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What Would MLK Have Said About Gay Rights? Ask His Wife

coretta_kingUnfortunately, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., whose birthday we honor today, was assassinated before the gay rights movement became a force on the American stage, so we’ll never know for sure what he may have done to further the cause of gay and lesbian rights had he lived. The person who knew him best, his wife, Coretta Scott King, was certain, however, that King’s legacy was equality for all. To that end, she dedicated much of her time to LGBT equality issues before her death in 2006.

“Like Martin, I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others”, she would tell black civil rights leaders angered by gays and lesbians comparing their struggle to their own. She would quote her husband and say, “I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible.”

She also fought off bigots who would co-opt MLK’s message and try to make it their own. In 2002, anti-gay advocates sought to repeal Miami-Dade County’s equal rights law by sending out fliers saying that King would be outraged at its gay-inclusive nature. Coretta responded through a statement put out by the King Center for Nonviolent Change saying, “I appeal to everybody who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother and sisterhood for lesbians and gay people.” When George W. Bush came out on the White House lawn and, in a bid for reelection, told the press he supported a Constitutional ban on gay marriage, Coretta again spoke up and reminded America of King’s legacy:

“Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union. A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages.”

She had many close gay friends, including one Winston Johnson, of Atlanta:

“Johnson, who is gay, met Mrs. King right after the assassination of her husband, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. They became close friends and he eventually helped her begin her vocal gay advocacy after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in in 1986 in Bowers v. Hardwick — a case that arose from Atlanta — that it was within a state’s right to arrest gay people who violated the state’s sodomy law.”

Her personal assistant, Lynn Cothren, a white, openly gay man, worked closely with her for 23 years. Last March, journalist Herndon Davis sat down with Cothren to discuss what it was like to work so closely with her and how initially, she was disappointed that, despite his name, he was not a black woman:


(The video is a little screwy and you have to move the time line a little before it’ll play, but it’s a fascinating discussion.)

It has been a long, strange few months for the gay community, and if you’re like us, you have mixed feelings about the future. Our passions riled by the ever more obvious injustices done against gays and lesbians in the name of God or tradition, we look for leadership, hope and direction, waiting for a King or a Milk to come and lead us the way to a more fair and just America. We may not get that leader, but as we remember Dr. King today, we should remember that the struggle for gay and lesbian rights is the continuation of his work, not some separate thing. We say this a lot here on Queerty, but the struggle for gay and lesbian equality is the defining civil rights cause of our time. Coretta Scott King’s legacy was to make that indisputable fact known far and wide.

Do you think the gay rights struggle is a continuation of the black civil rights struggle? Is it “the defining civil rights cause of our generation?”

By:           Japhy Grant
On:           Jan 19, 2009
Tagged: , ,

  • 44 Comments
    • GJR
      GJR

      And yet today, on MLK day, we wake up having Gene Robinson excluded for a day of unity, after he was supposed to sooth the anger in the gay community.
      Then tomorrow, someone who says we are the same as child molesters gets honored
      I am so sick of pretty words. The insults to our community speak volumes.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 8:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      No

      Because what fight are you fighting when you are black AND gay?

      Jan 19, 2009 at 8:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M.I.A
      M.I.A

      @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):

      The battle to be recognized as existing.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 8:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael Bedwell
      Michael Bedwell

      The answer to your question, and the response to anyone of ANY color who needs to be reminded that it’s not still 1863, is in the words of one of my heroes, Bayard Rustin, the still too-unknown black AND gay genius without whom King might never have risen to greatness. Among countless other contributions to the black civil rights movement, Rustin gave the 20-something King a graduate course in nonviolent civil disobedience during the Montgomery bus boycott, wrote the charter for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and organized the Great March on Washington. Here is his answer [from OVER 20 YEARS AGO] to your question that I suggest everyone PRINT OUT for future reference:

      “Today, blacks are no longer the litmus paper or the barometer of social change. Blacks are in every segment of society and there are laws that help to protect them from racial discrimination. The new ‘niggers’ are gays. No person who hopes to get politically elected, even in the deep South…would dare stand in the school door to keep blacks out. Nobody would dare openly and publicly argue that blacks should not have the right to public accommodations. Nobody would dare to say any number of things about blacks that they are perfectly prepared to say about gay people. It is in that sense that gay people are the new barometer for social change.

      Indeed, if you want to know whether today people believe in democracy if you want to know whether they are true democrats, if you want to know whether they are human rights activists, the question to ask is, ‘What about gay people?’ Because that is now the litmus paper by which this democracy is to be judged. The barometer for social change is measured by selecting the group that is most mistreated. To determine where society is with respect to change, one does not ask, ‘What do you think about the education of children’? Nor does one ask, ‘Do you believe the aged should have Social Security?” The question of social change should be framed with the most vulnerable group in mind: gay people.” END QUOTE.

      Even Rustin is still being discriminated against as a gay man in death. To this day, the high school that was named after him in his PA hometown refuses to publicly acknowledge his homosexuality, e.g., in the biographical comment about him they promote. Worse still, even AFTER asking his still living male partner, Walter Neagle, for names of people to invite to the school’s dedication, THEY DIDN’T INVITE NEAGLE HIMSELF!!!

      And the couple could have been the perfect subject of a No On Prop H8TE television ad as Neagle had to argue with the hospital for hours to be allowed into Rustin’s room, only finally being let in shortly before Rustin died.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      The answer is yes. Institutionalized discrimination needs to end. The gay rights movement is the defining civil rights movement of our generation one that gay or straight justice minded people have a moral obligation to join and aide. I’m not sure why some people feel so threatened by comparing it to the civil rights movement of the sixties. It is a clear cut case of American citizens being denied fundamental rights because of bigotry. I find a lot of the arguments why the two movements are not connected insulting. For the record I am a straight black christian.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 1:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheShow
      TheShow

      @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):

      Its maddening isn’t it? The blacks say black LGBTQ people are the gays problem and the gays say black LGBTQ people are the blacks problem. The gay community nor the black community acknowledges black LGBTQ people unless to figuratively throw them in the trash. And whats worse, black LGBTQ people suffer many times over the ills each group respectively suffers from.

      “The barometer for social change is measured by selecting the group that is most mistreated.”

      -Bayard Rustin

      While all races within the lgbtq community suffers from discrimination, if the above quote is to be stripped to its innermost core, if we want to be honest, we’ll look at black lgbtq people when wondering how far American society has come.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 2:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JesusofAudacity
      JesusofAudacity

      You tell them racialist queens, grrrl! Barack is the New King! Al others are imataters!

      Jan 19, 2009 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pete
      Pete

      What an incredible woman. She took on all sorts of bigotry: racism, misogyny, homophobia, antisemitism. When so many betray their own conscience for convenience, she stood true to her principle of equality for all.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 4:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Larry in Miami
      Larry in Miami

      I have known about Mrs. King’s views for years; I regret that so many do not realize that she graciously and wholeheartedly included OUR struggle with the struggle of ALL groups denied their full and equal rights. May she rest in peace.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 4:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardR
      RichardR

      @Michael Bedwell: Thanks so much, Michael, for the reminder about Mr. Rustin’s central role in Dr. King’s life and work.

      I can’t remember, though — did MLK give Rustin appropriate credit?

      Whether or no, Mrs. King’s words and work on our behalf are truly meaningful

      Jan 19, 2009 at 5:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jude
      Jude

      @Michael Bedwell: I second those thanks… the writer of a queer-oriented column in an alt. weekly in Montreal has written many times about Mr. Rustin, and what I discovered in his columns is that he was indeed a major influence on Dr. Luther King Jr., as well as a constant source of support. We need to remember those who fell on the sideline because revealing them to the public would have been too “risky” for the movement. They deserve credit, and Mr. Rustin was definitely one of those people.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @TheShow:

      Exactly.

      But I don’t think this will ever happen…in the UK or US…just because…

      People ARE humans first. With race/orientation being 2nd…

      By this I remember a friend(white) asking me what I thought of Condoleeza Rice as a black person with this perplexed grimace! And I said, erm, well, she’s right wing. Her political opinions have nothing to do with her colour. She didn’t choose being Black, it choose her…

      Like Gay people having the most racist comments and people complain BUT they didn’t choose to be gay, they just are. More importantly they are HUMAN.

      So we will never sort this out unless we are more politically honest…

      But yeah right.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 6:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael Bedwell
      Michael Bedwell

      For some perspective on what King’s reaction was to Rustin, and much more, please see two books:

      “Lost Prophet, The Life & Times of Bayard Rustin,” of which a documentary was made, but I haven’t had a chance to see it so can’t speak to its quality though I’ve read praise for it.

      And, “Time on Two Crosses, The Collected Writings of Bayard Rustin.”

      The “two crosses” refer to his race and sexuality, and that also speaks to King’s relationship with him. Rustin himself was somewhat contradictory in his statements about King’s attitudes. But I think it’s fair to say that they were not as noble as one would hope BUT, to be fair, were reflective of the time [the 50s and 60s], King’s age [he was in his 20s when thrust into the leadership of the movement and only 39 when he was assassinated], and the incredible and sometimes evil pressures on him.

      Another legend, tho far minor, was black pastor/Congressman Adam Clayton Powell. He actually tried to blackmail King once into canceling planned protests at the Democratic National Convention by threatening to tell the public that King and Rustin WERE LOVERS which they most certainly were not. More than once Rustin volunteered to distance himself from MLK and the movement because of fears that his homosexuality would harm him/it.

      And he was only allowed to organized the Great March after his hallowed mentor, A. Phillip Randolph, personally interceded with the coalition of black groups that opposed it.

      He wasn’t perfect, of course, and made some serious mistakes. But he is probably the greatest least known figure in American history.

      Also, I must correct the spelling of his partner’s last name. It is Naegle, and he works hard to care for and educate about Rustin’s legacy.

      Jan 19, 2009 at 10:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alfredo Munoz
      Alfredo Munoz

      Oh Puhlease spare us from the MLK tripe.The superficial MLK hoax was a set up from the start.If anyone was to dare to do some investigating of this man they would learn that Doctor King entertained himself on many occasions with the company of white prostitutes.Drinking strong liquor and beating them in the process.This hollow tainted icon was no saint but a blatant hypocrite who many deify without investigation.This is not a reactionary rant I welcome anybody to do some research beneath all the hype.

      Jan 20, 2009 at 12:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jjm16
      jjm16

      it was, sadly, very shocking for me to even read this, as someone who’s educated about both (civil rights) movements, but who knows little about mrs. king or her views. this fact only goes to show how easily and effortlessly what we think we know about great minds can be overshadowed by our assumptions about groups and their leaders.

      I’m still, however, hesitant to overlook the post’s failure to address the fact that the black (generally protestant…methodist/baptist) church, as “an institution”-like all other churches-has done a horrendous job of calling for the inclusion, or even addressing in any way the existence, of gays. politics and religion often shouldn’t mix, but they should when it comes to humanity and equality.

      For me, as a new resident of the Bible Belt(aka, the South), I can’t help but think that the close-mindedness of an overly assimilated(almost midwesternish) black church is a major force behind the pathetic and ironic disconnect between the black struggle of yesteryear and the ongoing plight of gays referenced several times above.

      Jan 20, 2009 at 12:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris
      Chris

      God bless Coretta King. She was there just as much as Dr. King and kept the momentum moving. I hope she can see what is happening this week and that she is having a joyful rest.

      Jan 20, 2009 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Saturday Night Special
      Saturday Night Special

      Corretta King is noted for openly stating that Martin Luther King has serious problems in regards to his treatment of women.

      I do not believe Martin Luther King would have supported gay civil rights such as gay marriage.

      Barack does not support gay civil rights. He is AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE. WILL NOT REPEAL DADT. Has launched Rev. Warren into stardom, Rev. Wright baptised his children.

      Obama is a bigot.

      MLK was a misogynist bigot. Hated women.

      Was Martin Luther King pro gay? Would he have supported gay marraige?

      HA!

      That in a laugh!

      Jan 20, 2009 at 3:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Saturday Night Special
      Saturday Night Special

      @Alfredo Munoz: hear hear!

      Jan 20, 2009 at 3:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stephen
      Stephen

      @Alfredo Munoz: Why do you feel a need to believe such things?

      Jan 21, 2009 at 5:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stephen
      Stephen

      @Saturday Night Special: Ouch.(in reguaed to 17)(19 in reguard to 14)

      Jan 21, 2009 at 5:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alfredo Munoz
      Alfredo Munoz

      Because they are true and documented that’s why.I invite you to to do some research.

      Jan 21, 2009 at 11:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      Coretta would read your fag asses something fierce for shitting on transpeople. She would find the gay guys open racism after Prop 8 particularly heart wrenching.

      Gay rights do not have moral authority. Sorry…it aint so.

      For that, gay hate and erasure of trans lives needs to stop. Unless you think hate should triumph over other people’s lives.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 5:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @Alfredo Munoz:

      Sorry, I say it’s full of shit. George W. Bush? Show us your documentation. Yes, Jeff Gannon was a suspcious presence but still is far from proof that GWB is gay.
      Post us a link if you think it is such a proven fact. Otherwise, I say you’re full of it.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 9:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      Um, you really need to get back on the meds and control your rage and anger.
      Who exactly has shit on cross-gender people? I haven’t, haven’t seen people on this site do it.
      Who has been erasing trans-gender lives? Someone at this site?
      Care to explain yourself or act like a raving lunatic.

      As regards Prop 8, made my position clear. If someone is African American in California, proclaimed a new day moving away from discrimination in America with the election of Obama yet voted YES on Prop 8, they are absolute disgusting hypocrites unable to see beyond their own suffering and consider the suffering of someone else. If only ONE person did it, they are a hypocrite.

      But you’re not going to win over many people with your name-calling and rage, especially when people have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. Try including a link next time to the people who “erase trans-gender lives” – Whom do you mean exactly. Oh and next time, you might want to stop with the generalizing bullshit, not all gay men hate trans-gendered people by any means. If you see a case of someone doing it, point it out, I’m quite sure the community will condemn it.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 9:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @Alfredo Munoz:

      And you can say that about many people in history. LBJ, Kennedy all did some pretty bad things. Even Mother Theresa was far from the ideal. But fact is, many do see MLK as an inspirational figure. That is why we have a holiday. So raging about him simply won’t win you many friends, although of course it is your right to state your opinion. Many things, if not all of our history, is about distortions. George Washington had no problem owning slaves. Yet we celebrate his birthday.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 9:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      @GJR:
      My, aren’t we testy…

      Okay, history lesson for the fag sucking his thumb (?) in the back row.

      But forst, my generalization is fair. The only thing it takes to judge a group evil is for most of its members to stand by idly when a few or more do Bad Things.

      The Gay community has done exactly this to transfolks over and over. A few act, the rest agree, because they do not care and it benefits them.

      And, your insinuating that my anger is a medical issue and not an issue of gays oppressing trans women and trans folks in general is chuckleworthy to say the best, offensive at worst.

      Social justice will be my med of choice, buddy.

      Now, some history for your lazy fag ass.
      * Transpeople and the gay rights only movement:
      http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2007/10/why-transgender-community-hates-hrc.html

      And who can forget Jim Fouratt?
      http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Fouratt/Jim%20Fouratt.html
      Or how about Julie Bindel, lesbian “journalist” who openly advocates reparative therapy for trans women? She was honored by Stonewall UK earlier this year with a nomination for Journalist of the Year.

      And then again there’s the Lambda Literary organisation nominating trans-misogynist Bailey for a lambda book award.

      That goes right up there with trans woman hater Norah Vincent openly bashing trans women in print in the Advocate. (links removed..somebody wants to bury the past)

      And of course, nothing like gays harassing trans women at Pride. One trans woman was sexually assaulted as a direct result.
      http://www.transatpride.org/TransAtPride/Transphobia.html
      Gays assaulting trans women is not uncommon.

      And of course, let’s exploit our dead, HRC style. (I support bashing of nontrans homos who usurp this trans Holy Day. They deserve worse, but we do what we can, no?)
      http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/how-to-mourn/

      And read Pat Califa for many examples of gay historians rewriting trans women and Two Spirit people out of our history and turning them into fags to make gays look better.

      This is just what I found drinking my morning coffee. There are many more.

      For sufggesting my anger is anything less than legitimate, you should be ashamed of yourself.

      But, then again, you do benefit from belittling trans women here, don’t you?

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      Sorry, not listening to shit from you until you stop the name calling. I’m not going to take your fucking abuse. You might want to address your anger issues before you start calling names.

      You make all of these assumptions about ME, and other people. I have never said one fucking thing to you, never said one thing about transgendered people. I merely made the point, present what it is you are angry about.

      Guess fucking what, I had nothing to do with any of the incidents you suggested. I would guess nobody here did either. But you make all of these assumptions, you ASSUME will all are supposed to know what you’re talking about.

      Fucking brilliant way to change minds when you scream and call people names. I was open to learning more. Now I don’t give a flying fuck about you. No, not saying transgenders. Just plain old you, fuck off.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      And…this is why I call you faggots.

      http://www.ourchart.com/content/trans-labyrinth

      This and entirely too many places where lesbians and gays call us “tranny.”

      And of course, Christian Siriano, who can forget him? “hot tranny mess?”

      The fag rights movements has hurt trans women in so many ways. Fags eager to bash us to bolster themselves.

      Buddy, none of this is isolated, you are just too invested in silencing us with stupid ableist comments like you tried with me earlier to even notice it.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      Oh by the way, not belittling trans-women, just you alone.
      You start off your writing with “fag asses” and all of these names to people who have never had anything to do with the incidents you suggest, you ASSUME we all hate transgender people, you ASSUME we all are hostile to transgender people. I have a friend who is a transgender woman. But you just ASSUME that you can start off your post ranting and screaming, that because there are gay men here we must ALL be guilty, right? You are the hater. I’ve never said a bad word about a transgender person. You’ve had 2 posts were you called us “lazy fags” and everything else. Have a good life.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      Again FUCK FUCK OFF. I am not invested in isolating anybody. You don’t know me. Funny how someone who keeps talking about prejudices decides ALL gay men are the same way, all think the same way. Look in the mirror about your OWN prejudices.

      And guess what? I’m not Christian Siriano. Take it up with him.
      But I’m a gay man, so I must agree with Christian Siriano, right?
      I MUST have this agenda to put transgender people down, right?
      You don’t fucking no me.
      And don’t call me buddy – anybody who calls me names and makes assumptions about me before they even know me is no buddy to me.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      This is why I call you faggots? Um do you understand that one person does not mean ALL people think that way? I have one transgender friend but we have not discussed the issue a lot. I’ve never said one bad thing about transgender people. Yet you transfer all of your rage to ALL gay men, many of whom had nothing to do with it?

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      @GJR:
      And the people who are against gay rights have nothing personal against you either pal.
      They didn’t do anything to you directly, so, why are you even here?

      See the parallel?

      How about a lil respect?

      Stop being such a candy ass and own your communities shit. After all, you made it yours when you bashed the messenger.

      Go educate yourself. Do that, and save me the trouble of coming here to whack you upside the brain pan with a clue-by-four.

      Everyone will be better off if you do. Promise.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      My hope is, that you will learn about us.

      So many transfolk have been nice…nice is well covered tyvm. transpeople have the freaking monopoly on nice.

      Nice got us ENDA, SONDA, MWMF, Getting called “tranny”, Bay Windows abysmal reporting, gay rights activists like Elizabeth Birch and many others spewing their hate.

      Nice has not gotten us far, has it?

      I am not nice for this reason. Deal.

      And I am sorry for your friend. Does she or he know that you will sell him or her down the river if it means more rights for you?

      What will you do when she or he finds out?

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      “And the people who are against gay rights have nothing personal against you either pal.
      They didn’t do anything to you directly, so, why are you even here?”

      Yeah, but I don’t start calling you names when you don’t have anything to do with it. Sure, some gay people have mistreated transgender people, it is frankly an issue I didn’t know a lot about. But you come in screaming at everyone, saying “you fags”, when probably 95% of the people here would SUPPORT you.

      Oh, and I’m no fan of the people against gay rights. But I’m not gonna go out in the street and start screaming at all straight people, because maybe they are supportive straight people, like my parents or many others, get it?

      “Stop being such a candy ass and own your communities shit. After all, you made it yours when you bashed the messenger.”

      Um, first, every community has people who are problems.
      Are all Italians Mafia?
      Are all African Americans like Donnie McClurkin who say gays should go to hell?
      Every community has people who do things we are not proud of.
      Show me cases of injustice, and I will speak out against them

      No, I bashed your name-calling and hostility when you don’t know me.

      “Go educate yourself. Do that, and save me the trouble of coming here to whack you upside the brain pan with a clue-by-four.”

      And guess what? A lot of people don’t know many things. I am a specialist on people who died in Stalin’s camps. Know a lot about that? Does that mean you are for the murder of 15 million people? Do you know all their is to know about the problems of gay men or lesbians? We ALL can stand to learn more

      But just ASSUMING that because someone doesn’t know everything doesn’t mean they accept or condone abuse. I am very politically active, I work for the poor, children, people with no insurance as well as gay issues. Sorry if I am not educated about everything. But calling me names when you don’t know me doesn’t encourage me to learn more.

      “How about a lil respect?”

      How about startin’ with some respect? You start calling people names who you have never met and expect to start a conversation, particularly to people who probably support you here?

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      Um, again, projecting anger for someone you don’t know. Who the fuck said I’d sell my friend down the river? First, my friend has never talked that much about these issues concerning her, so in part, it’s her fault as well, I can’t know the issues that are important to her.

      Oh and who the fuck says it must be one way or another? If we get DOMA repealed it MUST mean we are all against transgender issues? Who the fuck said that?

      You make so many assumptions. Most of the people here support transgender people. If there are things they don’t know, how about educating, instead of screaming and calling names?
      Did you know a gay man is not allowed to donate blood in America? Look it up. But if you didn’t know that, I’m not going to say you hate all gay people, you want to throw them under the bus or whatever.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      If you are that politaclly savy, learn about your own communities’ crimes against us.

      While you yourself may not have pulled any triggers, you do benefit from it.

      and, as long as that is true, you are just as guilty as the local shopkeeper who benefited form having his neighbors turned in to the KGB.

      We can argue levels of guilt all day long.

      But, you should know where trans rage comes from, and why. It is something cured by social justice, not meds.

      Unless you are arguing that trans people deserve to have anger at justice medicated away.

      They tried that with gay and lesbian youth you know. One Lambda literary award winner (later revoked under strong protest) advocates exactly this.

      So, for someone who has “nothing to do with this” you share at least that in common with these people.

      And, I knew this when I started in on you. You simply proved yourself right.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      “Did you know a gay man is not allowed to donate blood in America? Look it up. But if you didn’t know that, I’m not going to say you hate all gay people, you want to throw them under the bus or whatever.”

      You sorry piece of shit. I have buried two lovers lost to HIV. I fund an AIDS outreach fully in Second Life, and I do it with 1/5 of my total income.

      Do not assume that I am as ignorant as you are.

      Your ignorance is not what I have issue with. It is your arrogance. Learn the difference.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      And hey, since you insist on mouthing off about AIDS, why don’t you come to Rhode Island with me. We can ride up to a certain public health clinic that treats gay men with HIV and turns away trans women to die.

      I would love to hear your mealy mouthed denial of that one in the flesh.

      I would love to hear you side with the clinic people, and the words you use. Or maybe, it would just be your silence. After all, its not like gays are being discriminated against, right?

      And if you remain silent, its not like you are guilty? amirite?

      because, you can always cherry pick the good and wonderful parts of the gay identity and leave the rest alone, as you choose to do here.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      @lyssa:

      No you fuck off. All you can do is call names. Asking the fact about not being able to donate blood is the same as insensitivity to HIV/AIDS, it’s a different prejudiced policy

      And I mean that simply YOU should go on meds, you are angry, hostle and you decide everybody fits your little pattern.
      I went to Yale and Berkeley, you piece of shit. Grew up in the Bay Area and am very aware of the issues of the gay community.

      You are such a great representative for change. Call people names. You have one LESS person willing to listen. Fuck off.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 3:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GJR
      GJR

      No you fucking piece of filth, I’ve worked at AIDS clinics in San Francisco and Connecticut too. Don’t need no instructions from you.
      Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off. You think you are the fucking font of wisdom? You think I haven’t had a friend who died of AIDS?
      Fuck off.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 3:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lyssa
      lyssa

      @GJR:
      I’m laughing at you.

      Your arrogance suggests that you are not and never were any kind of ally to transfolk.

      You simply are using me as an excuse to release all that hate you had bottled up.

      You refuse to learn, and stamp your feet like a child when presented with facts and data.

      Because, you know you are wrong… and that gays have committed atrocities against trans women freely. And, taking on a gay identity means taking a share in gays’ contrbutions to society. yeah, both the good, bad, and simply atrocious.

      I suspect you are used to winning arguments with angry homophobes, and winning… simply because they have no case.

      One angry trans woman shows up and you fold like a house of cards, because, we most definitely have legitimate issue with the gays and lesbian crowd.

      And your awareness of issues in the gay community has obviously done nothing to inform you about trans folks, has it?

      So selfish, So self righteous. So pathetic.

      What’s your next trick, bucko? Foaming more at the mouth because you have no counter-argument? Flouncing off in an angry huff, claiming that gays are right after all for hating on us?

      Inquiring minds want to know.

      Jan 22, 2009 at 3:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alfredo Munoz
      Alfredo Munoz

      Go LYSSA !!! Trampling down the grapes of wrath and firing truth from the hip.Let me stand aside and wonder marvelously.My hat is off to you!!!

      Jan 23, 2009 at 12:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Zoe Brain
      Zoe Brain

      The book is not the most damaging writing that Raymond has penned. Far worse is a United States federal government commissioned study in the early 1980’s on the topic of federal aid for transsexual people seeking rehabilitation and health services. This paper, not well publicized, effectively eliminated federal and some states aid for indigent and imprisoned transsexuals. It had a further impact on private health insurance which followed the federal government’s lead in disallowing services to transsexual patients for any treatment remotely related to being transsexual, including breast cancer or genital cancer, as that was deemed to be a consequence of treatment for transsexuality.
      She’s still considered in good odor with the RadFem Lesbian community.

      On the other hand….

      Let us not forget the 300 GLBT groups, mainly GLB, who supported a gender-inclusive ENDA.

      So yes, we have had, and continue to have, extreme disrespect as “trannies” with “mad tranny disease” from … look, I should say “fags” here, but I can’t. They may deserve the disrespect, but so many who don’t deserve it get it that I have to say “a minority of the gay community that remains implacably transphobic and misogynistic”.

      We also face the ignorance of many reasonable gays and lesbians who are utterly clueless that segments of their group treat transwomen as badly, and badly in the same way, that segments of society at large treat them.

      Jan 23, 2009 at 6:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Minorkle
      Minorkle

      here, here

      Jan 16, 2012 at 8:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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