post on this thread since he pussied out, because he is probably ashamed.
So in the future, I will read your posts first, and be eager to find out what you and others like you have to say. But I will ignore the trolls, Bisexual Nazis, thought control police, self-hating gays, and frivolous posters in general.
No. 104 · jason
The problem with the gay men’s community is that it has become a cult built on a sex act. Membership requires total devotion. One must declare one’s gayness at the door. One mustn’t refer to oneself as bisexual as it goes against the notion of total commitment to the gay sex cult.
I think the problem is, the failure among bisexuals to realize that “Claiming” bisexuality is oftentimes a first step for many coming out. So that as soon as gay men recognize the behavior and point it out to each other, a bunch of angry bisexuals sign on and claim that gays hate bi’s. No, it’s just that gays recognize the behavior. Newly out, claiming to be bi, ignoring hot women hitting on you and only going after guys etc… we’ve all seen it, we recognize it and your failure to admit that it exists makes you seem like you are not willing to deal with reality.
Additionally, I think many of us are under the impression that we never see bisexuals out BEING bisexual. All we ever do see nd hear is them Screaming about how terrible everybody is to them. Here’s an idea, you want people to accept that you are bi? Go out, get a girlfriend or boyfriend and live your life. All the freaking out and lashing out just makes it seem like you are trying more to convince yourself and not us.
“The failure among bisexuals to realize that “Claiming” bisexuality is oftentimes a first step for many coming out.”
Personally, I completely concur that is utterly possible. I’ll even admit that it is entirely possible that the overwhelming majority of bi folks are one day going to recognize at being either straight or gay.
For some, one’s claim of bisexual orientation may well be physical only, while for another it may be mental and emotion and/or physical. Read as: there can be numerous definitions and actions that underscore a bisexual identity, and, of course, that identity may or may not be meshed with behavior.
For example, Mike started this show by noting that he was bisexual. If I recall, there was no discussion at the restaurant dinner table where/when he announced it as to his physical behavior. Later on in the show (different episode), he also was sexually involved with at least three men that I could count (blond haired dude with plaid shorts– we assume that they had sex as blond guy stayed the night–, obviously Tanner, and then one other guy, if I recall.) That behavior may or may not indicate that he is only interested in men. He may or may not also be interested in women (indeed, in the closing section of the last postshow interview, I believe that it is Ashley who notes that Mike was with a woman “last night”) or he may only be interested in men in the future or he may be interested in both again. We do know that he was involved with women beforehand and that he notes he continues to like women still.
My point is that:
1)From the material that we have seen, Mike may be interested only in men for the future or not.
2) He may transition to Gayness, or Straightness. Indeed, some bis have, some have been partnered with a man, others with a woman. We may still consider ourselves bi or otherwise.
3) I would err in backing his own sense of identity in that if he claims that he is bi (for just the moment, eternally, never again), fine. I would add the following coda: “and if that ever changes or remains the same, good for you.” I would contend that if one were to suggest, as I have, that “your behavior thus far indicates that you’re gay so so you must be; you can’t claim a bi identity and you’re wrong” is actually the type of response that isn’t positive.
4) I still don’t believe that actions or behavior are the only indicators of sexual orientation. Indeed, can one be a monogamous bi person partnered with someone of the opposite sex? I argue, yes, definitely (and personally).
5) The problem that I keep running into it that I can’t say that to act as X indicates inherent bi or gayness. Again, it’s more complex than that and behavior isn’t clearly and always a precursor for identity.
Just my thoughts.
@D’oh, The Magnificent: I only argue with logical minds. Have fun!
@donlakeside: I imagine you don’t argue with yourself then.
@No. 115 · glasshouses
Your point is well made. And that is the issue, nobody on here is attacking “Bi’s” when they say something along the lines of “Who does this kid think he’s fooling, there have been 6 hot chicks who’ve hit on him, he wouldn’t even look at them and yet he’s bringing home a different guy to the apt. everynight. He is “All the way Gay.” They’re just commenting on an obvious behavior or a behavior they recognize from themselves from a few years ago or friends who went through it. The main trouble can begin when somebody then attacks that person calling all gay men cultist Nazi’s who attack bi’s etc…
If instead the person came on and started a reasonable discussion it wouldn’t degenerate. The types of attacks that come from what somebody on here called the “Bi Police” to me seem almost as ridiculous as somebody saying “Hey, Beyonce looks good with her new lighter straightened hair.” and then having people attack them as a racist. It’s just so weird and over the top.
“The main trouble can begin when somebody then attacks that person calling all gay men cultist Nazi’s who attack bi’s etc… If instead the person came on and started a reasonable discussion it wouldn’t degenerate.”
I agree. And if I have come across in this manner, I really do apologize.
I believe (and, of course, I can’t speak for all of Bi-dom) that the angst from noting that “Bi’s don’t exist” (we exist), or some other comment that seems to negate the very possibility of a positive bi identity, coupled with a “you’re just going to end up Gay anyway” can rub the wrong way, in the same way tht one noting “you just need to have ___ happen to make you straight again” can and should be really offensive to a Gay person. Simply, some of us can be and are bi for good. Personally, I see Mike as being bi at the moment, who knows about the future. However he identifies, I wish him a positive view of himself.
I note that, of course, that’s nothing *at all* wrong with bi folk who end up noting that a Gay identity; hey, great for them, you, whomever! That’s wonderful! Personally, I’ve never met a Bi person who didn’t support Gay folk completely and/or would be ashamed to be Gay. We are part of the same community.
I fear that some negative responses be toward those who would suggest that bi-folk as a whole can’t admit to one’s own gay (or straight)ness or worse, that we as a whole wouldn’t want to be associated with being Gay. Are there bi-folks like that? Sure, I guess– though I’m not going to be hanging out with them any time soon.
@Kyle24: is that why he slept with Ashely?
No. 119 · glasshouses
I agree. And if I have come across in this manner, I really do apologize.
No, you absolutly didn’t come off like that. That is why I was having the discussion with you. I was just trying to say that if somebody like you comes on here and reads some of the posts, you may not realize that oftentimes they are in response to some attacks that have been lobbed previously!
Mike tries to play innocent throughout the show, too. For example, he tells Eric in one episode on the way to the gym that he’s never seen so many of them (i.e., gays) in one place. Well, his friends on Facebook posted several pictures of him at Gay Pride in LA the June BEFORE he moved to DC to start filming. Oh, and he’s with Tanner. And they are in just undies walking around.
As another gay man who has lived in various areas near Dupont Circle, DC for five years, I second everything that “Hilarious” has posted above. The city is crawling with gay guys, but they are kinda picky. If you go out to a bar determined to pick up a dude, you’ll find someone (especially for a young fit white guy.. not saying it’s right, but it’s true). But even if you’re attractive like Mike you gotta work at it to pick up the grade A meat :) Oh and yeah, women.. geeze where do I start? DC ladies are fairly nice and are pretty easy for my straight bro housemates to pick up.
You have to remember, in DC, everything is political. Most of us get paid to front. You try to look like a lady in the streets and then you act like a freak in the sheets.
Well said, PICKLES. I only wish I was more (hetero) bisexual. Gays have bombed when it comes to understanding, affirming and accepting the very best of both sexual worlds, bisexuality.
@Dana: Actually, he didn’t sleep with Ashley. It came out in the reunion show (or somewhere) that they were just ‘naked under the cover’ but there was no intercourse. They were being purposely misleading in that after show, probably to further the myth.
You know, the last time I read so much bullshit on a single topic/forum etc. was on the Christian Coalition website where a discussion board were supposed to argue about whether or not homo- and bi-sexuality is wrong. Naturally being the CC.org, 95% of the argument was one-sided and I subsequently had my thoughts of the topic deleted and not only had my affiliation with the site, but had my IP address blocked too. Obviously I touched a nerve, and clearly the word “discussion” was just there for show.
Here, I’m seeing a lot of the same side, but just from the opposite end of things.
You hear and read quite a lot how gay people, completely right-minded to do and feel, argue for their rights to be on the same level as human beings as what has become known as “regular”, also being heterosexual. The fact that in many respects homosexuals are treated like second class citizens means that the world hasn’t really progressed from the Nazi view of Jews, or the Romans and even modern day China on Christianity (which has a little sense of irony since mostly religious groups oppose anything “gay”).
However, I cannot for a single moment understand why the gay community has its arms up in the air over someone who labels themselves as “bi”. Are they not doing the EXACT same thing about their own treatment from a large portion of society? Hello pot, meet kettle.
Mike Manning says he is bi. He may prefer guys. He may at some point have preferred girls. He may decide in the future he wants to be with a woman, with whom he may fall in love with and marry. Or he may meet a guy, and decide that this man is the one for him for life and marry/commit to him (hopefully the former when the world sees sense). Does this really make a difference to anyone here what this one guy calls himself? Do any of you know him?
(Apologies to anyone here who does know him, I didn’t read every post. I was getting too angry.)
This is 2010, as many of you here have pointed out, and so we’re at a time where it’s easier to come out as gay without the backlash from not even 10 years ago. So why is it so hard for people to understand “bisexuality” today? Why can’t we just say “if that’s what you say you are then great. I’m happy that you’re happy”?
Most human beings probably want at some point to get married, to find someone who is their soul mate or however else you are wanting to define it. So the main dilemma for bisexuals to face is the fact that not everyone is going to be understanding if and when they make that final choice. When Mike chooses who his life partner is, some will say he was lying about liking women if he chooses a man and some will say he’s just hiding from his sexuality if he chooses a woman and some will say he’s just messed up, confused and screwing with people. The world is too crazy for this shit.
To me, the whole rule of “sexuality” is absolutely irrelevant. I actually don’t agree with this religious obsession with sexuality. Yes, some people define themselves as “gay” or “straight” but to me it’s nonsense. We’re all on a scale. Now, I do believe that some go and stick to just one end because that is where they know they belong and others go to the other. But the majority of people are more than likely somewhere in the middle. And I also believe that few people are dead center in this scale much like at either end. You don’t know what will happen in the future. As the girl in the video said (cannot for the life of me remember her name right now) she likes women at the present “moment”. I have been through these stages.
Recently I prefer guys, but for a long time I rarely looked at guys. This may change back, but it may not. Right now, for me I’ve spent far too much time around girls that I find them too much work. Guys I understand because I am one. So that appeal is there for me, again, right now. But for 80% of my life I’ve always felt closer to girls in both friendship and in my love life. So I don’t know where I’ll end up, or who I’ll end up with. Does it matter to me? Yes, a little bit. But I’m not going to wrestle with it. I’ll meet someone when I meet someone.
The above is actually my main viewpoint. I don’t “look” for girls. I don’t “look” for guys. I don’t really hook-up because I’m not that kind of person. I “look” for a connection with someone which can develop into something serious and long-lasting. I don’t care about whether they have a penis or a vagina. I care about who they are. And no, I’m not saying it’s all about the personality because that’s bullshit. As my brother has always pointed out, it doesn’t matter if someone matches you personally because you have to be physically attracted to them too. People have different tastes in looks but ultimately every individual has to be attracted at a physical level to their own tastes. So I do look for people I am attracted to physically. But still, I look for the person. A person. Not a sex. Not a gender. A person.
And right now I know so many of you are going to immediately disagree with everything I have said. But why? You close your mind to my and so many other peoples viewpoint. I wrote this because I’m tired of the hate. It’s like religion; if you don’t believe in God then that is fine, I have three siblings and a parent who also don’t believe, but don’t tell me I’m wrong because I do believe. It’s not your place. Just accept. Move on.
If you don’t want to agree with the choices Mike Manning makes then fine. But do not attack him when in the grand scheme of things he is fighting for the exact same thing that everyone here and across the world is fighting for; acceptance and understanding. See, it’s not the lack of these two things that destroy a society, it’s the hate which they bring in not accepting and understanding.
Mike Manning is a Christian. He is a bisexual. But that isn’t his whole life. That isn’t who he is. It’s just what he is. And every single person here should be ashamed for preaching the same hate the most right-winged conservatives who still call for fire and brimstone, and all that mess.
The guy is role model. I understand where he comes from completely and the best thing about Mike is that he isn’t petty. He tries to make his point but he doesn’t do it with hate. If nothing else about him can make you like and accept him, then at least take the fact that he is accepting of you.
Life is too short for this stuff. Which is ironic since I spent quite a bit of time writing this.
You may proceed to disagree with me now…
I wanted to add also, someone somewhere mentioned how Mike only liked “straight acting” guys or whatever and they saw that as being a put down on the gay community and again adding to this whole “Mike is gay but hates them too” bullshit.
He has a preference. It is no different from someone saying they wouldn’t want to be with someone who is fat, someone who has big/little/perky breasts, a bubble but, a six pack, a spot-free face, someone who doesn’t smoke, someone who doesn’t snore or has an odd speech impediment. People have preferences. His is to guys who aren’t overly effeminate. I too have the same preference. I don’t get why that level of effeminate characteristic is the only thing that can make someone like guys and anyone less than that is exactly that: less than that. He doesn’t find that attractive. Don’t berate him for it. He didn’t say you were wrong, or that God will smite you for it. He just doesn’t want that in someone he’ll date. You might as well just argue the same crap about straight guys who ignore your advances.
OK, it’s long. But I’m bored. Sorry for ranting but this stuff just irks me. Stop with the hate just because someone doesn’t immediately conform to your belief.
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