After Andrea Jones had gender reassignment surgery and was recognized as female by the Social Security office, she went into a Tennessee DMV office to change the gender on her driver’s license—but they denied her request.
So she walked out into the parking lot, removed her shirt and the police arrested her for indecent exposure, though it’s completely legal for men to go around shirtless.
Even the police report refers to Jones as a man, something she has responded to thusly: “If I was a male, I had the right to, when I stepped out the door, take off my shirt. It’s not right for the state to ask me to be both male and female. A choice needs to be made. They cannot hold me to both standards.”
She’s right. In the meanwhile she’s a female to the Social Security Administration, a male to the Department of Motor Vehicles and somewhere in between to the police.
How about we take this to the next level?
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the crustybastard
If you’re not having sex with Person X, why would you give half a crap what gender Person X claims? Seriously, how does it affect you in any way?
Goddam busybodies.
ewe
Exactly where is that vanilla “freaky” Dan Savage when you need her?
Por Supuesto
brava!
beergoggles
Haha that is awesome. Good for her!
Justin in Oaklawn, Dallas, Texas
Bwaaaa-haaaa-haaaaa-haaaaaaa!!!!! That’s the BEST thing I’ve read in a LONG time! Finally someone in Tennessee showed evidence of a brain cell!
Ian
Good for her. I wouldn’t advise her to continue using the “take of the shirt in public” maneuver,” but can’t blame her for getting frustrated and angry. I’ve represented transgender clients and honor their courage and strength.
Last Run
@Ian: Courage? Most men who get a sex change are too cowardly to stand up for themselves. They only feel comfortable doing it as a woman, which is both sexist and passive-aggressive. Then you have these not-quite-transsexuals (they haven’t done anything to become women) referring to gay men as she and her, which is deeply homophobic.
Ian
@Last Run: Thank you for making my point.
Last Run
Thank YOU for making mine, you passive-aggressive whiner.
Mike in Asheville
@Last Run: Who the fuck are you to judge the legitimacy of the self-gender identity of anyone, gay, straight or transgendered? What an asshole, you expect the straight community to respect your right to suck cock, but then deem the transgendered as cowards and homophobes? Really? Asshole.
Dallas David
Cool. I hope the Tennessee bureaucracy smartens up and makes the change.
On a side issue — how can they allow men to be in public without shirts, and not allow women to do the same? It’s like muslims in Saudi Arabia making women wear burkas in public, but not men.
Last Run
@Mike in Asheville: I didn’t judge their legitimacy. I described what I think is the fact that mtf transsexuals are sexist (against women, of course) and passive-aggressive. I have known other transsexuals who have reached the same conclusions. In any case, I AM a transsexual, you doofus. I know all the best things and the worst things about transsexuality which non-transsexuals cannot know. Gay people aren’t the only ones who read this site.
Paul F
@Dallas David:That’s because mens’ titties aren’t used to SELL everything under the sun. You let women walk around topless, you remove the selling power from the mere glimpse of cleavage in advertising. If you’re going to complain about clothing rules driven by religion, let me talk to you about nudism…. 🙂
blatherer
So-called transexuals today cannot even be bothered to have sex-change operations. They have a boob job and some hormone injections and call it a day.
missanthrope
@Last Run:
Last Run = All knowing Queen of transsexuals.
You’re too funny for words with your sweeping generalizations.
todd
I have to admit it…the girlz got balls.
Shane
@blatherer:
Seriously! Fucking phonies won’t shell out thousands of dollars for a painful surgery not covered by insurance. I mean come on, it’s not like the surgery isn’t totally perfected, and they might lose sensitivity. A REAL woman would take those risks so she could be excepted by strangers. And who cares if no surgery comes without the risk of dying. She’s not really a lady if she doesn’t have the right parts!
Anthony in Knoxville, TN
@Justin in Oaklawn, Dallas, Texas: We’re not all idiots in Tennessee, by the way.
jason
A woman’s breasts are part of her sexual/reproductive system. A man’s aren’t. Having different rules regarding what can be shown in public merely reflects this fact. It’s not discrminatory in an unfair sense.
In fact, women get far more freedom to show aspects of their sexual/reproductive system than men do. Just look at the revealing clothing that many women wear and compare it to the much more modest type of clothing that men wear. There’s definitely a double standard, one which women exploit in order to get preferential treatment.
As for Andrea Jones, he is still a man. His chromosomes are male. You can never change your chromosomes. Good luck to him if he’s happier conforming to the stereotypically female appearance.
Isa
What’s with all the transphobia, jerks? If she says she’s a woman, she’s a woman. But the article says she had SRS, so physically, she has a female body. Besides, chromosomes can be more complicated than just XX or XY, and gender is more nuanced than that. I say she did a really brave and smart thing to stand up for herself–one that is in no way sexist or weak. Risking jail in a men’s prison as a trans woman is not an easy choice.
Mike in Asheville
@Last Run: Well then an extra scoop of “shame on you” to you.
Just how the fuck do you justify stating: “I described what I think is the fact that mtf transsexuals are sexist (against women, of course) and passive-aggressive.”
You equate your biased self-serving “I think” as a FACT of that mtf are sexists against themselves? And you say they are passive-aggressive? How in the world did you pass the stringent and required psychoanalysis determinations before under going the gender altering surgery?
Irrespective, just as every gay and straight being, every transgendered being is unique and individual enjoying and enduring unique passions, desires, wants, and struggles. As a transgendered yourself, shame on you for inflicting your misogyny of all other trans.
At the least, I support every transgendered — whether in process, just questioning and those who have complete reassignment surgery — the respect that they be true to themselves and hope that they live a happy life.
silencedelta
I am not going to call ppl out but I am very insulted by some of the comments on this page as a trans mtf I would love to even begin my transition but because I have no insurance and am a college student it is almost impossible. I would love the surgery as much as I fear it and if you think that I am not a woman because I was once a man than I dare you to say it to my face so I can shove my 4 inch heel into your groin then we will see how much of a man you are. I thought as a comunity we were supposed to stick togeather but apperently not. Thanks to the woman that did this, more of us need to do similar things I more than likely will never have the curage so admire her. To the people that support thank you words can never express how it feels when people accept you. Everyone else F#@& you.
Zoe Brain
@Jason
PATIENTS:
A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis. — J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
You were saying about “male chromosomes”?
Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8 :
CONCLUSION: Donor-derived cells are capable of composing endometrium in recipients, even those of the opposite sex.
You were saying that chromosomes can’t be changed? Even though an originally XX woman ends up XY, even down to her ovaries, after a bone-marrow transplant?
Jason – all three of your statements were factually incorrect. Please do some research, hmm? It’s not what you don’t know that’s the problem, it’s what you “know” that’s just plain wrong, because you’ve only been taught the simplified child’s version of biology.
JayKay
Looks like Kelly Rutherford if someone worked her over with a tree full of ugly sticks.
Fitz
I find it disgusting and sad that someone would chose to live in Tennessee.
Jimmy Velvet
At first glance, I thought it was Ann Coulter…
Henry
To be fair to the fine, upstanding policemen who arrested him, he doesn’t even look like a woman. Their confusion is understandable.
Jacqui
@Mike in Asheville: You took the words right out of my mouth. Last Run is an idiot.
Last Run
@Mike in Asheville: No, I didn’t say that anything I think is a fact. I said clearly that I believe this to be a fact, which is not hard to understand. I don’t know what’s wrong with you, but it just isn’t normal to get so angry at people, and call them dumbasses and so on, when you see them. You act as though we’ve known each other for a long time and we have some kind of relationship that allows you to address me that way (even though it’s hard to imagine any situation where it would be acceptable to talk to someone like this). I’m not misogynistic, and I don’t know how you could have got that from my reply, which did, after all, condemn sexism. You probably have no understanding of women, and I’m certain you have no understanding of what drives men to want to BE women. This is all very hypothetical for you, and all you can say to transpeople is “rah rah, sis boom bah, TRANS.” I like to think I’m a more practical person than that, particularly given my insider point of view.
Lizzy
Okay, I’m starting to be more interested in the arguments on the comment section than the actual article.
Stephani
@blatherer:
Do you realize that someone transgendered people cannot afford sexual reassignment surgery? How about the fact that the surgery for FtMs is not practical for most because they cannot get a fully functioning penis?
How about someone’s gender identity has nothing to do with you? Some people choose not to get sexual reassignment surgery simply because they don’t want to have surgery and are comfortable enough with their bodies not to, but still identify as a gender different than their sex.
Lisa
I r=think what the dnv and the police did was wrong she is a women just becuz she wasnt born as a women domt mean it makes her any less of a women if her brain says she is a women and she feels like a women then she is in fact a women same with a male ik im a women not becuz i was born a women becuz i feel like one transgender is proven fact u can be born in the wrong body so why dont u people stop judging someone u dont kno or understand and get a damn life what she wants to do with her body is her business and no1 elses and the dnv has to change her sex to female and the police should forget about ehre personal feelings and reconize her for a women and not a man because its who she is.
Crysta
@Last Run: Idiot, we aren’t “men who want to be women” we ARE women. Its not our fault we got a body that happens to be a lemon (without a return/replacement policy)
Just the fact that you would dare to push those outdated and hypocritical beliefs makes me doubt your legitimacy as a “transwoman.” Maybe YOU are the one who wanted a womans body so badly that you decided to turn yourself into one…
Sorry, but I call bullshit on you Last Run.
Aurora
@Last Run
Stop disgracing trans people. Your obvious bias is part of your own misguided judgments about people. You seem to have very little insight, considering your background.
People are people first, and whatever else second.
Crysta
@Last Run: Idiot, we aren’t “men who want to be women” we ARE women. Its not our fault we got a body that happens to be a lemon (without a return/replacement policy)
Just the fact that you would dare to push those outdated and hypocritical beliefs makes me doubt your legitimacy as a “transwoman.” Maybe YOU are the one who wanted a woman’s body so badly that you decided to turn yourself into one…
Sorry, but I call bullshit on you Last Run.
@blatherer: No offense, but when was the last time you saved up, and shelled out a NEW FRICKIN CAR, to be accepted as yourself…
Trans folks already have issues GETTING a job, much less actually keeping one, and lastly one that actually pays DECENTLY. All of a sudden we have to pull 15 grand out of our asses, just to be judged to be who we know we are.
Its hard enough for just about ANYONE to save up that amount of liquid cash, much less someone who likely has problems just getting a job to begin with. All of this due to discrimination. (not to mention I take offense to the boob job insult, as the way you said it implies that we are likely whores as well)
illegitimateAngel
@Zoe Brain. Exactly what I was going to say! There are several chromosomal issues that can cause a person to have genetalia (penis, vagina, etc) that is incongruent with their chromosomes. People are so simple minded.
Samantha
@Zoe Brain:
where the “Like” Button for this
Kristina
Just change her gender and stop the controversy.
Jason
@Last Run: Please stop trying to institute a class system within the transgender community. Why does it matter if someone has or hasn’t had all the possible surgeries? Maybe they can’t afford it. Maybe they have medical reasons that impair their ability to go through with it. Why are you the one who gets to judge what is or is not superior? And why, pray tell, after undoubtedly experiencing so much of it yourself, would you ever want to do it to others?
Furthermore, how is it anything-phobic to accept someone for who they are? When did you become God, and gain the right to redefine others to suit your own opinions? Isn’t THAT the true essence of homophobia, transphobia, biphobia, and whatever other phobias you may want to discuss: someone on the outside looking in and trying to force other people to conform to their own standards and beliefs?
I’m a transman myself, and I’ve never met another transperson quite as awful as you. You are in no position to judge anyone other than yourself—even if you were a straight white guy, or a black lesbian woman, or a multi-racial pansexual genderfluid, you, like everyone else currently alive, would have no standing on which to judge anyone else.
Finally, let me simply add to the rest of the comments, and this is not specifically directed at Last Run: Congrats Andrea, on making your point. I don’t think that’s how I would’ve gone about it, but it definitely makes the point.
newcityspot
Wow, good for her! She is so right!!! Gonna make everyone look fucking stupid!
anon communist
@Aurora: Stop disgracing your mother’s squeaky clean cunt, fascist twat.
o
I think by “fascist,” anon communist is helpfully drawing our attention to the fact that there are no causes to disgrace. One person’s identity has nothing to do with the group identity. Only a fascist (a real one) would confuse them.
Last Run
@Crysta: Again, the insults are strange and uncalled for. You cannot call yourself a woman when you have a man’s body (I don’t mean this in the vulgar sense that a cismale might), and no amount of angry, aggressive behavior will make me accept the lie that you want to tell yourself. If you were, in fact, a woman, you wouldn’t need to transition. Why bother? You’re already a woman. Your male body is not, either, a lemon: it’s perfectly functioning and very erotic, if you’re willing to explore it. It would indeed be rare to find a religious transsexual, so I take it for granted that you have discarded your religious dogmas, but not all sorts of dogmas, or you would be able to see how the stories that internet transsexuals tell themselves are misleading. Frequently one gets the sense that the narrative must be advanced at all costs, as I did when I read your startling assertion that I’m not a transsexual just because I’ve grown to like my body and to figure out ways of living in it, instead of feeding a very young person’s fantasy about being a woman prior to doing any of the work of being one.
Glenda
This woman’s face is why I decided I was transitioning in my early teens or not at all.
Zoe Brain
@Last Run:
They don’t. Trans women. Don’t have completely male bodies. Not from birth. That’s what causes Transsexuality.
Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041
The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.
It’s a gross over-simplification to say “girl body parts in the head, body parts elsewhere”, but yes, that captures the essence of it. There are anatomical differences.
One of those is in the SPL, the Superior Parietal Lobule, which affects body map. Some trans women – with female gender identities due to feminised lymbic nuclei – also have a feminised SPL, so get intense discomfort at an instinctive level from having male genital anatomy. But not all do. The hormonal glitch in the womb causes varied effects, differing between individuals. Some have genes making them susceptible to even minor glitches, while others would be unchanged by them.
Er…. you’re obviously talking from complete ignorance. No-one who knew even the first thing about transsexuality could believe that, too much evidence.
Whoever diagnosed you as trans is dangerously ignorant, for goodness’ sake get a second opinion.
Henry
@Zoe Brain: This sort of clinical point of view about “getting a diagnosis” is what I was referring to when I said trannies are too European. There is more to life than the sterile apparatus (which knows all and tells all).
Whitney
@Last Run:
You sound like a post-op elitist to me.
EmmaMTF
Will y’all just stop feeding the troll? Last Run is obviously just fucking with you, so just let him/her wallow in his/her chinsweat and move on. It doesn’t make any sense to argue with the internet.
Mike in Asheville
@Crysta: Thank you! Me being a guy who is strictly into other guys, I know I do not, and simply cannot, understand the complexities associated with gender identity. But I do fully understand and take to heart that every single human has their own unique wants, needs and desires, and that those wants, needs and desires are every bit as legitimate as anyone else’s [provided per consenting adults].
Why is it so hard for nay-sayers to understand that sexuality and gender identity is not all that different from most people are right-handed, 10% left-handed, fewer are partially ambidextrous (me), and even fewer fully ambidextrous; many have 20/20 vision and others are legally blind; most hear well but some are deaf while others have perfect pitch.
There are some 7 billion people on this planet — fortunately, each of us is unique. When it comes to sexual and gender identity, there are always going to be those who are and remain fully straight, some gay and lesbian, some bisexual, some women born in men’s bodies, some men born as women, and a few both. Each has the right to be happy and enjoy their lives their way. What possible business is it of anyone to pass judgment on another’s life?
Shannon1981
This is outrageous. Now, it is TN, so not surprising, but, if the Social Security office says she is a woman, she’s a woman. Do they not have to comply with that, per federal law? I suggest she call Lambda Legal and the ACLU.
Shannon1981
@Mike in Asheville: What an awesome comment. I will never understand why, out of all the unique traits one can be born with, sexual orientation and gender identity are seen to be abnormal. I feel for this lady. I really do. Its frustrating to have other people try to tell you what you are, when YOU AND YOU ALONE have the right to make that identification.
Roxxy
@Last Run:
What are you a trans guy or something? Or just anther self loathing mtf who criticizes others?
Henry
@Whitney: “Post-op elitist”? Yes, Whitey, internet lexicons is almost as controlling as the official apparatus for people like you – who can’t do any thinking. Gay people weren’t really people until the APA and other psychological organizations recognized their humanity (and, more importantly, their sanity). Thanks to the Freudian curse, which is really still just the Christian curse, of identifying the wrong people as defective, and of identifying illness as the sign of defection, we have to spend time fighting battles that should never have been fought, and defer to a referee who has no qualifications, only a “state license.”
Shannon1981
@Last Run: What are you on about? Seriously, it is well documented that anyone with GID should transition for their own health and well being. Since you know better than the people who have spent their careers studying this, what, exactly, do you suggest?
Last Run
@Shannon1981: Hi there, Shannon. In my post, when I said I learned to like my body, I was talking about myself. You may have noticed that I didn’t encourage other transpeople to do the same thing I did. I have no knowledge about what the well documented option is – I think the experts know very little about any of this. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
BOOBORELLA
@silencedelta:
I HAVE NOTICED THAT ON THIS WEBSITE THERE IS A LOT OF BELOW AVERAGE Intelligence ppl,inconsiderate and ignorant(oh,the irony),so don’t take them seriously
if a person says she is a woman in a mans body,then she IS a woman in a mans body,what’s there not to understand.
geeez
R.A.
Actually, that’s a metaphor.
No one is really “in” their body.
rgl
@jason: the fact that womens’ clothing is generally more revealing and that women are expected to dress in revealing clothing is not actually a ‘freedom’, and breasts are not part of a ‘sexual system’, and women are not asked to cover their breasts because they are part of the reproductive system. these things you’re claiming (i guess to tell us that men are the real victims here) are actually part of the same problem- because of sexism, women’s bodies are sexualized and considered indecent and shameful, and as a result there are LAWS that govern what parts of their bodies they can show in public.
Shannon1981
@Last Run: I am glad you learned to like your body. Many aren’t so lucky. I am in the middle. I am ok with the parts down south, but HATE my breasts, and generally bind and do many things to appear more androgynous. I guess some of us simply aren’t so lucky.
And I don’t identify trans, but genderqueer.
Lemon Law Online Auto
Quality posts is the key to invite the people to pay a quick visit the web page, that?s what this web page is providing.
Xian Wei
Let’s start by saying that Tennessee is backwards in a lot of ways re treating trans* folks. They won’t change the gender marker on a birth certificate, for example, full-stop. And there is no explicit data on their website on how one would modify the marker on the DL/ID.
But please – stop insulting women, stop shaming women, and stop decrying Ms Jones’ protest. Because, well, it’s a great way to force the issue onto the legal system. If the courts rule that she’s female, and she is convicted of a crime that only women theoretically could be convicted of (and it is most likely a misdemenor, but keep in mind I’m not a lawyer), then she can go right back the the Department of Safety with her court order and say, “Yo. Courts say I’m female. Change the marker.”. If they don’t.. she sets a great precedent and may help mobilize more folks like us into action.
And please – don’t say someone’s not trans* enough. Humanity has nearly infinite variation as it is. And along the spectrum of gender, there’s plenty of room for everyone to find their happy niche. World’s hard enough as it is without people trying to police gender.
PhyllisMs
@blatherer: @Blatherer…Those are called “Transgender”. Transsexuals do go to great efforts to have Gender Reassignment Surgery. Transgender folks want all to be lumped into one category. I don’t know why since you can’t lump all of any group of peoples into one category. Transgenders like to keep their penises and transsexuals like to get rid of theirs. Transsexuals also do not consider themselves as under the “Transgender” umbrella along with cross dresser, fetishists, transvestites, gender queer, androgenic, etc., etc., etc. Transsexuals are female and strive to conform most all of their lives in every way, unlike those who claim a transgender status, who love their penises to remain on their body.
PhyllisMs
@silencedelta: Try to act like a lady, it’s more fitting than talking like an aggressive male.
PhyllisMs
@Zoe Brain: Thank you. I have been very religious, some would say, (but I am more spiritual than religious), from the time I returned home from war in the Marines until this day. That was over 40 years ago, and to this day, haven’t changed my spiritual understanding one bit. This person, “Last Run” needs help.
MMJJoe81
I commend Ms. Jones for courage and bravery. Yet I am disgusted by the hate that has filled these comments.
Sister Unity
@blatherer: Transsexualism is NOT dependent on your physique. It is always about who you are inside. The varying degrees of surgical transformation of the body do NOT bear on your gender identity. A 5 year old trans girl (putting up with a “boy’s” body) is no less a girl than a 50 year old transwoman who had her surgery, and no less than a 25 year old trans woman who has breasts, no beard and a penis for any of 100 reasons having to do with budget, family pressures, health etc.
Sister Unity
@jason: while your feminism is wonderful, I”m afraid you exhibit anti-trans-bigoted ideology. Transgenderism is not about chromosomes… that’s the whole part where the identity and psyche does not match the biology, remember?
Sister Unity
@Henry: Here, let me toss you a billy goat under your bridge.
Sister Unity
@Last Run: But this is the problem. “men who want to BE women”… you silly person, they ARE women. They have been women since birth! Their difficulty is the mismatched biology. Remember that part from when you were there yourself? Remember how you were always a woman, not a man who wanted to be one? Cause you are transgendered, like you said, right?
Further, being angry is a very, very normal human emotion. It is often an opportunity to check how one might have been partly responsible for generating someone’s anger.
code9999
@Fitz: You made my day
code9999
@JayKay: You made my day