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Why Isn’t the Mormon Church Campaigning Harder Against Salt Lake’s Discrimination Bill?

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Isn’t Salt Lake City supposed to be home to America’s largest tax-exempt bigot institution? Then who does this city think it is, trying to pass a bill banning discrimination against LGBTs?

Democratic Mayor Ralph Becker, who took the job last year, has already been circulating a draft of the bill for public comment, and next month is expected to hand a final version to the City Council for a vote. “I’m committed to promoting equity and achieving the ideals of our Constitution — that no state shall deny any person equal protection [under] the laws,” says Becker, which must’ve caused the Mormon Church to raise its eyebrows and stammer, “Who elected this guy?” (For his part, Becker promised to work with church leaders, but only about things like climate change.)

The city ordinance — which would add sexuality and gender identity to a list of protected classes when it comes to things like housing and employment — would certainly help folks like Candice Metzler, a transgender woman who lost her job at a home inspection company after clients complained about her dressing as a lady.

Of course, discrimination based on LGBT status is a unique problem that only Salt Lake City suffers. It certainly does not extend all the way to Anchorage.

By:           editor editor
On:           Aug 24, 2009
Tagged: , , , ,
  • 41 Comments
    • JDD
      JDD

      Hmmm… could it be the Mormon Church really was worried only about preserving the definition of marriage, like it claimed? Could it be it really isn’t opposed to gay anti-discrimination laws? Ahh, no, of course not. We have to demonize and scapegoat them at every opportunity, right? They’re bigots no matter what they do. And we’re not bigots, even though we hate them blindly and mutter hate speech in front of their churches. It’s just that simple.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      JDD…..Yea its pretty simple. You stick your noses into our business and deny us the exact same rights as hetro couples have any you deserve to be demonized……..It always seems so strange a religion that was founded on multiple wives being against a group of people who only want one partner!!!!

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Balance
      Balance

      Um, dressing as a lady has little to do with sexuality and more to do with professionalism. … If I showed up to work in violation of it’s dress code, I’d be fired too.

      Stop looking for reasons to cry victim.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @JDD: Well, they are bigots. If it looks like evil, feels like evil, smells like evil, and tastes like evil…chances are it’s evil.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Balance
      Balance

      Terrwill, whose sticking noses where? It’s the homosexual crowd trying to stick it’s nose into the rest of everyone else’s business.

      And then you go behaving like a narrow-minded bigot spreading lies and deception in a remedial attempt to get your way.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Balance
      Balance

      Well said VernonVanderbilt. You just described the last Gay Pride parade in my town. Full of evil and bigots.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Balance: You are a foolish, foolish pseudo-human.

      “Terrwill, whose sticking noses where?”

      The Mormons stuck their noses into California, for starters, mucking around with things they had no business getting involved in.

      “It’s the homosexual crowd trying to stick it’s nose into the rest of everyone else’s business.”

      Actually, we couldn’t care less about anyone else’s business. We just want the equal rights that our taxes should be guaranteeing us. Equal rights for GLBT people in no way infringes on the rights of any other group.

      “And then you go behaving like a narrow-minded bigot spreading lies and deception in a remedial attempt to get your way.”

      Actually, we’re not the ones who have had to resort to lies in order to get our way. The Mormons did that, though, like a thousand religious groups before them. Their Prop H8 campaign was chock full of outright lies designed to demonize us to advance their own spurious, political agenda. It’s not bigotry when you point out bigotry. Logic fail.

      “Well said VernonVanderbilt. You just described the last Gay Pride parade in my town. Full of evil and bigots.”

      So you were there? You’re talking about people protesting it, I’m sure.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      Ya, I’m going to have to agree with JDD. Actually, the Mormon church has made several statements about this, (e.g. “The Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights.”)

      I love how it has to be Mormons vs. Gays. It’s an intellectually lazy and false statement. I actually have NEVER MET A MORMON, EVER, who does not think that LGBT individuals do not deserve every right that hetero’s have (save gay marriage…which I know is a big thing, but if we’re going to make the argument, let’s keep it at that). And the church (per the statement above) wants LGBT individuals to have all the rights a married couple would have…except calling marriage.

      So stop with the us vs. them. The real problem is the fanatics on the fringe who feed intolerance…like the author of this article.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      Oh, and vernonvanderbilt, are you suggesting that we should exclude an entire group of people from the democratic process because you disagree with them? Remember, that Mormon’s represent 2% of Californians…and the No on 8 campaign spent MORE Than the Yes on 8 side. I’m not saying I agree with it or not. I’m just saying your argument lacks intellectual rigor.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Cicero: I’m not suggesting we exclude anyone from the “democratic” process. I do, howevver, suggest that equal rights should never be up for a popular vote, because we all know that the masses have an overwhelming tendency to do the wrong thing.

      I suppose you find it convenient to ignore the underhanded fiscal shenanigans the Mormon church engaged in up to and after Prop H8, trying to hide the amounts of money spent, then trying to hide valuable, intangible services they provided to the anti-marriage bigots who were trying to destroy GLBT families all over the state.

      My argument lacks nothing, Cece. There’s a right side and a wrong side. Those in favor of equality are right. Those who would use their votes as weaponns against an already oppressed people are wrong. It doesn’t get much clearer than that.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      @vernonvanderbilt

      Well, I do not necessarily disagree with the “leaving rights up to a vote” comment and I’m glad you clarified.

      However, it’s a pretty complex issue. Again, I ABSOLUTELY agree that LGBT should have all rights that any married hetero couple would have. And on that point, I think you will actually find the LDS church does as well. In fact, why don’t you just call them and ask?

      Now, as far as the Gay Marriage question is a whole different issue. And I can understand why LGBT individual would feel like second-class citizens being relegated to having something called a “civil union” instead of marriage. But again, I’m not arguing that point because I think it is more complex than just “you’re either with us or against us.”

      As far as your accusations of the Mormon church hiding money, I don’t know of any reputable source to affirm that. Don’t you think that would be a BIG deal if there were such data? News agencies KILL for that kind of stuff. All I know of is Fred Kruger (who is obsessed with fighting against Mormons). So if you can show me some REAL data, then I may be inclined to give you comment validation. Right now, it’s just unsubstantiated accusations against a group with which you are frustrated (albeit, VERY frustrated).

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      Salt Lake City is supposed to have the highest concentration of democrats in the state so not exactly shocking.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      @JDD: Yea that’s why they fell all over themselves supporting the Common Ground Initiative oh wait no they most certainly did not.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Cicero:

      “Again, I ABSOLUTELY agree that LGBT should have all rights that any married hetero couple would have. And on that point, I think you will actually find the LDS church does as well. In fact, why don’t you just call them and ask?”

      Because in my Universe, actions speak louder than words. Of course they’re going to say whatever they have to so they don’t look like the terrible people they are. It doesn’t change the things they’ve done and will probably continue to do for the foreseeable future.

      “But again, I’m not arguing that point because I think it is more complex than just ‘you’re either with us or against us.'”

      Except it isn’t. You either believe in treating all tax-paying citizens equally under the law, or you don’t.

      “So if you can show me some REAL data, then I may be inclined to give you comment validation.”

      http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/02/02/mormon-church-admits-unreported-prop-8-funds-as-gay-bill-dies-in-utah/

      Go there. The Mormon church has already admitted to it.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Cicero: If you actually think Mormons don’t have a problem with homosexuals – ask them to make a declaration. That should be easy to do.

      I would also like to remind you (in addition to the comments above) that it was a Mormon that tied Matthew Shepherd to a fence.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @vernonvanderbilt: Your links don’t suggest anything about the Mormons un-wronging homosexuals. They continue to believe homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant. That’s the problem. This religious lie has defined us and it must be rejected.

      Now, the Mormons may be the biggest nuts (my very own Planet, wow) in the nut collection known as Christianity, but if they want to reject the homo parts of the Bible – great. Bring it on.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      @vernonvanderbilt

      First, (and I’m not sure if you knew about this) but all parties involved in campaigning in California had until Jan 31st 2009 to report spending. The church (and many organizations both for and against 8) met that deadline. There was nothing illegal about it. I’m guessing you just didn’t know about that. Look it up on the California elections website. Heck, just call the California elections and voting staff and ask if the LDS church did anything illegal. Here is their information http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/

      The problem is that you got your information from a biased site. That’s like Ahmadinejad giving you a website that says the Holocaust didn’t happen. Go to governmental sites, you will have a much stronger argument. And to be clear, there is no evidence of the Mormon church doing ANYTHING illegal.

      Your comment about treating all taxpaying citizens equally under the law also doesn’t past muster. EVERY law discriminates against someone, and many times groups of people. I’m a single white male and do not have many of the benefits that married couples have. Where are my rights? And why should one group of citizens be privy to benefits of medicare and medicaid while I must come up with the money myself? Actually, I think you will find that we have specifically structured the tax-code to give different rights to different people in different situations. And that was intentional.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kent Parsons
      Kent Parsons

      The person who wrote this article is obviously illiterate. The LDS church does not get involved in politics. It’s members may get involved (I believe that a constitutionally guaranteed right), but The Church itself does not. Duh. So this article is nothing more than a bigoted anti-Mormon rant.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      @Brian

      haha, I would like to remind you that it was Americans that held blacks in slavery for 400 years…therefore ALL Americans must be racist. Stop with the ridiculous comments. Just because a kid HAPPENED to be Mormon who tied another kid to a fence who was gay doesn’t mean ALL Mormon’s are that way. That’s like me saying all Gays are bad because one of them killed another person. Again, intellectually lazy arguments. Apparently, you can’t even take the time to understand what Mormon’s really believe. You just reach for the most ridiculous sounding beliefs and then pass those off as the groups core doctrine.

      But it’s easier to spread intolerance and misunderstanding. Understanding one another actually takes work, and apparently that is more difficult than sticking with the websites and commentary that reinforces your already biased views. Don’t worry, we all do it. It’s just unfortunate that we don’t take more time to understand one another. I think we would all find that we have much more in common than different.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Brian: Because they have yet to “un-wrong” us, whatever that means.

      @Cicero: First, don’t put words into my mouth in order to bolster your own argument. I didn’t say they did anything illegal. Unethical, perhaps…shady, definitely. But you and I both know that the American legal system is so convoluted and illogical that anyone with enough money to pay a halfway decent lawyer can pretty much do whatever they want and have it still qualify as “legal.”

      As far as the link goes, I’ve never been to that site before. I just did a google search for “mormons prop 8 hidden money” and picked the first link that had the information I was looking for. That story was widely reported when it first broke (albeit quite briefly before the media saw something shiny and got distracted). That $200k figure was specifically non-monetary donations to the anti-marriage cause which the church tried to sweep under the rug before threats of legal action forced them to come clean.

      Did they act illegally? Maybe, maybe not. But they certainly acted underhandedly and should absolutely be considered for revocation of their tax exempt status, at least in California.

      “I’m a single white male and do not have many of the benefits that married couples have. Where are my rights?”

      Don’t be that guy. The key words in your sentence are “single” and “married.” Most of the rights in question are entirely inapplicable to single people, as they are based on the concept of the couple. You’re not being discriminated against because you’re single. If you decide to pair up with someone in the future and create a life together, then by all means you should be entitled to equal rights under the law whether you get married or not. But until marriage is no longer a requirement to equality…well, at least you have the option, right?

      “And why should one group of citizens be privy to benefits of medicare and medicaid while I must come up with the money myself?”

      I’m assuming you’re not disabled or a senior citizen? Well, then those programs weren’t designed for you. If you want to drag health care into the argument, I’m certainly not going to argue against free or low-cost health care for everyone. Don’t try to distract from the issue at hand.

      “Actually, I think you will find that we have specifically structured the tax-code to give different rights to different people in different situations. And that was intentional.”

      And yet, that still doesn’t make it right, does it? So, because everyone has a little unfairness in his or her life, we should just stop pointing it out? I don’t think so. Health care and the tax system are in their own categories as far as unfairness goes. However, they have nothing to do with anti-discrimination laws and marriage equality. There’s a big difference there.

      You’re not being told that your family is not really a family on a daily basis. You’re not being denied access to the bedside of a dying spouse. You’re not being denied custody of children you have raised for their entire lives simply because you’re not their biological parent. If your family doesn’t like the person you marry, they can’t swoop in and take over your entire estate and leave that person broke and homeless should you kick the bucket. These things happen all the time to those of us who live in states where equality is not valued as much as religion’s right to persecute. Next time you want to talk about being oppressed, it might be a good idea to wait until you’re actually oppressed.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Cicero:

      “But it’s easier to spread intolerance and misunderstanding. Understanding one another actually takes work, and apparently that is more difficult than sticking with the websites and commentary that reinforces your already biased views. Don’t worry, we all do it. It’s just unfortunate that we don’t take more time to understand one another. I think we would all find that we have much more in common than different.”

      Don’t dress it up in lace and ribbons to make it sound prettier. Say what you mean.

      What you’re actually saying is that the mean old GLBT folks should stop complaining that those poor, innocent mormons helped to push them back into the gutter of inequality. Instead, we should reach out to them and try to understand them, and let them hate us as much as they want because that’s their prerogative and we live in a free nation (as long as you’re straight).

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Cicero: The MORMON that tied Matthew Shepherd to a fence was taught BY THE MORMONS that homosexuals are wrong, sinful and deviant. They planted that idea in his head – nothing else.

      Until your Mormons take a stand on homosexuals – like rejecting those parts of the Bible, you’re just as evil as the other Christians. Like the kid that killed Matthew Shepherd – he was a BAPTIST. (Same thoughts planted in his mind).

      The Christian belief that homosexuals are wrong, sinful and deviant has defined gays and lesbians. Religion “branded” us. That is the sole reason for all the hatred and discrimination we have endured.

      So, stop bragging about Mormons – they’re still “Christians.” They still make us wrong.

      Have you ordered your Planet yet?

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      If we woke up tomorrow and there was NO RELIGION in the World. We wouldn’t invent it again. People can actually think for themselves now – what a concept.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      @vernonvanderbilt

      Well, I do have to apologize for the illegal comment. I read the article in the link you sent and must have put your comment and the fact that it says “illegal” in the article together as if you were saying that. Although, still probably better to actually get your source from something that more reputable (again, per my Holocaust comment).

      Secondly (and I thought I made this point clear), I am VERY sensitive to the whole oppressed thing. The fact that you brought this comment up after all I had said before just shows how complicated this argument is. I already told you I think the LBGT community should have all rights that married couples do. The question about whether to call it marriage or not was the only point on which I did not argue. And even there I admitted that I understood that was a little disingenuous to suggest that a “civil union” (even will all rights) was just as good as marriage. Re-read my statements and I think you will find that point quite clear.

      Oh, and as far as being oppressed, you’re right, I haven’t been. However, Mormons were the only group in America to have an extermination order levied against them. So as far as knowing what it’s like to be part of a group that has been oppressed (or persecuted as Brian does a good job of showing), I think I know that a bit.

      And by the way, I do think Mormons (and everyone in general) can do a better job at reaching out to the LGBT community and trying to understand. But don’t you think it needs to go both ways? I mean, there’s a lot of Mormons who disagreed with prop 8. Yet even they are viewed as bigots and wrong. It’s just easier to categorize an entire group rather than understand that we are all people and have different views, this is particularly true in religion where you have opinions as diverse as Harry Reid and Mitt Romney’s (both Mormon).

      And Brian, unfortunately, nothing I say or do could change your mind on Mormons. You’ve already made it up. And even if I did show you evidence to the contrary, you would pass it off as the church “changing their position to look good” or lies.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 4:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      I don’t think that the issue is that difficult to break down. The Mormons, beingh a whole different brand of christianity- having a different Holy Book etc. are distinct from the Christian religions i. e. Baptists, Evangelicals, who are opposed to homosexuality on the grownds of scriptutre or the Catholics who think they have claim to some intelectual reality: natural law as defined by Aquinas .
      The structure of Mormon myth holds central a doctrine which makes each male king of his castle, captain of his planet after death,bose over the womenfolk etc. “Marriage” is their
      hobgoblin which we would only have avoided by naming it somethng different. To many of their kids are gay, and they have tight family structures. They don’t to my knowlege condemn who we are but just marriage. My brother even knows Gay Mormons who as active, rather than receptive partners don’t think of them selves as being gay. I guess that would make his his boyfriend the “bitch” or the “woman” of the two.

      One other political aspect of that is the population, which in Utah, is I think about 40% , where as it is higher in places like Idaho , which is 60%. There are lots of them in California with big Money. Gays could never compete in that arena, there.

      The Baptists make it quite clear that people should descriminate re, jobs. and that we are sinners and chose our path.
      Mormons just don’t want Marriage. except for one man and
      a woman/variety of women

      Aug 24, 2009 at 4:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B.
      B.

      Brian wrote, “If we woke up tomorrow and there was NO RELIGION in the World. We wouldn’t invent it again.”

      Joseph Smith is a counter example to that one. :-) In the early
      1800s, nearly everyone thought his religion was a pile of
      nonsense, and look what happened. Most people still think it
      is pretty wacky, but it’s growing like weeds. Then there are
      are religions like Scientology, which is an even more recent
      development.

      The human brain has not evolved all that much in the past few
      thousand years. Whatever features of the human brain caused the
      rise of religions nearly everywhere in the world are almost certainly still there today.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 4:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rudy
      rudy

      @Cicero: “Again, I ABSOLUTELY agree that LGBT should have all rights that any married hetero couple would have. And on that point, I think you will actually find the LDS church does as well.”
      Nice try.
      The Mormon Church took part in a campaign that invalidated the marriages of gay men and women in California.
      How DARE YOU come in here and call US bigots!
      We represented the wounded party here.
      You want us to think of LDS differently?
      Sure.
      When your church has shown us THROUGH ACTION – at the very least passing job protection and civil unions in Utah with its PUBLIC SUPPORT – you will see everyone on Queerty change their tune, because WE are definitely NOT the bigots.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      The Mormon Church had a chance to support LGBT rights to hospital visitations, freedom from employment and housing discrimination yet they blew it OFF – 4 bills to guarantee LGBT rights in Utah and the legislature there which is 90% Mormon killed every single one of them in committee.

      And if you think Mormons would be ok with us having recognized relationships that weren’t called marriages well that appears to depend on whether or not your talking about Utah.
      “But spokesman Michael Otterson suggested a few days ago to a Washington Post reporter that the church’s post-election remarks were “based on civil unions in California and that no decision has been made regarding similar rights in Utah,” the paper said. “‘I don’t want to give the impression that the church is saying civil unions in all cases are OK,'” Otterson was quoted as saying, according to the Tribune.”
      http://lgbtqnews.com/gaynews/utah-gay-activists-ask-mormon-church-to-help-pass-gay-rights-bills.aspx

      Aug 24, 2009 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Cicero: I did read your statements re: marriage rights vs. marriage in name. Frankly, the world would be a lot better off if more religious folks thought similarly. The problem is that you (or anti-marriage bigots) do not have a single good reason for being so hung up on the semantics of the situation. Truth be told, I think the majority of anti-marriage bigots only use the semantic argument in a lame attempt to disguise their glaring prejudice. No one like to be called a bigot, after all…especially if they are one, it seems.

      “However, Mormons were the only group in America to have an extermination order levied against them.”

      I think the Native Americans might beg to differ with you on that, but that’s beside the point. Do you honestly expect me or anyone to swallow that kind of hogwash? Do you honestly think that because some vicious nutjob with a dab of power back in the day decided to put a bounty on the heads of a new, disruptive, and frightening cult that means you have any idea what oppression feels like? Color me skeptical at the very least.

      The fact of the matter is that, as far as issues like equality go, mormons are in lock step with the religious majority in this nation. If modern day mormons had any clue what oppression felt like, they’d think twice before trying to pay that shit forward.

      Or maybe not. Seems like everyone likes to have a smaller dog to kick around. Human nature…it’s a bitch.

      “And by the way, I do think Mormons (and everyone in general) can do a better job at reaching out to the LGBT community and trying to understand. But don’t you think it needs to go both ways?”

      Nope. Oppressors asking for understanding is like multinational corporations asking for donations: they don’t need it. Here’s what we (the LGBT community) need to understand about the mormons:

      1. They hate the fact that we exist.

      2. They have an established record of spending time and money to ensure that we eternally remain second class citizens.

      3. If not for mormon involvement and lies, Prop H8 probably wouldn’t have passed.

      If the mormon church was actually interested in some sort of common ground or reconciliation, it really wouldn’t take a whole lot to get that ball rolling.

      1. Apologize for being evil and hateful toward us.

      2. Start working to help us gain equality, rather than spouting empty words and turning their back on any chances to do something worthwhile for the GLBT community.

      They had their chance to back up their words with action when the Common Grounds intiative was in the works. They did nothing, which tells us that their spineless blather about “loving homosexuals” or whatever that garbage was, was lies.

      As far as individual mormons who disagree with the church’s stance on GLBT issues? Speaking for myself…put up or shut up. Unless they’re quitting the church, changing the church, or speaking out publicly against the church’s involvement in this heinous, un-American event, I don’t care what they have to say. Talk is easy, but it means jack to me. I want to see action. Anything less is lip service, quiet assent to the status quo.

      If you stop and think about it, mormons and jehovah’s witnesses are just about equally nutty. The big difference between them it that the JW’s make a point of not getting involved in politics. Why do you think you don’t read innumerable rants against them on LGBT websites? Maybe the mormons could take a page from their playbook.

      If you stand in the way of progress, you are the enemy. If you actively fight against progress, you are something much worse. Anyone who fights against the rights of my people to be treated like human beings deserves nothing but pain and heartache for the rest of their days. If we cannot be rid of them entirely, then I say let them suffer so much we need to change the definition.

      Sorry, does that mean I’m a bigot? I guess I am.

      I’m bigoted against bigots. There’s one to wrap your head around.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 7:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Seth R.
      Seth R.

      “I would also like to remind you (in addition to the comments above) that it was a Mormon that tied Matthew Shepherd to a fence.”

      Thanks for that.

      I’ll file that away in my “random unsupported crap you read on the internet” folder.

      It’s important to keep the issues here clear. This isn’t about gays getting equal tax benefits. It isn’t about hospital visitation rights. It isn’t about inheritance law, or medical decision-making.

      Gay couples can get all those things with civil union laws. They don’t need marriage to do it.

      As far as I’m concerned gays have no right to ritualistic government approval of their relationships. I’m no more interested in government calling their unions “marriage” than I am in an official government declaration stating that gays have souls. It’s not any of government’s business whether gays are married or not. It’s a matter of personal belief, and it ought to be kept there.

      But don’t get me wrong.

      I don’t think that Mormons have a right to government approval of their marriages either. Neither do Catholics, or Muslims, or Evangelicals, or Wiccans.

      What I’m saying is that government shouldn’t be in the marriage business to begin with.

      As a devout Mormon, I resent that I have to go down to a courthouse and ask some state judge to approve my marriage. When I married my wife, it was in a Mormon temple. It wasn’t when I went down to some crappy courthouse and got a stupid piece of paper from a bored-looking receptionist.

      What I’d like to see is young Christian, Mormon, or whatever couples suing their state governments for requiring them to get government approval of what is solely a personal and private religious matter.

      Government has no right to be handing out marriage licenses at all. I think it was a mistake for the Mormon Church to essentially concede this role to government by its participation in Proposition 8. This will come back to bite my Church.

      I’m not saying this for the sake of gays.

      I’m saying this because I realize that the same laws that protect the rights of gay people protect the rights of my fellow Mormons. And the same laws that restrict government overreach in the lives of Mormons, will also protect that same overreach in the lives of gays.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 9:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cicero
      Cicero

      @Seth R.:

      Government has no right to be handing out marriage licenses at all. I think it was a mistake for the Mormon Church to essentially concede this role to government by its participation in Proposition 8. This will come back to bite my Church.

      That is a very interesting statement. I will need to thing about it some more. My initial thought is that the fact that so many laws are related to being married (or civil-unioned) that this would not work. It’s the same reason why gay marriage will not work on a state-by-state basis. Eventually, someone will sue a state for not accepting their marriage. While I tend to prefer power delegated to the states, I think this one will eventually end-up at the federal-level.

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      It’s too bad we keep talking past each other on this one. I am not blind to the fact that anit-gay-marriage DEFINITELY falls into the “separate but equal being inherently unequal” camp. And to be clear, I think if you actually spoke to a random sample of Mormons nationwide, you would see a very different story than the one reported in the story above.

      However, I am not gay. And while I can try to understand, I will not TRULY understand how you feel. However, I CAN continue to reach out and try to understand while refining my views on the who thing.

      One thing I will NOT stand for is unsubstantiated hateful rhetoric either about the LGBT community or the LDS church. You may claim that the LDS church said “lies” but I have yet to see examples of such lies. Again, your point about them hiding money is false and unsubstantiated by any reputable source. I have nothing against the gay community. I do not agree with mistreatment of them. I realize that is hypocritical because of my stance against gay marriage (again, I’m in full support of gays having the rights associated with gay marriage). But that’s where I stand.

      Aug 24, 2009 at 11:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Seth R.
      Seth R.

      Well, we’ll never know until we try it, will we?

      Aug 24, 2009 at 11:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Cicero: Do you want examples of the lies the “Yes on H8″ folks used in their campaign, a campaign which was heavily funded and very explicitly endorsed by the lds leadership? Well, okay then.

      Go here for the short version:

      http://guydads.blogspot.com/2008/10/fears-and-lies-of-prop-8-supporters.html

      Or here for the long version:

      http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/08/30/six-big-lies-the-freedom-haters-are-spreading-about-proposition-8/

      How about the BYU news service? Is that a reputable source?

      http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/70533

      Every single statement these writers refuted was part of the anti-marriage, pro-hate campaign’s propaganda. Thousands of marriages were placed in jeopardy, and hundreds of thousands denied before they had the chance to occur, because a slim majority of the people of California decided that they didn’t care if these were lies or not. They were chomping at the bit to waste their votes on evil and bigotry, facts be damned.

      And again with the money. What part of “the lds church admitted to it” don’t you understand? You want another source for that? How about the L.A. Times, maybe?

      http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/top-officials-w.html

      And what about the blackmail campaign they engaged in before election day? Check out the video on this page to see a copy of one of their letters:

      http://www.stopthemormons.com/?p=185

      The information is out there, all over the place, from all sorts of sources, if you actually look for it. The mormon church spread lies, intimidated dissenters, and tried to hide its financial involvement in the Prop H8 debacle. All verifiable, all true. And then they wanted to whine because we were participating in boycotts against businesses that donated to their anti-marriage, anti-family, pro-hate agenda. Cry me a river, Marcia.

      Like I said, the lds church has a lot to answer for, a lot more to apologize for, and a hell of a lot to undo before it or any of its members warrant any sort of “understanding” from the LGBT community. Church members donated, according to various reports, between 40 and 70% of Prop H8’s funding. They devoted countless hours of work to their wicked and despicable cause. They knowingly lied about the consequences of equal marriage. They engaged in malicious campaigns to defame and malign supporters of marriage equality. And when the shit hit the fan, they tried to steal the mantle of victimhood from the very people they victimized, criticizing us for having the nerve to be angry about their evil and underhanded tactics.

      Whether a mormon supports marriage equality or not is of little importance to me. If they remain members of that church, they are giving their tacit approval of the heinous acts perpetrated in the weeks and months leading up to election day, 2008.

      “I have nothing against the gay community. I do not agree with mistreatment of them.”

      That last word should have been “you.” On this site, you’re talking to members of the GLBT community. Depersonalizing may be more comfortable for you, but it sounds separatist and more than a little patronizing. I suspect you have the potential to be better than that.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 12:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Buffy
      Buffy

      @Balance:

      Praytell, how are gay people sticking their noses in the business of others? Are they waging multi-state, multi-million dollar campaigns to eradicate Mormons’ right to wear their sacred underpants and eat green jello concoctions? Are they working to deny Catholics the right to cannibalize Jesus? Have they advocated for legislation banning marriage between people of different religions? Are they trying to tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies?

      The only thing LGBT people want is to enjoy the same rights you take for granted, and for busybody bigots to leave them the hell alone. As to the Mormons and their claims that they love gay people and bear no ill will toward them, you need only watch this to see proof to the contrary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U49IKqe6NI

      Aug 25, 2009 at 12:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Buffy
      Buffy

      @Seth R.:

      Gee, Seth, you spend an awful lot of time trolling gay and atheist blogs. Aren’t you afraid you’ll catch something?

      Aug 25, 2009 at 12:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Seth R.
      Seth R.

      Well Buffy, I’m already a Democrat, so I guess it’s possible.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 12:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LdChino
      LdChino

      Even though they miffed Christine Johnson’s name, Utah’s FOX13 (once again) delivers some admittedly fair and balanced local coverage of this story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18_BWqrmNhU

      And, yes, that was a shameless plug for the YouTube clip I just uploaded: “Christine Johnson Continues to Rock: Fighting Transgender Workplace Discrimination in Utah”

      Seth R., you’re admittedly one of the more reasonable Mormons frequenting the LGBT blogosphere, but at some point, reality’s got to kick in: Check out the recent World Congress of Families V held in Amsterdam. Here’s a link to the talks they’ve put on line:

      Dew, Sheri L. (USA): CEO Deseret Book, “The Power of Virtue”

      Nelson, Russell M., M.D., Ph.D. (USA): Member, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “The Family: The Hope for the Future of Nations”

      Nelson, Wendy Watson, Ph.D. (USA): Chair of Brigham Young University’s Women’s Conference, 1989 and 2000, “Not Even Once!”

      Source: http://www.worldcongress.org/WCF5/wcf5.spkrs.htm

      My fave gem from Sheri Dew’s talk was: “But since when has the opinion of the masses been a reliable barometer of what is in humanity’s best interests?”

      So much for ballot initiatives, eh?

      But what Sheri, Russell and Wendy brought to the conference was milk. It’s left to Gilbert, AZ based Mormon winger outfits like UFI to deliver the meat:

      http://unitedfamilies.org/

      After starring in the NOM auditions for “Gathering Storm” … Carol Soelberg and her LDS crew were glad to get away to Amsterdam for a little R&R and FUD, even if, as UFI noted, their host country, the Netherlands “is a typical anti-family country” …

      Oh my.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 9:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Seth R.
      Seth R.

      Reality has kicked in Chino.

      I’m aware that my position is not currently winning the day among LDS leadership – or even necessarily among most Mormons.

      That’s why I need to stay in the religion. If change comes within the LDS Church, it will come from people whose loyalty to this religion is established and well-known. I don’t think it will come from leaving to make a point.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 11:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      Hey, Queerty…how about posting my comment that’s been “awaiting moderation” since last night already? I’m not a fucking spammer.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 11:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      And thank you. That’s much better.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 11:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Julian Edward Domain
      Julian Edward Domain

      @JDD: You haven’t had the experience if christian “love” via the mormon church.

      Aug 25, 2009 at 11:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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