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IT GETS BITTER

What Does It Mean When Trans Activists Glitterbomb Dan Savage?

While filming his visit to the University of Oregon campus in Eugene yesterday evening for the MTV show Savage U, gay sex columnist and activist Dan Savage got glitterbombed by the “Dan Savage Welcoming Committee.”

The bomber said, “Dan Savage is a transphobe!” and added “Glitterbomb courtesy of the Dan Savage Welcoming Committee. He’s a racist and misogynist and a rape-apologist, too!” before rushing out the door.

This marks the first glitterbombing by trans activists as well as the first LGBT-on-LGBT glitterbombing. Is this problematic?

When recently asked about his own transphobia, Dan Savage told David Badash:

“How do you disprove a charge like you’re transphobic? I’m not afraid of trans people… I certainly have had a journey in the last 20 years—as have we all—on trans issues. When I started writing Savage Love 20 years ago, and you can yank quotes 15, 18 years ago and flat them up today and say, ‘You know, that’s transphobic,’ I’d probably agree with you. 15 years ago I didn’t know as much as I know now–nor did anybody.”

But The Bilerico Project’s Tobi Hill-Meyer notes:

It was 8 years ago that he titled a column “Bad Tranny” where he admonished a trans woman for coming out, it was only two years ago that he used the term “shemale” to refer to trans women. Just one year ago, several weeks in succession, first when a caller discusses watching trans porn, he admits that he knows he shouldn’t use either derogatory term, but declares that it’s okay to do so when referencing porn and proceeds to joyfully sling around the word “tranny” ten times in about two minutes and tosses in “shemale” a few times for good measure. Then repeats his previous assertion that men who are attracted to trans women cannot be considered completely straight. A week later he verbally thrashes a trans person who got upset at being mispronouned. Then finally, he reassures a man who likes women with strap-ons that he is 100% straight as long as the cock that he’s attracted to is attached to a woman – which apparently means he doesn’t consider trans women to be women, or else he would have said the same thing to the guy who watches trans porn.

Hill-Meyer concludes that Savage has never really taken responsibility for his transphobic statements and that Savage continues denying and dodging the accusation while issuing damaging statements like the ones above.

But this all raises a few interesting questions:

When you flip on the television news, you rarely see any politicians railing against trans people. Though politicians may oppose transgender inclusion in their social policies, few go out of their way to antagonize trans people on TV as publicly as they do LGBs. That’s possibly because trans people form a small social group that conservative politicians would rather ignore than engage at the risk of drawing attention to their own ignorance.

Instead television presents us with the likes of news anchorman Don Lemon flubbing transgender segments with inane questions about genitals and incorrect pronouns, whackadoodle right wingers complaining about how Chaz Bono’s cha-cha will turn children trans, or (at best) an earnest though slanted report on trans children.

As such, the trans community has few well-known targets to attack. By glitterbombing a well-known public figure by Dan Savage, they have ensured that both Savage’s many fans and the LGBT community at large will take note and start discussing Savage’s record as well as larger gender issues beyond his rhetoric.

But doesn’t it seem odd that trans folk would glitterbomb the creator of the “It Gets Better” project, a video project that has helped trans people share their stories and reach out to other trans youth possibly moreso than any digital vehicle in internet history? In many ways, Savage has helped push gay social issues, discriminatory identity politics and positive queer sexuality into the national spotlight by repeatedly pointing out the absurdity of bigoted anti-LGBT arguments as well as the honesty required to live as an ethical slut.

So while it’s obvious that the “Dan Savage Welcoming Committee” chose Dan as a high-profile target to raise larger issues of racism, misogyny, rape-apologists, and transphobia, by doing so they have also targeted arguably one of the most effective LGBT activists within our community. Good works don’t absolve one completely from blame, but certainly trans activists don’t disapprove of what good work Savage has done.

Savage has not released a statement yet about the glitterbombing but it will be interesting to see whether the event will change his discourse or the larger community discussion of the roles racism, misogyny, transphobia, and rape play in LGBT and American politics.

At the very least, it’ll make for an interesting episode of Savage U.

Image via soundfromwayout

By:           Daniel Villarreal
On:           Nov 2, 2011
Tagged: , , , , ,
  • 211 Comments
    • Kurtis
      Kurtis

      This is why the gay rights movement hasn’t been making any progress. People within the LGBTTIQQ2SA community attack each other rather than working together to take down the people that are real threats…

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kamuriie
      Kamuriie

      @Kurtis: Please tell me the use of that acronym was intentionally ironic. It doesn’t mean anything–there is no such community.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kurtis
      Kurtis

      @Kamuriie: I wasn’t trying to be ironic, but by the looks of things. There might as well just be the individual communities now. No one helps each other except for their own kind. Yay for political correctness breaking apart what once was a powerful force.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      “”But doesn’t it seem odd that trans folk would glitterbomb the creator of the “It Gets Better” project, a video project that has help trans people share their stories and reach out to other trans youth? “”
      ______________________________

      No, because the VERY DAY that marriage equality passed in New York, the head of the Transgender Rights movement used it as an excuse to come out and attack the gay community.

      She couldn’t even give the community one single day to celebrate, she had to come out, call the gay and lesbian community names, say that we shouldn’t be working on marriage etc…

      So no, it doesn’t surprise me.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kamikapse
      Kamikapse

      “He’s a racist and misogynist and a rape-apologist, too!”

      All of this is true.

      Savage is embarrassing and the fact that we cannot find better spokespeople than him scares me a little bit.

      He’s not any better than Perez Hilton.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      Dan Savage is not a great spokesman in the end for anyone because his past can be torn apart and his message will be meaningless. Sorry Dan Savage. You are not capable of reaching the people that need to be informed. The sex column that made Dan Savage who he is is exactly what will dismiss him out of hand. I, too, remember his column decades ago and he was purposely vile for shock value alone. He is such an outcast he could not possibly be an asset to the “movement.” I didn’t make up the rules. Listen up. One quote from his past sex column responses and any strides we make will be lost. People do not like his type of talk. He can easily be equated with a dog sniffing up someones ass. We need to stop propping Dan Savage up as the gay spokesman. I happen to agree with a lot of what he says but he is not the person that should carry the message. We have to care that we are heard and people will turn away by the droves on Dan Savage. The fact he can be so easily thought of with a physical sex act does not serve the greater purpose. People will simply turn off. Dan Savage needs to take a back seat. It’s all his own doing.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kurtis
      Kurtis

      @ewe: I’m not giving him credit for being a great person, I’ve met him face to face, but I also look at the project that he started and how many LGBT+ lives he probably saved with that project… does no one care about anyone else’s lives anymore?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sceth
      Sceth

      @Kurtis: The political correctness – bothering to spell out ‘LGBTIQA” (I’m ignoring the 2S) – is your doing, and it’s annoying and counterproductive. You can just sweep all us sex and gender deviants under the term ‘queer’ or ‘gay’ and avoid distracting people from active efforts.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JoeyB
      JoeyB

      Yes, it DOES GET BETTER… FOR DAN SAVAGE. Our kids keep dying and he’s raking in the bucks with a TV show now? Geez. Repulsive.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kurtis
      Kurtis

      @Sceth: So throw out political correctness as it distracts people from active efforts? Then lets give Dan Savage a round of applause for doing that and causing a whole lot of active efforts to come about :)

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Clamydia Jones
      Clamydia Jones

      Lawdy lawdy, duh wayz I seez it, trannies on duh hormones mornin, noons, ans nights ans dats why day so damn irratables.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kamuriie
      Kamuriie

      There are numerous problems with using even the somewhat common “LGBT” or “GLBT” as an acronym, much less “LGBTQ,” “LGBQH” or “LGBQTH” or any other variation.

      A distinction shouldn’t even be drawn between “lesbian” and “gay.” Gay does not mean male. And the “gay community” is largely hostle towards bisexuals–implying there’s a “community” shared by all is misleading at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst. The gay community is even less tolerant–even resentful at times–of the trans community for trying to latch on to, and at times, actually IMPEDE pushes for gay equality by insisting that gay equality be tied with trans equality.

      There is perhaps SOME acceptable word to use in referring to “everyone who isn’t straight,” but it certainly isn’t something arcane and untenable as “LGBTTIQQ2SA.” An acronym that people can’t immediately infer the meaning of has absolutely no purpose, and there certainly isn’t a “community”–by any definition of one–composed of them.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kamuriie
      Kamuriie

      Further, prominent members of those various groups you’re lumping into that *ridiculous* acronym don’t even identify with the “non-straight” community–especially transpeople–as sexuality has very little to do with trans issues. A transperson can be straight, bisexual, gay, asexual, etc. The more letters you tack on, the less meaningful the acronym becomes.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Atlas
      Atlas

      LGB and T should be two separate entities anyway. I’m completely supportive of trans people, but sexual orientation and gender identity have nothing to do with the other.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sceth
      Sceth

      If we are to get anything done we need to crucify the sensitive, “outraged” people. They don’t make any contributions and are constantly contriving “privilege” to blame implicit advantages people get instead of actually doing something about explicit negatives. One of the few popular people in media who calls out pity-partiers on their nonsense, Dan Savage is the best queer spokesperson for queers – funny, articulate, logical and irreverent – and these silly trans activists are insignificant and forgettable. Forgive their immaturity; they’re not going to amount to anything.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      Everybody keeps bringing up that he wrote a column titled “Bad Tranny” I figured everybody should read the column so they can see and decide their feelings on it.

      http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=13054

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • christopher di spirito
      christopher di spirito

      What the fuck does “LGBTTIQQ2SA” stand for?

      Sorry boys and girl but, I’ll stick with LGBT. Not one more letter.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tallskin2
      tallskin2

      Here in the UK Peter Tatchell has been accused by the rabid trotskyist left and muslims of being racist. Basically because Peter concentrates on attacking homophobia whereever he finds it.

      But ..

      Gawdinbennets. I mean really. There are so many f*cking loons to appease and bear in mind, that it’s impossible not to offend someone

      I used to be involved in gay politics and the amount of watching of one’s PCs and Qs that you had to do was like walking across a minefield. And in those days transgender issues hadn’t even appeared on the horizon.

      I like Dan Savage, think he does great work for gays in the USA. I hope he’s not put off and disheartened by a bunch of arseholes attacking him.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      It does seems weird that a sex columnist is the spokes person for the gay rights movement. He seems smart and is a nice guy, but, having seen him in interviews, he seems to not be equipped to answer questions that outside of life experience, and you would expect him to educate himself on issues if he’s going to speak for a movement. For example, its not just trans issues (which I know very little about myself), but also racial issues. He tried in a few interviews to answer questions, and he just doesn’t have the knowledge base to answer the questions. Whatever you think of Dan Choi, w hen he discusses gay rights as “civil rights” he knows how to speak about that. So, when someone asked him about race, he was able to link the too so that the audience, who may not be gay, came away with how the gay rights movement matters. This again doesn’t make Dan a bad guy. Just not a spokesperson for gay rights.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Justin
      Justin

      Well, I guess all those who are saying trans people should quit whining when someone discriminates against us should stop whining when someone discriminates against them. Yep, just quit your whining, gay people! It doesn’t matter that there are people out there who are perpetuating negative stereotypes, humorless and insulting “jokes”, misinformation, lies and rumors. You’re being too sensitive!

      “I don’t care about the gay community. It doesn’t affect me, so why should I have to care? I support them and everything, but they should just find a little corner and stay there, away from us “normal” people.”

      Do you get how hypocritical that sounds when you call out a straight person for saying something like that but then turn around and say the exact same thing to trans people? That’s what some of you are. We suffer too. We are people too. So don’t you fucking dare tell us to sit down and shut up when we have problems or things we want to say. Don’t you fucking dare. I’m gay but I have never been welcome in any gay spaces because I’m also trans. Transphobia is one of the largest problems in the gay community. But with some of you it’s all about “poor gay, white, cisgender male me” and no one else matters, not even if they’re also suffering as you are. All of you are too fucking privileged to acknowledge that. You are all Dan Savages.

      We should be working together, but I don’t think I’d want to work with people who are A-OK with others erasing my identity and discriminating against me in society “because it doesn’t affect me”. Well, thank you for your touching concern.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • No One
      No One

      Discussing the acronym LGBT or whatever and our status as a community is a pretty big derail from the accusation that Dan Savage is racist, misogynist, transphobic, and a rape-apologist. To the folks suggesting trans people work on their own issues (as if there’s another way and as if we haven’t already been doing that), trans inclusion in LGB spaces has nothing to do with Dan Savage’s bigotry. By deflecting back to “LGBT”, you’re revealing your own transphobia and effectively apologizing for Savage’s oppressive choices by ignoring them in favor of talking about trans exclusion.

      We already are our own community. And being LGB doesn’t make you immune from being called out for being a transphobic dick. Trans + straight people are expected to join you in opposing homophobia, can’t you join other communities in opposing oppression against them too?

      Also, THANK YOU THANK YOU Queerty for being the first more mainstream LGBT news source I’ve seen that’s covering Don Lemon’s latest transphobic fail against that Girl Scout! Way to go!

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @Kurtis: I agree with you.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      LGBT isn’t even a real thing, much less that absurd hot mess acronym used in the first comment. I love my trans brothers and sisters very much, but their needs overlap with ours very little. GLB people will not put their interests before our own. Yes, a minority of GLB people are also T – I went to college with someone who was a gay man, who turned into a lesbian and later became bi – but a minority of GLB people (probably about as many as are trans) are also Republicans. Does that mean we should be GLBTR? Certainly not.

      The One Big Happy Community myth should have died long ago; it certainly isn’t applicable in today’s world.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      Thirty years ago, I thought we should have all used the word gay. It is a great word and would have helped unify us. But lesbians wouldn’t accept it. They needed their own word. Then trans folk had to have one, which is always changing to create endless controversy.
      And here we go again with the overly fussy trans community.
      Ok. Savage has made a few mistakes. And of course, he’s an editor of commercial media, chosen, as they all are, to dumb down the debate. But he also has gotten a lot better at representing our interests.
      None of this justifies demonizing him. And before criticizing anyone, the community needs to put forward someone who is more honest and knowledgeable than a commercial pundit.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @tallskin2: Arseholes? Dan Savage admitted he is on the learning curve as well. I admire that but the question is how Dan Savage is interpreted by the larger audience. That audience doesn’t even know what transgendered means. If Dan Savage continues to become more and more of a spokesman on LGBT issues that’s great but he can be taken down in an instant because of his seedy sex column of the past and that is something we need to keep in mind. Why build him up to see him inevitably squashed by a powerful sinister force? What i am saying is that there will be no remedy for the greater good which is all of us not just Dan Savage. Society is puritan and it doesn’t seem to be changing anytime soon. He is collateral damage.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kale
      Kale

      He started the It Gets Better project, so that automatically makes everything okay?

      A rapist could start a charity for helping rape victims, but that still doesn’t change the fact that HE’S A RAPIST.

      Dan Savage is not suddenly a saint just because he set up a charity to help LGBT people. He has said some really fucked-up shit about trans people, about rape victims, about asexual people, about overweight people and others, and and he needs to be held accountable for that. It’s not ‘political correctness gone mad’, it’s being a DECENT HUMAN BEING and apologising for hurting the various people you hurt and erased and working towards educating yourself better about these issues. Not denying your privileges and laying the blame on the people you hurt.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wh1t
      Wh1t

      @Sceth:

      “You can just sweep all us sex and gender deviants under the term ‘queer’ or ‘gay’ and avoid distracting people from active efforts.”

      I unfortunately have to disagree with you. Sweeping the entire LGBTQQIAAPP (How I know it currently, there may be more as I haven’t looked for an updated acronym.) under labels for sexual orientation, it removes the specific characteristics from each individual movement and person.

      Being a pansexual transgenderist I do not want to be labeled as “gay” or “queer” as it’s something I’m not. I’m not saying that I don’t want to be associated with such peoples, but I want to set apart my experiences from those who identify differently from me. So that I may respect their plight. If we label everyone ‘gay’ then an ignorant person who has no knowledge of an individual letter will assume that maybe the one or two people from the ‘gay’ community they interact with is representative of the entire community.

      (E.g. What if I were to interact with someone and they thought that all gays were pansexual and transgender? _That_ doesn’t help the cause.)

      Each community has different experiences and needs that have to be addressed. People who simply identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, etc… don’t need to have laws protecting them from discrimination based on Gender Expression or worry about WPATH or the fact that Transgender is seen as a disorder by the DSM-IV (And V). People who simply differ due to their sexual orientation require a separate laws for protection based on that (However, that’s not to say that sexual orientation doesn’t help gender expression or vice versa).

      From a simple black-and-white perspective straight transpeople are not affected by marriage equality (unless you argue that they still are their born sex). Now, it’s my personal belief that marriage equality helps transpeople as it lays a bit of foundation for the entire culture (not just our community) as it changes the beliefs and feelings of people to accept the gay, lesbian, and bisexual community.

      Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things (although I believe sexual orientation along with sex and gender is a part of gender identity); however, the community cannot be lumped together and labeled as one or two words as it strips the uniqueness from each group and in turn hurts our cause. Instead, we should stand together as one community, yet still retaining our individual differences and choose to celebrate those differences.

      Unfortunately, some people decide to attack other groups within the community, as no community is without bad apples. However, instead of attacking the person back, we should instead use it to strengthen our community. It’d be no easy task, however would portray the point that together we as a culture are strong and united.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Kale: I’d like citations for those things he said about rape victims, asexual people and overweight people. Not because I don’t believe you; it certainly seems well within Savage’s character. However, evidence will help strengthen your position on the “is he transphobic or not” debate.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kale
      Kale

      http://fucknodansavage.tumblr.com

      That site has lots of info about problematic stuff Savage has said in the past.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      Here is a thought for everybody worried about the label.

      How many people no matter WHAT your label or how you label yourself are NOT helped by getting gay rights passed? And transgendered, don’t try to claim you aren’t because until the law says that you can legally change your gender, marriage rights will help you too.

      So since most everybody here would be halped by most of the rights being fought for, maybe it’s time to worry more about the big picture right now, and less about whether or not the initial that you have labeled yourself with is in the terminology.

      This has all been done before, how many years were spent fighting over whether it was GLBT or LGBT?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Loke
      Loke

      Since when was Dan Savage a spokesperson for our community? He definitely doesn’t speak for me. We need to stop putting this douche on a pedestal. Like Kale said, just because he created an LGBT charity doesn’t absolve him of all the douchey things he’s done.

      And as for the LGB and T? Well, I’m not trans but I’ll fight for equality for them just as much as for my own equality. And if people are saying erasing and upsetting things, I’ll call them out on it, even if the person saying it happens to be from my own community. I think it’s just selfish for people to go around looking after number one and not caring about the treatment of others, especially when they’re being treated the same as you are, if not worse. I get that you have your own hardships to overcome, but you need to realise that some people have it worse than you and if you’d rather sit back and let people discriminate against trans people – or worse, you yourself telling trans folks to “stop whining” – then it’s a case of the oppressed joining the oppressors. Don’t become part of the problem.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Cam: So, we don’t have the brainpower to do more than one thing at a time? Every waking moment should be spent pursuing our rights? Guess i’ll have to cancel my trip to the DMV today then, that’ll probably take a good two hours I would be using to secure equality.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      Fuck those freaks who attacked Dan Savage. You want to attack one of our few heroes?
      Fine…. but the general population hates you far more than they hate me.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      Oh, and whatever one thinks of LGBT, there’s no excuses for transphobia. One of my pet peeves is when people who are really bigots try to derail a discussion by changing the subject from their bigotry. Whether you think T is like LGB does not give you an excuse to be a bigot against trans people. Its that simple.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      re why Savage is placed into the role of spokesperson grows out of the circle in which he traffics. He’s a creation of the urban gay white male culture and “hip” straight white culture. I remember reading his columns in the 90s, and thinkign the same when I read them. They appeal to a certain crowd. Nothing wrong with that, but that crowd believes he’s a great spokes person because he says things they already believe rather than actually speaks for gay rights in general, much less trans rights or any other queer related issue such as for low income gays (there is no one speaking for low income gays and thus ENDA is not given its proper due).

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HM
      HM

      ah, the snotty acronym crowd….

      my technique: are you different? are you scorned and demeaned for that difference? does what you do by being different in any way harm kids or animals?*

      if you answered yes, yes and no, I’m on board. you’re one of me.

      * -probably not going to jump up anytime soon for scat rights either.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike in Asheville
      Mike in Asheville

      Yikes, yikes, fucking YIKES!

      Dan Savage proves that he is, like everyone else, a human being, of good and of flaw.

      Should he be better offering more of himself for fellow his gender-identity-oppressed beings? ABSOLUTELY. It is mind-boggling to me that with the journey every gay, lesbian, trans, bi, and even straights follow, each of us does not give another their due respect. Who is anyone to question the legitimacy of another’s desires and identity?

      NOTWITHSTANDING, Dan Savage has made a difference in the promotion of sexual freedom and has initiated a national effort against bullying gay kids. Many above claim he is a media whore: who the fuck cares? The “It Gets Better” campaign, while not ending bullying, is diminishing bullying and exposing hypocrite haters. Give credit where credit is due.

      And fuck-all to some above who rail that the gay rights movement “hasn’t been making any progress.” Certainly there is not full equality and that is many years off. (The Civil War ended 150 years ago, yet racism is still alive and well in America.) But fuck you for suggesting that the efforts of so many are a failure. I am 51; when I became of age, more states than not criminalized sodomy; no partner in a gay relationship had any type of partnership rights of any kind; there were no protections in housing or employment, anywhere in the country. Imperfect as it is, every single gay and lesbian couple CAN GET MARRIED. Yes your home state probably won’t recognize it and neither will the federal government. But you can be married and be a part of the on-going movement forward.

      Those who make the efforts, including Gay, Inc. and all the Dan Savages out there, they are not the enemy. They are imperfect for fighting forward.

      Rant and rail against NOM, against the FRC, against the Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, et al Churches — they are the enemies of civil liberty for gays, lesbians, trans, bis.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Mike in Asheville: What “difference” has he made in sexual freedom:? Its this kind of hyperbole that leads the media to believe he’s a proper spokesperson for queer issues, and he’s simply not. He’s a sex advice columnist. That does not make him a bad person. Just not the guy you want doing what you asking him to do.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 12:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Willow
      Willow

      Guys, guys, obviously we should use the acronym QUILTBAG. You know, as in, “the QUILTBAG community”.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tallskin2
      tallskin2

      Mike in Asheville – YES, exactly

      Someone working for us, with us, should not be the one being attacked – go attack the real enemy. People unable to see that are the ones I call ARSEHOLES .

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • leanleft
      leanleft

      @Justin: The problem, Justin- as sites like queerty and bilerico make abundantly clear is there is no real consensus within the trans community itself as to appropriate terms for self-identification. Its why any article around trans-identity on these sites usually boil down to infighting about the use of transgender, transsexual, or not trans at all.

      While I know some on the left had labeled the term “tranny” offensive- that is by no means a settled conversation within the community.

      Furthermore, Dan Savage uses fag and dyke a hell of a lot more than I have seen him use the word tranny and I don’t see people calling him homophobic.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blatherer
      blatherer

      So this is what the gay community gets for sacrificing so much to be “inclusive”. It is no longer acceptable to even say gay anymore. We are now labeled LGBT’s, whatever the hell that is. Gay men are ridiculed and called “cis men” now by the trans folk. Although their goal is to be accepted as normal heterosexuals by society, they expect to receive 50 percent or more of funds donated to gay rights organizations. Case in point: the recent Maryland marriage equality fiasco. Trans activists led a constant tirade of criticism and non-support for this campaign which ultimately failed. This did not stop them from spending the same organization’s funds on their own issues.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Loke
      Loke

      @tallskin2

      And people who are unable to acknowledge that someone from their own community are being offensive are the ones that I call assholes. It doesn’t matter what sexuality or race or gender or anything else someone is. If they’re being a bigot, THEY’RE BEING A BIGOT. FULL STOP.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Willow: I prefer Fetish, poly-Amorous, Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, Intersexed, Transgender, Transsexual Engendering Revolution or inter-Racial attraction, Heterosexual Attracted to Transpeople. FABGLITTERHAT for short.

      Please can this be a thing?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wh1t
      Wh1t

      @blatherer:

      You know what “cis” means right?
      It’s Latin for “on this side.” It’s used to denote cis people from trans people. Cis meaning, “not trans.”

      Showing that difference means we’re ridiculing? Ha, funny. Ridiculing is something like, “I laugh at you for your lack of knowledge.”

      And for the other issues regarding the use of words. Is it not an empowerment issue?

      Example:

      Is it okay for a black person to use the “‘N’ word?” What about a white person?

      How about taking back the words “gay,” “fag,” “dyke,” etc… What if a person who is gay, or lesbian uses it versus who isn’t? Are you offended?

      The same with the word “Tranny” and “Shemale,” but as far as I know there isn’t a movement to reclaim those words.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      Can we just get one thing clear, not all trans people are looking for handouts from gays, and a lot are actually fighting for their own and gay rights. I think a lot of you have a hell of a nerve to call out black people when you would just as soon as turn on another minority.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteveC
      SteveC

      I prefer GIBLET (GAY INTERSEX BI LESBIAN EVERYONE TRANS)

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Loke
      Loke

      @blatherer:
      Your comment ignores the fact that there are gay/lesbian/bisexual transfolks. Not all transfolks are heterosexual. And “cisgender” is not an insult, it is used to differentiate people who are not trans. Like “heterosexual” and “homosexual”. You don’t say “heterosexual” and “not-heterosexual”, so why say “transgender” and “not-transgender”? And I agree with Aiden, in fact most trans organizations are on their own most of the time, because they are largely ignored by big-scale LGB(T) organizations. And if they do have to join up with the LGB, it’s because they lack the funding and the voice and the wide support of things like the media and other organizations. It’s not leeching or expecting handouts from the gay community, it’s asking for support which, if they feel they want to, the gay community willingly – not grudgingly – gives because it recognizes that some (some, but not all) of our issues overlap with transfolks issues, so if transfolks can benefit from it as well then it would surely be better, wouldn’t it? How is that any different from the gay community asking for support from heterosexual society?
      And I don’t know much about the Maryland thing, but if there was a piece of legislation that would achieve equality for some minorities by throwing other minorities under the bus, then I wouldn’t be comfortable supporting that legislation even if it would make my own life easier, because I’d know that other people’s livelihoods, identities and rights were sacrificed in the process.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      well I certainly hope that all of your who dislike Dan Savage are making a point to be just as Visible, Vocal, Out, Open and KNOWN as not only LGBT People but advocates for Equality, since you think he’s doing such a lousy job as a “spokesman” and/or role-model.

      right?

      If you think Savage isnt’ doing the right thing, you have one option and one option only – raise your own damn voice to represent what you feel needs to be represented. bitching and complaining from the confines of your Online Anonymous Closet makes you about as useful as tits on a fish.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LukeM
      LukeM

      Dan Savage is likely going to respond to this event with a large portion of reflexivity and sensitivity, and that’s exactly what makes him a better advocate for LGBT* rights than the self-righteous idiots who have risen to prominence in the Trans movement, in GLAAD, in the HRC and a few other organizations who are in-love with creating new taboos and are all too often responsible for spreading sex negativity, shame, and repression instead of positiveness, fun, and tolerance.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • No One
      No One

      @Loke:

      The Maryland thing: about a decade ago, LGB & T activists got together and campaigned for a state non-discrimination bill trans people ultimately were NOT included in (kind of like SONDA/GENDA in New York except Equality Maryland didn’t lie about inclusion to any trans civil rights heroines on their deathbed–like they did in New York).

      This year, a marriage equality bill and a bill to give some (but not all–no public accommodations: emergency shelters, bathrooms, retail, etc) non-discrimination protections to trans people were up for a vote and both failed. There was significant debate across the states regarding the incomplete trans bill as a slap in the face to the exclusion which had already been permitted. Trans women were censored online by Equality Maryland, one board member referring to them as “circus freaks.” There were accusations that Equality Maryland was racist and that they were using a quote of support from a local trans org that had rescinded their support after finding out the bill was incomplete. Big shitstorm.

      Then one certain lesbian rights activist in Maryland penned at least two articles and one letter to the United Nations against trans rights, marking the start of the next generation of radical feminists opposed to transsexual women. And that about brings us up to present.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emma
      Emma

      Heya guys,

      I’m trans female, and I like to read Savage Love sometimes.

      The piece ‘Bad Tranny’ is completely disgusting, and shows a complete lack of understanding of what it is like to be trans. If this woman tried to wait 36 months, she could end up committing suicide, and then the child would have only the one parent. Now I don’t know the age of the couple involved, but transition becomes increasingly difficult for trans women if they put it off and grow older and more masculine in the meantime. The child would more likely prefer to have a passable trans parent than a more manly looking woman, at least this is what I would expect. Also present of course is the classic transphobic trope of trivialising, mocking transition by reducing it to the surgery even though the poor woman writing in mentioned hormones right there.

      Now IF Dan has given a straightforward, hands up apology for this, and maybe he has, and that was the end of it, honestly I’d be HAPPY with that. 2003 was a very long time ago.

      But the problem is that the dude doesn’t seem to understand why it’s wrong to throw around transphobic terms. He doesn’t get stones thrown at him in the street or get beaten up while people shout tr****. And sure terms can be re-appropriated by individuals by people who identify with those terms and want to strike back a bit, but I don’t believe that’s what’s happening here.

      Peace.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kurt
      Kurt

      Transexuals are the authenic ex-gays.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Miguel
      Miguel

      I think Dan Savage is a fairly good spokesperson in general for gay rights and progressive points of view. He is intelligent and articulate, not to mention funny. He is, however, very honest, so some sensitive people find that off-putting. He does engage in quite a bit of swearing and shocking in his column, but that’s normal given that the sexual subject matter of the column. His other work on TV and so on for the general public is different in tone.
      On the charges of him being trans-phobic: have these people ever listened to his weekly podcast in the last few years?He constantly has trans advocates as guests and discusses trans issues in depth and in a sympathetic light. Maybe he was a bit transphobic years ago –no idea, I was child then — but whoever accuses him of being an enemy of trans people now has got a couple of screws loose.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emma
      Emma

      Personally, I’m bisexual. :p

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      @Atlas:

      I totally agree and always have. Trans people are with the LGB community because the Women’s Right Movement didn’t want them and gays and lesbians were just as marginalized, so they included them under their umbrella.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Uh, transpeople are a part of our Movement because they’re our fucking brothers and sisters. I stand proudly alongside them.

      And we all should.

      something to check out: http://youtu.be/zJom6vyRtQc

      Nov 2, 2011 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiizaku
      Aiizaku

      I understand the alphabet soup being an issue BUT “gay” doesn’t cover the trans gender community, there is essentially two aspect That accumulates the alphabet soup. Sexual Orientation and Gender. LGBA is sexual oriented while the tran’s “unbrella” is gender oriented Being “Gay” isn’t being “Trans”, and to be honest, they have nothing but shared discrimination in common. What would be more inclusive is saying Gay and Trans community. ta da!!! or sexual orientation and gender rights. (Which technically includes EVERYONE)
      One good word I like,is Queer. BTW you can be biologically straight or gay and be Trans….

      Nov 2, 2011 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Psychos
      Psychos

      Apparently it’s bad to throw around transphobic terms, but ok for the trans supporters to call Savage a “douche”. No misogyny there. I guess they think he’s weak & lame, you know “a pussy”.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Red Meat
      Red Meat

      Gays can make jokes on Gays nowadays, but gays can’t make jokes about other people in the LGBT community? You are either with us or not – chill or depart. I strongly believe no one is born transgender because it is already a proven fact that male and female roles are socially created and we all allow ourselves to fit the mole as we are developing. That being said, there is nothing wrong with being transgender, in fact I wish the lines between female and male roles start to blend going forward. Transgender people belong in the gay community because we share the same burden.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 3:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Riker: said…

      “@Cam: So, we don’t have the brainpower to do more than one thing at a time? Every waking moment should be spent pursuing our rights? Guess i’ll have to cancel my trip to the DMV today then, that’ll probably take a good two hours I would be using to secure equality.”
      _____________________

      If you can’t figure out what it was I was saying, then let me explain it clearly. This isn’t about not being able to do two things at once. This is about our fights for equality getting stopped because some of the trans activists have decided that they get more press by attacking the “Gays” and fighting with them rather than advocating for Trans rights.

      Again, when marriage equality passed in NY, the leader of the transgendered rights came out and released a press statement attacking gay marriage and the gay communities fight for rights even though marriage equality helps transgendered rights singe it currently isn’t legal to switch your gender on an official document.

      Were they being helpful coming out and attacking marriage equality? No actually they were acting in opposition.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      Adding the to the acronym T was the biggest fuck-up gay activists ever made.

      Ever.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ogre Magi
      Ogre Magi

      Some of you said that you have met Dan Savage before, what is he like as a person?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AedanRoberts
      AedanRoberts

      Wow. Both here and Towleroad this topic is a complete mess.

      I’ll just offer this, though: Dan Savage is not the enemy here. He is not “Trans-phobic”. And if we were to require all people working to advocate for our community/cause to have squeaky-clean records with perfect views on this subject from the very beginning of their career we would be shit out of luck. Dan is human. He has grown and allowed his opinions and messages to shift with time. He’s also irreverent and rude to everyone. Saying he’s trans-phobic for using the term “tranny” or “shemale” is simply stupid. He also likes to use “faggot,” “Douche,” and “Scrotum”- does this make him Male-phobic or Homophobic as well? Nope. He just uses caustic terms a lot. And yet if you pay attention to his message he is constantly calling attention to attacks on trans-people. He’s calling for an end to this violence. He’s advocating acceptance of this community as much as his own.

      No one is perfect. And the second you throw a person out for saying something in their younger years (something they have since changed their opinion on) then you are throwing out every potential ally and tool in our arsenal.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adam
      Adam

      Dan Savage is one of the LGBT community’s greatest assets. He lets his mouth run, but he doesn’t sugar coat things, and he doesn’t pretend to be perfect. He’s a pragmatist, not an idealist.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • matt
      matt

      If you want credible leaders in the LGBT movement that means LGBT people have to hold their leaders accountable to do it right.

      Thank you trans people for speaking up and challenging us all to be better.

      What annoys me most of all is that a community that is always going on about “Free speech free speech free speech” defending politically-incorrect statements is turning around advocating the silencing of trans people and their right to criticize other LGBT people.

      If Dan Savage uses this as an opportunity to do some self-reflection, all of us will be better off for it and Savage’s own message will be better off for it because it models exactly what he wants anti-gay people to do; to self-reflect and change. We’d have trans activists to thank for that.

      It’s really disgusting to hear lesbian and gay people advocating the ejection of the “T” from LGBT. Y’all are just hypocritical bullies. The LGBT movement is not about us as individual groups, it’s about challenging society to stop defining gender and sexual roles for people. If you think opposing a same-sex relationship is not about gender, you’re willfully ignorant.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • matt
      matt

      If you want credible leaders in the LGBT movement that means LGBT people have to hold their leaders accountable to do it right.

      Thank you trans people for speaking up and challenging us all to be better.

      What annoys me most of all is that a community that is always going on about “Free speech free speech free speech” defending politically-incorrect statements is turning around advocating the silencing of trans people and their right to criticize other LGBT people.

      If Dan Savage uses this as an opportunity to do some self-reflection, all of us will be better off for it and Savage’s own message will be better off for it because it models exactly what he wants anti-gay people to do; to self-reflect and change. We’d have trans activists to thank for that.

      It’s really disgusting to hear lesbian and gay people advocating the ejection of the “T” from LGBT. Y’all are just hypocritical bullies. The LGBT movement is not about us as individual groups, it’s about challenging society to stop defining gender and sexual roles for people. If you think a same-sex relationship is not about gender, you’re willfully ignorant.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Hyhybt
      Hyhybt

      @SteveC: Too close to “gibbet.”

      Nov 2, 2011 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michaelalan
      Michaelalan

      Transphibic? What Dan Savage? He used to dress in drag in public events to keep his identity hidden in Seattle.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JJ
      JJ

      As if it didn’t suck enough to be a closeted gay/trans teenager. It’s easy to ignore most people who talk shitto trans people, because I assume that they’re just uneducated about LGBT issues, but when the shit is coming from the gay community, a community that I thought I belong to, it makes me loose my faith in all humanity.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @ Red Meat

      Ummm, wrong. There’s no such proven fact, just theorizing from notable cissexist academicians like Janice Raymond Mary Daly, Julie Bindel, and so on. Also Judith Butler, who while not anti-trans, did create a legacy of harm with her “gender as performance” theory that gained so much popularity in the feminist movement (to Butler’s credit, she continues to evolve the conversation, but almost no one pays attention to that in favor of the overly simple and conveniently soundbite-ish “gender is a construct” meme). The truth is that there’s quite a bit of science, a lot of it done along trans identities, to suggest that certain aspects of gender identification are innate. Even if that weren’t the case, the argument for trans rights remains the same – constructed identities are still real identities – but the truth is the truth and you might as well get your facts straight.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 5:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Steve McGaw
      Steve McGaw

      @ewe: Oh. come on! Because he uses a certain kind of vernacular in his column- a column designed to be outrageous and attract attention (hence, readers)- gay people should totally reject Dan Savage and distance ourselves? Right, because we don’t wish to be identified with someone who’s smart, brave, clever, funny and outspoken. Why? Because he says things that are offensive, challenging, hilarious and not PC? I get so tired of gay people thinking any “spokesman” has to be as bland as a PTA president, so as not to offend any of those straight majority people we don’t dare offend. Guess what? If we all wear coats and ties and start teaching Sunday School, they won’t like us any better. I don’t consider Dan my spokesman, but I cherish his wit and candor and courage. I also realize, from the time I get up in the morning until I go to bed at night- EVERY day- that there are many, many people who don’t like me, who don’t approve of me and whose minds I will never change. I don’t care.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 5:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Psychos: I don’t know where you live, but where I live Douche is another word for asshole and I really think your reaching.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joetx
      Joetx

      If Dan Savage isn’t a racist, he at least has some issues with minorities, especially blacks. He quickly blamed blacks for the passage of Prop 8, but quickly distanced himself from his own assertion & tried to erase all such evidence.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope

      Dan Savage deserved every bit of it.

      This isn’t about GL vs. BT or GLB vs. T or however you want to frame it.

      It’s about confronting cis-sexism, racism and rape-apologists in a community that claims to be opposed to injustice and accepting of difference when a lot of the time it isn’t.

      And this self-righteous “tranny” is going here to stay. Deal with it.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 6:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @Steve McGaw: you say ” because we don’t wish to be identified with someone who’s smart, brave, clever, funny and outspoken. Why?” That is your rendition of Dan Savage and his sex column. If you were around to read his column which i am going to assume you were since you are speaking about it then you know he went from raunch and kinky to more raunch and kinky the following week so as to outdo himself so it became an insult to anyone writing him. Believe me I have never been accused of being a prude but his column was some of the most disgraceful crap i have ever read. Each week while sitting in the cafe i read his rude vile responses to people asking questions about sex, sexuality and sexual orientation so yes Steve, it is ok to feel he has no credibility to speak on the topic today. Being bland is not the topic here. Stay on the issue please. Dan Savage is being accused of the same sort of thing today except it is now by the transgendered community. He is not witty, hip or whatever other chic adjective you want to stroke your ego with. One need not get up in everyones hoochy and asshole spilling shit and body fluids around like its party confetti. There is no “courage” in making fun of people Steve. We are also not speaking about you personally because you are not a spokesman speaking on behalf of people other than yourself. Dan Savage does speak on behalf of more people than himself. Feel free to stay in your private bubble since as you say you plain ol “don’t care.” Some people do. He is fucking wrong and that’s why he said he has learned more since yesteryear. That does not mean your past doesn’t follow you. Look at Herman Cain.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 6:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @matt: touche’.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 6:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @missanthrope:

      Explain how Savage is a rape apologist please.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adrian Acosta
      Adrian Acosta

      Don’t worry Dan, it gets better.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Everett
      Everett

      Of course he deserved that glitterbomb. It’s not like It Gets Better is anything more than his own cult of personality campaign.

      Some of my articles about the limitations of Dan:
      http://transplantportation.com/?s=dan+savage&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Go

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Storm
      Storm

      Well, this discussion does illustrate One Great Truth: we’re all assholes to somebody.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Psychos
      Psychos [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Aiden: The term “douche” has become the equivalent of “asshole” but that’s not it’s original meaning and you need to really think about why it became used in this context in the first place. No different than using “pussy” as a derogatory term. It’s incredibly hypocritical to “bitch” about misogyny while using terms such as “douche”, “pussy”, or “bitch”. Think about it. No stretch at all, really.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Egal
      Egal

      @SteveC: There’s also QUILTBAG, which has the advantage of visual metaphor. Queer Undecided Intersex Lesbian Trans Bi Asexual Gay: All special pockets on the big rainbow QUILTBAG.

      I am so, so grateful these folks glitterbombed Savage. It meant that all the GLBs who don’t want me in their movement came out of the woodwork to say so. As a recently-out-of-the-closet transperson, I didn’t even know you guys were there! I knew this whole umbrella movement seemed way too good to be true.

      So now I’m back to watching over my shoulder for the next dickbag to stab me in the back, which is the state of mind I’m most familiar with. Phew. I was almost getting comfortable with the illusion that I belonged somewhere.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @Psychos:

      Pussy =/= Douche

      The former refers to and places a value judgment on a part of a person’s body. The latter is a just a thing you buy in a store, pushed upon vagina-possessors because some people (guess who?) have this erroneous belief that vaginas are nasty gross smelly things that need constant specialized cleansing. There’s a lot of evidence to suggest that they’re not only useless, but actually harmful to women.

      Personal opinions may vary, but my feminist circle finds it to be a pretty effective insult and not misogynistic in the least. By our estimation, douche = sorta gross and totally useless patriarchal tool. In the context that it’s used, that sounds about right to me.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @Psychos:

      Pussy =/= Douche

      The former refers to and places a value judgment on a part of a person’s body. The latter is a just a thing you buy in a store, pushed upon vagina-possessors because some people (guess who?) have this erroneous belief that vaginas are nasty gross smelly things that need constant specialized cleansing. There’s a lot of evidence to suggest that they’re not only useless, but actually harmful to people who use them.

      Personal opinions may vary, but my feminist circle finds it to be a pretty effective insult and not misogynistic in the least. By our estimation, douche = sorta gross and totally useless patriarchal tool. In the context that it’s used, that sounds about right to me.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 7:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan
      Dan

      Well he certainly doesn’t have a reason to be leader on T issues now.

      And you should ask someone whether they are a gay leader or an LGBT leader. There is a difference. Some gay people just focus on gay issues around the world, just like plenty of trans people do not focus on gay issues since most trans people consider themselves heterosexual and wanting to transition gender.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 8:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tiki
      Tiki

      Dan Savage is not the lighthouse for how to act within the LGBT community, beaming out what everyone should be doing. He is a man with his opinions. He obviously does not hate trans people. But he doesn’t spend a lot of time coddling them, either, the same treatment he gives the L B and A’s as well.

      In reference to Tobi’s allegations within the article, you know what the issue was where Dan ‘verbally thrashe(d) a trans person who got upset at being mispronouned’? I was that a woman had said ‘Yes Ma’am’ to her female – identified trans friend. She used the correct pronoun, but was rebuked by her friend for some reason. That is what Dan was upset about.

      Who are these people? They should make themselves known as accessible people who just want to live life, not insulting and aggressive. That makes it easier to put a mark on the back of any other trans persone someone might meet.

      People, and I mean this in the most open minded of ways, need to chill the fuck out.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 8:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @Dan:

      just like plenty of trans people do not focus on gay issues since most trans people consider themselves heterosexual and wanting to transition gender.

      Are you talking globally? Even so, I’m dubious about your assertions. I *am* trans, I know lots of trans people, I’m active in both local and online trans communities, and I know barely any trans people who identify as purely straight. Those who do tend to be trans women of my generation (middle-aged or approaching it), but even then, I don’t know any in person who don’t identify somewhere on the queer spectrum. I think the number of hetero identifying trans people goes up when you start looking outside western nations, but then you’re looking at places where queer identities are horribly marginalized and therefore trans people who have transitioned are often less likely to adopt an openly queer identity for fear because of the additional stigma that comes with them.

      Honestly, this is the sort of thing that we’ve been complaining about…what cis people think the trans community is and what it actually is are often very different things. The over familiarity the greater LGB community projects towards trans people really just ends up being misinformation, and speaks volumes about how little attention has been paid to trans voices in the movement. And yet people wonder why we get so wound up about stuff.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 8:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      And in response to the idea that trans people don’t take an interest in greater LGB activism, I think that’s both true and not true. I mean, I know lots of trans people for whom LGB issues are their issues. Heck, they are for me too…I’m pansexual, and a lot of the issues affecting LGB people affect me as well. But also, time and energy and money are finite resources and a lot of us are forced to prioritize how we use ours. Trans issues receive very little attention, but with 1 in 12 trans people dying violent deaths globally, unemployment in the US possibly as high as 50%, suicide attempt rates approaching 50% or higher, workplace discrimination hovering at 98%…well, you can see the problem. I want everyone to be able to marry whomever the want – I want that for myself, too – but I’m much more worried about whether I’ll be assaulted, maybe even grievously injured, the next time I want to use a public restroom.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 8:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kenny
      Kenny

      @Renee: Because only feminists get to define what constitutes misogyny? Again, fighting bigotry with bigotry – not effective.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JDSwell
      JDSwell

      The LGB community and the T community have joined in a pragmatic, but not perfect alliance. We are bound by a common thread of discrimination and derision, but we are not perfectly aligned and our interests can diverge. When those interests diverge those folks in the LGB community will align with their own interests and the trans folks will do likewise… that does not make us transphobic or them homophobic. It makes us self-interested. Guilty. Such are the results of an imperfect political alliance.

      We are much more alike than different. Attacking Dan Savage who has been an LGB champion doesn’t advance either cause and in fact helps the enemy. That is the worst kind of self-interest. Some would say it is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 9:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Travis
      Travis

      Ive met Dan, I’ve read his books, and his column. He is a good person with good intentions…AND speaks his mind with no sugar coating. I don’t always agree with him, but I am glad he is OUT there and raising awareness.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 9:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @Kenny:

      Not just feminists necessarily. Women, or people who were coercively identified as women, I would say have the loudest voices in that discussion though, and among them, its those who identify as feminists who are the most outspoken. So yeah, I’m comfortable with the definition of “douche” as I presented it.

      I’m not really sure what bigotry you’re talking about. That people with vaginas have reclaimed the word “douche” as an acceptable insult to use against someone who’s being a jerk? Or because it’s primarily used to describe masculine-identified people who are being sexist jerks? I mean, I guess there’s a conversation to be had there, but in general, the word “douche” is used by those who have been victims of misogyny to call it out when they see it. Men complaining about being called names are going to be met with a lot of deaf ears and eye-rolling, much like white people whining about reverse racism. There’s a power imbalance in play, and those without it have precious few ways to level the playing field. One of them is owning the way the conversation happens, including the words that are used.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 9:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ambrose
      Ambrose

      @Kurtis: “LGBTTIQQ2SA?” You are joking, right?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tom in Lazybrook
      Tom in Lazybrook

      @evanb: I agree. Look, lets just admit that everyone has a different agenda. They usually are in synch, but they are not the same. I want ENDA passed as I am a Gay male living in a state where we have no protection. Perhaps, the T community has other priorities.

      Politics is a sport where compromise and prioritization is a part of the process. Demanding all or nothing usually results in getting …. nothing.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ryan H
      Ryan H

      @Kale: Truth.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Red Meat
      Red Meat

      @Renee:Don’t spew me that crap. It is proven and and not hard to see how humans develop their self-image, one only has to look at some of the oldest tribes in China and Latin America. A “third gender,” use of make-up, androgynous clothing, and androgynous roles in society. Really, you think you can disprove that with some stupid bitch’s “research”?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adman
      Adman

      There’s a name for someone who needs surgery, hormone replacement, and any and all “inclusive” queer spaces to speak for them and only them while everyone else is relegated to the background for the privilege of basking in their glow. The word is insane. If it’s not your real body, why the fuck is it mine all of a sudden? Can you listen to yourselves?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Red
      Red

      @evanb: As a trans person AND a comedian, I just gotta ask: umad?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Cam:

      http://www.womanist-musings.com/2010/11/dan-savage-attacks-rape-survivor-while.html

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim
      Tim

      A queer house divided can not stand, friends.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JM
      JM

      @Justin: You’ll always have a place in my acronym!

      While I would agree with those who claim gender identity is no indicator of sexual orientation, the two concepts are enormously conflated in the public mind. For this reason, gender issues in general, and particularly trans issues should necessarily be a part of any LGBT movement. Besides, we’re all discriminated against for similar reasons — we break what many see as sex-defined boundaries just by existing.

      For the record, I consider myself gender-neutral, and gay with respect to my body’s gender. I really don’t want a new letter, though… I think the diversity among us is important to acknowledge, but should be implied by any acronyms we use. I’d even be in favour of just a two letter acronym — something that indicates a partnership between sexual diversity and gender diversity… maybe something like QT for “Queer-Trans”. Any thoughts?

      Nov 2, 2011 at 10:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @Red Meat:

      Wow, I find your comment incredibly hostile and unnecessarily misogynistic. I’m not sure what your investment is, but you have some issues around this subject, and possibly around women. FWIW, nothing you cited is proof against the existence of an innate, inborn sense of gender identity. And clearly you’re not interested in divesting yourself of ignorance. If I’m wrong about that, maybe Google will be your friend, because there’s a lot more than one person’s research out there. A lot more. As for me, I’m out. After all, I’m just another stupid bitch, so clearly my opinion is worthless to you, regardless of how well-reasoned or factually correct it is.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Renee:

      So bigotry against whites and men is perfectly acceptable.

      Typical leftist feminazi feminonsense. See that attitude right there is why no one of any importance takes you and your ilk seriously.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Renee
      Renee

      @JayKay:

      *sigh*

      It’s not that it’s acceptable. It’s just not a problem, at least in the USA, and I suspect most of Europe. When an oppressed group lashes out at their oppressors, it’s not bigotry or prejudice, bur rather an entirely different social phenomenon. “Cause you see, when people get beat up on and treated like shit, and that happens all the time (like it does with systemic racism and sexism), sometimes even up to and including murder, they become justifiably anxious, upset, and frightened. The lashing out is a defense mechanism, much like crossing the street to avoid walking by strange men is a defense mechanism for rape survivors (in fact, it’s an aspect of the same thing).

      But hey, thanks for the misogyny. And totes yes, feminists are always also nazis, because clearly we can never Godwin enough.

      Nov 2, 2011 at 11:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Renee:

      Nope, you’re wrong. It is a problem. Bigotry is bigotry, and white males are the worst victims of it. Typical for a woman to be incapable of understanding such a simple concept.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 12:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joetx
      Joetx

      “Bigotry is bigotry, and white males are the worst victims of it.”

      Ha ha.

      Did you learn that from Faux News or talk radio?

      Nov 3, 2011 at 12:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Riker
      Riker

      @Renee: Proponents of Female Supremacy masquerade as feminists. Tell me, how many feminists are begging to be required to register for the Draft, just like males are? How many are begging to be placed on the front lines in combat zones? How many want to abolish the silly idea of chivalry, that the man always pays for dinner, that men should go out of their way to be more respectful towards women than other men?

      How many feminists have no problem spending $100 per month on beauty products, manicures, makeup etc, but would balk at the idea of their boyfriend/husband doing the same? How many are willing to pay child support and lose custody of their children in the event of a divorce, in the name of equality?

      They want it both ways. Equal rights, but fewer responsibilities? Feminists hate souble standards, except when it works to their advantage.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 12:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JayKay
      JayKay

      @Joetx:

      When you live in the real world instead of a Queer African-Ameircan Womens’ Studies Theory classroom it’s clear that white men are by far the most systemically oppressed group in America.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Digby
      Digby

      Rape apologist? That is insane and completely deflates the argument against Dan Savage. When has he ever apologized for rape? Also the column about the bad tranny is completely in Savage’s philosophy: family first. You might disagree. I myself don’t have a family, but I can see where he is coming from. Dan is a good spokesman by default; there are few smart and articulate spokesmen out there. This whole glitterbomb shows the reactionary and narrow views of some activists. My trans friends are down-to-earth, humorous, and whip-smart. They also avoid pointless semantic arguments. But at the transmarches we attend, the activists always are the most sour dour ones, who seem to hog the microphone. We need activists fighting for causes, but shit like this is an exercise in futility.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JM
      JM

      @Renee: Not that hard to see his point, though. Logically, if some human beings are capable of developing a sense-of-self independent of sex (ie. genderless, or third gender, or neutral-gender), then gender must therefore not be innate. There are enough examples of this phenomenon — from multiple cultures and time periods — so it is not just an unsystematic anomaly. I think the case can be made, easily, and without resorting to misogyny. Empirical evidence ftw.

      Many trans folk would argue otherwise, of course. Many believe the assertion that “gender is innate” is integral to their cause — and many believe it, fiercely. This parallels exactly the claim of gays that “we are born this way”. Such claims are usually made because the opposite side — the one trying to deny the oppressed group a voice and human rights — tries avoid seeming bigoted by trying to be clever instead. They inevitably make the argument that “you chose to be that way, therefore you are being different on purpose,” in the hopes that their target will bow to social pressure and conform — thereby acting, collectively, like a giant douche.

      What I am astounded at is that very few people in the LGBT community ever make the point that all this is all a rather unnecessary debate with respect to policy decisions. If someone has an identity, however constructed, it should be recognized. To do otherwise would be to shit on a person’s right to define themselves. Who cares if it’s a choice, or innate — at the end of the day, it should not matter. People are an end, not a means, and we should be fighting side by side to see we are treated as such.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 3:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris
      Chris

      The trans movement needs dan savage as much as we need HRC.
      Oh right, we don’t.
      Very glad someone has brought all this attention to what a terrible person dan is.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 3:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • R.A,
      R.A,

      Renee,besides which many gay men “douche” as well in preparation for sex. This is not an exclusively women’s term.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 4:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • chrisssssss
      chrisssssss

      I’ve been a reader and a listener of Dan Savage for several years now, and I feel that over that time I’ve developed a decent understanding of the man. He is not racist, transphobic, misogynistic, or a rape apologist (And anyone who believes he is a rape apologist is incredibly dumb). Dan is simply a blunt queer who sometimes steps over some semantic lines. He’s also a humorist. And that “Bad Tranny” article, which I went back and read, is funny. I see why some in the trans community would find it offensive. But is Dan Savage really a threat to trans people? Is he someone they should rally against? Not unless they’re f’ing morons. Dan Savage has done more for queers (including trans folks) than anyone commenting on this article. I guarantee it. So, stop whining about Mr. Savage and do something tangible to make the world a better place for trans people. Throwing glitter at him like a bunch of four-year-olds is the very definition of counterproductive.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 5:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tackle
      Tackle

      @Jotex: I agree with you that Dan Savage does have a problem with blacks. The whole blaming blacks for the passage of prop 8 left a bitter taste in my mouth with this man.

      After prop 8 was passed, he came out the NEXT day and “blamed” blacks for the passage. Never mind the Mormons, Catholic Church, Evangelicals and the Church of Scientology who spent millions upon millions of dollars to pass prop 8.

      Even after it was disproven. Because the number blacks who voted was 48% but they only repersented 9% of the actual (Electoral Vote,Which would not make a difference either way ) This man never issued a retraction or admitted he was wrong. Causing more damage in a already divided GLBT community.
      Yes every one makes mistakes. Dan Savage needs to step forward and admit that he made a big mistake. Even if that was two years ago.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 5:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marauder
      Marauder

      The main problem with Dan Savage is that he never wants to apologize for anything offensive he’s done. If he did, it would at least be a sign that he can admit he’s screwed up, but it seems like in his mind, he never screws up. As well as being transphobic in the past, he’s also said some incredibly ignorant and incorrect things about bisexual people as recently as a few months ago. The worst part is that some straight people who aren’t particularly aware of diversity in the GLBT community see the things he says and assume it’s okay for them to say them too, because he’s this gay activist and so the things he says CAN’T be offensive.

      This attitude about how we “shouldn’t tear down one of our few heroes,” or however the hell you want to put it, reminds me of somebody who refuses to criticize their partner because they’re just so grateful they found someone who loves them. Dan Savage can have done good things for the GLBT community AND be offensive and ignorant at the same time.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 7:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Greg
      Greg

      There are lots of cisgender G’s/L’s and relatively few T’s, so there is simple misunderstanding from unfamiliarity. I live in a liberal, but medium-sized northeastern city and I’ve only once (knowingly) even talked with a T.

      It seems from these comments that T’s can’t agree on much of anything… except that those mean GL’s, especially us men, are always GUESSING wrong about T attitudes. (Darn it, we’re so oppressive that way! Sorry.)

      This is not to let Dan Savage off the hook, however, since he is confident (or arrogant) enough to be writing an advice column as a lucrative profession – from Ann Landers’ desk no less. The rest of us have opinions all we want but at least we aren’t actually being PAID to give advice. Irritation with Dan is therefore perfectly logical and understandable.

      Often when Dan is unsure of an answer he refers it to a helper – especially when the answer involves something Dan considers icky, like vaginas – so I’ve never understood why he doesn’t just get a couple of reliable T advisers.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 9:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nikki H
      Nikki H

      I , for one, am tired of some gay men and lesbians who are just plain intolerant towards the Trans community. While I basically evolved out of the gay community and have many gay and lesbian friends, I have at times encountered hostility by a few extremists in the GL community. Look, I don’t expect everyone to “get it”. The Trans community even fights amongst themselves but don’t pretend to be some paragon of tolerance and sexual enlightenment and then hurl degrading epithets at Trans folks as though we are freaks. Words have power. You are doing to us, the same thing you complain about straight people doing to you.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 9:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • the gay community
      the gay community

      I think everyone will be happy if the trans community would stop riding our coat-tails.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 9:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ugh
      Ugh

      The problem here is that the debate is entirely semantic; an obsession with language and the control thereof that has spiraled completely out of control. Someone at another forum recently posted a “bill of particulars” of offensive Savage comments–keep in mind that this amounted to five or six separate, isolated comments over a span of about nine years (none of which, I hasten to add, seemed to address the racist/rape-apologist memes). I read all of the columns. Now, I am not trans, and I *can* understand how some could be offended and how malicious intent could be read into Savage’s comments.

      Yet it’s also clear that such an interpretation is hardly the only one. But by focusing so narrowly on forbidden words and thoughts, and by searching through those columns for grievances, other outcomes are foreclosed. For example, someone analyzed the “Bad Tranny” column, noting each and every *thing* in isolation that was supposedly transphobic, from the apparent use of an improper pronoun (which followed the letter’s lead, and was not entirely forestalled by the uncertain status of the trans person in question) to the very use of “tranny” (which was somehow expanded into “Dan Savage thinks Tranny should apply to all trans people,” which is odd, as we’re dealing with the closed universe of a sex-advice column–in which one would think more relaxed standards apply). The overall theme of the letter–Dan issuing a surprisingly conservative, “do what’s best for the kids” moral–is barely mentioned *except* as a way to scold Savage for daring to suggest that any transition be delayed for external factors, which is apparently inherently transphobic, could lead to suicide, etc.

      To be clear, I am not suggesting that offense is not warranted–nor am I claiming Dan Savage’s infallibility or his purity of spirit. But what some in the activist community occasionally fail to realize is that not everything is enamored of this obsession with policing and proper language, nor is everyone fond of a constant parade of apologizing, denunciation, and cowering. We are adults and there is no need to act as if everyone who is not 100% aligned with your methods is a petulant child in need of correction–or, worse, vulgar pseudo-snark. In some ways, parts of the activist community come off as impossible to please. And that’s not a bad thing! We need elements to keep our feet to the fire, as either a fractured or unified community, and true believers are greatly welcomed. At the same time, those true believers need to realize that their way is not the only way (I am a reminded of a Hampshire College disorientation guide–Hampshire College, for god’s sake–where the authors took three pages to sternly lecture supposed “trans allies” about the many things they were probably doing that robbed them of their ally status. I was not aware that community and support required complete obedience and subjugation).

      Anyway, that’s my piece. No tl;dr version forthcoming, I’m afraid. Flame on if so inclined.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 10:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tom in Lazybrook
      Tom in Lazybrook

      @the gay community: I don’t mind the Trans community riding our coattails, I mind the trans community demanding that we subrogate the goals of the Gay community to their goals. Each letter within the LGBTIQA community has a separate agenda. Frequently these goals are in synch. Sometimes they are not. Politics is a game of tradeoffs and compromises. I support the Trans

      Unfortunately, there are those in the Trans community that feel that they should block any progress unless we stop all progress in any area unless they get what they want first.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 10:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BubbasBack
      BubbasBack

      Well well well folks, didn’t you know? Dan Savage is the gay Ann Coulter. Burp.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 10:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mike128
      mike128

      Wow – I guess this glitter-bombing had the intended effect, if it was meant to begin to expose all the transphobia within the gay community. Let’s distance ourselves from the trans community because we’re all so “normal” and not “freaks” like them, right? Yeah, go ask the rest of America about that one.

      Part of the reason that we have a connection with the trans community is because homophobia has always been about violating gender roles. As men, we’re not supposed to like things up our butts, for one – and especially not other men’s penises. You can try to butch up all you want guys, but if you’re having gay sex, most of the rest of the world will never really see you as truly “masculine”. The most fem among us are generally the most targeted, even within our own community. And if you’re trans – well forget it….

      I think we have to stop being such cowards and stick up for the rights of everyone to do what they want with their bodies, to express themselves physically in whatever way feels most right. That’s the common ground we have with the trans movement, and with each other (not to mention feminism… which I’m sure plenty of guys on here hate as well…)

      Nov 3, 2011 at 11:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @Tim: You say “A queer house divided can not stand, friends.”

      That is so true and we need to remember it is Dan Savage that is being perceived as the divider.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 11:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tom in Lazybrook
      Tom in Lazybrook

      @ewe: No you are ewe. You don’t own us. We, just like you, support our agenda first. We all have priorities. Every letter in the LGBTQIA has their own priorities. You don’t get a veto.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 12:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tom in Lazybrook
      Tom in Lazybrook

      @Chris: Why is the Trans community upset with HRC? You get to veto everything they do. Even if it means killing ENDA because TENDA couldn’t have passed.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 12:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike in Asheville
      Mike in Asheville

      @JM: Back to Logic 101 for you: …if some…therefore not…

      That is completely illogical and shows how far off you are in understanding Renee’s point.

      7 billion living on this planet now, all genetically matched to 99+%. Yet some are born blind while other will have 20/20 their whole life; some born deaf, others with perfect pitch; most people are right-handed, some left, and a few both — why is it so hard to believe that in the chemistry and wiring of trillion upon trillion of DNA/RNA links to trillion upon trillion hormone links, that there are some people who are of a mix of gender identities that are not strictly male or female?

      Nov 3, 2011 at 12:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aiden
      Aiden

      @Riker: Sounds like your generalizing, I know plenty of feminist including myself who are for those things.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @Tom in Lazybrook: What’s this “we” you are talking about? I will not cater to your mulitiple personality disorder. You speak for only yourself sweety. Curb your ego.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      The issue we are discussing is Dan Savage. Transgendered people are already in and have been for quite sometime included in LGBT. Stay on topic.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      @Tom in Lazybrook: you say “Unfortunately, there are those in the Trans community that feel that they should block any progress unless we stop all progress in any area unless they get what they want first.”

      Equality is not for your enjoyment alone Tom.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      No one would have a problem with a white lesbian woman telling a black straight man that he is not welcome speaking for her. Dan Savage is not qualified to be speaking for transgendered people. Get over it.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 1:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      whatever people’s issues with him, it doesn’t exactly negate that fact that when it comes to a great many gay and queer related issues and question he’s right on the money.

      we all fuck up, we all slip up, we all shoot ourselves in the foot.

      but check this out – THIS is why Savage is respected and indeed needed. it’s a perfect response to an oft-asked question:

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.com/2011/10/savage-honesty.html

      Nov 3, 2011 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • shaed
      shaed

      @Joetx:
      Yeah. I believe he promised to consume his undergarments if wrong, so I can see why he would want to bury the fact that he was bullshitting about prop *.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • matt
      matt

      ^^We all fuck up … but Dan Savage fucks up and then defends his fuckup and encourages everyone to also fuck up.

      It’s one thing to apologize and do better, then you can be quickly forgiven. It’s another thing to frame the people you just slandered as the ones with a problem.

      Come on dude, you know better than that. You can still like Dan Savage on a whole but he’s dead wrong on trans issues and his popularity within the LGBT community makes it especially troubling. Trans people have every right to be angry and try to correct that.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 3:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteveyC
      SteveyC

      “He’s a racist and misogynist and a rape-apologist”

      Even if true,white genocide supporters are far worse people:

      Africans,Asia for the Asians,white countries for EVERYBODY!

      Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

      The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

      Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

      What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

      How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

      And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

      But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives alike say that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

      They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

      Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteveyC
      SteveyC

      “He’s a racist and misogynist and a rape-apologist”

      Even if true,the white genocide supporters are far worse people:

      Africans,Asia for the Asians,white countries for EVERYBODY!

      Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

      The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

      Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

      What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

      How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

      And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

      But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives alike say that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

      They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

      Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 4:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • amo
      amo

      Some people are using this comments section to criticise trans activism across the board. I think if:

      >”Expecting bisexual activists and organizers to minimize bisexual issues and to prioritize the visibility of lesbian and/or gay issue” and
      >”Feeling that bisexual people are too outspoken and pushy about their visibility and
      rights”

      are biphobia (and I think they are) then I think that’s transphobia.

      Source for the quotes: http://www.utexas.edu/diversity/ddce/gsc/downloads/resources/Bisexuality_Biphobia.pdf

      Nov 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joetx
      Joetx

      @JayKay:

      Yes, since white males are so underrepresented in government & as executive officers in Fortune 500 companies. *rolls eyes*

      I know every group has their bad apples, but you’re too good (or bad, rather) to be true. You’re a plant, right?

      If you are indeed an oppressed (gay?) white male, would you post a pic of yourself so I know who I should be laughing at when I read your ignorant, hate-filled posts?

      Nov 3, 2011 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @the gay community:

      People will be even happier when you own up to your latent cissexism.

      Nov 3, 2011 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      He had it coming, I don’t feel bad for him.

      He’s like the gay white male version of Fred Phelphs or like the Marcus “Ladybird” Bachmann since even though he’s supposedly some so called “expert” on human sexuality, and a gay man who should know better and not be biphobic or Transphobic, he is a bigot who refuses to learn or admit when he’s wrong.

      Savage clearly doesn’t understand Transgendered/intersex people, bisexuals, and he doesn’t seem to understand how there are people who are asexual and don’t have any sex drive, desire for sex or sexual attraction to anyone at all.

      He’s been biphobic and transphobic for decades, does not speak for anyone but himself and isn’t a spokesperson for the GLBT community, or even just gay men since there are a lot of gay men I know and who I’m friends with who don’t like him.

      He also should not be the spokesperson for anything having to do with GLBT youth or anti-bullying since he himself is nothing but a bully.

      Savage has been dead wrong on bisexuality and bisexual issues and his popularity within the LGBT community makes it especially troubling. Bisexual people have every right to be angry and try to correct that.

      Savage has been VERY biphobic and practiced bisexual erasure for decades. Watch the documentary “Bi the way” about bisexuality, where he says how bisexual men don’t exist.

      I remember being a bisexual teenager, reading his “advice” column and thinking “Screw this asshole, he doesn’t know shit about bisexuality, or human sexuality.”

      I didn’t have doubts about my sexuality but I know more than a few bisexuals who have and Trans people who had doubts about being Trans at first. Reading in a supposed “advice” column that they’re just really confused about their sexuality and are really gay or straight, or confused about their gender and not Trans at all is not helpful towards anyone of any age who is bisexual or trans.

      Years later when I became active and out into BDSM, kink, and various fetishes I have I noticed how Savage in his advice column advises people who are into BDSM, certain kinks, or fetishes, and even total power exchange relationships to keep it all a secret from their friends and family. No thanks Dan. I don’t tell my family intimate details but when my friends and family come to visit they’ve seen my books about BDSM, and my whips and bondage equipment and this was a chance to educate them about BDSM.

      Nov 4, 2011 at 3:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Phil
      Phil

      SteveyC you’re dumb and your arguments are dumb and your bigotry is dumb. Genocide is not when a race stops existing. It’s when you murder all of a group of people based on specific innate traits like, I dunno, hair color.

      Nobody proposes we murder all the white people. Nobody says that all countries should accept all immigrants except for whites. Your push for racial purity is racism in its purist form. It is the belief that people are not simply humans, but distinct races that should be separate and distinct. If everybody interbred with everybody else, we’d have a stronger gene pool and it’d be harder to discriminate on the basis of race. I don’t see the problem with that. (Too bad people are too petty to ever really let go of race. “You’re only 1/64th German and 1/32 Irish. I’m 1/16 Welsh so back of the bus to ye.)

      I’m anti-racist. The fact that you’re a white racist is secondary to the fact that you’re a racist. You giant, jew-killing, nazi jerk. White people, if they are even a thing, are already a global minority. I can not wait for the day that they are no longer the economic power-houses that they are today as well, if only to see you sputtering in impotent hate.

      Nov 4, 2011 at 4:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Drew
      Drew

      I’ve never met Dan, so I can only make an assumption about him from the videos/inteviews that I’ve watched…He seems to be fighting for the “A-list” gays of America. I understand that you have to be on TV & do tons of interviews to get the word out, but he seems like he’s turning into the “entitled” poster-boy for gay rights. We’re not all Dan Savages…we don’t have big money to back up our causes, supportive families to back us, or television star-power. I’d like to see someone new take up the fight, someone that the average middle-class American gay man can relate to. Keep up the good work Dan, but we can’t all be like you (and Dan, just how many trips have you taken to Paris lately?)

      Nov 4, 2011 at 9:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will
      Will

      Drew brings up another issue with Dan Savage that I have. Yes he’s A-Gay or what I jokingly call Professional Gay.

      He lives in a McMansion with his husband and kid, and thinks that everyone that’s GLBT wants this or should strive for a husband, McMansion, and adopted kid.

      He’s a media whore, and a total narcissistic conceited asshole. I remember reading on a blog about how he said how he’s the only spokesperson for gay men and GLBT people in America.

      Dan Savage does not speak for me and I don’t want a gay man who is bigoted towards African Americans, bisexuals, and Trans people speaking for me or representing me when it comes time to have a gay man on TV or speak about issues that effect everyone that’s GLBT in the United States.

      Nov 4, 2011 at 3:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      So, Will, what are you specifically doing to raise your voice and visibly to match Dan Savage’s?

      He can’t ‘represent you’ if you’re representing yourself. So, ARE you representing yourself? How about you send us the link to your own page, or blog, so we can all learn from your example?

      “I remember reading on a blog about how he said how he’s the only spokesperson for gay men and GLBT people in America.”

      Citation, please? I’ve never seen that and I’d be curious to read it.

      But truly, what are you proactively and specifically doing in order to better represent yourself?

      I hear a lot of you complaining about Savage on this website, yet none of you seem to have any specific plans of action for “better representation” – what are YOU doing to represent yourselves?

      Nov 4, 2011 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The wizard
      The wizard

      @SteveyC: Here you go: http://www.stormfront.org

      Nov 4, 2011 at 3:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will
      Will

      Here you go Kiwi, a quote from the hypocrite himself.

      “Some people will say to me, ‘Who made you spokesperson?’ You know what? Nobody. I’m a spokesperson by default.” – Dan Savage, who says he’s “appalled” with his role as the go-to gay on television news.

      Nov 4, 2011 at 6:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Craig
      Craig

      Puhlease! Transphobic, biphobic, woman hating racist that has exploited LGBTs for his own pocketbook calling someone else a scumbag grifter? Hypocrisy, thy name is Miss Dan Savage. *spits*

      Meanwhile Savage is a media whore, A-list gay and lives in a McMansion in suburban Seattle with his husband and kid and thinks that everyone that’s GLBT in America wants a McMansion in the suburbs and an adopted kid.

      Protecting Dan Savage is a mistake, his records speak for themselves and taint any advocates that attempt to defend his abhorrent behavior. *snaps*

      He had the glitter bomb coming and I don’t feel bad for him.

      He’s the gay male version of Fred Phelps or Michelle and Marcus Bachmann when it comes to how he’s very transphobic, racist, and biphobic and has been for decades.

      On Dan Savage, I certainly don’t want him representing gay men or all GLBT people. Who the fuck appointed him? He does not speak for me as a gay man or as a GLBT person.

      If he wishes to be a media whore, he should represent himself under the Dan Savage banner, not the gay rights/GLBT rights banner, and as biphobic and transphobic as he is he should be the last person running any sort of project against bullying for GLBT youth all while he tells actual bisexual youth/teens and young adults that they’re not really bisexual and that they’re going to eventually come out as gay/lesbian. He also completely supported the studies by that asshole Dr. J. Michael Bailey who is transphobic, homophobic, and biphobic.
      Dan Savage does not care about GLBT youth and he and his husband only started the “It gets better” project to self promote, and get a reality TV show on MTV. If you actually think that Savage cares about anyone but himself you haven’t been paying attention.

      Dan has not evolved when it comes to how he’s Transphobic, biphobic, and racist. In his own mind he can do no wrong and he’s always correct. He’s still just as transphobic and biphobic, and if I want an actual expert on human sexuality I’m not going to go to an ex drag queen with a Drama degree that’s a conceited asshole who does not understand human sexuality and makes no attempts to actually learn about bisexuality, or trans/intersex issues, or change from being a bigot like he always has been ever since he started his “advice” colum as a joke.

      The man completely supported the 2nd Iraq war! What a tool!

      Nov 4, 2011 at 6:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HArold Osler
      HArold Osler

      As usual a bunch of whiners who throw accusations around–He’s racist–phobic this and that–he has a nice house and can take nice vacations–and end up sounding like a bunch of fifth graders.. Still haven’t seen any facts to back up their accusations but in this didgital age all you need is to accuse.

      Nov 4, 2011 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Harold Osler
      Harold Osler

      @Drew:

      That whole trip to Paris thing is one of the stupidest complaints yet. So he went to Paris–BFD!! I’ve been to Madrid and I’m not upper or even middle class. If you can’t get your stupid act together to travel don’t be whining about those who can. But then you’d actually have to do something to get to Paris–it’s much easier to denigrate those who do.

      Why did that moron glitterer run off anyway? Should have stayed and had the courage of their convictions–but then they would have had to back up the statements.

      Nov 4, 2011 at 10:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bee
      Bee

      I have not seen Savage’s comments on trans people, so I can’t judge if he’s transphobic, but the accusations of biphobia from butt hurt bis who enjoy being victims(whaaaa, the gays hate us, the heteros hate us) are flimsy.

      Nov 5, 2011 at 3:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      “Here you go Kiwi, a quote from the hypocrite himself.
      “Some people will say to me, ‘Who made you spokesperson?’ You know what? Nobody. I’m a spokesperson by default.” – Dan Savage, who says he’s “appalled” with his role as the go-to gay on television news”

      That doesn’t prove me wrong, it proves me right. he IS a spokesperson by default. if you want a new spokesperson then get off your ass, step out of your Anonymous Online CLoset and start speaking up.

      He’s not stopping the rest of you from being just as visible and vocal – you’re choosing not to be.

      thanks for proving me right.

      Nov 5, 2011 at 3:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Will
      Will

      Kiwi nobody is proving you right, I have been out for decades, and I’m very visible and vocal.

      I’m not a media whore like Dan Savage is, and I don’t claim to be a spokesperson for all GLBT people or all gay men like Savage so foolishly does when he’s not any of these things.

      Nov 5, 2011 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Craig
      Craig

      Harol Eldergay-If you want proof about Savage’s biphobia look here. Do your own research, as it’s very easy to find examples of how Dan is very biphobic, practices bisexual erasure, and is transphobic too.

      http://www.afterelton.com/oysters-04-28-2011-dan-savage-biphobic

      Even just recently he said how bisexual teens and young adults who are under 36 are not actually bisexual but will eventually come out as gay or lesbian.

      My problem with Dan, and what he reasserts even in this piece, is that he is totally comfortable dismissing a person’s self-identity in favor of his own opinions. That’s something he has no right to do. It’s asinine and a total abuse of his station as a respected public figure. I should not have had to wait until now to get his stamp of approval on my orientation–that is, after having been in both het and gay relationships. At 18, when according to him you can know you are gay or straight but not bi, bisexuals should have been able to say I am bi and he should have accepted it. Why do bis have to “prove” or validate their feelings to Dan? Who the fuck does he think he is?

      Until Dan stops the martyr routine about how he is so picked on by the bi community and how he has never been wrong on this issue and people need to just accept his words as infallible, I won’t accept him as an activist. I’m sorry. He is a shock writer and a humorist and if he can’t be more responsible, then he should leave it at that. Because I do really worry about the impact he has on bi and trans youth.

      And finally, what I find the most peculiar is that for all the defending of Dan and the insistances he is being unfairly portrayed, I have yet to see a single quote from him that paints bisexuals and trans people in a positive light.

      As for the idea that Bisexuals and Trans people are professional victims, have you ever seen how many gay men and lesbians are quick to blame everything as homophobic including other gay men and lesbians who don’t agree with them.

      Nov 5, 2011 at 4:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jake
      Jake

      Dan Savage is and always has been a professional victim, he loves to talk shit about Trans people and bisexuals and then when people tell him he’s wrong he can’t take any sort of criticism or even admit “hey I was wrong.”

      Nov 5, 2011 at 6:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max the Communist
      Max the Communist

      I wonder if my comments are even needed, given the firestorm that is this thread. Oh, well . . .

      Why are Dan’s comments significant and why should various underclasses in the queer community get upset when they are his targets for snarky dismissal and insult? Isn’t the homo/bi/transphobia from our straight enemies much worse?

      Dan Savage has a huge straight following. The disinformation that Dan spreads about bisexual and transgender people through his column and public appearances simply reinforces their already existing distrust, fear, and hatred of them. Straight people both get to think of themselves as cool for having the openness to listen to a gay man talk about sex and they get to have their previous prejudices reinforced about bisexuals and trans folks. And, hey, Dan’s right about the B and T, right? Because he’s gay and gay people are experts on human sexuality and gender, right?

      Shouldn’t we be attacking our real enemies? When things that a public gay figure says about other queers reinforces the enemy’s positions against us, then who is the enemy?

      Nov 6, 2011 at 1:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Dan Savage isnt’ stopping anyone else from being a “spokesperson” – and if the complainers on here could provide the links to their own sites, blogs, even youtube channels than they’d have an ounce of credibility to their “criticisms.”

      As is, it seems to be your typical bunch of knee-jerk reactionary whiny losers who bitch about Dan Savage and yet don’t do a damned thing to be as visible and vocal in their own lives.

      typical. complain from a place of online anonymity.

      the quote you think indicts Savage, Will, actually doesn’t. it couldn’t be more clear, at least to those of us with functioning brains. he is a spokesperson by default – he’s speaking out while the rest of you are complaining with one foot in the proverbial closet. you can’t complain that someone is speaking louder than you, you raise your own damned voice and increase your own visibility.

      or STFU.

      Nov 6, 2011 at 1:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeff
      Jeff

      Well said Max, Dan is one of our enemies and yeah he is just as bad as people like Rev. Fred Phelps and others.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 12:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Damon
      Damon

      Kiwi is a closet queen and loves to talk shit about people on queerty which just shows how he’s a hypocrite and he’s not for GLBT rights at all and while he’s a gay man he does not like his fellow GLBT people just like Dan Savage.

      Let’s be real here, the fellow GLBT people who Kiwi loves to flame are out and have been out but according to closet queen Kiwi they’re somehow not out.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 12:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Everyone else on queerty
      Everyone else on queerty

      The only loser here is Kiwi who is nothing but a troll who flames people, talks out of his ass, posts on pretty much every topic here, and is a knowitall who isn’t nearly as intelligent as he thinks or wishes he was.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 12:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Deluno
      Deluno

      He knows that “transphobia”, like “homophobia”, doesn’t just refer to fear. He’s just being a smarty pants, dodging responsibility for his statements.

      @Kamikapse:

      Also biphobic. He blurts out ignorance, divisive statements, and offensive assumptions, seemingly more out of thoughtlessness than deliberate malice, although that seeps through too. The LGBT community can do better.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bryan
      Bryan

      I seriously can’t take the people who think he’s on the same level as someone like Fred Phelps seriously at all. What an asinine opinion.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 9:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      agreed, Bryan.

      i don’t idolize him nor demonize him. sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t. those that can’t see the Good he’s done are hilariously sad.
      for example, this letter he responded to which is, in a word, PERFECT:

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.com/2011/10/savage-honesty.html

      perfectly written. i can’t think of a better answer. does Savage sometimes shoot himself in the foot then take said foot and stick it in his mouth? yes. doesn’t mean that when he’s right he’s not right, however.

      DAMON, you’re an interesting case. How am i a “Closet Queen”? My Queenliness couldn’t be on brighter display, gurrrrl ;-)
      i checked out YOUR blog, btw. “justbeautifulmen”, eh? why not call it what it really is – “JustWhiteGuys” – because that, apparently, is the only type of man you find beautiful: white guys with big muscles. that’s it, that’s all. so much for diversity, eh?

      you might be curious to read some of the work i’ve been doing in addressing racial prejudice and “preference” in our communities.
      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.com/2011/10/work.html

      or here for some work on supporting our brothers and sisters in the trans community.
      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.com/2011/03/support-for-trans-community.html

      but hey, i guess my blog isn’t as impressive of yours. i’d be doing more good if if was more like you and collected pictures of straight white guys for others to masturbate to, apparently. ;-)

      Nov 7, 2011 at 9:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      here’s what i find neat – all the guys who have hated the “glitterbombings” suddenly LIKE them when it happens to Dan Savage. yeah. neat. you didn’t like it, you thought it was stupid, but you like when it happens to Savage. Ok, honeys ;-)

      Savage doesnt’ represent me. I represent myself. Want a new “spokesperson”? Raise your own damn voice. You can’t complain that someone else is misrepresenting you if you don’t have the drive to stand up to be counted and represent yourself.

      Hating Dan Savage won’t bring about Equality. What will bring about Equality will be you folks raising your voices, and increasing your own Visibility as not only LGBT people but advocates for Equality. SO DO IT.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 10:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BiTranswoman
      BiTranswoman

      Bryan and Kiwi are you congratulating Dan Savage for talking about trans people, bisexuals of both genders, and black people in the same way a Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter would?

      What good has Savage done? Someone else wrote about how he’s no better than Perez Hilton and it’s true. He can self promote and shout “It gets better!” from the rooftops but this doesn’t erase how he does not like bisexual men and women, and Trans people.

      I’m trans and I happen to be bisexual, and Savage has said for decades that I don’t exist and then straight people, and gay men who read his column or listen to him in the media actually believe him and take what he says seriously.

      This is nothing but bullying, bigotry, and the ultimate hypocrisy from someone who should supposedly know better and not be nearly this bigoted and ignorant.

      I agree with Deluno, yes we as GLBT people can do a lot better than the hypocritical, bigoted, transphobic, racist, and biphobic Dan Savage.

      Nov 7, 2011 at 11:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Not remotely, BiT – i’m stating, over and over again, that if you want to be better represented then represent yourselves.

      people keep saying “we can do better than Dan Savage”. well, if that’s true then ‘do better’ already.

      if you think he hasn’t done any good then you’re blinded by your own chosen anger against him. for instance, you just said “Savage has said for decades that I don’t exist”

      that’s factually incorrect. Savage has stated, again and again, that not only does he believe in bisexuality, and acknowledge its existence, but (and this is a direct quote from him) “I love bisexual people so much, I wish there were more of them.”

      Savage, like myself and many others, simply acknowledge a certain sociological reality – that a great many gay people, particularly gay males, falsely co-opt the Bi label before they’re able to admit to others, and themselves, that they are in fact GAY. Gay = BAD, Bi = Not Totally Gay, Therefore Not As Bad, and we get newbies claiming to be Bi first, as their toe-dip into new waters. There’s a reason most Bi guys on online sites are under 25, not Out, obsessed with faux-macho posturing, and often members of conservative religious/political affiliations.

      this is reality. it does not mean bisexuality does not exist, it simply means that many gay people claim to be bi before they’re able to admit to actually being gay.

      there.

      but hey, don’t take it from me – take it from the man himself: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/bisexuals/Content?oid=8743322

      all this “Dan Savage is BI-Phobic!” stuff is NONSENSE – he’s trying to help you bisexuals, if you’d calm down to realize it. when our culture is no longer so pathetically anti-gay we’re going to have less gay people falsely claiming to be bi, thus fewer people making it seem like Bisexuality is a transitory phase toward homosexuality.

      i mean come on.

      as for the trans issue, i think more trans people should be truly reaching out to Savage if, as it seems, you don’t buy his explanations or apologies. He’s CLEARLY on our side, folks. He’s listened to by millions. He’ll listen to you. SO, what’s the next plan of action?

      It’s just so obvious that so many just want to have someone to hate. So they picked Dan Savage. Great. What a useless war to wage.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 12:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sam
      Sam

      @ewe: Each week while sitting in the cafe i read his rude vile responses

      If you don’t like his columns, STOP READING THEM. If you think you can do better, WRITE YOUR OWN.

      FFS.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 1:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chad
      Chad

      My weigh in? Good; it’s about time he’s held accountable for his actions and mouth. I’ve never been a Savage fan, especially considering his cliched rhetoric of a dirty mouth, saying outrageous things in the name of getting attention and the mounting evidence that proves IGB (it gets better) is equally about salvaging his image, self promotion, and getting an MTV reality TV show as much as it’s about LGBT teens. The final straw for me came long ago when I found that the the NPO that It Gets Better runs as a DBA under – IOLA Foundation is also run by his MTV show producer Brian Pine. Nice coincidence that the man putting you in front of a larger national audience is also the one that’s handily got an approved NPO laying around that you can change to a DBA for It Gets Better. Sooner or later their 990 forms will be available, and I’ll be looking for them.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 4:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Buck
      Buck

      Kiwi you should do some actual research and read about how Dan Savage has been frequently
      biphobic and transphobic in the past, and still continues to be biphobic and transphobic.

      If you want to worship him and pretend that he’s only done good things and has never been
      transphobic or biphobic, you’re only revising and ignoring the bad parts about him of which
      there are many.

      It’s not surprising how the people who worship him are going to defend him and claim that he’s
      not bigoted at all, and that he’s not biphobic or transphobic when he is, and the same people
      also ignore his racist rant that blamed the passing of Prop 8 in the state of CA on black
      voters.

      Dan has called women like me “Trannies”, “Chicks with dicks”, and “Shemales” which are all akin
      to calling a black person the n-word. He’s called Transmen “Guys with pies” and claimed that a
      politician he did not like is FTM when the politician is a cisgender man. He even advised a
      Transwoman who has a child living with her and who is just starting to transition to completely
      stop transitioning and just wait until the young child is an adult and living away from home!

      Dan can shout “It gets better” from the rooftops but when bisexual and trans people see how
      he’s biphobic and transphobic and has been all along, it’s nothing but hypocrisy and bullying
      from him-and the fact that he still does not believe in bisexual teens or young adults is
      hypocritical and troubling.

      Bisexual invisibility is not specifically related to the fact that people don’t know any

      bisexuals. If Dan had spent more than a couple of minutes looking into what bisexual

      invisibility actually refers to, and actually apologized for being biphobic and practicing

      bisexual erasure for decades then perhaps I’d be more convinced that he somehow is not

      biphobic.

      Bi-invisibility refers to disregarding the clear evidence that bisexual people exist, that

      bisexuality is a marked orientation that can be lifelong and stable and exists outside the

      reputed hetero-/homosexual binary, and that despite misconceptions to the contrary bisexuals do

      regularly and fervently contribute to LGBT efforts and to their wider communities.

      Dan Savage completely supported the study that claimed that bisexuality does not exist in men

      at all. Watch the documentary “Bi the way” where he says this on camera, and yes this is

      biphobia and bisexual erasure. It’s just as hypocritical as Conservative politicians and

      religious figures who say that men and women can’t be gay or lesbian at all.

      Why is Dan so dismissive of bisexuals and bisexual issues?

      It sounds like to me that in Dan Savage’s utopia, bisexuals really should be branded with a

      Scarlet B so gays and lesbians can avoid us like lepers. Take a look at the advice he gives

      this person with a bisexual girlfriend in February 2009.

      Questioner: I’m a lesbian, and my girlfriend is bisexual and wants to have a three-way with

      a man. This makes me nervous. What should I do?
      DAN: Get yourself a refillable Xanax prescription, or get yourself an actual lesbian

      girlfriend.

      Dan seems to believe in bisexuals in the same way an 8-year-old believes in Santa Claus. That

      is, he doesn’t really believe in them but it makes people happy to think he believes, so he

      says the words when he’s really highly biphobic.

      Case in point, he has said that he identified as bisexual when he was sixteen and it is his

      belief that many gays and lesbians do the same only because they are not ready to come out. He

      uses this fact as further reasoning that most anyone else claiming to be bisexual before they

      are 30 is probably either confused or just a closet case.

      In the 2008 documentary, Bi the Way, Dan said “I meet someone who’s 19-years-old who tells me

      he’s bisexual and I’m like, ‘Yeah, right, I doubt it. I tell them come back when you’re like 29

      and we’ll see.'”

      Just recently in 2011 Dan acted all butthurt and blamed those horrible bisexual activists in a

      column and then said this: “But I do know that a bi-identified 36-year-old is likelier to be

      bisexual than a bi-identified 16-year-old”.

      Really? So just based on age you’re more likely to believe someone’s self identified sexual

      orientation. What if that 36 year old man identified as gay yesterday and realized he’s

      bisexual today? Are you still going to believe him? I don’t care how much you resent having

      to allow a teenager or anyone else the right to self identify, but that’s just tough. Get over

      it and stop pretending to be the sexual identity gatekeeper.

      Dan is also ignoring the fact that many bisexuals either first come out as gay or lesbian, or

      do identify as gay or lesbian sometimes for years and decades before realizing that they’re

      bisexual.

      I don’t care how many gay and lesbian people transitioned through claiming that they’re

      bisexual in order to let friends/family/whatever down easy. This does not give you or anyone

      else the right to question the professed sexual identities of anyone, especially teenagers. As

      the founder of the whole “It Gets Better” project, professing doubt over the identity of a

      teenager or even young adult is horrid. Telling someone that you’re not convinced that they

      are actually bisexual is biphobic. Just because you and some other people you know may have
      used that term to let people down gently before announcing that you were gay, does not mean
      that the teenagers of today are doing the same thing. Times change, people change, society
      changes.

      I’d argue that it is far more acceptable for teenagers and young adults today and for
      the past 10 years to out themselves as gay or lesbian over bisexual.
      Dan has actually advised gay men and lesbian women not to date, get involved in relationships,
      or have anything to do with bisexuals.

      Meanwhile Dan is a professional victim and acts as though us bisexual and trans activists are
      somehow persecuting him when we call him out on his transphobic and biphobia, but he wishes
      that we’d remain invisible.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 4:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sam
      Sam [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Dan can shout “It gets better” from the rooftops but when bisexual and trans people see how he’s biphobic and transphobic and has been all along and still is, it’s nothing but hypocrisy and bullying from him-and the fact that he still does not believe in bisexual teens or young adults is hypocritical and troubling.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 6:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sam
      Sam [Different person #1 using similar name]

      I don’t care how many gay and lesbian people transitioned through claiming that they’re bisexual in order to let friends/family/whatever down easy. This does not give you or anyone else the right to question the professed sexual identities of anyone, especially teenagers. As the founder of the whole “It Gets Better” project, professing doubt over the identity of a teenager or even young adult is horrid. Telling someone that you’re not convinced that they are actually bisexual is biphobic. Just because you and some other people you know may have used that term to let people down gently before announcing that you were gay, does not mean that the teenagers of today are doing the same thing. Times change, people change, society changes. I’d argue that it is far more acceptable for teenagers and young adults today and for the past 10 years to out themselves as gay or lesbian over bisexual.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 6:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Actually, Sam, those of us who acknowledge the reality that many young folks claim to be Bi before they admit to being gay NEED to talk about it, because it’s indicative of just what homophobia in culture does to too many.

      Your complaining is officially useless. I’ve been doing LGBT family outreach for more than a decade, and I can tell you that there are so many parents who express “relief” that their child is Bi, not gay, and THIS is why the child says they’re bi. They falsely co-opt the bi identity that is not theirs as a way to “get people used” to the idea of not being straight. We explain to parents that while their child may indeed be bisexual, that doesn’t mean that they’re “part straight” and their acceptance of their child should not hinge on the “hope” that one day their bisexuality will mean they’ll take an opposite-sex partner one day. We remind them – even if that’s the case, they’ll still have attractions to members of the same sex. And we let them know that a great many young people claim to be bi in order to get the response that those parents end up giving – which is “relief” that the child isn’t GAY.

      You say it’s horrid to express “doubt”? I say it’s horrid to ignore a well known and acknowledged sociological reality. Bisexuality would not be seen as a transient phase if so many gay people weren’t falsely co-opting the bi label before being able to admit to being gay. You’re criticizing Dan Savage for pointing out this all-too-prevalent reality? Then you’ve picked the wrong battle for the wrong reason.

      It’s not “bi-phobic” of Dan Savage, nor the rest of us, to point out that many gay people falsely co-opt the bi label due to their fear of how they’ll be treated for being GAY. eliminate that fear of being gay, and you’ll eliminate the numbers of non-bi people who claim to be bi, and then bisexuality will no longer be seen as a non-existent ‘phase’.

      but the more you guys keep screaming “dan savage is biphobic!” the more you make it look like you either have a deep-seated grudge against Dan, or you simply have mediocre reading comprehension skills.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      every time someone says “dan savage doesn’t believe in bisexuality” that person proves that they’re as ignorant as your average NOM imbecile. Dan Savage pointing out that too many gay people falsely claim to be bisexual before being able to admit to being gay doesn’t mean that he doesn’t believe in bisexuality. He’s talked about the legitimacy of bisexuality a LOT and anyone who continues to ignore this reveals that their own chosen biases are blocking their acceptance of factual reality.

      ” Just because you and some other people you know may have used that term to let people down gently before announcing that you were gay, does not mean that the teenagers of today are doing the same thing.”

      No, the fact that teenagers today are still saying it means that the teenagers of today are doing the same thing. I still do LGBT outreach. Clearly you don’t. I know what I’m talking about.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 2:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @Little Kiwi: Dan Savage isn’t biphobic, at least not to my knowledge. The phenomenon you speak of is the very reason that, for quite some time(and I hate to admit this), I did treat dating bisexual women a whole lot different from dating women who identified exclusively homosexual.

      Now, the transphobia? Yeah, I have a problem with that, and I surely hope he works on it, if, indeed, he is still slinging that stuff around. It’s offensive, divisive, and counterproductive.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      exactly shannon. we see it all the time – it still exists. the kid says he’s bi, the parents are relieved that he’s not GAY, the kid eventually comes out as gay, and for some reason people think it’s Dan Savage’s fault for pointing this reality out. it makes no sense.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 3:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      I should add: this phenomenon made me think, no matter how ignorant I was on the subject, that bisexuality meant that someone was confused, and therefore not as highly evolved or self actualized in her identity as I was. Of course this is untrue.

      The bottom line is, derogatory ideas and statements coming from anyone in this community need to stop. That goes for Dan Savage and anyone else. I do not believe him to be biphobic, only stating facts. Jury is still out on whether or not he is a transphobe or not.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @Little Kiwi: Yup, we have to get rid of people being afraid to come out as homosexual. Somehow, bisexual seems “easier” or “a softer blow.” While this might be true for bigoted families, it is untrue of that kid, because they are still lying. If they are really bi, great. If they are lying to soften the blow? That means we just have far too much work to do.

      As for Dan, once again, I think he is a good voice/advocate for overall equality. People who feel the need to bash anyone doing more than they are need to speak louder or find a way to get involved themselves.

      I admit to being very sensitive to anything surrounding gender issues, and no, I don’t like a lot of things he has said. At all. But not agreeing with every word coming out of the man’s mouth doesn’t mean I hate him or wish he would go away. Goodness knows he’s done a lot more than I have.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 3:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      Dan Savage has not “evolved” when it comes to bisexuality. Just recently he wrote abut how bisexual teens and young adults are going to eventually come out as gay/lesbian.

      He also completely and happily supported the 2005 Bailey study that claimed that bisexual men don’t exist. He can claim all he wants that he’s LMAO “evolved” but he’s lying when he writes about how bisexual teens and young adults under 36 are not bisexual and will eventually come out as gay/lesbian.

      He’s also made a career out of completely bashing bisexual people, giving out false information about us bisexuals and trans people, and practicing bisexual erasure and biphobia.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max
      Max

      If you seriously think Dan Savage is trying to make the world a better place for anybody but himself, you ain’t qualified to judge anybody’s actions or words.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 5:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max
      Max

      If you want to worship Savage and pretend that he’s only done good things and has never been transphobic or biphobic, you’re only revising and ignoring the bad parts about him of which there are many including transphobia, biphobia, and racism.

      It’s not surprising how the people who worship him are going to defend him and claim that he’s not bigoted at all, and that he’s not biphobic or transphobic when he is, and the same people also ignore his racist rant that blamed the passing of Prop 8 in the state of CA on black voters.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jim
      Jim

      Bisexual invisibility is not specifically related to the fact that people don’t know any bisexuals. If Dan had spent more than a couple of minutes looking into what bisexual invisibility actually refers to, and actually apologized for being biphobic and practicing bisexual erasure for decades then perhaps I’d be more convinced that he somehow is not biphobic.

      Bi-invisibility refers to disregarding the clear evidence that bisexual people exist, that bisexuality is a marked orientation that can be lifelong and stable and exists outside the reputed hetero-/homosexual binary, and that despite misconceptions to the contrary bisexuals do regularly and fervently contribute to LGBT efforts and to their wider communities.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sam
      Sam [Different person #2 using similar name]

      Really? So just based on age you’re more likely to believe someone’s self identified sexual orientation. What if that 36 year old man identified as gay yesterday and realized he’s bisexual today? Are you still going to believe him? I don’t care how much you resent having to allow a teenager or anyone else the right to self identify, but that’s just tough. Get over it and stop pretending to be the sexual identity gatekeeper.

      Dan is also ignoring the fact that many bisexuals either first come out as gay or lesbian, or do identify as gay or lesbian sometimes for years and decades before realizing that they’re bisexual.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 6:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BiWoman
      BiWoman

      Dan has actually advised gay men and lesbian women not to date, get involved in relationships, or have anything to do with bisexuals, trans people, and HIV+ people.

      Meanwhile Dan is a professional victim and acts as though us bisexual and trans activists are somehow persecuting him when we call him out on his transphobia, pozphobia, and biphobia, but he wishes that we’d remain invisible.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill
      Bill

      Dan Savage completely supported the study that claimed that bisexuality does not exist in men at all and he’s been very biphobic over the decades and still is. Watch the documentary “Bi the way” where he says this on camera, and yes this is biphobia and bisexual erasure. It’s just as hypocritical as Conservative politicians and religious figures who say that men and women can’t be gay or lesbian at all.

      Nov 8, 2011 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Graeme
      Graeme

      The fact that Kiwi is somehow allowed to work with GLBT teens or youth is creepy and disturbing. I agree that it’s far easier for a teen or young adult to come out as gay than it is for them to come out as bisexual, and tell the large number of bisexual teens, young adults, and adults who came out as bisexual and were kicked out of home and disowned by their parent(s) that they somehow had it easier than gay men and lesbian women.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 3:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Roland
      Roland

      Too bad Savage is so biphobic and transphobic. I wonder when the homosexist members of the LGBT movement will finally acknowledge that bisexuals and bisexuality, and trans people exist, that our sexuality and gender is as legitimate as theirs. and that the civil and human rights gains that have been made for LGBT people would not have been made without the involvement, commitment, hard work and sacrifice of bisexuals and trans people. Dan Savage’s bigotry sickens and saddens me. To know that he now has a larger platform from which to broadcast that bigotry is troubling. For bisexuals and trans people, it doesn’t get better with Dan Savage around.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @Roland:

      Careful anytime someone disagrees with the God that is Savage you will be attacked thats how it works on this site. :) I agree also if Dan Savage wants to claim it gets better then he should not be as biased as he is.If he actually does have something against transexuals and bisexuals not sure myself then someone else should be saying it gets better.Otherwise he is only referring to certain groups not all of them.It’s not called LGBT for nothing.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      “…..Just recently he wrote abut how bisexual teens and young adults are going to eventually come out as gay/lesbian.”

      citations, please? i’m serious. all i’ve ever read from Savage on the matter of bisexuality that seems even close to what you’re accusing him of is his simple addressing of a factual sociological reality – that a great many gay people falsely co-opt the bisexual label before they’re ready to admit to others, and themselves, that they are in fact gay.

      people keep saying “he hates bisexuals!” and yet can’t back it up. he believes in bisexuality. he also acknowledges that the reason people think bisexuality is a “transient phase” is because there are far too many gay people, particularly males, who falsely claim the Bi identity as their toe-dip into getting comfortable with actually being GAY.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 4:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      @Graeme: You mean you have citational evidence that parents kicked their children out for being Bisexual but would not have kicked them out for being homosexual?

      i’d be very curious to read about these cases. bisexuality exists. it’s a legitimate orientation. Dan Savage acknowledges this, and indeed talks about this. A lot.

      And yet, still, people claim that he doesn’t believe in bisexuality. Why?

      It’s textbook – a great many young gay people claim to be Bi before they’re able to admit to being GAY. why? because gay = BAD and bi = not totally gay, therefore not as bad.

      for more than a decade i’ve seen parents express “relief” that their child is “bi” – their relief hinging on the hope that one day their child will choose an opposite-sex partner. we try to explain to the parents that even if their child DOES one day take an opposite-sex partner, it will not mean that their child is straight. Bi is not “gay and straight” – it is its own unique orientation. there will always be “attractions”, desires, connections.

      acceptance should not come from embracing the hope of a “perceived heterosexual element” to bisexuality, but from understand it and accepting it for the orientation that it is.

      that’s what we talk to parents about when they talk about a child who has come out as Bisexual, often while engaged in a same-gendered relationship.

      i’m stunned as to what, specifically, any of you would object to about that. but hey, if you think i’m doing such a lousy job you can do what i do – get involved with actual LGBT Outreach yourselves, instead of complaining from behind a computer screen.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 4:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      Kiwi, go to the article that you linked here’s a direct quote from it:
      “This can lead adult gays and lesbians—myself included—to doubt the professed sexual identities of bisexual teenagers.

      When I meet a bisexual teenage boy, for instance, I sometimes think to myself, “Yeah, I was too at your age.” That doesn’t mean the kid standing in front of me couldn’t possibly be bisexual (I wasn’t, he might be!), or that I don’t believe bisexuality exists (bisexuals exist, and most of them seem to have my e-mail address), only that my life experience makes it difficult for me to accept a bisexual teenage boy’s professed sexual identity at face value. I do know that a bi-identified 36-year-old is likelier to be bisexual than a bi-identified 16-year-old…”

      Nov 9, 2011 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      None of that, Marie, has anything to do with Dan Savage nor ME – it has everything to do with the reality that a great many young gay people falsely co-opt the bi label before they come out as gay.

      you know whom i believe to be real bisexuals? OUT bisexuals.

      when i see a young Bisexual, let’s say in an online profile, there are so many Great Indicators….
      1. Not Out
      2. obsessed with faux-macho posturing
      3. members of conservative religious/political affiliations
      4. use of the terms “str8-acting” or the word “masc” dropped every five words or so

      the red flags. i know many bisexuals. they’re Out. openly bisexual. no apologies nor distancing from the queer community.
      i’ve been doing LGBT Outreach for more than a decade – do it long enough and you see the patterns, signs, similarities.

      yeah. we often have the moment of “Oh, you’re still in *that* stage of accepting yourself….”

      and you know what? we’re almost always right. you want to make things better for bisexuals? work to erase the negative stigmas associated with being GAY and you’ll get fewer GAY people misrepresenting themselves as transient bisexuals.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 4:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      There are lots of other examples of Savage’s biphobia and bisexual erasure here: http://www.afterelton.com/oysters-04-28-2011-dan-savage-biphobic?page=0%2C0 he’s told gays and lesbians for decades not to get involved with us bisexuals, that bisexual men don’t exist completely supporting the biphobic study done, and as a Transgendered woman I take offense at how he does not consider me a woman and throws around terms like “Tranny”, “shemale”, and “chick with a dick” and other utter nonsense he claims as fact and truth.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      Savage’s biphobia and bisexual erasure has been very well documented and he’s been doing it for decades. Go to the oysters and snails after elton link that craig posted you’ll see it all there. He has told gays and lesbians not to get involved with us in relationships and even said how bisexual men don’t exist and that they’ll come out as gay men.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Marie, citations please. Time and Time Again, Savage has stated over and over and over about the reality of young gay people falsely claiming to BI, and thus misrepresenting bisexuals.

      and time and time again people like ignore this, and ignore the actual root of the problem, because you want to scream “Dan Savage says bisexuality doesn’t exist!” , which he’s never said.

      what do you want, Marie? seriously. clearly you dont’ want to change things, you just want to complain. wow. that’s useful.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      As a transgendered woman I take a lot of offense at how Savage treats trans people like shit and calls us “guys with pies/chicks with dicks”, “shemales”, and “trannies”. He also told a recently transitioning transwoman that has a kid that she should “Wait until the kid is an adult and out of the house to chop your dick off” assuming that trans people can just stop taking hormones and transitioning.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      Myself and other people have been directly quoting and citing Savage’s biphobia and Transphobia. Can you not read posts or go to links? Instead you’re ignoring all of this and pretending that Savage does not practice transphobia, biphobia, and bisexual erasure. Way to be totally ignorant and support a bigot.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Clearly you can’t practice intellectual discernment, Marie.

      the quote of his that you posted, that you seem to think condemns him, actually proves ME right and YOU wrong.

      but for some reason you can’t see it. way to pick the wrong battle for the wrong reasons.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      “When I meet a bisexual teenage boy, for instance, I sometimes think to myself, “Yeah, I was too at your age.” That doesn’t mean the kid standing in front of me couldn’t possibly be bisexual (I wasn’t, he might be!), or that I don’t believe bisexuality exists (bisexuals exist, and most of them seem to have my e-mail address), only that my life experience makes it difficult for me to accept a bisexual teenage boy’s professed sexual identity at face value. I do know that a bi-identified 36-year-old is likelier to be bisexual than a bi-identified 16-year-old…””

      that’s savage’s quote. can you intelligently explain to me how that quote is biphobic or in any way states that bisexuality does not exist? because that quote is a perfect example of the point that I have been making.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 5:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Larry
      Larry

      Kiwi, There’s not anything wrong with any of the the things you listed in 190.
      1. It’s someone’s personal choice to come out and when they should come out. If you’re on a GLBT sex or hook up and dating site then you’re not that closeted.
      2. Would you prefer them look like total twinks and your stereotypical femme or camp man when doing this would be posturing and being a caricture and bad stereotype? Most bisexual and gay men are not femme at all.
      3. I’m not conservative or religious but not all GLBT people are liberal and you can be GLBT and be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.
      4. What if they do happen to be masculine? I don’t use the term straight acting but I know people who do or have. If this were the 70s, 80s, or 90s you’d be angry at bisexual and gay men who call themselves butch since they happen to be masculine men.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 6:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stu
      Stu

      Kiwi who cares? You’re not proving anything by sticking your head in the sand about Savage’s long history of biphobia and transphobia, and you clearly do not know anything about bisexuality, bisexual erasure, transphobia, or biphobia.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BiTranswoman
      BiTranswoman

      WHAT DOES BIPHOBIA LOOK LIKE?
      * Assuming that everyone you meet is either heterosexual or homosexual.
      * Supporting and understanding a bisexual identity for young people because you identified “that way” before you came to your “real” lesbian/gay/heterosexual identity.
      * Expecting a bisexual to identify as heterosexual when coupled with the so called different gender/sex.
      * Believing bisexual men spread AIDS/HIV to heterosexuals.
      * Thinking bisexual people haven’t made up their minds.
      * Assuming a bisexual person would want to fulfill your sexual fantasies or curiosities.
      * Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual.
      * Feeling that bisexual people are too outspoken and pushy about their visibility and rights.
      * Automatically assuming romantic couplings of two women are lesbian, or two men are gay, or a man and a woman are heterosexual.
      * Expecting bisexual people to get services, information, and education from heterosexual service agencies for their “heterosexual side” (sic) and then go to gay and/or lesbian service agencies for their “homosexual side” (sic).
      * Feeling bisexuals just want to have their cake and eat it too.
      * Believing that bisexual women spread AIDS/HIV to lesbians.
      * Using the terms “phase” or “stage” or “confused” or “fence-sitter” or “bisexual” or “AC/DC” or “switch-hitter” as slurs or in an accusatory way.
      * Thinking bisexuals only have committed relationships with so called different sex/gender partners.
      * Looking at a bisexual person and automatically thinking of their sexuality rather than seeing them as a whole, complete person.
      * Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an different gender/sex coupling to reap the social benefits of a so-called “heterosexual” pairing [sic].
      * Not confronting a biphobic remark or joke for fear of being identified as bisexual.
      * Assuming bisexual means “available.”
      * Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs.
      * Being gay or lesbian and asking your bisexual friend about their lover or whom they are dating only when that person is the “same” sex/gender.
      * Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality.
      * Feeling that you can’t trust a bisexual because they aren’t really gay or lesbian, or aren’t really heterosexual.
      * Expecting a bisexual to identify as gay or lesbian when coupled with the “same” sex/gender.
      * Expecting bisexual activists and organizers to minimize bisexual issues (i.e. HIV/AIDS, violence, basic civil rights, fighting the Right, military, same-sex marriage, child custody, adoption, etc.) and to prioritize the visibility of so called “lesbian and/or gay” issues.
      * Avoid mentioning to friends that you are involved with a bisexual or working with a bisexual group because you are afraid they will think you are a bisexual.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marie
      Marie

      The fact that Savage is claiming that bisexual teens don’t exist and that you’re only bisexual if you’re not a teenager or young adult under 36 is bisexual erasure and biphobia. Others besides myself have posted how Savage is highly biphobic and transphobic and have posted direct quotes from him that do show these things.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • screw kiwi
      screw kiwi

      Everyone should just ignore Kiwi. Kiwi has no empathy for others and thinks the universe revolves around him alone and that he’s always correct. He’s nothing but a troll here on queerty so don’t feed him.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 6:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @screw kiwi:

      Absolutely correct empathy was the word I was looking for describing that trash.He mocked the death of my father who died in July he’s a sick heartless bastard period.You are also correct he never thinks he is wrong which shows how pathetic he continues to be.People with actual HUMILITY and refinement are willing to admit when they are wrong but people like him never.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jordan
      Jordan

      As a bisexual FTM I fully support the glitter bombing of Dan Savage. He loves to treat bisexuals and trans people like me like shit and has been doing this for decades despite being told otherwise by bisexuals and trans people how he’s nothing but a hypocritical bigot and wrong about us. His crocodile tears for it gets better so he could get a reality TV show on MTV and make money off of GLBT people.

      Nov 9, 2011 at 7:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Verdant_CHaos
      Verdant_CHaos

      @Atlas:

      Sexual orientation and gender identity have everything to do with one another. How do you define anybody’s sexual orientation without the reference point of their gender identity? Without the starting point, the endpoint is meaningless.

      And you might keep in mind that many of the reasons GLB people are attacked by society are the same reasons that the T community is attacked — for not adhering to a strict, narrow interpretation of masculinity or femininity. There’s a heck of a lot of gender role variance played out in the GLB community — many gay men act very feminine and many lesbian women act very masculine. Many transgender individuals are also gay or lesbian (or bi) post-transition, as well. Gender is a spectrum and the GLBT community as a *whole* covers it all. Excluding the T is absurd and unnecessarily divisive.

      The day we all learn to get along and help each other rather than tear each other down is the day society will begin to take us seriously and then just maybe we’ll actually get somewhere.

      Nov 10, 2011 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max the Communist
      Max the Communist

      @Kiwi–so you’ve met straight parents who were so relieved here that their child identified as bi instead of gay. I’ve listened to myriad coming stories of bisexual men and women–and some of them came out to their parents as bi and were told, “If you were gay, it would be different. But you have a choice.”

      My own conservative parents didn’t say so at the moment of my coming out. But years into adulthood, whenever I brought up my exposure to discrimination for being openly bi in the workplace, they would sometimes cryptically say, “We feel you are having these problems because of the choices you’ve made.”

      Yeah, deciding in my youth on the policy of truth. I think you and Dan Savage could stand to hear about the things bisexual, pansexual and queer identified people have to go through. You both seem to be under the illusion that being bi is a cushy ride.

      Nov 12, 2011 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max the Communist
      Max the Communist

      @Kiwi–so you’ve met straight parents who were so relieved hear that their child identified as bi instead of gay. I’ve listened to myriad coming stories of bisexual men and women–and some of whom came out to their parents as bi and were told, “If you were gay, it would be different. But you have a choice.”

      My own conservative parents didn’t say so at the moment of my coming out. But years into adulthood, whenever I brought up my exposure to discrimination for being openly bi in the workplace, they would sometimes cryptically say, “We feel you are having these problems because of the choices you’ve made.”

      Yeah, deciding in my youth on the policy of truth. I think you and Dan Savage could stand to hear about the things bisexual, pansexual and queer identified people have to go through. You both seem to be under the illusion that being bi is a cushy ride.

      Nov 12, 2011 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Phil
      Phil

      @Max the Communist:
      Okay, imagine a bi kid comes out to his parents as bi and pressure him to ignore a facet of his sexuality because they don’t like that part that isn’t heteronormative. Harsh.

      Now imagine a gay kid had come out to these same parents as bi. The pressure to conform would still be there but the parents wouldn’t be pressuring him to deny his true sexuality, not simply a facet of it. Their rejection of his sexuality is complete. I think that’s a little bit more harsh; you are free to believe what you will.

      Now imagine if the kid was gay and he came out of his parents as gay. Now, in your example, the situation -is- different. What do you think the response would be? “You’re not our son anymore.” or “Oh thank god you’re not bi because those don’t exist. But we’re very open-minded so it’s okay that you’re gay”?

      The fact of the matter is that it’s easier for bisexuals in an oppressive, heteronormative society to “pass”. They’ll probably enter a heternormative relationship because there’s simply more heterosexuals out there than homosexuals, and that homosexuals can be reluctant to enter relationships with bisexuals. That’s an ugly truth, but there you have it.

      Bisexuals don’t have to “pass”, but they can, and they’ll be hurt by the fact that they’re either expected to or forced to. I mean, they’ll probably pass even if they don’t want to because they’ll probably enter stables relationships with the opposite sex. Can you imagine the introduction, “Hey this is my wife Jane but I also like dicks.”

      Homosexuals don’t have the option of hiding their nonheteronormativity. Bisexuals do. That is the crux of the matter.

      If you see a single straight person out there, what’s the assumption? They’re straight. If you see a single bi person out there, what’s the assumption? They’re straight. If you see a single gay person out there, what’s the assumption? They’re straight. It’s up to the single person to clear up whether or not they’re straight, because otherwise they’re passing for straight.

      Now say it’s a couple. In opposite gender couples, everybody assumes both are straight. In same gender couples, everybody assumes both are gay. If one, or both, of the opposite gender couple is bi, then they can pass for a vanilla straight couple. That is an option for them. They can also let people know that they’re not. That is also an option for them.

      In a same gendered couple, everyone assumes they’re both gay, even if they’re not. One, or both, can be bisexuals, and they have the option of revealing this fact. But there’s not a chance in hell that they can pass for a heteronormative couple.

      Maybe it hurts more to have to have everyone assume you’re heterosexual, when you’re actually not, than to be unable to pass and unable to avoid discrimination. But to that, I have to ask, if it hurts more to be pressured to pass, or to have everyone assume that you’re straight, why not just “not pass”? Where are the bis saying “This is my wife Jane but I also like dicks” even if it’s a little bit awkward? I mean, Lindsey Lohan did it, and if a drunken mess like her has that sort of bravery, you should too.

      Yes, people will make assumptions about bisexuals. People make assumptions about everybody. It’s up to you to clear that up. Everybody thinks everybody else is heterosexual. That’s why it’s a story when an actor or political leader is something else, be it gay, bi, trans or drag enthusiast.

      Nov 12, 2011 at 9:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bard
      Bard

      Ugh. He’s such a snake oil salesman. I’d bet you anything if he hadn’t been born gay he’d be a right wing preacher himself, because he has the perfect self-aggrandizing arrogant I-can-do-no-wrong personality for it. I’d honestly have more respect for him if he just out and out said his real opinion about how he does not like bisexuals or trans people (which is evident from his previous columns) instead of wheedling and “oh no, of course not this, of course not that… I’m still perfect… it’s all the fault of the bisexuals for not coming out… and if you’re bisexual and under 36 you’ll come out eventually as gay or lesbian…” Shut the hell up Dan. You have the charm of a used car dealer, thanks, I get it, now please go away.

      Nov 14, 2011 at 3:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kate LBT
      Kate LBT

      @Tom in Lazybrook: That’s a lie. ENDA 2007 was never going to pass anyway – President Bush promised to veto it, and the Senate decided that it had better things to do with its time than pass a purely symbolic bill that had real deficiencies in it that the President was opposed to.

      Why did ENDA 2009 quietly die after the trans protections were compromised? Probably because trans activists were the primary push behind getting it a hearing in the first place, and when our interests were cut out of it, we went away.

      Nov 24, 2011 at 12:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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