Over the weekend we learned about Norrie, Australia’s first non-female, non-male, completely gender-neutral civilian as recognized by law. And then some high-up government officials got wind of her “sex not specific” certificate, and canceled it.
On Tuesday, the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages called the 48-year-old to tell Norrie (pictured above, center) zie would be having her documents canceled. Oh hell to the no.
Norrie says the decision is a breach of human rights. “I was devastated by the news,” Norrie said. “I felt killed. It’s a hideously humiliating position to find myself in and makes a mockery of my human rights. I feel completely violated by the [NSW] Attorney-General’s office.”
New South Wales Greens MP Lee Rhiannon questioned the Attorney-General, John Hatzistergos, in parliament today. Mr Hatzistergos denied he was behind the decision. “At no time did I – well I didn’t speak to the registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages but I’m advised also in relation to my office – make any direction to the registrar in relation to the decision that he took,” he said. However, Mr Hatzistergos said the Director-General of his department discussed the matter with the registrar and a decision was reached to obtain legal advice. “My office was advised of that legal advice on Monday,” he said. “Advice from the Crown solicitor is that the registrar may only issue a recognised details certificate or new birth certificate following a change of sex in either male or female gender. The registrar has accepted this advice and has directed that any application for recognised details certificates or changes to sex comply with this advice.”
Which still doesn’t answer the question about whether the government will recognize Norrie — born a man, had hormone therapy and surgery to become a woman, but no longer takes hormones and identifies as neither gender — as a man or a woman.
Cam
Any Transgenders care to comment on this one? I’m a bit confused as to why it is so completely upsetting to either put down the gender Norie wanted to transition to, or the one Norie was born as. Anybody out there have insight?
Dyssonance
Not all trans folks *have* a gender. Gender is like Sexual orientation in that sometimes there is one end, sometimes another, and then a bunch of people in the middle.
Gender is not an either/or option — its an infinite variety.
Cam
No. 2 · Dyssonance
Not all trans folks *have* a gender. Gender is like Sexual orientation in that sometimes there is one end, sometimes another, and then a bunch of people in the middle.
Gender is not an either/or option — its an infinite variety.
________________________
What about the situation here, did Norie think they were a woman, and then as they got there decided that that wasn’t what they thought? I’m just curious because I’ve heard of people attempting to switch back to the other gender after transitioning but never heard of one that just opted out.
Bri
Sex is biological. You’re either male, female, or in a smaller number of cases both.
Gender is social/an expression of identity. You can be masculine, feminine, androgynous or somewhere on the continuum.
There’s a lot of confusion with these terms, and unfortunatley they’re commonly used interchangeably – which they’re not.
I’m not sure this actually helps answer the question of what Norrie or Australia should do, but first and foremost the question needs to be answered, what does the form legally require – sex or gender?
Once we can agree on that, then at least there’s a little more clarity.
nikko
Norrie is male, then has had surgery(?) to become female. So he’s transexual. What’s so hard to understand? He’s not gender neutral: there is no such thing. There are only two sexes: male and female. “Identify” whatever you want, it does not change the biological facts. This PC stupidity only reinforces the muddy thinking on the left, and the anti-gay fuckers on the right.
Jadis
I’m neither male nor female, but I wouldn’t do something like that. You’d end up a target every time you pulled out your ID.
That said, if zie wants to do it, more power to hir. It’ll be a tough row to hoe though. Somebody’s got to be a pioneer.
misanthrope
“Any Transgenders care to comment on this one? I’m a bit confused as to why it is so completely upsetting to either put down the gender Norie wanted to transition to, or the one Norie was born as. Anybody out there have insight?”
>>>>>>Most transsexuals identify as male or female, but not all. Many people, cis-gender or trangender, identify as gender neutral or was is more popularly known as gender queer, as in they may have the body (sex) as a man or woman, but they don’t identify with binary male or female catagories (gender). Norrie transitioned male to female but it doesn’t identify like zie’s at either end of spectrum gender-wise, which is perfectly within zir’s right.
“I’m just curious because I’ve heard of people attempting to switch back to the other gender after transitioning but never heard of one that just opted out.”
>>>>>People transitioning back is pretty rare, usually people stop before they do to much to matter if transition isn’t for them. From what I get, Norrie feels that a female body fits her best, but doesn’t identify as female or male.
“There are only two sexes: male and female. “Identify” whatever you want, it does not change the biological facts. This PC stupidity only reinforces the muddy thinking on the left, and the anti-gay fuckers on the right.”
>>>>> I don’t think anybody is claiming that physical sex doesn’t exist, Norrie just doesn’t feel that zir gender fits with female or male as feels uncomfortable with being categorized as such. Besides, there’s also dozens of intersex conditions where people are either chromosomal, physically, or hormonially neither male or female in a strict sense. That’s a biological fact.
Paschal
@misanthrope: Perhaps the law could recognise people’s physical sex, irrespective of whether they were born into it or transitioned into it, and the gender they identify with, if any. The law could take note of whether someone is transgendered to have a record. The law shouldn’t recognise someone’s physical sex as being different to what it actually is because the physical sex as recorded by the State should simply be a matter of fact thing. If someone identifies with a different gender, or none at all as the case may be, to the one he/she was born into, steps should be taken to ensure that such as person may be able to have his/her gender respected by the State.
missanthrope
@Paschal:
“Perhaps the law could recognise people’s physical sex, irrespective of whether they were born into it or transitioned into it, and the gender they identify with, if any.”
This is worded kind of wierdly, what do you mean “physical sex”? You mean genital, chormosonal, etc. If you’re suggesting the physical birth sex, then that would create problems for post-op people who are, except chromosonally, pyshically the other sex as they are born as.
Are you suggesting that gender markers reflect the gender people identify with? I could get behind that. Like in California and a few other states, they let you change your gender with a letter from a psych saying you’re trasitioning. They do this irregardless of surgery status.
“The law could take note of whether someone is transgendered to have a record.”
That would leave trans people open to discrimination if a job was subject to background checks. They could seal that record like Britain, but I doubt our lawmakers would be that enlightened.
“steps should be taken to ensure that such as person may be able to have his/her gender respected by the State.”
I agree with this sentiment.
Quite frankly I would like to all references on ID’s (except for maybe birth certificates and merical records) to gender or sex abolished. For identification and security they an alomst useless way to identify someone and that’s borne out by the trans people who live and pass as women and men but yet have the opposite on thier records and driver’s licenses.
For example: I’ve known more than a few people who have gone to the DMV to get a renewl or name change when presenting as thier identified-as-gender but the opposite on thier cards. The clerk say’s “oh wow, there has been a mistake, let me change that back” and thier issued a new card even though they might not have the right surgery letter by regulations. Or for another example, trans people who are stopped by the cops and whom are told to go fix the “mistake” on thier DL because they are passing or simply the cop doesn’t say anything since they don’t even look at the gender marker, they just assume.
So as you can see, there’s really no reason to have these kinds of traits on identification papers, becuase no one can really tell for sure without a physical/DNA examination and there are already people out there presenting with mixed-up indentity makers where in one context, they be considered a man, to another legal/government body, they are a woman.
The way we idenitify people is really kind of a messed-up patchwork of state, federal and local standards that don’t really make sense. So I don’t think it matters so much if identifications have a “sex” or “gender” at all.
I know people will read this a panic about “security purposes” If police are on the lookout for someone, they’re looking for idenitifiable traits, blonde hair, brown eyes, etc. Things that people can see, not what’s in people’s pants. So I don’t see that so much as an issue either.
We have sex/gender traits on identification/government papers because it’s custom and people seem to think it really matters, that’s about the only pragmatic reason except for things concerning medical records. People just think think we *need* to have them.
Sorry for writing a book, but it is really that nuanced.
Hilarious
The more complicated and confusing people make this crap the harder it is to make valid and solid laws to defend these very same people who actually need strong laws to support them.
Playing this “gender neutral” thing makes it extremely hard to create protective laws for this person and others.
missanthrope
“Playing this “gender neutral” thing makes it extremely hard to create protective laws for this person and others.”
How?
Hilarious
@missanthrope: A good lawyer.
Chris
“…zie would be having her documents canceled…”
Dang queerty. I seem to remember a hell of a lot of comments about your fuck ups last time Norrie’s story was on your website. You think you’d get it right this time.