oh christ

America’s Episcopalians Wave Giant Gay Finger at World at Large

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You could say the Episcopal Church caved to pressure with its new decision to allow individual churches to anoint gay preachers, but that would be like saying the Episcopal Church was a unified organization not subject to splinter groups, in-fighting, and name calling. Which it totally is! By OK-ing individual churches’ rights to have gay bishops, the Episcopal Church in the U.S. only further distanced itself from the worldwide umbrella Anglican Communion, which still gets all uppity about letting gays be part of the church. Who says globalization is inevitable?

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66 Comments

  • HayYall

    What’s a “stant?”

  • Andrew

    Problem is those welcoming Episcopalians still make Homosexuality WRONG.

    Wait, remind me why someone gay or lesbian would want to be a Bishop for this group or even worship with them? This particular brand of Christianity, as well as all the others, has made us wrong for 2,000 years – and we are part of them? Huh?

    Religion is the ONLY thing that makes gay WRONG. It has lead to ALL the hatred and discrimination of gays.

    WE are not WRONG – Religion is.

  • sweetdog

    @Andrew:
    Wait, remind me why someone gay or lesbian would want to be a Bishop for this group or even worship with them?

    We are talking about the Episcopal Church, not the Anglican Communion. I am a member of an Episcopal Church in NC and have always been made to feel welcome. Although some of the “older” parishioners are perhaps blind to my lifestyle, or choose to overlook it, the younger women and men have made me feel like part of a family, and our associate rector, a woman, has lent her support to the other gay members of the congregation.

    I attended an Anglican Church several years ago, and I thought THEY were welcoming and friendly, but as soon as I outed myself they turned on me and I left.

    Go to cafepress dot com and type in gay episcopal and see how many items there are which promote gays in the church. Among them you will find this (superimposed over a rainbow): “The Episcopal Church welcomes everyone. The Anglican Communion, not so much!”

    The EC has come a long way in acceptance of gays and lesbians and I applaud them for taking one step further to include us. After Gene Robinson was elected Bishop of NH, there was an outcry, but most Episcopaleans are accepting. I stopped going to church a couple of months ago, and while I was gone I received two notes from women of the congregation asking me to please come back. They told me that I was part of the family.

    I don’t know what your denomination is, but why wouldnt I want to worship with people who accept me? It’s the Southern Baptists that I would not want to worship with, and I seriously doubt if I would have received notes asking me to come back.

  • strumpetwindsock

    @Andrew:

    Look man, these people are on our side. When someone offers you their hand you don’t spit in it.

    Don’t talk like an arrogant fucking bonehead.

    You are assuming and discriminating as bad as the fundamentalists.

  • TANK

    @strumpetwindsock:

    No, actually it’s not as bad as the fundamentalists, you utter douchebag. That is a particularly vacuous allegation. Has anyone who condemns christianity for what it is ever cold bloodedly murdered a family planning doctor in a church? Then shut the fuck up.

    Prove that they’re on our side. Do they still look to the bible for guidance? Do they still affirm the bible as the moral authority on earth and word of god? Sure, they may pick and choose which verses to preach and which not to, but they still look to the bible, right? They’re still christian, yes?

  • TANK

    You see, it is impossible for anyone who would reduce the human dignity of lgbt people to a mere squabble over scriptural interpretation to take us seriously, and truly be on our side. It would be like klanners working for the NAACP.

  • KJ

    Individual churches do not “anoint” priests or bishops; that is done at the diocesan level. The resolution passed by the House of Deputies (elected lay and clergy representatives) and the House of Bishops (Bishops are elected by their diocese)states that sexual orientation is irrelevant in the ordination of clergy at any level.

    To address some of the concerns and questions in the thread above, no, Episcopalians do not rely solely on The Bible as the “moral authority on earth.” Scripture, tradition, and reason (science, experience, philosophy, inquiry) inform us. Brains are not checked at the door. Citing “chapter and verse” is a non-starter.

    Also, there seems to be a claim above that Christians have never been killed for simply being Christian. This, of course, is far from the truth in the current and previous centuries. Now, this does not excuse the faith for wrongs committed in its name, but let’s try to be accurate with our claims. It makes discussions far more interesting.

  • TANK

    To address some of the concerns and questions in the thread above, no, Episcopalians do not rely solely on The Bible as the “moral authority on earth.” Scripture, tradition, and reason (science, experience, philosophy, inquiry) inform us. Brains are not checked at the door. Citing “chapter and verse” is a non-starter.

    Oh, so do catholics. Physics was a catholic science, after all…at least before it started saying things about the world. You said solely, though…that isn’t inconsistent with my claims and questions–it doesn’t even answer them. They do look to the bible as a moral authority, and that means they have dogma in their faith (hence, it’s a religion) and it appears diasgreement (strong disagreement) about lesbian and gay clergy. Brains don’t need to be checked at the door to be at the service of dogma, like you are. But I think a good indication that someone’s brain is not being used is to believe something without any evidence for believing it (like that god exists or that the bible is a moral authority).

    Also, there seems to be a claim above that Christians have never been killed for simply being Christian.

    Who said this? Religion’s bad. It gets people killed. But you know, in the united states and most of the world, christians aren’t being killed because they’re christian–actually, they’re doing a lot of the killing because someone disagrees with them about their fairytale.

  • TANK

    And my claims were accurate. You’re never going to see an atheist bomb an abortion clinic or murder an abortion doctor. YOu haven’t yet. can’t say the same’s true of religious fundamentalists.

  • Gabriel

    Once again, I’m proud to be an Episcopalian.

  • KJ

    Agreed, Gabriel.

    Tank, at the risk of boring gentle Queerty readers,

    Dogma is hardly restricted to those of a particular religious faith. I love engaging in conversation with my friends who happen to be atheist. I have learned a great deal from them. “Anti-thiests — not so much. Listening seems to be of little value, and “discussions”, monologues. Of course I can no more prove that God exists than another can prove she does not.

    While many Roman Catholics do engage in spirituality, as I’ve described is true of classical Anglicanism (scripture, tradition, reason), many of my Catholic friends despair as the hierarchical structure of that church leans primarily upon tradition and scripture. For example, advances made in understanding of human sexuality must be ignored as being “incompatible with scripture.” Church authority is granted to males exclusively, in a self-perpetuating order. In contrast, as the picture above indicates, the elected “Presiding Bishop” of the Episcopal Church is a woman, an oceanographer prior to entering the priesthood. This would not have been possible if Episcopalians were tied to scripture as dogma as you describe.

    I would agree religion is not a particularly good thing, and often used to oppress. The thirst for power is not restricted to religion, however; the 20th century is littered with the bodies of those killed by tyrants of no particular religious persuasion (e.g., Mao, Stalin). I’m not exactly sure as to why we are discussing assassinations, and your point regarding an atheist killing a physician who provided abortions is non-debateable, so not sure why you think I would disagree with it. My point was that many Christians have been killed for no other reason than their faith. In fact, sociologists estimate that more Christians were killed during the 20th century than were killed in all previous centuries combined. I don’t know if that is true or not, but have met people who have been persecuted solely because of their Christian faith. Palestinian Christians might have a thought or two on the matter both in regard to religious and political intolerance. This is not to denigrate the fact that there are many instances in which Christians have inflicted atrocities upon others. Many wrongs do not make a right.

    Power for power’s sake is evil; however, if in fact there is no moral authority, I likely cannot discern what is “evil” and what is not. But of course, any time we decide if something is “good” or “bad”, we’ve used some type of moral authority, even if its just preservation of the species.

    If you were debating these matters with religious types from the faith setting of my youth, I’d cheer you on. However, scratch an Episcopalian and they will not bleed religious dogma. They will support all who struggle with the search for the divine, even if that is to the conclusion that there is no divine. We would not denigrate anyone toward that end, nor do we feel that others must agree with us. So, when you suggest that all must agree with you, or they are very foolish indeed, you’ll just get a shrug.

    Peace shrug

  • galefan2004

    @Andrew: You sound like Religion_Hurts. Like I told him. Religion IS NOT the only thing that makes being gay wrong. Apparently, you never met an atheist homophobe, but let me share my personal experience, that most of the homophobes I know that are actually blatant about their disdain for gay men (not lesbians…they are excited by lesbians) are actually even more anti-religious as you are. The very thought of sex with other men is as wrong for most straight men as the thought of banging pussy is us to us gay men, and that has NOTHING to do with religion. The fact that straight men can’t understand what they don’t comprehend is what makes gay “wrong”.

  • galefan2004

    @strumpetwindsock: I normally agree with Andrew on a lot of things and with Tank on very little, but both of them are stuck in the lump all religion together and destroy it all mentality. I wonder how they overlook the fact that the biggest ally in the gay/lesbian fight has been organizations like PFLAG and organizations like PFLAG have always depended on the support of gay friendly churches. I guess that fact just disappears behind the “oooh religion is bad” argument. Its actually funny because my first large public meeting with the gay community was done on the door step of a large Episcopalian church in Cleveland as we mourned the death of Mathew Shepard together.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: You do realize that the majority of the christian theologians that exist today in pretty much every religion say that the original translation of the bible to condemn homosexuality was completely wrong. Only you, and of course the religious zealots that need an excuse for their bigotry, still promote homosexuality as wrong according to the bible.

  • galefan2004

    @KJ: Seriously, unless you like beating your head against a wall (a delusional, defunct, semi-brain dead wall) don’t even bother trying to get sense into Tank’s head. He knows what he knows and he makes up what he doesn’t know. Any facts that you give him to dispute his opinion are simply false, and he keeps his own little ideas no matter what.

  • Ted C.

    @Andrew: “Religion is the ONLY thing that makes gay WRONG. It has lead to ALL the hatred and discrimination of gays.”

    That’s simply not true. The Nazis weren’t a religious movement, and yet they persecuted gay men. Stalinist Russia was openly hostile to religion, and yet it persecuted gay men too.

    The idea that religion is homophobic and atheists are non-homophobic just isn’t true.

  • TANK

    @KJ:

    i can throw out a bunch of spurrious facts in defense of an indefensible position, too. But I won’t because I respect the truth more than you do. I never stated that dogma is restricted to religion. The atrocities committed in the name of jesus christ that have increased the amount of human suffering for millenia are not excused because dogma isn’t just a religious thing…it is a religious thing, too.

    There is a moral authority, it just isn’t skydaddy. I know this is hard for people like to fathom. The suffering of beings capable of suffering determines ethical value–not the vacuous and unethical pronouncements of an invisible unverifiable angry god…you fool.

  • KJ

    @galefan2004: Got it, Galefan! What I think and believe is what Tank THINKS I think and believe. Where’s the fun in that?

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Do you honestly know how stupid you sound? According to you if I am afraid of terrorists all I have to do is avoid anyone religious and I will be just fine.

    Also, please say you did not just blame the religious for their martyrdom. The truth is that nationalism is now and always has been at odds with religion. The two forces simply do not work together. There has been plenty of terrorism done in the name of both causes.

    Hell, a great deal of the Native Americans were killed in this country after they had already converted to Christianity. Christians have been killed in the name of religious suppression for decades and are still being killed. Do you honestly think DARFUR and most of Africa (where things are much worse than they ever will be in the United States) are the way they are because of religion. I would hope you would not be this stupid, but then again I know you are.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2593626/MI5-Terrorists-not-frustrated-religious-loners.html

  • TANK

    ANd you always have to ask yourself why were they killed for no other reason than their religion. You forget that throughout history, jewish blood has been spilled because of christian superstition, and before that, jews warred with and slaughtered others who disagreed with their fairytale. Why did this happen save for religion or some other dogma? Religion cannot exist without dogma (without believing in miracles), but the amount of dogma in the world would be greatly reduced if not for religion.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    Oh this is embarrassing. You’re basically a stumbling, fumbling retard who never makes a point that can’t be easily refuted.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    That’s not true…you don’t know anything about theology or religion to say those things. I do…and you’re flatly wrong. One of the greatest religious philosophers of the twentieth century, actually–alvin plantinga (credited with making god talk acceptable in mainstream analytic philosophy departments) and one of the most zealous defenders of religious belief (he’s a calvinist)…is on record saying that if you don’t think that the bible condemns homosexuality (both old and new testament), then you’re not a christian.

  • galefan2004

    @Ted C.: China has oppressed religion much longer than it has oppressed homosexuality, but guess what, CHINA STILL OPPRESSES HOMOSEXUALITY. There are countless examples if you use your head for something other than yelling about how religion destroys the world.

  • galefan2004

    @KJ: It is sometimes fun to get him all hot and bothered. He is your average 20 something that believes he knows it all. Its all good, because turning 30 to these people is about the equivalent of death. He turns 30 in about two years, and then he is either going to have to grow up or become a self hating asshole and only date 18 year olds. I’m guessing in his case it will be the second one.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    Nationalism is at odds with religion? LOL! ha ha ha ha….do you know who milosevic was, or any of the eastern european tyrants are?

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    I’m not “hot and bothered” by any means. You’re just a fool. I can easily obliterate your points with either reference to facts, or with basic logic.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Dude, you never make a point at all. Nothing stands up to you. You bore me. The only one that is an idiot that stumbles through life is you. I’m sorry that its either your way or no way, but believe it or not when studies conducted by people much more intelligent than you (then again that could be a study done by 5 year olds) prove you wrong its ok to admit that you are wrong. You just claim you can’t read the study or that the study is wrong. I’m sorry Tank that you are a self hating asshole that is still better than everyone else.

  • TANK

    Religion is, in fact, one of some ideologies that make being gay wrong. It is without doubt the most pernicious in the united states and world today to justify homophobia. We don’t need faggots like you making excuses for it.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    You’re basically just beating off like a monkey in a cage right now…you didn’t start with an argument, and you’re sure not going to end with one.

  • TANK

    I’m sorry that I’m offending your faith, galefan…no, actually I’m not. I think it’s idenfensible and morally abhorrent. Even if your god were to exist (which is disproven on strictly logical grounds), it would unethical for me to worship it…for it would be a vile evil dictator.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: You are wrong. You closed off your mind to open discussion a very long time ago.

    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

    Oh, and please don’t tell someone that spent the last 12 years coming to terms with their religion versus their homosexuality that they know nothing about it. It makes you look like a condescending ass. I’ve spent the last 12 years making this cause my own. My result was that I was atheist for personal reasons. I still support churches because I saw all the good that was done by churches. I don’t need some condescending ass that honestly believes he is always right about everything to judge my struggle. Thank you for thinking I do. It just reconfirms my belief about you. Its actually a shame that you aren’t religious because you preach blind stupidity better than anyone I have ever met.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: You throw up one example like its supposed to make the point. Do you know who Hitler or Stalin were? Have you studied any Chinese history at all? Have you even done an in depth study of the history of the United States. The Native Americans that they rounded up for slaughter and to march west were already converting to Christianity. I come from an area where they slaughtered an entire group of Christian believing Indians in the name of nationalism about 2 miles from where I live. Lets not even get started with Napoleon, the entire Roman empire (before it went Christian), the Turks, and god only knows how many countless other groups that had no belief system other than pure nationalism. These groups always sought to destroy religion because religion was a destructive force to their regimes.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Logic according to you. As I said Tank, I’m sorry you hate yourself but still believe you are better than everyone else. I am so glad I’m not you.

  • TANK

    I’m done. YOu’re too stupid to realize that you have nothing remotely intelligent to contribute to this discussion. You’re too stupid to even have an opinion one way or the other here.

  • TANK

    Yeah, I know who stalin was, you religious zealot. STalinism is not atheism. Atheism isn’t a view of the world–it’s not a philosophy…it’s not communism; it’s not stalinism; it’s not nazism…it’s not islam or christianity, either…you fucking turnip.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: What faith. You think because I can view the world with an open mind I have to be in favor of practicing religion. You assumed that, I never said that. You assume a lot in your lack of arguments don’t you. Every single point that I countered you with you can’t dispute, so you just ignore. This never ends quite well for you does it Tank. You can only spout off your opinion for so long with it being WRONG every single time before I school your whiny little bitch ass yet again. Its fun to keep going till I make you shut up. I have to be in the mood for it, but when I am its better than sex.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    Soulforce is a joke. Nothing soulforce has ever done will ever change the views of evangelical christians in this country…they waste their time in some sad little martyrdom display by going to evangelical and christian college campuses to say jesus loved gays…well, that’s just great…but no one there believes that and they’re making no difference. They just can’t give up skydaddy…they can’t put the bottle down.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    I assumed since you were using every single pat robertson, evangelical christian inspired dodge in the book, that you’re a raving lunatic christian…

  • galefan2004

    @galefan2004:

    I’m done. YOu’re too stupid to realize that you have nothing remotely intelligent to contribute to this discussion. You’re too stupid to even have an opinion one way or the other here.

    Let me translate what you are actually saying, “yet again, I’m wrong, and I just can’t handle arguing with someone that not only makes valid points but can actually back them up. I’m going to go kick my dog now because I have remembered bullying 101 teaching me to only fight those that don’t defend themselves.”

    The verdict isn’t out Tank. This entire site can’t fucking stand your level of stupidity. You are going to tell someone that has researched this topic over and over for 12 years that they don’t know anything about it because they can prove everything you say is fallacy, and give up when you keep getting called on that.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    But you haven’t researched this topic. You don’t know what atheism is, and you don’t understand the objections to religious dogma.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Your problem is you assume A LOT of shit. You just can’t handle the truth so you turn your assumptions into gospel. If anyone is religious minded here (inability to listen to logic, only insulting anything that agrees with you and inability to admit you might just be wrong) its you.

    http://www.whosoever.org/bible/
    http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2002/08/21/what_the_bible

    Do I really need to come up with more credible sources? Seriously, what you are saying is so completely off base. There is more than one part of the christian religion that doesn’t believe (like you obviously do) that the bible goes completely against homosexuality and therefore gays can never be children of god.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    what have I assumed other than that you’re a religious zealot? WHen you defend religious dogma as zealously as you have, what is one to conclude?

  • TANK

    This is simply hyperbole. You’ve no interest in debating religion…you’ve no interest in seriously confronting the values that are responsible for incalculable human suffering that are religious…you just want to defend vacuous religious dogma…for some reason

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: I thought you were done with this argument.

    a?the?ism
    ?
    ?/?e??i??z?m/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
    Use atheism in a Sentence
    –noun
    1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
    2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    I understand exactly what it means. I don’t actually believe in god. I don’t actually believe in any supreme being.

    dog?ma
    ?
    ?/?d?gm?, ?d?g-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
    Use dogma in a Sentence
    –noun, plural -mas, -ma?ta
    ?/-m?t?/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
    1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
    2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
    3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
    4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

    Every church has a completely different system of principles and tenants. They all lay down different doctrines. Apparently according to this definition your established opinion that all religion is the worst force on earth is just an example of dogma.

    Your problem is that you ASSUME (wrongfully so) that all religious organizations have the exact same tank on the bible and god. Your argument fails to take into account where there are so many splinters of the church. However, I long since retired my hope that you would actually make sense with any of your arguments. You are like a raging bull, and religion is your red flag, and you just charge relentlessly at it, always just missing the actual point.

  • TANK

    Every church has a completely different system of principles and tenants. They all lay down different doctrines. Apparently according to this definition your established opinion that all religion is the worst force on earth is just an example of dogma.

    Your problem is that you ASSUME (wrongfully so) that all religious organizations have the exact same tank on the bible and god.

    No, stupid, I never assumed this. There are two reasons to oppose most religions on earth. One applies to all of them…and that is the epistemic reason (there is simply no good reason and no evidence to believe any of the claptrap). The second is that without religion, there would be demonstrably less suffering on the earth amongst sentient beings. The second is is simply beyond dispute.

  • TANK

    If ALL christians were to become as harmless as jains are, I’d have no problem with them. THe fact is that most of them aren’t–and anyone who claims the title christian is helping them either directly or indirectly compound misery on this planet.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Please show me ONE point where I defended religious dogma. I’ve never once defend their belief system. That is not in ANY of my arguments. Apparently, either you don’t know that the fuck dogma is or you have read into. I have defended religion because I have seen good works come from it on many occasions. I have never once defended the belief systems themselves.

    You couldn’t be more wrong. I want to give the churches the credit for the good works they have done. You want to pretend they would have been done anyways. Yet, you can’t prove that they can not be done anyways, because even in your examples (UNICEF) you failed to examine the fact that they don’t exist without religion. You also want to lump all religion together and that just infuriates me.

    Has religion done a crap load of evil shit? Fuck yeah. It is directly behind the crusades, it is directly behind the witch hunts, it is directly behind the original introduction of white man onto Native American lands (before nationalism took over and even killed the religious NAs) and it is even directly behind racism (the KKK started back by religion).

    I’m not about to argue that any of those things never happened. The only two arguments I ever made is 1) religion is far from the only force that makes being gay “wrong” and 2) you have to throw all the good away that has been done by religion even if it didn’t need religion in order for that good to be accomplished.

    I won’t get into a discussion about dogma with you, because to be honest, I can’t fucking stand church and dogma. My involvement with religion comes from having religious friends that have no choice but to accept me for who I am. However, I’m not stepping foot in their church, but I’m not stripping them from my friends list either.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: You would have just loved Bill Marher’s Religious. Actually, it was a great documentary, and I very much liked it myself. The funny thing is, I’m not even inclined to disagree with you. I personally don’t identify myself as christian.

    However, I think that you can’t discount the good that has been done in the name of the church because historically it has been done in the name of the church. It is interesting to me that you want to hold the church accountable for all the wrongs in the world but not give them credit for anything good they have ever done. Then you say that if all christians were harmless you would not be against religion. You get to pick and chose your argument here. Either you hate all religion or you just hate all religion that teaches hate. I completely agree that all religion that teaches hate is unacceptable.

    It seems to me that this is a huge sticking point for you. I’m not going to guess about your background, but it really seems like you are an ex-religious person that is most likely as fucked up because of religion as I am.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    This is retarded. You ask if the good that religion is responsible for can outweigh the bad it is responsible for. If not, then it’s justified, if so, then it is not justified. Of course it can–organizations like unicef and the bill and melinda gates foundation are not religious institutions. Of course people can do good things without religion. THe problem is that you can’t have more than one religion and more than one type of person and not have conflict. If just one person dies as a result of superstition, then that superstition isn’t justified. That rules out most religions.

  • TANK

    I saw religulous. I think bill maher is a bit too preachy at times, but he’s funny…it made me laugh, too. It’s atheism for the common man!

  • TANK

    If you’d like a good series in a similar vein, just go on youtube and check out richard dawkins the root of all evil. That was a far superior depiction of the conflict, though perhaps not as convincing as maher’s…because let’s face, people are cattle.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: I already countered you on UNICEF. Perhaps it is not a core religion organization, but it has a long history of getting bed with church organizations.

    Also, that question was rhetorical, and something that I struggle with in my stance of feeling like you do and still accepting some religion at the same time. It is just harder for me to turn off all the good things I have seen come from the churches (those that don’t teach hate) even though I don’t attend the churches or fully support them.

    I really don’t agree that you can’t have more than one type of religion without conflict. That is just not a valid argument. There are multiple religions in this country, and the last time I checked we aren’t in a civil war because of it. People that have various religious backgrounds work together every day in this country for common goals.

    I actually agree with you, the deaths that came at the hands of superstition are unacceptable. The difference is that while you are willing to say that all good would have been done with out religion, I’m willing to say that the bad would have been done as well. People like Hitler were evil fucking bastards. They didn’t need to justify their actions with religion (and Nazism is politics not religion) they would have found another way to justify it if religion didn’t exist.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: I personally think he was a bit to preachy too. However, I respected his stance, and yeah he is normally hilarious.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Sheep my friend, sheep. They even call themselves sheep in “need” of a shepherd. Its just funny that people are so readily akin to be sheep. I never understood that, but then again I never understood the desire of people to just fit in in general.

    My biggest problem with religion has always been I simply think to much to rely on any kind of faith. I don’t have the ability to check my brain at the door on Sunday. When it came to rather I could think rationally or base my decisions on blind faith it was simply a no-brainer.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    So what? UNICEF is not a religious body. Who cares? IF you can use some religion to do some good, why not? But the fact is that we don’t need to do this–we don’t need the middleman. Okay? We’re adults here, and don’t need skydaddy’s rage to help a little old lady cross the street.

  • TANK

    I really don’t agree that you can’t have more than one type of religion without conflict. That is just not a valid argument. There are multiple religions in this country, and the last time I checked we aren’t in a civil war because of it. People that have various religious backgrounds work together every day in this country for common goals.

    No, but you don’t need to be in civil war to acknowledge that religions in this country are in conflict, and moreso, do promote human suffering for no good reason other than a fairytale. I’d hope any gay person would be aware of that.

  • TANK

    Also, it is the case where you have one completely separate explanation of everything (christianity, for example) matched against another (islam), then there is simply going to be a conflict somewhere because they are inconsistent. Now, if it were the case that built into these faiths was the first amendment, I still think there’d be a conflict (there are conflicts all over this country every day in which one religion pits itself against another), because religion doesn’t trump evolution. In fact, it’s probably a byproduct that we can’t shake, but that no longer promotes our species’ fitness.

  • TANK

    @TANK:

    oh, and more importantly, there aren’t. IN fact, in both christianity and islam are found explicit decrees to slaughter the nonbeliever.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: I like that quote…


    We’re adults here, and don’t need skydaddy’s rage to help a little old lady cross the street.

    Just so you know, I’m probably going to use that at some point.

    Anyways, its just interesting that you keep pointing out that religious organizations are not needed and throwing up UNICEF. I’m sorry, but if you acknowledge the religious leaders that sit on your board of directors in your own press releases you seem pretty fucking religious to me. Even if you don’t agree, UNICEF obviously realizes its much easier to use religious organizations to get things done. My question to you is that if non-religious people are willing to pick up the slack then why do they use these religious organizations?

    I honestly don’t agree with your assessment that the fairy tale is what causes them to promote human suffering. Political agenda is what causes them to promote human suffering. Hatred of gays and lesbians is a political debate not a religious one. I think what you fail to realize is that straight men really don’t need an excuse to hate gay men. They hate us because they don’t agree with our method and think its disgusting in most cases. They use religion as an excuse, but they attack us politically not religiously.

    That being said, I’m not defending religion here, I’m simply pointing out, like I have said many times, some of the most homophobic people I have ever met were more anti-religious than I am. Their issue with it was that it was just gross and abnormal. They didn’t base that on religion, they based it on the fact that it was different. People don’t like people that are different than them in general, and they use all kinds of excuses to destroy people different than them.

  • galefan2004

    @TANK: Actually, there is no such thing in the Christian religion. You are thinking of Judaism there. The Christian belief system believes in converting or avoiding the non-believer not killing them. Main stream Muslim religion doesn’t even believe that you should kill all non-believers. You can’t take the extremes and describe the majority by them any more than you can say all gay men are like Bruno.

  • TANK

    @TANK:

    And thank god we live in a country in which secularism has managed severe inroads into attenuating religion’s force. Yes, in america we can be proud that we no longer burn people accused of witchcraft or stone women who do not conform to the patriarchy (unfortunately, we still kill people who don’t correspond to the gender binary–another harmful dogma that religion trades off of and amplifies). We can’t say that of islamic countries, who do still allow for the stoning of women for religious reasons, who disobey papa, and massacre homosexuals because skydaddy disapproves.

  • TANK

    @galefan2004:

    That’s simply not true. There are a host of bible quotations which explicitly condone the slaying of nonbelievers.

  • Ted C.

    @galefan2004: “There are countless examples if you use your head for something other than yelling about how religion destroys the world.”

    You must be confusing me for someone else. I didn’t say anything like that.

  • Shawn

    @TANK: Not to mention stoning children that don’t listen to their parents.

  • Ioan

    I think that we should accentuate the postive here. The Episcopal Church has made big strides in the last 30 years or so. Many of their congregations are welcoming and affirming and that is not to be sneezed at, given the fundamentalist attitudes toward us. I believe that this bodes well for marriage equality within the Church (for those who feel a religious union is the right way to go) and in society since many Episcopalians are active in social movements/ movements for change.

    And just in case Andrew wants to start in on me, I am Wiccan, a religion that has absolutely NO condemnation of consenting sex be it straight, gay, bisexual…”If it harms none, do as ye will.”

  • John

    I read all the comments and Tank is just a frustrated troll that has too much time on his hands in his mothers basement. Get off your elitist high horse and take off those rosey “I hate religion” goggles and grow a pair chief. How the hell can you study history and theology with such a biased angry view? The answer is YOU CANT. Go take your anti religion rhetoric and join the commies in europe. By the way…to make it clear. MOST genocides have been done by ATHEISTS you dumb mother fucker. People like you who want to destroy all religion. OH! and most assasinations are done by athiest communist liberal anarchist piece of shits like you most likely are. MOST dictators are ATHEIST. Hitler was athiest. Stalin was athiest. Mussolini was athiest. The list goes on…Oh and by the way if youre in america get the fuck out. Because THE IDEA OF AMERICA WAS FOUND ON A RELIGION! FREEDOM FOR ALL MEN? ALL MEN ARE EQUAL. Yea! From CHRISTIANITY! Go figure…Its actually common for people of your intellect to think that everything is religions fault. Because you look around the net for these liberal “scholars” who have so much hate in their heart they bleed out all over the floor..but actually religion is the reason most of the world if westernized today you cock fag. Do your homework and go to college you thirteen year old nub. Good game.

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