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Why Legislators Think You’re Wasting Your Time Marching on Washington

natleqmarch

While Cleve Jones & Co. will be able to rally thousands of supporters to Washington D.C. for the National Equality March in October, it doesn’t mean anyone in Congress is actually going to hear anyone’s demands for equality. And not just because all of Washington will have left the city for vacation! And not just because organizers won’t actually be demanding anything specific from legislators! But because, well, they’re too freakin’ busy.

durbin1

The U.S. Senate has other things to do besides deal with ENDA, DADT, and DOMA, you see. Like health care! The economy! Frat guys in Afghanistan! “We have a very heavy, busy agenda and a few months left to do it,” says Illinois’ Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin, the majority whip. “So it may not be now, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be soon.”

Soon? Is that “soon” like the Obama administration’s definition of “soon”? Because to them, that word means “sometime in the next three years.”

Not helping things is the death of Sen. Ted Kennedy, a champion of equality legislation — and a man other people actually freakin’ listen to. And while it’s nice to hear folks like New York’s Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand have our backs about repealing DADT, even she was leaning on Kennedy’s office to actually make progress. Plus, she’s a JV senator in a room full of old-timers; it’s hard for newcomers to get a voice. Meanwhile, in the House, Massachusetts’ Rep. Barney Frank has hope for ENDA, but even passage by Congress doesn’t mean the Senate will get around to it — despite a sure-fire signage by Barack Obama.

None of this, however, is a reason not to have a march on Washington. Some will argue it’s all the more reason to do it. But lest anyone get their expectations up that finally, after installing a fierce advocate in the White House and giving both houses of Congress to the Democrats (many of whom made similar commitments to LGBTs), we’ll see some movement on our behalf, well, get realistic.

By:           editor editor
On:           Sep 3, 2009
Tagged: , , , , , , , , , , , ,
  • 105 Comments
    • Lloyd Baltazar
      Lloyd Baltazar

      Ok, this is a very convincing article—-a much argued one compared to the one that was just bashing the National Equality March Queerty posted last week.

      However, I still believe it is IMPORTANT to make a presence in Washington on October whether those nutjobs at the Capitol will be present or not. It’s a show of courage and conviction. Something all Gays and Lesbians should promote at this point of the battle.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 12:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lexxvs
      Lexxvs

      So, to know, there’ll be always -and I mean, always- something more important that… lets say, “fags”. Yeap, that’s almost implicit, isn’t it?
      As long as we don’t move to make our voices heard, they won’t care. Just as simple as that.
      Delay. What delay? It’s been decades. Never is a good moment. So always it’s a good moment, whether they like it or not.
      It’s like waiting to get up on a train in India. You say “be polite and let others get on first”, so you will be stranded for ever at the station. If you wanna go somewhere, you have to struggle your way in, no matter how crowded or how difficult. You have the same right. As important as anyone else’s. Stop feeling that your life is less valuable. Be like a fly that they can never crush, bug them until they listen. That’s why it’s important to march.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 12:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      Let’s review

      Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin says the Senate is swamped…little appetite … when election forecasters are signaling a tough 2010 election cycle for the party.”

      TRANSLATION: not this year…not NEXT year…not……….!!!!

      “…[Democrat Jim] Webb wouldn’t say what his views are on the policy … [Democrat Blanche] Lincoln [up for reelection] declined to give her views on don’t ask, don’t tell…………..need to have the uniform MILITARY speak about this issue …. hearing what THE PENTAGON has to say …. has to be in consultation with the PENTAGON ….need to be DRIVEN BY THE MILITARY …. DEFERRING TO THE MILITARY ….the Pentagon is conducting an internal REVIEW of the policy…. take into consideration the arguments, FEELINGS [of the MILITARY]….best MILITARY advice based on facts and NOT EMOTION….”

      TRANSLATION: fuck the fags & “Justice” and “Equality”….whatever they’re saying publicly the top dinosaurs in the Pentagon’s Jurassic Park are fighting repeal fang and claw!!!

      “…ABSENT A BIG PUSH FROM THE PENTAGON AND OBAMA [nothing is going to happen]“

      TRANSLATION: we have to put back the fear of losing gay money so deeply that THIS time we get something other than a White House Tea Party for the A-Gays!!!!

      President Obama, appears to have absorbed an unfortunate—and incorrect—lesson from the Democrats’ alienation from the military since Vietnam: that to earn the trust of the brass, the president must plead with the uniforms for a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Yes, Dems must win over the military; no, that is not done by having the president ask permission to act like Commander-in-Chief; it’s done by showing the world that the president knows how to lead. Sometimes moral and political leadership really are one and the same. Ending the needless firing of gay troops is one of those times.” – Nathaniel Frank, Palm Center DADT expert, author of Unfriendly Fire.

      [img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2629328580_32008732ec_o.jpg[/img]

      Sep 3, 2009 at 12:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Low Baller
      Low Baller

      News Tip to Queerty: You can gauge anticipated turnout by the number of porta-johns ordered for the event. I’m serious. Call up any DC-area porta-john rental outfit, tell them the number of units the March has ordered (from the March budget posted by Petrelis), and they can tell you off the top of their heads how many attendees are anticipated.

      And the low number will be newsworthy (to Queerty; to the rest of Washington on the day of the march, not so much).

      Sep 3, 2009 at 12:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      If someone really believes that ‘gay rights’ superceeds heath care, the worst economy for many years, and that ignorant Afanastan, they had better get a seat on the good ship lolly pop.
      I didn’t hear many gays insisting that they wanted these things when their was plety of time whwen Bush was fucking around chasing paper tigers.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 12:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @M Shane:

      FUCK YOU, M SHAME, and your illiterate Obambotic excuses and distortions! If you are in fact gay and were the gay community a country you would be guilty of treason because you ALWAYS, REPEATEDLY defend Obama’s BETRAYALS of his promises to us.

      It’s not stopping discharges OR health care! Remember your GOD OBAMA is the Messiah of Multitaskers.

      Even IF it were: the Repugs and Demo cowards could crawl on their bellies tomorrow and hand him health care on a giant silver platter with a life-size ice sculpture of him and he STILL would do NOTHING about DADT because the Pentagon tail is wagging the dog…and I don’t mean Bo.

      For those who haven’t sold their souls to the Obama Wan Kenobi Personality Cult: contact THE WHITE HOUSE NOW and DEMAND that Obama use his ENTIRELY LEGAL authority to freeze discharges NOW based on national security needs WHILE HE STILL HAS AN OUNCE OF [sinking fast] POLITICAL CAPITAL LEFT until Congess gets off their asses in, what 2011…2013…2015….

      http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
      Comments: 202-456-1111
      Switchboard: 202-456-1414
      FAX: 202-456-2461

      Sep 3, 2009 at 1:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      The Senator is lying. On average the Senate works from Tuesday through Thursday. All they do is craft bills, debate and vote. They could push a bill through committee, debate and vote on it in a few days. So here is an idea. If Durbin and his ilk can’t handle all the important business of the country, then we’ll elect other people with better work ethics who can.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @M Shane:

      Shane. You sad, sad fuck.

      By skirting this issue all around they are making it a bigger and scarier thing. The President and Congress are very much capable of handling multiple issues at once. They currently have the momentum and the ability to end DADT.

      If they can’t handle this matter while working on health care then they are worthless on all issues.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark Snyder
      Mark Snyder
      Sep 3, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark Snyder
      Mark Snyder

      Click my name to watch my video “5 concerns about the national equality march.”

      Sep 3, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rick
      Rick

      SOCIALISM!!

      Sep 3, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Popsnap
      Popsnap

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com:

      Okay! Let’s not vote for the Democrats and vote for a bunch of Republicans. Maybe, if we get enough in office, they may even make us illegal someday.

      Don’t get me wrong, I am not defending any Democratic officials, but c’mon people the Dems have been lukewarm to somewhat friendly to us since the 80’s, while the Republicans have espouted thinly-veild wishes for a mass genocide of all o’dem sinnin’ home-a-seckshuls.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 3:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • reluctantcommenter
      reluctantcommenter

      @M Shane:

      i’m so tired of this argument. in addition to his own assassination, JFK was dealing with the bay of pigs invasion, the cuban missile crisis, military operations in vietnam, communism in germany and latin america, the cold war, the nuclear test ban treaty, the beginnings of the moon mission, a stagnant economy, rising unemployment, and numerous other mundane issues. he was the youngest president in history at that time, and the first catholic, yet despite all this, he did the necessary work to get enough votes for the civil right’s act of ’64. and despite JFK’s assassination, LBJ still made sure it passed. AND, johnson had the balls to do it despite the lasting faction it caused with traditionally southern democrats. johnson then went on to sign the voting right’s act in ’65 AND pass medicare among other things.

      in light of all that, you want me to believe that obama can’t focus a little on pushing ENDA, hate crimes and DADT? and the repeal of DADT is supported by even the most conservative portions of American society.

      and why do you even mention bush? he tried to BAN equal marriage in the federal constitution. it’s beyond obvious that nothing was going to be accomplished under his presidency.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Yuki
      Yuki

      I actually agree with M Shane. The health of the majority is a little more important than gay rights.

      That being said… I firmly believe that the government should be able to multitask and take care of BOTH things at the same time, for sure.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 3:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com:

      Michael, do you know how embarrassing this is to me? This is MY Senator.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Swimmer - Chicago
      Swimmer - Chicago

      Excuse me Mr. Durbin – this is a matter of National Security – we are at war and all soldiers – gay or straight – are needed. I hope you can find the time to re-arrange your busy schedule to worry about the war and the people serving. DADT is an outrage – encouraging people to lie to serve and die for their country – shame on you! Maybe the next time your up for re-election I will be to busy to vote. Or next year – 2010 – when the rightwing nutjobs will be out in full-force – I will be too busy to go vote. If I wanted more Bush, I would have voted for McCain/Palin.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      I think this has less do do with Durbin, per se, and more to do with the Mormon Harry Reid, who has been consistently putting up all sorts of roadblocks to gay legislation that is in Senate committees or has been passed by the House.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 4:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @Chitown Kev:

      I hear you, Kev. What angers me is that to all intents and purposes they have surrendered to the generals without so much as a real public discussion let alone fight.

      At least in 1993 one could outline a series of causes and effects that led to policy becoming law, but my calendar says “2009.”

      Sep 3, 2009 at 5:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      During the late, unlamented Bush years Democrats promised to end the war, give us good health care and pass the GLBT agenda. Then they blamed their failure on Bush. Now they’ve changed their tune. “Cry me a river” is out and the Who’s “It’s your turn, step up and take it… If you’ve got the guts…” is in. Congress insists that Obama push for our agenda and he wants’ them to bite the bullet. And in the meantime the Democrats bus just keeps rollin along.

      Democrats have huge majorities in the House and Senate. They won, with a little over a third of the eligible vote, the White House. (The Republicans got a little under a third and the smart people, the ones who gave both parties the finger, got about a third.) The problem is they’re using their victories to advance themselves by advancing the agendas of the looter rich, predatory lenders and the military industrial complex.

      They could have dealt with consumer debt caused by predatory lenders by forgiving the debt of the 10 million who’ve lost their jobs in the last year and cutting out all interest payments and stabilizing capital debt payments for everyone making less than 75,000.00 a year.

      Instead they bailed out the lenders, guaranteeing their profits come what may. At the same time Obama is union busting, demanding that unions make concession to increase profits.

      They could institute a socialized medical system but they won’t. They and the white house are doing exactly what HMOs, Big Pharma and insurance industry giants like AIG pay them to do; sell us down the river to insure profits.

      They could have repealed Clinton’s DADT and DOMA, but they haven’t and probably won’t. Both parties and the White House are occupied by bigots or those who cater to them.

      They could have ended the Clinton-Bush war but they haven’t and they won’t. They are not concerned with how many GIs die and they display an ugly racist contempt for the lives of civilians from Palestine to Pakistan. Their real concern is the profits of oil companies and military industrial companies like Blackwater (now Xe), Haliburton and US oil companies.

      Democrats are indeed very busy as a nest of vipers screwing working people and GI’s but that’s not the reason they’re blocking our agenda. The reason is that they’re a mirror image of the Republicans on LGBT issues: with one or two exceptions they’re bigots’ themselves or they pander to bigots.

      That includes Obama, Reid, Durban, Pelosi, Frank, who gutted ENDA and all but one or two others. [img]http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1120/1019213010417vy9.jpg[/img]

      Sep 3, 2009 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      There will NEVER be a “political” solution to LGBT Equality. We keep seeking “approval” from politicians and their “religious beliefs” won’t allow them to do that. We do NOTHING about those “beliefs.”

      Religion made us “wrong.” Until we understand that AND do something about it – we have NO chance at Equality. We’re still too “wrong.”

      We need to focus on the beliefs – the believers are helpless until we do that.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      Why are we still talking about this stupid March? It’s a non-starter. They will be lucky to get 10,000 people and that would be very embarrassing.

      We want a refund Cleve. Now.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian:

      Well. The solution, by its’ very nature, is political. When the price is deemed to be too much to bear, that’s when it will happen. (LBJ was faced with burnt cities in the 1960’s)

      That’s why the gayTM must stay closed and the Uncle Tom fags must be called out.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 6:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chitown Kev: “Well. The solution, by its’ very nature, is political. When the price is deemed to be too much to bear, that’s when it will happen. (LBJ was faced with burnt cities in the 1960’s)”

      Are you crazy? Gay riots? Gay civil disobedience? Gay show of strength? Heh. Never. We can’t even get 10,000 people to March on Washington, which is a bad idea in the first place, now compounded by the fact that it will be a very small “crowd.”

      Come on, you know better than that. 70% of Americans believe homosexuals are “wrong.” What do you expect politicians to do? They are armed with that information AND they also have those “religious” beliefs.

      The Solution must be a “popular” solution – one where people change their beliefs about us. As long as we are “wrong,” we’re not getting anything, especially equality. The “majority” is convinced we are wrong, sinful and deviant. Change that.

      Oh, and please don’t burn Boston.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 7:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @Brian: @Brian:

      “Are you crazy? Gay riots? Gay civil disobedience? Gay show of strength? Heh. Never.”

      It’s happened before…

      The “political” solutions and what you term the “popular” solutions are not mutually exclusive. Both are needed.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      I love the comments that health care is more important than gay rights, are you gay or Christian? As far as health care is concerned, Obama has already caved in to the drug companies and insurance companies so…..what’s your point? Maybe the 18 plus million for his election campaign in 2008 from the drug and insurance companies had something to do with it? I know it was ALL $5 donations right?

      Maybe NOW is the time to start pushing HILLARY for 2012, otherwise we will have President Sarah Palin or worse.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 7:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      Didn’t I tell you guys that we in the gay community are the politically useful pity class? The Democrats don’t like us. Rather, they pity us. The only reason they pander to us at election time is because they need our votes.

      Come the next election, I won’t be voting for any Democrat.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      Someone please stop this March. This is going to be so ineffective. Has the LGBT activist community suddenly gone mad?

      Sep 3, 2009 at 8:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Kropotkin:

      Someone please stop this March.

      This isn’t Russia or Poland, you know? And you will not be imprisoned or flayed to within an inch of our life if you do or don’t march. If LGBT people want to go to Washington DC to protest, what’s your fucking problem with it?

      You anti-march protesters sound like the shills the insurance and drug companies paid for and placed in all the town hall meetings around the country to to disrupt the national health bill. Who’s paying you to protest and disrupt the march, I wonder?

      If you don’t want to march, then STFD and STFU for Christ’s sakes and stop acting like someone is shoving a broom up your ass to do so. You sound worse than the Christers who get all bent out of shape thinking about what gays do in bed.

      Anything further you’d like to bitch about?

      Jeez!

      Sep 3, 2009 at 9:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @Brian:

      It wouldn’t take 10,000 to conduct enough nonviolent civil disobedience to force the government to act. Blacks did it with a few hundred at a time, sometimes many less—it was the constancy and unpredictability of the actions that wore the government down. ACT UP did it with, at most, a couple thousand at a time, usually far, far less. It only takes a dozen people to stop traffic; a dozen more to replace them when they’re carted off; ad infinitum. DC streets are hell on the best days.

      Look at what happened when just a few big gay donors boycotted the DNC fundraiser in early June and gay blogs were throbbing with the idea of everyone doing it…a White House “Stonewall” celebration suddenly was announced which, funny thing, no one had heard about a week before. PROOF it was a last minute attempt to quiet the restless People of Lavender: it was scheduled for the day AFTER the actual Stonewall anniversary. Translation: “We thought just that lame ass Pride proclomation would be enough, but now we already booked every minute of POTUS’ time before the 29th. Happy Belated Stonewall 40!”

      THEN, miracle of miracles, on June 30th, Secretary of Defense Gates who just four months before had declared they were too busy to even TALK about DADT, suddenly announces they are looking feverishly for a way to make discharges more “humane.”

      Both gimmicks worked, the A-Gays stopped yelling, nothing has changed, and, funny thing, Gates STILL hasn’t found that way to be more humane even tho his options in DADT law are deep and wide.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Markie-Mark
      Markie-Mark

      Why doesn’t anyone remember that Obama and Hillary were both AGAINST gay marriage. What more does it take for you to get that you have NO self respect. Please stop voting for these people. The Green Party has been in favor of gay marriage for over 15 years http://www.gp.org Have some self respect and vote for someone who believes that you are good enough to get married and have benefits. And the march on DC is a waste of time and energy. The democrats/republicans have no plans on giving us anything.

      Sep 3, 2009 at 10:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      Mike #8, Bill Perdue and many others are correct about the prez. Not only do Obama and his minions use the job and multi-tasking as an excuse but like with the Public Option of the health care reform-they don’t even do a good job of any tasks! I voted for Obama in the primary and election and am very disappointed. With health care reform all he’s done is kowtow to the Rethugs, insurance companies and big pharma-in closed-door meetings! He’s as bad as Dubya!

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com: Civil disobedience has worked very well at all the town hall meetings on health care with only a few at each meeting creating a big spectacle. I just do not get why so many people are against this march.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 7:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      - A march on Washington is NOT civil disobedience. It is an orderly, oft-repeated gathering done countless times per year in DC. There are three other events on the Mall during this proposed march. The DC police have permit forms, march route suggestions. This is rote stuff, not exactly something we should be investing dreams of change and action into.
      – Town Hall Meetings on Health Care. Glad you brought that up, InExile. And how many warm up march detours to DC did those folks need before pressing their case right in their hometown? I cannot believe you have observed the health care debate and actually thought “confronting representatives in their home turf worked, so…let’s go to DC first and wave signs in front of an empty US Capitol.”

      Sep 4, 2009 at 10:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      I don’t understand why David Mixner hasn’t pulled the plug on this bad-idea-done-badly.

      I hope you’re felling well enough to stop this thing David.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Joanaroo:

      With health care reform all he’s done is kowtow to the Rethugs, insurance companies and big pharma-in closed-door meetings! He’s as bad as Dubya!

      Sad, this is what happens when it is insurance companies and big pharma whose money put him in office.

      All the voters wind-up with, is a stuffed-shirt!

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @InExile:

      I just do not get why so many people are against this march.

      Because there are apparently just as many paid shills that are against the march, as there are in the town hall meetings on health care.

      Of course they don’t want us to go to Washington, DC. Someone might take notice, and that is the last thing the naysayers want.

      They just want LGBT to STFD and STFU and not make any waves so the status quo can remain. Any LGBT person who really cares about him/herself, and his/her civil-rights, would not be protesting so loudly and derisively against our efforts to obtain them.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Brian:

      I hope you’re felling well enough to stop this thing David.

      Why this fierce, driving, compulsive need to stop the march, Brian?

      If you are not going to participate, and you are convinced that the march will be to no avail, then what possible difference could it make to you?

      Are you against freedom of speech and the right of the people to protest and express their discontent with their government?

      Sure sounds like it to me.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Popsnap: The only reason Democrats are more favorable towards us is that they are LESS RELIGIOUS.

      The less religious someone is, the more supportive they are of Equality. You’re a young guy – look at the history of the LGBT Movement. You will notice we have NEVER done anything about “religion” branding us a wrong, sinful and deviant. Today, +70% of Americans still “believe” we are WRONG. Nobody in the LGBT Community has had the courage to challenge those beliefs. Until we do that, we will NEVER have equality.

      We can’t be EQUAL, as long as we’re WRONG.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @schlukitz: “If you are not going to participate, and you are convinced that the march will be to no avail, then what possible difference could it make to you?”

      Math. The LGBT community need to use it resources in a way that (at least) has the possibility of progress. It is a waste of money to travel to Washington D.C., to “walk as a group.”

      Even Obama said “change will only come from your communities, not Washington D.C.”

      Plus, I don’t see any “political solution,” because the majority of people hate us (religion did that). We’ve wasted millions during the last 40 years trying to elect gay-friendly politicians , with NO SUCCESS. HRC has wasted hundreds of millions “lobbying” politicians for approval of LGBT, with NO SUCCESS.

      A “bunch of homosexuals” in Washington D.C. happens every weekend. Nobody cares. The March for Equality can only make a difference if millions of LGBT people went there and said “enough is enough.” Last I heard this “show of strength” may have only 20,000 participants (including all Cleve’s Nephews and Nieces). That lack of interest (which may just be thoughtful people seeing it as folly) makes us look weak.

      So, however good the “intent” of organizers, it has backfired. It is now embarrassing and counterproductive.

      There are much smarter things to do, especially when we recognize that we need to do is change minds. That is best done one-on-one, in our neighborhoods, town and cities.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      “Nobody in the LGBT Community has had the courage to challenge those beliefs.”

      Not so.

      In nearly every major faith and denomination in the United States, there are large, active, and increasingly effective LGBT groups. Go to any national assembly or conference of most major denomination, and you will see them, their booths, their organizing, their increasing appeal to straight allies, and their increasing effectiveness. They have been toiling in the fields, without much help from the rest of us, and realizing results. This blog covered the recent vote victory within the Lutheran denomination, after years of hard work by LGBT Lutherans and their (increasing) allies.

      The problem is that too many major orgs have not adequately supported these efforts, and too many LGBT Americans have a knee-jerk antipathy towards the existence of religion, and religious LGBT persons. If religion is not your thing, fine by you, but let’s not ignore the work and real results that LGBT persons and their allies are realizing from within these communities. And let’s also acknowledge the very positive effect of having pro-gay pastors, rabbis and others at our side in key fights.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @Brian: @Brian: (((There are much smarter things to do, especially when we recognize that we need to do is change minds. That is best done one-on-one, in our neighborhoods, town and cities.)))

      To change everyone’s mind that hates us will take 10 years, do you really want to wait that long? CHANGE MUST COME FROM WASHINGTON. Some issues can change locally but not the 1,100 Federal Rights.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 12:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      Obviously we need change from Congress, but also from state legislatures. Vis Maine. And inasmuch as HOW we get to those Members of Congress: it has yet to be explained by a single march proponent or organizer how, tangibly, this march will move the needle in Congress. Furthermore, the question has been completely dodged by march supporters and organizers why this march is necessary to, as they promise, subsequently build Congress-targeted efforts in every congressional district, when health care opponents have made stunning political ground without once setting foot on the Mall in DC. The health care shouters are deplorable, but their strategic overseers are smart: do something surprising, catch the attention of your Rep. The march fails on these two most basic strategic and tactical needs.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 12:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      @Joel: As was fairly exhaustively discussed in those same Lutheran blog threads – it’s a real stretch to call that vote a victory. Nothing has happened to change the vile definition of homosexuality that religion has burdened us with. They let us in the church, but they haven’t boldly and clearly rejected that Christian idea of homos as sinful and wrong.

      And that only continues because we congratulate the Lutherans and their progressive friends without holding them accountable. They hand us token privileges without changing anything substantial, yet we call them moral leaders.

      It’s like we’re in an abusive relationship. Maybe we’re thinking about screaming, fighting, or even leaving the SOB. But then he brings us flowers and says “You look real pretty today.” That’s nice, but we still need to take the kids and head to our mother’s house. Either pressure him to come around and do the right thing – all the way – and really reform. Or we wait around for some guy to come around who will actually treat us with the full dignity that we deserve. But you don’t reward the asshole for some stupid flowers.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 12:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      @Chance: Same goes for politicians. Political party doesn’t matter. It’s all just different sizes of bouquets.

      I’m looking at you, Obama.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 12:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Joel: You are only focused on the “believers” and not the “beliefs.” The truth is, if we want “equality,” we can’t be “wrong” anymore. To that end, a March on the Vatican would make much more sense than a parade in Washington DC.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      Chance: I agree, of course, that a major denomination should “treat us with the full dignity that we deserve.”

      That’s exactly what LGBT activists are doing within denominations. They are making progress, year by year, assembly by assembly, vote by vote.

      In supporting and encouraging our LGBT brothers and sisters doing that work, it’s shameful you would equate such appreciation with a blanket “reward the asshole for some stupid flowers,” as you say, for the entire denomination. I applaud the progress of our brothers and sisters, not the full current standing position of the denomination.

      If you insist on remaining in your anti-religious comfort zone by denying that progress, or demanding that all LGBT Americans forsake religion, quit while they are making progress, then your pragmatism and political maturity are on full display.

      Have fun in DC.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @InExile: “To change everyone’s mind that hates us will take 10 years, do you really want to wait that long? CHANGE MUST COME FROM WASHINGTON. Some issues can change locally but not the 1,100 Federal Rights.”

      The LGBT community has never rejected the idea that we are wrong. It is a “religious” belief and we have done NOTHING about it. I don’t know if it takes 10 years to right-that-wrong, but unless we do it, we will never have equality.

      Changing minds is VERY local – one-on-one. The “elected” minds in Washington are not going to change until we change America’s minds. +70% of Americans BELIEVE we are wrong, sinful and deviant. There are +300 million minds in America and more than 200 million of them make us wrong. That’s our challenge.

      If LGBT (and friends) are about 10%, then we have an army of 30 million people. If each of us changed 9 minds we would end the wrong and actually be “equal.” Find 9 minds that think we’re “wrong,” and get to work – enlighten them. Ask them to put “equality before religion.” Good people will.

      Of course, we won’t persuade everyone, but we can persuade a majority. That will be done locally and personally.

      The March On Washington doesn’t do any of that. In fact, nobody knows WHAT it does do. It just looks like an embarrassment now.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Joel: You don’t get it Joel. In 2000 years ONLY 1% of the Churches in the US are even “gay-friendly,” and that is NOT the same as “ending the wrong of being a homosexual.” Maybe it’s like some “flowers” or other token “acceptance,” but it’s an exaggeration to call it either significant or progress.

      ALL religious denominations still make homosexuality wrong. Allowing LGBT to attend or even be members of the clergy doesn’t change the harm that has been done for 2,000 years. Find a Christian organization that DOESN’T make homosexuality WRONG. That would be progress.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 1:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      @Joel: Be offended by my analogy if you want, but I think your frustration is misguided. I’m offended that votes like the ELCA’s are considered significant progress.

      I’m glad they’re doing it (it’s nice for people who are in the club and want to preach, or want to have a sanctified union), but I don’t respect them for it. Their actions constitute the absolute minimum of the right thing to do. Religion has defined us negatively. A truly courageous, moral church would feel the weight of their responsibility to define us positively. And if they come at me with anything less – flowers, chocolates, what have you – then no, I’m not going to fall on my knees and say thank you thank you thank you. I’m going to hold their feet to the flames and ask if that’s really all they’ve got.

      In the immortal words of Shania Twain… That don’t impressah me much.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 1:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      You’re both purposefully ignoring what I stated. LGBTers are making great progress, even if the denominations are not yet where they should be. Your solution appears to be to ignore their efforts within the denominations unless and until complete victory is achieved, which you suggest no denomination will ever do anyway, so it’s all bull shizzle.

      Politically immature and pragmatically challenged, both of you, flat out.

      Go rail against baseball while you’re at it. I, for one, appreciate the value of having a pro-gay Rabbi or Pastor at our side. It has impact, even if it only leaves you, personally, rather peevish.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Brian: Your ‘solution’ could lead to a final solution. The utter stupidity of giving up the fight and instead trying to organize and effort to change the hearts and minds of one bigot at time is beyond naive and absurd. It’s suicidal. It’s an idiotic and lazy way of abstaining from the real world political struggle against the cults and their Democrat and Republican backers.

      I’m not talking about the politics of lobbying bigots like the Bushes, the Clintons and Obama, which is an extension of your dangerously foolish approach, but the politics of mass action to compel them to give us equality.

      People should come out and should adopt a fierce attitude towards bigots, especially on the job. But appealing to cult bigots is like appealing to the goodwill of the KKK or Nazis. Many people remain unaware of the dangerous levels of violence these bigots are capable of until it’s too late. They sometimes pay a terrible price for their ignorance, as the events in Europe from 1933 to 1945 convincingly demonstrate.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      “mass action to compel them to give us equality”

      And the march resembles that how, precisely? Dare you to answer without bleating about me being some tool of the establishment.

      Tell you what, meh, nevermind. This entire march discussion has withered to some familiar names among us talking to one another. No real growth in the audience.

      That’s rather telling for the march.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daniel
      Daniel

      I thought the march was a bad idea but I’ve changed my mind. It is an opportunity for people who have never been to DC to gather at a pro-equality event, and more importantly it’s an opportunity for grassroots organizers to gather with the national groups to help emphasize the importance of working together. None of the national groups has the budget to travel to all the places where advocates are coming from, so having the advocates go to DC to get some much needed training (along with some inspirational and solidarity) can do much for grassroots organizers out in the field where the important work is done. While seasoned advocates may or may not attend, providing the opportunity for those who do want to go, regardless of past involvement, is a smart idea. It reminds organizers across the country that we are all in this together and that working together and getting some training (how to deal with media, how to campaign door-to-door, how to navigate political corridors, and much more) that will prove invaluable to efforts across the nation as well as at the national level. Will it be perfect? No, no event of any kind ever is. Is it an opportunity to help motivate and inspire people who otherwise would be apathetic? It certainly is. Hopefully it will also inspire more LGBT and Allied people to run for office at the local level when they get back home. This isn’t a “parade” event. It is an event to inspire average, ordinary LGBT and Allied advocates. We’ve made a lot of progress, had some setbacks, and we are not giving up as a social justice movement. So whether you go or not, we have work to do, we can do it when we work together, and let us all roll up our sleeves and get to it regardless of where we are. We all know there is more each and every one of us can do to educate people around us to be human rights advocates, too.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @Bill Perdue: You are right Bill, if we do not stop them now, who knows what President Palin may do to us once elected in 2012. There is no way to see what the future holds or which radical nuts will get elected next. We have the best chance of gaining rights now that we have ever had. We should have started civil disobedience back in May when it became clear Obama was not planning to honor his promises. Easter egg rolls and cocktail parties were not on his list of promises.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Brian:

      There are much smarter things to do, especially when we recognize that we need to do is change minds. That is best done one-on-one, in our neighborhoods, town and cities.

      If you truly believe that, then you must also believe that the Civil Rights Act of 1964, mandated by Washington, DC, was completely unnecessary and people would have changed their minds and hearts, one-by-one, in our neighborhoods, town and cities all by their lonesome.

      What year do you think this might have occurred in, Brian? And why should it have been necessary for the black community to wait around for another 10, 20, 50 years or more for that to happen…it it ever would have happened at all?

      What people like you keep constantly overlooking, is the glaring fact that equality should not even be an issue that can be voted on. My civil-rights and that of my fellow brothers and sisters should not be up to anyone’s nice, fuzzy feelings to become the law of the land.

      Blacks would still be waiting for their civil-rights if Congress had not acted when it did in 1964.

      As the old expression goes “You go to your church…and I’ll go to mine”, or put yet another way “To each his own”.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      “We should have started civil disobedience back in May”

      And well after this march, any one of us will still be entitled to ask: when do you plan to start?

      Equating a rote march on Washington with “civil disobedience” is nonsense.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Joel: You’re not fit to be a tool of the establishment. Even they have standards although we’d be hard pressed defining them if we examined the Clintons and the Bushes.

      What you are, Joel, is a fool and a troll. You oppose the MoW because you oppose full equality. It’s really as simple as that.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      “You oppose the MoW because you oppose full equality.”

      You sir are an idiot. I risked my job to come out, created several gay activist projects, and gave time and other resources to more (and other progressive causes as well). I just happen to believe this march won’t produce tangible political output.

      But if a Revolutionary Guard trial is what you’re after, with people screaming “enemy of the people,” then nothing will bring you near the field of reason.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Joel: If you did all that, like so many of us, why are you betraying it?

      And lose the water works, you’re not worth a trial.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Leona Trotsky
      Leona Trotsky

      Well well well if it isn’t Bill Perdue calling someone a fool. When Billy Perdue is the Mary Marxist who used to lead a one-person “organization” called Rainbow RED, spent a lot of time last year on blogs calling on queers to vote socialist or communist for prez (was one even on the ballot?).

      You make Ron Paul look like Ted Kennedy by comparison, fucktard.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      If questioning LGBT movement tactics is betrayal, then were members of the community engaging in betrayal by asking some tough questions in the sad aftermath of Prop 8?

      A movement is only as good as its ability to debate strategies and tactics. Neither you nor anyone else has the right, nor the ability, to prevent people from asking questions of this or any other LGBT movement strategy or tactic.

      What you do have is the ability to answer questions instead of spewing. Tell us how this march is “civil disobedience.” Tell us what the tangible political yield will be. Or just keep bleating and spewing. You’re anti-gay, because all you have done here is attack gay people, instead of engaging in a discussion.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Joel:

      Sorry, Sir, but your motivations for being on this thread are not altogether altruistic either.

      Demanding that people give credit only your viewpoints about how to gain civil-rights, poo-pooing anyone’s elses input, ideas and suggestions and demanding that LGBT people not participate in the MoV, is NOT engaging in a discussion.

      In plain, old-fashioned terms, what you are doing is called brow-beating.

      Time for the pot to stop calling the kettle black.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      I give credit to people like Brian and others on this and other threads who have advocated a local-first approach.

      I’ve asked questions, you and Bill Perdue and the other minority march supporters have dodged them, completely, abjectly, and only offered up attacks on motives.

      You’re the pot calling the kettle beige.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Joel:

      Who elected you Queen of the May and what makes you think that I or any of my LGBT brothers or sisters need to check with you or Brian first for permission to march, answer any of your dumb questions or get clearance for our motivations before we can participate in the obtaining of our civil-rights in whatever manner we see fit?

      You can stomp your feet and demand all you like, but last I heard, this is still a free country and we still have the right to assemble publicly to voice our displeasure with our government, unlike Communist countries where that right is squashed like a bug.

      If you and Brian have such a driving need to control the lives of LGBT people and limit their expression in the ongoing struggle for equality, perhaps Poland, Hungary or Russia might be more to your liking. There are many people in those countries who think just like you and Brian who would be very happy to welcome you into the fold.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 3:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Joel:

      No one elected you Queen of the May and no one is obliged to answer your questions, much less listen to your rhetoric or follow your dictates.

      Last I heard, this is still a free country and it’s citizens are allowed to publicly express their displeasure with their government unlike Communist countries where the freedom of expression is squashed like a bug

      Perhaps you would find Cuba, Poland, Hungary or Russia more to your liking. There are many people in those places who would agree agree with your stance and would happily welcome you into the fold.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Sorry about the replication. There was a technical glitch with posting my former comment and I was obliged to re-compose it.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      Schlukitz the advocate of free thought, expression and opposition.

      Except when it comes to doubting the march. His command in that instance is: “STFD and STFU.”

      You know, like in Cuba, and Russia at times. As for Hungary and Poland, they are no longer very restrictive on freedom of expression. The Berlin Wall is down, too. And Newt Gingrich is no longer Speaker. If there are any other Politics 101 updates you might require before heading to DC, let us know. I’d hate for inaccurate signs to join the visual shame of the low turnout.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Leona Trotsky
      Leona Trotsky

      Poland, Hungary and Russia are communist again? Hey Billy Perdue, call your trick in the Cuban state travel office today! Package deals for your entire Rainbow RED Organization to have a comintern meeting in more nations than ever since the fall of the wall! A 1973 Aeroflot cargo plane is available for charter. It only has one passenger seat, though — it can take the entire Rainbow RED contingent!

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      the visual shame of the low turnout

      How theatrical.

      Attend any town hall meetings around the country to protest national health care, did you?

      Your howling and foot-stomping have been very effective, I’m sure.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      Funny you should mention the health care town hall meetings. I find their hollering deplorable, but their strategic overseers were pretty smart. In a matter of weeks, they stripped the gears off the WH and Congress. Public option bye bye.

      And how many of them had to trample the Mall first? How many detours to DC?

      It must be pretty tough to face up to the fact that an angry Right-wing Wal-Mart greeter has more political clout than you, than us, but it’s a sorry fact.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Leona Trotsky: Mikey Bedwetter, aka, Mikey Bed well, another Democrat opposed to the march pipes up with his usual venom.

      Mikey is perennially pissed off because he’s a total loser. Hillary is still not President. ENDA is going to be reintroduced in it’s original inclusive form. And Oprah, far from being the ‘bitch’ you called her for supporting Obama, is doing quite well. And African American Churches are not mostly composed of bigots, as you allege. And the Jena Six are free, in spite of the ravings of bigots like David Duke and the Hilbot who said “… Jasmyne Cannick’s site where she proudly displays a photo of a table with individual pictures of the Six fronted by a host of votive candles as if they were dead not simply overcharged thugs. Let a thousand hip hop homages bloom. We should be glad, we suppose, that she didn’t blame the treatment of the Six on the Racist Gay White Mafia.” What garbage.

      Mikey reminds me a lot of J. Edgar Hoover. Simple minded, blindingly rightwing, against progress and unable to answer political questions.

      @Joel: “If questioning LGBT movement tactics is betrayal, then were members of the community engaging in betrayal by asking some tough questions in the sad aftermath of Prop 8?” No. EQCA and No on 8 screwed up because they were Democrats. Some of them were christers which is even worse.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Leona Trotsky
      Leona Trotsky

      Well sold me. We should all run around telling people to vote socialist and communist, even when there isn’t a candidate like that on the ballot!

      And don’t forget what Chairman Mao say: religion is poison!

      I’m feeling the momentum already!

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com
      Michael @ LeonardMatlovich.com

      @Bill Perdue:

      Perhaps it’s the hangover from all those psychotropic drugs you’re apparently on based on that hallucinatory laundry of list of goals you posted yesterday on PamsHouseBlend under one of your Net Troll pseudonyms about a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT guaranteeing a MINIMUM wage of $25 an hour. Dream on, Mary Trotsky.

      But I digress.

      There’s nothing on this page that says I’m against the March. In fact, I am the organizer of one of its related events [see below] and conceived of another one: a laying of a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington by discharged gay vets.

      [img]http://wiedamark.com/nem/MatlovichMemorialDraftBW5x.jpg[/img]

      This graphic will soon be updated to reflect the unfortunate withdrawal of Vince Patton due to a change in the date of a pre-commitment, and the addition of speakers

      LGBT movement legends Frank Kameny and the Rev. Troy Perry

      DADT casuality Alex Nicholson, founder of Servicemembers United.

      Gay former Marine SSgt and winner of the Purple Heart Eric Alva

      Former Army CPT Tanya Domi who testified before the House Armed Services Committee during 1993 pre-DADT hearings as director of NGLTF’s Military Freedom Project, and

      Civil rights veteran David Mixner who was the leader of the 1993 effort to end the ban and was arrested at the White House protesting its transformation into DADT. Others to be announced.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      “unable to answer political questions”

      Um, never mind, Mr. Perdue.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Joel: We can’t answer your questions any more than we can answer the questions of the thugs Ruper Murdoch sends to health care forums.

      That’s because you have no questions. What you have is an instinctive pigheaded rightwingers opposition to advancing the LGBT agenda, exposing the homohating bigotry of the Democrats and creating a LGBT left wing.

      We are going to do all that over time and all you can do is freak out about it, but you should know that no one is paying the slightest attention to you while you do your little act.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 5:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      @schlukitz: No one is saying you have to ask for permission. It’s not like we make up some kind of council who will tear up your plane tickets and slap your wrists. But it might be nice if you could just answer one simple question: what the fuck kind of benefit do you expect to get from this little march? Go if you want, that’s your business. Call it a vacation for all I care. But stop pretending that you’re changing the world with this.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Bill Perdue:
      @Joel:

      You guys who seem to “live politics” and always try to appear to be experts sure waste a lot of time. LGBT people have “played” politics for 40 years with little to no success. There is NO magical political strategy or solution as long as WE ARE WRONG.

      You both demean the effort to convert people poisoned with the religious belief that we are WRONG. Until we deal with that – NO EQUALITY.

      Comparisons to Blacks and civil rights don’t fit as nicely as you two suggest. Blacks we not branded by the Bible as wrong, sinful and deviant. It is much different. Until we end that “branding” by religion your political efforts are a waste of time and energy.

      I agree with Chance about the gay-friendly efforts. It is not significant to be invited to the party, when everyone at the party believes you are defective. It is, like the Lutheran Pastor Erik said “window dressing.”

      Some day our community will have the courage to reject what made us wrong – Biblical lies. A few congregations flying rainbow flags is not enough. Or someone like Vicky Gene Robinson who cares more about his income than his community.

      We have to re-define ourselves and then change minds. Until then, no equality. Sure, we may win a few court battles, but we’ll never be EQUAL as long as we continue to be defined as wrong, sinful and deviant.

      We’re not wrong. Do something about that.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cheesus
      Cheesus

      r-r-r-r-rapture.

      @Brian:

      redifing myself is not an option. I’m tired of redefing anything but werds. words my sir. its all in the language. Language is going to set us free…the law of cummincation in this day and age is fraught (did i spell that right?) with inuendo, slander, anxiety and dildo logic. The media tells me so. Yes the media, not the goons who play PT Barnum, but the staright up shit I read in the economist or the NYT. Peeps dont care what other peeps have to say. They only care what they see. Thas a problem. or the preblom. Gayelles need to communicate suffering. Suffer the gays. You know what im talking about? Play it by their rules then turn it over..detournment.

      That poof ninja, cleve (em in half , take the money) Jones….is a fool.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      Brian: You and I agree that this march is not the right idea at this time. I disagree strongly with you, however, that spending a lot of time focusing on political organizing has done nothing but “waste a lot of time” or that there has been “little or no success.”

      The many cities, counties and states that have successfully passed LGBT rights have not done so because the Tooth Fairy visited. It took political work, legislation, fundraising, communications and campaigns. From partner benefits in many cities and counties, to non-discrimination laws, to six states with same-sex marriage, something more than “little or no success” has been realized within a single generation.

      And please stop drumbeating your theory that we cannot realize progress as long as organized religion exists. What empirical evidence do you have for this political theory of yours? Was the state of Mass. cleansed of its religious moorings for a spell, each time gay rights measures were debated and passed?

      What is the experiential evidence for your political theory? And from those case studies, what would you have us do now? Mobilize people to be counter-preachers? It’s all absurd and, frankly, politically immature.

      Sep 4, 2009 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      What we resist persists – Carl Jung.

      Instead of focusing (and wasting) energy on making the church wrong, in the same manner that the church focuses on making us wrong, our energies would be better spent making equality a reality, whether the church opts to bestow it’s blessings on it or not. Their participation in our equality is of no consequence. Nor, is it required.

      By resisting them, all we do is give them more power. If we channel all of that energy into creating the happiness we desire, then it will happen in spite of what they say or do. Their “resistance” will cause their failure in the same way our “resistance makes failure of our efforts.

      This country loves to declare war on everything, from poverty to drugs to terrorism. And sad to say, we are losing every one of those wars. The whole idea of fighting a war, is a self-fulfilling prophecy for failure and unhappiness.

      If, for example, we focus on poverty, then we do not see the many ways in which we can become successful and abundant. All we see is the attendant lack of abundance, misery and suffering.

      If we focus instead on ways in which to be imaginative, inventive and creative, abundance occurs as a result and the misery and the suffering falls away by itself without having to declare “war” on it.

      Poverty only exists when we give it permission to exist which is why welfare and philanthropy are such colossal failures. By always “giving” to people and doing for them, as a way of “fighting” poverty, all we do is rob people of the ability and the joy of doing for themselves and make dependent slaves of them.

      If we focus on war as a way in which to achieve peace (a total misnomer) then are we not deprived of the very peace that fighting the war denies us the enjoyment of?

      Now, think about this suggested “war” on the church while applying the principles of Carl Jung.

      Is a two-thousand year “Crusade” really what we are interested in pursuing and creating for ourselves?

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chance:

      Make the World a Better Place for Having Lived in it – Edward W. Bok

      Sep 4, 2009 at 11:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      No one is trying to get rid of religion, so stop trying to discredit us as just some crazy atheists. No one has been saying that in these threads, as far as I understand the comments. What some of us are wanting is a higher standard of responsibility and accountability for religious beliefs. For some pastors to recognize the historical weight of religious dogma on the LGBT community, and to take a stand against it. For congregants and believers to think about the consequences of their beliefs, and to decide to do the right thing. To act with integrity and put equality ahead of faith.

      You want a political solution? That’s the only way you’re ever going to get one. Remember this – the personal is political. We get our rights when people don’t hate us, and people don’t hate us when they relax the death grip they have on their bibles. Politicians, with a few noble exceptions, will only act when they are confident that enough of their constituents are reasonable people who won’t throw them out of office for doing the right thing. But many politicians don’t even consider equality the right thing to do, and you know why? Because of their religious beliefs.

      Lobby politicians and Supreme Court Justices, and maybe one day we’ll get some legal rights. But the people who think we are biblically wrong will resent the politicians, the courts, and us for those rights. And they will passionately fight to reverse that progress, or they will quietly continue discriminating against us. Hate crimes will still happen, but people will be more careful to hide their motives. Gay men and women will still be denied housing and employment – they just won’t call us faggots until we leave the room.

      But if we change the conversation so that homosexuality isn’t a sin and isn’t wrong, we’ll get our rights, AND we won’t always have to be looking over our shoulders for the next bit of discrimination. And young gay kids won’t have to struggle with coming out to a hostile world. And hate crimes will be an exception, not an expectation. This is all attainable NOW. Wouldn’t you rather live in that world, with full equality, then one in which the majority are forced to tolerate our equal rights?

      Sep 5, 2009 at 12:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chance:

      But if we change the conversation so that homosexuality isn’t a sin and isn’t wrong, we’ll get our rights, AND we won’t always have to be looking over our shoulders for the next bit of discrimination. And young gay kids won’t have to struggle with coming out to a hostile world. And hate crimes will be an exception, not an expectation. This is all attainable NOW. Wouldn’t you rather live in that world, with full equality, then one in which the majority are forced to tolerate our equal rights?

      Good luck. Personally, I think you are being overly optimistic, but if you can do it, more power to you. I am not one to piss on anyone’s parade!

      As the old adage goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

      Sep 5, 2009 at 12:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chance
      Chance

      @Chance: And if anyone still thinks I’m blowing smoke, just take a look at Gallup’s 2008 research: With regards to the question, “Is religion an important part of your daily life,” the 4 least religious states are…

      Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts

      Now where have I seen those states before…

      @schlukitz: Thanks. I hope that when things take off in this direction, you’ll join the strategy. I do appreciate your comments.

      Just curious, how does one skin a cat? I only know of the one way. What are a few of your favorites? How do you keep them still while you work?

      Sep 5, 2009 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chance:

      http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mor1.htm

      Sep 5, 2009 at 1:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Chance:

      I am not certain if this comment was intended for Brian, or the both os us?

      No one is trying to get rid of religion, so stop trying to discredit us as just some crazy atheists.

      I am an atheist myself. Why would I want to discredit a fellow atheist?

      Sep 5, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @Chance: I agree the ONLY way to get “equality” is to end the “wrong” of being homosexual. Religion must change and agree to reject the homosexuals lies about us.

      There are several studies – ARIS and the Pew Foundation, that studied “religious influence.” Both studies confirm the Gallup polls: 1/3 was “non-religious,” 1/3 was “very-religious,” and the “uncertain middle” is 1/3. The target should be the uncertain middle, many of them will put “equality BEFORE religion.” This would change everything.

      Joel mentioned our recent “victories” for SSM in several states – ALL of those States are mostly “non-religious.” Plus, I would point out that in Maine and Washington RELIGION is working hard to overturn those successes. Expect religion to show up anywhere we make progress.

      It is very simple – Religion made us wrong. Until we fix that, we’ll never have Equality. I’m not interested in laws being passed to grant us rights as much as I want real equality. I can’t be equal as long as the majority of Americans believe I am wrong, sinful and deviant. I’m NOT WRONG.

      If we focus on the “beliefs,” and not just the “believers,” we can begin to re-define ourselves. I don’t think that’s a political (lobbying) effort, but rather a heart-to-heart conversation with our friends, neighbors, co-workers and anyone that will listen. Good people will put equality before religion.

      Sep 5, 2009 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      I did a few searches on the National Equality March. It hasn’t made the News, except for Queerty and a few other gay sites. I had checked because I haven’t heard a single person mention it. Here in Dallas nobody has said a word. I’m beginning to believe that they might be lucky to get just 20,000 people.

      Yeah, I’d call that very telling. Anything less that 500,000 looks terrible. This event was poorly planned and now it looks like a big embarrassment.

      Sep 5, 2009 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Brian:

      and anyone that will listen.

      And what of those who refuse to listen?

      How do you plan on winning them over and transforming this into a planet of love and peace?

      The Flower Children tried the very same thing back in the Woodstock era. Peace and love was their motto.

      Why don’t we have that close to 40 years later?

      Sep 6, 2009 at 1:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      “Why don’t we have that close to 40 years later?”

      Obviously because we didn’t have enough courteous meet ups on the Mall in Washington. Yes, that’s right, it couldn’t be because millions of us have failed to stand up right in our own communities and make ourselves known, it’s because we didn’t traipse off to Washington more often, to wave signs in front of a Congress bereft of…congresspeople. It isn’t because most of us have never taken a moment out of our day every now and then to Google who our county commissioners are, our state assemblylpersons, our state senators, our school board members, our town councilpersons, and speak out. It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the fact that too many of us have confused cocktail parties with activism, or writing checks sitting down with the power of standing up and speaking out to every person who knows us.

      Folks, we still got ourselves a big heap o’ closet. Too many of us have rationalized not telling a neighbor, a co-worker, or others near us who already respect us. Let’s be honest with ourselves: there are days when more people in the non-gay are discussing our lives than we are discussing our lives with THEM.

      Even those of us who have been out for years, too many of us remain politically closeted from officials with direct impact upon our lives.

      Cleve worked for Harvey Milk. The most important part of the most important quote from Harvey: “Come out, come out, WHEREVER YOU ARE.”

      Sep 6, 2009 at 9:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @schlukitz: “And what of those who refuse to listen?

      Marginalize them. With a concerted effort those “very religious” will become the minority.

      “How do you plan on winning them over and transforming this into a planet of love and peace?”

      We only have to “win over” enough to create a majority. Or was this a decorating question? If so, we have that covered. ; )

      Sep 6, 2009 at 11:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Joel:

      I am sorry, buddy, but your rant comes off sounding like a self-righteous rail against “lazy queers”.

      traipsing

      waving signs

      failing to Google our county commissioners

      failing to Google our State Assemblypersons

      failing to Google our State Senators

      failing to Google our School Board members

      failing to Google our Town Councilpersons

      failing to speak out to every person who knows us

      attending too many cocktail parties

      writing too many checks while sitting on our asses

      What a fucking litany!!! You make us out to be a bunch of criminals. Who do you think you are, lecturing us in such a manner? Mother Theresa?

      And who the fuck are you to make yourself out to be such a glorious saint, while you hurl unfounded accusations (hate speech) against the LGBT community that are more spurious than anything a straight homophobe could have written about us?

      You come off sounding like some kind of martyr. YOU and YOU alone, are doing all of these glorious things for the good of the gay community while the rest of of slobs do nothing. Are you a reincarnation of SM, by any chance?

      Fuck you and the donkey you rode in on. And I say that not in the nicest of ways.

      I am many of my brothers and sisters have been doing all of the things you mentioned long before you were even a gleam in your father’s eye. I suggest that you take a good hard look at your own back yard before telling everyone else to clean-up theirs.

      Tell me, how does it feel spending Sundays nailed to the cross for the lazy-assed “gehys” who arfe doing absolutely nothing to attain equality?

      Sep 6, 2009 at 12:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Brian:

      Thank you, Brian, for a courteous and respectful response and one that wasn’t filled with hellfire and brimstone for our failures as gays. LOL

      And, I fully agree with you. All it takes to win, is one percentage point over half of the populace. And given the slim margin the haters had on Prop8 in California, that should not be too hard to accomplish.

      And as a person who can identify the colors chartreuse or puce from a paint color chart, I enjoy your sense of humor. ;o)

      Sep 6, 2009 at 12:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jwbcubed
      jwbcubed

      I’m just tired of being a second class citizen. Since when should we have to ask for what is rightfully ours? In our attempt to get rights like everyone else, we have become everyone else. I am not like everyone else. I don’t think like them I don’t act like them and there are very few I can tolerate for long periods of time. When did it become important to be like them to get the same kind of equality they have? I think we have been sold a line of crap from the beginning about what needs to be done and how to get it done. Playing by their rules hasn’t seem to work thus far, why can’t we just do it OUR way?

      Sep 6, 2009 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joel
      Joel

      Obviously, tens of thousands of us have gotten active. But not enough, yes I said it. We are similar to the women’s movement in the wake of the Webster decision. Countless repro rights figures have said as much, by analogy was that sanctimonious “hate speech” as you breathlessly allege? And let’s not forget how very politically potent we once were out of dire necessity, fighting for our very survival in the 80s and 90s, and how we have simply lost many bright lights, with too few replacements. That’s turning around now, with a new sense of public service among LGBT youth, just as we are seeing a renewed spirit of public service among all youth (and they’re more pro-gay than ever). But I suppose such sociopolitical and demographic observations are just more “hate speech” to you. What gibberish.

      Sep 6, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      @Joel: Maybe Queerty should begin a conversation about LGBT Equality “strategies.” Some important comments have been lost in this thread about that silly March.

      Sep 7, 2009 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JJ M.
      JJ M.

      @Brian: I recognize that the climate in Canada is vastly different then that in the United States, but not all Christian organizations believe LGBT people to be “wrong” or sinful. Canada’s largest Protestant Church, the United Church of Canada, is one such example.

      They don’t believe that to be gay is wrong, sinful, or disordered. It’s just part of the normal continuity of human diversity. In the year 2000, their 37th General Council affirmed that “human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation”. The United Church of Canada was also one of the earlier proponents of marriage equality in Canada, with Church representatives appearing before the Supreme Court of Canada arguing on behalf of marriage equality. Furthermore same-sex couples can be married under God, with full blessing of the United Church of Canada should they choose to.

      As easy as it may be to lambast all Christians groups as bigoted and hateful, it’s wrong. No more, but also no less wrong, then how they spread vitriolic lies and hate-filled messages about LGBT people. Even if the vast majority of Christians, and Christian organizations do indeed hold hateful views of LGBT, it is important to always remember that, that the majority never encompasses everyone. While myself and my family have never been religious, I strongly believe that true equality and tolerance extends to everyone including Christians. They are people too, real living breathing human beings, just like you and I. Not all of them are hateful people. On an individual basis, and even on the organizational level, such as the United Church of Canada, many of them support our quest for equality wholeheartedly.

      Just as we do not wish to be viewed through skewed, and inaccurate stereotypes, as less then human caricatures; neither do the millions of Christians who support true equality and recognize that gay people are just people. Normal human beings no more or no less inherently sinful or deviant then anyone else. To say that all Christian organizations believe that gay people are “wrong”, is about as accurate and as mature a statement as any number of the hate-filled lies that the religious right spreads about LGBT people.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Andrew:

      Some important comments have been lost in this thread about that silly March.

      As well they should have been. The conversation wasn’t worth continuing, in case you haven’t noticed and which obviously prompted your need to “revive” it.

      And what’s so important about taking a dump on the efforts of those who believe in what they are trying to accomplish for the LGBT movement?

      If you really need to take a dump on something, take a dump on the folks who have necessitated our having to go to Washington DC to get heard in our struggle to gain the civil-rights we should always have had.

      You’re “angst” should be directed against the “silly” people who started this, not the victims.

      Go piss on someone else’s petunias.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @JJ M.:

      So, what you are saying to us, is pretty much the same as what Pastor Lura preached at us.

      Be nice little boys and girls and stop being such meanies.

      After all, it’s not really the Church’s fault is some of their membership (a lot) say mean and nasty things about queers, is it?

      I mean, it’s not like it’s a reflection of the Church’s official views on homosexuality being wrong, deviant and sinful, is it?

      Sep 10, 2009 at 5:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JJ M.
      JJ M.

      @schlukitz: Please accept my apologies if my earlier post was unclear.

      What I am trying to say, is that we shouldn’t be such “meanies” making statements such as “ALL religious denominations still make homosexuality wrong” when it is patently untrue.

      Some religious denominations, including Canada’s LARGEST Protestant Church, do not consider homosexuality to be wrong, unnatural, sinful, disordered, etc. They consider it just to be part and parcel of the human experience, that “human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation”

      Grouping all religious-denominations together as being hateful is not only immature but just plain incorrect, even if the overwhelming majority think that homosexuality is wrong, some do not and its unfair to group them all together. Just as it is unfair to group all gay people together into certain stereotypes, its unfair to make broad and all-encompassing statements about religious groups.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 7:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Andrew: : ”Maybe Queerty should begin a conversation about LGBT Equality “’strategies’…

      The only strategy you need concern yourself with is your exit strategy from the GLBT movement. Your mulish opposition to mass marches for equality is a good start. Now finish the job and go home to your log cabin.

      @JJ M.:

      schlukitz is exactly right. Our responses to bigoted cults has to be a campaign to poltitically suppress them.

      Their hate speech is criminal.

      Their consistent use of cult beliefs as a cover for rape is criminal.

      Their opposition to HIV/AIDs education and treatment is criminal.

      They’re criminals and they have to be put down using every political means at our disposal – jailing rapists for life, confiscatory taxes and confiscation of their wealth, secularizing their schools, and making them pay for local police agencies to provide armed guards to protect children and others when priests, rabbis, pastors or mullahs are on the loose.

      As for the rest, the so-call ‘gay friendly’ cults, they should be taxed just like any other component of the entertainment industry.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 8:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JJ M.
      JJ M.

      @Bill Perdue: @Bill Perdue:

      Please accept my sincerest apologies for my apparent difficulties in accurately conveying what I am trying to say.
      All I am trying to say, is that when we say that all religious groups are bigoted, hateful, etc we are stooping to their level, as it is patently false assesment. While the vast majority do indeed regard homosexuality as “evil”, some do not meaning the blanket statements about all Christian groups are about as true as many of the stereotype-driven invective statements by religious conservatives. As I mentioned earlier, the United Church of Canada does not regard homosexuality as evil, not just at a local level but officially at their national level. Furthermore, even some churches in the United States are supportive of marriage equality. In 2005, the United Church of Christ became America’s first mainline Protestant church to officially support marriage equality. Passing a resolution affirming “equal marriage rights for couples regardless of gender”

      I completely agree that their hate speech is criminal, in fact in Canada inciting hatred against an identifiable group which includes LGBT people is a criminal offence. I completely agree that their use of religious beliefs as a shield for rape is criminal, and I completely believe that their opposition to proper sex-education and HIV/AIDS education and treatment is criminal. I even agree that religious groups should not have tax-exempt status. I in no way disagree with your above statements, however they are completely unrelated to the message I was trying to convey in my original post. That said, I also believe that just as blanket statements from their side are hurtful and not founded in truth, similar blanket statements from our side also lack a solid foundation. That’s all I was trying to say – that blanket statements such as “ALL religious denominations still make homosexuality wrong” are wrong because they are untrue.

      Mr. Brian posed the question “Find a Christian organization that DOESN’T make homosexuality WRONG. That would be progress.” — while I’ve found one, while there are not many, they do indeed exist.

      I don’t disagree that hateful groups should be suppressed, all I was trying to say is that it is unfair, because it is untrue, to make broad encompassing statements and group all religious groups together as being hateful.

      I haven’t even graduated university yet, but I feel like I am arguing with children.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 9:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @JJ M.: Well, that’s a great relief. Now that I know that you agree with me is it all right if I go back to playing with my toy. His name is Roy and he’s a lot of fun to play with.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @JJ M.:

      You won’t get too far presenting a reasonable argument in here, actually. I have tried numerous times.

      And regarding Canada’s United Church, I have already put their clear statement regarding homosexuality in front of Brian and he refused to recognize it.

      Best of luck, but don’t expect to make much headway with some of these zealots.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JJ M.
      JJ M.

      @Bill Perdue: I am sorry if I have offended you, my last statement was improper. I was just trying to express my frustration at the incomprehensible level of disconnect between my original post and the replies to it.

      I agree with every statement you made. I don’t even know why I made the original post, as I have not been in a church since my parents had me baptized for tradition’s sake, but I was just trying to convey that not all churches are hateful. Even if the overwhelming majority of them are, it is just as much a lie to say that they are all hateful as it is for religious conservatives to say that gay people are inherently sinful.

      My sincerest apologies if I have offended you, it was unintentional and not meant as a personal insult.

      Sep 10, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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