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Why Do Masculine Gay Guys Look Down On Feminine Guys?

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 2.56.10 PMTo all gay men who make it a habit of looking down on/making fun of feminine gay men, let me first apologize. I didn’t realize it was so hard to be masculine and gay at the same time. People stare at you, call you names, and even threaten your life. All because you blend in with the rest of the society and are able to hide and even deny your sexuality when it conveniences you. That’s how it works, right?

All sarcasm aside, what I’m definitely not going to apologize for is your skewered belief that sparkly, flamboyant gay men make other “normal” gay men look bad. I believe our culture in general is doing a fine job of that, you know, the church fanatics that want us all put to death and political/religious leaders who have outlawed our lifestyle in other countries. I don’t apologize for that. In fact, I don’t even excuse it.

femmeAt a time when we’re supposed to be standing together as a community, we couldn’t be farther apart. Gay men don’t even accept each other, yet we want the same rights as everyone else. We should be united, but instead we’re worried about how someone else who’s going through the same struggles as any gay man might make us be perceived by others.

The ironic thing about it all is that you look down on feminine gay men because they’re actually stronger than you. Anyone who can get up and walk out of their house knowing they will be rejected by most of the people they run into has to be strong and thick-skinned. There’s no alternative. So, then, it makes sense that you would have a problem with someone who’s brave enough to be the person you don’t have the guts to be.

Feminine gay men don’t need to become more masculine to make you more comfortable, just like you don’t have to become completely straight just to make suspiciously-curious homophobes more comfortable. There’s no such thing as gender norms. That’s yet another hold-back element invented by our male-dominated culture.

Screen Shot 2014-07-07 at 4.56.47 PMBut I won’t spew out a full dissertation on this post. I’ll just make it simple:

I am not less of a person because my hair is long, my eyebrows are plucked, I regularly wear makeup and dress feminine, or even for the way I choose to talk and present myself.

I am not less of a person because, unlike you, I can easily be picked out in a crowd because of my flamboyant personality and behavior. Sorry, not all of us want to spend our lives trying desperately to fit in with the rest of the world. It’s boring.

I am not less of a person because you specified on your Grindr/Adam4Adam/OkCupid/Plenty of Fish profile that you only date “real” masculine men and will block sissy, fem boys.

I am not less of a person just like you are not less of a person. We’re both gay men. We’re in this together, all pettiness aside.

I am not part of the “faggot” imaginary subgroup designated for gay men who aren’t twinks with washboard abs and Miley Cyrus haircuts.

gay2-42550251504_xlargeI am not less of a person because, put simply, you and the rest of the world do not get to define who I am either way.

I am a person first, and if society wants to use how I, as an individual, act in order to define an entire group of people, that’s their problem, isn’t it?

This essay was originally published on Bold and Sugar.

Photo credit: Flickr

By:           Darianna Jones
On:           Jul 7, 2014
Tagged:

  • 157 Comments
    • Teeth
      Teeth

      Not into living stereotypes at either extreme, or for the racial group I belong to. It’s often a phase… an annoying one… that people find some membership in becoming carbons of their group’s identifiers. I’ve been there, I’ve done it.. and I was obnoxious about it. I’m over it, and I empathize but don’t want to hang out with non-authentic people. Ok, Girlfriend? lol

      Jul 7, 2014 at 8:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lvng1tor
      Lvng1tor

      Some guys are fem some are butch some are more relaxed some are more what ever….thinking you are better than someone else says more about that persons self esteem than their targets. @Teeth: has a point just be authentic and be you…I can only be me.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 8:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jar
      jar

      In response to the question- because they fear they are the same. The only way to squelch that fear is to remove the “effeminate” from sight.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 8:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • E T
      E T

      @jar: A very wise comment! We hate in others what we hate in ourselves, I absolutely believe that. Another argument for pride!

      Jul 7, 2014 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bee Gaga
      Bee Gaga

      Preach sis! You hit the nail on the head, effeminate gay men are mirrors to the self-loathing “straight acting” gay men. They see in effeminate men, what they often times are not, unapologetically themselves, brave and authentic. So, they bash it, it’s that classic concept called projection. Not to mention they see effeminate gay men as holding them back from the mainstream acceptance. In recent years gay pride has been all about “look we’re just like you” and unfortunately the 6’2 dress wearing “yasssss” saying man on the side isn’t portraying that message of assimilation. Funny thing is, it was those very 6’2 dress wearing “yassss” saying gay men that got the movement to start and progress. The “straight acting” guys were going to work, fitting into society seamlessly, not being noticed and not wanting to be. So, in the words of Beyonce BOW DOWN, because these effeminate men are the reason why you can walk hand in hand with your gym rat boyfriend on the boulevard. Sidebar – I always found straight acting to be funny…if you’re straight acting, doesn’t that mean you’re acting straight? And acting straight would mean you’re acting like you sleep with the opposite sex, since that’s the only thing straight means. So basically, in a roundabout way, “straight-acting” is the nice/white way of saying I want a man on the DL.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 9:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paco
      Paco

      Thank you for this article! Every gay man has the right to be himself without pressure from other gay men to force them to put on an act for acceptance the same way the homophobes do. When you get down to the actual fact of the matter, the straight homophobes see no difference between the nelly flamboyant queen and the hyper-masculinized caricatures that call themselves straight acting. We are all the same to them the moment they find out we sleep with other men.

      Be yourself and allow others to do the same.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 9:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ihadtosayit
      Ihadtosayit

      You can see this on Hulu or some other streaming source….

      Jul 7, 2014 at 10:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jwrappaport
      jwrappaport

      Great piece. I think masc4masc should read mask4mask.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 10:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tackle
      Tackle

      Interesting article, and good discussion piece. But I think the writer is a bit confused. Femininity and flamboyance are two different things. These pictures show guys who are flamboyant. A guy can appear to be and look masculine, yet have feminine mannerisms. I’m more of the masculine type, but prefer guys who are slightly more to the feminine side. Bit not flamboyant. Which sometimes I feel it’s, ” look at me, I need attention! ” However I do not look down, laugh at or think I’m better than fem or flamboyant guys. And I
      don’t like the tone or insinuation that it’s a masculine vs fem thing. Or that all or even the majority of what’s considered masculine do indeed look down on fem guys. I think it’s more or a youth/immaturity mentality when it does happen. It’s also something that guys for the most part ( the ones who do this) as they mature, grow out of this behavior.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • middleagespread
      middleagespread

      Now substitute the word fat for effeminate. Unfortunately, everyone gets judged about something. Too short, too fat, too fem, too tall, too many tats, not enough tats, too pale, too dark, too smooth, too hairy.. list goes on and on.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 11:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • surreal33
      surreal33

      Why? You ask? Fem boys (with a few exceptions) are the MOST self-loathing, self-destructive, mean, petty, shell of men to walk the earth. Fem boys entire life is based on surface details and being fabulous. The ultimate hypocrisy is to paint fem boys as victims. Go to any gay establishment and you will find a fem queen(s)
      are deciding who is thin enough, young enough,etc to get in. Open any gay magazine and some fem boy dictating what is sexy, what is cool, what is desirable. Fem boys resentment of masculine men far out ways any bias masculine men have towards fem boys. Ask yourself when was the last a masculine man publicly out another man?
      Yet everytime you turn around some fem queen is trying to out someone. Fem boys actions speak volumes as to why they viewed with such contempt.

      Jul 7, 2014 at 11:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dxley
      Dxley

      If a masculine gay man doesn’t want anything to do a feminine one, it’s his choice. He also has sexual preferences, and you don’t have to change your feminine ways for him, but just don’t go near him either and everyone is happy!

      Jul 8, 2014 at 1:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlexM
      AlexM

      The author of this piece seems to be bitter about being rejected by some masculine dude on a dating app. Truth is, people have preferences and if that happens to be masculine men, then deal with it. Seems to me like the insecure ones are the ones who write articles like this and post youtube videos talking about the same subject. Get over it already.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Zodinsbrother
      Zodinsbrother

      I don’t have any problem with fem men. And I know gay and straight ones.

      The problem is when that stereotype blocks out and obscures the full diversity of gay men.

      Lots of young gay men go through tremendous struggles because the images of gay men in the mainstream media are universally fem. And when they don’t recognise themselves in that they think “how can that be me”.

      So they end up living in the closet until they are 40 and ruining their own and others lives.

      So, I’m happy to celebrate the fem men and their visibility. Just give the rest a seat at the table too.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ridpathos
      Ridpathos

      I can’t answer for everyone, but I know in my case, the main reason I don’t like many fem gay guys is because they seem to find a need to be insufferably obnoxious, loud, and sassy. If I met a woman who was like that, I wouldn’t want to be friends with them either.

      I always attempt to give all people a chance though. Another part of it is that we just don’t generally have the same interests. I like to do things like rock-climb, kayak, camping, I love attempting to grow intellectually. There are a few fem guys who are intellectual, and MIGHT geek out to the same things I do, but I find them very rare (they generally geek out over what I find to be shallow celebrity drama, reality TV, and whatever ‘some bitch’ they know did recently), and I don’t think I’ve ever met a really active fem guy.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 3:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ontheupandup
      ontheupandup

      @Ihadtosayit: “The Butch Factor” documentary was great! It really made me think and I strongly recommend it to every gay man. It was very honest!

      I echo the sentiments of others on there that you can really only be yourself. To whatever degree that’s “masculine,” “feminine,” (both cultural constructs that mean different things to everyone, really) or vacillating on a spectrum (<–which I think goes for most people of any identity or sexual orientation), it's kind of irrelevant; we're all just human.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 3:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • teejay123
      teejay123

      Interesting article, and it’s definitely something that needs addressing, but I do think it’s oversimplified here.
      For one thing, people are never really one or the other, there are a lot of shades of ‘masc’ or ‘fem’. Most people are mostly one but rarely 100%. And there’s definitely a case to be made for pointing out that guys who are mostly masc expose their self-hatred of their own fem sides whenever they belittle someone who is overtly fem.
      But equally, there are guys who take advantage of stereotypes and flamboyance in lieu of an actual personality. It’s one thing to have the traits and tropes of traditionally feminine behaviour, but there are guys who take it to the next level and completely lose themselves in the worst excesses of that behaviour. Recent cases in point might be Laganja in Drag Race or Johnny Weir (rightly called out by Harvey Fierstein, who’s hardly the most masculine of gays).
      And then there are guys who lose themselves in straight, gr, manly stereotypes.

      I guess, bottom line, some guys are dicks, masc or fem.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dxley
      Dxley

      Mit Romney is on Queerty. LOL!!!

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      I don’t care really if a guy is masculine or feminine as long as he is a great guy. I have dated both. My last ex was very feminine and even wore makeup and I thought he was beautiful. My fiance is very masculine and rugged and butch I think he is beautiful. I consider myself “neutral”. People are surprised that I am gay when they find out, but I am not exactly uber butch. I am just me.

      @jwrappaport: Amen there. His Queerty name is horrendous. Someone whined and sobbed elsewhere in the comment section: “If a masculine gay man doesn’t want anything to do a feminine one, it’s his choice. He also has sexual preferences, and you don’t have to change your feminine ways for him, but just don’t go near him either and everyone is happy!”

      This isn’t about sexual preferences, this is about how we treat each other in daily life. Preferences have nothing to do with it EXCEPT for when a guy is RUDE about his preferences.

      @AlexM: Wrong, he is bitter about how feminine gay men are often treated by other gay men. We are all allowed to have our preferences. But why be rude and hurtful about expressing them?

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @Disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle choice: Its not your job to “disagree” with what you call our “lifestyle” choice. The fact that you devote so much of your energy to something that is none of your business makes YOU the pervert.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @DarkZephyr: Yaaay!!! Well said!

      Can we not have these openly homophobic posters banned?

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dxley
      Dxley

      Darianna Jones, why can’t you people ban this redneck idiot in here? The “homosexualist” scumbag!

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dxley
      Dxley

      Darianna Jones, why can’t you people ban this
      redneck idiot in here? The “homosexualist”
      sc_mbag!

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billy Budd
      Billy Budd

      I am butch and I feel attracted to butch guys. That doesn’t mean I discriminate Fems. I actually dated a fem once and HE was the top in the relationship. He had a huge dick and was exclusively a top.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 6:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredparislondon
      fredparislondon

      I don t have any problem with fem gay guys and masculine “butch” gay guys as long as they are true to who they are, respectful and live their life without being too judgemental. Can t stand though those “butch ones “, that spend hours trimming their beard, choosing the right colour of socks to match their jock straps and than bitch about the fem or normal dudes.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 6:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stevenw
      Stevenw

      “Anyone who can get up and walk out of their house…has to be strong and thick-skinned.”

      I wish that were true. But personally I have not found that no ‘fem’ gay man is any thicker skinned than anyone else. If they were, I’d be first in the queue to ask them their secret!

      Also I wonder about the labels we use. Anyone know any woman who acts like a ‘feminine’ gay man? Because I must say, I don’t; I’m not sure feminine is the right word.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 7:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      @fredparislondon : yep so true.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 8:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BJ McFrisky
      BJ McFrisky

      Why? Simple: Because gay men are into MEN, not chicks with dicks. There are a lot of us out there who, for whatever reason, embrace only their feminine side, and it isn’t attractive.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 8:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jonjct
      jonjct

      I love feminine guys. I prefer a swishy guy to a straight-acting one. I don’t know why, it’s just what I’m attracted to. Fem guys are almost always bottoms, and that’s the other reason I love them. It’s so implausible for a fem to be a top, and before i get a thousand testimonials I KNOW it happens, I’ve seen it. Long live feminine young gay men.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 10:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • samwise343
      samwise343

      @BJ McFrisky: BJ, I’m betting that whether you’re really masculine or feminine, both inside and out, you’re not attractive at all.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 10:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • IvanPH
      IvanPH

      As a non-effeminate gay man, i am offended that this article seems to suggest that we are not being true and authentic. I resent this misconception effeminate gay men have about masculine gay men. We are NOT hiding anything. We do not have long hair, wear feminine clothes & make-up, and talk with high-pitched voices simply because we do NOT want to. Some gay guys are just not comfortable with being and acting like that. We do not want to be objects of ridicule and amusement.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 10:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • IvanPH
      IvanPH

      Let’s just ignore the NARTH degenerate freak if the Queerty admin won’t ban him. The lowlife is probably just repeating and spewing lies about homosexuals that we have all read and heard before.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 10:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • card28
      card28

      While I agree that feminine/flamboyant men should not be looked down upon or made fun of, this post entirely ignores the fact that not all people get along – simple as that. I don’t have many feminine gay friends because of the ones I’ve met, we simply don’t share the same interests. Just as we ask others to respect our lifestyle in general, you need to respect that not everyone is going to like everyone else, and that’s fine.

      Also, you say that masculine gay men look down on them for being “someone who’s brave enough to be the person you don’t have the guts to be.” Again, you’re assuming that all men naturally want to be feminine and flamboyant which is untrue. A major flaw in this article is how much it over-generalizes to the detriment of an entirely valid point: that people need to respect each other.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 10:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • scze2000
      scze2000

      I’m out everyone knows im out i live in a small city. I also have masculine tendencies. I’m not very fem. Why does everyone assume that I hate myself or fem guys because I am attracted to masculine acting men. Quite frankly if I was attracted to long hair nail polish and bitchiness I would date a women and not have had to deal with years of disapproval and outright abuse. I was a victim of a gay bashing coming out of a gay bar once so I do know the hate that is out there. Saying that my personal like of a man that is masculine doesn’t mean that I hate myself or anyone else it means that’s my preference. Just like some people are attracted to blue eyes dark hair blonde hair. Preference just means I am attracted to a certain type I have dated a drag queen I prefer masculine men though. So please don’t stereo type me as someone who hates either myself or someone else because i choose to date certain people who i find attractive.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • drivendervish
      drivendervish

      First you accuse me of not having the guts to be who I really am and then you say there are No Gender Norms! So which is it because they are mutually exclusive. It is insulting that you think I have created a false personality or feign interest in more masculine pursuits in an attempt to fit in. If I am to accept that being gay for you means wearing makeup, dresses, and generally being as flamboyant as possible. Then you have to accept that I really do like football and fishing and couldn’t care less about fashion.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • midnightsnack
      midnightsnack

      This is nothing but another rant-n-rave piece, most likely from a millennial feeling self-entitled. If one gets past the “victim” rhetoric, the writer urges unity amongst various subgroups under the Rainbow by accepting all for who they are. And yet, in the same breath, he/she chastises those who don’t care for L’Oreal as wanting “desperately to fit in with the rest of the world.” I, for one, beg to differ.

      The unfortunate bitterness with which this was penned mars the key point: respect and dignity for all. However, I must confess I remain utterly puzzled why there persists the confusion between being “feminine” and “flamboyant.” Exaggerated flaming in an attempt to mimic ill-conceived notions of femininity is simply tragic. If anything, flamboyance only feeds into stereotypes against which we are all fighting to eradicate.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      MASCULINE men do NOT look down on perceived-”feminine” guys. Only faux-macho posturing insecure homosexual cowards do that. I’ve never met a truly masculine gay man who took issue with, or in any way denigrated, guys who might be seen as or deemed to be “effeminate”.

      Because confident masculine secure men don’t tend to take issue with those who are different.

      If you’re a gay man who “can’t stand those effeminate gay stereotypes”, what your’e really saying is “i don’t like those gay people that my crap anti-gay parents don’t like.” every time.

      http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dad-says-youre-fag-hesaid/
      check it out.

      “masculine” means nothing as it means something different to everyone.. for many insecure gay men they think you can’t be “obviously, visibly, identifiably gay and still be Masculine” – they’re wrong, and they reveal their insecurity and faux-macho posturing.

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2013/09/mask-for-masc.html

      you show me an “I can’t stand effeminate gays” gay man who can put his face and name to his comments and I’ll show you a unicorn.

      Midnightsnack – false. “we are all” not fighting to “eradicate stereotypes”, and even you know you’re full of s**t. If you believed a word that you’ve typed you’d be showing yourself, right now, as the “best example of a gay man” that you pretend to be.

      Those flamboyant flaming types? The types who come out, let’s be real here, YEARS before guys like you do? They exist. They have every right to. Power to them.

      if you think “your kind of gay” is “underrepresented” here’s why: it’s because guys like *you* continually give every cowardly excuse in the book to not stand up and represent yourselves.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @drivendervish: or you can do what i do: represent yourself every day.@IvanPH: then grow some balls and stop being such an insecure wimp.

      that’s what your post says. “we don’t WANT to be like those guys!” you mean those guys that don’t care what others think? those guys who don’t live each day in fear of “What the Straights Will Think?”

      Oh Queerty – here’s a fun game – can any of you “i’m not effeminate! i’m a masculine masc gay man!” dudes put a face to your claims? can you show us who you are? Drop off your youtube URL so we can see this incredible, secure, confident Gay Man that you claim to be.

      alas, it seems to be business as usual – anonymous invisible guys claiming that they’re “not represented” – if you want people to know about “gays like you”, you need to step your game up. or shut up.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @scze2000: alas, you prove yourself to be full of shit the moment you linked “feminine” to “bitchiness” – thus, you’re a liar. you link ‘feminine’ to ‘bitchiness’ – so it’s not great leap to link your self-styled (and unproven) “masculinity” to “insecure self-loathign and misogyny”

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • midnightsnack
      midnightsnack

      @Little-Kiwi: While I am guilty of arguing with the irrational here, let me know when you have cogent arguments without any vitriolic presuppositions about how proud or how out anyone who disagrees with you may be. Unless, of course, if your point is only to troll people for your “the Perez for the culturally austere” blog. To be sure, though, we all should realize by now that blaring one’s opinion in cyberspace doesn’t make your point assume any more legitimacy.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      There is no one way to be a man, let alone a gay man, so we should behave how we like, without feeling as if our behaviour is going to be policed.

      ‘Masc’? ‘Femme’? Just be yourself guys and ditch the stereotypes!

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @midnightsnack: Until any of you guys can say your comments from a place of visibility, I stand by my statement.

      “flamboyant” means loud and attention-getting. basically, nearly every straight man at a live sports event is “flamboyant” – Bill O’Reilly is flamboyant. Glenn Beck is flamboyant. Jesse Ventura is flamboyant. Frat boys generally tend to be flamboyant. There is nothing in the word “flamboyant” that has anything to do with “effeminacy” – at all. Some guys perceived as “femme” are also decidedly NOT “flamboyant” .

      But I stand by it – whenever this topic comes up (which is often) the “i’m masc! I’m just not into fem flamer stereotypes”! brigade are also, always, the “anonymous internet commmenter making his comments from a place of invisibility” brigade.

      time and time again. today is no different.

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2009/09/in-defense-of-my-glorious-femme.html

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Black Pegasus
      Black Pegasus

      It’s not about being feminine. It’s about defining “gay” as acting like a damn clown! I’m a masculine guy who prefers other masculine guys. But I have dated slightly less masculine guys and they were never the stereotypical queens we often think of. Being Fem does not mean you have to act like clown for attention. Flamboyance for the sake of flamboyance favors no one.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @Black Pegasus: But if someone wants to be ‘flamboyant’ then that’s their choice. Why should we have to do anyone ‘favours’, which just smacks of trying to appease the heterosexual mainstream?

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cformusic
      cformusic

      im masc and i LOVE a feminine man..call me ladies!

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @Random: Perhaps “Black Pegasus” can further show us what he specifically means by “masculine’ by showing us all, via the wonders of youtube, who he actually is.

      right?

      I mean, “masculine” and “feminine” mean something different to everyone – so, all you guys who complain about “clown effeminacy” – show yourselves. Let’s see you and your specific brand of Masculine Example. After all, you’re a confident secure masculine gay man, right? no reason to hide it.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @Black Pegasus: “Being Fem does not mean you have to act like clown for attention. Flamboyance for the sake of flamboyance favors no one.” neither does being “masc”, in a self-styled sense. clownish males adopting the trashy ignorant energy of Frat Bro Culture. it’s pathetic.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 12:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rulito
      Rulito

      Because we live in a society in which masculinity is held in higher regard than femininity.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 1:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @Rulito: And that’s fucked up, isn’t it? We should be fighting against that sort of BS, rather than perpetuating it.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      What we see is this: the insecure gay men who never grew the spines to stand up to misogynistic, sexist homophobes in their community (and, all too often, THEIR OWN FAMILY) end up being the “i can’t stand fems” gays. insecure, resentful homosexuals who hate the types of gay men that their shi**y families hated.

      you show me a gay man that hates “effeminate flamboyant gays” and i’ll show you a boy who never grew the balls to defy his trashy father.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 1:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SammySeattle
      SammySeattle

      My ex is fem, and the hottest man I’ve ever known.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jar
      jar

      @Zodinsbrother: Are you serious? It’s the fault of fem gay men that others are too cowardly to come out of the closet? And you’re pushing the ridiculous claim that “if” all he sees are effeminate gay men he will feel alienated? You have heard of this little invention called the internet. Your oh-so fragile gay man can find any and every flavor of gay man there. I find it a bit sad that you are so passive that you would give some other person the power to determine the course of your life.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @jar: a few commenters in here need this, because it’s actually about *them*

      http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dad-says-youre-fag-hesaid/

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @Zodinsbrother: give the rest a seat at the table?

      how about “those other guys” do what those “fems” do, which is STAND UP TO BE COUNTED.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @Little-Kiwi: Loved each and every one of yiur posts and nearly applauded out loud. Thanks for those! I have seen pictures of Black Pegasus (I think, unless I’m confusing him with someone else who posts here) and he is a physically beautiful, athletic and handsome man who used ro link to his blog, but I’ve never seen him live or heard him speak. I’ve learned that a lot of gay men who declare themselves to be “masculine” according to heteronormative standards aren’t as “masculine” as they self perceive. It’s one of the reasons I refuse to identify as masculine myself.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @DarkZephyr: i don’t have any gay male friends who “identify as masculine” – does this mean that they would not be considered “masculine’ by society? not at all .it means they’re too fucking confident, secure and busy with life to worry about perceptions or concepts of “masculinity”.

      thanks, brother.

      i’ve said it before, i’ll say it again, no “masculine” men look down on “feminine” guys. the only men who knock, denigrate or distance themselves from perceive-”effeminate” guys are insecure wimps with daddy-issues who adopt faux macho-posturing to feel “like real men” – it’s essentially just DRAG.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      I don’t dislike effeminate men, sometimes their mannerisms are cute. I just don’t have anything in common with men who want to wear dresses and heels, etc.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jar
      jar

      @Little-Kiwi: That was a compelling read. Your comments on this have been spot on.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stenar
      Stenar

      Few of the “straight-acting” men I know are self-loathing and if they’d just get over themselves, they’d be effeminate. Some guys are just more masculine acting. Why are effeminate men hating on masculine men?

      Jul 8, 2014 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @jar: thanks, brother.

      http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dad-says-youre-fag-hesaid/

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @Stenar: strawman.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @Little-Kiwi: I read the article you linked to in some of your posts. What a brilliant piece. When I was growing up I showed a very noticed lack of interest in girls and I made the dread choice of taking Drama. Oops. That screwed me over for a few years. I got labeled *f*g” and “queer” and was physically assaulted on a regular basis as a result. I was quite literally almost killed more than once by large homophobic groups of my peers. Someone sobbed and cried earlier in this comment section that “feminine” gay men are not stronger than self declared masculine men are. But a “fem” who is true to himself and doesn’t hide is VERY brave in MY book. There is a LOT more ridicule and violence directed at them than so called “masc” men. To me being true to yourself under such conditions is heroically brave. To deny that bravery, you have to be lying to yourself, or just very dumb.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JennyFromdabloc
      JennyFromdabloc

      I myself prefer men to act like men. And so do many others.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @Stenar: Not all feminine gay men wear dresses and heels. And nobody is “hating” on masculine men. You would know that if you paid attention. The issue here is how some gay men treat the so called feminine gay men.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @JennyFromdabloc: We aren’t talking about preferences. We are talking about the way we treat each other. By the way, wtf do you mean by “men who act like men”?

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • realdeal2000
      realdeal2000

      This article is the reason that gay people don’t support each other. He states all his attributes that don’t make him a lesser person, but does a damn good job of making masculine gay men feel like lesser of a person. I’m not going to apologize for how I act as you should not have to. I’m not going to apologize for being attracted to who I am as you should not have to. Is this article written by a feminine gay man who is attracted to the same masculine gay man he is demeaning and been spurned? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I’m not a fan of the term “straight-acting” but there are feminine and masculine gay men and everthing in between. I am not lesser of a person because I play sports and enjoy eating messy wings and having a beer. ;). Can’t we all just get along. ;)

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @realdeal2000: i think you need to re-read it a few times.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bee Gaga
      Bee Gaga

      @scze2000: You lose all credibility to whine about stereotyping you when you say ignorant things like “If I was into long hair, nail polish and bitchiness I’d just date a woman.” Apparently, the writer accurately described men, I mean boys, like you in this post

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • loren_1955
      loren_1955

      I was married to a women for 27 years, now divorced, and really the last thing I want to be with is another women, be it a male or female. Myself, I am very comfortable having fully embraced my wholeness, masculine and feminine. You would find me equally comfortable changing brake pads on my truck, baking bread or putting up another batch of raspberry jam, bare chested splitting wood at my cabin or creating my latest quilt design. I do have to agree with a number of commenters, since coming out about 5 years ago, as I watch the gay community many that are feminine act like a bunch of petty whiny bitches, much worse than I had to deal with married to a women. That is not to criticize, just an observation. I don’t judge others for their choices and lives, I just choose who I am comfortable with and bitching is not my thing.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bee Gaga
      Bee Gaga

      @loren_1955: Oh what a coincidence many of the masculine ones act like self-loathing insecure wannabes, holding on to whatever straight privilege they can squeeze out while still getting their back blown out by men. Just an observation though.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • realdeal2000
      realdeal2000

      @Little-Kiwi: I think you do too.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • litper
      litper

      Because femmes hate homosexuality and worship heterosexuality. They’re basically pre-op trans women.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Teeth
      Teeth

      I think that this conversation would make more sense if we were clear if we mean “feminine gay guys” or “Bitchy queens”. Cuz…. there IS a difference.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BJ McFrisky
      BJ McFrisky

      @samwise343: “BJ, I’m betting that whether you’re really masculine or feminine, you’re not attractive at all . . . ”
      . . . says the LOTR nerd.
      You’re funny.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paco
      Paco

      @litper: Your comment and others like it are precisely what the essay was about. Thanks for stepping forward as an example of someone looking down upon fem men.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paco
      Paco

      @loren_1955: Bitching about others bitchiness only makes you appear to be bitchy. It’s ok sis, we are all entitled to an occasional bitchfest. I won’t hold it against you. It was just an observation.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 5:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jar
      jar

      @loren_1955: From your comment, it sounds like you have a lot of issues with women. It’s not your former wife’s fault that you stayed in the closet until five years ago. That is not to criticize.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 6:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • litper
      litper

      @Paco: no such thing as fem “men”. They want to be women, fine. But they’re not the part of the gay community. They’re the opposite of what we’re fighting for.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 7:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paco
      Paco

      @litper: Your reply makes little sense to me. Effeminate men most certainly exist and make up a sizeable portion of the gay community. I am not sure what you think the gay community is fighting for, but I am quite sure it is not fighting for enforcement of heteronormative gender roles. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you meant by “They’re the opposite of what we’re fighting for.”

      Jul 8, 2014 at 7:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • level75RDM
      level75RDM

      Gay guys are unable to actually specify what it means to be masculine. You ask, all we seem to say is “Not like a woman”. Which begs the question, what does a woman act like? Then, the answer always amounts to “Not like a man.”

      Don’t ask a gay guy what masculinity actually encompasses. They will refuse to give you a straight answer…

      …so to speak.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justathought12
      justathought12

      I certainly can’t speak for everyone, and I wouldn’t excuse anyone who would disparage feminine gay men, but my own thoughts on this issue are a little complex. As a more masculine gay guy, I think the process of coming out and connecting with my gay identity has been complicated by the fact that the feminine gay man seems to be the face of gay men in the U.S. by and large. It has been frustrating at times to feel as though coming out might cause me to be perceived in a manner with which I simply don’t identify. I realize that there is a significant advantage that masculine guys have to feminine ones in that they can often escape bullying/bigotry more easily, and I acknowledge that this isn’t a small advantage. That being said, being masculine for me has come with it’s own challenge in feeling as though coming out will cause me to be perceived in a very specific way (due to the prominence of feminine gay men in the media etc.) that has little to do with who I actually am. I think our community will benefit enormously when gay people and straight people realize how diverse we are within our “group” and that this will continue to allow people from many walks of life to more easily identify more and more with gay people. Again, I’m not excusing hatred toward feminine gay guys, just trying to explain what may be a source of frustration for some.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 10:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben Dover
      Ben Dover

      @justathought12: “the feminine gay man seems to be the face of gay men in the U.S. by and large.”

      Really? I don’t see that at all. That wasn’t true even 20 years ago. Now, it’s fairly diverse – could always be more representative, of course, but yeah.

      I get the impression you’re very young & not quite out yet (that seems to be mostly your point), and I don’t mean to totally discount the influence of media. But you seem to working this stuff backwards a few different ways. You look at the media portrayals and apparently, you automatically think, “Eek – What are straights thinking about this??? (And by extension, about me???)”. And you’re so focused on that, you don’t even notice that the media portrayals are, in reality, all over the place, much more varied than your fear of them. (Or as you put it, your “frustration” with them.) Your sense of reality seems to be a little off.

      Jul 8, 2014 at 11:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • riosig79
      riosig79

      I’m not reading other posts in order to focus solely on my views. Therefore, I’m totally unsure where my comment might fall on the continuum of views.

      The author states, “I am a person first, and if society wants to use how I, as an individual, act in order to define an entire group of people, that’s their problem, isn’t it?”

      The author is clearly articulating EXACTLY WHY SOCIETY REJECTS THE MERE NOTION OF THE GLBT COMMUNITY, acting in such a flamboyant and perverse manner is because you want to stir the hatred, the attention and be perceived as ‘normal’ as any narcissist would. Behavior described as flamboyant, etc. is, statistically speaking, an outlier in regards to the bell shaped curve of gay behaviors. It is exactly this behavior that prohibits acceptance and inclusion.

      As a gay man that divorced a woman after almost 30 years, it was the disgusting flamboyant freaks that I hated and they represented gay men and thus I fought my true self from emerging. Don’t you see, it’s ok to be gay just don’t act it and don’t be a priss and try to shove it in the face of others. Gay men that cannot act like men ruin the good life that real gay men should be afforded.

      The author knows that his narcissistic self demeans the entire gay community and yet turns it that he is the victim. He isn’t a victim. He’s part of a problem in the gay community where gays like him just want to draw attention to themselves as they smear the need for universal acceptance and inclusion. If I were king, people like the author would be ostracized and relegated to a low social acceptance.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 4:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @DarkZephyr: @JennyFromdabloc:

      How should a man act then? And who’s to say that that’s the ‘correct’ way to be a man? Why can’t being a man encompass all sorts of behavioural characteristics?

      Jul 9, 2014 at 6:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justathought12
      justathought12

      @Ben Dover

      You definitely make some good points. I didn’t mean to say that the community is not diverse, nor that it’s only represented by feminine men; there are definitely some hyper-masculine representations in certain settings. I think the diversity is much more obvious the more entrenched in the gay community people become.

      I’d argue however that in the mainstream media- that if you turn on your TV, the disproportionate representation of gay men is feminine (certainly not all, but most). I’d also argue that my point isn’t limited to what straight people think about gay men: Many of the replies to this article alone reflect what I’m talking about. The mere notion that gay men can be “straight-acting” implies that they simply haven’t yet embraced their own feminine reality, and I’d take issue with that premise. At it’s core, this is definitely the same issue any group can encounter with stereotypes. It doesn’t at all seem crazy, imperceptive, or naive to me to read the mainstream portrayal of gay men as predominantly feminine. The “frustration” I’m referring to is simply the reluctance of some men to come out, or feel connected to the community because in some ways, there is an identity ready to be assigned to them when they do (to a certain extent).

      I think you and I are definitely observing all of this from different vantage points: you perhaps more engaged in the gay community and able to more fully appreciate its diversity. But I don’t quite think that my perception of reality is off, haha,

      Jul 9, 2014 at 8:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • level75RDM
      level75RDM

      @riosig79: “Behavior described as flamboyant, etc. is, statistically speaking, an outlier in regards to the bell shaped curve of gay behaviors. It is exactly this behavior that prohibits acceptance and inclusion.”

      Don’t say something scientific without stating where you got that information. Citation or it didn’t happen.

      And even if it were true, what is inherently maladaptive if they act that way? They’re not killing anyone, are they? Or did they steal from someone? Did they treat somebody else poorly? At best, maybe they’re a little annoying when they go all out. But everybody has annoying qualities. I’d prefer to take it in stride when a few of my own friends act that way.

      There are worse things to be associated with. Like being a drug user, child recruiter, pedophile, or being militantly anti-religion. All of which are gay stereotypes, none of which have anything to do with gender expression. Yet no matter how much we may say otherwise, those stereotypes persist. Just as black people have to contend with the stereotype that they’re unmotivated, uneducated thugs. Or Asians will forever fail to culturally assimilate (and yes, people think all our men are feminine). Or that Latinos probably came here illegally to steal jobs from “real” Americans.

      You’re a minority. Get used to people making prejudgments about you, no matter no matter how unfounded.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 10:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @justathought12: then you need to be more visible. because your “complaint” is negated by this fact: your “complaint” has been made by “guys like you” for decades – and know what it’s not “changing”, because too many “guys like you” giver every excuse to not be visible, to not stand up to be counted, and to let people know “gays like me exist”

      @justathought12:

      I call your bluff. most representations of gay men in the media are NOT “feminine” – wanna try to prove me wrong? list the specific gay male characters you feel are “feminine” (and why)

      the problem is not that “there are too many feminine gays” – but that there are too many wimpy insecure cowardly gay men who “think they’re not feminine” and frankly don’t have the BALLS to come out.

      think about what your’e saying – we have people coming out, young people, in Russia. Uganda. where Coming Out comes with a possible jail sentence, or death.

      and here in north america, wannabe-macho gay men don’t want to come out because “people will think they’re into feminine things”? Do you have any idea how WIMPY that shit sounds?

      grow some balls. stop blaming others for your own cowardice, and COME OUT – be VISIBLE.

      yet again – we have guys saying “well, i’m a masculine gay man and it’s hard because so many people think gays are feminine” – take a lake from those “fems” you think you’re oh-so-different from: stop living every day looking over your shoulder worrying what The Straights are saying about you.

      forgive my angered tone – but this is such an obnoxious topic, that our community has been dealing with for decades -a nd the solution is so simple: all you “i’m not feminine” gays (whatever the hell that even means) need to stop giving excuses for being invisible cowards, and need to Come Out and represent themselves.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 11:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @riosig79:

      http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dad-says-youre-fag-hesaid/http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dad-says-youre-fag-hesaid/

      i wrote an essay about guys like you. i’ll cut right to it: it’s not the fault of those ‘flamboyant gays’ that your shitty parents hated gay people, and that you were too insecure to be a real man, and wasted decades of your own life.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 11:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EGO
      EGO

      Back in the ’60s when I came out, I saw some gay guys “ACTING” feminine and it confused me until I learned that I just needed to be myself and did not need to be flamboyant. There was one guy who was ACTING flamboyantly feminine who was having trouble getting promoted at his job at the bank. I recommended that he stop acting feminine and to be himself. Later, he was promoted.

      Straight guys do not wear their gender on their sleeve and gay guys should not wear their gender on their sleeve. You can be feminine or masculine but when you are flamboyant you are just being belligerent about being gay. If you are more respectful to others about being gay and don’t wear it on your sleeve, straights will treat you just fine.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 12:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @EGO: Spoken like a true coward with no balls, thanks for sharing you wimpy embarrassment. “if you behave the way your ignorant bullies demand, they’ll hate you less!”

      You are a complete and utter wimp.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @EGO: also – i call your bluff, on every single thing you said. you came out in the 1960′s, eh? i call your bluff. i don’t believe a word you wrote. you can prove me wrong by providing the URL to your own site or youtube page and show us all who you are, and the work you’ve been doing since the 1960s.

      i call your bluff.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 1:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @Random: Why are you asking me this? I don’t recall saying anything about how a man SHOULD “act” other than I think we need to treat each other a lot better in this community.

      @justathought12: You do realize that you just basically made Little-Kiwi’s point, right? You confirmed everything that he asserts in his essay. (not the essay above, but tge one he has provided the link to). All you did was sugar coat it behind polite sounding words. You are afraid of being “perceived” as feminine. First off, how can anyone really “perceive” you that way if you are really “oh so masculine”? If you really are such a paragon of butchness then you have nothing to fear. When I come out to people, they don’t magically start seeing mannerisms in me that don’t exist. Usually I just get ignorant statements like “Wow! You don’t ACT gay!” It’s a statement that p*sses me off, really but I know they say it out of ignorance so I just politely explain a few things to them. Secondly, why do you care anyway? The fact that this is such a life stalling fear of yours leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You look down on feminine gay men, this is why you are afraid of being perceived as one. And yiur reasons are exactly what Kiwi says they are. You look down on feminine gay men and are too damned worried about what straight a**holes think. Point blank period.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 2:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bskeete
      bskeete

      I am a so called masculine gay guy who passes for straight.
      I am openly gay, but unassuming. I get flack from so called fem gays, who tell
      me I am not gay enough. WTF?????

      Jul 9, 2014 at 3:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @bskeete: how very interesting. I’ve never in my life heard a feminine gay man say that to any other gay man EVER. Sounds like you have incredibly unique friends.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @bskeete: how very interesting. I’ve never in my life heard of such a thing EVER. Sounds like you have incredibly unique friends.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justathought12
      justathought12

      @ Little-Kiwi : @ DarkZephyr :

      I was trying to provide a window into a challenge some people, including myself, experience. I tend to think trying to understand the perspectives of others is valuable. I don’t look down on feminine gays whatsoever, nor would I ever assert that this challenge is more significant than those faced by gay people in much less tolerant countries. I have enormous respect for people who come out in those countries. I also have respect for people who come out in this country.

      I had never read Little Kiwi’s article until now, but his thoughts in the article are really interesting to think about. I think my larger though, is that it’s less about wanting to be masculine or feminine or whatever the nature of the identity may be, and more about feeling frustrated by the assumptions people make about others. I’d rather make my own impression upon people (and I think I generally do- my earlier points are more about why some people, perhaps myself in the past, may feel hesitation). The same way gay people sometimes talk about how it would be nice if people didn’t automatically assume others were straight, unless presented with evidence to the contrary. Or perhaps it would be nice to not have people assume you’re gay for whatever reason. It’s nice to have people adopt conclusions about who you are and what you’re like because of what you say and do, rather than for stereotypical reasons.

      Little-Kiwi, I agree, coming out is a good solution to all of this. Also, sorry I didn’t prepare your list of characters. Buzzfeed might have one somewhere if you’re in need.

      For the record, I’m not paralyzed by fear, a “paragon of butchness”, cowardly, or looking down on anyone (or oh-so different for that matter). Your intensity is making me feel pretty good about my emotional control- maybe that makes me feminine :)

      Jul 9, 2014 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @justathought12: Go ahead and congratulate yourself on your control but I can imagine that his “intensity” did not form in a vacuum, and perhaps your “emotional control” is due to the fact that you don’t have countless other gay men blaming the fact that you exist for the existence of homophobia rather than the homophobes themselves. And any intensity that you may perceive in my words comes from a passionate desire to see our community, our brotherhood stop cannibalizing itself and start treating itself with respect.

      What I don’t understand is why you or any self identified “masculine” gay man cares how straight people perceive you in this way. I can appreciate that you were trying to help us see where you are coming from but I feel that you simply stated what was already known, but with prettier sounding words. You can’t control the thoughts of homophobes, Justathought. You can only try to educate and inform them by being yourself. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t. When it doesn’t I figure we gotta borrow some advice from Jesus (I am agnostic but I love this line) and shake the dust from our sandals and stop casting our pearls before swine. Because that’s all such people are. Swine.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • level75RDM
      level75RDM

      @DarkZephyr: And that’s the craziest thing about this obsession with stereotypes. It is meant to appeal to the most simple-minded individuals. No critically thinking person, straight or otherwise, would use stereotypes to characterize somebody just because they know this one particular fact about them. Only uneducated people do that.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vive
      vive

      Ironically, so many “masculine” men (gay AND straight ) are really role-playing what they think are masculine traits just as much as some flamboyant fem guys AND girls. Just look, for example, at how straight guys in your local gym talk – they are petrified of seeming too articulate, smart, or educated because in America those are considered effete qualities – better to communicate in grunts or short sentences using simple words or curses, keep facial expressions carefully neutral, walk in a certain way, etc. This hypermasculine behavior is nothing but a form of “drag” either. Many of what we think of as “masculine” traits are not natural, but learned behaviors mimicked out of fear of not fitting in.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paco
      Paco

      @vive: Imagine my disappointment the number of times I have taken a hyper masculine guy to bed and the drag fell off. Not that it was bad. More like expecting strawberry and tasting vanilla instead.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 5:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @bskeete: i call your bluff. citations, and proof, please.

      Jul 9, 2014 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vive
      vive

      Some of the discrimination against fem guys is perpetrated by the very “gay rights” organizations themselves. Look at how carefully the marriage equality movement has distanced themselves from anything fem.

      Also, has anyone noticed that when an athlete in a traditionally very masculine sport, like a football, comes out of the closet, gay organizations and even the president fall over themselves to congratulate him. On the other hand, when someone a little more ambiguous comes out, nobody says a word. Fem guys are considered politically toxic by supposedly “tolerant” politicians and lobbyists.

      Then there is the nonsense, lots of it from gay people themselves, about how gay athletes and soldiers are a good thing because they “break down stereotypes,” which is code for “they don’t make me feel embarrassed in front of my bigoted parents.” How are fem guys supposed to feel welcome in a movement where the way they happen to be (i.e., stereotypical) is considered an embarrassment by some of the very spokesmen for organizations representing them?

      Jul 9, 2014 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @vive: i could kiss you for that.

      well said

      for you: share with friends.
      http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dad-says-youre-fag-hesaid/

      Jul 9, 2014 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      Don’t just blame masculine gay men for this. Our entire society values masculinity while devaluing, demonizing, mocking, and misrepresenting femininity.

      “Gossipy,””Needy,””Catty,””Dramatic,””Helpless,””Whiny,””Hypersensitive,””Vain,””Overemotional,””Illogical,””Bitchy,””Nagging,””Materialistic,””Attention-seeking,””Diva-ish,” In my opinion, these are the characteristics that most gay men are hoping to avoid when they write or say “I’m only interested in masculine guys.”

      It’s not so much that they “look down” on feminine men, but rather that they are (wrongly) associating these negative traits to femininity. Or, to be clearer, they are equating feminism with ONLY these negative traits. I think this all has more to do with sexism than it has to do with some kind of phobia/dislike of effeminate men by other gay men. It should be noted that often times feminine gay males say things like, “I’m only interested in masculine guys” too. Rarely do you hear any gay guy (butch or fem) say, “I’m really only into feminine guys.”

      To answer the question, “Why Do Masculine Gay Guys Look Down on Feminine Gay Guys?” one first needs to answer the question, “Why is femininity, in general, so misrepresented and devalued in our society?” The answer: thousands of years of male/masculine-dominated society that undervalues and misrepresents females and femininity.

      As a masculine gay man, I can tell you that I would date a feminine guy in a heartbeat if he possessed all the positive (but often overlooked) traits that are commonly associated with women and femininity – such as “Loyal,” ”Caring,” ”Nurturing,” ”Perceptive,” ”Encouraging,” Consoling,” and “Compassionate.” The problem with most of these so-called “masculine fem-haters” is that they probably do desire these same positive feminine traits, too — they are simply not expressing it and distinguishing it well enough so it comes across as being cruel or judgy. They might be better off saying, “I don’t look down on you because you’re feminine…. I look down on you because you’re a whiny drama queen. Those two things are NOT synonymous.”

      Jul 10, 2014 at 1:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • candidguy
      candidguy

      Many ‘masculine’ gay guys are basically annoyed by the ‘feminine’ ones. Their over-the-top behavior and the way they speak and dress up reminds them of the most annoying women. Let’s face it, gay men are supposed to like men. If they’re not into women then they may well not be into men who behave like women. Feminine gay guys are basically women with dicks and without boobs.

      Well, what I said above is something that would hold true for some and not for the rest. I happen to be one of those ‘masculine’ gay guys. I’m not really macho myself but not feminine either. And I really can’t stand the way many feminine guys act, particularly the OTT ones.

      It’s not about looking down upon someone, it’s just about not being comfortable around them because of obnoxiousness.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 7:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • candidguy
      candidguy

      @vive: I agree with you to a large extent but not completely.

      While masculine guys (str8 or gay) might try to look too macho, even when they aren’t naturally like that, they would still be ‘naturally’ masculine.

      There’s a difference between being masculine and really macho.

      And as for feminine guys, you find them among the str8 ones as well! It’s just that they are not totally obnoxious, OTT and flamboyant.

      The traits mentioned just above are what many masculine gay and str8 guys (including myself) can’t stand.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 7:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @candidguy This discussion is not about so called obnoxiously flamboyant feminine gay men, it’s about feminine gay men period and how other gay men sometimes treat them. In your own post you pointed out that not all are like that. I would venture to add that MOST are not like that. So your statement is misplaced. Also, if you find the more flamboyant guys “annoying”, that’s not looking UP at them, it’s looking DOWN on them. I have to wonder also if you are aware of the mysoginistic implications of much of your post.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 11:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @candidguy: Do you hate OTT “ultra-masc-bro-dude” gays as well? You should. They’re obnoxious as fuck, and their internalized homophobia and insecurity is, frankly, pathetic and decidedly un-manly.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 12:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @DarkZephyr: yet again – i’m standing by it – all these “i’m masculine, and i find over the top feminine guys annoying” comments are, as they always are, 100% Anonymous.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 12:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vive
      vive

      @candidguy, “While masculine guys (str8 or gay) might try to look too macho, even when they aren’t naturally like that, they would still be ‘naturally’ masculine.”

      No, I think what you consider “`naturally’ masculine” is also largely a culturally learned mask. That becomes obvious once we observe that in various non-Western cultures men behave in ways that look to the Westerner to be markedly feminine, or have mannerisms that we would associate to be stereotypically female.

      So most North-American `masculine-acting’ men inhabit a learned stereotype without being aware of it (anymore), as much as `feminine’ men do.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 1:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      It seems like @Little-Kiwi is equating being visible with being obnoxious. There is a difference. Sure, people notice us when we’re obnoxious, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. If all gay men started the trend of walking on all four limbs, picking their noses and eating it in public, and farting in heterosexual folks’ faces you can bet they’d get noticed. Do you think those actions would really advance GLBT causes? Would we accuse those among us who refuse to eat their own boogers of being fake and weak? Would we accuse them of selling out because they want to fit in with all the rest of the hetero-normative non-booger eaters? One can be incredibly visible and not be obnoxious.

      Perhaps I’m being somewhat hyperbolic, but my point (I hope) is clear. Inauthentic actions and behaviors with high shock value performed in the name of becoming more visible is not what has helped the LGBTQ community progress. Neither have closed-minded, hyper-masculine GI-Joe archetype gays who feign disgust at anything feminine or anything that transgresses strict gender roles.

      Good folks being their authentic, respectful and assertive selves has. I want the LGBT community to be visible for the amazing things we do including the ways in which we overcome adversity. I am one of the top five most visible and known gay individuals at my place of employment (which employs and enrolls over 18,000 university students, faculty, and staff). I didn’t have to change who I was (become flamboyant, become sassy, or become obnoxious) in order to be visible. I simply needed to be active, introduce myself, spend time with people who aren’t gay, refuse to apologize, share my story, and take a step out of the gay neighborhood bar from time to time. That is how you become visible and effective change agents.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @TheDudesBF: Show us your visibility, please. Thanks.

      I’m not equating being visible with obnoxious, that’s a projection on your part, and your strawman “what-if” scenario has no basis in reality and shall be ignored.

      You can do what I do – be visible. *Can* you be visible? Click my name to see me.

      Flatly – I call your bluff. Proof please. URLs to see you.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 2:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @TheDudesBF:

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2014/04/are-pride-parades-too-sexual-is-there.html

      there’s me. i don’t think it’s particularly obnoxious. now you can share your own non-obnoxious self with everyone.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 2:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vive
      vive

      @Little-Kiwi, and you’re cute as well as smart ;)

      B.t.w, I just came back from Toronto where I spent most of the summer so far. World Pride was indeed very interesting, including the few naked guys and girls :) It is surprising to me how little exposure World Pride got in the U.S. gay media though; you would think gay Americans would be a little less provincial.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 3:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • candidguy
      candidguy

      @DarkZephyr: According to you, “MOST are not like that.” If that’s true then why are we having this discussion anyway and why was this article even written?

      I say what I see and how I feel myself. Just being HONEST (if you know what that means).

      AND I do NOT look down upon ANYBODY! Getting annoyed by somebody’s behavior is NOT EQUAL to looking down upon them. Please grow up and face facts!

      Jul 10, 2014 at 4:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • candidguy
      candidguy

      @vive: Your point is valid but I feel mine is too and I think it’s a never ending discussion :)

      Jul 10, 2014 at 4:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      @Little-Kiwi: First of all, I’m not sure why this has to become so personal. I’m simply sharing my opinion of the topic at hand and in no way have I have asserted that YOU, personally, were obnoxious.

      Although, I will NOW say that the repeated “Bam! I call your bluff” statement is kind of obnoxious because I never purported to be presenting anything other than my opinion on this topic. Are you trying to say that I’m bluffing about what my own opinion is or isn’t? If you tell me you that you believe the color green is your favorite and I say, “BAM I call your bluff!!”… it would get annoying, right? Your opinion on this matter is valid and so is mine.

      Secondly, you don’t know me and I never asked to know you! I most certainly don’t need to prove or present evidence to you that I am an out and visible gay man because, again, this isn’t a debate. What are you really trying to get me to share? I don’t have a URL or a blog or any other self-aggrandizing site. That’s just not in my character. I’m not judging you for doing so (in fact I liked your video). I’m simply saying that I don’t have one but I’m still visible in other ways and it would be great if you respected me enough to believe that.

      My point (which I think you both missed and proved simultaneously) is that authenticity is what’s important. To thine own self be true! It would be as inauthentic for me to grow my hair long, put on a dress, makeup, and high heels as it might be for an effeminate guy to strap on a football uniform and play defensive end. There isn’t anything in the gay gene that automatically makes gay men effeminate or masculine so if a gay man happens to be masculine or feminine it doesn’t mean they’re “acting” or “hiding” or “conforming” or being ashamed of anything. Likewise, there’s nothing in the gay gene that automatically makes gay men obnoxious. In my opinion, if someone is acting obnoxiously and disrespectfully it has nothing to do with his sexual orientation or his gender expression. It has everything to do with how he was raised and his character. Therefore it is WAY OK for me to ignore or distance myself from him.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 5:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @candidguy: So wait… You are changing your initial stance of not all are like that to MOST *are* like that? You just undid the part of your post that was a tiny attempt to make nicey-nice where you back peddled slightly to make it sound like you aren’t lumping all feminine gay men in the “obnoxiously flamboyant and annoying” camp. Not all, just *most*, right bro? Because after all “why else would we be having this discussion”? Right? I mean it’s ALL the fault of feminine guys that *certain* self identified masculine guys are a**holes to them in bars, on social media and on dating apps. Correct? It’s certainly nothing to do with anything obnoxious about these specific “straight acting” guys, right? And of course Jews really WERE to blame for Germany’s problems or why else woukd they have been butchered by Nazis by the millions? And we gays really WILL destroy the basic foundations of the wholesome straight family if we get married or why else would Republicans be having that discussion? Right? That is a fine piece of logic that you have employed there, bro-man. You impress me! As for “I’m just being honest” protest, duh. I didn’t think you were joking. What’s your point? Homophobes are just being honest when they say that they hate all if us.

      @Little-Kiwi: Yeah, I can see that as being quite likely.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • level75RDM
      level75RDM

      @TheDudesBF: What you’re seeing in this thread is the power that gay men give to stereotypes. Whether people are for living up to them or living against them, gay men are obsessed with gay stereotypes. Often, it even seems to be reactionary.

      The men here who insist they are masculine do actually have a case when they say that there are gay guys out there who say things like, “Any gay who doesn’t stan for a diva may as well have their gay card revoked.” I’ve seen sentiments similar to that around the internet, whether it be about Judy Garland, Britney Spears, fashion sense, or any other thing stereotypically associated with gay men. And when I see it, I agree that it’s among the stupidest things I’ve ever read. How dare anybody be so presumptuous as to call me of a failure of an LGBT individual over something so superficial?

      But that’s not what he original article was about. The original writing, that has gotten people so riled up, calls out those individuals who make equally asinine comments like:
      “Yeah, I’m gay. But not that kind of gay. I’m ‘straight acting.’”
      “Men should be masculine. If I wanted to marry a girl, I’d turn straight.”
      and, by the far the worst and most simple-minded,
      “If only gay guys would stop being such queens, the rest of the world would accept us.” You’d think people would be smart enough not to say this one, but lo, t’s turned up in the comments section of this very post.
      Those kinds of comments do demean femininity and people are in the right to take offense to that. Because there is nothing inherently wrong with being feminine. What’s more, just like the opposite end of the spectrum, it also undermines the authenticity of others. From both ends, you’ve got people shouting at each, “Who are you to tell me I’m not really like this?!”

      What’s more, when people insist they’re “straight acting” or “not like most gay guys”, it’s still building oneself around a stereotype, only in opposition of it. We’ve all seen it before:
      “I’m gay. But not that kind of gay. I don’t like fashion, or shopping, or pop music, or Glee, or chick flicks, or Barbara Streisand, or hairdressing!”
      Which begs the question, “Well, what do you like? And what’s wrong with all of that?…and who was asking anyway?!”
      Even though they don’t think so, they’ve just gave power to the stereotype to define people, rather than building themselves as if the stereotype itself doesn’t exist.

      Gay guys, for whatever reason, are obsessed with stereotypes. Whether they’re trying to play it up or actively deny it, way too much energy is being expended on stereotypes.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 8:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @level75RDM: Great post!!!

      Jul 10, 2014 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • level75RDM
      level75RDM

      @DarkZephyr: In one sense, I might have an idea why gay guys are so fixated on stereotypes. Well…I just thought this idea up now anyway.

      When I was young, this girl in the school bus once called me a “Ching Chong Chang.” She even went ahead and pulled back her eyes into slits. When I went home and told my parents what she did and asked what she meant by that, they used that as a teachable moment about racism. And they always reminded me that, no matter what, people will look at me differently because I am a minority.

      I get the feeling though that most parents never raise their children considering the possibility they made grow up gay. They never tell their children that people will prejudge them. Or that people will grasp for any reason, real or imagined, to treat them as a person of lesser worth. Their gay kids will never have that teachable moment. In fact, my own parents would point at two men walking down the street together holding hand and call that disgusting. It was only as I began to grow up that their tone suddenly shifted to one where they were like “We will love you no matter what and it’s not our right to judge people like that” when it was becoming apparent I was disinterested in girls and that I was actually fixated on one of my male friends.

      My suspicion is that many gay men are thrown into the world unprepared to being treated as minorities. I myself will never describe myself as more masculine or more feminine. I’ll tell people what I like and they will make that judgment for themselves. Indeed, they’ll make that judgment whether I want them to or not.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 8:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      @level75RDM: Great ideas and similar to the ones I made two posts ago about how femininity isn’t inherently obnoxious, catty, gossipy, insecure, or overly-dramatic.

      But that is how our society stereotypes females and subsequently femininity so it would be understandable why some gay men wanting to avoid all of that petty crap would (incorrectly) associate these two concepts and say they weren’t into feminine men.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 9:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      @level75RDM: And, it would also make sense that men who are obnoxious, catty, gossipy, insecure, and overly-dramatic are being rejected by masculine men and are trying to use the excuse “Oh, he doesn’t like me because I’m feminine”. Uhh.. wrong. He doesn’t like you because you’re insufferable.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 9:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • level75RDM
      level75RDM

      @TheDudesBF: Yes, some gay men do not want to be associated with being feminine because femininity is associated with being catty, gossipy, and overly-dramatic. But they would not be in the right to do so and that is not fair to people who are feminine…Or women for that matter.

      So because of this unfair association, feminine gay men must be talked down to by masculine gay men? The uneasiness is understandable in the same way that profiling middle easterners at the airport is “understandable”. Being understandable doesn’t make it right, and people should be trying to examine the reasons for their belief. Not willfully playing into it.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 9:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @level75RDM: *Thunderous applause*. You and Kiwi are my two new favorite Queerty users lol.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 10:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      @level75RDM: I agree completely. No, feminine men SHOULD NOT be talked down to by inarticulate and unspecific masculine men. Please don’t think I’m supporting guys who prejudge, who are insensitive, and who are inarticulate.

      I should have written “It’s no surprise” instead of “understandable” because what I’m expressing is that almost EVERYONE (women, men, straight, gay, bi, etc) misunderstands and devalues what femininity is really about. Even many other feminine men. (Trust me I know a lot of feminine men who are only interested in dating masculine men).

      I did examine the reasons in my original post. This has more to do with sexism, and ignorance or outdated views about gender expression from ALL of society (not just masculine gay men).

      Jul 10, 2014 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      The article could just as easily be, “Why do so many straight men look down on feminine gay men?”

      or “Why do so many women look down on feminine gay men?”

      or “Why do so many lesbians look down on feminine gay men?”

      or “Why do even so many feminine gay men look down on other feminine gay men?”.

      My point is that this isn’t just a masculine gay man problem. This is a societal problem.

      The answers to ALL of the above questions are likely all almost identical.

      Jul 10, 2014 at 10:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @TheDudesBF: “My point is that this isn’t just a masculine gay man problem. This is a societal problem.

      The answers to ALL of the above questions are likely all almost identical.”

      I see your point, and while its awful that this exists in all of the areas you mention, I feel that its existence within the gay community is even more reprehensible. So while its not only a masculine gay man problem, those masculine gay men who treat feminine gay men this way should be held to a much higher standard. We in the gay male community should all be supporting each other and not adding to the troubles that we already have with heterosexual people. We should be a brotherhood and fraternity and not attacking or mistreating ourselves from within. I find it shameful. I do not identify as masculine or feminine because of the prejudices that are going on within our community. I will admit to a time when I did my best to sound as heteronormatively masculine as I possibly could, I was consciously aware of every word and syllable that I uttered and how I said them, how much emphasis I placed on the “S” and the “T” when I spoke and what I did with my hands and wrists and how I walked, what I wore, etc. Now I just don’t give a crap and its very freeing. I don’t care how I am perceived at all any longer. It feels great.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 2:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @TheDudesBF: then stop likening “obnoxious” to “visible”, kiddo. And likening “feminine” to “gossipy, catty, bitchy, etc”

      you know – the same way many self-styled “masculine” men aren’t actually “masculine” – they’re just insecure homosexuals with no balls who don’t want people to think that they’re gay, who adopt an almost aggressively stupid, boorish, uncultured, neanderthalian persona.

      right? ;-)

      or as a friend said to a former classmate: “You’re not actually that masculine. You’re just unattractive and badly dressed”

      ;-)

      as per my “show yourself” comments – here’s why i make them, because those who denigrate perceived ‘effeminacy’ and tout their own ‘masculinity’ are, for some reason, never able to say “and here i am, here’s my example of it”

      the real problem is that too many gay men still define “masculinity” as something seen through the eyes of anti-gay heterosexual men.

      i went through it in my early 20s. then i grew some actual balls and started living my own life, not giving a flying fuck how someone else may choose to see or perceive me. you know, like a man. not a boy.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 11:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @level75RDM: AMEN

      i made this video a few years ago. it’s about this, specifically:

      Jul 11, 2014 at 11:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      and to reiterate: i’ve never once met a “masculine gay guy” who looks down on, denigrates, distances himself from, or mocks “feminine guys”. I’ve only ever met or encountered insecure cowardly faux-macho posturing wimpy gay men whose “looking down on feminine guys” is an expression of their own insecurity and emasculation fears – usually from being raised by a misogynistic and anti-gay family.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 11:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CoachS
      CoachS

      “Feminine gay men don’t need to become more masculine to make you more comfortable, just like you don’t have to become completely straight just to make suspiciously-curious homophobes more comfortable”.

      Shouldn’t the analogy have been… “just like you don’t need to be more flamboyant to prove you’re gay”? I find the discrimination within the gay world to be the opposite.

      You even imply within the article that not letting our freak flag fly is a self rejection of what we truly are. Homosexual doesn’t equate to homogenous – but that attitude is exactly what keeps young gay athletes in the closet. They all believe that they’ll be expected to continue to be something that they’re not – just on the other side of the equation.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 11:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @CoachS: 100% incorrect. and here’s why.

      nobody, in any comment or article, has said “you need to be more flamboyant to prove that you’re gay”. at all. in any way. it’s not been said. and flamboyant means “loud and attention getting” – you know, like most straight guys at live sporting events.

      young gay athletes are not closeted “because other gays let their freak flag fly” – but because there’s a baseless, unintelligent knee-jerk response in culture that those who “do” are LESSER – the problem is guys like “CoachS” have capers for testes and aren’t being the Out Visible Role Models that claim people need.

      those athletes you speak of need to do the exact same thing every other young gay person needs to do: stop living in fear of what others may choose to think about, or perceive, you. that’s it.

      a “flamboyant and effeminate” twin doesn’t live his life worrying what a straight anti-gay bigot might think of him. those hypotethical closeted gay athletes you talk about? they need to do the same. and stop blaming the Out Loud and Proud for their own insecurity, and stop blaming them for the homophobic attitudes of straight anti-gay bigots.

      how about you lead by example, Coach, and show us your awesome example of male homosexuality? oh wait. you won’t.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 12:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheDudesBF
      TheDudesBF

      @Little-Kiwi:

      Are you even reading what I am writing, or are you so interested in debating and arguing with someone that you’re not taking time to actually read the comments?

      1) I’m not likening Visible to Obnoxious. I say quite clearly (multiple times) that one can be both VISIBLE and NOT OBNOXIOUSLY OTT. Therefore, they’re not synonymous words. And, I offer myself as an example. Don’t misquote me. Don’t project onto me what you wished I had written so that you can argue against it.

      2) I’m not likening Feminine with Catty, gossipy, and overly-dramatic. You CLEARLY haven’t read any of my posts. I’m saying that MANY men DO incorrectly liken these two things and they are wrong to do so, but it is not surprising because EVERYONE (including many feminine men) do so. I state multiple times that this is unfair, prejudgment, and inarticulate. Similarly it is unfair for Catty, gossipy, needy, and obnoxiously overly-dramatic men to whine, “Ohhh.. that frat dude doesn’t like me because I’m feminine” WRONG. He doesn’t like you because you’re insufferable.

      3) And this is important. Many “Self-Styled” Masculine gay men ARE actually and entirely authentically masculine. I know this may be difficult to believe, but having a gay gene doesn’t mean a feminine gender identity gene is fused to it.

      MY default is not feminine. Therefore my stereotypical masculine interests and masculine mannerisms are not being faked. I truly like these things. I truly am that way. For me to change would be entirely inauthentic. I have no interest one way or the other in fitting into a hetero-normative society. It just happens that I do. That doesn’t preclude me from challenging this same society about their beliefs – which I do every single day through my education work.

      Some men’s default is feminine and that’s totally OK. They should be honored and loved and treated fairly and equitably. Mine is not. For you or anyone in this stream to purport that my (or anyone’s, for that matter) masculinity is ANYTHING but entirely authentic if we tell you it is authentic is complete hypocrisy and disrespectful.

      Do I realize that some gay men whose default is feminine are pretending to be masculine and enjoy masculine privilege in order to fit in? Of course I realize that. But we don’t necessarily know them. We don’t know their lives or their specific hardships and challenges. We don’t know their struggles or what they have to do in order to survive in their family and their worlds? Gay men are being murdered all over the place around the world and we’re sitting here on this forum judging gay men everywhere for not dying their hair pink and putting on makeup if they want to? You don’t know what their lives are like. You can’t sit in judgement of someone else’s choices when you don’t know their story.

      Moral of THIS story: Gay men should stop being so judgmental all-around. Masculine, feminine, and anywhere in between.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @TheDudesBF: where have i ever linked being gay to being perceived-”feminine”? where have i ever said “authentic masculinity is an act/affectation?”

      answer: never

      “Gay men are being murdered all over the place around the world and we’re sitting here on this forum judging gay men everywhere for not dying their hair pink and putting on makeup if they want to?”

      Who’s done that? where? i haven’t.

      i’ve not seen you. i can’t see you “masculinity”. i can’t tell whether it’s authentic: you’re not a person who’s shown themselves: at present “YOU” are nothing more than words on a screen.

      where have i, or anyone else in here, said “your masculinity is inauthentic”? You’re making up an attack that doesn’t exist. You’ve not even shown yourself – i can’t comment on the “masculinity” of an anonymous and invisible non-entity, dude.

      “I know this may be difficult to believe, but having a gay gene doesn’t mean a feminine gender identity gene is fused to it.”

      Where have i ever suggested otherwise?

      I haven’t. I rather explicitly stated the opposite.

      read this. try to read all of it.

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2013/09/mask-for-masc.html

      http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.ca/2012/06/straight-is-not-compliment.html

      the last one touches more on what i wish our community would address: that too many gay men still think “masculine means People Can’t Tell That You’re Gay” – which is complete and utter bullshit.

      for once, i wish someone in here would do what i do – and show themselves and the example they claim to embody and live.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • candidguy
      candidguy

      @DarkZephyr: Having a discussion with you would be like banging my head against a wall :p NO THANK YOU!

      #SICKofDRAMAQUEENS

      Jul 11, 2014 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @candidguy: Acting like a drama queen is an odd way to express being sick of drama queens, but see ya!

      Jul 11, 2014 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • i43neile
      i43neile

      I don’t have problems with femme guys.

      I just don’t like the attitude of some femme guys. I know they have it hard being feminine but it really does not give them the right to belittle anyone.

      I have met some femme guys during highschool and I hated them for outing me. Actually, they didn’t know if I was even gay. They just assumed I was because I had no girlfriends. And then there’s their sarcasm that can be very inappropriate at times.

      So far most of the femme guys I met are like that. It was only in Thailand that I’ve met a lot of femme guys that were really friendly and kind.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @i43neile: Could your definition of “femme gay” be a bit narrow perhaps? I ask this with all due respect.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 9:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CoachS
      CoachS

      Because @Little-Kiwi … you know EXACTLY who I am and how I live my life and you apparently deal with young athletes and know how they think, as well.

      “Nunh unh” is not a debatable comment (no matter how many words you use to say it). Your prejudices are showing.

      Jul 11, 2014 at 10:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @CoachS: He can only form his opinion of you based on your words here, and your initial post showed no compassion for the feminine gay men that are treated like crap by certain self identified “masculine” gay men, which was the point of this discussion. Your concern is clearly only for the masculine men because you seem to equate being athletic with being masculine, ignoring the fact that Kiwi himself has been an athlete. And I do not identify as masculine and I have also been an athlete. There are many fine gay athletes who do NOT identify as masculine, CoachS so your point makes little sense.

      Jul 12, 2014 at 1:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @CoachS: Prove it.

      I call your bluff. What prejudices? My prejudice against insecure anonymous cowards who blame everyone else for their problems? you made unintelligent straw man arguments. I’m calling your bluff – you can always do what i do; show yourself and the example you claim to live every day.

      Jul 12, 2014 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      the most masculine men don’t “identify as masculine” – why not? they’re too busy not giving a fuck.

      “i’m masculine”, say people who really want you to think that they’re masculine.

      “masc” is like “COOL” – to be it, one must first stop hoping that people think you are it.

      Jul 12, 2014 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cee
      Cee

      @Little-Kiwi: Do you like Barbara Streisand or do you idolize her? A lot of gay men idolize female celebrities. What’s that about?

      Jul 12, 2014 at 10:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @Cee: Because a lot of gay men like talent. Is that a problem?

      Jul 13, 2014 at 3:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little-Kiwi
      Little-Kiwi

      @Cee: I think her voice is astounding, and her talent incredible. And, weirdly, we grow up thinking than an appreciation for her is “bad” because it’s a “stereotype”

      as if gay men who appreciate art, culture and talent should be mocked for it.

      i’m also obsessed with david bowie, the ramones, cheap trick, lou reed, iggy pop, and yet i’ve never been made to feel “embarrassed” for my love of hard classic punk rock. ever.

      i don’t really do Idolizing. Although Cyndi Lauper is my goddess.

      i find the gay men who fret most about “other gay men idolizing women” are really just saying “my family looked down on gays that do that”

      Jul 13, 2014 at 10:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlexM123
      AlexM123

      How are you going to write a topic on why macsuline men frown upon effeminate gays and then proceed to talk shit about masculine gay men? Who the hell are you to imply that masculine gay men are all self-loathing? How does being an effeminate queen make you bettet as a gay man? How does it make you any braver? It doesn’t. As gay men, we all go through the same struggle of enduring homophobia. Furthermore, your post did nothong more than further my dislike of effeminate gay men because you came as such stereotypical queen with it. The truth is that if more gay men were masculine and acted as such, there wouldn’t be such a stigma against gay people. No one would look at a gay football player and think “He’s a faggot” but that’s exactly what people think when they see guys with pink hair and sequined shirts.

      I think that effeminate gay guys make the rest of us look bad in the same way that black criminals make the hard working black people look bad. And even if they didn’t I still wouldn’t like them. I am a MAN and i want to date a MAN,not a a guy who could pass off as having a vagina.

      Jul 20, 2014 at 2:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @AlexM123: This is a bit of an odd comment when you talk about black criminals making black people look bad. White people can be criminals too, y’know, but does anyone seriously believe that all white people are bad apples or that’s it’s a poor reflection on the whole of white society? Er, no.

      Your last sentence about being ‘a MAN who want(s) to date a MAN’ is very revealing as it suggests you think there’s a certain way for a man to behave which, presumably means adhering to heteronormative masculinity. And it’s the very same heternormative masculinity that perpetuates the ‘enduring homophobia’ that you are only too aware of. Can you not see the connection?

      And if you think that if all gay men behaved like jocks there would be no more homophobia then you are very sadly mistaken. There’s a black president in the Whitehouse and yet racism in the US shows no signs of dying out any time soon.

      Jul 20, 2014 at 6:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • XxCactusPracticexX
      XxCactusPracticexX

      The pith of perceived masculinity is made irrefutable by the belief that if one has a penis he should conduct himself within a set construct of ideals and mannerisms. The pinnacle law of this belief mandates that a penis should only be used for heterosexual sex. It is saddening and hilarious that a large portion of gay men have subscribed to the ‘man bible’ and omit the one law that condemns them. And you thought the Christians were hypocrites. No shortage of irony there. There isn’t any question that playing this game can earn you a better slice of the social pie, but be forewarned. Every game has it’s price.

      I did a little experiment myself. Three months ago I went out with my guys to a popular night spot that we frequent and instead of being myself, as I usually am, I decided to put on a masculine facade. Not that the men at this bar are unwelcoming of effeminate men, or that I’m not attractive. Everyone just always seems standoffish and ‘clicky’, but this experiment would prove otherwise. So there I was, ‘BRO’ from head to toe. My friends were fully aware of this for I had traded in my fedora, skimpy tank, skinny jeans, and ankle-booties for a Ralph Lauren Polo, Pastel golf-shorts, and Sperries with a Sam Adams Summer Ale to boot. I was so serious! I told my friends to be on the look out for wandering eyes, and within five seconds of my microaggressive legspreading and crotch grabbing the weight and insecurities of the entire bar fell upon me. No joke. Glances, inviting smiles, touching, groping. One guy, who may have been a Greek god, even introduced himself to us, apologized for what he was about to say, and proceeded to tell me that I was going home with him, no exceptions. He even offered me Denny’s for breakfast. Classy right? I had seen the other side, and it kind of hurt. Preference has a lot to do with it, but so does trend. Our culture demands that we unsheathe ourselves with relentless exercise and be the Sean Cody model that is hidden within us all. Be the prototypical man. Aren’t you a man? Then be one. When did we stop believing that who we are is good enough? That the fight we fight is not against our own but against an idea that serves to dehumanize us? When did we start believing in this idea? Have we believed it all along?

      Newsflash! Being too gay stops at being gay. You can be the truest form of yourself and someone will always call your bluff. Our culture, along with the human collective, is in dire need of a heaping dose of ‘I don’t give a fuck’. Who cares if anyone is more or less of anything than you? The truth is most do. Insecurity has not lost it’s prevalence. But I’m here to tell who ever is reading to stop giving a fuck. You will feel as if a load has been lifted from your shoulders as soon as you stop giving a fuck. You may not be strong enough to do this now, but one day, rest assured, you will run out of fucks to give.

      Jul 21, 2014 at 12:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whatevermaaaan
      whatevermaaaan

      Here we go… These issues in gay culture are not about who is feminine and who is masculine. I think it is about narcissism. To spread oneself out and about in such a flambouyant and often agressively rude way is nothing short of narcisistic behaviour. It is unattractive no matter how you display it.
      The average person is not homophobic – in other words they do not fear you, rather they are angry and annoyed at your obnoxiousness. Get it?!
      Again, men who bash obvious gays are not scared of you, they are embarrassed by you. In some situation it is clear that you may be considered to be fucking up their chances of being accepted as un-obvious gay men in a majority straight world. Yes I am afraid it’s the obnoxious fems that make the unobvious non-fem gays be treated badly in mainstream football teams for example. Talking generally, the average straight men’s mindset about gay people are formed by fems dancing in parades I am afraid.
      It is time people stopped talking about their right to be themselves, and start to consider others by displaying decent CHARACTER, for it is then that respect happens.

      Jul 29, 2014 at 2:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whatevermaaaan
      whatevermaaaan

      @Ihadtosayit: even that word Butch stems from Gay Culture. I find it repulsive because it is so loaded with sarcasm. Its negative to me because it seems gay culture thinks natural masculinity is fake. Its like if one displays a skill percieved as masculine or “straight” that that is funny and cant be real. It bugs me.

      Jul 29, 2014 at 2:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whatevermaaaan
      whatevermaaaan

      Continuing on from what I wrote above. I dont think people should be abusive ever. I am simply stating what I observe. Another aspect of this percieved homophobia is intolerance of people behaving differently from the majority, but again it’s not a fear, it’s an intolerance. It’s not good.
      I have however also observed some pretty obnoxious obvious fem gay men giving out a lot of attitude and abuse and in that instance I think they are asking for people to get angry back. People die this way, its true, or bashings occur. Its not good, but I dont always think the other person instigates it. There are some gay guys with a lot of attitude out there.

      Jul 29, 2014 at 3:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whatevermaaaan
      whatevermaaaan

      Another thing that comes to mind is I think SOME fem behaviour is LEARNT because some guys think they have to behave in that certain manner to be accepted by gay culture. We all see the way some people feminise their friends and use an entire new language all of a sudden. They dress differently and sometimes their speach really changes. For those gay men who do not change in their general mannerisms and demeaner this is hard to watch and to respect. The fact these men who do change are so stubborn and extreme about the way they embrace this new life and that they suddenly want to throw their new lifestyle in the entire worlds face can simply be taken as an attack upon the rest of the world and as a desire to try undermine the way things are. Quite frankly there has to be a better way to find acceptance. I dont know the answers but I do think we all need a chill pill and try to imagine how we are being perceived from other walks of life.

      Jul 29, 2014 at 3:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @whatevermaaaan: I find your comment odd as it implies that masculine men are always the height of decorum and civility and men can’t be rude and obnoxious, which I doubt you actually believe, but it makes it easier for you to be judgemental about supposedly ‘feminine’ men, if you frame the discussion is such terms.

      Everybody should aspire to be polite and likeable and, in that sense, whether they are masculine or feminine doesn’t make a jot of difference. I mean, a nice person is a nice person, right?

      Jul 29, 2014 at 6:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Random
      Random

      @whatevermaaaan: Also, you need to appreciate that ALL gendered behaviour is learned regardless of whether it’s masculine or feminine. If you think about the ‘jock’ persona, there’s no gene that makes young men act like that; they see other men behaving like that and simply copy them. Their behaviour is no more ‘natural’ than that of a feminine guy.

      Jul 29, 2014 at 6:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SimonRobertHarris
      SimonRobertHarris

      Vaguely interesting…but some of the comments make more sense. Reads a bit angry…I don’t look down on anyone being flamboyant. I just don’t find it sexually appealing for me. Individual choices aren’t knocking our gay family…each to their own!! Norms need to be expanded like being equal in the world. Acting camp is something learnt and taught…like being a bigot, redneck etc…from a spiritual point of view and reincarnation…if were female in a previous life then that essence might linger through feeling like we’re not quite right being male…if men dress in a frock, great!…if your wanting to be noticed you will but don’t get upset, if someone upsets you!! That’s the world it happens across the board. If your viewed as fat, ugly, too skinny, bad mother, bad breath, whatever the criticism!! Love to all!! Sx

      Jul 29, 2014 at 3:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whatevermaaaan
      whatevermaaaan

      @Random: You are right there. The notion of straightness is damaged and broken. I come from the perspective of coping in a majority straight culture. I can see why some people act the way they do, treat others the way they do. Its fascinating , frustrating and sometimes really sad.
      No I would say not all gendered behaviour is learned. Much of it is natural from birth. Boys generally like certain things and girls like certain things but there are always exceptions and some of that reflects queer culture- people out of the majority behavioural patterns and thats ok cuz its part of the spectrum of the wonderful Humanity that we are. We all just need to accept it all and not be so narrow minded and trying to box each other.

      Jul 31, 2014 at 10:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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