You feel quite similar to me, then. Many people think I am a far right wing Republican when they hear me talk about taxes, privacy or states rights. Then they hear me talk about queer rights, public transit or the environment and they lump me in with Democrats.

In all honesty, I cannot stand either party. The reasons are many, but the manner in which Democrats use the gay community disgusts me. They are our best friends when they need votes, once they have what they want, they are done with us, throwing an occasional bone to us not withstanding. And they stood idly by while Bush raped this country, most of the time complicit in it.

As long as we are stupid enough to continue to play the game, they’ll keep using us. People need to wake the fuck up. Both parties have a few good ideas between them, but neither party is right and the other wrong and they are both manipulative, cunning, calculating, out of touch and deceitful.

I vote for a specific candidates in races where I believe someone worthy of support exists. I skip the other races and cast no vote at all. In Oklahoma, if you write a name in, your ballot is invalidated. We don’t do write ins here.

You know, I think if you actually did some thinking you might come up with something to say. Insulting may be fun, but insight is much better. Stop blaming others for your comments – or lack there of.

You idea that we must simply “believe we are equal” and we will be equal is juvenile. If the majority of Americans believed we were equal – we wouldn’t be trying to create our equality.

All of the thoughtful comments here recognize that simple fact. It’s even beyond juvenile to suggest that anyone here said we believed we were not equal.

So, if you want to engage in conversation – please try to be honest and keep it at more mature level.

If you both want to think that you’re not equal to straight people I’m not going to stop you. There will always be some silly queers who actually enjoy being beaten up by the str8 boys, that’s entirely your privilege. I’m just not going to argue it any longer because its completely useless to try to make you understand that what other people think doesn’t decide whether you’re equal or not.

Enjoy your self loathing. Those of us without the inferiority complexes will enjoy our equality.

I think if you actually made a point, people would respond. But, you don’t actually say anything. Plus, could you please find your *shift* key and try using it? I know it’s hard, but come on, please try.

Way too many sarcasm pills and you were doing so well. Get some rest.

you are right, if only all the gays banded together and did one big carebear stare across the 50 states, then i wouldnt need equal protection, because my heart would be so filled with love that i would shit pink sparkles.

i forgot, whatever you think i said is what i said! so youre right, im totally content with waiting 50 years for equality. thats what i said. i also think youre right, blacks and women arent equal, because they forgot to make everyone love them before they got civil rights. its makes so much more sense to me now, thanks andrew. if only there were more people who could not read anything i wrote and decide my talking points for me!

Who suggested you do that? It is your failure to see the advantage of changing “public support” (or opinion) that is troubling. If the LGBT Community changed public opinion – you wouldn’t need laws to protect you – you’d be equal.

The bigger challenge for all of us is to create equality by changing minds and enrolling support from fair-minded fellow citizens. Maybe that’s the more difficult path, but why would you totally avoid it in favor of laws? Laws didn’t end racism or sexism – where do you get your confidence? It seems ill-placed, unless you’re content with waiting another 50 years fro equality. Some of us want to do everything we can – now. the sooner, the better.

Who suggested “snapping our fingers?”

i never said that, you must have the same tunnel vision disease as andrew. equality does not happen overnight. the role of women and of racial tolerance have and will continue to take years. youtube isnt going to flip a switch and make people over 50 more tolerant.

As for the Senate and Congress being two different things… Try and get all of your laws passed in the House of Reps, while completely ignoring the Senate entirely. Go for it.

i was pointing out that they are not synonymous. squares and rectangles people. square and rectangles…

and what do i care about your opinion, its opinion. you dont have a time machine. most lgbt people couldnt have dreamed we would have come this far since the 80s. since reagan. of course there is opposition, of course there is work to be done. think rfk.

So this is how democracy works – laws are there, and perhaps they’re comforting. But unless they have public support behind them, they don’t change a whole lot. Because the public either won’t follow the laws, will resent the laws and their beneficiaries, or will fight like hell to get rid of those laws (see Abortion for details).

which brings up a point, lawrence v texas was supreme court, row v wade, supreme court, this is another part of democracy. and there is also the possibility that equal marriage will be implemented by the justices.

But if you have public support, then – wonder of wonders – you have the votes you need to pass your laws. You have the pressure of numbers to place on politicians, or the power to elect new ones. And the support is already there, so you don’t have to panic about enforcement or repeal. And best of all the laws would be received as natural, not imposed. Life would actually change. Now. Not decades later.

Aren’t civics lessons fun? Beat that, SHR.

sure, in an ideal world. but i am not withdrawing my support for laws to be changed, enacted, repealed, etc. just because public support isnt with me.

Andrew Sullivan said: “The real reason for the invention of hate crimes was a hard-left critique of conventional liberal justice and the emergence of special interest groups which need boutique legislation to raise funds for their large staffs and luxurious buildings.”

Most every commentary I have read said the Hate Crimes Bill was mostly “symbolic” and mostly insignificant. Unless you are working for Gay Inc. and trying to generate more donations, please try to remain objective.

right, so thats why its so easy for me to cross the border without my passport, those homeland security and border customs and immigration laws really were no impedance.

of course, banning smoking in restaurants, or state/federal buildings as if that mattered… laws do nothing to influence or dictate behavior.

and beliefs, well, instating the draft during viet nam, how could that have ever changed anyone beliefs…

Or you think we just can’t apply that opportunity to gays? It’s absurd.

As for the Senate and Congress being two different things… Try and get all of your laws passed in the House of Reps, while completely ignoring the Senate entirely. Go for it. See how quick it gets to the President’s desk. First thing you’ll find is that the House is almost as set against us as the Senate and – OMGZ – that means the whole congress! Second, you’ll find – woah big surprise – those politicians are not going to be changing their minds! Because of their own beliefs, or because of the beliefs of the people who elected them. When 70% of a pol’s state says “don’t you vote for those queers,” that politician is going to have to have a real personal revelation to vote for something like gay marriage. And just for fairy tales and fun, let’s imagine that once upon a time you get that law passed through the Senate (Part of the Congress!). How many days do you think it will be until a) those brave politician’s constituents are electing someone who will vote the way they want to get that thing repealed, or b) lawsuits start getting filed by civil servants who don’t want to officiate gay weddings (see Louisiana for details). And that’s one of them crimeless laws! Can you smell the equality?

But you just want us to focus on the laws so that what… we get some trickle down tolerance, just because the Law says so? How long do you expect that to take? Should we measure our equality in deaths?

So this is how democracy works – laws are there, and perhaps they’re comforting. But unless they have public support behind them, they don’t change a whole lot. Because the public either won’t follow the laws, will resent the laws and their beneficiaries, or will fight like hell to get rid of those laws (see Abortion for details). But if you have public support, then – wonder of wonders – you have the votes you need to pass your laws. You have the pressure of numbers to place on politicians, or the power to elect new ones. And the support is already there, so you don’t have to panic about enforcement or repeal. And best of all the laws would be received as natural, not imposed. Life would actually change. Now. Not decades later.

Aren’t civics lessons fun? Beat that, SHR.

Please explain how a “law” will prevent a “hate crime” from actually happening? Or other laws intended to punish discrimination? In fact, they simply make the bad guys work harder, that’s all. Instead of being fired for being “gay” they can pick one of dozens of other “reasons.”

Believing laws actually change behavior or anyone’s beliefs is completely unsubstantiated.

You think telling me I have no right to celebrate is not bullying?

Your dishonest attack here continues your bullying approach with others. Sullivan has been attacking hate crimes legislation– long with a woman’s right to a safe abortion– for over a decade with screeds like this:

“The real reason for the invention of hate crimes was a hard-left critique of conventional liberal justice and the emergence of special interest groups which need boutique legislation to raise funds for their large staffs and luxurious buildings.”

Savage is less consistent on this issue, but rarely lets a chance to kick the gay community in general in the teeth pass him by.

They are bad, bullying people.

No, the Senate is part of the Congress. In fact, nothing get by them, making the +60 Senators that are Anti-LGBT a really, really big problem.

If you don’t get that, raise your hand and I will give you a Wiki address.

In Post 89 you said: “im all for changing the hearts and minds, but laws prevent the very acts from existing in the first place.”

That was you.

When did I say that? You keep arguing against a wall since you arent listenign to word i’ve said.

Since when do all laws involve crime? Since when do all laws involve forcing people to do something; I’m specifically citing laws that if passed would ‘allow’ us to do something we are currently unable.

You said trying to achieve “equality” would take decades and yet you offer no evidence of that.

wow, what world do you live in? mister mtv over here needs a reality check. shit happens over time, equality doesnt happen overnight. im not goign to debate this, its a fact, not an opinion.

You also suggest that “equal rights” are obtainable “through Congress in a matter of years.” really? Two-thirds of the US Senate is opposed to the repeal of DOMA. It’s almost as bad for ENDA and DADT. For 50 years we have tried to change votes and we couldn’t even get the Hate crimes Law passed affirmatively.

i wont bother to debate this either. someone needs to go back and watch some schoolhouse rocks videos about how a bill becomes law. keep rewinding it until you figure out the part where the congress and senate are two different things.

It had to be used to hold the Defense Spending Bill hostage.

so? your point being? so now every gay bill has to be passed alone, or attached to a bill that queerty website username andrew personally agrees with? lame.

Finally, you proclaim: “im all for changing the hearts and minds, but laws prevent the very acts from existing in the first place.”

Laws do not prevent anything – they punish those who break those laws.

ill say it again, NOT ALL LAWS EXIST SIMPLY TO PREVENT CRIME. do you even bother reading what i wrote, or are you so blinded by your arrogance that you just type whatever your mad little pea brain is crapping out at that moment.

They also don’t change hearts and minds, either. The “unfriendly” passage of the Hates Crime Bill has only angered the opposition.

really? so now you need a law to be passed with the warm embrace of those FUNDAMENTALLY OPPOSED TO ITS EXISTANCE. sweet. you make me type all caps. actually, its because i think youre either an idiot, which was my first and long holding guess, or youre a troll, which makes you a bored idiot.either way there isnt much deviance in the wording.

Changing hearts and minds is the key to our equality. If you are “all for it” then stay in the conversation and figure out how we can do that. It is not being done now and I gather from your comments you recognize the merits.

sure, we can start by passing the laws we need to exist on an equal platform. next…

It is not necessary to replace one target (equal rights laws) with another (equality), they can support each other. I believe we may need some laws, but ultimately we don’t actually want them – we want equality. If we had equality, we wouldn’t be discussing “equal rights.”

speak for yourself, i want laws changed. you are never ever going to become equal while you are forced to drink from a separate water fountain by law.

Andrew Sullivan and Dan Savage did not say the Hate Crimes Bill was “bad,” they said “insignificant.” Plus, they way it was passed is very telling – it hardly qualifies as a “victory.”

Nobody on here has suggested that any legislation is “bad” and nobody is bullying anyone. Get over your angst.

We have been discussing the difference between “equal rights” and actual “equality.” Please feel free to comment.

That is relevant because bullies think victims deserve it. The gay men who have convinced us that hate crimes legislation is bad– Andrew Sullivan and Dan Savage– are bullies who often attack gay people in order to increase their own fame. The gay men trying to bully other people here in to believing this legislation is worthless are not out friends.

This bill is a good thing for gay people. We need to keep pushing, but we also need to celebrate our victories.

This is one.

I’m mad at John Arovosis and others for pushing DADT and DOMA before ENDA. ENDA is what matters most. Hate Crimes legislation matters more to me than DADT, because it will protect people in communities where they do not have support from the a large LBGT community, the people must likely to have hate crimes against them go uninvestigated.