“You’re not concerned for his health, REAM, you’re concerned for your sex life and what the death of your attraction to him means for this relationship. So give it to him straight: You’re not attracted to fatties, which is why you pursued him four years ago, and his weight gain is killing your sex life and threatening the survival of your relationship. If he values this relationship, he’ll get his ass off the couch.
And now a note to the infuriated fatsophere: I’m not saying that REAM’s boyfriend is unattractive because he’s heavier, or that heavy people aren’t or can’t be attractive, or that we all must forever maintain our “first-date weight” over the multidecade course of relationship/marriage/whatever. But to destroy a large part of what attracted someone to you early in a relationshipâwhether actively or through neglectâis to take your partner for granted in a way that’s not okay. And that goes for a tight-bodied fag who parks his ass on the couch because he’s got a boyfriend nowâso, hey, why bother with the gym?âand the BBW who wastes away to skin and bones after she lands an admirer.” — Sexpert and Stranger columnist Dan Savage, replying to a 22-year-old gay guy in a LTR with a boyfriend who’s let himself go.
Thought of the Day: Dan Savage
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The Milkman
“the infuriated fatosphere”
OMG that might be the funniest 3 words I’ve heard all week!
Dan Savage is my secret boyfriend. Y’all bitches better back away from the funny/smart guy.
(Does that, hopefully, make me “the other Mrs. Savage”? Ever since “the other Mrs. Mitterand”, I’ve been hoping for a similar title.)
Gregoire
If everything else remains the same, but only the body changes, and but he’s still objecting — it isn’t love.
But I suspect that if his partner has gotten heavier, then in fact, something has changed inside — he’s unmotivated, lazy, depressed. Etc.
THAT’s the problem. Not the weight gain. That’s only a side effect. Would you dump somebody you loved who was sick and got fat because of it? Unless you were a dick, unless you didn’t love them, I doubt you would.
Jennifer
I have to agree with Dan, but also with Gregoire (to a degree). If the weight gain is about something other than sheer sloth, then I agree, find out what the problem is. If there is no problem other than cheetos + couch, then sorry! No dice. We all owe our partners some kind of respect and part of that is maintaining ourselves to some standard of physical presentability. I would feel the same about someone who started wearing the same pair of track pants all the time. It’s not respectful to one’s partner OR one’s self to chunk up due to neglect.
Michael W.
When you’re old and ready to settle down someday then being with someone who’s fat might be acceptable. But at 22 he’s still got his youth and needs to be out there enjoying all the good dick and ass he can. So why settle for some fatty? Get rid of him and keep it moving while you still can. You’ll never have those years back and they shouldn’t be wasted on some big, shapeless lump of nothing.
hardmannyc
When I got my lover, people said, “why do you work out?” I said, “I worked out to get him. Now I’m working out to keep him!”
ggreen
@Gregoire:
This is too true. If your BF got the small pox you wouldnââŹâ˘t like that either but if it killed your relationship it wasnââŹâ˘t love. DS is always denigrating bears and large guys to quote Dan ââŹĹI likes ââŹËem skinny.ââŹÂ
Graham
Whatever, I think Dan Savage is brilliant and hilarious but he’s kinda superficial and “fat-phobic.” Yes, he throws a bone to people who are attracted to fat people at the end of your quote here, but he routinely jokes about fat people in his column.
And while, yes, a few bloggers refer to themselves as part of the “fatosphere” (got knows why), he jumped on the term as a way to laugh at the absurdity of anyone possibly being attracted to non-twinks. “It’s what they call themselves!” he says (http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/06/wait_until_the_fatosphere_gets_a_load_of) the way racists will qualify their use of the word “nigga” or homophobes might sarcastically use the word “queer.”
Semantics aside, I think it’s really just a question of how superficial your relationship is if you want to dump someone based on their weight gain/loss. If you’re only together for good sex and nothing else, then sure, you should dump them… they can do better than you anyway. If you have a deeper connection and their physical appearance is messing with your sex life, you work it out with them.
Matthew Rettenmund
Right, it’s okay to tell someone that they’re no longer attractive to you, therefore the relationship is over. Hopefully, anyone getting into a long-term relationship really lusts after decrepit old men, because we’ll all turn into that, too, unless he die.
Paul Raposo
@Gregoire:
Has Dan taken into consideration that maybe REAM drove his BF to weight gain? Same thing happened to a previous BF of mine; in his previous relationship he gained over 30 pounds because right from the get go the BF treated him like shit. It was my former BF’s first LTR and he didn’t really know how to handle the abuse and just ate his feelings and the fatter he got, the crueler the BF got.
That said, that anyone looks to Dan Savage for advice is absurd–he’s a father who leaves his kid at home with the man he refuses to marry, so he can go out slutting around.
Sean
So does aging count too? If your partner/bf passes a certain age and wrinkles does that give you a reason too? This is just stupid.
Sean
And isnt this the reason our community gets criticism when it comes to monogomy?
Bob
Seriously? We should make it our mission to stay thin to keep a relationship? Honey, if your “relationship” is only based on how hot your think your man is, it’s pretty fuckin’ shallow to begin with. Can’t wait for the 22-year-old turned-off boy to turn 40 or 50 or 60 and be rejected by the other vapid queers like him. Maybe he’ll evolve then. Maybe.
Bob
“You’ll never have those years back and they shouldn’t be wasted on some big, shapeless lump of nothing.”
Guess REAM isn’t the only one who needs to evolve. My people, how they shame me.
Gregoire
@Paul Raposo: Has Dan taken into consideration that maybe REAM drove his BF to weight gain?
Haha! Such a good question. Another question — maybe the boyfriend isn’t really fat at all, just not to some bizarre, unnatural standard that the writer of the letter intends.
Regardless, Dan’s advice is right if the reasoning is flawed.
peet
Oh whatEVER! Get off your high horses, boys, and join the vapid, shallow, and youth-obsessed society that everyone – gay or straight – lives in. Seriously, when you’re at the bar, do you give the fat guy compensating by being overly friendly (they’re ubiquitous) the time of day? I think not, at least for the majority of you. And ok, so REAM is probably a bit of a douchebag, but come on; would you really stay in a relationship with someone that you weren’t attracted to anymore?
You guys are really taking this universal acceptance crap a little too far: being a fatty is a personal choice, and such choices have unfortunate consequences, such as getting kicked to the curb and having to choose between staying single or settling for less than your skinny self would have.
The Gay Numbers
We know nothing about this person’s life other than he gained weight. That’s the problem with advice columnist and the idiots who use them. What if he’s got some disease that causes him to gain weight or is on medication that requires it? Do we know this? What if they are getting older and the guy is working a lot more hours at work? again, do we know this? I don’t. Just speculating that life is not all clear and simple as the gay upper class wants to believe. Its taken me a long time to break way from the mentality that it is.
Michael W.
@Bob: Who says you have to stay fit to keep a relationship? Shouldn’t you do it because it’s healthy and right? Then maybe having a nice boyfriend on your arm can be a plus.
People that stay in shape when they’re single and let their bodies go after they catch a fish ought to be ashamed of themselves. It’s deceptive. If you’re a fat fuck who can’t wait to park back on the couch and break out the cookie dough ice-cream then tell me before we start to get serious so we don’t waste any more of our time. You’re not some woman who had kids, you’re a grown ass man and should be able to maintain the body that attracted your boyfriend to you in the first place.
All this love shit. At 22 he doesn’t know what the hell love is.
ask ena
Sorry folks…LTR? The boy is 22 years old for crying out loud. LTR in gay years is 6 months, and if it takes that long for a dudes baggage to emerge (on the brain OR on the waist), and he’s not into it, what is the big deal? Even if the guy turns out to be clinically depressed, if marriage vows were not taken (in sickness and in health, till death do us part…), then how is he obliged to take that on?
And speaking of marriage…
rayrayj
I’m overweight, considered a Bear by many, and I think Dan is totally on target, including his reasoning. I have experienced the other side of the argument when I have lost weight in the past. There is however no similarity between the situation described in Savage Love and one in which a partner contracts a disease. Obesity is generally due to lack of activity and overeating, not a disease, and if it is a disease; should the overweight partner not be urged to seek medical attention? Moreover, to ask what he would do if they were in their 30’s or 40’s will be relevant when they are in their 30’s or 40’s, but they are not. They are in their 20’s.
Mr. Savage did not simply suggest that the writer simply DTMA (Dump the Motherfucker Already) but did give him permission to talk with is partner and explain his frustration. It remains true that if the partner does not value the writer enough to make some effort to address the writers concern about his weight gain then who is the superficial one. If you read the letter to Dan, the writer still loves the overweight boyfriend but the sexual attraction has waned.
Should we accept partners who don’t want to clean up after themselves, brush their teeth or, do their laundry? These are behaviors like exercise and eating? I don’t believe that overweight people are gross, or even slovenly. Again, I am overweight.
In my case when it became clear the my “Bear” boyfriend valued my weight over my health I chose to DTMA.
Graham
@Michael W.: What’s love?
Trog
my prognosis: the skinny bf is a nag and bore who has totally depressed his partner, who, in order to cope, has turned to food and television. Fat is a symptom, not the problem.
Michael W.
@Graham: I wouldn’t know.
hardmannyc
The difference between getting fat and aging is that both partners age. If only gets fat, it’s gross for the nonfat partner. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. And yes, sex is an important part of any partner relationship. Deal with it. Straight men and women have for centuries.
RainaWeather
If you dump your boyfriend because he’s fat, you don’t love him, you’re using him as a sex toy.
Brian Miller
Some guys settle with a guy whose body they are attracted to. Others settle with someone because of his dick size, amount of money he has, etc.
Let’s be real here… telling the man you “love” that you’re going to dump him if he doesn’t lose 20 lbs. is like telling him you’re going to dump him because he is making less money and can no longer buy you a Lexus, or that you have to dump him because he’s over 30.
Call it attraction, call it what you will, but stop kidding yourself by saying you are “in love.” When you truly love someone, you hardly notice how he looks or how much he makes or what car he drives. Anything else is just lust, and REAM should do his BF a favor and leave him now.
Then, in another 15 years, he can write a tearful missive on how many guys won’t date someone over 35. Karma can be nasty!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Michael W.:
Thats đ
Yet another Michael
PEET: “when you’re at the bar…”
Yeah, I’m not at the bar. That might be the big difference. This past year and a half, I put on about 10 or 15 extra lbs and now I have some love handles and a little gut. My guy (8 years) finds it adorable and loves to squeeze them, etc… I don’t care for them and am working hard to shed it, but in the end, it wouldn’t matter; our relationship isn’t a vapid 22 year old’s. We’re in a our mid-thirties and completely happy with each other. I think Dan missed the mark a little here. Of course, he isn’t a licensed therapist or anything.
Bob
Michael W, I can truly say based on your two posts that you are someone I would never want to meet. You sound like a complete narcissistic prick. Why in God’s name can’t we be decent to each other? It’s fine to not be attracted to overweight men, but to demean and dehumanize them by calling them “shapeless lumps of nothing” and “fat fucks” only shows what an absolutely vile person you are.
Marty
Savage is too typical of a fat-hating ilk of gay man who think they can defame fat folks but at the same time insist they are not. Getting fat is a symptom of many other things and it is stupid to think that it comes about solely because someone has parked “on the couch”. There is a lot more to it. If someone does not consider these factors and dumbs it down to being sarcastic or accusing, they have no clue. But then Savage is more about the clever bon mots than dispensing with anything resembling truly sensible advise.
As for the hateful attitude toward fat folks, those of you who spew vitriol toward them really need to come up with something better to do with your inner selves – hating is as vile a trait as any morbidly obese person you could malign, and an ugly spirit will lose you more lovers tenfold than putting on thirty or however many pounds ever could. Ugly hateful people end up with ugly hateful lives, but many a fat person who is beautiful inside ends up contented and at peace. That matters more.
sdandy
Please don’t give savage more attention. Please.
michael
I don’t know much about Dan but I do wonder what makes him qualified to give out advice that could have huge consequences on ones life? Is the guy writing for advice just looking for somebody to release him from his guilt so that he does not have to do the difficult task of searching his own soul? This is why therapists don’t tell people what to think, feel, or do. Because nobody knows what is right for another person other than that person themselves. Now I am sure Dan is an okay guy but in my world he might get picked up and fucked by one of my friends if they had one to many but he is not good looking enough that any would keep on dating him. shallow, yes,. but most of my friends are in the top 10 percentile in the looks department and why would they select someone who is kind of average to develop a relationship with? So, all of you out there in the uglysphere remember that there are only a handful of us that have all the bases covered. Actually I just looked at Dans photo again and he really is no Brad Pitt, thin maybe, but a kinda goofy looking actually. Cheers!
michael
Actually, I just looked at his photo again, my friends probably would not fuck him even if they had one to many. They might let him blow them through a glory hole but that about as close as he could get.
Jersey
Just a note to Paul Raposo, Dan Savage did go to Canada and married his partner several years ago. In fact he wrote an entire book about it. You should think before you make such a dumb statement.
smartass
You are soo frickn smart Dan. I hear the smart all the time, but I think you are holding out! Can we have some eye candy and see your very smart ass?!
Vanhattan
When I was 30 I had a 29 inch waist. Now I am 47 and have a 35 inch waist. However, IMHO, I still look FAR better than Dan and most of the skinny minnies who are obsessed with nothing but the gym, their carb intake and their next botox treatments and one night stand.
Hell, I get hit on now more than I did then….wonder why….??? Maybe it is because I offer a level of depth, love, laughter, wisdom and compassion that people like Dan can only hope to even give themselves.
So my answer to the Dear Dan fan would have been more focused, namely, if all the guy valued in his partner was his waist size and body mass index (BMI), then of course he should leave the fat guy. On the other hand, if the guy valued his partner for his kindness, love, compassion, character, sparkle, wisdom, friendship or any other redeaming quality beyond the superficial, then he should stay and if his partners’ BMI reached an unhealthy level then he should share his concerns regarding the impact it may have on his health.
The Gays can be such superficial fucks. It all stems from inner self hate extended outward. In otherwords, the gays need to grow the fuck up and learn before it is too late what is to be valued in life.
I don’t ever imagine myself regretting my waist size on my deathbed. I may however regret losing the love of my life because I was such a shallow creep that I could not look past a few extra pounds.
inque1784
Wow, I had no idea being fat was so controversial!
First of all, Fuck You(TM) to the “shapeless lump” guy. Just because you won’t fuck one of us doesn’t mean no one will. I have fat friends that have gotten more skinny ass than you ever will. Not everyone poses like a pretentious douche bag at generic gay bars to get laid. It may sound cliched but there is more to life than fucking, and everyone has different priorities, even at 22. Just because your in your 20’s doesn’t mean you are required to be a whore. And just because you are/were/going to be a whore doesn’t mean that everyone else should/have/is going to. What a narcissistic little prick to think that your standards are a universal standard of beauty and behavior.
Regarding the letter, if the guys feelings have changed, he should talk with his boyfriend and tell him that, assuming he wants to salvage the relationship. It seems more like he’s bored and wants to move on. He’s 22, it’s doubtful he’s in love.
Savage has been like this for a while. It’s his personal vendetta. Apparently he had an extra 20 pounds when he was in middle school and now we all have to hear his backhanded “advice” and diatribes. I don’t know why he can’t drop the subject. Maybe it’s because it starts so much shit, and attracts readers.
DavidW
My OH-my, can we lighten this up a little bit? Dan, you’re a smart advisor, but really, lets be serious, I know you are cute and smart, but will you punt for us and show us your bare ass pic?
Mister C
The Fatter,Thicker,Chubbier….THE BETTER!
The Lesbian Mafia
on episode 114 of Dan Savages podcast, he tells a lesbian caller than lesbians crave c*ck hunger. she was clearly bisexual. he goes on about how lesbians have stark raving mad c*ck hunger where as men do not crave women ever.
this guy is not only inherently hurtful to any lesbians who may be listening but he is embarrassingly uneducated about his community, particularly the lesbian community which also happens to be part of the gay community, which people of dan’s generation often like to deliberately forget.
lesbians have been hit on by more men in gay clubs than we ever discuss publicly because we have some g*ddamn sense not to defame our own community. dan should take a lesson.
and with the recent brutal hate motivated gang rape of the 28 year old lesbian in california. perhaps he should take a back seat to his conetmptuousness of lesbians and general disdain for women.
it’s NOT OUR FAULT he was NOT born with a vagina.
shame that it always seems to be these types that represent the community and embarrass us.
a sex change would be the rememdy here.
sparkle obama
@Michael W.:
surprise!
peet
@Yet another Michael:It’s great that your man doesn’t mind you a little soft ’round the edges, and thus you still enjoy comfortable coupled contentment. However, not everyone shares his sensibilities, which is why Dan’s advice was correct. Granted, REAM should employ tact when dumping his guy, but the fat guy should be dumped nonetheless if REAM isn’t attracted to him anymore.
As for 22 year-old relationships being vapid, and all young guys being dumb cum-dumpsters, bitches please! First off, way to generalize. And seeing as we’re dragging anecdotes into this, well, I may be 21 with a 28-inch waist, but I am neither vapid nor a slut (anymore), and neither are my gay friends. Yes, youth is fleeing, but if it is still in someone (ie. my) clutches, then why hate? Seems to me that you’re deeply insecure about your weight, and mey even be a little scared of getting dropped for someone with a better body.
Second, if we’re such useless fetuses, then why are there so many gross chicken-hawks employing the law of large numbers to score some fresh meat? And why is Eurocream so insanely popular? Guess what, the vast majority of us young’uns don’t have the disposable income to be buying overpriced (and terribly dubbed) porn. It’s you middle-aged guys that are slavering all over this shit, not us!
Seriously, this blatant and apparently acceptable ageism is offensive, especially considering it’s the middle-aged guys that strip us young guys with their eyes when in a bar or just walking down the street. And then you come home and hate?! Ugh. Jealousy is no-one’s colour.
Yet another Michael
You assume too much: chicken is like pussy to me. I want neither. Don’t presume that because you’re 21, every guy wants you. And a 28 inch waist is WAY less appealing to me than Vanhattan’s 35 inch waist. And your topic-shift into overpriced porn? I don’t even know what that was about. Sugar daddy laments or something…
“I am neither vapid…”
Yes, perhaps narcissistic would be more apropos:
“…it’s the middle-aged guys that strip us young guys with their eyes when in a bar or just walking down the street. And then you come home and hate?! Ugh. Jealousy is no-one’s colour.”
Again, don’t be so vain as to presume everyone wants you.
David About Gay Media
Waduya mean Dan doesn’t have a vagina? A lesbian couple told me lots of gay women LOVE male gay porn. I was stunned. Just reporting here, so Dan may be more onto something than you think.
hardmannyc
“However, IMHO, I still look FAR better than Dan and most of the skinny minnies who are obsessed with nothing but the gym, their carb intake and their next botox treatments and one night stand.”
If you are fat, you are not attractive. It’s that simple. And if you’re getting picked up by guys, I have to wonder what THEY look like.
Marty
HARDMANNYC sez “If you are fat, you are not attractive. It’s that simple.”
Whatta crock! As if your standards are the standards for the entire world! You may be “hard” but it appears to be for “hard-headed” and not much else! Your preferences certainly seem cemented, nothing wrong with that, but to condemn anyone who does not meet your individual standards as unsuitable for the world in general is just ridiculous. Fit or fat, does not matter, your hatefulness makes it so it does not matter how “hard” your body may be.
GranDiva
I look at it this way.
If the situation, as described by the letter-writer, is the core fact, then it’s a little bit akin to the woman who decides that once she’s married she’s not obliged to do all the “nasty” things in bed that she did before she snagged the guy.
We all present the most appealing, most attractive versions of ourselves in the interest of getting the attention of potential mates, right? I mean, there’s a reason that male peacocks have those tail feathers, right?
Deciding that once we catch someone that we’re not obliged in some way to honor the false advertising promises is a function of superficiality on some level, yes, but wasn’t there some mutual engagment in the initial deception from the outset?
FarOuter
Agree with Dan. I don’t understand much of this discussion. LOVE and SEX are two different things, although it’s very nice when they go together. In the straight world, there are lots of married and unmarried couples who love each other but don’t have sex with each other. On MSNBC, there was an article about a gay man who married a woman because he loved her, but would not have sex with her. If two people truly love each, they can negotiate to have sex outside the couplehood, if they are no longer physically attracted to each other. NOTHING is permanent. It is ALWAYS work to maintain a relationship.
Scott
Both parties in a committed relationship have a duty to each other. Mr. Savage is very far off in his advice. If you love him you’ll find a way to make it work/get help if there’s a problem. Everyone changes as they age. No one is the same person they were several years ago. I can’t imagine how he defines LTR at age 22. I suspect there’s another issue here and weight is a convenient excuse. Maybe the boyfriend gained weight because of the depression caused by Mr. 22 LTR.
Dudous Migratorious
I must be in the wrong place. So catty and superficial sounding in here on this subject. Let’s send these comments to Cosmo or some other crappy publication and show those dimwit chicks that the guys are just as pathetic as they are.
michael
I would hardly call Dan Savage “wise”. He is rather akin to an anorexic woman or a binge eating woman in that he has a distorted image of himself. He is actually rather homely. So maybe his criticism and snide remarks about fat people is just his own self loathing turned outward. Its pretty common actually. Why is it so difficult to find gay people who are wise, intelligent and classy? Is being tacky and pissy (the comment about the fatosphere is immature, tasteless and shows that there really is not a lot of substance to the man) the trait gay men have to wear on there sleeve? I am tired of hearing about how so many gay men are this way because their self esteem is low. Get over it. Get some psychological help. We all have the power to raise our self esteem.
Dans advice was superficial and is suitable for 14 year olds deciding if they should keep going steady with the girl or boy that sits next to them in history class, not for adult consumption.
Christian
Gaining weight is complicated and based on a combination of genetics and lifestyle. As someone who has gained 40 lbs since my boyfriend and I met, I find the entire premise very insulting. I fret and worry constantly about my weight. I just started an exercise class to lower my stress and, hopefully, my weight. But, after 7 years together, I don’t expect to be kicked to the curb because I’ve had a very stressful couple of years and was too busy to properly take care of myself.
The original writer to Dan is a vapid fool. I just hope he does talk to his boyfriend, so the boyfriend can get the hell out of the relationship so he’s not being judged every day.
Strepsi
@Christian:
I dunno Christian — you’ve been together 7 years, my hubby and I have 15 years (and 30 pounds up and down again…) We’re growing old together as husbands… But this kid is only 22!
Gaining weight is almost never to do with genetics, and 95% to do with lifestyle.
The kid should talk to his BF, who may have other complicated reasons, from bad food habits, to the aforementioned letting himself go now he has landed someone, to laziness now he’s nesting, to subconsciously turning the BF off to sabotage the relaitonship…
Or it could be as simple as my reason… Barbeque Chips.
đ
Michael W.
@Christian: Good luck on losing the weight, Christian. I agree with the previous poster that it’s much more to do with lifestyle than genetics but I gather you recognize that since you already mentioned lifestyle and identified stress as a factor.
Cole
Very sad. People have to learn what love is. If you are going to toss someone to the curb because a physical attribute changes it doesn’t sound like love was there in the first place. What if you partner was disfigured in a car accident? a burn victim? had cancer ravage their body. do you get up and leave them? dan’s shallow advice and many of the comments on here are what makes me embarrassed at times to be a gay man. our values are skewed.
FYI, i’m 32, 31″ waist, 6′ and 181 lbs and have no problem turning heads. if I loved a man i would take him for everything he is and that he will become. my parents have been married 44 years and many pounds, wrinkles and hair loss later they are still together.
logan767
Fact of the matter is that we can dump whoever we want to dump, whenever we want to dump them. But when prince charming doesn’t come on his white horse, don’t cry to me, boys! If you want a relationship, you have to work with and through the “imperfections”.
Of course that’s not to say this relationship should last. I have no idea – I dont know either of these guys -and neither does Dan.
The thing that continues to AMAZE me about Dan Savage is that he got his name through being this “open-minded” sex advice columnist. Only it turns out he’s only open-minded about what gets him off. Otherwise, he’s telling everyone to “DTMF” – with a tone of judgment that reflects the larger gay culture and is part of the reason so many gay guys are whining about the fact that there’s “nobody out there” and that they’re all alone.
Ed
It’s a mistake to consider the weight an issue. More than likely it’s the writer’s psych issues about himself and his relationship to attraction. Because attraction is never just physical.
If it is really just the weight that is the problem, than he has options.
Besides, saying that gaining weight is taking your partner for granted is a bold and somewhat irresponsible statement.
I like Dan Savage but this reply is just silly and high school.