A recently surfaced video showing the average Beijinger’s take on the LGBT community is proving that gay life in the Chinese capital is probably pretty grim.
When asked whether they would “be friends with” a gay man, nearly everyone in these random on-the-street interviews expresses some kind of disgust. After hearing the question, one young man recoils and says, “Gay men in China are so effeminate…I just think they are repulsive.”
Another man adds: “We should give [gay] men testosterone injections.”
Strangely, their attitudes toward bisexuals and transgender people seem to be more accepting. “They probably have a good reason for surgery,” one woman says, referring to transgender people. She added that she would not only be friends with a transgender person, but would openly accept a transgender relative’s decision to transition.
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The video appears to have been commissioned by the United Nations Development Programme to gauge the public’s reaction to the new pro-LGBT voice of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who openly condemned Russia’s persecution of LGBTs in February.
In the video, he commends the Being LGBT In Asia initiative, an organization working to end stigma against LGBTs in Asia. “I stand with you,” he says. “The UN is here to support your efforts in building a world of equality and justice.”
h/t Shanghaiist
money718
So it seems to me that main probably in China, is that men are too effeminate and women are two manly. The young dude said foreign gay men are not that effeminate, so at least we know he prefers masculine dudes lol.
money718
the main problem that is…
Stefano
Chinese people are homophobic? Nooooo…get out of here ! LOL
Stefano
@money718 : you are right…the problem is effinate men not homophobie. LOL
Stefano
…effeminate…LOL
Masc Pride
@money718: I’ve had discussions about that very topic. It’s hard for me to believe certain ethnicities are just innately more homophobic than others. But I think it’s definitely possible that certain ethnicities might be more likely to see really exaggerated stereotypes that contribute to these disgusted opinions. Some say blacks are the most homophobic. Most of the gay black guys I’ve seen on TV and IRL are all uber fem sometimes cross-dressing divas that even other gay guys make fun of. Maybe the same might be true in China? Maybe these cultures just need to see some more upstanding examples.
Stefano
@Masc Pride : you are as funny as bigots. Every time i read your comments, i just can’t stop laughing. Continue your good work ! You are hilarious.
JJ24
When the one said give them testosterone injections someone should have told them they tried that in the 80s and that it did nothing other then really horny them up. They ultimately stopped these injection when they realized that Gay mens Testosterone levels do not vary from a straight mans.
Masc Pride
@Stefano: Stop taking every little thing so personally. No one’s being disrespectful or accusatory (except you). We’re just discussing what some root causes may be. You’re so ready to attack that you can’t even type right. lol
Masc Pride
And how can you even fix your fingers to type a complaint about bigotry after replying with:
“Chinese people are homophobic? Nooooo…get out of here ! LOL”
Milk
I wonder if they should all be reminded when Mao was running the country, they all would be farming and working in the camp with not pay. Would they willing to give up their iphone and all their comfortable lifestyles?
Stefano
@Masc Pride : you don’t jokes do you? LOL
Masc Pride
@Stefano: I’ve been conversing with one. LOL
PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID
And these (along with the India) are our future overlords! Unless we change their minds, and relatively soon, while the West still has extant power and considerable soft power (Hollywood etc), the sea could close over us bringing an end to the gay rights era; the post-stonewall era will be looked upon by future historians as what it is — a historical blip, a sociocultural anomaly. To make the culture of thousands-of-years-old continuous civilisations more amenable will probably require, at the very least, a major toning down of some of our more in-your-face sexual excesses and individualism; at least until we’ve got our feet securely under the table when we afford to let our freak fag fly freely (if that’s your thing.) From here on out it’s a global PR war for our survival, necessitating pragmatism and compromise. So time to buy a hat and sensible shoes and to make like MLK’s respectable colored folk.
DarkZephyr
@Stefano: When it comes to “effeminate men” some people will always victim blame rather than blame the REAL problem. A little something called homophobia. The homophobes are to blame, not the victims of homophobia. Its at this point that the so called self identified “masc” gay men, if they ARE so tough and masculine, should be stepping up to the plate and defending their brothers rather than victim blaming them and perpetuating the homophobia. But clearly that won’t be happening any time soon. This is no different from a light skinned black person in New Orleans who can “pass” as white among r*cists blaming a darker skinned black person for r*cism itself. The problem is that self identifying as “masc” isn’t necessarily the same as being brave and noble and a decent human being.
Stefano
@Dark Zephyr : yes i know all this. I was joking when i wrote my comment but It seems that some people don’t get It. My mother toungue is French and sometimes i wrote in English like in French…but at least i try. For me, writting comments here is like an exercise. Mais en français, je suis excellent. 🙂
Stache99
@JJ24: I do the testosterone therapy. No opposite sex urges yet. Can get horny as fuck though;)
Stache99
I liked some of their answers. “You don’t you like gays. Well, why? I don’t know. I just know that I’m right.” Lol
n900mixalot
People should actually watch the video. It shows a lot of varying opinion that doesn’t seem to be much different from “Western/European” views.
The best was the woman who said something like, “Family is family.”
Most commenters must not have actually watched it.
Stache99
@Masc Pride: “I think it’s definitely possible that certain ethnicities might be more likely to see really exaggerated stereotypes that contribute to these disgusted opinions.”
So in other words if the world had more “straight acting” gays then we wouldn’t have any issues.
Better tell that to countries like Russia, Uganda, and Jamaica. I’m sure all those laws are just to cut down on the Fems. Lol
Masc Pride
@DarkZephyr: I think it’s more like the types who never get anywhere and stay frustrated/bitter because they self-victimize and expect others to fix their issues instead of fighting for themselves. When you see yourself as a victim, there’s always someone else to blame for your problems, which means they’ll likely never be solved. A “brave and noble and a decent human being” doesn’t expect others to do what he should be doing for himself.
I do love how fems are our “brothers” after all the masc-shaming and self-loathing/closet case accusations they consistently spew at the very same guys from which they apparently need help. Great way to go about getting it!
DarkZephyr
@Stefano: Don’t worry, I knew you were joking. 🙂
Masc Pride
@Stache99: No, those are YOUR words. Did I say anything about “straight-acting”? No. Some of you guys love putting your own manipulative little spins on what was actually said just so you can fight with people you don’t like. lol
What I said was, if a certain group of people is more commonly seeing a stereotype (that both straight AND gay people tend to view as negative), that could easily taint their perceptions. I’d be curious to see what the common representation of a gay male in Chinese media looks like.
Stefano
Masc Pride wrote : “I do love how fems are our “brothers” after all the masc-shaming and self-loathing/closet case accusations they consistently spew at the very same guys from which they apparently need help. Great way to go about getting it!” Poor baby…are we hurting your feelings? Honnnn we are so sorry. LOL
DarkZephyr
@Stefano: Some people confuse “douche shaming” with “masc shaming”. LOL
Windsor519
@PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID:
Prince of Snarkness brings up some valid points. We have two serious forces against us: because the internet has developed an even more throwaway, anonymous gay culture, why should men come out? Through this there are mixed signals and feelings of abandonment and rejection – something that lots of us never get over, considering how unsupportive and unsympathetic most gay men are. Where are our advocates? Where are the mentors to help us navigate this stuff? Second, we don’t operate as a united group (we’re all in this together). Go to pride and you’ll see mostly gay people who don’t like each other, are tired of seeing the same guys and definitely not attracted to other gay men.
That’s what separates us from other minority groups – much of our money and success has been used to build places that ensure isolation from the gay men we feel are unworthy of our time. When that attitude is within our community you end up with two groups of gay men – one that believes they deserve the best, their high incomes suggest they feel they deserve the best and won’t even look at a gay man who isn’t 100% their type. The other group are sick of this. They feel coming out was a huge mistake that’s ruined their life and made them lonelier. These are men who would make great partners despite not being rich or perfect. I think many of them discover that the constraints within the gay community and the unrealistic expectations have made their experience with other men worse than their closet days when they pretended not to be gay. Straight people get to grow up and develop a different set of priorities when it comes to dating. Gay men, since it’s so rare to find a stable connection, are still flailing and lost for most of their lives. Most of,can’t have kids so why grow up? In most states we can get married but where are we supposed to find that guy? If most our relationships have a 3 month to 2 year lifespan very few of us will experience the joys of being married.
Masc Pride
@Stefano: I think it’s absolutely adorable how you guys truly think your little fem gang ups are hurting anyone’s feelings. Girl power! LOL
I was simply saying that it demonstrates how truly crazy one has to be to expect help from the very people they like to personally attack. That’s all.
Stefano
@Dark Zephyr : funny. 🙂 i really like the comments of Masc Pride because he reminds me of a collegue at work who is a closet case. He talks exactly like him. He is always embarass when i’m around him because every one at work know i’m gay. He is very muscled and talks about women all the time and make jokes about effeminate men and women. He avoids any contacts with me. It is so funny to see him pretend that he is straight.
Pistolo
A lot of homophobia, more than even repressed homosexuality, is attributed to sexism. Anyone who dares to potentially take the role of submission, the classic role of a woman, is no longer a man and should hate themselves for it. They’re more accepting of trans people because they already view gay men as being basically castrated. Also, duh, it’s China! They have a woman shortage.
Stache99
@Pistolo: It’s the same as why Eunuchs were accepted back in ancient times because they posed no threats to their masters.
Webster definition: one that lacks virility or power
DarkZephyr
@Masc Pride: This “masc shaming” you keep talking about doesn’t exist, because who here hates masculinity? I sure don’t. Actual authentic masculine gay men (men of *noble* character as well as masculine traits and speech patterns) are hot, something I have ALWAYS maintained along with my attraction to feminine gay men who are in *no way* less hot, but if I actually DID want to “masc shame” a guy, I THINK I would want the guy to actually BE “masc” rather than a bitter harridan. I mean, its just logical.
Xzamilio
@Masc Pride: Now I know I must have a brain injury. You’re the only one I actually agree with on this topic
Saint Law
@Masc Pride: I haven’t read any of your posts on this thread – guessing that they will all be about your usual pet obsession…
Because that’s what a masculine man does apparently; goes shrilly on and on and on about ‘effeminate’ gay men in a bitchily defensive way, while wearing a big neon sign on his head that says: ‘Masculine’ – just to remind his listeners how, well, ‘masculine’ he is.
And he is you know. He really really is.
BECQueerty
Tim is not going to be happy with this report.
michael mellor
This is a bit rich considering most straight Chinese guys have no body hair. They look feminine. It takes years for them to grow a beard.
blackberry finn
@Masc Pride: Properly speaking, race (biology) has no part in the discussion. Attitudes toward sexuality are not encoded in the DNA. It’s culture and cultural practices that are important. Maybe it’s fair to talk about ethnic cultures but not races.
blackberry finn
@PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID: India is already a quasi-democracy on the road to recognition of LGBT rights. And as the Chinese people grow wealthier they’ll demand more participation in their government. There will be an easing up on its authoritarian, one party system, and an adoption of liberal democratic values. The Chinese want to be modern. So there is no reason to fear the future. As Westerners, “the only thing to fear” with respect to China “is fear itself”. Even though the West may becomes poorer, Western values (ideals), even though we have often not implemented them ourselves, are still the compass for the average world citizen, and will be for some time.
tdx3fan
@PRINCE OF SNARKNESS aka DIVKID: You should not type what you do not know. China has no desire to take us over. They need us much more than we need them. The reason we they have an economy that allows them to loan us money is that our corporations built it for them. We are now mostly moving out of China as well. Also, as much as Republicans try to claim otherwise in political strategy, the United States is at no risk of defaulting on its obligations.
tdx3fan
@Masc Pride: Except that the common gay man does not view being fem as negative. Only those obsessed with trying to appear as better than them because of their masculinity do. Perhaps you should research your history because the only reason your bigoted homophobic arse has any rights is because all those fems from stonewall to now have fought for them. Seeing yourself as the victim is what bigots do… homophobes don’t hate gays they just don’t like their religious liberties being attacked is common bigot victimiology.
DarkZephyr
@tdx3fan: *Thunderous Applause*
Menestratos
From what I read and heard, and based on this clip, the etiology of homophobia in China seems to be quite different than in our Western cultures. It appears that it has a lot to do with social conformity / cohesion (you shouldn’t try to stand out too much or blur social roles) and deeply ingrained Confucian ideals of filial piety (you should subordinate your own desires to the “good” of continuing the family legacy and honoring your ancestors). I suspect that our LGBT brothers and sisters in China (and other East Asian countries) have to choose completely different approaches to dismantling negative stereotypes than ours in the West. We definitely need to defer to their superior assessment of their own local challenges and need to be careful not to generalize too much from our (limited) Western perspective.
DerekR
I’ve read a lot of ridiculous sh!t here at Queerty from a lot of incredibly ridiculous people but this so called “masculine shaming” has got to be the stupidest load of crap yet.
And tdx3fan your summary is 110% correct.
Masc Pride
@DarkZephyr: If masc-shaming doesn’t exist, then the “fem-shaming” you’re always whining about doesn’t exist either. Last time you admitted that I haven’t said anything to generally bash fems, yet you continue to accuse me of doing so at some point in every conversation. You’re obviously confused.
@Xzamilio: Welcome to the reasonable side! Free of group think and ad hominem. Be prepared for DarkZephyr to accuse you of secretly being me on another account now that you’ve agreed with me on something. haha
@blackberry finn: That’s basically what I already said (reread the 2nd sentence of my OP).
@tdx3fan: That’s just your opinion. I know a lot of gay men, and the vast majority of them don’t really care for effeminate men or just don’t care about them at all, yet all acknowledge certain behaviors as stereotypical. We’ve obviously had very different experiences there. Fems haven’t done anything for me or my life (nor am I expecting them to). If you feel like effeminate men have done something to advance your well-being, please speak for yourself. I don’t need a history lesson to date/have sex with other guys, and I don’t owe fems anything. Get over yourself.
money718
Wow. I learn so much from the comments section lol.
Stefano
@Saint law : yep and he is still saying that his opinion is based on facts and opinions of others who disagree with him are s++t. He uses a lot of words that are interpretable like : “a lot”, ” vast majority”, ect. He really thinks we beleive him. LOL
jayj150
“Strangely, their attitudes toward bisexuals and transgender people seem to be more accepting. “They probably have a good reason for surgery,” one woman says, referring to transgender people. She added that she would not only be friends with a transgender person, but would openly accept a transgender relative’s decision to transition.”
There’s nothing strange about it, it makes perfect sense. Homophobic people tend to be very accepting of transsexuals because they see transsexualism as a way to get them to conform to their narrow view on gender roles. It’s crystal clear in this case: they admit they don’t necessarily have a problem with gay people in general, what they hate is those who stray outside of traditional gender-normativity: the effeminate men and the butch women. Transsexuals share their disdain for those people and prefer to ‘transition’ into the opposite gender so they can be perfectly ‘normal’ masculine men and feminine women.
It’s not strange that some of the most homophobic countries in the world, such as India and Iran(where children as young as 13 are publicly hanged for being gay) are also extremely trans-friendly to the point of subsidizing transitions and(as in the case of Iran) even forcing gay men to go trought it or face death.
Cee
They don’t even have freedom of speech in China. Chinese government will silence you if you speak out against them. China has their own problems. Not to mention the one kid rule and they prefer you have a baby boy instead of a girl. Oh, and if you think the US is crowded. Visit China sometime lol
Xzamilio
@Masc Pride: Look, I don’t agree with your entire outlook on feminine gay men, but I can’t help but notice that the ones trying to come down on you are just as pejorative when it comes to feminine gay men as well, as they see that inferring that you yourself are a “fem” is supposed to be an insult. Plus, the ganging up and the insults is really petty and validating your point, even though I’ll probably be on their side come next go around because you troll hard… and you know you do.
Masc Pride
@Xzamilio: Lol I really don’t. I’m actually quite serious (most of the time). What exactly is my “entire outlook on feminine gay men”?
Stefano
@Xzamilio : this is a gossip site. It is a certain group of people that makes comments here (we are maybe 20 people to wrote here regularly on this site, i don’t know exactly, i didn’t calculate). It doesn’t represente the whole gay “community” or anything. It does not prove anything. I think you take to site to seriously. Maybe you need a break.
Stefano
My french dictionary change some words…sorry for that. You should read : “…I think you take this site too seriously.” and sometimes i wrote in english like french too but at least i can speak and write in more than one language. 🙂
avesraggiana
@Stefano: What do call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual. What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Tri-lingual. What do you call someone who speaks one language, and not very well at that? An American.
Back off, girls! I’m an American too. Laughing at ourselves don’t hurt nobody…
Stefano
@avesraggiana : LOL i like It.
Stefano
@avesraggiana : i’m not an American (if you mean by that a US citizen). I’m from Rigaud, Quebec.
JennyFromdabloc
I wonder if these attitudes influence why gay Asian men rarely, if ever, date another Asian guy?
DarkZephyr
@Masc Pride: Your words are entirely illogical. Besides, you cannot point to one instance where anyone “masc shamed” you because nobody here thinks you are actually “masc” and most of the guys you keep accusing of “masc” shaming you have no problem with masculine men, many of them ARE masculine men.
@Xzamilio: Who implied that Masc Pride was feminine? Me because I deny that he is masculine? An absence of masculinity does not mean the presence of femininity. In my eyes, authentic masculinity and authentic femininity are both positive traits and each have important things to offer that are good, this is something that I have always maintained. Never once have I declared that I thought Masc was ANYTHING so noble as authentically feminine. I just don’t think he’s masculine, because truly masculine men have NO need to denigrate their feminine brothers. No need whatsoever.
Masc Pride
You just did it. Another instance would be denying masc-shaming exists at all. Same way people who deny r cism exists are usually r cists themselves. Your response to Xzamilio is yet another instance because calling a male a harridan shows you’re clearly implying femininity; do you not know the definition of the word? Nice try, but you’re guilty of the very thing you accuse me of, which makes you a hypocrite. I don’t mind your incessantly expressing I fall short of your definition of masculinity (because that’s your right), but you’re so fake it’s pathetic. You’re still salty over a conversation I had with another user MONTHS ago, and you interpret the fact that “masc” is a part of my screen name as automatic fem-bashing. You’re the most transparent user on this site, and that’s saying A LOT.
DarkZephyr
@Masc Pride: “You just did it.”
Not at all.
“Your response to Xzamilio is yet another instance because calling a male a harridan shows you’re clearly implying femininity; do you not know the definition of the word?”
Given what we usually talk about when we have exchanges, this is ALMOST funny.
You act exactly like a bitter harridan, that is NOT the same as me calling you anything so noble as “feminine”. A harridan IS a cantankerous old nasty woman, but the sex isn’t the point, if sex by itself determined femininity or masculinity, we wouldn’t even have over half of our little exchanges, now, would we? You seem to forget yourself. Its the old nasty bitter part that makes you like a harridan, not femininity.
“Nice try, but you’re guilty of the very thing you accuse me of, which makes you a hypocrite.”
Not in the slightest bit. You are merely projecting your own narrow outlook on gender and sex onto me. I reject it.
“but you’re so fake it’s pathetic.”
Projecting.
“You’re still salty over a conversation I had with another user MONTHS ago, and you interpret the fact that “masc” is a part of my screen name as automatic fem-bashing.”
Interesting theory. Sounds like you are very salty about that.
“You’re the most transparent user on this site, and that’s saying A LOT.”
Nah.
Masc Pride
@DarkZephyr: Too late for your usual word games. You’ve already put your hypocrisy in writing, and I’m obviously not the only one who notices you’re full of it. Like Xzamilio pointed out here, you’re doing the same thing you constantly accuse me of doing. As john.k pointed out in the Chip Sarafin story, you’re very sensitive and quick to attack people for things they never said. So much for all your “fem nobility”. Things I’ve said about you all along….
DarkZephyr
@Masc Pride: Its not “too late” to merely state the facts as they have been the entire time. Your imagination not withstanding. You can keep on projecting but I won’t be accepting. 😉
Brian
I’m left wondering how many of these were original thoughts and beliefs versus those encouraged by the sole political party (which limits media like Internet and newspapers). How much of the problem is the fact that they’re brainwashed? And how much can we blame them for that?
Masc Pride
@DarkZephyr: No one’s buying it, but keep on trying. lol
@Brian: Exactly!