Say what you will about Erik (aka Straight Acting Gay Guy) — and you say a lot! — but he definitely says in public YouTube videos what many of us think privately. Like how some masc gay guys look down, laugh at, and feel hostility toward fem guys.
Does that make these guys self-hating? Homophobic? Do fem guys feel the same way towards more masc guys? Erik, who says he used to laugh at flamey ‘mos, says his “urge to laugh was my reaction to being curious and uncertain about those particular gay people.”
Robert
As a “masculine” gay guy (still don’t know what that entails), I don’t think there is anything more bitchier and queenier than the hordes of “masculine” gays who feel the need to whine and cry at every opportunity about “feminine” gays. At least most of the “fem” guys I know are comfortable with themselves and enjoy their life.
Andrew
As far as I’m concerned, those ‘Masc Gay Guys’ who do such are just as bad if not worse than when Fred Phelps attacks gays as a whole. While I’m against ALL LGBT people being automatically stereotyped as gender variant, I’m also against the opposite, — fuck gender roles, they are not biologically but rather sociologically based and basically swap every century based on the societal expectations of the time. I say this as someone whom is probably in the middle, — but I don’t bother thinking “does this conform to my gender?” when I want to do something. If I watch football it’s because I like it, not because it’s a “manly” thing. If I wear eyeliner it’s because I like it, not because I’m a drag queen.
I actually don’t do either of those things, but you get my point. ;]
peter
In my experience, the gays who think they are so masc are the ones that are actually quite nellie. It must just be a perception thing. Most guys think if someone is a bottom that they are not as masc as a top. Its all just so much crap!
gayairman
I know for me personally my (former) hostility towards fem gay guys came from so many straight people saying “I would be cooler with gay people if more were like you. You know, not flaming, just a normal guy.” I was angry with the fem gay guys because I felt like they were holding back gay rights because I heard this so much. But then I realized that those straight people were just bigots who were making some sort of effed up exception for me about how they feel.
For me personally, thats where the divide came from. However, that doesn’t stop me from using me being masculine to prove to straight people that being gay doesn’t mean we’re all fem. I use it to my advantage when I talk to people about gay rights. Even if I manage to convince only a handful of people a year, thats that many more I talk into supporting gay rights.
TJ
Well it could be them being self-hating….or maybe it’s the fact that the whole Fem style is associated with being gay in movies, tv (Glee: I knew you were gay because you played with dolls; Real World: I played with dolls, so of course I was gay), online, and in the very culture. Some of us aren’t feminine and actually like masculine characteristics. Being masculine is not “straight” and being feminine is “gay.” If a guy likes masculine guys, maybe that’s just his preference. Also, some people can’t identify with the overly feminine gay characters in our media.
People didn’t know I was gay because I played with dolls, or spoke in some way, or got along better with girls, or put too much attention on the way I dressed, or constantly listened to annoying pop music but because I told them.
So yea, that’s part of the reaction. Not hating on fem guys or being hostile towards them, but rejecting them as the thing with which I am identified in popular culture.
Tim
I’m a gay guy who considers himself masculine and I don’t feel hostile toward effeminate guys. I often feel that I can’t relate to guys like that in terms of becoming friends, but I do have friends who are more stereotypically gay and I don’t care whether they act feminine or not. The problem for me is not how any one person acts or where their behavior falls on some imaginary scale of masculinity. It’s that society as a whole, and unfortunately many gay men as well, seem to want to believe that gay men are all the same. That we all love Madonna and the Golden Girls and give a sh#t about fashion, among other cliches.
Gay people who have a voice in the media, say, the creators of Will and Grace, or the Newsweek guy who wrote that gay people can’t play straight roles, want to project their narrow concept of what a gay man is supposed to be onto all of us. What that does is make it harder for masculine gay teenagers and young men (and even old men, still) who are struggling with their identity to truly accept who they are and come out. Trust me, I know this from experience. I spent years jerking off to thoughts of men while still thinking of myself as straight. Since the only gay men I know were so different from me personality-wise, I kept thinking ‘I must not be gay.’
All these masculine guys staying in the closet makes life difficult for the rest of us, because it lets anti-gay bigots and even more moderate people continue to look at gays as a monolithic subculture separate from everyone else. When you see someone as “the other,” it’s easier to discriminate.
I don’t blame feminine guys for this phenomenon. I blame the mainstream media and entertainment complex as well as the established gay media/entertainment complex. And the fact that a lot of actors, pro athletes, politicians and other prominent closeted men are too cowardly to acknowledge who they are, when their act of coming out could change society’s perception of who and what gay men can be. And thus sweep away some of the reasons why they are so afraid to come out in the first place.
Hilarious
This ridiculous non-argument is so tired and UNPROVEN.
There’s no pack of masculine gay men who are running around harassing feminine gay men.
The only thing I’ve seen is ONLINE REJECTION for ONLINE DATING of feminine gay men by masculine gay men. That’s as far as it’s gone and that’s what stemmed this ridiculous exaggeration and flat out lying.
Masculine gay men are normally looking for the same in a partner and say as much. They post “straight acting” in their dating profiles and say “no femmes”.
Is that a crime? No. Is that homophobia? No. Is that self-hatred? No.
The only real life animosity I’ve witnessed has come from the supposed femme victims who will snub a masculine gay male and make a snide(supposedly witty) remark about closet cases. Because to be truly out you must be effeminate right? Wrong.
I’m getting tired of this nonstop attack on the faceless, silent, minority of masculine gay men. No one is harassing you, no one is picking on you, no one hates you.
Just because someone is not attracted to you as a feminine gay male does not mean they hate you.
And if you disbelieve anything I just posted feel free to do your research to the beginning of these complaints about masculine gay men.
The results will lead you back to online dating where all of this started and you’ll realize how completely idiotic this complaining is.
I mean a majority of the profiles also say “No blacks and no latinos.” but I have yet to see anyone claiming gays are racist.
It’s time to drop this argument because last I checked most masculine gay men don’t even frequent the same places as feminine gay men. Mostly because we get snubbed and ignored on top of feeling out of place from the get go.
Andrew
@Hilarious: You must be new to this site, or just never bothered to read the comments much. I would say you are the one with your head in the sand if you seriously think there isn’t a good amount of Masc. Gay guys whom don’t repeatedly rail about the femmes and Queens.
L.
@Hilarious: I’ve stopped counting the times I’ve heard gays whine and bitch and complain that the fems/trannies “gave gays a bad image”. So I don’t know which part of the world you live in, but it can’t be close to mine.
As for Erik – no offense and no judgment, but I can’t help wonder if someone who feels the need to use a handle such as “straightactinggayguy”, does videos wondering about “the gay accent”, is best qualified to lecture us about people who “feel the need to categorize”, as he says here.
I’ll give him that this video is a fair step forward from his “gay accent” one, but still.
Hilarious
@Andrew: So your whole argument is that you got picked on online by someone you don’t know therefore masculine gay men have something against feminine gay men?
Online is not real life.
Like I said, non-argument.
Qjersey
Seems our boy is growing up.
The entire “debate” is really about three different things:
1) Camp (the over the top flamboyance)
2) Queeny (it’s an attitude, not a gender thing)
3) Femininity (which can also be split in two: behavior/mannerisms and emotional response/attitudes)
I know “feminine” or softer men that aren’t the least bit queeny or into campy exchange
I know “masculine” or butch men who are terribly queeny and get into camp humor. Haven’t you ever seen a bunch of leather men singing show tunes?
And with queeny and campy there are guys who act that way at times and others who NEVER turn it off.
concernedcitizen
PLEASE ignore Hilarious!!!! As all of his posts are nothing more than attempts to incite controversy!!!!
Hilarious
@concernedcitizen: Because your panties are in a twist over nothing?
How do anonymous internet postings result in a real life phenomena of masculine gay men bashing feminine gay men?
Post one shred of proof this exists in real life.
You can’t.
Jeffree
Hilarious is just a clone of Jason.
Michael
I’m with this guy in that I used to feel the same way. (I think?) He mentions that his old reactions may have been because he was excited knowing that the “feminine” guys were gay and he knew that he was gay. This IS indeed an exciting but frightening thing for people in the closet, I believe. But how, really, do we DEFINE masculinity? The rules are constantly changing. I mean I understand that there are guys on extreme ends that most would clearly call masculine or feminine, but what of the majority in the middle?? Well…I think we all have a touch of both sides in us. Some more than others…and I’ll explain why:
I think that not only is “masculinity” ever changing, I think it is subjective. I can best describe this by telling a bit about myself. I came from a small Catholic private highschool. You can imagine what the social environment was like there. It was accepting, but still clearly conservative. I graduated and now attend a conservatory of music, theatre, and dance. We have SO many homosexuals and bisexuals that even those who visit from other music and theatre schools comment on the “gayness” of my conservatory. We have some gay men who could pass as a woman better than most of the women. We have men here who are “manlier” than most manly athletes. Anyway, the change in environments produced a change in how I saw *myself*. While in high school, I was clearly more “feminine” than my peers, but now I am much more “masculine” than many of my peers.
What it comes down to is what does one see oneself as? BECAUSE HOW PEOPLE *SEE* THEMSELVES IS LIKELY WHAT THEY WILL BECOME. In other words, for those who are perhaps not entirely self-confident, they will make themselves out to be something they are originally not. (But I mean what are any of us originally MEANT to be?? Honestly, to an extent, I don’t believe making choices of expression are bad. But I do whenever it stems from social pressure….)
Many of the characteristic “masculine” trademarks (certain greetings, male terms of affection like dude, man, bro, lack of fashion sense, LACK OF EMOTION or concern for certain issues,etc.) are things that ANYONE can learn to copy and incorporate into their lives, creating the desired image. Likewise, anyone of equal self-confidence who might, for whatever reason, be attracted to isolating themselves from the popular majority could go the other way and copy stereotypically “feminine” characteristics.
In short, I believe in neutrality. I see myself as both masculine and feminine. (And I find this so-called “straight-acting blogger” to contain both as well. His lower-pitched speaking voice and fashion/hair speak “masculine,” while his speech PATTERN and pronunciation [like the sibilant s] and general concern read rather “feminine.” He’s certainly not fooling me.)
I am completely aware of my own neutrality coming from both masculine and feminine characteristics. Once I finally “found myself” and become truly happy and content with my mind and my body, I realized everything I’ve discussed above and realized that it is stupid of me to waste time conforming to society and to the “hot” image in my head. I am what I am, and YOU are who YOU are. Sure, I like to make fashion choices and the like to define myself, but this is now a process of figuring out how to represent what’s in my mind and transferring it onto my body in interesting, creative, or aesthetically pleasing ways – whereas before it was simply to fit in or fit a mold that I found attractive and normal in high school. (The funny thing looking back, though, is that people saw through that. No matter how hard one tries to hide their true selves, it still comes out. It is very apparent, in fact, to tell when someone is bluffing their identity. I think gays might be more able to pick up on this because of our general social standing and experience with people…but that’s a story for another time.)
Not always, but often those who are on any extreme end of the spectrum are that way because they (subconsciously?) feel the need to match a certain social prototype. …and this goes for gays AND straights.
Again once I understood all of this and how PEOPLE and the WORLD worked much better, I was able to clear up my mind and focus on the things that really matter. My choice in men changed, how I expressed myself changed, and my confidence level rose.
So – That’s what I believe.
**Here’s a post I wrote about America’s Changing Masculinity:
http://expansionofspace.blogspot.com/2010/06/happy-man-day-okay-now-lets-get-serious.html
Michael
and @QJersey has an interesting point I could incorporate into my lil argument as well. 😉
L.
@Hilarious: I mentioned I had witnessed real-life – verbal – bashing of “fems” by “mascs”. I’d submit I’m not alone in that. I stand by this.
BillySaint
@Hilarious – – – I can’t tell if you think you are masculine or “fem” but I think the article here is addressing covert hostility more than overt hostility. You’re right, it doesn’t seem to be an issue of masc gay guys out physically harassing fem guys, but some masc guys do it silently in their own minds or with friends. As a masc gay guy I certainly have felt from time to time like I am not represented in the gay media very well. It seems the stereotypical fems dominate more than masc. I find it to be an imbalance but nothing more. I do feel great when a hot masc gay guys comes out on a sports league or a masc hot gay guy does movies etc. Things are changing and I do appreciate that part of the puzzle being fulled in.
Gofer David
My recent visit to province town had me thinking about this topic. The guys steroided out and others who were naturally built in some attempt to look a certain way. Was it to conform? To look more masculine to avoid earlier days in youth when they were picked on for being effeminate, to avoid being gay subconsciously? To fit in? Motivation and attempt to be secure are an interesting thing. Sadly, changing ones appearance doesn’t necessarily lead to instant security and triumph over insecurity.
At any rate there is research out there on all of this stuff, including the point of the video. You can find it and read about it versus debating it on here.
BillySaint
I used to be a real negative prick about drag queens and their mouthy meanderings. Then after 3 years of taunting by my straight acting gay friends to do drag with them on Halloween in SF, I finally decided to put on “the dress”. I had the absolute best fucking time of my life. Now I have no issues with drag queens, though I never put on a dress again. It was a great way to get to know them and release my judgments. I had to “walk in their shoes”, well ok, high-heels, to get the message there were warm wonderful people behind those bawdy exteriors. It brings up that old saying “if ya can’t beat em, join em”. Even if it’s for one night.
@GoferDavid . . . Some guys might bulk up out of insecurity. But my hit is the majority keep in shape to get laid, (tho that does not always work ;)and be able to look at our bodies in the mirror and feel a sense of pride and accomplishment which boosts our egos in a positive way. This is not just a gay thing, I think it’s all across the board.
james_from_the_great_city_of_cambridge
Uh…this Erik guy represents masculine gay guys now? Really? Rupaul is more butch than this guy. And Erik is starting to hit Davey Wavey levels of annoying.
james_from_the_great_city_of_cambridge
@Hilarious: Man, do people love you this much in the real world too? You just make friends wherever you go, don’t you? Maybe it’s because you’re too masculine and all the testosterone emanating from your manly, butch body is scaring the hell out of us. Or maybe it’s because you’re kinda a tool.
Toby
Meh, I don’t really put much thought into it. What seems “Fem” to some, might seem “Masc” to other and so on and so forth.
Different strokes for different folks.
L.
@james_from_the_great_city_of_cambridge: Now, now. (Although both do flail arms about quite a bit.)
Ken S
I don’t have a problem with ‘effeminate’ or ‘flamboyant’ gay guys, and I don’t have a problem with ‘masculine’ or ‘gender-normative’ gay guys; what I will have a laugh at in either case is people *thoughtlessly* playing stereotyped roles with no apparent introspection or self-awareness. To me, a guy who ‘does’ all the macho blue-nursery crap without critically looking at male & female gender stereotypes in our culture– who puts on the socially expected male trope and never scrutinizes it or liberates himself from it– is no different from a guy who comes out and becomes a walking gay cliche overnight, taking on some catty attitude and converting to Gagaism and dismissing anything that isn’t of “gay interest” because that’s their very superficial impression of what being a homo is. Because they’re the same phenomenon: adopting some mindless, doctrinaire persona that’s been scripted by others (by men, women, straights, gays, the majority, the minority, heterosexist misogynist patriarchs or addled genderqueer theorists) and in the process they’re giving up a measure of their autonomy and their freedom to self-define.
I know everyone’s at least a *little* guilty of it, because there’s practically nothing new under the sun. But as I see it, a person has to be stupid not to pick and choose for themselves good qualities to aspire to, regardless of whether they’re thought to be typically ‘gay’ or ‘straight,’ ‘male’ or ‘female,’ or whatever. And once you free yourself to do that and you really start examining those categories you start to see how arbitrary they are and how little power they have to actually define you; then you can truly start cultivating virtues like courage, wisdom, kindness, good judgment, strength, sensitivity, and not waste time obsessing over whether those are ‘appropriate’ qualities for a gay male, or whether you’re being sufficiently conformist or adequately subversive.
alan brickman
Queens encourage homophobes to laugh at all gays….it makes denying equal rights so much easier if you don’t respect a group….
afrolito
@Ken S:
Bravo!
jason
I think the animosity is more to do with the camp notion. Femme gay guys are camp by definition. Camp has an air of theatricality. Call it phoniness if you wish. When I see someone who’s very camp, I see someone who is attempting to draw attention to himself and being phony.
Chris
@Ken S: Also a bravo!
Hilarious
@james_from_the_great_city_of_cambridge: I’m amused at how you’re still holding a grudge over the internet about an article posted like what a week ago?
You don’t need to worry about real life, it’s clear you don’t have one.
Michael
The f’n problem is people like this “straight acting gay guy” are not straight acting. No matter how macho you think you are, if you’re sucking another guy off you’re no more ‘macho’ then any run-of-the-mill drag queen.
James L. Greenlee
I don’t know why everyone ties themselves into knots over this one. We all grew up with somebody who could never “pass” as straight, thus proving conclusively the “born gay” theory. And we’ve all known people who do it as an act, so all-the-time over-the-top that we’ve rolled our eyes.
I’m personally kind of down the middle on this one. Gay guys would probably pick me out of the crowd in a hurry as gay, most straight people don’t. I’ve never consciously tried to be “straight acting,” but I’ve always been a conservative dresser, never much in for sparkles or spangles. I don’t mind those who are, or those who are attracted to it.
That said, I can totally understand being turned OFF by it. I’ve never understood the appeal of drag, but I’d never try to suppress it either. Still, when it comes to (here in Vegas) the “Sin City Sisters,” I’m COMPLETELY squicked out. The combination of drag, religion and scary clown freaks me the hell out.
Uppity
Here’s a scenario that I think many “femme” guys will relate to. You hook up with a guy who’s straight-acting and straight-identitying. You know the type; frequently hyper-masculine, married, discreet. Not tortured by his liking for sex with men, because he doesn’t need the sex, but if the opportunity’s there, he’ll take it. And guess what? This ultra-straight acting man (whose mannerisms so many straight-acting gay men aspire to emulate), has no issue with you being effeminate. He relates to you as one man to another. His lack of hang-ups about your supposed feminine traits is something that many straight-acting gay men could learn from.
axos
I guess if masculine men have problems with effeminate men, it’s partly because the whole society has a problem with anything feminine. Females have lower status, so have effeminate gay men – and lesbians. (Btw – what about many lesbians’ complaining that gay men tend to ignore and sometimes bully them?)
So, “OK, I’m gay, but at least I’m not effeminate.”
As for effeminate men actually being like females, I’ve thought about that a lot, and I really think that’s not the case. No real woman acts or walks or sounds like that in real life (maybe in comedies). The effeminate gay man is a specific a male variety, he’s still a man no matter how much lipstick and how many mannerisms.
As for stereotypes – too many of those, I agree, but why can’t people who actually do love fashion, Madonna, paintings with naked muscular men emerging from a stormy ocean, and kitchen gadgets, live it out to their heart’s content?
Btw – there’s nothing straight actors love more than playing the effeminate gay male character. FINALLY they can release a forbidden part of themselves! 🙂
D Smith
@Andrew:
actually nothing could be further from the case. gender does indeed have numerous biological factors involved… and while social and early developmental environments do nudge an individual one way or another… the “brain sex” of an individual is most likely formed quite early in fetal development. below are a few listed studies that show (some of) the biological evidence for trans sexuality for instance… which arguably gives us the best insight to how gender forms in the developmental cycle and how early environment effects the eventual outcome. and before anyone freaks and tells me i am off my rocker… i myself and trans… and a psychology major, this is my specialty… its what i do.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=510
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7689007.stm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu3.htm
none of these studies can point to a causal effect of trans sexuality… but they do provide support for neural-biological causes for trans sexuality, and i can assure you there is a mountain of such material.
lookyloo
Wait. What’s a ‘masculine’ gay guy? Is anyone who’s not ‘femme’ considered ‘masculine’? I’m an average guy. Am I ‘masculine’? BTW, I have no hostility towards effeminate guys but I don’t like that so many queeny types are on tv and movies and reality-type media. Rare is there a gay guy who’s just an average guy. So, I am frustrated by how the gay community accepts this perpetuation of the effeminate stereotype. The ethnic-minority groups stood up in the 80’s when only criminals were played by a black or latinos on tv and they were non-existant as news anchors and onscreen reporters. It’s hard enough for young men feel okay being gay, let alone to come out. But It’s, I think, extra lonely for young ‘average’ guys when they’re young and the main gay representation in the media be something they can’t relate to in any way.
Chipsy
Gay is all about sex and femmes just aint sexy. Mind you, neither are ‘masculine’ gays – which is why everyone wants to watch straight guys in porn.
Jeff
Sorry. I just don’t think Eric or Erik or whatever his name is — I don’t think he’s all that masculine.
Kieran
There are all different kinds of gay people in the world just as there are all different kinds of straight people. But you’d never know it watching American media. The problem is the media deliberately chooses to highlight effeminate, stereotypical gay people as representative of ALL gay people. For instance Erik here would have little chance of being chosen as the gay correspondent on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Erik doesn’t fit the mold. When it comes to gay people, the media seems to want a Ross Mathews type to present to the American heartland because, let’s face it, straights love to laugh at the gay stereotype and be able to say, “there but for the grace of God….” It reassuring to them to think that they can put ALL gay people into a neat little effeminate, high-pitched box. The problem is not that there are effeminate or campy gay men out there, it’s that this one segment of the community has come to represent the entirety of what it is to be gay according to most of the media.
Jimmi
I appreciate his honesty and candor. I think that so many gay men get hostile to their effeminate brothers because it makes them feel as if the spot light is on them. Until you are really comfortable with yourself and accept yourself, you will be self-hating to a degree.
James L. Greenlee
“As for stereotypes – too many of those, I agree, but why can’t people who actually do love fashion, Madonna, paintings with naked muscular men emerging from a stormy ocean, and kitchen gadgets, live it out to their heart’s content?”
Acck! And there you go stereotyping? I’m a Madonna fan from way back, and I love kitchen gadgets. But I couldn’t pull off a “Jack McFarland” attitude to save my life.
Dawson
I think assimilation is definitely a goal of some people. I think it upsets some people when they realize that when most people think gay they think “queeny” and “feminine.” It doesn’t help that the media helps to reinforce this stereotype at every given turn. Just look at this season of “Big Brother” and Reagan.
Dawson
@Hilarious: So basically your response to “there not being a roving gang of masc men digging on fems” or whatever the hell you said is to become a masc men that digs on fems in your very post. Gee, I feel sorry for your sad assimilation driven “minority” of masculine men that are “driven down” or whatever by more fem men. When truth be told, a lot more gay men would be a lot more fem if they just felt comfortable actually expressing themselves.
rrrr
is he really a masc? lmao
James L. Greenlee
“When truth be told, a lot more gay men would be a lot more fem if they just felt comfortable actually expressing themselves.”
That’s a very interesting statement. I was so paranoid about being perceived as a “sissy” from such an early age, I rejected anything frilly or girly (well, except for an Easy Bake Oven!). Always went for the hyper-masculine toys. No floral prints or lace for curtains or bedding. If not for this paranoia, who knows how I’d have turned out? We’ll never know.
Zach
@Dawson:
No, there would be a lot more closeted gay men coming out if they weren’t constantly being beat over the head with the message that if they’re gay they’re innately feminine.
Forrest
These days it’s hard to tell if trendy guys are hipster or gay or both. Hence the “Hipster or Gay” site, ( which sadly has expired)
I dress pretty funky and shop at UO and AA along with thrift stores, and I just blend in with the stores,clubs and alt,emo or whatever you wanna call the circles I inhabit.
Most Gays guys that tend to be more conservative in manner don’t bother me and my friends go across the spectrum.
Just in my experience those that do hate on us tend to have self loathing issues…..
axos
@James L. Greenlee:
Then maybe you’re not Jack – you’re Will! 🙂
Hilarious
@Dawson: You feel sorry for me? Read that post again and realize how stupid you sound.
Not all gay men are effeminate. Not all straight men are masculine.
Some of us are in between and perfectly balanced.
Get over yourself.
L.
@Hilarious: And *there* I agree with you completely (as I’ve often done on other topics.) I only disagreed with your earlier statement, and still will.
(I can’t very well agree with you at all times, can I, or else people will think I’m your sockpuppet.)
james_from_the_great_city_of_cambridge
@Hilarious: Hilarious, now that the “Gay or Hipster” site is defunct, you should have one of your own where we can decide if you’re “Gay or a Jackass.”
Gofer David
We all have our insecurities but I love when you come across some gay guys profile online that claims to want someone straight acting, meanwhile he has nude shots and is a bttm
Hilarious
@james_from_the_great_city_of_cambridge: All you’ve done is post random insults because you’re mad over an article posted a long time ago. That’s so sad and pathetic it’s ridiculous.
Try staying on topic.
Trying to “win” on the internet with your little internet grudge is just plain stupid.
Jeffree
Let’s not forget LLTTLJ: Looks like Tarzan, Talks like Jane: that man of mystery who clearly spends hours at the gym daily, uses very “butch” gestures, dresses masc. but —-TADA opens his mouth—and sounds like a giddy prom queen winner !
That’s not a value judgement;it just surprises me every time I meet a guy like that !
[
And it didnt stop me from going out with them either….]
Erik
Hey guys, this is Erik. I’ve enjoyed reading your comments and discussing. It seems quite a few people have opinions on this subject. It was really interesting reading all of the responses!
Erik
sasha
I think femmes bring out the gay in everyone and some people deal with it better, also there is the humor factor that alot of femmes have and you have to have a sense of humor and hold your own. Individuality helps more than labels. Everyone is gay.
Rick Brannon
I can throw a tantrum AND a football.
Jeffree
Any guy who’s comfortable with himself will be attractive. It’s the guys who try to be something theyre not, who fighht their own nature who won’t be so alluring.
i’m sure that applies to wymyn too, but my expertise there is kinda low…..
That Guy
As a 20 year old gay man who came out of the closet at 15, I’ve found that while we claim to have “unity” as a community, we fail to see our own shortcomings.
I’d safely classify myself as “masculine”. I’m a car guy, I enjoy heavy metal, and I couldn’t even sing a show tune if I tried. And while I tried to distance myself from the guys that were more in touch with their feminine side in high school, I’ve finally realized that the common ground we share is so much more important than the differences we have.
While I won’t say I’m attracted to effeminate guys, I still see them as brothers in this big gay family. If my straight friends see a queeny boy and start cracking jokes in hushed voices, I’ll glare at them and remind them that I’m not so different from them, and to treat them with the same respect that they give me.
Which brings me to the question: how can we demand tolerance and respect from the heteros if we cannot respect the different members of our beloved tribe? The rainbow flag sums it all up for me: the different colors represent all of the different kinds of LGBT people, yet they are all part of the same spectrum. We are all part of the same family, and I feel that we cannot truly move forward until we can fully comprehend and understand that.
Jeffree
@That Guy #56: Well said!
I’ll admit that I passed thru a phase of wanting 2 distance myself from some of the more effeminate guys. But then I got to know them: the same way really, how we get to know anybody: Ask them questions about their lives, where theyre from, what life is like for them.
Get to know them a little & you reaize you may have more in common than you ever knew.
Some face bigger challenges than I ever even imagined. I don’t get picked out of a crowd first, just for being gay. They can & do get singled out. Too often.
That makes many of them far more brave than I might ever be.
The really sad thing is that many of them say what they face is more likely to come from a gay man than a str8 one…..
Rob Wilson
I’m a masc bottom. ENough said.
L.
@Rick Brannon: I wish there was a way to multiple thumb-up. Your post made me giggle (but in a fairly masc way.)
Sissy San Francisco
I’ve been called a little girl and harassed by “masculine” gay men even in San Francisco. In the movie the Butch Factor I talk about what it can be like growing up effeminate. Click my name for the essay – Sissy.
Blaine Ward
It’s a little something called internalized homophobia.
ewe
It is insecurity when someone puts someone else down they don’t like because they are acting differently than the aggressors perceptions on any topic he/she would allow themselves to accept. In other words, if you don’t think like me then there is something wrong with you. That is the attitude of mean queens and dumb muscle fags. The rest of the world thinks that way too. No difference. Image is everything to some people and they have no idea that what they think of themselves is not what they are delivering.
adman
I work for a man who is completely manly in the physical sense, in top shape, conservative dressing, Thick macho body, etc.(albeit with impeccable grooming and a great tailor) and with effeminate mannerisms (and a partner for 28 years now). He is the sexiest man, I mean a crush on him goes without saying. Everyone has a crush on him; men, women, neighbors, colleagues, strangers, sheesh, squirrels in the park! Seriously, EVERYONE. What about him? Confidence and poise speak volumes about a man, ANY man, where he has been, how he developed himself, etc. This guy, Don, has given me and my partner a theory, that we are all hyper attuned to masculinity, and it’s many forms of beauty by our culture.We all stay attuned to masculinity to be well adapted, and we’re used to equating masculine “beauty” with it’s closest derivative, personal power. We may demonize the effeminate man unconsciously, but we do it as a form of insecurity. Once you see the truth of the man who offers himself as a gentleman, who genuinely embraces life and those around him no matter the circumstances, you are a western individual, and whether he is gay or straight, femme or no, at least a part of you will be saying hmmmmm….
BillySaint
I used to be a real prick about drag queens and their mouthy meanderings. Then after 3 years of taunting by my straight acting gay friends to do drag with them on Halloween in SF, I finally decided to put on “the dress”. I had the absolute best fucking time of my life. Now I have no issues with drag queens, though I never put on a dress again. It was a great way to get to know them and release my judgments. I had to “walk in their shoes”, well ok, high-heels, to get the message there were warm wonderful people behind those bawdy exteriors. It brings up that old saying “if ya can’t beat em, join em”. Even if it’s for one night.
james
I have hostility towards obviously gay actors who marry women. Michael C Hall from six feet under and now DEXTER. This guy still has the same gay drawl as the straight dexter character as he did when played the gay undertaker. His wife in real life plays his sister on DEXTER. He doesn’t pass for straigtht unlike other closet queens like Keanu Reeves.
nikko
@Michael: Paradoxically, it looks and is very masculine for two guys to make out, regardless of how femme they behave. Hot!!
Mysanthropic Destiny
I’m pretty much a straight acting gay guy (except I’m polite, respectful, and I know how to cook), but I admit that feminine guys (not just feminine gay guys_ grate on me. Its not that I dislike them, its just an incongruity in my opinion. I am attracted to “men.” Not just anatomically, but personality and emotionally. I got for guys that are aloof, emotionally guarded, and don;t give much of a shit over labels (clothes), hair (they spend less than 10 minutes on it, tops!), and don’t sing girl pop songs or have the lyrics memorized. People like what they like. I’ve encountered quite a few hot guys (who may or may not be gay) and they were feminine…and the attraction went cold.
How it is.
Aaron
@Michael: What an incredibly sexist comment. Who ever said sucking dick wasn’t macho? Sex acts like that should have no label on them other than sexual. You’re operating under the idea that because women are traditionally supposed to do it, it MUST not be macho. Bullshit.
Aaron
I’m a very contradictory person when it comes to the “stereotypes”, about what is effeminate and what is masculine. Especially when it comes to popular culture. I Love Madonna and Lady Gaga, as I find them brilliant songwriters and musicians in general- on the other hand, I love Silent Stream of Godless Elegy (Pagan/Doom/Folk Metal), Ensiferum (Viking/Folk Metal) and other Heavy Metal (subgenre) bands. I also love Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, Goldfrapp, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc… I’ve got no qualms about wearing Purple, but can’t wear pink unless it’s over white. I watch and love The Rocky Horror Picture Show, Were the World Mine, Teen Witch, Xanadu and adore many classic actors/actresses that are “gay idols”. I also love Aliens, Taxi Driver, Pulp Fiction, etc. and I will watch and enjoy some “chick flicks”. But then again, I tend to go for quality over genre. Quality knows no bounds (and yes, Teen Witch and Xanadu are bad movies, but they’re hilariously bad). I do really love some fashion… though what I love tends to be dorky and what most fashion-loving Gays would probably categorize as dorky and/or outdated. But fuck them. I can appreciate Steampunk if I fucking want. I also don’t talk with a lisp or constantly flail my hands about when talking. Nor do I spend any time on my hair. No, I mean literally no time. I don’t even comb it. I played with dolls as kid…. but I also played with legos and enjoyed War games and playing games about Star Wars. I can’t stand watching sports, but enjoy playing them. But I’m rambling.
And I’m also not gay. I’m Bisexual. So maybe that has something to do with it. I definitely notice that a lot of Bisexual guys act more “straight” than most Gay guys. I’ll leave you guys to ponder that. I myself go for “straight acting” men, or even really “straight” guys themselves… you know, the ones who are really bi and just need a few beers in them before you can make out/suck them. I just don’t find it very attractive. But I wouldn’t discount somebody for it… I also consider myself a genuine nerd, and people in the Nerd community tend to be pretty diverse and tolerant.
Oh yeah, and this guy is damn hot.
James
@Hilarious:
OK…..I’m gonna stop you right there!!! I’ve experienced this gay homophobia. I am a VERRRRYYYYY feminine and flamboyant gay man. I went to a GAY bar and I happened to be wearing eye shadow and lip gloss. And this masc couple was glaring at me and asked my friend( who is masc), “Why do you hang out with that flamer????”. Soooooooooo it isn’t non existant. Just because all you’ve seen is rejection by fem gay men on Grindr, some of us wish we were so lucky!
finisher
You guys know its true
How do you know the so called bitchieness of the fem maybe a defense mech
Sean
lol in my feminine opinion i see it as totally obvious whats wrong with all of us! only being a gay teen of 15 out a year having no taste of gay culture this is just my opinion ,but it seems to me that the problem is we all seem soooo uptight! in my opinion love is something that is essential to a happy life. you need love on some level. and i think its safe to say that we are all looking for our different but equal love <3 someone who compliments us with there differences but also with there similarities. i am totally obsessed with Broadway and its been my dream to win a tony since i first saw Julie Andrews in the sound of music in kindergarten after discovering it was originally on something fabulous called Broadway. the point of bringing this up is i think i could easily play straight men on Broadway but cant pass for it off the stage. just to give you an idea of how i view myself 🙂 well any way back to the point. we all know what we want as Joanna Gleason sang first in into the woods as the bakers wife "if you know, what you want, then you go, and you find it ,and you get it. and you bid and you fight and you bargain or you'll live to regret it" what i use these beautiful words of Stephen Sondheim to say is that you cant just sit around and wait for love to find you but you have to find it and get it. that's not to say that you go out everyday and constantly look for it because in my opinion desperate doesn't sell. and in life our store is not dependent on making as many sales as we can we just need that one big one to set us for life! and since we are only looking for one big sale the little ones don't even matter! if we weren't so uptight and kept in mind that we only need one then we could blow off the trial and error sales! in my opinion if a store doesn't have exactly what your heart desires then you walk out and try down the street! if i walk into express and they don't have the perfect vest and fedora with the matching bow-tie i walk out and try someplace else. and i am pretty sure we shouldn't be afraid to walk right into Belk and see if they have what we want. any one who kicks you out of there store for knowing what you want, how to get it, and trying to buy it because they think your it! is not really what your looking for! there are millions of stores in the world and when you don't find what you want in one you move your little ass along!!!!! this in my opinion goes for every human being on the planet. and in life like in shopping you already know what outfit you have in mind and it just comes naturally to you. we life what we like and can only love what feels natural. if your what you consider masculine and want what you consider masculine then go find it and don't let one of us flamboyant bitches "i don't consider myself that BTW lol unless your one to me i just consider myself with words like soft, sweet, expressive, passive and the like." keep you from it. the same goes for everyone. my guy who i sure as hell am gonna find is masculine and he doesn't act-straight i hate that saying but think i feel why you use it, he just acts how he feels natural just like me! and i usually don't feel the same way about masculine men as my friends do. they usually think the kind i like and am capable of loving "which i know that could change" is nothing but a gorilla lol. but i like to call him the perfect protective assertive giant gay teddy bear man 🙂 <3 and i like to feel my eyes are open as well as my mind to what ever male form he is out there in! i personally like what my friends would change. i like the pigheaded crude unkempt take charge attitude and personality of the men i am attracted to. i like the big bulky slightly pudgy build. lean and cut is a total turn off! and abs are ok but i do prefer just a strong gut. the point is we should all be more laid back and confident. and just remember that love seems like shopping. and if you cant relate or even know what a cardigan or fedora is, just think of your loves as shopping for footballs, soccer balls, drills, plungers, ball peen hammers, video games, stud finders, Alan wrenches, and the like or anything else you buy that you could put in place. lol again only fifteen out a year no taste of gay culture in the as hell deep south but i think this has some pretty applicable info.
Mysanthropic Destiny
I’m not aggressive to feminine gays, but I am not attracted to them. I will admit, very feminine men, be they straight, gay, or whatever, because society associates so many negative connotations to men acting feminine. Its the stereotype they choose to identify us as because any female like trait is considered a weakness and unwanted (which tires more into a androcenrtic society that sees women as inferior (be it actively or unconsciously).
I can only speculate that some “masculine” gays see feminine gays and see them as the reason as to why straight society (men in particular) are so hostile towards us.