You can beat your chest all you want. It sure sounds tough, but you’re not going to drive anyone out of here. First of all you will never have the power, and second of all you’d have a good number of queers (like me) opposing you. And I am sorry to day right behind us would be the rest of the general public who would be much less sympathetic – and although their cops turn a blind eye to homophobia I expect they would be right there ready to deal with you trying to torch the White House with your pocket lighter.

Am I happy about that? No, of course not. But if you want to really change things the first thing you need to do is get your feet on the ground and realize what resources you have and what you can actually DO – not just talk about.

The only thing I read in your and Phoenix’s post that made good sense was street partols. Getting the community organized in that way is essential. And no – they don’t need to be armed to the fucking teeth. They need to be COOL and professional.

A bit of an aside – I was in Mexico briefly after the big earthquake (86?). Friends there told that the government pocketed a lot of the aid money and did nothing to help the people.
People in many areas started organizing themselves – setting up sanitation, security, water supply. Only when that happened did the government feel threatened because they were becoming irrelevant – and stepped in.

Now so long as the community didn’t STOP organizing themselves once the government took over again, this is a good story. What do you think the reaction would have been if they started throwing molotov cocktails at City Hall? Able-bodied people can run and hide, but what would have happened to their old people? their children? Their businesses?

You can call me a quisling if you want; I really don’t give a shit. I know I have no sympathy for those discriminatory attitudes either. The difference is that I know nothing will change for the better unless sooner or later some of those people learn their behaviour is unacceptable.

We will fight them in the churches.
We will fight them in the schools.
We will fight them in the streets.

We will deal with them the way the military deals with Al-Qaeda.

I want gay vigilante groups and gay paramilitary forces armed to the teeth patrolling every gay neighborhood and every gay bar in the country, protecting innocent gays against the breeders who are looking for us to bash us. We will make The Black Panthers look like a tea party. The “police” won’t protect us, so it is up to us.

Every word that the KKKristian churches spout against gays gives us a casus belli against them.

These “people” are terrorists; we’re just fighting another battle in the War on Terror.

Prop H8 was the Gay 9/11. An act of war against gay families and gay married couples. The only acceptable response is force.

Gays bash back! Fight fire with fire and hate with hate. Drive the ChristiaNazis out of the country the way the filthy Puritans were rightfully driven out of England.

Not everything in life is black and white.

Fuck that noise, Bish! It’s No More Mr Nice Gay from now on out! It’s time for Malcolm X, not Martin Luther King. We need Winston Churchill, not Neville “Make Piece” Chamberlain. It’s time for the LGBT to start bashing back! Well armed fags patrolling the streets would cut down on gay bashings more than any number of candle light vigils. What you Homophobe Apologists don’t understand is no matter how much you “put yourself in their shoes” and “show compassion” to the bigots, they’re never going to show you the same consideration. It seems some of you will just keep apologizing for bigots and their hate even as they are hustling you down to the train station and into the cattle car and freighting your queer ass to the concentration camps. You’d apologize all the way into the ovens and guess what? You’d never be seen as human to them.

Christer attacks on our basic rights, abetted by gutless pandering politicians like Obama and McCain regularly result in a spike in violence. The latest stats are for 2007, the year liberal Dems ditched the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes bill after it passed both Houses of Congress to pander to bigots. They show the beginning of the current spike.

“But a figurative gun doesn’t count? It’s a documented fact that anti-LGBT hate crimes spike after anti-LGBT legislation is passed.”

This makes me recall a story from this morning’s San Jose Mercury News. Basically, Santa Clara County has found that anti-gay hate crimes have jumped from 15% of hate crimes in 2007 to more than 56% in 2008 (3 of 20 in 2007 -> 14 of 25 in 2008). The people they quote largely attribute this to the increased visibility of LGBTs in the news thanks to prop 8. I’d like to see if this is holds statewide and when these crimes were committed (i.e. around/after election time).

Sometimes if I have to write something that requires time and editing I just do it in a text program first.

Anyway, I look forward to to reading what you have to say. I disagree with much of your position on this issue, but I do realize we are part of the same struggle, so I don’t deny that your contribution is valid and important.

I’d like to hear how you would put your views into practice.

I must say though, talk of weapons and killing from some posters does nothing to move toward a solution, in my opinion. I have been on the business end of a gun on one occasion too and threatened with violence, so I recognize there are circumstances when one may be forced to defend ones self, but lets not invoke that kind of mindless reaction as a show of how dedicated we are. The less we have to go to that place the better; as I said, preparing for war and nothing else is just makes us part of the problem.

At any rate what’s the point of forgiving bigots. They’ll just pile into their buses again and drive around looking for GLBT folks to run over. We’d be far better off laying in and using a supply of spike strips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....8;index=11

The proper response is not to forgive but to convince them that what their vote really did was to unleash a full scale permanent campaign for GLBT civil rights and same sex marriage that will affect them until we get equality. Boycotts, demonstrations and accusations of bigotry are the order of the day.

An important question is why so many bigots came out to vote. First it was because of Yes on 8′s skillful use of Obama’s bigoted statement “gawd’s in the mix”. Enabled and emboldened by Obama’s contention that the sky pixies wanted them to vote their bigotry; mormons, catholics, and Warrens southern baptists came out from under their rocks and punched our lights out. This does nothing to excuse the bumbling idiots in the Democrat front group “No on 8” who botched everything they touched.

The vote would have been very different if it had included massive outreach to the majority of Californians, who are not Euroamericans combined with intense picketing at cult centers, businesses and politicians who supported Prop 8.

This is a “culture war,” and we can’t win if we “tolerate” the other side, because that means those on that side get to think what they think without feeling like they’re slapping our side in the face, and that is not a recipe for victory in this case.

I never said we deserve discrimination, I never said tolerate hate, I never said don’t be angry, I never said don’t fight…

@Angelo Ventura:

This…

@strumpetwindsock:

I don’t think anyone here is talking about capitulation, but the fact is no battle for social change was ever won without teaching people that their attitudes are unacceptable. Even after a real war, sooner or later you DO have to sit down and talk with the enemy.

This, a thousand times this.

Y’all can keep accusing me of wanting to capitulate and so on and so forth, but it won’t make it true.

Queerty, you need to try to do something about this shit, because it’s not the first time it’s happened to me, and I’m sure it happens to others as well. That’s an hour of my life that I will never get back. It would have been well-spent if my work hadn’t disappeared on me.

Did you read my post? I can appreciate (and I share) your anger but what actual strategies and tactics would you propose?

I absolutely agree with challenging attacks against us, but if you shut the door on trying to change some of those attitudes there is no way we can win. Likewise if you simply attack everyone whom you don’t like the look of you will turn more people against us. We do not and never will have the numbers to win by force. If your siege-war strategy has any chance of success you need to tell us how you would implement it in the real world, because frankly I think it is a non-starter.

Frankly I think the only place we’re really going to win some of these battles is in the courts, but sooner or later you still have to deal with government and the general public.

I don’t think anyone here is talking about capitulation, but the fact is no battle for social change was ever won without teaching people that their attitudes are unacceptable. Even after a real war, sooner or later you DO have to sit down and talk with the enemy.

Fortunately there are many of us who are willing to do that challenging work, even if some are not.

I really, really don’t think it does.

“If someone’s literally pointing a gun at your head, of course you don’t have to treat them like good people.”

But a figurative gun doesn’t count? It’s a documented fact that anti-LGBT hate crimes spike after anti-LGBT legislation is passed. Directly or indirectly, these troglodytes have blood on their hands.

“Respect is not weakness.”

Depends on how far you’re willing to take it, I suppose. If you’re so “respectful” that you’d rather kiss ass than make waves, then it is, indeed, weakness.

“Well, I think a substantial chunk of them are not evil based on my experience… in California. And I have lived in many different parts of California.”

And I’m so happy for you. You think they’re beautiful, wonderful, good people, and you’re entitled to believe that. From what I’ve seen of the hate movement, they’re all the same at the core: rotten and diseased. Some of them just wrap it up prettier.

“And calling me “dear” is lovely. Maybe if I’d chosen a male-sounding handle I’d be getting more respect here.”

Don’t even try to get huffy about that. Most people get a “dear” from me at some point. It’s part of my vocabulary. If you want to take it as disrespectful, then you’re being overly sensitive. Dear.

“If you can show me where I said it was wrong to be angry at yes voters, this comment will be justified.”

You didn’t say it. You’ve merely implied it. If you ask me, you don’t sound particularly angry at all, wanting to capitulate and make nice and have tea parties with the enemy.

They were throwaway comments that I never intended to make into the main thrust of my argument.

… This is why I suggested we drop it.

Again, as I have stated many times, I do not advocate tolerating hate. If someone’s literally pointing a gun at your head, of course you don’t have to treat them like good people.

This is a power struggle, and showing weakness does nothing but convince people that you deserve what you get.

Respect is not weakness.

You think the vast majority of yes voters are evil and less than human based on your experience in an area where “it’s not unusual for homophobes to have fully-loaded gun racks in the backs of their Camaros.” Well, I think a substantial chunk of them are not evil based on my experience… in California. And I have lived in many different parts of California.

I am unable to rein in my disgust when talking to them face-to-face, you’re wrong. I’ve had theatrical training, dear.

That’s good, I suppose. And calling me “dear” is lovely. Maybe if I’d chosen a male-sounding handle I’d be getting more respect here.

think twice before telling someone they’re wrong to place their anger where it belongs: on those who inspired it in the first place.

Amazingly enough, I have not told anyone that. If you can show me where I said it was wrong to be angry at yes voters, this comment will be justified.

I live in a region where it’s not unusual for homophobes to have fully-loaded gun racks in the backs of their Camaros, for crying out loud. I’ve been threatened with violence more times than I could even recall. The only thing I have working for me is the fact that I’m a large and intimidating-looking man, and most people prefer to mouth off and run away before I can sink my teeth into them. I have stared down the barrel of the gun, Emma. I did not flinch, and I did not grovel. I laughed, I sneered, and I dared them, and no trigger was pulled. Not only am I alive to tell the tale, but I didn’t have to sacrifice my self-respect in the process.

That is why I believe all this talk about “respect” and “understanding” is hogwash. This is a power struggle, and showing weakness does nothing but convince people that you deserve what you get.

What do I think they should do to make amends? First and foremost, they need to speak out, publicly and loudly, not behind the veil of safe anonymity that the internet provides them. Second, if they donated money to help remove civil rights from my California brothers and sisters, they need to donate a higher amount to the pro-LGBT cause, whichever organization they choose, and they need to back up that donation with written proof. Third, they need to continue to demonstrate that attitude in the future, when this and other civil rights issues are sure to arise again. If they meet these criteria, then I am prepared and willing to grant them “human” status once again.

As far as the percentages you threw out there, I will say I think you severely undersell the enemy’s numbers, but I also admit that there are no hard, indisputable stats to back up either of our positions. I can only go by my own experiences with these humanoids, and in my own experience, it’s well above 90% of them who are simply hateful and evil creatures begging to be destroyed.

If I could afford to travel to California, you can bet your sweet bippy I’d be out there every day I could. I’m not afraid of these beasts, and I’m certainly not afraid to tell them exactly how wicked I believe their actions were. As it stands, like I said, I’m in Ohio, and I have plenty of work to do here.

Also, I suppose I should elaborate a little about my view of tactics/approach where these animals are concerned. I’ve been dealing with them all my life, and more so since I came out a decade ago. If you assume I am unable to rein in my disgust when talking to them face-to-face, you’re wrong. I’ve had theatrical training, dear. I know how to slap on a convincing smile and speak to these primitives in language they can understand. The luxury of places like Queerty, though, is that here I don’t have to put up a false front in order to be heard.

Evil is as evil does. What these creatures did was evil, even if a tiny percentage of them may not be. If I want to tell them they’re disgusting wastes of space from the safety of my own community, I’m entitled to that. I have always said, and I stand by it, that there is a time and place for pacifism and a time and place for blunt honesty. If I can’t tell the truth here in a GLBT-friendly space, where can I?

A handful of them aren’t evil. Is that enough of a compromise for you? Even if they were to repent enough to warrant the consideration of forgiveness, it in no way means I would ever embrace them as friends. It doesn’t even guarantee that I’d end up respecting them. In all honesty, once we get what we deserve in this war, once we win them over to our side long enough to achieve victory, I have no more use for them. Do whatever you believe will work, but think twice before telling someone they’re wrong to place their anger where it belongs: on those who inspired it in the first place.

Hey thanks, strumpetwindsock, this is a big part of what I’ve been trying to say.

Sorry if by agreeing with your comment I make it look bad by association with me. :/

I do understand your views (at least as far as you’ve stated) on reproduction and voting. And I still find them extremely heinous. That’s my opinion. Many would disagree and I get that, although it’s disappointing to me. But I think we can both agree that that’s not really the main point of this thread, so perhaps we could both let it go?

This comment is less straw-man-y than your previous ones, so I’m glad to respond to it.

I didn’t say “sorry” is good enough or that we should pretend these people did nothing wrong. They did do something wrong. I’ve said only that, although they’ve done something wrong, they’re not all evil and we should treat them with respect.

I don’t claim that the posts I quoted were any kind of proof necessary for my argument. I just posted them in response to Charles’s question about where people were saying they were sorry on the Internet. That’s something he brought up, not me, and so if you think it’s meaningless your beef is with him.

Until these people take steps to correct their hateful, un-American action, they’re still our enemies.

I don’t really think it’s helpful to say that, but what specifically do you want them to do?

I’ll even grant you that maybe there is a small sliver of a percentage of pro-h8 voters who may not be evil to the bone. But I refuse to believe that anything less than an overwhelming majority of pro-h8 voters acted only out of malice.

OK, so what we disagree on here is proportion. I can’t be sure what proportion of yes voters are truly hateful and unreachable. I’d guess it could be anywhere from maybe 40-75%. But since neither of us is going to be able to back up our perceptions about that with hard evidence, my main point is “not all.”

If you’re so convinced that these “apologetic h8ers” are sincere in their sudden sentiments, then you should realize they’d take no issue with having their feet held to the fire.

If you want to go to the people who have changed their minds and tell them how badly they fucked up and how they need to do something to help our cause, go ahead. I’m fine with that (although I still think this can be done respectfully). They will probably agree with you and completely understand your anger.

But I believe that there are people who voted yes, who do not now regret their votes, BUT who can still be reached. If they don’t realize yet how badly they’ve fucked up, and you go to them and tell them that angrily and disrespectfully, that’s not going to change their minds. But if you go and respectfully explain it to them, explain why the yes campaign’s claims were lies, explain on a personal level who you are and why Prop 8 has hurt you, they may change their minds and I have seen this happen. What they do after that will vary but it’s not really germane to my main point, which is that respectful education is the most effective way to change people’s minds.

Again, I haven’t argued anything about how we shouldn’t expect repentance or how we should offer “blanket forgiveness” or anything like that. That’s another issue. My point is that if we want to change people’s minds (which I think we should regardless of whether we have to to protect our rights, as a matter of improving our society) we should treat them with respect, not yell at them and call them evil.

I may have proven my own point in this thread. When I attacked your views on voting and reproduction as fascist, you probably saw that as more or less akin to yelling at you and calling you evil. Well… it wasn’t very convincing, was it?

You can have all the theoretical discussions and demolish people’s arguments with logic all you want, but if it doesn’t work in the real world it is nothing but mental masturbation.

I’ve read a lot of comments about troglodytes and Nazis, what restrictions should be put on them, and how we should treat them with the same intolerance they treat us, but I have yet to read one comment in this vein that suggest how to apply this philosophy here and now to change things to our advantage.

Of course I agree that some people should not have kids; what does that have to do with the issue? What matters is that these people DO have the right to vote, and we will never have the power to change that (nor should we, in my opinion).

Standing up to them when they attack us? Yes, I am all for that. But for those who argue for war? Sorry to disappoint, but right or wrong, we will lose (just like the pedestrian who has the right of way, but winds up dead).
They will always outnumber us, and they are not going away, and to ignore that fact – to simply demonize the lot of them and refuse to engage constructively – will do nothing at all.

I’m not going to keep defending my “parental licensing” comment because:

1. I don’t think it needs defending if you think about it logically and in context.

2. People like yourself want to see something more heinous than I have recommended, and I’ve no interest in feeding your self-righteous umbrage.

and 3. You haven’t offered anything remotely resembling a dispassionate and thoughtful counter-argument.

As far as the main issue here goes, go ahead and write me off if I say “sorry” isn’t good enough. If someone runs me over with their car and shatters both of my femurs, I’m not going to let them off the hook just because they apologize. There must be restitution, otherwise the apology is little more than hot air. Until these people take steps to correct their hateful, un-American action, they’re still our enemies.

Furthermore, if they don’t take steps to rectify their heinous, thoughtless action, who’s to say they’re actually sorry anyway? False apologies are not difficult to give, especially in such an impersonal setting as the internet. An apology is not an attempt to right a wrong; it’s an attempt to assuage one’s own guilt. The proof is still in the pudding, and at this moment they’ve still left me hungry.

You can get your Pollyanna on ’til the cows come home. I’ll even grant you that maybe there is a small sliver of a percentage of pro-h8 voters who may not be evil to the bone. But I refuse to believe that anything less than an overwhelming majority of pro-h8 voters acted only out of malice. If people are truly ashamed of their votes, they will speak out and make their voices heard. I suspect most of them are simply too chickenshit to manage it. They’ll type out a halfhearted apology and post it online somewhere, nice and anonymous, and that’ll be the end of it.

If you’re so convinced that these “apologetic h8ers” are sincere in their sudden sentiments, then you should realize they’d take no issue with having their feet held to the fire. They wounded millions of people with their vote, after all, and put many marriages in jeopardy at the same time. That’s something that a retarded hamster could recognize. If they’re genuinely sorry for the hatred they helped codify in legal terms, then they are ready to accept their share of the blame and anger, and understand that there will be a price to be paid if they are to be forgiven.

As I have already stated, until that price is paid, I will not forgive. I think accepting them with open arms without a single show of repentance from them besides a lukewarm apology posted anonymously online somewhere is exactly what some of them may want. It saves them the trouble of undoing what they did. That is why it is foolish to offer blanket forgiveness without receiving any true reparations first. It encourages them to apologize and do nothing, effectively leaving us in the same place we’ve been these last few months.

Again, read above, and you will note that I absolutely believe that this should not be an issue decided by a popular vote. I suppose, somehow, the 13th and 14th amendments are not meant to protect us, and our courts and legislators in California have not interceded as of yet to prevent this issue from being decided by a simple majority. That means that those of us in California need to bring it to the Federal Supreme Court, or we need to go back to the ballot. IT IS Infurating, indeed! But if that is what we have to do, then some of us are going to have to canvas areas, such as those in Orange County and Riverside, and we are going to need to knock on doors and actually dialogue with the very people that Emma refers to. If that is our only recourse, then that is what we would or will have to do.

By binding marriage rights into a bundle with other civil rights, we may stand a better chance to change a few minds==I know, it is hard to believe that anyone so simple minded could shift, but they are, afterall, simple minded. Most important, we do not need to change a majority of Yes on H8ters, we just need to change 4 to 10 percent.

No, this does not change the fact that madness may prevail, and we may go back and forth in the voting booth for election cycles to come. This does not mean that I am not disgusted with just about all those who voted Yes on 8 (I make an exception for someone who may have inadvertantly checked the wrong box without knowing it). This does not mean that I am not infuriated. This just means that Emma has a point, if the courts do not step in, we may have to convert a small percentage of people, because there would be no other game in town–at least here in California, but that doesn’t mean that I won’t be choking back disgust as I speak to them.

It’s time to make them accountable for their heinous speech and actions.

How, specifically?

Please do not imply that I do not value the worth of queer people. I am queer and I love myself very much.

“I wondered whether you had a particular counterargument to mine, some idea for what we should be doing,”

In a word? Stop giving these people who would deny us of our basic rights a free pass. It’s time to make them accountable for their heinous speech and actions.

Nothing less will placate those of us who truly value our worth.

I don’t agree with tolerating hate.

We don’t differ on that.

We differ on whether every single last person who voted yes on 8 is hateful and evil.

I say that they are not, and that those who are not (as distinguished from those who are, of whom there are many!) should be treated with respect.

Tolerating hate is nothing more than giving it our tacit approval.

It has absolutely no social redeeming value whatsoever.

Nor, is there anything noble about it.

As has often been said of politics, we the the government we deserve.

Why should the argument for our civil-rights be any different?

I’m not assassinating your character. I didn’t say if you’re not helping you’re a bad person. I didn’t judge you on that in any way. But since you disagree with me, I wondered whether you had a particular counterargument to mine, some idea for what we should be doing, or whether it was just “You’re wrong.” I was actually curious (maybe foolishly).

“What are you doing to help?”

Oh, spare me, Emma. Getreal tried to pull that one me too.

Can’t win by logical argument?

Disqualify your opponent by character assassination and moral debasement.

Good try. But, you fail!

He didn’t ask what the people I know said, he asked where people were online.

They are not doing much, much like most gay people are not doing much. It’s hard to figure out what to do. Some want to give money but aren’t sure who to give it to yet. I never claimed respectfully challenging people would turn them into perfect activists. (Does shouting at them and calling them evil do that?)

No one close to me voted yes.

I’m glad you don’t believe in restricting voting rights. It’s totally fine to acknowledge the potential logic of the argument. I just couldn’t tell whether you were doing that or actually agreeing with it. That’s why I asked.

No, the fact that vernonvanderbilt is a eugenicist (which he admitted himself when he said “we’d be investing in the evolution of the human race”) doesn’t make him wrong about anything else. I didn’t say it did. That’s why I argued separately about his claims on the main topic. I stopped when he refused to stop putting words in my mouth. Arguing with someone who insists on doing that is rarely worth it.

You can disagree with a point without dismissing the message (or the messenger), you know… which, honestly, is what I thought was your whole point in the first place. Isn’t it?

In the end, by pure logic alone, Charles and vernonvanderbilt are winning the debate. Extrapolating the idea to “eugenics” is way out of line.

Have you asked these “specific people that [you] have seen change their minds (and whose minds [you] have changed” what they are doing to make it right?

Why do I get the strong feeling you are defending one or more people near and dear to your heart who voted Yes on 8? Is that why you are so adamantly defensive on behalf of the Yes on 8 people?

:( I was enjoying my conversation with you. Didn’t you say before, “I’d never say that anyone who doesn’t do his/homework shouldn’t be allowed to vote”? Have you changed your mind?