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Yup, Seventeen‘s Article About ‘Lying’ Transgender Boyfriends Is Offensive!

SeventeenMagazineNovember2009IssueC

This skit about dressing your faggy son up in a masculine Halloween costume is a joke. You know that, because it’s produced by The Onion. But this article, about women “deceived” by their boyfriends who hide their female-to-male transgender status, is not supposed to be, because it’s published by Seventeen magazine. Oh, so it’s just offensive on purpose?

Seventeen_MyBoyfriendTurnedOutTo-1

We doubt Seventeen started out the pitch for “True Life Drama: My BOYFRIEND turned out to be a girl!” as a way to offend the transgender community. But then there’s the “little” things, like interchanging male and female pronouns without caution. Oh, and the big stuff: Sending the message that FTMs are out there to “trick” biological women into relationships — without any acknowledgment that, hey, there might be some transgender readers of Seventeen and, hey, they might be having a pretty miserable go of things too. “The point is that the Seventeen editor for this story chose to portray female-to-male trans youth as really girls — and by extension male-to-female trans youth are really boys,” writes trans blogger Autumn Sandeen. “In the way the story was presented, it portrayed all trans people as being deceptive liars — and ‘lie’ is their word, not mine. Trans people, and many others in and out of LGBT community, know that genitalia and the gender markers on identification documents don’t always tell the full gender story of an individual. What the sensationalizing of this Seventeen story does is a recipe for teaching intolerance to trans youth based on gender identity and expression, and this recipe — when I think about Brandon Teena and Angie Zapata — is also a recipe for fueling violence against trans people.”

And in case you were wondering, yes, there is a Facebook campaign.

By:           editor editor
On:           Oct 27, 2009
Tagged: , , , ,

  • 154 Comments
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      Sorry if you are FTM and begin sleeping with females you are then straight. Please remove the “T” from “GLBT” foursome.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • naghanenu
      naghanenu

      Hmm Terri..no you are not. I am sorry bt if a man came on to me, i would expect him to be a natural born man.
      I want the penis, the balls,yeah the works. I want a physical man not someone with an idea that he is

      I have nothing against trannies personally but do you not think it is fair to give the person you are after the full disclosure on your situation so he or she can make their own mind.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adam
      Adam

      @ Terrwill, you’re an idiot.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      I agree with Naghaneu— And I have been trying to figure out why for some time. Even if “bottom surgery” were better (and it isn’t).. I really wouldn’t want sex with a FTM. When I sex with a guy, I want a guy. An XY kinda guy. I don’t dislike Transexuals, and I *do* see their membership in the queer community as valid, and essential… but I would be royally pissed if I took a guy home to find out he was FtM.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 12:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dizzyspins
      dizzyspins

      The Seventeen magazine article probably didnt handle the trans issue with tact, but how can someone complain about that when the crux of the situation was that the FTM boyfriend deceived his girlfriend abt something serious. Her trust is likely shattered. Oh but we can’t criticize anyone in the LGBT community, because that would be un-PC. What if a guy neglected to tell a woman he was really married, or that he knew full well he was really gay? Its ridiculous to start some campaign against Seventeen.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 12:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      @ DIZZYSPINS – Couldn’t have said it better myself

      Oct 27, 2009 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Sorry, Terrwill, Dizzyspins, and Naghanenu, but your comments are illogical and hurtful. Its one thing to say that you wouldn’t sleep with a transman and a completely different thing to say that he’s a liar and deserves to be rejected because he’s trans.

      I’m a gay transman and I do belong in the alphabet soup, just like bisexuals and queers who also don’t match your definition of perfect gayness, Terrwill. You don’t get to decide who belongs and who doesn’t despite your wishes to expel those you’ve decided are too different to accept. This isn’t about being PC, its about respect. Trans people don’t choose to be trans, just like gay people don’t choose to be gay.

      I am fully aware that many gay men feel that transmen aren’t men because they lack the genitalia that men usually have, but again, you don’t get to decide who’s a man and who isn’t. I love men and all the accessories that come with them so I do understand where you are coming from Naghanenu, but I can’t help what I was born with. If you met me on the street you would have no idea that I am trans and this is what freaks people out — that they are being deceived by “fake” men. I am not fake, an idea, a ‘she’, or a freak. I just live my life the best way I know how and am fully aware that if someone finds out that I’m trans I risk being rejected or worse, killed. I prefer not carving a T on my forehead to make your life easier and less complicated.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      ADAM: You are an asshat, read my post. If you chose to become a member of ONE sex and then have sex with members of the OPPOSITE sex you are no longer a HOMOSEXUAL. You are a HETROSEXUAL. We put up with enough shit from every quarter for us attempting to live our lives as we are born and don’t need others trying to squeeze under our however slight umbrella of protection…………….

      Oct 27, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      And to KIAN: I have seen numerous interviews with trans couples where when asked how they view themselves the repy is “as any other straight couple”…….Sorry once you utter those words are just as you identify yourselves: a straight couple. If you have trouble with acceptance that is your choice, don’t attempt to hitch your wagons to our struggle, living as we were born…….

      Oct 27, 2009 at 1:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      @Terrwill: Can I get witness!

      Oct 27, 2009 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Terrwill: did you not read what I wrote? I am not straight. Trans people come in all the flavors of people, just like non-trans people. Some are gay, some are straight, some are bisexual and some are queer. And some, like you, are angry and need to put down other people to make themselves feel better. So, do you feel any better?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      Kian: So you’re a biological woman, who identifies as male and you date men?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 2:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Rydderch: again, did you read what I wrote. No, I’m not a woman. And yes I am attracted to men exclusively.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tina
      Tina

      Sigh….another trans related news article, another thread of comments hating on my siblings.

      No matter who you choose to date, the lgbt movement is INCREDIBLY important to trans people. Even if the trans guy likes girls or the trans girl likes boys, they are still discriminated against and ridiculed for too many things to count. We still end up starting over and re-learning sociey’s cues at a later point in life. We still face the discrimination when we don’t ‘pass’, and sexual preference has nothing to do with that. You still have to come out to old friends and family every. single. time. that one of them contacts you. GLB get the option to disclose if they want: but our voices change and we move on.

      No, I wouldn’t disclose to a stranger if she asked me out. I’d get to know her and such, and only disclose if i felt the relationship could continue. No point otherwise, its my decision. I don’t know how many times I’ve been rejected out of hand for being an ‘out’ trans girl, the only possible way to play the dating game is to buy into the stupid cisgender privilege. Give people a chance to get to know me, then they realize that i’m just like any other lesbian…

      Oct 27, 2009 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      KIAN: I am not angry, I am GAY! and if you read my whole posts are are able to read what I am saying is that those trans persons who claim they are straight are just what they claim: Straight, Hetros, Breeders, what ever you wish to call them. they ARE NOT GAY and therfore I don’t feel the Gay community has any obligation nor responsibility to include them in our struggles for equality. It seems kinda “straight”forward to me…………………….

      Oct 27, 2009 at 3:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andres
      Andres

      They were pretty consistent in the use of the politically correct pronoun for a FTM: “he”. What was offensive was that they dared to speak the truth. And yes, her boyfriend DIE lie about his bandages, etc, and not come out to her as transsexual, a necessary thing if you’re planning to be intimate with someone.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      I beg to differ. You are angry and you do put others down.

      Exhibit A: http://www.queerty.com/the-web-is-full-of-misinformed-bigots-kassie-dill-is-our-new-favorite-20091026/#comment-229005

      Exhibit B:
      http://www.queerty.com/why-are-guams-catholics-praising-muslim-terrorists-while-denouncing-gays-20091027/#comment-229233

      I’ve noticed you for quite some time and not for your reasoned well thought-out responses, but for your hostility. Almost all of your posts are riddled with slurs, particularly when its something that gets your blood boiling.

      And if the gay community has no obligation nor responsibility to include the straight trans people, then what about gay trans people? Are you going to tell me I’m not gay because I’m not really a man, but a confused straight woman? Are you going to tell a straight transman that he is not straight because he’s a confused butch lesbian? I’ve heard all of these accusations before and every single one came from someone who was afraid to be associated with trans people, lest other people get confused about who’s really gay and who’s sick and perverted.

      The reality is that bigots do not make the distinctions that you are making. They lump us all together, not the other way around. I never asked for gay people to support trans issues. In fact, gay people are usually the least supportive of trans issues so I usually try to not have these “discussions” on exclusively gay websites. But here we are… again.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 3:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      I would have no trouble dating an MTF girl if, you know, I was attracted to them. But I deserve to know. I’m a mover and shaker in the queer community here, if everything else is going well, I probably won’t care if you’re trans. But if I had been dating someone for a bit, and we were hitting it off, and they never told me, I would be angry. I’m sorry, but that’s quite a big deal. If I work with you, keep your birth sex to yourself. I don’t care. It’s none of my business. If we’re dating…I deserve to know.

      I didn’t read the article, but I feel bad for this girl because someone she loved was not who she thought he was. And that hurts, at any age. As a teenager, that’s tough to take gracefully.

      Now Seventeen’s editor’s are grown-ass adults, and should know better than to title it “I found out my boyfriend was a girl!” No, you found out your boyfriend was transgender. And switching up the pronouns, that’s some bullshit. So they can screw themselves. Just trying to put another, hopefully respectful spin on it.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 3:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      My last post was directed to Terrwill. Sorry for the confusion.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 3:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • YellowRanger
      YellowRanger

      I fail to see the problem with this.

      If I ever took a FTM home with me and then found out at the last second that they were born with a vagina, I’d freak right the everliving fuck out.

      Partly because I’d be pissed they didn’t warn me in advance, and partly because a fully functioning set of man-parts is a requirement in my bedroom.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 3:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      YellowRanger wrote: “If I ever took a FTM home with me and then found out at the last second that they were born with a vagina, I’d freak right the everliving fuck out.”

      So you would freak out, huh? Then what would you do? Scream, punch, kick, hit, or be polite and say no thank you?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      This is sensationalist garbage from a retarded teen magazine.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      KIAN: Are you crushing on me?????????????????????????
      Awww…..thats sweet that you are such a huge fan of my posts!!!! (I will direct you to my website at a later date where you can purchase my official merchandise!!)

      And as to you pointing out my two other “angry” posts where I “put others down” Yea on “exhibit A” she is an angry cunt who spews vile hatered towards the Gays she deserves every comment I made about her. And to “exhibit B” (even thought there is question about the validity of the original post) It seems like you are somewhat offended by my calling the defending of islamic fundamentalists scumbags who torture and kill any Gay person they can get their hands on pathetic and disgusting. Sorry I guess you prefer to extend the “warm and fuzzies” to those who torture and kill Gays including 13 and 15 year old Gay teens. I am so sorry I offended your tender feelings. Sorry a very close friend of mine was beaten to death for the simple reason that he was Gay. I have zero tolerance or patience for those who spew their pathetic and vile hatred towards us.

      …And I am going to say this once more maybe the third time will be a charm, maybe the hormones you took have clouded your mind. If a trans person changes their gender, and then sleeps with a person of the opposite sex, they are a hetrosexual. Can you understand that concept? here let me illustrate for you:

      1-BOY + BOY = GAY
      2-GIRL + GIRL = GAY
      3-BOY + GIRL = STRAIGHT

      Can you see how that works now????? if you choose door number 3 you are straight. And therefore as I have said before you don’t have any right to ask to be included in the struggle we as in #’s 1& 2 face. I hope this clears things up for you now KIAN dear. My posts on this matter with you are now done……

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      Kian: You really should let someone you’re interested in know what’s up with you. I mean I’m confused and still don’t know if you were born male or female, straight, gay. I’m gay and I’m attracted to other gay men…with big hard cocks. If I found out you didn’t have a cock, I’d be pretty upset too.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Republican
      Republican

      Terrwill,

      I am sorry to hear about your friend.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      rhydderch: I’ve wrote several times that I am a gay transman. I don’t understand what exactly you don’t understand.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      Kian: so you were born a woman but live as a man (hence transman)but you’re gay so you date men? I’m sorry for being so ignorant of transexuals but the phrase “gay transman” is a little confusing. It’s like like a double negative

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Terrwill: I’m not surprised at all that your excuse is that they deserved it. In fact, I expected that response from you.

      And you didn’t answer my questions. Here, let me lay it all out for you, since you so kindly did it for me (apparently you think I’m dense).

      Transman + Man = Gay or straight?

      Transman + Woman = Gay or straight?

      You want both couplings to be straight (or at least not gay), but logic dictates that one is gay and the other is straight. Which one is it?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      Ahh Yay, always fun to be trans on Queerty. A lot like being trans everywhere else, except here they feel even more entitled….

      To everyone who would “freak the fuck out” as a transwoman I can say that disclosure is always a good idea but it is not always easy.

      Do you walk up to everyone you see and disclose your sexuality? If you make a friend do they need to know you are gay right away?

      It can be very hard, you are suddenly opening yourself up to rejection based entirely on how you were born. Not what and who you are.

      If I was born with a 3rd nipple should I disclose that?

      Arrogance and Privilege, these are watchwords that they LGBT community as a whole need to be wary of and we are not.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      rhydderch: Its not a double negative, as far as I’m concerned. If you lost your penis, you’d still be a man, no? Would you allow others to tell you that you are no longer a man and had no right to call yourself gay? You would have a lot of difficulty finding a partner who was willing to date someone like you, but it doesn’t mean that its impossible and it doesn’t mean that looking for a partner is wrong. It may surprise you that some gay men don’t mind having two holes to play with.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @terrwill:
      Do tell, what other groups do you get to decide membership for? Are you the doorman at the Young Republicans? The John Birch Society?

      Pull your head out of your ass, the there is no binary. It is not as simple as all of that.

      I AM goddamned queer and you have no business telling me, or anyone else where we belong.

      I am so sick of that self hating segregationist garbage.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adrian
      Adrian

      you learn something new everyday.

      Terrwill, I was totally following your logic with the exception of one thing. What does it matter whether a trans person identifies him or herself as a man or woman, gay or straight, are they not still trans to the world? I think the answer is yes and thus they are part of the LGBT.

      and I agree with everyone here, when dating I think it’s best for everyone if both parties are aware of what kind of genitalia each has.

      you can love a person’s heart but unless they are going to stick that heart up that big bottom’s ass it’s probably not going to work.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 4:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      I agree that the piece is incredibly offensive — transguys are men, not lying women as the article implies — but it does say something about transpeople who don’t disclose before the relationship gets serious.

      I’m trans, and I have learned to make sure my partners know my trans status before things go any further so they can decide whether they still want to pursue a guy without a penis. If we as transguys haven’t done enough to inform our partners, then we’re partially to blame for people who feel tricked and write these articles.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      As a transgender man, I find this article offensive in the extreme.

      To all you people declaring that you would never have sex with an FTM (or an MTF), guess what: We trans folks wouldn’t want to have sex with narrow-minded pricks like you either. I guess that makes us even.

      I date the kind of people who realize there is more to femininity than pussy and more to masculinity than cock. There are more of them out there than you might realize.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      Just a note: The article I find offensive is the one in Seventeen, not this one in Queerty.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fuzzypony
      fuzzypony

      I think a lot of you are missing the point. If sex is the priority, then yeah, disclosure’s good, but not everybody’s in it for just sex, you know? If you want a meaningful relationship with someone, you want to know they’re into *you,* not how you’re equipped. If they really care about you as a person, they *shouldn’t* care about the details.

      You know what I think makes you a lousy person? If you tell someone you’re in it for the relationship, when you’re just in it for the sex.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DeAnimator
      DeAnimator

      Terrwill, Dizzyspins, and Naghanenu: Well said.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      TARA: I said I wouldn’t post on this thread anymore but this one’s for you:

      “Are you the doorman at the Young Republicans? The John Birch Society?”

      No I am someone who spent six days at a hospital bedside watching my very best friend slowly die after being stomped to death by NINE scumbags who beat the fucking life out of him because he was Gay. He was 19 years old walking to his car from a bar, these subhuman scum piled out of a mini-van and beat him with bats. They broke almost every bone in his body, crushed his testicles, and tried to ram a bat up his ass. We sat through trials where each one of them claimed he “tried to make a pass at them” This was prior to Matthew Sheppard and the internet. There was zero publicity about his case. His killers cried like little bitches at their trials. They ranged from 16 to 19 yet all but one were tried as juveniles. Only one served more than eighteen months in a “detention facility”.

      And you know why this whole trans matter sticks in my craw so bad? Because here is the fucking elephant in the room:

      There is a huge “ick” factor about it. And if you are going to make your change and then claim you are straight then don’t come asking Gays and Lesbians to cover your asses. I have stated more than once that is what pisses me off most about the trans movement. If you are “straight” you are not Gay, fight your own fucking battles. Don’t try and hang on to our coattails. We face enough crap simply for being Gay. And it’s because of that kind of factors that things that happened to Robby occur. Sorry some want to push the items under the rug. I enjoy the banter posting on the threads in this site and while am far from mellow about my opinions, I try and infuse humor and satire into the sometimes absurd things that go on here..I can’t be silent and “accepting” of this one…………….

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ terrwill

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ terrwill
      (Sorry for previous mispost)
      Do you really think that we trans people appreciate being lumped in with LGB people? Do you think we were the ones to do that? I work for an LGBT advocacy non-profit, and do you know how many times trans issues get mentioned? Very rarely, if ever, and when they are, it is because we are being intentional about it. No one really means “LGBT” when they say “LGBT.”

      And do you really think that comes at the expense of gays, or us trans folks?

      You’re probably the sort of person who got in a huff about a trans-inclusive ENDA. Well, get over it. We trans folks have been fighting for LGB rights for our whole lives. It’s about time you LGB folks step up for those of us who make up the rest of the acronym – the Ts, the Qs, the Is, the As. We’ve been fighting with you, alongside you. Why are you so pissed off at us? Oppression against anyone is oppression against us all.

      And for the record, the rates of violence against trans people dwarf the rates of violence against gays and lesbians. Let’s just put that straight right here and now.

      And for the record again, I may be a straight trans male, but I am just as “queer” as anyone else thanks to the way our society treats me. I couldn’t not be queer if I tried, and believe me, I have. I may identify as straight but if you think that comes with a load of perks and privileges you miss out on, think again. How much money do you pay to doctors, psychologists, and pharmacies every month just to be who you are?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @terrwill:

      Fuck you for assuming shit.

      I am sorry your friend was hurt. That is the whole point of this.

      You don’t know what I have gone thru for being trans, much less what I have gone thru in the gay community.

      I have been hunted, I have had to fight people off. I have had some scary encounters all because I am trans. Not to mention the fact that I walk around with my partner.

      You do not know shit, and I am going to be goddamned if I am going to sit here and let you misdirect your valid rage at the evil fucks who attacked your friends at the trans community. You have done it time and time again on this blog and I am sick of it.

      There is a huge ICK factor about being gay too. Is that valid? No. So Shut up before you sound any more like a bigot.

      And you want to know what is really fun? The most dangerous thing that ever happened to me? It was a group of lesbians, upset that I identify as in a lesbian relationship digging up and posting personal details and information about me on the internet.

      How fun is that? Kinda puts a kink in your bigoted argument doesn’t it.

      I did not hurt your friend. No one in the community hurt your friend, and I would have fought beside him had I been there, and probably been hurt too.

      Shove your elephant up your ass.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      I should say… I wouldn’t at all mind the T getting lumped in with LGBT if people actually gave a shit or ever mentioned the problems that Ts face when they talk about LGBT issues as a whole. It is not being identified with LGB people that offends me but the fact that trans issues inevitably get whitewashed by being lumped together with the others as though all queer folks face exactly the same challenges.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 5:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      P.S.
      The “ick” factor has been used by straight men against gays for centuries. Does that make it legitimate? Does that make the feeling itself legitimate? Shit no.

      You find trans people “icky.” I find them courageous and brilliant. And I find transgendered bodies to be beautiful – a testament to the diversity of creation, as well as to an individual’s ability to mold him- or herself and his or her destiny as he or she sees fit, and not as it happens to please society.

      The only icky thing I see here is your transphobic, neaderthalic attitude. Just because you’re gay doesn’t mean you can’t be a bigot, and you’ve sure proven that for all to see.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      @Andrew

      Thank you for posting. One of my friends is a straight transguy, who has always been upfront with his partners, and guess what? He found love. He’s engaged. So assuming that it’s okay to keep that from someone you supposedly love because they will always reject you

      The honesty is the issue here, not the transsexuality. (For me, at least)

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ralph
      Ralph

      Kian,

      I think you’re missing the point. The trans person should explain him or herself to a partner before dating. It is deceptive to not be honest.

      Yes, a transman may be a “man” to himself and to some others. But that may not be the case to others. They want to date someone who has all of the equipment. Why not just be honest about that give a potential partner a choice? By not giving someone a choice, the transperson is deceiving a partner.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @ Ralph:
      No, you are missing the point. Do you ever have a drink? Have you dyed your hair? Ever plucked eyebrows or sucked in your gut?

      It is little different and it is arrogance to say it is different. No one discloses everything from the first moment. That is what dating is for. It should come up early but I resent the idea that I should have to walk around and say “Hi, my name is Tara, did you know I was born with a prick?”

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      @Tara: Isn’t that lying by omission? Either way you look at it and you can pull every analogy out of your ass you want, it is deceptive, period. At what point should someone disclose to a potential partner that they have HIV, after the first date or second? Or do you just wait until the person has fallen in love with you and then tell them?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      I heard some one try to argue that the article was about the lie, and being decieved. If he had told her about his gender change do you think that she would ever have dated him? Do you think that she would have ever looked his way? The media and the people of society have created a view of transgender people where they are unexceptable. I doubt she would have talked to him again. Also they make a huge dramatic scene about this, and show here looking betrayed and hurt. If she had TRULY loved him she wouldn’t have cared what he used to be. He got the change for a reason and any one that truly loved a person wouldn’t let a thing like that from their past ruin it.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      Here’s the article, if anyone wants to actually read what we’re all getting pissed at each other about

      http://picasaweb.google.com/arinicolebustamante/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCNzCmbitgNTZngE#5393353849432762898

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      @ Ashleyrosee

      If you read the article, she actually found out after he had cheated on her with another girl. He told her the bandages on his chest were from a baseball injury. They were making out by now. I think she deserved to know.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      That’s one thing. It’s fine to break up if he cheated, but to go have an article written about him and people like him is going too far. There was no need for this article to talk about his sexuality much less have a title saying “My boyfriend turned out to be a girl!” So what? Then if you have a problem with it break up, don’t go to a magazine!

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @rhydderch :

      Welcome to hyperbole town….

      Are you really equating Gender Identity with a lethal communicable disease? Unless you can look in a mirror and say to yourself that you have never withheld any fact upon meeting someone then you have no leg to stand on.

      You are right in one thing. Deception is Deception. We all do it every day. Does that make it right? No. Does it make it the right choice at times? Yes. Is it solely the per vu of transgender people? No, don’t be silly.

      Climb off your high horse, skip past the soap box and see where these prejudices come from.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Oh and I read it, she says she would have stayed she loved him so much. But if he had told her BEFORE she became so “in love” I doubt she would have given him another thought. That’s just my opinion

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Forrest
      Forrest

      The hate that killed Brandon Teena is no different from what happened to Matthew Sheppard. This gay man does not understand some of the bigotry spewed at transgender people from other gays.

      What are you so angry about? The transgender members of our community have the same fears we do, just in another dimension of our overall push for equality. I have never had any animus towards Transgender individuals but I did want to educate myself on their particular struggles and goals. So I went to several support group meetings and came away inspired and in awe of their bravery. Reach out instead of lashing out.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emily
      Emily

      Fuck this. I’m just so sick of transphobic bile coming out of the keyboards of certain Queerty commenters…. Try walking a mile in our shoes before you spew your bullshit?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Emily :

      Ditto but What are you going to do, the mod/owner never bothers to say anything against it.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Well I don’t think they can ban negative commentary though. There’s the whole freedom of speech thing and if they let people argue one way they have to let people argue the other way too.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dannyal
      dannyal

      my trans friends, I’m happy you guys are in the LGBT movement.
      I’m a gay man, and I think Terwill is an idiot – please don’t
      let one gay man’s perspective change how you view gay people (he
      seems to be the only gay man posting on this thread).
      I admire the courage of trans people as I think their fight is
      twice harder than gay’s. And we fight for the very same reasons:
      acceptance, tolerance and equality.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      Ashley: I am not comparing gender identity to hiv but I am applying the argument that is being throw around by the pro-deception posters here. You’re saying that someone may lie or rather omit the truth, out of fear of rejection, well that’s the same rationale used by some HIV positive folks. I used that example to illustrate a point and ask the question: At what point does a transgender person come clean with who they really are and at what point does an HIV individual come clean with their illness? I think we can all agree that both call for complete honesty before sexual contact.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      But how many people do you know that accept transgender people for who they are? Not all gay people come out right away, because they are scared. If it were you wouldn’t you be scared? It is easy to sit on the outside and judge what he SHOULD have done. But think what would YOU have done? You’ll never know unless you are in that situation yourself.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Oh and sexuality isn’t spread through sexual activity, unlike HIV.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cinci Chris
      Cinci Chris

      I just want all of the trans people to know that not all gay men are so closed minded and ignorant. While I can’t say I would be physically attracted to a gay FTM, I would certainly respect them and treat them like anyone else, and I can at least empathize with how difficult it must be when you really like someone and know they might turn you away because of your honesty. Most of the comments here are sickening, just sickening– completely elitist and hypocritical. You want people to respect you as a gay man? Respect others who are different as well. For Christ’s sake they teach us that in kindergarten!

      And Terriwill, Terriwill, poor, sad, miserable Terriwill– I’m sorry your friend was hate crimed, but I also have friends who have had similarly terrible things happen to them. Sitting around throwing yourself a pitty party does not make you better than trans people or anyone for that matter. Please do us all a favor and take a close look at your hateful hypocrisy. I hope people treat you like shit for being gay so you can have half a clue how hard life must be to be trans. Seriously, grow the fuck up and educate yourself on modern sexuality before you decide to be so immature and abrasive.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • extrabatteries
      extrabatteries

      17 magazine, really, all these comemnts are about 17 magazine? wow, new internet low reached. its like commenting on some stupid youtube video queerty decided to post. how boring.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      I don’t know any but that doesn’t mean that because prejudice exist for the transgendered that one should resort to deceit. You want to know what I would have done? Well the same thing I did when I was coming out at 15, gone to the GLBYA to find a supportive environment and seek out others like me and not hide my identity.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      And do you really think that every person in that situation is going to be exactly like you? My main point is that this article should never have been published. People cheat all of the time. Why is it that this story made it to the media? I don’t think it would have if he hadn’t been transgender

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      Rhydderch-

      Coming out as a trans person is not as simple as telling someone you’ve got warts in unpleasant places. I wish we lived in a world where it was simple for trans people to explain their situation to their potential partners. Unfortunately, we do not. Many hundreds of trans women are brutalized and murdered by their would-be lovers for the very reason that they “came out” to them. Trans men, while not as often the subject of violence from their partners, can nevertheless become victims of that partner’s male friends or acquaintances, as happened with Brandon Teena. Even when violence isn’t the result, ridicule, humiliation, ostracism, and becoming a social outcast often are.

      As a trans man, I personally make a habit of being honest with my past to my potential romantic interests. I personally would have no desire to be in a relationship with someone I wasn’t 100% sure was supportive of LGBT and specifically transgender dignity anyway. But I am one of a tiny minority of trans people who lives in a safe enough community and is surrounded by a supportive enough network of friends and acquaintances that I can do that without feeling endangered. Very few transpeople, and virtually no trans women, are in that kind of position. Do you really expect trans people to be honest about their past 100% of the time when such honesty puts their very lives at risk?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 7:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      P.S. You suggest that trans folks should find support groups. Well, having grown up in the state of Montana, I can tell you that not a single transgender support group of any kind exists in that state. Literally not a single one. Transgender people are marginalized by their small numbers to a degree that even gay people could not understand. One in ten people is gay. Maybe one in a few thousand is transgender or transsexual. Finding a support group or network is virtually impossible outside of large cities. And gay and lesbian groups can often be even more hostile and dismissive towards transgender people than the general population.

      So much of transphobia stems from simple ignorance about what it’s like to actually be trans in this world. As a gay man (or woman, I don’t know, I apologize if I get that wrong), you assume that the “answer” is as simple for trans people as it is for gays. It isn’t. We are marginalized even by our gay brothers and sisters simply because they decline to try to understand our unique situation as separate from their own.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 8:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Grey
      Grey

      I fully accept the “T” in the LGBT community in part because we are all considered gender nonconformists by the rest of the world at large.

      I once went home with an FTM transman. Like many transmen (and transwomen, for that matter), he had not completed everything “down there.” For many, the surgeries are too expensive and/or the technology isn’t adequate for them to want to do that part of it. And that’s fine. This particular guy was completely upfront about everything beforehand (and a great kisser, btw), and I was curious enough to want to take him home.

      I can’t say it was the best sexual experience for either one of us. I might not be that interested in another sexual encounter with an FTM, but I don’t regret the experience. And given the opportunity, while we might never go home together again, he was a good kisser and I wouldn’t mind making out again.

      I was lucky enough to be born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area. I can’t imagine being gay, much less trans, in Montana (like where Ben grew up) or other isolating areas. To my LGBT brothers and sisters out there: you got guts, but if you wanted to move to SF, NYC, LA, or another major metro area, I wouldn’t blame you. I certainly would.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Em
      Em

      Really? Not one support group in Montana? Google is your friend.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Grey
      Grey

      One other thing. It’s easy to blame the transman, Derek, in the Seventeen magazine article for being deceptive, and saying he should have been honest with the girl from the beginning. I’m sure there are lots of transpeople who’ve found themselves in dangerous situations when their trans-identity was discovered. (Although there are also lots of “trans panic” cases where that was claimed, when in fact it was later proven that the perpetrator had already known, just as there are lots of “gay panic” claims when the encounter was initially completely consensual.)

      But we also need to remember that Derek was just a kid. If you read the article in Seventeen, he talks to the girl afterwards and explains that he was scared, he wanted surgery but had to wait until he was 18 before he could do that. So he was under-age, at least initially. Kids do stupid things out of fear or ignorance or a feeling of being able to get away with things. Lots of gay kids do stupid or risky things, too, especially closeted gay kids, like having unprotected or otherwise dangerous encounters when their hormones drive them to take stupid risks. And sometimes gay kids lie and have sex with someone of the opposite sex, either because of self-denial or needing a cover.

      So yeah, in an ideal world, Derek would have been able to be upfront and honest, and would have found someone interested in him exactly as he was. But he was just a teenager, a scared, lonely kid. Let’s cut him a little slack, shall we?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 8:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      @Ben

      For serious? I’m in Helena. What town are you from?

      And yeah, there’s no resources here.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • YellowRanger
      YellowRanger

      @kian “So you would freak out, huh? Then what would you do? Scream, punch, kick, hit, or be polite and say no thank you?”

      I’d kick them right out, but I’d at least be a gentleman about it…

      Unless they’d had all of the surgeries done, then I might just go ahead with it…I’ve always been a little curious how those faux-penises work.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 9:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      While I understand that raw nerves are being danced on here… I regret the thinking that not wanting to have sex with a Transman makes me transphobic. I also don’t like heavy piercing, and don’t want to fuck a guy with a pierced dick. So I am piercephobic. And I don’t like people with bad breath. So I am halliotosis phobic. Very few men under about 35 attract me. So I am youth phobic, too. I have never been attracted to an Algerian nomad either.

      As far as our politics “other” is “Other” to me, queer is queer.. and we are all just trying to live satisfying and useful lives, right? Membership in my community– totally. Welcome, thankyou for being here. Pass the potato salad. Membership in my bed? No– I wouldn’t want a woman going down on me, nor a Transman. Just a bio-man. Sorry– it’s what I like. But that is not the same thing as disparaging someone’s rights or not wanting them on my team. I would feel very violated if I was deceived sexually.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 9:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dianne
      Dianne

      I find it very interesting that Kian takes such great pains to point out that he is a gay transman. He may not realize it, but he is living proof of why the “T” should never have been added to the “GLB”. Sexual orientation is fundamentally different from gender and one does not determine the other. You can be a male and turn out gay, straight or bi. You can be born female and turn out gay, straight, or bi. You can be trans male and turn out gay, straight or bi. And you can be trans femeal and turn out to be gay straight or bi. Gender is a separate beast from sexual orientation and any sexual orientation outcome is possible in any gender. So if they are independent things, on what logical basis is a gender-based group injected into the LGB movement?

      Now that doesn’t mean we hate trans people. It doesn’t mean that we can’t ally ourselves with them on certain issues, just as we do with the women’s movement or the labor movement. But it makes absolutely no sense to graft on a gender-based group onto a minority that is defined by sexual orientation.

      Bigots may lump us all together, but I don’t think it makes sense to start defining ourselves and our movement by what bigots think.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 9:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @YellowRanger:
      Gee, I bet the transmen just get so excited knowing that they are a curiosity for you. Maybe afterward you can throw peanuts at them.

      Guh.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 9:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ YellowRanger
      A straight person, by your logic, would be well within their rights to question (and therefore belittle) how your faux gay ‘sex’ works. How does that whole not having a vagina involved work out for you, hmm? You must tell us all about it. We all love to hear about a good freak show.

      And by the by, my ‘faux’ penis works just fine. I’ve got two of them in my dresser drawer, and unlike your model, mine can stay hard all night long.

      @ GirlyQ
      I am originally from Bozeman. I didn’t “come out” or transition until I was away from home at college, though. My mom is the one who discovered the lack of support groups in Montana when she was trying to find a support group for parents of trans people. No such thing in the land of the Big Sky.

      @Fitz
      What I’m curious about is your apparent belief that you could tell if you’re attracted to a trans guy in the first place. How the hell would you know if you’re attracted to one or not? Odds are they aren’t going to come up and tell you that they’re trans. I get hit on by lots of girls and gay boys who haven’t the faintest clue that I wasn’t born biologically male. No one I meet on the street has even the slightest inclination that I’m not 100% male. The only people who know that I’m trans are the ones I tell. So I guess my question is, do you ask all guys to see their genitals before you decide if you’re attracted to them? Do you only decide to have sex with someone once you’ve seen them naked?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      @Ben

      I don’t blame you for not coming out in Montana, man. It’s hard for any stripe of queer people up here. Just being a lesbian is a big ridiculous deal up here, and my friend who transitioned to male while here had a hugely difficult time. He was incredibly brave and just did it so he could live an authentic life, but he did leave as soon as he graduated. And I don’t blame him.

      I hope your mom finds some sort of support :(

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      @Ben- Yes…as a matter of fact… if I am going to have sexual contact with someone outside of my relationship, it will be in a sex play-space.. and yes– my time is short; I totally check out the goods before I commit. I don’t care how vulgar that is to some people. 1) I don’t enjoy certain things, 2) my outside-play time is short, and 3) I would rather that we all had a good time or no time at all.

      I think that you are commenting about being attract-to. I am commenting about actual sexual contact with. If I was in a back room, and a guy went down on me, and I found out that he was FtM, honestly– I wouldn’t like it at all.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      rhydderch: I never addressed the deception issue personally because I don’t think there is one way to go about it that works all the time for everyone. I approach each person differently when it comes to disclosure, but I certainly wouldn’t wait till we were three seconds away from getting it on, because of people like YellowRanger. Although, I have drunkenly made out with men in clubs and they never knew the difference, but we all make stupid decisions, don’t we?

      Dianne: The reason I stated so many times that I am a gay transman is because other posters were telling me that I am not gay because I am trans. I am both and they are inextricably linked, just like your gender and sexuality are. I can’t discuss one without discussing the other, can you? I never asked for gay people to defend me and stick up for me, and yet I am being attacked for “hitching a ride” on to the gay caboose. Trans people are stuck between rocks and hard places and then we get blamed for being there.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dmitri
      dmitri

      Dianne- I don’t think it’s only bigots that “lump us together.” We as a community all in some way defy societal norms in terms of gender roles. For a lot of us, it’s our sexual orientation that is in defiance to societal gender roles; for others, it’s their gender identity not matching up with how our society says they should based on how they were born. For all of us, this part of our identity that defies societal gender roles is an innate part of us that we did not choose. I think that’s why many LGB’s in our movement embrace and empathize with the T’s. At least that’s how I feel, and why I do identify with and fully support trans people as members of the queer community, even though I am not trans.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ Kian

      “Trans people are stuck between rocks and hard places and then we get blamed for being there.”

      Yes, exactly. This is what pisses me off so much about all the bizarre anti-trans sentiment coming from LGB folks. Most LGB folks I know are supportive of trans people, even if they don’t really get it. But it always surprises me that some of the most hateful vitriol against trans folks can come from LGB people. Like LGB folks, we trans folk are marginalized by “mainstream” society for being freaks and sexual minorities. We get stuck in the LGB box of “sexual deviants” by mainstream society against our will. And then a vocal minority of bitter gays hold it against us? WTF? As I stated before, I have passionately fought for LGB rights and dignity throughout my entire lifetime, since I was old enough to understand what “gay” actually was. I never saw myself as gay, but I thought it was important to fight oppression anyway. In fact, trans folks have always been at the heart of the LGB rights movement. The Stonewall club wasn’t raided because it was a “gay club” per se, but it was specifically targeted because it was a hub for drag queens and cross-dressers.

      So it is mind-boggling to me how some gay people can be so hateful and dismissive towards transgender people. I have never known a single trans person who hasn’t been a vocal ally for LGB rights, whether or not they personally identified as LGB. Some gays seem to think they can dismiss us because we are a minority of the LGBT movement, or they think we give them a “bad name.” (I could say the same thing about some gays, given that I live a very “morally upright” and milquetoast lifestyle as an average guy by most standards. But I don’t. Period.)

      But in the end, trans folk are inextricably tied to the LGB(T) movement. The bitter old gays who hold our marginalized place in the movement against us had better get over themselves, because true equality and equity of people of all gender identities and sexual orientations will never come unless it comes for us all.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tina
      Tina

      GirlyQ and Ben: I’m here in Montana too :P in Billings. There’s no support groups but there’s a few of us, but we’re hard to get out of the woodwork sometimes.

      Also…let me get this straight…if I’m trans, and you ask ME out, you expect me NOT to tell you until the date. And then after, you’d freak out? Well what the ever popular catch-22…

      Anyways. This place is too transphobic, no one will ever listen…but we’re here, we’re queer, and we deserve protections from getting unjustly fired, killed, or ridiculed just like everyone else.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 10:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      It was a really bad article from this transperson’s point of view.

      And it’s kinda funny, some of my biggest supporters have been fellow queer folk as well some of greatest discrimination I’ve gotten has been from LGB folk. Cisgenderism is everywhere I guess. Tarawill displays it perfectly in thread.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      “And yes, her boyfriend DIE lie about his bandages, etc, and not come out to her as transsexual, a necessary thing if you’re planning to be intimate with someone.”

      Cool, then cisgender people should tell any perspective date what’s in their pants before doing anything, we wouldn’t any misunderstandings would we?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      GirlyQ:

      “I would have no trouble dating an MTF girl if, you know, I was attracted to them. But I deserve to know. I’m a mover and shaker in the queer community here, if everything else is going well, I probably won’t care if you’re trans. But if I had been dating someone for a bit, and we were hitting it off, and they never told me, I would be angry. I’m sorry, but that’s quite a big deal. If I work with you, keep your birth sex to yourself. I don’t care. It’s none of my business.
      If we’re dating…I deserve to know.”

      Girly Q: if it isn’t such a big deal and you don’t “have a problem dating a MTF girl” then why do you have this burning need to know? Like you said it doesn’t matter, think about the contradiction in this statement you and others are making here. You’re are basically saying:

      “It doesn’t matter that you are trans; but I need to know!!!!”

      Why do you need to know if it doesn’t matter? All I want to do is forget how I was born and move on with my life, I don’t want to rehash it with everyone I make out with or date on a not-long-term-basis. I mean, if a person and I are living together and really intimate, I’m going to tell them, but if not, then I won’t unless I need to.

      Do you disclose every single part of your medical history to all of your dates? Don’t you see the double standard here?

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • YellowRanger
      YellowRanger

      “A straight person, by your logic, would be well within their rights to question (and therefore belittle) how your faux gay ‘sex’ works. How does that whole not having a vagina involved work out for you, hmm? You must tell us all about it. We all love to hear about a good freak show.”

      I’d gladly demonstrate if they were so perplexed by it.

      But then anal sex isn’t all that hard to figure out.

      How a dick that was jerry-rigged out of a toe and some old skin works, however, begs more than a few questions.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      To all the trans people who have posted on this thread:
      Until today, I kinda didn’t want your “T” attached on to the “GLB” letters. After reading your posts today I really have decided you are a totally separate catagory of persons. You talk about my posts, you guys/girls? simply are trying to ram your causes onto the Gay bandwagon in an attempt for acceptance. Sorry the poo spewing from your posts is disgusting. My main post was (for the fifth time, I guess you lose some brain cells in the transition) stated clearly that if you change gender and then sleep with the opposite gender you are a straight person. And I have seen many interviews with trans couples who identify as such: A STRAIGHT COUPLE. My original posts said those people should not be included under the GLB tag because once again THEY ARE STRAIGHT. That certain group was who I was saying should be excluded from our cause. Obviousley your community does not see any difference, if they used to have a dick and now have a vagina or vice versa you feel they are part of the Gay cause. After seeing the vile postings from your community today you can all go to hell. I watched my best friend DIE FROM A BEATING BY NINE PUNKS WHO BROKE EVERY BONE IN HIS BODY, A 19 YEAR OLD KID WHO WAS THE NICEST PERSON ANYONE COULD EVER MEET. He wasn’t “hate crimed” HE WAS MURDERED FOR BEING GAY. And as a Gay person I have to accept that straight sub human scum are going to look for any reason to want to hate us. As stated the “ick” factor these people respond to is multiplied when they can’t even figure if someone is a he or a she. Your ramming you community into our cause is a tremendous source of this crap. And by the postings I see in this thread you don’t deserve to be included in the GAY struggle. Create your own groups and lobby on your own and defend you own damm battles leave the Gay community to fight our own battles……….You are not part of ours………..

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      This gay person thinks Terrwill should shut it.

      Oct 27, 2009 at 11:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GirlyQ
      GirlyQ

      @Kropotkin

      I deserve to know because it has so much to do with your history, how you got where you are, and who you are. The same reason I tell my dates about religious background, my family, usually we talk about when we ‘knew’. But on the first date, if we won’t be sleeping together, you’re under no obligation. A few dates in…yeah, I want to know. It may seem like a totally indefensible position for you, but I’ve broken up with a girl because she neglected to tell me that her family lived like an hour away, and the real reason she didn’t want me to meet them is because she wasn’t out to them. I could have dealt with that knowledge. I couldn’t deal with her thinking it was okay to keep that from me. Your Mileage May Vary, but all I can tell you is what is important to me.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 12:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch [Different person #1 using similar name]

      No.76 Ben wrote “do you ask all guys to see their genitals before you decide if you’re attracted to them? Do you only decide to have sex with someone once you’ve seen them naked?”

      That was direct at Fitz but I can tell you’ve never been on Adam4Adam…the showing of the genitals is almost required prior to a hook up

      Oct 28, 2009 at 12:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emily
      Emily

      Rhydderch: C’mon, that’s the most ridiculous counterargument I’ve ever heard. How often do people on Adam4Adam show their genitals to prove they’re not trans?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 12:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Emily: I was trying to make a joke

      Oct 28, 2009 at 12:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      Terrrawill:
      “Until today, I kinda didn’t want your “T” attached on to the “GLB” letters.”

      If you didn’t get the message earlier: nobody really cares what you think, and you sure as hell don’t get veto power over who is included here, trans people have been included in the gay community since the beginning despite efforts to push us out by the likes of you. Some you might want to give up on that one.

      Now go be a special little flower and enjoy your massive fail somewhere else, you’re just embarrassing yourself at this point.

      GirlyQ:

      “A few dates in…yeah, I want to know. It may seem like a totally indefensible position for you, but I’ve broken up with a girl because she neglected to tell me that her family lived like an hour away, and the real reason she didn’t want me to meet them is because she wasn’t out to them”

      I find that reasonable, I wouldn’t date someone who was in a closet either. I might have been unfair in the my post. A lot of the time when people say “I want to know….” they mean in a way that they expect you to introduce yourself “Hello, I’m Michelle and I was born with penis…” type of way. I think it’s very YMMV, and I don’t pass much judgment on other trans people for not disclosing because I’ve known the horrible responses they risk, it’s a very personal thing and I think it’s situational where there is no hard fast rule.

      But yeah, I know that if it’s someone I’m serious about, then I’m gonna disclose so I can understand your position surrounding that, it seems pretty reasonable compared to what some other people sometimes expect.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 1:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Terrwill: I am now convinced that you don’t actually read anyone else’s posts. You keep posting the same dribble and ignoring any evidence that contradicts your belief that trans people are straight. I repeat, once more, that I am not straight. Why exactly can you not accept that some trans people are straight and some are gay? So you watched a documentary in which a trans couple describe themselves as straight… congratulations, you actually managed to stomach the ick factor for 90 minutes, I applaud you for your willingness to suffer. But I hate to break it to you, I am not a part of that trans couple you love to talk about. I am a different person. I am gay. I am trans. Accept it and move on with your life. Please.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 1:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      correction. “dribble” should be “drivel”.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 1:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SoylentDiva
      SoylentDiva

      Gee, has anyone considered that perhaps some TG individuals don’t disclose their status right off because;
      1. That’s not exactly something you talk about when you first meet someone–or even when you ask them on a date
      2. They’re afraid the person might react like a total asshole (like the young woman in the Seventeen story did, and the way so many of you are here)
      WTF people?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 1:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ralph
      Ralph

      Tara,

      Sorry, I call bullshit. It is lying and it is far more deceptive that changing hair color.

      By not disclosing the facts, you’re lying. If you really cared about someone then you would be honest and risk rejection. Rejection is part of life, dating in particular.

      It’s not a question of societal brainwashing. It’s a question of some trans people putting their desires over the needs and desires of others. Why do you have the right to deny someone else the right to informed consent? Why are your rights more important than someone else’s?

      A straight woman who wants to date and marry a man with a working penis who can father a child naturally shouldn’t have to find out after kissing or after sexual contact that her partner is trans. That’s just wrong. Again, that’s about one person’s desires and needs trumping another person’s.

      Like it or not, you have no more right to expect sexual acceptance than any other human being. People have a right to say yes and no to potential partners. By not disclosing, a trans person taking away that right.

      If a partner expects to have children naturally, wouldn’t you explain that you can’t have children? How would you explain infertility.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 2:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Ralph: so would you be excited to learn that your boyfriend could carry a child that is your own, instead of adopting (as gays are forced to do), because with an FTM that is a possibility. Sadly, this is not a selling point for most gay men I’ve met. And exactly when should I tell people that I have no penis?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 3:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Laurence
      Laurence

      As the only Asexual person on this post, and yes there’s a thing such as Asexual, I’m shocked at the lack of solidarity within the queer community, notice I say queer and not LGBT community because it’s not only just lesbian, bisexual, gay, and trans in the community.

      To say that one group is less important of should be eradicated from the movement in a mistake. Many people, of all race/ethnicity, gender, sexuality, and cultural backgrounds fight for equality each and everyday. Instead of providing an addition article talking about trans issue, seventeen magazine neglected to do that and hence not chaos ensues.

      I agree with both signs on the perspective of identifying yourself as a transperson. while it doesn’t have to be the first time you meet them, it should happen within a reasonable time if you considered a serious relationship with someone.

      As an Asexual, who is both attracted to men, women, and trans outside the realms of physical intimacy where do I fit? If we used the Gender Binary system, I wouldn’t, so what happens to me? What group would I belong to? I help out in the LGBT movement for the same as everyone else. I’m different from the mainstream society and I demand respect for all and respect for myself.

      I’m deeply sorry for all those lives lost, but if we continue to have intercommunity problems, no wonder society doesn’t give a hoot about us.

      Seventeen article, while I do not applaud them, show exactly how trans folks are discriminated against on a daily basis, just like the rest of us. We have to get over own inner demons and fight for a just cause. There can no longer be “Equality for All!- except for [group of your choice] That is just plain idiotic

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ralph
      Ralph

      Kian,

      You shy away from the notion of informed consent? Why? Are you hoping that once someone gets to the bedroom he/she won’t be surprised? Some may say whatever but others may be surprised, shocked, or hurt. Right?

      Why is your right to choose greater than someone else’s? You continue to ignore the fact that many potential partners would feel that you deceived them.

      If you are going to date someone, you should be frank and tell her/him. Gay men would assume that their partner wouldn’t carry a child. Right? But, most gay men, would also expect that their partner had a penis. Most gay men like penises and testicles. Right? Why would that person’s expectations be less worthy than yours?

      Again, it’s not a question of every person you meet on the street having to know your business. But if you are going to have an intimate relationship, you should disclose the fact that you don’t have a penis and allow that person a chance to decide for him/herself.

      I just saw a program where a transman lied to a woman and slept with her. The woman was a virgin. The man used a dildo. The woman’s right of consent was blurred. The man kept talking about his feelings and desires. He never spoke about hers. What she wanted wasn’t that important to him. Her expectations didn’t matter.

      Wouldn’t disclosing be the best way to prevent later confrontation in many cases? Why pretend that it won’t?

      What’s been your experience of not disclosing the truth to a would-be lover?

      I keep coming back to the fact that every thing you say is about you and your needs and desires but little is said about those of a potential partner. That bothers me.

      Again, I don’t think that you have an obligation to disclose information to anyone other than a potential partner. Boss. Acquaintance. Postal carrier. None of their business.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 8:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      · Kropotkin: In case you haven’t been reading the posts here almost every one is by a Trans person. You guys/girls? are all on board the fight here. Notice there are maybe one or two bitter old queens who are defendiing your community? Its like I said (I don’t know how to adress you: Brother or Sister????) You and your kind have tried to shove your community into the Gay struggle. Unitl this thread I never gave much thought to it, and now that I seeing the vile poo spewing out of your kind I see what a negative influence you are to the community. And to the Gays I have asked to view these posts they all have the same reaction as mine. Your kind are simply attempting to force your commmunity into the Gay rights struggle. As I have stated before your “indecision” as to who or what you want to fuck has a negative impact on our community. You have shown to be a bitter, vile, group of people in these threads. I simple made a very simple statement: IF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF STRAIGHT, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO ATTACH YOURSELVES TO THE GAY RIGHTS BATTLES. And once again I am sorry your fake cocks and vaginas freak out the majority of people. You spew the crap you have been posting here and you want the Gay community to embrace you???? Sorry start your own organizations, movements, and fundraisers. You don’t deserve our assistance………..

      Oct 28, 2009 at 9:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ralph
      Ralph

      Terrwill,

      Ugh! You should read a history book. Much of what you’re saying is hateful. “Vile poo”?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 9:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal(the original)
      sal(the original)

      i think the girl has a right to know the truth….maybe the article was written poorly??but i think she deserved to know the truth

      Oct 28, 2009 at 10:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ Terrwill

      Did trans folks kill your friend?

      No. And trans folks get killed a lot more often than gay people do.

      Did trans folks steal “your” movement?

      No. And as I stated before, trans folks have been part of the LGBT movement from the beginning. There would be no movement at all if it weren’t for angry drag queens sick of getting pushed around by cops. Who do you think rioted at Stonewall? Why do you think Stonewall was targeted in the first place?

      So why don’t you get the fuck out of OUR LGBT movement and go start your own “ME, MYSELF, and I” movement.

      That seems to be all you care about, you sick jerk. I’m sorry your friend died. But that doesn’t give you the right to hate and belittle people who had nothing to do with his death.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 11:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dannyal
      dannyal

      Terwill, you should shut the fuck up by now – seriously. You sounded like an old man who’s no longer coherent and relevant. Trans is and will always be a part of the queer community – and that includes the gay community – accept it and get over it. You DO NOT speak on behalf of the gay community – I actually wish you are NOT part of the gay community with you being so fucking stupid and closed-minded. And get this: a person CAN be trans AND gay AT THE SAME TIME. Is that too hard a concept for you to understand????

      One more thing, you kept bringing up your best friend/lover died from being bashed by straight people as you claimed. That’s too bad and I feel sorry: for him, NOT you – not that I felt compelled to sympathize for you, anyway. But that doesn’t give you the right to be so hateful towards everyone who identifies themselves as straight. How about not generalizing straight people as a gay-basher? I’m sure you wouldn’t like straight people generalizing gay people as stupid and ignorant like you, would you?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 12:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      Ralph: I am all for informed consent. I try very hard to walk that fine line between meeting my needs for safety and the needs of the person I’m interested in. I don’t want them to feel that I’ve lied to them because thats definitely not the way to start a healthy relationship.

      Honestly, I don’t expect to be accepted by gay men as a love partner, because it freaks most people out. Most gay men say no when they find out and are not willing to be open-minded and try new things. But there are exceptions. As I’ve stated before, I understand that gay men want the whole package, so to speak. I get that, because I also do too. But my reality is that I am not the whole package to most people and I am forced to find a way to happiness that is much more difficult than the average person. Do you see how complicated this whole mess is? The answers are not simple, as this “article” in Seventeen would have you believe.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      Kian: I am not trying to be glib here but couldn’t you just date a straight man and just play the “tom boy” angle?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @ Ralph:

      Call bullshit all you want. You can define how it would effect you for you all you want but that does not make it moreso, deception is deception. Ever let someone think you were straight, same thing. EVER. Parents, friends, lovers anyone, same goddamned thing. If you want to create levels to allow yourself forgiveness, be my guest, Does not make it true.

      Rejection is a part of life, dating in particular. Being beaten to death with a frying pan, is however, not.

      Informed consent is called DATING. Wherein you learn things about your partner. My rights are not more important, they are however equal too. I have the right to not put myself at risk.

      So if a man or a woman is barren they must disclose that right way? Kinda presumptuous. Working penis Hmmm (nice subtle code wording and hidden bigotry). There are a million and one things about a person we cannot tell by looking at them. Any person who’s partner has left them after “Discovering they were GAY!” knows that.

      I am not taking way anyone right, unless giving them a chance to be prejudice is a right…..about that, should we all wear armbands, maybe with pink triangles on them….waiiiiiit. That has been done already.

      Ummmmm Well, if my partner wants to have kids I would say….Hey, are we like, committed and long term? Cause I am infertile. So is my dad. He had a vasectomy.

      Your arguments don’t hold water. They are coded bigotry.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emily
      Emily

      Rhydderch: so, after all you’ve said before about wanting trans people to be honest to their dates about who they are, you’re now suggesting we lie to them about our identity? Give me a break, now I see how the hypocrisy just oozes out of you.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Toronto Lover
      Toronto Lover

      The article may be insensitive, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that if you have a secret as large as having had a sex change, it should be something put out in the open as early as possible.

      I’m a gay men who is attracted to bio men, however there are people out there with less restricted views of gender and beauty. Just like us gay men have a narrow group of people to find love with, the trans community has an even smaller group and should work with what they got.

      Identifying as something doesn’t mean you actually are that something. Everyone must find someone who accepts every aspect of their being. Including the difference between the gender they are and the gender they identify as.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ Rhydderch

      Apparently you don’t understand the whole “gender identity” issue.

      How would you feel if someone asked you to stop being gay, just play the whole “straight woman” angle?

      There are actually societies that force their gay men to undergo gender transition surgery to make them into “straight women.”

      As a gay man, you ought to understand that your being attracted to men does not make you any less of a man. You wouldn’t pretend to be a woman just because most men are interested in women. Gender identity is just as integral a part of a trans person’s sense of being as it is for you.

      @ Kian

      A lot of gay trans guys find relationship success when they meet other gay trans guys. Strange but true. But that’s not to say that all cisgendered gay guys don’t want to be with a trans guy. Several of my gay acquaintances, all of whom knew me before my transition, have expressed attraction to me now post-transition. I’m not into guys so obviously it’s not going to happen. But there are definitely smart, attractive gay guys out there who aren’t turned off by trans guys.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ Toronto Lover
      “the trans community has an even smaller group and should work with what they got.”

      That is patently untrue. The vast majority of straight trans guys I know are in happy and successful relationships with straight women. In fact a number of them are now married and raising children. I myself am dating a young woman who has always identified as straight and has always been attracted to men, and our relationship is perfectly normal by her standards. I also know a number of lesbian trans women who have found relationship success with cisgender lesbians.

      It seems the people who have trouble accepting the idea of a trans lover are the ones who are the most neurotically obsessed with gender and sexuality norms… ie men, whether gay or straight. For some reason, much of male sexuality seems to revolve around either obsession with or revulsion against male genitalia.

      That’s just my observation, however. And I have known a small number of men, straight and gay, for whom that generalization does not hold true.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Toronto Lover:
      Ohh of course! We should work with our tiny margin….thanks for telling me.

      And of course just because you identify as gay does not mean you ARE…..you are just confused….why don’t you go to this exodus meeting and they can tell you all about it.

      Deny my identity don’t cry when your’s is denied.

      Ever wonder how the oppressed become the oppressor? Just look.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rhydderch
      rhydderch

      I don’t know a single trans person nor anyone in Kian’s position. She’s a biological woman who lives her life as a man and she’s attracted to men. It’s a quite a conundrum. I’m no psychiatrist or expert in gender identity, but if she’s a biological woman and attracted to men, why not just date a man and go into therapy? It’s just a question and not meant to be hurtful or demeaning to anyone, just seems like a simple solution.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emily
      Emily

      Rhydderch: First off, fuck you for your insensitive use of pronouns. Kian identifies as a gay trans MAN, you should be using MALE pronouns, regardless of whatever sex he was tagged as at birth.

      Second, most of us have tried that, myself included (switch the pronouns around as I’m a trans woman). Trying to live in society as your birth sex, for a trans person, only leads to anxiety and depression, and an all-around dysfunctional and miserable life. Does this sound any bit familiar to you? Kinda like when a gay person tries to be straight, perhaps? So you see, we’re all in this together.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Toronto Lover: Having a gender change isn’t exactly the most accepted thing in our society. It’s more acceptable to be gay or lesbian then transgender.
      Rhydderch: Therapy can’t fix everything, it isn’t MAGIC.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @rhydderch: Whoah there. Have you ever read a book, not just about Transpeople, but like, ever?

      See what Emily said but I want to go one step further. You keep saying things like “It’s just a question and not meant to be hurtful or demeaning to anyone, just seems like a simple solution” but if you stop and think about it does it not make sense that it would be both hurtful and demeaning. The implication is that one. Obviously he has not tried hard enough and two that you know what is best.

      Think about what you are saying, how you are using language you would never want to be used on you.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dianne
      Dianne

      I can understand why a group that accounts for maybe .001% of the population would love to attach itself to a group that accounts for 3-5% of the population. But from the LGB standpoint, it makes absolutely no logical or political sense to attach “T” to LGB.

      A few people have asserted here that it is not up to Terriwill to decide who is in the movement and who isn’t. Fair enough, but then who does decide? And who decided on my behalf that suddenly “T” would appear after LGB? I can’t recall voting on it. I can’t recall a meaningful debate about it. It just happened on the the fiat of some unelected, overpaid, overly PC professional activists. And now if you challenge the status quo that was imposed on you, you are accused of being insensitive.

      Sorry, but we should not be defining ourselves as a movement of anyone and everyone who is not the norm. If we define our movement based on that logic, we should start including every contra-normal sexual paraphilia, fetish, and every sexual condition, from delayed puberty to menapause, known to humankind.

      We are a group defined by a specific characteristic, sexual orientation. Not gender. Not cross-dressing. Not anything else.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dianne
      Dianne

      I can understand why a group that accounts for maybe .001% of the population would love to attach itself to a group that accounts for 3-5% of the population. But from the LGB standpoint, it makes absolutely no logical or political sense to attach “T” to LGB.

      A few people have asserted here that it is not up to Terriwill to decide who is in the movement and who isn’t. Fair enough, but then who does decide? And who decided on my behalf that suddenly “T” would appear after LGB? I can’t recall voting on it. I can’t recall a meaningful debate about it. It just happened on the the fiat of some unelected, overpaid, overly PC professional activists. And now if you challenge the status quo that was imposed on you, you are accused of being insensitive.

      Sorry, but we should not be defining ourselves as a movement of anyone and everyone who is not the norm. If we define our movement based on that logic, we should start including every contra-normal sexual paraphilia, fetish, and every sexual condition, from delayed puberty to menopause, known to humankind.

      We are a group defined by a specific characteristic, sexual orientation. Not gender. Not cross-dressing. Not anything else.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Dianne: It is not something that any one person decides. THEY, the others, the “normal” people decided. The masses decided. Like it or not we are ALL in this together.

      You ARE being insensitive. You want to oppress. You are not the first, does not make you a bad person. But you ARE what you Are.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Dianne: Oh okay so now it’s only about the “GLB” and the “T” doesn’t count? If you’re all after the same goal why should they not be able to be included? That’s not fair to them. You can’t shove a group of people out of the group of people that are being discrinated. How closed-minded can you be? You can’t ask for your own rights and deny others.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Creed
      Creed

      I’ll be the first person to say that I don’t know anything about gender identity and if I can be candid without being jumped on, it strikes me as odd and worthy of psychiatric intervention. For someone to goes so far as to surgically alter their body so that it’s more in line with their mental perception is a bit nutty. Suppose someone felt as though they were meant to not have any limbs and goes to a doctor to have their limbs removed. Is that ok, would we think that person was insane? So then take a perfectly healthy man but he identifies as a woman. This guy then goes to a DR to have his genitals turned inside out, silicon pumped in his chest, and starts taking female hormones but for the sake of political correctness we’re going to say that that person is well within their right. To look in the mirror and deny the image you see, to deny your gender is mad. No matter how you choose to mutilate your exterior, you’re still the same person inside.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      “I don’t know a single trans person nor anyone in Kian’s position. She’s a biological woman who lives her life as a man and she’s attracted to men. It’s a quite a conundrum. I’m no psychiatrist or expert in gender identity, but if she’s a biological woman and attracted to men, why not just date a man and go into therapy? It’s just a question and not meant to be hurtful or demeaning to anyone, just seems like a simple solution.”

      Then you don’t know many trans people. Gay trans men are all over. Instead of sitting there and arguing why don’t you just sit back and listen to trans people instead of trying to impose what you think is better for them on us.

      Seriously, asking a trans person to not transition to get around transphobia is like asking a cisgender gay man to transition to female so they can date men and not be subject to homophobia, because “it’s easier”. It’s degrading and insensitive to suggest that kind of action in both both cases.

      Sorry, trans people don’t live their lives so it can be “easier” for you or to make you comfortable. Not going to happen.

      You should try harder to educate yourself if you really do give a shit, but I suspect that you don’t judging by what you’ve said here.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Creed: Ok, because you stated ignorance I wont jump down your throat. Jut allow me to try something. And side note. We, transsexual people, go thru therapy we HAVE to.

      Ok Here goes:
      I’ll be the first person to say that I don’t know anything about gay people and if I can be candid without being jumped on, it strikes me as odd and worthy of psychiatric intervention. For someone to goes so far as to claim they were born attracted to the same sex is a bit nutty. Suppose someone felt as though they were meant to have sex with animals. Is that ok, would we think that person was insane? So then take a perfectly healthy man he likes to have sex with other men. This guy then goes out finds a boyfriend and has “unnatural” sex with him but for the sake of political correctness we’re going to say that that person is well within their right. To look in the mirror and deny the image you see, to deny your god given sexuality is mad. No matter how you choose to exchange fluids, you’re still a straight person inside.

      See how that sounds? Get my drift?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ben
      Ben

      @ rhydderch
      If you knew shit about shit you would know that Gender Identity Disorder is a psychological condition and that the only treatment is gender transition through hormone therapy and/or surgery.

      We, as trans folks who are forced to undergo “therapy” to make sure we aren’t nuts before getting hormones, know a lot more about this issue than you do. Why don’t you go get a clue, do five seconds worth of research, before spouting your ignorant opinions?

      You’re right, you are no psychologist. You’re just a certified asswipe. Go STFU.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Creed: That is totally unrealistic. No one has ever had that want in their life. Gender change is something that has effected a group of people. It’s not just one person that has felt this way and it is a feeling that has actually occured within people. Who are you to judge? People may not identify the same way you do but you have no right to deny them their own identity. I don’t tell you what you can and cannot be. Besides there are a lot of things that therapy can’t fix. So please don’t go around saying that they shouldn’t be able to, when that is what feels natural to them. Maybe I should tell you you shouldn’t breath.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      Diane:

      “Sorry, but we should not be defining ourselves as a movement of anyone and everyone who is not the norm. If we define our movement based on that logic, we should start including every contra-normal sexual paraphilia, fetish, and every sexual condition, from delayed puberty to menopause, known to humankind.”

      We’ve been apart of the community since long before Stonewall, go out and educate yourself on some gay history, I’m not going to do that for you.

      Otherwise, you only seem willing to fight for your own freedom, yet you’re asking straight and trans allies to support you and care about your issues, but then you don’t care when someone who faces the similar oppression asks for your support and then try to distance yourself from us. Seems like pretty entitled and self-centered behavior to me.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • naghanenu
      naghanenu

      Hi Everyone,

      Im sorry to have offended trans people but this is my reality.
      I just cant date a tranny or even think of having a relationship with one. Ill explain.

      Im straight. I like my boys. A transman is not a man as far as i know.. its a girl who had an operation and took some hormones so she can represent herself as a man. If we are absolutely honest with our selves that is what a transman is. The same situation for a transwoman.

      Now if you get your plumbing fixed to act and move a penis that might actually be interesting..but still gross me out to a point i wont let you come near me sexually because in my mind im dating a chick with gender issues.

      Transpeople need to wake up and realise some people have a lot of issues with them and that is why upfront honesty is best so the person can let you know before feelings get involved

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Naghanenu: Well then good for you. But just because you don’t want to DATE someone with a gender change doesn’t mean you shouldn’t ACCEPT them and respect how they feel.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • naghanenu
      naghanenu

      @Ashley..how exactly am i being disrespectful

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • candycorn
      candycorn

      Interesting thread…so much transphobia. I for one will admit that I am a gay man, born male, and I have definitely been attracted to and courted a transman before. There was no question in my mind that he was a man, and a sexy one at that…it seemed perfectly natural. What seemed unnatural was the idea that he had ever lived as female.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Okay let me rephrase because you are misunderstanding me. So you personally don’t want to some one with a gender change. Well fine no one asked you to. But all people should still respect them and accept who they are. Get that?

      Oct 28, 2009 at 5:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @naghanenu Simple. You are denying our identity. You make blanket statements and call it “my reality”. But other peoples issues with me are not my problem. Your bigotry is not my problem.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Creed
      Creed

      So it’s clear that you guys are only interested in having one big pity party because me and other come to this board not to start fights but to really have an exchange of ideas. I’m not a bigot, I just don’t understand Gender Identity Disorder. It’s not as simple as reading a wikipedia article and calling it a day either. I can only share my perspective as a gay man. I can’t fathom the idea that I was born the wrong sex and then altering my body to fit that idea. But you know we’re brothers and sisters and I simply want to hear what the trans community thinks and hear your experience. I’m not trying to disrespect anyone but I feel thought I could be candid with you guys but all the name calling seems to be from the trans folks at the glb folks.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @ Creed : You asked a question I answered it, you don’t feel like addressing me? Also, funny how we in the LBGT community have no problem calling people out on bigotry, but suddenly freak out when it is pointed back at us. Anyone can be a bigot. The person who is not a bigot is the person who learns.

      And on that topic. You say “I’m not trying to disrespect anyone but I feel thought I could be candid with you guys but all the name calling seems to be from the trans folks at the glb folks.”

      Couple points on that, to us, being treated like our identity is not valid IS name calling, call me a boy and you are negating my identity.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emily
      Emily

      Creed: your original post came across as something like “I’m not a racist but I think black people should sit at the back of the bus and leave the front for us whites.” You put out a blanket statement about trans people that was extremely insulting and offensive to our community (how would you take it if you were called ‘nutty’ because you are gay?), and you expect us to give you sympathy? Have you also forgotten that over half the comments in this thread have also been vile insults thrown at us? And yet you expect us to not be upset at your statements. Give me a f’ing break! Perhaps if you honestly wanted to understand GID and hear what we had to say, you would have asked us questions respectfully instead.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Okay well I myself am not transgender, but have met some one that is. It’s not trans against glb. It’s opinions clashing. I don’t think that one group of people deserve to fight for their rights and not believe others should be able to fight for theirs. I have quite a few friends that are in the glb category, and i wouldn’t condone that kind of attitude in them either. I think that they should have all the same rights, no matter what you think of them.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ralph
      Ralph [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Tara,

      Again, bullshit. You continue to spin things to favor yourself and your needs, discounting those of a potential partner. Trying to hide informing a partner about your history behind a veil of learning about each other called dating, is unfair.

      It’s not bigotry on the part of a person to have certain expectations met. I understand your concerns about safety. They’re valid. But that doesn’t give you the right to ignore other people’s concerns or expectations.

      You have a tough lot in life. I don’t envy it. But, I don’t think that it’s fair of you to expect that every one with whom you are dating would readily accept your trans status. Why put yourself and another in a position of being hurt emotionally?

      As I said to Kian, you keep talking about your desires but you don’t show much consideration or respect for the desires or needs of others.

      You want people to accept you for who you are. I get it. The trans experience is vast. Not all transwomen go through surgery. It would be quite the shock for most men to meet someone who presents as a woman but with all of their clothes off they’re completely male. They like breasts and vaginas.

      Most gay men want a man to have male genitalia. They would be shocked and disappointed to find that their male lover undressed and didn’t have any of the equipment.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Creed
      Creed

      Tara & Emily: I apologize, you ladies are correct – my statement was akin to Carrie Prejean and the infamous “no offence…” It just doesn’t seem healthy for someone to surgically alter their body. It’s a bit extreme but it to each his own. I’m not saying I want to deny anyone’s right and excommunicate anyone out of this or that group. @ Tara: I got your point but you completely manipulated my argument and central question. It’s like body dysmorphia run amok.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 6:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Creed : But that is just it. It’s not. I do not feel like I was born with a portion of the body that is wrong and in fact for ME surgery is not the most important thing. It is a means to an end, but not the end all be all. And I did not manipulate your argument I shifted the assumptions. But thank you for the discourse.

      @Ralph : That is just it though. What about the feelings of Both people. A relationship based purely on physical traits is shallow indeed. Example? What about if I find circumcised penises vile and disgusting. Is it right to expect that everyone tell me about their forskin status when we meet?

      It all works both ways, and what you are defending is the idea that judging someone based purely on physical characteristics is valid.

      Oct 28, 2009 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      rhydderch: thanks for not respecting my right to determine my life. And its too late for me to be a straight woman. I look like a man. No straight man would want to date me because I am not a woman and definitely don’t look like one. I know its hard for you to imagine this, but just try to open your mind just a little bit. And I was never a tomboy growing up… I was considered girly. Now people think I’m a nelly queer.

      Oct 29, 2009 at 1:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      I would like to add this for all the people who don’t understand how much I identify as a man: if I wasn’t allowed to transition, I would be dead. As in suicide. Now I am happy with myself, and even though many of you are actively trying to make me hate myself again, I have the strength to live my life as I see fit.

      And to those who see it as a purely psychiatric issue, you need an education because this has been disproven. The only thing that is psychologically hurtful about being trans is the abuse I get from other people when they find out.

      Oct 29, 2009 at 1:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kian
      Kian

      I never meant this thread to turn into this and I wish there was a better way for this discussion to happen without it turning into a complete clusterf**k.

      With that said, this is not a pity party. This is trans people sticking up for themselves and not letting other people determine their lives. I would hope that gay people would understand this, but clearly it doesn’t work that way.

      Oct 29, 2009 at 2:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ralph
      Ralph

      Tara,

      No, it’s not shallow for a person to want certain physical features in a potential mate. Some straight men like big breasts. Some gay men like big penises. There are tons of people who don’t find foreskin attractive. In fact a lot of straight women and gay in our culture are repulsed by foreskins.

      But, having foreskin or not doesn’t is not the same as a person not having a penis but a vagina or having a penis and not a vagina.

      Again, when you say both, you mean your desires and needs. You want others to desire you regardless of their real selves. It’s like a gay man wanting a straight man to fall for him. That’s unfair.

      Oct 29, 2009 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • naghanenu
      naghanenu

      this talk about trannies is getting gross…lets just end it already

      Oct 29, 2009 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ashleyrosee
      ashleyrosee

      Well then maybe you would like to shut your mouth and leave? Because you’ve obviously closed your mind.

      Oct 29, 2009 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Samael Howard
      Samael Howard

      Those who want to knock the movement back to LGB reveal a sickening obsession with gaining the acceptance of the most prejudiced straights.

      Screw them.

      If they weren’t queer, they’d be the ones arguing homosexuality is a deadly lifestyle choice. Anyone who can ignore the evidence that being transgender has a biological cause can ignore the evidence for natural same sex attraction just as easily.

      It’s really all about what they’re comfortable with. They’ll sacrifice anyone who gets in the way of their comfort, and pretend their selfishness is a virtue.

      But enough of that – let’s talk about friends.

      I’ve been blessed with 4 transgender friends in my lifetime. I’ve been there when they struggled to come out of the closet ( though let’s be honest, we all know it’s a coffin. ), I’ve seen their eyes, the fear that they’d be punished. I’ve seen their courage, the determination to even face death.

      Anyone who thinks transgender just need to talk to a therapist has never had to consider the blood of their best friend spilled over the kitchen floor.

      Oct 29, 2009 at 11:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • naghanenu
      naghanenu

      Transgendered persons are to me just strange. I mean honestly but it seems a bit …i dont know..

      I see a lot of them around especially the guys that are dressed as women. Its scary and most cases laughable.

      At the transmen are managable but the trans women are weird…no amount of hormones can soften that jaw…i know im going to be flagged as inappropriate but im glad im finally saying my mind

      I pray technology gets to a point where the transchange gets more belivable

      Oct 30, 2009 at 2:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rhydderch
      Rhydderch

      Wow I realize that I was making dicky comments because it (a)it was mid-week (b) I’m getting laid-off and (c)I was all out of pot, but damn Naghanenu that’s just harsh. Any hope of a round of ‘Kum bay ya’ has now been dashed.

      Oct 30, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kropotkin
      Kropotkin

      “Wow I realize that I was making dicky comments because it (a)it was mid-week (b) I’m getting laid-off and (c)I was all out of pot, but damn Naghanenu that’s just harsh. Any hope of a round of ‘Kum bay ya’ has now been dashed.”

      Now you know way sometimes we can come off as impatient and angry, because of that kind of BS. Compared to the usual arguements (ones like naghanenu are the rule, not the exception) you’ve been quite open minded. But yeah, LGBT, we’re all in this together, atleast I hope we are.

      “It’s really all about what they’re comfortable with. They’ll sacrifice anyone who gets in the way of their comfort, and pretend their selfishness is a virtue.”

      Quoted for truth. They want freedom for themselves, screw everyone else.

      Oct 30, 2009 at 6:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joey
      Joey

      Man + Woman = Heterosexual
      Woman + Woman = Homosexual
      Man + Man = Homosexual

      Sorry FTMs and MTFs, but the truth hurts.

      Oct 30, 2009 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emily
      Emily

      Joey: And your point is…? It’s already been established that trans people can be either straight or gay. Never mind the fact that the whole reason either gay or trans people need to stand up for our rights is because the heteronormative majority balk at our deviation from gendered norms. Your post was completely irrelevant.

      Oct 30, 2009 at 6:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chong Li
      Chong Li

      Don’t mind Joey, he’s trollin’ hard with what he learned in Christian Math 1.

      Oct 30, 2009 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • levi
      levi

      haha!!! this is really funny. Especially the part where the gay guy appears from nowhere and proves how much he’d date a transman. I’m gay, but i’m also an Atheist and a secular humanist, and i think that LGBT has a long way to go in really discovering the meaning of being open-minded. Listen up kids, Being open-minded does not mean doing what everyone else can’t. So, calling me transphobic because i wouldn’t date a transman, is very illiterate, and you dont understand my feelings. i would in no way try to suck up to dating one just because some desperate idiot needs someone to date. i’m sorry but you will have to deal with the fact that a lot of people don’t want to date you. It’s not our fault, dont take it out on us. So, would i date a transman, NO. And guess what, i don’t need your validation or stupid analogies…speaking of analogies, it goes without saying that all the times we go out and date, that we are not dating our biological mother/father/brother/sister, but when we find out, even the gay guy claiming to be “open-minded” would freak out to learn that they just had sex with their biological mother. well i guess then that you all are still not open-minded enough! lol!! date your bio mother, date a transman, date a man, date a woman, date your brother, but dont fucking force it on me!!! and thank goodness you cant enforce it (dictatorship). as far as i’m concerned, you are as bigotted towards me as bigotted religious freaks are, towards you for telling you not to change your pysical sex, or when they tell you who to date.

      Jul 31, 2012 at 5:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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