Photographer Eliel Cruz was looking to put a face to LGBT communities of faith and humanize them. Though you certainly wouldn’t know it by reading Queerty, the last pew religion report shows there are more LGBT people of faith than none believers.
His first batch of shots features Christians, mostly in the millennial range, drawing from across gender and race spectrums.
Take a look below as each shares a bit of their story:
Grant Mealey
Good i guess but why?? Just not my path after being tourtured for decades ð??³ð??¢
1EqualityUSA
Why go to church when you can do this!
http://adventureblog.nationalgeographic.com/2015/12/11/angels-landing-female-skier-angel-collinsons-best-line-award-makes-powder-history/
Stefano
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5671313
Stefano
http://www.gallup.com/poll/174788/lgbt-population-significantly-less-religious.aspx
LP - Hired Stud
There are many of us, gay men and women of faith. Unfortunately it seems as though some of the LGBT community doesn’t have room for us under their great big inclusive rainbow.
SO many people talk about how Christians have hurt the gay community and I don’t argue that, there has been SO much abuse and hurt. However, you can’t lump all Christians in that boat just like you can’t say all gays are AIDS infected drug abusers.
Ironically, my sexuality is accepted more with many Christians than my Christianity is accepted with gays.
SashaVonAndris
I had a gay Christian friend who wants to remain chaste, in order to be in “God’s favor”. He wants to marry a lesbian friend of his one day… I’ve since ex-communicated with him.
Stefano
God loves fat !https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/09/24/its-official-every-state-in-americas-too-fat/
Welton Bishop Jr.
So true and God loves us all
martinbakman
Tank de lode.
Bauhaus
David Khalaf (second from bottom), see ya in church!
ted72
Hopefully, this trend of nonsense ends soon. LGBT people are smarter to believe in things not based in reality nor science. I like to think we’re smarter and have more sense than this.
Stefano
@ted72: sorry to disappoint you but we are not smarter than the average person. Stop wasting your time in the ghetto…loll
Lvng1Tor
@LP – Hired Stud: ” However, you can’t lump all Christians in that boat just like you can’t say all gays are AIDS infected drug abusers.
Ironically, my sexuality is accepted more with many Christians than my Christianity is accepted with gays.”
Hhhmmmmnnn…I wonder why with all that Christian Love and Tolerance you just wrote shines through…Wouldn’t want to be thought of as one of THOSE types of gays…WWJD? Not what you wrote.
I’m not anti religion but this whole…I’m so persecuted cause I’m a christian BS has got to stop…Get off the cross honey..someone needs the wood…BTW Jesus would be hanging out with those AIDS (BTW its HIV you A@@!) infected drug users…not sitting in his poor me ivory tower.
Chris
Of course, I believe that there’s something much bigger than me out there. We call it reality. But I do not need to anthropomorphize it nor do I need to think that it takes a huge interest in me personally.
However belonging to a Church, back when, made my life too complicated. In the spirit of simplifying things, I decided to cut out the middle man and go directly to the source. Things are much easier that way.
dustashed
The statement gives the connotation that LGBT people of faith are the minority in the community than the non-believers. Maybe this is true in the circles that the author of this article is constantly exposed to but from my experience this is not the case..
To be quite honest, it’s usually the gay men who help out more with church activities (ie decorating the church, arranging flowers for saints, doing makeup for “beauty pageants of saints” sort of) etc that any straight male or female. Check the wiki link, those dresses, the event are generally courtesy of gay men. On some occasion, gay men in drag even have their own marches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flores_de_Mayo
So the take-away here I think is it depends on the overall experience the homosexual-man has with religion. If they have horrible experiences as a child or growing up then of course they will eventually come to hate and reject all aspects of it. But as shown in this particular case, they basically run the show second to the priest.
bicurious
This might very well be true, but fortunately I think it will start to diminish over time as young gay people are accepted more and more as fully equal and valued members of society. For years young gays have been told by society that they aren’t valued and far too many took that message to heart. Instead of concentrating on their education and developing their intellect they gravitated toward the party and bar culture. They didn’t develop their intellect past that of a juvenile which is why you see so many middle aged gays with Peter Pan syndrome. Now that young gays are finding easier acceptance by society I have to believe that they will start realizing that they deserve to be educated and as they become more educated they will stop relying on religion/fairy tales.
bicurious
I should add that there have always been young gays for whom art becomes their savior. I don’t know if it is because of luck of exposure or because they are intrinsically more intelligent than those who gravitate toward religion. In any case I very much hope that young gays finding art in great numbers isn’t something that will be lost as they find earlier acceptance in society…….
Xzamilio
More emotional appealing BS… why not just investigate the “evidence” associated with the “God” claim, instead of doing the usual “believe what you want to believe” routine that most religious people do. So tired of that “not all Christians” or “not all Muslims” line because it doesn’t mean anything. Great, not ALL of you are crazy or anti-gay… but you ALL believe in a books that say crazy and anti-gay things.
Dakotahgeo
Every one of these young Christians warms my heart! They DO have a true understanding of what self and Christ, and a personal relationship have to do with each other. For the non-believers, I feel sad for them. They’re the losers in the end, and they’ll never see it coming!
DistingueTraces
“Huguenot”?
Thispurpose
Once again one of your articles refuses to acknowledge the work of MCC. It is because of MCC Toronto that the western world is moving toward equal marriage. MCC Toronto held the first legal same sex marriage in the world, it lead the way with Rev. Dr. Brent Hawkes at the helm.
Homo Erectus
@Dakotahgeo: “For the non-believers, I feel sad for them. They’re the losers in the end…”
I’m not a loser, anytime I get a d1ck in my “end”!
Dave Downunder
I am not a believer but I have no problem with people having faith. I won’t judge or comment on it. I do however have a problem with organised religion.
1EqualityUSA
I believe that it all has to do with how one’s brain is wired. Some have no problem with math because their brains are wired for that gift. We wouldn’t judge someone harshly for not being able to do calculus, nor should we judge those who have zero propensity towards spiritual predilection.
Xzamilio
@Dakotahgeo: Save your pity for the starving, the sick, the abused, and the oppressed… because I sure as hell don’t need condescending pity from individuals like you who don’t bother looking for the real answers in the natural world and cling to unproven nonsense.
Dakotahgeo
Sorry, your kind aren’t getting THAT much pity, lolol. We’re too busy feeding the poor, finding shelter for them, stressing the damage climate change and use of fossil fuels are doing to our earth. We have a full agenda and we could use all the help we can get but quite frankly, if you want to be a pain, you’re not needed… we simply don’t have time to babysit you and your kind.
@onthemark: Never a threat, but really a promise! These events are not up to me to decide… they’ve already been set in motion. I’d rather be right and have a future than to be wrong and have no future. Cheers!
@BlueDude: THANK YOU! Some people just have to learn the hard way… they’re really like conservatives… they don’t listen and learn too well!
Stefano
@Xzamilio: loll love it !
Transiteer
If you need it, I guess. But religion (any) are all man made and meant for power and privilege. The two fastest growing “religions” are Atheism and Buddhism. In either, it will be stated that there is nothing wrong with you, you’re committing no sin, you need no one else to justify yourself. Far better than the hate filled tyranny that masquerades as religion these days (not that they were ever better).
So, religion if you must. But must you ‘religion’? You don’t you know.
BlueDude
@ To all the non-believers: Do y’all think we give a FU©K what you think about us believers? Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion, but NOT entitled to attack us simply because you don’t agree. Theres no proof either way, merely opinion versus faith. Have the courtesy to just STFU.
onthemark
@Dakotahgeo: “They’ll never see it coming,” really? Sounds like a threat. You talking lightning bolts, or more like hellfire?
@BlueDude: God Fvcking Bless You! Faith-based sarcasm, gotta love it.
Xzamilio
@BlueDude: There’s opinion based on fact, and then there’s faith in something you have no evidence for. And if there is no proof either way, thanks for admitting that what you believe has no proof, but what I don’t believe is based on your lack of proof, so don’t think we are on the same plateau. I can say whatever the hell I want, and have EVERY right to talk shit about your religion, especially if you are in the business of broadcasting it like some badge of honor.
@Dakotahgeo: Stressing the damage of climate change? Yeah, the damage of climate change is something SCIENCE has uncovered, not an old ass book or sky daddy. In fact, the very one impeding our efforts to stop climate change believe the same damn sky daddy and old ass book that you believe in. Nothing you mentioned requires a god, so you’re pretty much busy doing what believers and nonbelievers should be doing already… pin a rose on your pious nose.
” I’d rather be right and have a future than to be wrong and have no future. Cheers!”
Pascal’s Wager at its cowardly finest!! In other words, you’d rather kowtow to a fear-based ideology that instills the threat of hell in you than actually look for evidence. That’s not a virtue… that’s taking pride in willful ignorance.
Cheers!!
Dakotahgeo
LOLOL… you’re a bitchy little queen, aren’tcha?? No problem! Now go see if Mommy has your cookies and milk ready!
Xzamilio
I mean seriously… if you have to do all of this cherry picking, interpreting, and selective reading to justify why are you are a part of that religion, why bother with the religion? Clearly it can’t be that important if you are just going to believe what you want to believe and turn your nose at contradictory passages and fellow believers who No True Scotsman you because what your “interpretation” isn’t up to their standards. Thousands of denominations of Christianity that don’t even agree on the same definition of the same god… you can’t all be right, but you can ALL be wrong… and my money’s on you being wrong.
Xzamilio
@Dakotahgeo: Proverbial head in the sand, ad hominem diarrhea. I’ll get those milk and cookies from mommy and give them to Jesus for when he sees Santa, who has as much evidence for his existence as your messiah.
o.codone
@LP – Hired Stud:
You said: Ironically, my sexuality is accepted more with many Christians than my Christianity is accepted with gays.
I’ve never heard it put more truthfully or more succinctly. The gays are active, vicious haters of people of faith and hypocrites because they want everyone else to love and embrace them just for being gay. Gays have established their politics to include the hatred and mockery of Christians. It’s a fact.
Xzamilio
Oh, no, it’s not like religion — Christianity and Islam in particular — don’t have rich histories of LGBT oppression and murder… or that the same oppression and murder is still going on today in certain parts of the world… no, we’re just attacking the poor “people of faith” . I don’t give two country dumps who accepts my being gay, as long as we have the same rights… one of those rights being to criticize and point out the hypocrisy of celebrating bronze age ideology that serves no real purpose in these enlightened times.
Religion has left a bad taste in my mouth for more reasons than one, but hey. Believe whatever supernatural hogwash you desire, as long as you keep that shit out of my life and our laws and in your Church and imagination where it belongs. Hugs and kisses, y’all!!!
Stefano
@Xzamilio: you are son right !
1EqualityUSA
test….
1EqualityUSA
The Church entangled themselves in politics, so do not be surprised by the outcome.
MMDD
@Bauhaus: He is seriously hot!!!
MMDD
@o.codone: Not all gays…not even most, necessarily, but definitely some. Out of those numbers, a few are downright vicious. But I think that’s more related to their atheism than to their sexuality. Most of my gay friends are people of faith.
Chris Vogel
Not at all surprising: all churches and all congregations (and all families, workplaces, schoolrooms, etc.) have the same share of bisexuals and homosexuals. Doesn’t make it any less dimwitted and irresponsible, though. However, it is possible that some of them, at least, are actually improving things in their denomination so that that denomination will diminish its persecution of the rest of us.
Jim
Remember….God and “religion” are not one and the same. And when people refer to the “church”, both in this article, comments and elsewhere, I imagine that they are referring to the Catholic Church, or evangelicals. For a realistic, honest, welcoming, God and Jesus-based religion, try the Episcopal church. ALL are welcome, we are huge and worldwide, first to allow women and then gay priests (our just retired Presiding Bishop is a woman!). My husband is an out Rector of an Episcopal parish, always has been out. Our Bishop married us in a big, traditional church wedding. If the Episcopal parish you try is not welcoming ( and fortunately, those are the exception, not rule), try another. Though I have always had faith in God, and have a relationship with Him, praying together on Sundays and singing those hymns provide additional inside joy. My experience has shown that often people who readily call themselves Christians are, based on their words and actions, anything but!
tmccloud1
What about the Non-Christians?? I’m Jewish, and rarely do I see Jews, or other Non-christians shown as representatives of “People of Faith”
Bellamy
Some of the biggest heroes of the Gay Community are the pro-gay Conservative Fundamentalist Christian ministers like Rev. Dr. James Cunningham of King James Bible Ministries International. His book GAY CHRISTIAN SURVIVORS and website (GayChristianSurvivors.com) uses the King James Bible and the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek New Testament Scriptures to completely smash every anti-gay argument and proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Bible is 100% pro-gay marriage. Others include Gay Christian 101, Gay Christian Network, United Church of Christ, and the Cathedral of Hope, and these five alone constitute MILLIONS of pro-gay Christians around the world! All you have to do is go to GayChurch.org which lists the THOUSANDS of gay and pro-gay churches in every nation, and it becomes very clear that the anti-gay “Christians” are in an extreme but powerful ultra minority.
BlueDude
@Xzamilio: It appears that your own “enlightenment” has resulted in much negativity, hate, and intolerance of others. It’s sad that you’ve chosen to live with such unhappiness, because it will attract only more of same. Hopefully, you can recover.
@Jim: Usually, “the Church” refers to organized Christianity, not a particular denomination. I, too, am an Episcopalian, because we teach love and grace, not exclusion and punishment; Hellfire is not part of our message. Some parish congregations have broken away due to gay issues, but most are accepting and loving of LGBT folk. Those of us in my parish are active in various capacities, and are loved, and respected.
Bellamy
@tmccloud1: Well, sadly, it’s often hard to find Jewish evangelists ANYWHERE representing ANYTHING except in issues regarding Israeli lands – which is ironic because Moses specifically commanded the Children of Israel to preach freedom and liberty in the name of Yahweh to everyone else in the world, saying, “Proclaim liberty throughout ALL the land, unto ALL the inhabitants thereof!” There is LIBERTY in the Almighty God of Israel, and THAT is what He “chose” the children of Israel for – to bring His light and love and peace and the knowledge of Him to the world. They haven’t even done that, so how can you expect to find any “representatives of People of faith” among them?
Bo Hamrk
Most of “Religions” are false prophets. Follow the religion of your choice. Not to be affiliated with ones saying that being gay OR straight is a choice. (In which it is NOT!) When did anyone get a questionnaire for them to answer THAT question? Find out who YOU are on the inside, do good, cause no harm, be kind to one another* and avoid haters and you will be at one with the Superior Being.
*Thanks to Ellen for this quote!
EvonCook
How appalling, pathetic and sad. If any one could teach the religionists a new and better way, it should be us gays to throw off the mind control, brainwashing, social manipulation and anti-naturalism (not to mention hate, bigotry and self-righteousness) unless their religions were pagan or humanism. Alas, I see most of the individuals are trapped by the dominant abrahamic creeds –the worst at being anti-gay, anti-sex, anti-natural and anything but open and loving. But some people get so indoctrinated and dependent that religion becomes like an inner addiction, even if the basic teachings and resultant institutions would gut, neuter and burn us at the stake. Just will never catch me in those guilt producing and freedom denying mind traps which put an imaginary future life over the fullest enjoyment of the tangible present. And as dominating monotheism, so those forces are not unlike the monogamy fantasy, as a community we have now been largely co-opted and assimilated into the phony romantic syndrome that there is one perfect person out there and only one soul mate to answer all one’s dreams, needs and desires. What a lot of backward movement we’ve been trapped into lately. Next, we’ll be singing the virtues of bankers, realtors and other One Percenters who teach us money is all and then are certain to take the fruits of our labors. Gays could have taught the world so much and brought so many wonderful if subversive improvements to the way heteros have been running and ruining the world.
SteveDenver
Childhood indoctrination with superstition and mythology.
Many gays and lesbians reject religious fairy tales; and upon scrutiny find that whatever form falls short of reality, facts and science.
Merv
Gay Christians need to understand and acknowledge that they are quislings. Christianity isn’t just some random superstition. It is the sole reason for the insane persecution gay people have experienced in the West for the last 1500 years. By affiliating with that particular religion, they are sending a big eff you to their fellow gay people.
bicurious
@EvonCook: Evon Cook, to you I say amen.
@Merv: to Merv I say, and also to you.
Fortunately this is a problem with a clear solution. The solution of course is a better educational system. Now if only fixing our schools wasn’t the immense hurdle it is….
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Xzamilio: Hi Xzamilio; I have a curious question to ask you – it’s not about religion per see but about what we call “God” – I’m asking this question because I would love to hear directly from a non-believer and understand your point of view.
I’m not interested in arguing or debating God’s existence, I’m just looking for information because I do think those who don’t believe are fascinating.
Why is it, personally speaking, that you don’t believe in a creator God?
Darsithis
This saddens me.
Religion is an evil construct that needs to be done away with to see our species rise out of an age of superstition and hate, and seeing our people – LGBT people – falling for it just is just sad.
mezzacanadese
Many of the members of Trinity+St. Peter’s Episcopal Church in San Francisco are gay, and we cherish them all. They are active members of our congregation and play leading roles.
dwes09
@LP – Hired Stud: Just as Evangelicals/fundamentalists/cultists refer only to themselves when using the word “Christian”, so too do gay people usually refer to the same group when disparaging “Christians”. Only a few refer to all you in their derision.
And though I have fundamentalist friends, it is impossible for them to see me as anything but doomed to hell when I die. But they express the essence of proper faith when they keep that to themselves and share my pleasure at the increased enfranchisement of LGBT people.
Xzamilio
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Because there is no evidence, plain and simple. Removing appeals to ignorance, appeals to emotion, circular reasoning of using the bible to prove the bible — the same with the Koran, although I will argue there’s more evidence for Muhammad’s existence than there is Jesus’s — there is no evidence.
Why don’t you believe in Thor? Zeus? Mithra? Horus? Ra? Shiva? Anansi? Odin? Cthulhu? Why not the other thousands of gods claimed to exist?
@BlueDude: There’s that condescending pity again… I’ve learned that it’s simply the telltale sign of someone who can’t refute an argument and simply uses appeals to emotions because they can’t use evidence. The happiest day of my life was when I let go of that religiosity and welcomed rational thinking… hopefully, you can do the same one day and stop living for a dead Jewish guy.
ksaboy.com
All religions do not allow it
http://www.ksaboy.com
dwes09
@Dakotahgeo: There is a huge difference between belief and empiricism. And it is those who bank on belief who are more likely to to be sorry in the end, especialy when that belief requires them to deny the things that are clear and obvious about this world.
You choose to accept as real unsubstantiated dogma regarding “moral” codes and afterlives. Others choose different unsubstantiated dogma. The choice is arbitrary (usually by dint of birth). Those who are evidence based are as moral and ethical (if not more so), and have access to a greater level of satisfaction in life. And in the end if there is some rather anthropomorphic God who required strict adherence to an obviously culture based set of behaviors to get access to an afterlife, most people are out of luck anyway.
There is simply no way for you to know that you have chosen the correct God from the few that only allow their followers into “heaven”.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Xzamilio is correct. There is simply no evidence that any of the culturally constructed exist. Even if one removes the belief in the various (and easily falsified) creation myths, there is no evidence of either purpose or intent in the universe. That does not mean there is no God necessarily, but it means that the existence of God must be accepted with neither evidence nor logical reason for that existence.
Religions like Buddhism which have no deity, but simply moral codes and spiritual practices make a lot more sense. And religions like Judaism which involve little or no thought about an afterlife or “salvation” (whatever that is) also make more sense than those geared towards heavenly reward.
dwes09
@EvonCook: Sorry to burst your bubble, but the notion that gay people have something special to teach others is as much unsubstantiated myth/dogma as the notion that human sacrifice (the murder of Jesus) bought forgiveness for other people. Other than an orientation towards same sex affection, we are no different in our desires and needs than anybody else, no better or worse. Your dogma comes entirely out of New Age imagination and is a religion in itself.
As for monogamy vs serial monogamy/promiscuity, that is just another continuum of need that is seen in all humanity. Pair bonding has evolutionary advantages, just as living in extended family groups does…end of story. Essentially all your post does (other than reveal misunderstandings about which are the “abrahamic”, monotheistic, religions) is replace one mythos with another you find more appealing (and interestingly, some researchers find adaptive advantage to clinging to myths).
The Tower of Power
The problem with believing in supernatural beings is it is impossible to determine what they want, so people can use them to justify anything. All you need to do is look at what happens when religious groups splinter. Both groups insist they are right, and exclude others from their vision.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Xzamilio: That’s a very good question; the reason why I don’t believe in those “Gods” is because they are primordial “beings” that are supposed to represent, or embody certain natural phenomena or functions. Those “beings” are always “extensions” or “children” of the creator “father” God that made the universe.
We can track and see how the Romans, Greeks, and Ancient Egyptians anthropomorphized those phenomena into deities with their own mythical stories that describe how certain functions of the universe interact. This is also true of the Mesopotamian and Mesoamerican deities; those also fall within the possibility of actual Beings visiting those civilizations, but that is a completely different topic.
The God which I worship is a God that created all, a God that neither bears children nor is He begotten – A God that has no physical form and is a force that has intellect, wisdom and knowledge of that there is.
Now that being said, when you say proof, what kind of proof are you looking for? If God exists outside the five senses, who are we to see Him? Or are you asking for something beyond seeing?
dwes09
@Bellamy: @tmccloud1: There is no such thing as a “Jewish Evangelist”. Evangelism SPECIFICALLY refers to converting others to Christianity (the word itself refers to the suposed “good news” of the Gospel). Jews by definition do not believe any Christian theology.
Jews essentially do not proselytize, except for the ultra-orthodox, and they are only concerned about other Jews, not gentiles. Most Christians have little or no understanding of Judaism, thinking of us as “incomplete Christians”, just waiting for a revelation from Jesus. Kind of like thinking homosexuals have “not met the right girl (or boy)”. Except of course, religion is clearly a choice, orientation is not.
Jews don’t speculate about what happens to the “soul” after death, we just figure it goes away, and we will find out soon enough. Thus we have no interest in “salvation” or “grace”, no understanding at all of how the torture and murder of a man takes the place of appealing to God and the community when you have wronged someone.
Specifically to Bellamy: you seem totally unaware of the role of Jews in civil rights, progressive politics, medicine and so on. We don’t toot our horns like the Christians seem to do more and more. We are very much “people of faith” and there are LGBT congregations in every major Gay community, as well as out gay clergy in many other congregations. Modern Judaism, especially the reconstructionist movement in America emphasizes the concept of Tikkun Olam, look it up before you further indulge a particularly christian based (but subdued) antisemitism. If anything, the lack of Jews, or other faiths, in this aerticle is an expression of a similar ignorance to yours among the staff at Queerty.
As for your distaste for Zionism, there is much more open and public discussion of it in Israel than here. AIPAC has a huge hold over Conservative and Reform Jews, and progressive Jews are abashed about sharing feelings about Israel because it is not well tolerated by other progressive people. Plus it is a bit more nuanced than you seem to understand: other than Netanyhu (a definite bad guy), there are no real bad guys and good guys. There are legitimate struggles on both sides, and evil actions on both sides. The rest of the middle eastern world has shamelessly used the Palestinians as political pawns simultaneously to maintaining a cultural distaste for them. A significant part of the Israeli population wants a real two state solution with economic alliance, some Palestinians want the same. Most of the Israeli Arabs understand they have it better than they would in any other country so they are really torn torn between that and concern for those in the occupied territories (25% of Israelis are non-Jewish Arabs; Muslim, Christian and Druze).
Hussain-TheCanadian
@dwes09: I appreciate your take and opinion on the issue; I disagree with you on the matter of “intent or purpose” of the universe, and I disagree that there is no logical reasoning behind the existence of a creator God.
Those two subjects alone have thousands of books written on them, without the usage of circular logic, and using only intellect and reasoning for that existence to be a must for the universe to make sense. Those books have been written by European and North American philosophers, and i’m not even including Muslim philosophers.
So this topic is a vast topic, not something that can be discussed in a few paragraphs.
DuMaurier
So, there are a lot of LGBT believers “…you certainly wouldn’t know it by reading Queerty”, the reference I assume being to the comments board.
I’m such a serial online poster that it always surprises me when I talk to someone and find out they’ve never posted a single comment, is only vaguely aware that such venues exist, and have no interest in the whole idea. Long story short: people who take the time and effort to register their opinions on the Internet so other people can see them are not typical, either in action or outlook.
The Tower of Power
@Hussain-TheCanadian: The problem with that line of thought is something that is allegedly so involved in the intricacies of the universe would leave traces of existence, but none have been found.
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence when there should be something there.
Sigmund Freud realized over 100 years ago that faith in supernatural beings is a delusion that people who feel inadequate (either unintelligent or ugly) participate in to make themselves feel wanted by someone.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@The Tower of Power: The interesting thing is, I do see those traces of evidence in creation, and in particular, in the cosmos.
Do you not see the “fine tuning”? I highly recommend a very interesting book titled: “The Devil’s Delusion” by Agnostic Mathematician David Berlinski. His book covers many of the Atheistic and Agnostic scientists who have discussed interesting “foot prints”, traces, and or abnormalities in the Cosmos that suggest a creator.
As for the opinion of Sigmund Freud on the matter of inadequacy being sufficient to explain why a creator God, I find that conclusion questionable at best and this coming from a reader of Mr. Freud.
The Tower of Power
@Hussain-TheCanadian: If you argue the universe is fine-tuned to allow earthly life, you have the burden of proving that no other form of life is possible, not just on other planets in our universe, but in every conceivable universe that has different physical parameters. There is no such proof of that.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Hussain-TheCanadian: ***small correction: “How are we to see Him” – not who.
Xzamilio
@Hussain-TheCanadian:
“The God which I worship is a God that created all, a God that neither bears children nor is He begotten – A God that has no physical form and is a force that has intellect, wisdom and knowledge of that there is.”
If a god exists beyond our senses, how do you even begin to comprehend it. It has no physical form but is a force that has intellect, wisdom and knowledge of that there is… how do you know? How can you possibly make that kind of claim? Alluding to your “existing beyond our five senses”, it becomes even more absurd, because if it exists beyond any means of you comprehending it, how can you comprehend it? How are you able to distinguish your god that is beyond your senses with one that plain doesn’t exist?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@The Tower of Power: Existence and creation of life, be it intelligent or “not” is not limited to “earthly” life only, but it is created throughout the cosmos and exists throughout this vast existence.
Now of the above, I have no proof that is true, but I believe as we become more technologically advanced, we will find this life – You and I may not be alive to witness that sadly, even though I hope we are.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: I have always maintained, and will always maintain that “logic and philosophy” are not really ways in which we can actually know anything to be real. Both logic and philosophy are abstractions telling us more about our brains than about the world around us. There is not now, and has never been any empirical support for the existence of any specific deity. There is certainly no theoretical basis for the existence of a god, nor any way to approach the issue empirically. It will always remain entirely in the realm of belief and faith; which is to say nowhere in the real universe at all. Clearly I am a naturalist, and my beliefs regarding deity are kept separate and understood for what they are.
It is a comforting belief certainly when stripped of the peculiarly Christian and Muslim notions of eternal punishment for “sin”, non-belief or apostasy, but regardless of the number of books written or the hours of discussions one may have it is all speculation, and both logic and empirical examination dictate that it can never be more than that. But it does make for great discussion.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Xzamilio: Why would you assume that comprehension has to be within the five senses?
Many of our cherished scientific models exist on an intellectual level because the paradigm of their existence makes sense, and depending of course on the scientific measurement or paradigm we are looking at.
I think logically that the belief is absurd only if you submit to the notion that no physical traces of engineering exists, however the tangibility and comprehension doesn’t need to be within the five senses at all – Does our intellect needs God to be physical to partially comprehend Him?
As for how do I know, I don’t know, that’s why I believe; even with the traces of creation that I see and accept, I cannot say that I know, but believe.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: By the way, all supposed logical arguments for the existence of God have laid their foundation either on things not known to science at the time, or on the assumed veracity of various sacred texts. I would be curious to see an argument that did not hinge on one or both of those things. But even so, it would still be speculation [Just as with your comment on on extra terrestrial life: it is likely to be there, but as yet there is not even enough evidence to construct a hypothesis regarding it. It behooves to understand that believe never equals actuality regardless of how probable that actuality may seem.]
1EqualityUSA
“Some of the greatest minds in history have endeavored mightily, as did Saint Thomas Aquinas, to prove the existence of a deity; and some equally great minds have endeavored just as mightily to prove that a deity cannot exist. They have utterly failed to convince the other side.”
How Math Explains the World—James D. Stein
Hussain-TheCanadian
@dwes09: @dwes09: I understand and appreciate you approach; I disagree with you also on the notion that logic and philosophy are not actual pathways in aiding and understanding what we can see but not understand.
Empirical evidence is not always clear cut either; there are times what we witness in the data can be screwed to our philosophical world view, and no where is that more apparent than in the works of some modern atheists.
Philosophy and logic are a must, that’s what we use to justify and legitimize our Gay identity; How can we divorce ourselves from it and say it doesn’t show or prove anything about our environment and the world around us?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@dwes09: I wanted to respond but then I read this:
“But even so, it would still be speculation”
(Smile)@1EqualityUSA: A wonderful quote.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: “Many of our cherished scientific models exist on an intellectual level because the paradigm of their existence makes sense, and depending of course on the scientific measurement or paradigm we are looking at.”
All science is based on measurement: empirical investigation. Theory is developed to explain data and observations, theory gains strength and acceptance by its ability to predict further data and observations. No scientific principles stand because “they make sense”, they stand because they WORK, both at explaining and at producing technology. Quantum theory makes no sense at all, but it works. Creationism makes a lot of sense to a shockingly large number of people, but it does not work. Science (such as it was) ceased to depend on making sense or the perceived logic of paradigms with the development of the scientific method. Yes, things like the ancient concept of the atom were philosophy based, but ultimately they were lucky guesses.
Among the most enduring concepts in the Tanakh (and one largely ignored by modern Christians) is that we cannot see, know or understand God. You cannot say a creator God exists or displays evidence (those who point to the “perfection” of creation simply ignore the fact that it is not perfect by any standards!). You can only say you believe in it. Even the name God supposedly gives itself is a riddle that is never pronounced nor understood.
Xzamilio
@Hussain-TheCanadian: That was — and sorry to say it — word salad. It sounded intelligent, but basically, I can whittle that down to assumptions of science and assumptions of a god you cannot prove exist? My intellect does not require your god to be physical if the properties you attribute to him did not require him to be physical. How many non-physical entities do you know have endless wisdom and knowledge? How many non-physical entities do you know that require male pronouns? What is that even about… if your god has no physical form, why “he”?
I’ll entertain your loose interpretation of scientific models, only because every single one of them has been falsified and scrutinized before becoming the basis for which most scientists conduct experiments, namely biology. The theory of evolution, the Big Bang, the theory of gravity… all tested, measured, scrutinized, and constantly challenged by OTHER scientists. None of that can be said for your god because it is placed in this realm beyond being falsified, which makes it useless to science.
bicurious
@Xzamilio: Xzamilio, I’ve been avidly following your intelligent commentary on this thread. Thank you!
I just read a NY Times article on a 15 year old village boy in Pakistan who cut off his own hand after he misunderstood a question asked by his imam. The imam asked a group who doesn’t love Muhammad. The boy thought the question was who does love Muhammad and eagerly raised his hand. The imam called him a blasphemer so the kid cut off his own hand.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/world/asia/boys-response-to-blasphemy-charge-unnerves-many-in-pakistan.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
I know it is naive of me, but I’ve always wanted and expected my fellow gays to be as intelligent as Xzamilio. I find it kind of sad to read that there are presumably educated modern society gays who follow a very similar belief system as that uneducated Pakistani village boy.
1EqualityUSA
bicurious, leave your body and live to tell about it.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: “Empirical evidence is not always clear cut either; there are times what we witness in the data can be screwed to our philosophical world view, and no where is that more apparent than in the works of some modern atheists.
“Philosophy and logic are a must, that’s what we use to justify and legitimize our Gay identity; How can we divorce ourselves from it and say it doesn’t show or prove anything about our environment and the world around us?”
It is theory that explains empirical data, and proves itself through the ability to predict further data that is found. I assumed you understood the scientific method. Please provide an example of how data can be “screwed to our philosophical world view”. That seems very unlikely when all valid theory has to be falsifiable. What “modern atheists” do you refer to? (certainly the moderns creationists twist the data to support pre-existing conclusions).
And what exactly do logic and philosophy have to do with legitimizing our existence? Statistics, genetics, epigenetics, field observations in nature and hypotheses regarding evolutionary advantage to a group of same sex bonded individuals legitimize us. In another sense legal battles do as well (and both sides use logic and philosophy in the fight there). And what do you suppose logic and philosophy actually prove, given that there are so many different philosophies making different claims about the nature of the world and the proper course of action in many instances! Were philosophy a path to truths about the world, be it physical or metaphysical, there would be one philosophy that proved, as with scientific theory, correct. One sees no such thing, but a groups of competing philosophical systems one chooses based on belief.
As for justifying our existence, I am not sure I understand what you mean. Clearly we exist! We need not justify that to anybody. All we need do is fight for the rights due us as individuals in a society ruled by law.
As you have no doubt seen from my posts on other articles, making a clear distinction between actualities and belief/myth wishful thinking is a huge issue with me.
Xzamilio
@bicurious: Thank you, but I would not call myself intelligent or even smarter than anyone on this board. I was just someone not satisfied with what I was reading in the bible, and challenged myself to look for evidence of the god I once believed in and found none. I, too, reconciled my being gay with a belief in a god that loved me unconditionally because the one in the bible was too evil for me to take seriously. But all it took was one former friend to brutally put my loose beliefs into perspective and the god I believed in made even less sense than the one in the bible. Then the research began, and I found other gods with similar claims like that of Jesus that were worshiped thousands of years before the bible books were even written.
There’s just too much evidence that these stories heavily borrow from each other and NONE that there is an actual god.
Hussain-TheCanadian
Queerty – My replies are not being posted – why?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Xzamilio: Lets break down and simplify the discussion shall we – A creation God, philosophically speaking, does not need a physical form to create – I believe that existing within time and space is limiting, and holds the being within the confines of said time and place.
I use the gender noun “He” because I am male; we can call him She, it doesn’t really matter, God is genderless. In Arabic, the noun He encompasses both male and female, we call it the “Royal He”.
I look at the cosmos and see engineering, you may not. To me those are traces of God.
Why do we need the five senses to partially comprehend God?
I don’t disagree with your second paragraph about scientists in the fields you listed – however the strongest advocates for God has been scientists, historically speaking.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@dwes09: I’m sorry dwes09 – im posting a reply but its not posting – The site is becoming buggy unfortunately – It deleted like 6 paragraphs – I’ll re-post tomorrow.
1EqualityUSA
Hussain-TheCanadian, There may be part of your brain’s anatomy that can perceive and discern this, just as others can sit down and compose music, do mind-blowing math, or write stories that capture our imaginations. The brain is a big, electrical computer and everybody has different abilities with their particular computer. You’re on to something there about moving beyond the five senses. Some are able to sense things that others cannot. Some have abilities that escape others. It’s our brains capacity. I paint, others couldn’t draw a stick figure. It all comes down to the noodle we have.
Xzamilio
@Hussain-TheCanadian:
“Lets break down and simplify the discussion shall we – A creation God, philosophically speaking, does not need a physical form to create – I believe that existing within time and space is limiting, and holds the being within the confines of said time and place.”
What? Okay, you believe that existing within time and space is limiting… so what? Like I said before, how do you distinguish between a being that exists beyond your comprehension — or beyond time and space — from one that doesn’t exist? You can’t… it’s pointless. I don’t care what you believe philosophically, because you can philosophically explain all kinds of things into existence… but that doesn’t make it any more plausible when looking at it scientifically or objectively.
You look at the cosmos and see engineering… tantamount to “look at the birds and the trees.” Again, I don’t care… it doesn’t demonstrate anything.
“Why do we need the five senses to partially comprehend God?
I don’t disagree with your second paragraph about scientists in the fields you listed – however the strongest advocates for God has been scientists, historically speaking.”
One, I already addressed the argument from authority. A claim doesn’t have clout just because the person making it has a reputable standing… that’s like Einstein believing in the tooth fairy. Great, he was a physicist and is the father of the theory of Relativity, but ain’t no damn evidence of a freaking tooth fairy. And I reject your question regarding the five senses because you haven’t even definitively defined your god to the point where our five senses would or would not suffice to comprehend its existence. And since you already stated you didn’t know any of this for fact, you assert faith… and where faith enters, reason exits.
nature boy
I think what’s missing in this discussion is the power of a good local church or temple. Meaning a group of like-minded people, trying to be nicer people, trying to support each other and accomplish community works and also studying/exploring spirituality as a common connection. Where else do you find that in our society? The right church can be a really wonderful powerful extra family in your life— wonderful for gays that may have strained relationships with their genetic families— church can be a family that will be there when you need help with illness, death, depression, etc in some very incredible and supportive ways. Yes— you can be spiritual on your own but then when you run up into a problem you’re still on your own. If you’ve been “being spiritual” in a church then when you run up into a problem there’s a big safety net of nice people there to help you. Significant illness? Death? Their well oiled wheels swing right into motion to help out.
Some churches also accomplish a lot of good works in a community, that government is currently failing at. Churches are also a major place where music is created/found/heard in many small communities that don’t have other venues.
You can argue about God and religion all you want, in any church you will find people with different beliefs and understandings. It doesn’t diminish the potential strength and goodness of a good local church. Some of my most powerful , lasting, and loving friendships have developed in small town churches… and I feel very sorry for anyone who just totally dismisses church without trying to find a good one that matches them. People are lonely and sad in this world and church can help a lot. There are a lot of LGBT supportive and welcoming churches. They just don’t get the publicity of the national hate-mongers. But they do exist ! If you grew up in the Christian tradition then I would say look for United Church of Christ, Metropolitan Community Church, or ELCA Lutheran (not Missouri Synod Lutheran).. Episcopal and Presbyterian are making rapid strides as well in LGBT support and welcome.
nature boy
Let me add Unitarian Universalist (UU) as another great welcoming church that might make your life richer in unexpected ways.
The Tower of Power
@Hussain-TheCanadian: So then the argument the universe is fine-tuned is nonsense. Since we have no way of knowing if life can exist in different possible universes, you cannot say our universe has special or unique qualities allowing life to exist here.
This is something we will never be able to prove since the number of all possible universes is endless.
Saying you have seen images of footprints in the cosmos is evidence of a supernatural being is like saying clouds in the sky are evidence dragons exist. After all, dragons breathe fire and clouds are really their exhalation.
regarded God as an illusion, based on the infantile need for a powerful father figure; religion, necessary to help us restrain violent impulses earlier in the development of civilization, can now be set aside in favor of reason and science
1EqualityUSA
There was a heart surgeon in Texas who saw that the patients, who had people praying for them, fared better than those who didn’t. He did an experiment whereby the same amount of bacteria was placed in separate beakers. He had a congregation pray over one of the beakers to proliferate and for the other beaker, they prayed for bacteria levels in their beaker to go down. The results of the test were amazing as the amount of bacteria in the beakers each responded to the specific prayer groups. Scientists, working with micro, micro, super-micro worlds discovered that they could move these micro particles with their minds. They could draw the matter from one side to the other with their thoughts alone. Our brains are more powerful than we think. It is mysterious and wonderful. These flesh bodies are not all we are.
The Tower of Power
@1EqualityUSA: So all it takes to change the world are thoughts? You mean there couldn’t have been any other conditions in the surroundings that caused the changes? No two organisms are exactly the same, and there could have been variables in their states that affected their health and reproduction.
It’s really sad to me that so many people in North America still cling to supernatural explanations for things instead of getting a better understanding of physics.
There’s a famous saying from Duke University professor Alex Rosenberg: Physics fixes all the facts.
This means that all the other facts— the chemical, biological, psychological, social, economic, political, cultural facts supervene on the physical facts and are ultimately explained by them. And if physics can’t in principle fix a putative fact, it is no fact after all
Xzamilio
@1EqualityUSA: Citation needed. Because the one prayer study conducted at an official level had very different outcomes. See for yourself:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=
1EqualityUSA
http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm
This may not be the article I read nearly a decade ago. It was based in Texas and he was a heart surgeon. Fascinating stuff. It bears exploration.
youarekiddingme
@Jim:
For those who are raving about the Episcopal Church…it looks like you may have some work to do: http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2012/07/why-is-the-episcopal-church-near-collapse.php
That church has been defending itself from litigation against it’s own local churches. Their number (members) have been dropping drastically in recent years.
@Hussain-TheCanadian: @Dakotahgeo:
With all the good that “organized” religions are supposed to do in this world, why is it that they keep building larger and larger churches (in poorer and poorer communities)? Why do they purchase jets and other extravagances, accumulate vast sums of wealth and pay their leadership outrageous salaries while the poor, hungry, diseased, uneducated and scorned people exist all around them? Increasing revenue does little if all the organization does is spend it on themselves…Wasn’t Jesus Poor? Didn’t he give the clothes off his own back to those in need? Why is it that organized religions tend to be so greedy? Why is it that the Catholic Church is the wealthiest entity on earth?
I don’t particularly have a problem with those who have their beliefs but I do have a problem with organized religions who tend to have leaders and build a hierarchy that says you have to pray/go through them to reach heaven/salvation…Can’t you read the bible for yourself and practice being a good Christian (without dumping your hard earned money) into some phony who “interprets” the bible the way he/she wants/thinks it should be interpreted? Aren’t we intelligent enough to read/comprehend and make decisions for ourselves? What do they know that we don’t? Most of these folks don’t possess advanced degrees, nor have they done research in the ancient languages that the bible was actually written in…They are relying on the same translation/version (probably King James Version) that all the rest of us rely on.
Organized religion, if REGULATED might actually work. The problem is that church/state is mixed. Church has influenced politics. Church gets tax exempt status. Churches are NOT audited like public institutions are so no one really knows what’s “under the hood” of the finances. They should be permitted a bare minimum of profit and the rest given back to the community through charity events, poor, homeless, etc. Any large purchases (jet planes, huge salaries, large church building expansions) should be tightly monitored. Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!
1EqualityUSA
youarekidding me, I agree. Organized religion sucks sideways, especially when they’re entangled in worldly politics. I have nothing at all to do with any churches. My ma got mad at the Pope and yanked us all out of that diabolical system very early, before they had a chance to ruin us. I do like to read a lot. I’ve seen a ton of death in my life, too much during the AIDS crisis, and have left my own body when I was a young adult. Ever since then, any texts that describes the spirit catches my ear.
youarekiddingme
@1EqualityUSA: Can’t agree more. I got out of that twisted catholic church as well. What a group of hypocritical bastards (referring to hierarchy…not members)!
EvonCook
@LP – Hired Stud: For very good reason. Your sexuality is a fact and your own business; your religious ideas are an aberration, a fabrication and deeply offensive and offending to others.
EvonCook
@Stefano: Well, sorry to disagree, but we are indeed a lot smarter if only by virtue of our outsider experience and status from the brainwashed majority. We are not all better, or smarter or more honest, but overall gays certainly are smarter than your average straight joe. No doubt about it. And ours is a ghetto I’d rather be in than any other by far.
EvonCook
@dustashed: Yes, gay men are often good and generous citizens even in the face of hateful and bigoted institutions and communities.
EvonCook
@Dakotahgeo: You truly must be joking or are hopelessly lost in your self-righteous religious delusions. “never see it coming?” I am certain the only ones who will be sadly surprised are the religionists who have lived distorted, controlled, aberrant and arrogant lives thinking they are somehow superior for believing in their own spun fairytales, their own made up deities and their own self-serving dogma. Gays are intrinsically more like intelligent natural bonobo monkeys which live the here and now life to the fullest instead of sacrificing, abstaining, condemning others, avoiding reality and martyring themselves for some fictional afterlife and imagined deity.
Cyn
So you are defining faith as following one of the abrahamics? Really? Remember there are those of us of anti or poly theistic faiths that have nothing to do with your gods and teachings, and who are appalled by the behavior of their fan clubs.
EvonCook
@BlueDude: There is no proof either way??? No, no , no. There simply is NO proof AT ALL of something you try to make claim to: a god, an afterlife, or even most of the supposed history to the tale. We don’t have to prove a negative: that your deity doesn’t exist. You think some god exists and want others to believe it or to be taken seriously or acknowledged or to have others pay respect while you pretend to be a rational, intelligent reality-based human being and positive member of the community, then cut the gotta have “faith” excuse for no evidence, no factual proof and no reasonable logic to the very basis and heart of your absurd ideology.
EvonCook
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Why would any rational, intelligent, healthy free human being believe and act according to a fantasy deity which is contrary to most natural laws and restrictive, bigoted, arrogantly exclusive by definition and only existent in the hocus-pocus of proponent religionists. The abrahamics are simply the largest and worst of the established monotheism and are considerably inferior to most non-monotheistic, nature based (read”pagan”) belief systems. Being antigay and anti-sex and anti-natural just to differentiate themselves from earlier and dominate believe systems,the abrahamics are all (jewish, christian and muslim) the most dangerous, arrogant and violence prone. One of the very few things that unites these three hate filled competing bigoted ideologies or belief constructs is the condemnation and intolerance for gays and sexuality (unless said sexuality is utilized to propagate their numbers). No one who is truly rational or humane could accept or live by or treat others by such tripe.
Xzamilio
@1EqualityUSA: Okay, there were absolutely no references in that “article”, and not one external link. And furthermore, there was no demonstration of how prayer was definitively found to be the catalyst for the end result… just the assertion. And prayer to whom? Was it just random praying and putting good words out there, or was there an end being that these individuals were praying to, because proof that prayer works doesn’t even begin to prove that the god they are praying to is real… but I digress, because if prayer worked, we wouldn’t need studies… it would just be as obvious at it apparently was in the bible, because THAT god did extraordinary things in front of an audience and now in the era of 24 hour surveillance… nothing. Things that make you go hmmmm
1EqualityUSA
“THAT god did extraordinary things in front of an audience” and yet the Pharisees, in their pride, still did not believe. There will always be scoffers and non-believers of anything spiritual, now, as in ancient times. This will never be solved. I contend that the root of faith is biochemical and that our big computers called brains have some with a propensity towards spiritual matters, just as some have other gifts. Algebra is lost on some, whereas others soak it up and wallow in math as though it’s their second language. Possibly nerve cells are denser in their intraparietal sulcus. Math comes naturally to a brain with nerve cells congregated in this area of the brain. Whether it’s a gift of math or a gift of faith, I see them both as gifts. Organized religion is not a gift, it’s a pain in the ass for everyone. Humans are so flawed. A group of humans are scary-flawed. The fact that our tax dollars go to fund these haters is infuriating. This is why I have zero connection to any church on this round Earth. I have no answers that will satisfy you, Xzamilio, at least nothing quantifiable. I have my own experience and that will not suffice. I do know that these bodies are like Volvos driving on a freeway. Once the spirits slips away, they pull over to the shoulder and stop. Our flesh falls apart, disintegrating into particulate matter, dust. These bodies are temporary. Energy exists outside of these encasements. I know from my own experience. This answer lacks, I understand. I once, at the age of seven or so, tried to explain color to a blind girl in the park. It went about as well as this.
Xzamilio
@1EqualityUSA: Yeah, let’s not get into bible stories, because circular reasoning comes into play, and that’s a can of worms to avoid. Here’s the deal: if your personal experiences lead you to believe in a deity, then you are personally justified in your belief as it is your experience and your life. But you are right… it does not satisfy me, solely because it is your subjective experience that you cannot demonstrate in an objective manner. You are also right that organized religion is a pain in the ass, but I will go further and compare it to reality TV: it had a great purpose in its beginning, but now it’s doing more harm than good. I reject your contention on the grounds of it being an assertion, but I understand the analogy.
Hussain-TheCanadian
Ok this is pissing me off – I keep on posting my responses to dwes and Xzamilion and it doesn’t post, the page refreshes and nothing happens – sometimes if I copy and paste the reply from Microsoft word, i get an error message that says “duplicate, or your are writing and posting the response too fast”.
What’s going on? I’ve been trying to do this since morning.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Obviously i’m not blocked, and the only thing i’m noticing that is different from what i’m doing now is that i’m not copying my paragraphs from Microsoft word.
Is this the issue? I really don’t feel like retyping all of those paragraphs.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Hussain-TheCanadian: That’s all fine and good until you begin to read the Multiverse and string theories, and begin to find out very quickly that such scientific theories are not based on anything measured, tangible or even observable – One needs logic and philosophy to pan such theories.
Science is supposed to be what you wrote, that part is true, but to claim that a human being, scientist or not, does not subject the data to their own biases and world view is simply not correct. That’s why we have multiple scientists debating every single aspect of every single theorem available. I’m not talking about the actual data, but about the conclusion one reaches when looking at the data.
Creation cannot be perfect, I agree with you on that.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Do you not think we need logic and philosophy to bind all of those findings together? The scientific method by itself cannot be the explanation in of itself – philosophical reasoning is indeed needed to make sense of what is being observed. All early scientists are philosophers, especially when it comes on the question of “the Origin of life” – you need logic and reason to pan your conclusion. One modern example is Richard Dawkins.
You do bring excellent points about genetics, epigenetics, field observations of same-sex bonding, and some possible evolutionary advantages, so I cannot disagree with that.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Do you not think we need logic and philosophy to bind all of those findings together? The scientific method by itself cannot be the explanation in of itself – philosophical reasoning is indeed needed to make sense of what is being observed. All early scientists are philosophers, especially when it comes on the question of “the Origin of life” – you need logic and reason to pan your conclusion. I’m also not using philosophy when it encompasses life, traditions, sacred history, sacred stories, human rights, democracy, or political systems – I’m specifically speaking about our struggle with the prouder straight community.
The battle to win hearts and minds of those who don’t understand us is indeed based on a logical based reasoning of acceptance, no?
We don’t only talk about biology and psychology when it comes to our community, we don’t say “we exist” and hence you must accept this existence, its a little bit more nuanced than that, no?
P.S.
Yes I do follow your posts when it comes to these distinctions, and even though we disagree, I do enjoy what i’m reading very much.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Hussain-TheCanadian: The above responses are to dwes09.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Xzamilio: Of course God has to exist outside the five senses – there are many logical reasons why God cannot be in a physical form but that’s not our discussion here.
You asked me to differentiate between an unseen God, and a not existing God, and the answer to this question is two folds – The observable universe has the signs of fine tuning, signs of an engineer who built what we see – If it was only my opinion then yes you can give that hollow tree analogy, but when scientists begin to make the same observations, it matters.
The second fold has to do with metaphysics and how the mind is a window to what we call a “Soul” – many scientists across the globe are looking into this. Could God exist within this plain of the Mind – maybe – I don’t know but it seems likely.
Now read those words very carefully – I don’t want my explanation to turn to “word salad” again – Many many things exist outside the five senses, and the most obvious is the Mind – our memories and experiences – they are not tangible yet they are there. Remember, im talking about the Mind, not the Brain.
Also, I said “partial comprehension”, not full comprehension.
Your attitude towards Einstein are sign of hubris – When he talks about how the metaphysical world factors into how work, we listen – whether you want to accept his hypothesis because you don’t like its conclusions are up to you.
1EqualityUSA
Hussain-TheCanadian, You said, “I’m talking about the mind, not the Brain” as though the two do not cross paths.
1EqualityUSA
That grey zone between flesh and spirit fascinates me. At what point does energy impress itself upon our mechanics?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@The Tower of Power: You have a inbuilt assumption that there are other Universes, which I reject as unscientific and ridiculous – The idea of the Multiverse itself is a philosophical response to the “fine-tuned” observations made by people who studied the cosmos, and its physical laws.
The rest of your post is an opinion trying to explain why intelligent people believe in things unseen, it’s no different than what Freud said about homosexuality in the theory of ” libidinal arrest”.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@youarekiddingme: I have no issue with what you wrote – I agree – It’s a racket.
I’m not really talking about organized religion in my above posts, be it Islam or Christianity – I’m just talking about God, and is there a rational basis for believing in such a Being – everything else, be it Islam or Christianity, are really tools, pathways, to that ultimate power and conscientiousness.
1EqualityUSA
So, if a group of faithful believers of any persuasion gather, directing their energy in unison, does it make their endeavor more powerful? Even the misled can direct concentrated energy, though the weight of corruption weakens it, the yield, suspect fruit and strife. Religion brings several minds together, an electrical surge, practically speaking. What a powerful notion.
Xzamilio said, “It had a great purpose in its beginning, but now it’s doing more harm than good.”
What happens when one set of humans continues on, channeling energy in a group, while others put energy into other things, such as reality shows, internet, politics, and self-interests, self-expression, science, work, and play?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@1EqualityUSA: No they do – logically they have to (smile)
Ogre Magi
Why would any lgbt people belong to an institution that has devoted the last 2000 years to persecuting their own kind?
Xzamilio
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Still no closer to demonstrating a god exists. And I’m done with this, so have fun.
youarekiddingme
@Hussain-TheCanadian: I sort of figured you were the level-headed one on the topic of “organized religions.” I see that neither of the other two would respond to my charges on those corrupt organizations. I just don’t get how an LGBTQ person can support an organization that is inherently filled with so much corruption and disdain for others. The hypocracy of these organizations is beyond belief. How they can justify putting up these huge churches/synagogues/temples (whatever they want to call them) in neighborhoods where people live well below the poverty line is well beyond my comprehension. They get richer and the poor get poorer. Christians…indeed. Nothing about these Organized Religions says anything about the teachings of Christ.
Thanks for your level-headed response.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@youarekiddingme: Thank you so much for your praise; I really enjoy reading your posts (smile).
Hussain-TheCanadian
@Xzamilio: Thank you for the chat – I wish you’d have answered some of my questions though (sad face).
ronnierocks
@LP – Hired Stud: Truth be told Stud, while my new Christian buddies invited me to hang out with them, my gay friends treated me as a loser!
ronnierocks
@Ogre Magi: GREETINGS Ogre Magi! It’s not the fallible “Christian” institution that we LGBT’s need to be a part of, it’s the infallible God who draws.
ronnierocks
@Ogre Magi: GREETINGS Ogre Magi! It’s not the fallible “Christian” institution that we LGBT’s need to be a part of, it’s the infallible God who draws us.
ronnierocks
Know this: God does not make mistakes. And nothing surprises God!
ronnierocks
@Chris: “Anthropomorphism”? Seriously? Chris, thx for the new word! I only hope I get e chance to use it in a sentence as well as you did! No, seriously!
ronnierocks
GREETINGS! Forgive me if I’m new to this blogging. But of all the comments I’m reading, each one gets me more charged up to get involved. At 33 yo. I went back into the closet because the “CHURCH” (whatever that is really) made me feel that I had to. But the millennial gays are coming to grips with God & sexuality in a way I had always prayed for. I am encouraged to “come out” again at 66 yo. as a born-again Christian. I now know that God never intended RELIGION but rather RELATIONSHIP! Walking with the Lord is not a matter of being accepted but rather being FORGIVEN, not for being gay but rather for being human.
Dakotahgeo
@ronnierocks: Wow !!! Abreath of fresh air! You won’t find many sane comments on these blogs. The GLBT crowd who are Christian need people like us to support them. Welcome aboard! Pastor (George M Melby) on facebook.
ronnierocks
@Dakotahgeo: Thanks much Pastor! How do I find you on Facebook? (I’m new on that too!) I’ve checked out a lot of YouTubers coming out online and discovered the “It Gets Better Project” and am hopeful that I might get involved somehow. I’ve done a bit of Bible study but I don’t know where to take it.
Dakotahgeo
Just type in my name (George M Melby) in the Search window or contact me directly at [email protected]; Kudos! I have a number of references regarding homosexuality and the RRR (radical religious right) and the Bible’s real stance on homosexuality. Kudos.
rbettenc
@ronnierocks: Ronnie, I’m glad to hear you’re thinking of coming out again. It’s important to be true to oneself. Best of luck to you. I’d love to help, if I can.
ronnierocks
Rick, thanks for the word! Truth be told, I AM getting LOST instead of FINDING my new self in all the blogs, e-mails, websites, & everything. I’m praying that your website will afford me some education, knowledge, entertainment, “or even arouse a little sexy time.” (ANY sexy time is a good thing!)
thx & P.T.L!
r