THINGS WE WONDER ABOUT — Why are a group of people who, by their own admission have zero first-hand knowledge about sex or the expression of sexuality, being treated as teachers (by their parishes) and experts (by the media) on these very topics? [Religion Dispatches]
things we wonder about
Why Are Churches Even Remotely Considered to Be Experts on Sexuality?
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Brian NYC
Control. Religion is about control.
romeo
My father’s family was nominally catholic. When I was a kid I used to hear the “rhythm method” referred to. I thought it made the catholics cool because I thought they were talking about the actual fucking. Big letdown when I finally got clued in.
Tallskin
Too true and not just for issues around sex and sexuality, but also around morality in general. I mean why are followers of a non-existent sky pixie believed to be more moral or ethical than those that are non-followers? It’s absurd.
Over here in the Uk on talk radio 4 the other morning there was some pervert christian bishop talking about the lack of religious programmes on the BBC. When the announcer said, well, why should there be? The pervert christian shaman replied, rather haughtily, that “people” demanded it because the church gave moral and ethical advice!
I nearly screamed at the radio – WHAT?? What annoyed me is the announcer didn’t follow up this crass remark from the pervert Bishop and demand the wanker tell him what morality and ethics exactly he was referring to?
Did he mean the sky pixie worshippers in Uganda about to pass a law to kill gays?
Did he mean the sky pixie worshippers in Iraq hacking each other to pieces over who is a shiite or Shia?
Or possibly he meant the sky pixie worshippers in Northern Ireland? (With that evangelical nutjob Mary Robinson and her 19 year boyfriend?)
Perhaps he means the catholic priests who have a taste for pre-pubescent boy arse?
Or the sky pixie worshipping Taliban who toppled walls on gays and forbade education for girls?
I could go on.
But there’s nothing remotely more moral about sky pixie worshippers.
fradiavolo
“Zero first-hand knowledge about sex”? Hah! Just ask any victim of clerical pedophilia.
NAP79
I had the misfortune of attending Catholic schools for 12 years and was taught sex education by a nun of all people. In the class on masturbation she was having trouble getting the class to pay attention and yelled “Class! Settle down and let’s get to the matter at hand!” We all laughed hysterically but she didn’t get it. Catholics just have absolutely no clue whatsoever.
schlukitz
Why Are Churches Even Remotely Considered to Be Experts on Sexuality?
Because there are an awful lot of people who obviously love being told what to do. ;P
josh
there are some people trying to at least get the two sides (christians and GLBT community) to talk to one another http://vimeo.com/9195652
believe
Deviant old decrepit men have nothing better to do than pretend to the rest of the world that they have the golden keys to knowledge. Actually, it’s quite the opposite.
Brian NYC
@josh: To talk about what? Until religion stops teaching people homosexuals are wrong we will continue to be branded as defective and deviant.
The only “talk” they should have is a demand that they stop the teachings about us. Nothing else can come of it. Only morons want to be “tolerated” or “accepted.” There’s nothing wrong with us. “Gay Christian” sounds like mental illness to me.
schlukitz
No. 7 · josh
there are some people trying to at least get the two sides (christians and GLBT community) to talk to one another http://vimeo.com/9195652
In the same way that they are “talking” to one another in Uganda, Josh? That’s a pretty one-sided example of “talking” to each other, to my way of thinking.
Talk. Talk. Talk. While tens of thousands of LGBT people around the world commit suicide and get abused, beaten, imprisoned, tortured and murdered. Sorry, Josh. These are not topics worthy of discussion or debate.
They are out-and-out wrong, criminal acts and there will never be anything whatsoever to “talk” about until such time as they cease committing these heinous crimes against humanity. In the meantime, those who perpetrate those crimes, in the name of Jesus, God, Muhammad or whatever insane religious beliefs that they hold, should be prosecuted for their actions just like any other criminal.
As someone else pointed out on another thread, Neville Chamberlain went to a meeting with Hitler to discuss “Peace in our time.” We all know how that turned out, don’t we.
As the old Indian Chief once said “Heap big talk, and no say anything.”
Cassandra
“”Gay Christian” sounds like mental illness to me.”
Homophobes describe homosexuality as a mental illness.
Atheists describe religion as a mental illness.
This commonality is not a coincidence.
Both claims are delusional, which actually is a mental illness, ironically.
schlukitz
No. 11 · Cassandra
Both claims are delusional, which actually is a mental illness, ironically.
Gays being demonized by religion is delusional?
Really now? That’s a very clever play on words, Cassandra but, tell me, what would you describe sitting on the fence as?
Would refusing to see reality be a good start?
Oh…and while you’re at it, perhaps you could you name a couple of atheist organizations that are spending millions and are hell-bent on seeing to it that LGBt people are denied of their civil rights and remain second-class citizens?
schlukitz
And this from USA Today.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/02/christian-churches-in-canada-fading-out-usa-next/1
B
No. 10 · schlukitz wrote, “As someone else pointed out on another thread, Neville Chamberlain went to a meeting with Hitler to discuss ‘Peace in our time.’ We all know how that turned out, don’t we.”
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/munich.html has a quote of what Neville Chamberlain actually was saying (i.e., more than a sound bite). It ended with the following statement: “One good thing, at any rate, has come out of this emergency through which we have passed. It has thrown a vivid light upon our preparations for defense, on their strength and on their weakness. I should not think we were doing our duty if we had not already ordered that a prompt and thorough inquiry should be made to cover the whole of our preparations, military and civil, in order to see, in the light of what has happened during these hectic days, what further steps may be necessary to make good our deficiencies in the shortest possible time.”
He fed “peace in our time” to the press, but he ordered a military buildup just in case.
Brian
Religion? No thanks.
I prefer Disney. At least they update their fairy tales.
B
There’s a disconnect between QUEERTY’s spin and the text it points to. What http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/religiousright/2275/new_report:_more_sex_in_the_pulpit actually says is:
——
While religious conservatives are vocal on issues of sexuality—from pre-marital sex to masturbation to abortion—progressive religious leaders have largely ‘abstained’ from discussing these matters in the pulpit. A new report urges more clergy education and openness on sexuality issues.
…
The silence has its roots in seminaries. Clergy are mum from behind the pulpit because the country’s priests, rabbis, imams and other religious leaders come to their posts having received next to zero sex education at the seminary or anywhere else. Over 90 percent of seminaries don’t require a full semester of sexuality study.
——-
It’s like what Lao Tsu said: “Those who know do not speak; those who speak do not know.” At least the progressives know they weren’t taught anything on the subject and have the sense to keep quiet.
schlukitz
No. 14 · B
And your point was…?
Former MCC believer
@B: More cut-n-paste? We can go to Wiki, too.
Scott NY'er
@schlukitz: B never has a point. He just cuts and pastes. He loves looking smart. He doesn’t know that we know otherwise.
B
No. 17 · schlukitz wrote, “No. 14 · B And your point was…?”
Obviously that a simplistic reduction of a complex issue to “peace in our time” has little to do with reality.
No 18: “@B: More cut-n-paste? We can go to Wiki, too.” In case you didn’t notice, it was the link QUEERTY cited, and what was actually there had little if nothing to do with what QUEERTY said about it.
Seems you guys oversimplify a lot and then get upset when reality rears its ugly head.
Scott NY'er
@B: Seems B thinks she’s smart. Who wants to take a poll?
schlukitz
No. 16 · B
At least the progressives know they weren’t taught anything on the subject and have the sense to keep quiet.
Oh. I get it now. That’s why Obama, the church, the Mormons and all of the religious fundies only liken us gays with pedophiles, incest and bestiality.
It keeps thing simple (over-simplifiction, actually) and easily understandable by all the dumb fucks who buy into sky daddies, pixies and fairy-dust.
Cut that and paste it.
B
No. 22 · schlukitz wrote, “Oh. I get it now. That’s why Obama, the church, the Mormons and all of the religious fundies only liken us gays with pedophiles, incest and bestiality.”
In other words you are “factually challenged” – Obama in particular said no such thing. Nor do most churches, even some with silly theologies. Even the Dept of Justice said no such thing (in providing an argument for DOMA, a DoJ lawyer cited a precedent where state A did not have to recognize a marriage legal in state B if the marriage violated state A’s age of consent laws, and a similar case regarding how closely related a couple are as the rules differ from state to state, but the whole point was that states did not always have to recognize marriages from other states under existing law.) So, the statements were about the laws and precedents, not about gays per se.
“Cut that and paste it.” I.e., you don’t like it when factual material that shows your favorite statements just aren’t true is presented to you.
B
No. 19 · Scott NY’er posted a bunch of trash talk.
Scott – grow up. It’s childish to resort to such behavior just because you don’t like seeing factual material quoed, and there is no reason to go much beyond simply quoting that when you guys repeatedly ignore the facts, just as it is a waste of time to try to convince someone who believes the earth was created in exactly 7 days that the earth is really over a billion years old.
schlukitz
No. 23 · B
But the brief then proceeds to defend DOMA “on the merits” – using language that is factually incorrect, and arguments that (if adopted by the courts) would damage future attempts to secure gay rights. The Administration argued that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution does not bar states from denying out-of-state gay marriages, and they cited prior cases of out-of-state marriages that were between (a) an uncle and niece, (b) a 16-year-old and adult and (c) first cousins. Comparing same-sex marriage with incest and pedophilia is what one would expect from a Republican Administration, and for a court to agree with such reasoning is unhelpful.
Source:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-hogarth/obamas-doma-defense-unacc_b_215718.html
Marianne Seggerman
Subject covered – in great detail – in the book Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God.
Mike in Asheville, nee "in Brooklyn"
I am somewhat reluctant to mention this, as it certainly reveals that I am getting sooo old. Nonetheless, for those of us in the 50ish+ crowd, we had a bit of a folk hero in, none other than, Earl Butz, Secretary of Agriculture, under President Jerry Ford.
[[It was a short lived folk hero status as Butz later resigned other an offensively vulgar racist joke.]]
While in Rome during a world conference about food and hunger, Butz was asked about the Catholic Church and the Pope’s stands on sex matters.
Butz replied, using a mock Italian accent, about the pope:
“He no a playa the game; he no a maka the rules.”
schlukitz
No. 27 · Mike in Asheville, nee “in Brooklyn”
“He no a playa the game; he no a maka the rules.”
It certainly lends credence to the old saw Truth is often spoken in jest, doesn’t it, Mike? ;P
josh
@Brian NYC: Gay Christian sounds like a mental illness? So you can’t be gay and Christian? that’s pretty closed minded…so Christianity is only for straight people or what?
1EqualityUSA
Christ never mentioned gays, not even once. Being judgmental was talked about at length, but never gays. This should be noted.
josh
@Cassandra:
“”Gay Christian” sounds like mental illness to me.”
Homophobes describe homosexuality as a mental illness.
Atheists describe religion as a mental illness.
This commonality is not a coincidence.
Both claims are delusional, which actually is a mental illness, ironically.
Well said Cassandra
Brian NYC
@josh: Religion is the only thing that makes homosexuality wrong. Christians have branded us as wrong, sinful and deviant. This has caused ALL our pain, suffering and discrimination.
So, yeah, it really doesn’t make sense that we would want to support the institution that harmed us and continues to harm us.
If you insist on being a “gay Christian” get them to stop teaching children that homosexuals are wrong. Ending that belief is necessary. Covering that reality with rainbow flags doesn’t help – in fact, it only makes it worse.
josh
yeah i definitely agree a group of Christians – particularly fundamentalists – have done a TONE of damage and inflicted pain on the LGBT community for a long time.
I think it’s really important for gay people to be involved in Christian communities b/c so many Christians have a warped view of what gay people are like – via the media, negative stereotypes perpetuated by secular and religious institutions. people fear what they don’t know. And I think when a homophobic Christians meets and gets to know a gay Christians, that’s an opportunity to change their heart and mind…it’s not easy and takes time, but i think it helps in the long run.
and then you have the whole issue of Christian communities mobilizing politically against LGBT rights which is terrible and is not a true reflection of what Christians are supposed to do. Biblical law is one thing, but we live under the U.S. Constitution and that’s what needs to guide policy. Fundamentalist christians did a lot of damage and inflicted incredible harm during the whole prop 8 campaign.
i guess that’s just where i’m coming from..
Brian NYC
@josh: Then why not ask your particular brand of Christians to declare that homosexuality isn’t wrong. THAT is the only thing that will begin to end the idea that we are wrong.
“Being involved with Christian communities” is a lot like aiding and abetting the enemy – unless they formally change their beliefs.
1EqualityUSA
Brian NYC, These Christians are into making money, foolishly usurping the true power for vanity and worldliness. Since the Red Scare can no longer get people to fearfully dig deeply into their pockets, the Pink Scare will suffice. Money is the root of all evil. Don’t look to these insults as representative of Christ.
B
No. 25 · schlukitz wrote, “The Administration argued that the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution does not bar states from denying out-of-state gay marriages, and they cited prior cases of out-of-state marriages that were between (a) an uncle and niece, (b) a 16-year-old and adult and (c) first cousins.
Of course they cited those cases. They can’t use any case that would involve same-sex marriages as the argument would be circular. Miscegenation laws (which prevent people of different races from marrying) were declared unconstitutional decades ago. No state allows polygamous marriages, even Utah. So, the only legally valid reasons left for a state to not recognize a marriage from another state are when such a marriage would violate the minimum age requirement and when the couples are too closely related. So that’s what the cited – those were the only precedents they could use, and they came up simply because states sometimes differ on what the criteria is (e.g., the minimum age differing by a year or two).
Now, if there are other grounds for not recognizing a marriage from another state, all you have to do is cite them. But I don’t know of any that they could have cited instead. So instead of arguing about it, why don’t you simply cite some precedents? What’s your excuse? That you’ll be accused of “cutting and pasting” for (gasp) providing a short quote with a citation for where it came from?
“Comparing same-sex marriage with incest and pedophilia is what one would expect from a Republican Administration, and for a court to agree with such reasoning is unhelpful.” … which Obama’s Department of Justice clearly didn’t do. Rather a lawyer simply cited precedents and used the ones he could find, with a goal of merely showing that states did not always have to recognize marriages from other states.
What’s your problem with it? That a lawyer was doing his job? If so, I guess you’ll rant about Judge Walker if he ends up ruling in favor of Prop 8 but praise him if the ruling goes the other way, when in fact he’s probably just trying to fulfill the responsibilities of his office.
schlukitz
No. 29 · josh
So you can’t be gay and Christian? that’s pretty closed minded…so Christianity is only for straight people or what?
No one ever said that you can’t be gay and Christian.
But, when one considers the tremendous amount of harm Christianity has brought down on the heads of LGBT over the past two thousand plus years, it begs the fundamental question WHY would any gay person even want to be a Christian?
It is not the desire for a divine higher power that some members of our community feel the need for that troubles atheists like me.
It is the willingness to be used and abused abused by an organization that has twisted the need for divine inspiration into an ugly monster that preys on the poor and uneducated and uses it’s power and wealth to harm people who have done absolutely nothing to harm them.
schlukitz
No. 34 · Brian NYC
“Being involved with Christian communities” is a lot like aiding and abetting the enemy – unless they formally change their beliefs.
An excellent analogy, Brian.
They are either fer or agin us. Sitting on the fencepost doesn’t help anyone and making nicey-nice with the enemy strikes me as a total waste of time, money and energy.
As you have said time and time again, going after the hearts and minds of sane, intelligent and thinking people whose viewpoints can be changed, makes the most sense.
I co-sign that.
schlukitz
No. 36 · B
The copier and paster, per excellence, quotes me as having said something I did NOT say and it is disingenuous of you to make that statement.
And stating that I will rant if Judge Walker rules in favor of Prop 8 is also disingenuous. I am NOT desirous of seeing the LGBT community remain without it’s rights. And as I said in an earlier rebuttal to you “Your point is…?”
If you cannot argue your case without twisting everything to fit your narrow perspective of how things are, and lying, simply for the purpose of making others look bad, then I am done with you.
Go find another tree to piss on.
1EqualityUSA
“The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones…” —Willie Shakespeare.
Schlukitz, Rest, knowing that Christians, who caused their brothers and sisters harm, will be judged by stricter standards.
B
No. 39 · schlukitz wrote, “No. 36 · B The copier and paster, per excellence, quotes me as having said something I did NOT say and it is disingenuous of you to make that statement.”
You are simply a liar – in Number 36, I quoted exactly what you posted in No. 25.
You’d look like less of an idiot if you actually bothered to do some reading before you posted your nonsense, and it is not my fault that much of what you say is factually wrong as a few quotes from reasonable sources will show. I can see why you don’t like seeing those quotes – they show that you don’t know what you are talking about.
And interestingly, you have not managed to produce any decisions in which marriages were legally not recognized by a state for reasons that were not covered in the Department of Justice brief that you were ranting about. My guess is that you aren’t producing it because you can’t.
And you are also lying by writing, “And stating that I will rant if Judge Walker rules in favor of Prop 8 is also disingenuous,” as I stated no such thing. What I wrote was, “What’s your problem with it? That a lawyer was doing his job? If so, I guess you’ll rant about Judge Walker if he ends up ruling in favor of Prop 8 but praise him if the ruling goes the other way, when in fact he’s probably just trying to fulfill the responsibilities of his office.”
Perhaps you need a remedial course in English – the word “guess” is not a synonym for “will”.
schlukitz
No. 41 · B
Like I said, I am tired of being pissed on by you. We are done here.
Now, go find another tree.
Brian NYC
@B: Enough already, B. You’re cut-n-paste contribution to Queerty have gone from tedious to outright painful. We exchange ideas here and try to remain respectful. It isn’t about being right, it’s about conversation.
We all know how smart you think you are and how important that is for you, but understand this: we’d never invite you to a party. I don’t know about you, but I meet people at parties and we lose our clothing. It’s much more fun that cutting-n-pasting.
B
No. 42 · schlukitz “No. 41 · B Like I said, I am tired of being pissed on by you. We are done here.” Gee, maybe you shouldn’t lie about what others have said. It is really bad form.
No. 43 · Brian NYC wrote, “@B: Enough already, B. You’re cut-n-paste contribution to Queerty …” What this idiot is referring to is backing up statements with short quotes (and citations to where they came from) for factual material so that others can easily cross check it.
People like Brian NYC who write factually-challenged rants really don’t like it when the facts don’t agree with their preconceptions.
I’m curious why either of them are reading QUEERTY articles, however, since nearly all of those are simply paraphrases of articles that appeared on other web sites (and ocassional links to videos or pictures).
Cassandra
“”Being involved with Christian communities” is a lot like aiding and abetting the enemy – unless they formally change their beliefs.”
LOl. Wrong, but funny in the ironic nonsense from a true quisling sort of way.
After all, the most vocal, persistent, obnsoxious and dogmatic supporters of “god condemns homosexuality” are not fundamentalist Christians
but atheists on the internet. They routinely aid and abet the enemy – homophobes – by falsely, and without evidence, logic or an association with reality, making false claims about the contents, message, history and nature of the Bible and Christian teaching.
Atheists online, like those here, are eagerly sacrificing the lives of GLBTQ people in order to advance their war on people of faith.
Schulkitz and BrianNYC endanger the lives of GLBTQ people by affirming the false theology used to create discrimination against us, and by alienating and viciously attacking the very people working (unlike either Schulkitz or BrianNYSC) to end anti-gay prejudice.
“But, when one considers the tremendous amount of harm Christianity has brought”
As opposed to the harm that atheism has brought.
Homophobes only hate 10% of humanity, since GLBTQ people are about 10%, but atheists hate at least 90% of humanity.
schlukitz
No. 44 · Cassandra
After all, the most vocal, persistent, obnsoxious and dogmatic supporters of “god condemns homosexuality” are not fundamentalist Christians but atheists on the Internet.
Yep. And i’ll even bet bet you believe that atheists wrote Leviticus 18 & 20, and Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6; 1 Timothy 1 in the New Testament as well.
They routinely aid and abet the enemy – homophobes – by falsely, and without evidence, logic or an association with reality, making false claims about the contents, message, history and nature of the Bible and Christian teaching.
Nope. No evidence, whatsoever. The words homosexual, queers, perverts, pedophiles, incest, bestiality and destroyers of “traditional” marriage never came up in the Christian Church/Mormon unholy alliance to overturn Prop.8.
Nor have people like Falwell, Dobson, Robertson and the most evil and reprehensible fundamentalist bastard of all, Fred Phelps ever utter even one of those words. We are “delusional” to use your own earlier quote.
Atheists online, like those here, are eagerly sacrificing the lives of GLBTQ people in order to advance their war on people of faith.
Yep. Every Friday night, Brian and I fly up to Boston to hold a “fag-burning” in the god, old-fashioned, at the stake in the church yard, “traditional” manner”. You know, just like the Catholic Church used to do not so long ago. And,like the kind-hearted Christians, we also offer the on-fire victim an opportunity to repent, before we allow him to continue burning…for his own good and salvation, of course. We all know that the only good faggot, is a dead faggot. *sarcasm font on*
Now you sound just like the Mormon Church. Their “religious freedom” is being “attacked”. Oddly, I haven’t heard them utter a word against the atheists…only the gehys.
Schulkitz and BrianNYC endanger the lives of GLBTQ people by affirming the false theology used to create discrimination against us, and by alienating and viciously attacking the very people working (unlike either Schulkitz or BrianNYSC) to end anti-gay prejudice.
Where is the proof of the false theology being used by atheists to create discrimination against us? And just who might those people “working to end anti-gay prejudice” be? The Christian Church? The Mormons? The Fundamentalists? Fred Phelps? Pat Robertson? Tell me quick, for I need know who is going to save my soul from eternal damnation, purgatory and hell fire?
atheists hate at least 90% of humanity.
You have some documentation on that, of course?
Oh, you don’t? Oh well, never mind. Religious kooks never have documentation to support their manufactured figures and assertions.
“It say so in da bible” usually manages covers a multitude of sins of omission.
B
In No. 41 · Cassandra wrote, “Homophobes only hate 10% of humanity, since GLBTQ people are about 10%, but atheists hate at least 90% of humanity.” … I actually know some real atheists and they don’t hate religious people. Rather, they think religious folks have some crazy ideas, like the ones who think the world was created in precisely 7 days in spite of evidence that it took about 9 billion years before the earth was formed – you needed some supernovas (which occur at the end of the life of particular stars) to create heavy elements (e.g., iron).
Just because you think someone is daft doesn’t mean you hate that person. Atheists just think of religious people as being like the flat earth types – a bit loony if they really believe it but no real problem unless they try to force their beliefs on others (e.g., as the Catholic Church did when it was into burning heretics at the stake).
Cassandra
“You have some documentation on that, of course?”
Your posts, and those by BrianNYC are clear examples.
“Yep. And i’ll even bet bet you believe that atheists wrote Leviticus 18 & 20, and Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6; 1 Timothy 1 in the New Testament as well.”
Thanks for providing a confirm example. None of these passages actually condemn homosexuals, but, in your post we have a clear case of an atheist repeating a fraudulent translation/interpretation, endangering GLBTQ lives, in order to advance his war on people of faith.
Your snark only indicates the complete lack of ethics that atheists are so often, and so accurately, accused of. It is no surprise that those who vilify people of faith consistently demonstrate a complete lack of ethics and integrity – the traits that spirituality helps nurture, and ironic that the thing they reject – spirituality – is what they so clearly need most in their lives.
It is not just that your posts are fundamentally and consistently dishonest, or that you employ precisely the same rhetorical weapons that homophobes use, but the complete, almost sociopathic disregard for the humanity of anyone other than yourself that goes with it.
Atheists who insist, as you and BrianNYC do, that conservative theology is accurate deliberately, purposefully endanger the lives of GLBTQ people, solely so they can wage their war against people of faith.
Of course, their opinions are rarely, if ever, based on any research whatsoever. Like their peers and soul-mates homophobes, atheists simply cherry-pick through all available material to find, fixate and spread, whatever ugliness suits their character and goal. Like their peers and soul-mates, atheists fixate the failings of some to forge a deceitful and malicious, hate inspired slander to apply to every person of faith.
The fact that you define all Christians by just a few denominations indicates how severely crippled your education on the subject of religion truly is, Schulkitz. You and BryanNYC are like 1st graders making assertions about quantum mechanics based on the first week of math class, having missed the first three days and spent the other two making faces at each other.
Even within the denominations you use to smear all people of faith (as homophobes use drag queens and leather daddies to smear all GLBTQ people), there is tremendous diversity of opinion. But because you are only articulating prejudice, not reason, you argue from an extreme over-simplification so distorted, so separated from reality, documented history, and the lives of people of faith, as to qualify as a full-blown delusional state.
“Religious kooks never have documentation” The irony of this, from someone who complains incessantly when people provide evidence, is remarkable even for this site. You are projecting, Schulkitz.
Personally, I’m convinced that you, BrianNYC, and other fundamentalist atheists on the internet are religion’s equivalent of ex-gays – deep in denial, jealous to the point of irrational rage and all-consuming hate because other people are benefitting from something you want, desperately, but will not let yourself have.
Atheists and ex-gays are two of a sad, tragic kind. No wonder they are so similar in everything they do and say.
Cassandra
One last thought, Schulkitz. You wrote:
“Like I said, I am tired of being pissed on by you. We are done here.”
Clearly, there is a huge accuracy problem in your posts – you say you are done, but continue to post your prejudice and bile about people of faith.
Is posting here your version of a being a golden showers bottom? A bit of mouthing off, just to stir up negative attention that you’ve fetishized in some way?
Or do you just get off on reviling most of humanity?
Cassandra
“Just because you think someone is daft doesn’t mean you hate that person.”
And if that were all atheism was about, if that were all that radical fundamentalist atheists on the ‘net did, you’d be right.
But the constant din of malicious and degrading lies that folks like Schulkitz and BrianNYC unleash, at every opportunity no matter how irrelevant, indicate a deep-seated, all-consuming, negative emotion.
Hate, in other words.
Atheism parallels homophobia in every way except target. Both deny, without reason, logic, empathy or sense, the experiences of other people for no reason other than the person issuing the denial has not had the same experience. Both define their targets as mentally ill, threats to society, and blame every imaginable wrong, on their targets. Both ignore the myriad positive contributions of the people they target, they re-attribute those contributions to others, and in doing so, dehumanize extraordinary numbers of human beings. Both play the victim every chance they get, while vilifying the very people who have created and guaranteed the protections and rights they enjoy.
Of course, these traits are not just shared between homophobes and atheists, these are defining traits in all prejudices. It is simply time to recognize that atheism is in essence and expression, nothing more than another irrational prejudice.
schlukitz
No. 47 · Cassandra
Your posts number 46, 47 and 48 have something to do with something, do they?
“Golden showers, fetishes, bottoms”???
This is not just a derailment of the conversation, your posts are a major train wreck, girlfriend!
schlukitz
But the constant din of malicious and degrading lies that folks like Schulkitz and BrianNYC unleash, at every opportunity no matter how irrelevant, indicate a deep-seated, all-consuming, negative emotion.
Talk about being in denial? Burning people alive at the stake and the murder of tens of thousands during the Christian Crusades simply for not being believers, is irrelevant? No hatred here, apparently.
Both play the victim every chance they get, while vilifying the very people who have created and guaranteed the protections and rights they enjoy.
Just like with the passage of Prop 8, eh? What ingrates we atheists are. We should be flogged.
Oh, wait…you Christians used to do that regularly to atheists and heretics, didn’t you? Such a pity that secular law put an end to that. It’s the downfall of mankind, I tell you.
It is simply time to recognize that atheism is in essence and expression, nothing more than another irrational prejudice.
And the taking away of rights from gays by the Catholic Church and the Mormons is not prejudice?
You need to take your head out of your ass and take a good hard look at what is really going on around you.
You’re in Lalaland.
schlukitz
all-consuming hate
How rich. Being lectured by the originators and dispensers of hatred, wh themselves are in denial when they say…with a straight face, no less “We don’t hate the sinners. We just hate the sin.”
No doubt, this was exactly what they said to the poor souls being roasted at the stake.
And after having done so, complain bitterly when people call them on their actions, that they are being attacked unfairly, cry that their “rights” are being threatened and taken away and generally play the part of the victim, while the person they just burned gets lost and forgotten in the din they create.
Which, of course, then justifies them picking up from where they left off and continuing the attack against all who do not agree with them.
It’s a little like the parent, who after spending thirty minutes beating their child, tell him “Stop sniveling or you’ll get more of the same.”
And these are the people with whom gays are supposed to try to establish meaningful dialogue with???
Both play the victim every chance they get, while vilifying the very people who have created and guaranteed the protections and rights they enjoy.
Sorry. I have to call you on that one. It sounds like you are making a case for the Christian Church and we atheists are being ungrateful bastards.
1) Who are the people who have created and guaranteed the protections and rights that we enjoy?
2) What are these protections and rights?
3) When were they enacted?
4) And where may I find proof of this claim?
Brian NYC
@Cassandra: You are trying to mislead everyone. The traditional belief of Christians is that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant. That is not disputable. Christians continue to teach this lie to children. They are doing there best to infect the people of Africa.
Now, if you want to defend Christians and suggest they’re not “all the same,” please provide a list of Christian denominations that have rejected the belief that homosexuals are wrong. Let’s see the list.
Which Christians have formally changed their traditional doctrine? Stop blaming non-believers. Show us how Christians are abandoning the teaching that we’re defective. Even MCC hasn’t given up that belief.
LGBT people should ignore any group that demeans us – Christians have been doing that for 2,000 years. I think that’s long enough.
Brian NYC
I’m not an atheist. I’m not religious, either. I’m honest.
I don’t “know” and neither do you. That’s okay with me. I won’t play make believe and pretend to know, that would detract from experiencing life. If I thought someone did know, I’d be pissed. But, the truth is nobody knows.
My life is mine. I haven’t surrendered to ancient mythology or non-belief, I just experience everything openly and honestly. Pretending you have the answers, is not the same as actually having them. Maybe someday those “answers” will become known, but in the meantime, I’m having a wonderful life.
romeo
I’m hesitant to put on my mackintosh and step into this shitstorm, but I think Cassandra is trying to mislead us because she’s mislead herself. I have no problem with so-called “people of faith,” though I think the term as it’s used in this country is disengenuous. Fanatical Christians who use the term aren’t talking about “faith,” they’re talking about absolute belief. Faith is an individual trust that you cannot impose as an absolute on others. That’s a contradiction in terms. I’m an agnostic myself, having had a serious run-in with Immanuel Kant at an early age (I come from that kind of family LOL), so I regard idealogical absolutes of any kind merely a human delusion. However, things that can be observed in the world, and are repeatedly consistent, those are the sort of things one can trust with more certainty. I think, given the nature of the world I experience, that the existence of any kind of Prime Mover, though unlikely, is not out of the realm of possibility. Given the fragile and incomplete vessel we are given to interpret such ultimate realities, that is the human mind evolved with its body to interpret survival strategies in a local environment, earth, so we do not have the means, however much hubris we DO have, to enterpret or declare absolute ANY ultimate realities. Our senses do not experience all that there is, only those things relative to our survival as a species. Other species experience the world and have sensory abilities relative to their survival. I’m getting verbose, but my point is that no matter how great a genius we are, we can know nothing with certainty about ultimate reality. We are fooling ourselves in a profound way to think otherwise.
That said, I can sympathize with atheists. However much people of faith twist and turn, they still cannot demonstrate absolute facts as to the existence of their version of God. Therefore the atheists would seem to have the stronger argument because they are standing on, apparently, stronger ground.
I am agnostic in that I have chosen to have faith that somehow, someday, I will see my beloved grandmother again. I have hope that it isn’t just oblivion on the other side, though, again, that seems likely to me. None of any of this is something that can be imposed on others or turned into law.
Cassandra, I think you probably have good intentions, but I fear you’re not on very strong ground in this forum. Did you know that “Cassandra” was the Trojan soothsayer and witch that kept running through the streets foretelling (accurately) that the city would fall to the gay-friendly (!) Greeks? LOL
But enough of my hot air. If you liked my philosophy 101, I also give great fashion advice.
B
No. 50 · Cassandra wrote, ‘”Just because you think someone is daft doesn’t mean you hate that person.” And if that were all atheism was about, if that were all that radical fundamentalist atheists on the ‘net did, you’d be right.’ … except of course I am right – the “radical fundamentalist atheists on the ‘net” as you call them are no more representative of real atheists than Pat Robertson is representative of most Christians. It’s more that those with an ax to grind are way more vocal than everyone else.
BTW, I’ve even met atheists who study religion – academically. They look at things like how religious beliefs evolve over time
and look for similarities in what transformation occur. For example, Christians have a “trinity” which was probably introduced to resolve a conflict between different sects, while Hindus have gods with multiple arms and other features (they merged the images various groups had of some god to keep all of them happy, or at least not too angry). Just because someone is studying it, however, doesn’t mean they believe any of it.
Brian NYC
“B” and then s i l e n c e .
A now confused John from England
What is going on here??? This is the internet but u may as well be in deep dark middle america! Cassandra, have you ever being to Europe and spoke to people with brains about your religous opinions?
Cassandra
“You are trying to mislead everyone. The traditional belief of Christians is that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant.”
No.
It is the current traditional belief of some portions – the most vocal – that homosexuality is a sin. Just as it was, and in some places, still the traditional belief of some people that dark skinned people are inferior. And as with racism, which raises so many hackles here, where the fact that some light skinned people denigrate people of color doesn’t mean that all light-skinned people are racist, the fact that some people of faith are homophobic doesn’t mean all are.
You and your peers are trying to mislead people, inflate the degree of homophobia in religion, in order to further your war on spirituality.
“That is not disputable.”
Of course it is disputable. You are not a god – which is the only way anything you say could possibly be beyond dissent, dispute or contention.
“Christians continue to teach this lie to children. They are doing there best to infect the people of Africa.”
Some Christians are, indeed, and worst still, most atheists on the net are. You and Schulkitz broadcastthis false theology at every opportunity. Each time you do, you endanger GLBTQ people.
“Stop blaming non-believers.”
Stop being an active persecutor of GLBTQ people.
“Show us how Christians are abandoning the teaching that we’re defective. Even MCC hasn’t given up that belief.”
And while you are at it, stop lying. Everytime you lie, you reinforce the impression that atheists are incapable of morality.
“LGBT people should ignore any group that demeans us”
So we should ignore you and Schulkitz then.
You whine and whine and whine when some homophobe takes a questionable example from the gay community – like the leather fairs, and uses it to judge all GLBTQ people, and constructs lies and exagerations to force-fit that lie on to every GLBTQ person –
and then turn around and do it to people of faith. You are identical to any homophobe in every way, except they target gays and lesbians, and you target most of humanity.
Brian NYC
@Cassandra: You are a nut-case.
The more you type, the more I laugh. Have you met “B” yet.
Cassandra
The gay blogs are already abuzz because some homophobe talking heads have taken a recent study (flawed) that claims that gay male couples are more likely to have open relationships, and applied that to all GLBTQ people as an excuse to ban same-sex marriage.
Here on Queerty, there’s a blurb about a woman painting an inaccurate, inflammatory image of anal sex, and claiming that it defines all GLBTQ people, and folk here are outraged.
And then we have BrianNYC and Schulkitz doing exactly the same thing to people of faith. And of course, just as homophobes have temper tantrums and issue enraged denials when their hate speech is criticized, so too with BrianNYC and Schulkitz.
If ‘damned by association’ is wrong when homophobes do it to GLBTQ people, then it is wrong when BrianNYC and Schulkitz, or any other fundamentalist atheist, does it to people of faith.
If the distortions, exagerations and lies that BrianNYC and Schulkitz tell are acceptable when Christians are the target, then there is no ethical ground to complain when any homophobe does the same to GLBTQ people.
And there’s no basis for complaining about the double-standard that homophobes employ, if you employ a double standard when it comes to people of faith.
Romeo – when you are unable to follow what I’ve written, it doesn’t mean I’m misleading anyone, it just means what I wrote went over your head.
Cassandra
Brian
With every empty dismissal, you fail. If you were not putting people’s lives in jeopardy, I’d pity you. In the meantime, there is nothing funny about the way you deceitfully reinforce anti-gay theology in order to have a faux reason to hate all Christians.
schlukitz
No. 56 · romeo
I liked your post. I really did. And I can really relate to what you said about wanting to see your beloved grandmother again.
And with that comment, I believe that you have hit a commonality that we all share, whether we be a believer, agnostic or an atheist. There is probably not one among us, who does not want to see some beloved person who has passed from this reality that we call life. And, of course, you are right. No one truly knows what awaits us when we too cease to be as physical beings.
While I call myself an atheist, I will admit that, like you, I am willing to leave some room for the possibility of a Prime Mover (I like that term, btw, although based on what we know about physics and the known universe and the total lack of any visible proof of one existing, it does seem rather unlikely that one exists.
But, as you said, we do not know everything and only a fool would be will to state their beliefs as an absolute certainty and Universal truth. It is possible that, as humans, we need to do a lot more evolving and learn a great deal more before we could even deal with such a being without blowing all of our circuits. lol
If, indeed, there is a creator, I personally have no need to blow a shofar to exalt his being, since he/she would be very capable of doing that on his/her own being an omnipotent being. Not, do I have a need to deny his/her existence, because it really doesn’t have anything to do with my survival skill. If there is anything after death, and I still have the consciousness to realize it, perhaps that will be the proper time to acknowledge a higher being.
Creator or not, I am, indeed, thankful for this life that is still a miraculous gift, regardless from whence it came and like Brian, I too am having a wonderful life. ;P
Shouldn’t we all be having a wonderful life, Cassandra, despite how we choose to live it? Surely, God would have wanted that, if there is one.
We were not born just to suffer.
Food for thought.
Terry
Wow! What a ton of nasty, queeny, hateful comments. We’re all entitled to our opinions, & to have them heard respectfully; but we also need to ask whether our opinions are actually informed, or whether they represent ‘a few of my favorite things’–that is, personal agendas: either obvious or hidden. Does anybody know anything of history in these conversations?–I’m talking about how formal education sprang from the church? Anybody remember how much charitable stuff the churches still accomplish worldwide, especially when the civil state declares it can no longer afford to care for its poor? Sheesh! Get a grip, folks; & deal with your goddamn personal baggage regarding religion. Yeah, it’s an imperfect enterprise; & at its worst–it’s molested children & done some horrible things. At its best, it has inspired the very best in humankind & is involved with some of our best achievements. Look at the overall over many centuries, & consider the dimension of personal,spiritual faith. On this side of heaven, we’re all sinners–so it’s gonna remain imperfect. Still, it accomplishes enormous good; & that’s why the churches have a say on important matters.
Brian NYC
@Cassandra: I didn’t say I hated all gay Christians or all Christians. I asked you to provide a list of Christians that had changed their beliefs by rejecting the Christian idea/belief/teaching that homosexuals are wrong.
You didn’t provide any.
Brian NYC
Romeo: I appreciate your thoughtful comment. I think as human beings we really want to know and that’s why we have religion. Religion pretends to have the answers. We are much better off enjoying and appreciating what we know – our friends, our work, our love for humankind. THOSE things are real.
When I was 25 i had an old friend in his 60s. He had just lost his wife and he was incredibly sad. He shared with me that he felt empty because he had given his life to Christianity. That religion was the major force in his life. He had missed out on life because he believed the “story” of Christianity. That evening he made the decision to not pretend anymore. He began to live his life, they way he wanted to.
The honest truth is that none of us know. Some of us are okay with that, many others need a story to cope. The problem is, that story defines them. That story owns them. That story controls them. Religion does not create freedom or independence. That should make every religious person think (at least) twice.
Whether or not you’ll see your Grandmother again doesn’t change because we believe stories. It may change because of how honestly we live our lives. That should be encouraging for you – and your Grandmother.
Brian NYC
@Terry: Listen dipshit, I don’t care how much “good” you believe religion has done – it has created ALL of the pain and suffering of the LGBT Community.
Grow up. Religion is not something anyone should be proud of. It is simply about power and control. Religion made homosexuality wrong. You can be a fan of that institution if you want, it’s your choice. But, if you put LGBT people first, you would require that religion stop damaging us and stop teaching that we’re wrong. If you can’t do that for your brothers and sisters, then, go to hell.
Terry
@Brian NYC
Don’t know what made you so hateful, bro; but it sounds like your hurtin’ all over the place. My experience isn’t yours, so fucking what! Stop dissing me & others because you disagree with
our opinions. Grow up. Be able to articulate your differences without dissing others–or shut the fuck up!
Brian NYC
@Terry: You choose religion, I choose LGBT Equality. That’s clear. Now, go pray.
Mark NOLA
@Terry: Bro, I mean come on Bro – you are a dipshit. Stop preaching your Jesus crap. Religion = ignorance.
Scott NY'er
@Terry: You need an education. Saying religion has been a good force in our history is just plain ignorant. Study history. You’ll be surprised. Religion was invented for weak, uneducated people. Escape, if you can.
Terry
@Brian NYC
There are many of us who are working within religion for the cause of GLBT equality, while making the sacrifices of an uphill battle. I won’t expect you to understand. You are incredibly judgmental, with knowing next to nothing of me. You sound very much like a ‘black or white’ sort of guy: everything is ‘clear’ to you, from your own very limited perspective. I will go pray, as is my custom; & I will recommend that you do the same, for whatever blessing/healing that you need. This is the end of my communication with you: peace out.
Terry
Any reason that this was lifted early from the webpage, despite ample & ongoing communication?
schlukitz
No. 73 · Terry
There is an old expression You go to your church and I’ll go to mine.
Either you have never heard this old saw, or the meaning of it simply escapes you.
For you to come to this site as a guest, filled with LGBT people from all walks of life and who have been grievously hurt and harmed by Church bigotry, discrimination and hatred and proselytise religion (and that is precisely what you are doing), is very much akin to my attending a mass at the Westboro Baptist Church and interrupting the sermon by standing up and announcing to everyone in attendance that gay anal sex is a good thing and that all the members of the congregation should try having a nice, stiff dick shoved up their pookies.
Not that this is a bad thing, mind you, but the point of the story is, that sort of behavior, in such a hostile environment, would fly like a lead balloon and more than likely, would result in my physical removal from the premises by two strong armed members of that church. It’s simply being in wrong time and the wrong place.
You see, Terry, we don’t have any religions message to sell here and no one who regularly posts on these threads is interested in harvesting saving anyone or souls for the great hereafter We are in the here and now, sharing our thoughts, our feelings, our and experiences and our hurts as LGBT people and trying to figure out how we can win our equality in a world that has been more than hostile to us as a minority group…and continues to be, despite our pleas for understanding, acceptance and equality which, unfortunately, is falling on deaf ears and seems not to be forthcoming.
So, here’s the thing. No one is guarding the portals on this site and anyone and everyone is free to enter and participate in the conversations going on. And just like you would not like us coming into your church and creating a disturbance in the middle of the mass, we too very much dislike having people barge into our little “church” and creating a disturbance, as you have just done.
Are you listening, Cassandra?
You lecture us about showing respect out of one side of your mouth, while out of the other side, referring to us as nasty and queeny, telling us to Shut the fuck up and passing judgment on us. This is your Christian idea of being respectful? Just who invited you to stick your nose into a conversation that does not concern you…or your Christian brethren? Clean your own act up before you go telling others what they should do or how to live.
If you don’t like the tone of the conversations or what is being said on this site, then we would invite you take your bible and head on over to a site that would be more to your liking and populated with folks that would more than happy to listen to your scourging of the LGBT community…and probably even applaud you for doing so.
That is what you are seeking, is it not? Applause?
schlukitz
No. 62 · Cassandra
It is no secret that after homosexuals, atheists are the most despised minority group by Christians in America. There is no doubt in my mind that when the LGBT community has finally won it’s civil rights and Christians are no longer allowed to treat them in the same manner as they did with black slaves, that their attention will be focused on the atheists of America as a means to continue their existence…and the financial support for the ongoing hatred campaign.
It is pathetic that you, Casandra, see fit to defend organized religion, which has done so much harm to the LGBT community since it’s inception, not to mention the horrors it inflicted on countless thousands of innocent people throughout history.
Even more inappropriate and pathetic, is your driving need, as a Christian, to blame what the Catholic Church has done to gays on the atheists, which I find absolutely repulsive and is very much akin to blaming the Jews for what the Nazis did to them during WWI.
But, the piece de resistance is when you say to us, how did you put it…”while vilifying the very people who have created and guaranteed the protections and rights they enjoy.”
How ungrateful of we atheists, after all you Christians have done for us. The very least we could have done, was to say “Thank you, Master” after each whiplash that was delivered to our bared backs and say a proper “Thank you” just before we were consumed by the flames and dispatched to the great beyond.
Now, that’s chutzpah!
Hubris of the nth magnitude.
schlukitz
No. 60 · Cassandra
So we should ignore you (BrianNYC) and Schulkitz then.
Now, that is the smartest thing to come out of your mouth yet!
Would that we should be so lucky, however. 🙁
Maybe if we pluck our prayer beads?
Brian NYC
@schlukitz: Well said.
Until Terry, a practicing Gay Christian, acknowledges the simple fact that “religion made homosexuality wrong” he cannot make any real, sustainable progress within Christianity. Instead, he simply believes that “acceptance” or “tolerance” are progress.
The pain inflicted on the LGBT Community will not end until Christians stop teaching that homosexuals are wrong. This teaching also contribute to hundreds of young people taking their own lives because they believe they are defective.
No amount of “holding hands with the enemy” will change anything. The enemy has to stop the killing first. That can only be done by renouncing the hate-filled belief that we are lesser human beings. If and when religion does that, perhaps they could be looked upon as a valuable part of society. Forgiveness for their false teaching and their hurtful behavior can only be considered AFTER they stop.
There sin’t a single Christian denomination (including phony MCC) that has officially rejected the belief that homosexuals are wrong. Only then will the LGBT Community be able to embrace them or consider it progress.
schlukitz
No. 78 · Brian NYC
We are on exactly the same page. And until these Christian denominations officially reject the belief that homosexuals are wrong, everything they do and say is just smoke and mirrors.
B
No. 58 · Brian NYC wrote ‘”B” and then s i l e n c e .’
Seem Brian NYC is being obsessive. Curiously, post 57 (from me) was made on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:11 pm, and Brian’s weird comment in #58 followed on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm. So, if he didn’t see #57, it took him 25 minutes after visiting this page before he posted a 15-letter response (plus a period, two double quotes, and some spaces). If he did see it, he seems to be assuming a very high rate for new comments.
Or maybe he just wants everyone to know he is still alive.
schlukitz
No. 78 · Brian NYC
No. 80 · B wrote Seems Brian NYC is being obsessive.
An anal-retentive calling someone else obsessive? That’s rich. LOL
On second thought, however, that would be one of the symptoms of OCPD, wouldn’t it?
Brian NYC
@B: Hey B – look what i can do:
Seem Brian NYC is being obsessive. Curiously, post 57 (from me) was made on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:11 pm, and Brian’s weird comment in #58 followed on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm. So, if he didn’t see #57, it took him 25 minutes after visiting this page before he posted a 15-letter response (plus a period, two double quotes, and some spaces). If he did see it, he seems to be assuming a very high rate for new comments.
Seem Brian NYC is being obsessive. Curiously, post 57 (from me) was made on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:11 pm, and Brian’s weird comment in #58 followed on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm. So, if he didn’t see #57, it took him 25 minutes after visiting this page before he posted a 15-letter response (plus a period, two double quotes, and some spaces). If he did see it, he seems to be assuming a very high rate for new comments.
Seem Brian NYC is being obsessive. Curiously, post 57 (from me) was made on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:11 pm, and Brian’s weird comment in #58 followed on Feb 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm. So, if he didn’t see #57, it took him 25 minutes after visiting this page before he posted a 15-letter response (plus a period, two double quotes, and some spaces). If he did see it, he seems to be assuming a very high rate for new comments.
Pretty neat, huh?
B
No. 82 · Brian NYC wrote, :@B: Hey B – look what i can do:”
Seems that Brian is having “issues” when his anti-religion crusade (which treats religion as the work of the devil more than merely an archaic set of beliefs) is shown to be backed up with factually incorrect statements.
1EqualityUSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B04-I1EgoG4&feature=related
The Big Queerty…..mighty, sweeping music…. with B as Jarrod Barkley, Schlukitz as Nick Barkley, Terrwill as Heath….Cassandra as Audra…..Hmmmm Who might VICTORIA be? Woof.
schlukitz
LOL 1EqualityUSA
Lukas P.
@1EqualityUSA: Laughing on the floor, rolling my ass off—or whatever y’all’s expression is!
Thanks, I needed that….
schlukitz
No. 86 · Lukas P.
Your response to 1EqualityUSA was equally as funny. Thank y’all for a laugh, as well.