Bette Midler has been a staunch LGBTQ ally since the earliest days of her career, when she used to perform at the Continental Baths in New York City.
Therefore, a tweet she posted yesterday has left many of her LGBTQ fans disappointed.
Midler tweeted, “WOMEN OF THE WORLD! We are being stripped of our rights over our bodies, our lives and even of our name! They don’t call us “women” anymore; they call us “birthing people” or “menstruators”, and even “people with vaginas”! Don’t let them erase you! Every human on earth owes you!”
It’s not clear what prompted the tweet. However, on Sunday the New York Times published an opinion piece that touched on the same subject. Written by Pamela Paul, it criticized the use of terms such as “birthing people” and “menstruators”. It’s possible Midler read it.
How about we take this to the next level?
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At the time of writing, Midler’s tweet has had over 78k likes and 13k retweets. For many of her followers, the tweet came as a shock. It reminded some of author JK Rowling, who previously tweeted a dismissive reaction to the term “people who menstruate”.
Related: Bette Midler, Madonna, Mariah Carey and others slam SCOTUS ruling
Inclusive language such as “menstruators” and “birthing people” has been adopted by some people and organizations, such as Planned Parenthood and the American Civil Liberties Union, to ensure non-binary and transmen feel included in conversations about reproductive health.
Online, many of those reacting expressed disappointment and urged Midler not to fall for arguments that claim you can’t support both trans rights and women’s rights.
Writer Roxanne Gay was among those to criticize Midler’s tweet, saying, “No one is trying to erase women with inclusive language about people who need abortion care. No one is calling you anything but what you prefer. You should extend that courtesy in return.”
No one is trying to erase women with inclusive language about people who need abortion care. No one is calling you anything but what you prefer. You should extend that courtesy in return.
— roxane gay (@rgay) July 5, 2022
Here are a few of the other responses.
No. Don’t fall for the anti-trans panic fake nonsense. No one is erasing women. In a few small healthcare cases where appropriate they are using trans inclusive language. That’s all.
— Dr Panti Bliss-Cabrera (@PantiBliss) July 4, 2022
Really disappointed in this as a trans man and a Bette Midler fan.
Bette, including trans men in the conversation about reproductive health does not harm women. We have the same organs, and even greater vulnerability, as cis woman.
— Evan Urquhart (@e_urq) July 4, 2022
Bette, as a fan, seeing this tweet from you is just heartbreaking. The point of the anti-choice movement is to try and control the bodies of people assigned female at birth, including trans men, and force gender identities and gender roles on *all* of us.
— The Disordered Cosmos by Chanda Prescod-Weinstein (@IBJIYONGI) July 4, 2022
It’s because not only women menstruate, give birth, or have vaginas. Trans men do all of these things, as do non-binary folks. I love you so much, Bette, but you gotta do better here.
— Abbey Rogue (@AbbeyRogue01) July 4, 2022
With all due respect, Bette, trans-inclusive language doesn’t take anything away from us.
— Julie DiCaro wrote a book (@JulieDiCaro) July 4, 2022
The fight for women’s rights INCLUDES trans people – trans rights do not erode women’s rights. We’re all fighting this together and this trans-exclusionary rhetoric does NOTHING to help that.
Bette – you are a woman. Some other people who give birth are not women. That’s ok!
— Crystal | Black Lives Matter (@crystalwillseeu) July 4, 2022
Related: The Sanderson Sisters Return in ‘Hocus Pocus 2’
Among the thousands of responses were many supporting Midler’s apparent viewpoint. One of those to respond was tennis player Martina Navratilova, who has faced accusations of transphobia for questioning the place trans women occupy in women’s sport.
Navratilova tweeted, “Careful Bette- you will be called transphobic too or worse…😱😱”
Careful Bette- you will be called transphobic too or worse…😱😱😱 https://t.co/jp6PnB8LlT
— Martina Navratilova (@Martina) July 4, 2022
GlobeTrotter
You go Bette! It’s a travesty to see how women are being slowly but surely erased and reduced to “birthing people” in the name of trans ideology. This is not what I fought for all those years ago in college marching up and down our campus protesting for equal rights for women. Society has made so much progress in women’s rights and now they’re under attack again, but this time from men dressed as women. Men are now taking over women’s sports, winning all the women’s trophies and scholarships, even winning “woman of the year” awards – pushing women once again to the back of the bus. But this time, feminists are ironically paralyzed and silenced in the name of political correctness and cancel culture. What a sad commentary on the current state of affairs!
phenom
Cis women are being reduced to breeding machines by the republican party and by terfs like Rowling and yourself! Remembering that trans men exist, and they can menstruate which means they can get pregnant and give birth, and you’ll realize this language isn’t about erasing anyone its about including the people who have already been erased! So much so that you, and Better, are so unaware that this language is used to include them in the conversations they are usually left out of!
Mario
Macy Gray: “Just because you go change your parts doesn’t make you a woman.” Gray then went on to add that people shouldn’t, “be called transphobic just because you don’t agree.”
Mario
I guess the left and the Democrats are willing to die on the hill fighting for transgender fascism.
cuteguy
Whatever happened to equal rights? Didn’t women complain for generations to be treated equal? Now when it’s not convenient they are fighting against it. What gives?
mikhailmaui
Have to disagree with phenom. When women are told they cannot use the term “woman or women” as it is “anti-trans” that is b.s. Sorry, but my mother is a woman, not a ‘birthing people’. I respect whatever anyone wants to be called, as confusing as it is, but once we start bashing others for using woman or women and calling it anti-trans we have a problem.
basils_Herald
Midler and Rowling are not the queer community’s political enemies (thank you, SCOTUS!), even if they make transphobic remarks in order to remain relevant. Midler has been supportive of queer people, even trans people, when it was not advantageous for her. At times Rowling seems guilty of corporate rainbow-washing, but I honestly believe she self-censored Dumbledore initially because she started writing Harry Potter in the early 1990s (Sir Ian McKellen himself had only publicly come out in 1988 – times were different). I don’t mean to be an apologist for either of them. Their remarks are their own and you can judge them for yourselves. I just wish there was more mutual respect by Queer icons and the next generation of Queers, because we are united in our struggles. Cis women are under attack and so are all Queer people. We’re only going to make progress by working together. Inflammatory remarks and shouting into the void of the internet aren’t going to change anything or help anyone. It’s important that we remember the perspectives of earlier feminists, so we can avoid making similar mistakes. There will come a day when a younger generation of Queers remarks “eww, thats x-phobic” or “modernist BS” at something we commonly accept today. We are not defined by our perspective but by our ability to evolve our perspective.
MystiRivers
Bette Midler, and thousands of centuries of human biology, aren’t wrong.
phenom
You don’t understand human biology, development biology, psychology, or sociology as much as you think you do. Recognize that you’re just ignorant – an easy thing to fix!
LumpyPillows
@phenom, alas, it is your shallow understanding of the wide variety of men and women that forces you to create these imaginary genders. Everyone is different. Everyone is not their own gender.
LumpyPillows
I think it’s time to stand up to this asinine gender attack on rationality. Bette is correct, as usual. Not only is this insulting to the vast majority or people, and this will never change, it is wrong and it undermines our efforts for equality. Trans women are not women. Stop the mental and verbal gymnastics to try and make a lie truth. Stop trying to bully people into agreeing with something that is clearly wrong.
You can be a trans woman, and I have no problem with that, but you are not a woman. You aren’t. You never will be. Maybe if someone told you this before you changed your body you might not have done it. The more I see this effort progress the more I think there are a lot of people with mental disorders that we have somehow green lighted.
phenom
Trans men exist, and some trans men still menstruate and may even need an abortion one day. Inclusive language is to include all people, regardless of gender, who need this care and these rights. Its not about erasing women, its about including the people who do not identify as women but who still need this care.
Diplomat
I have no problem if someone is trans or non-binary. It’s when they start shoving terms on the masses that are totally annoying (birthers they them etc) that people’s ire gets riled. Get terms we can all agree on instead of making yourselves spectacles of irrational thought. You’re just being rediculous.
LumpyPillows
@phenom thanks for making my point. Trans men are not men. I fully support trans people getting medical care. But they are what they are.
747jumbojet
Yes!!! You’re ABSOLUTELY correct, Bette. These “new” words are utter NONSENSE!!!! And they diminish woman….NOT on my watch!!!
stonercharles
agreed!!!
Sqwoah
Thank you for being the adult in the room Bette!
lykeitiz
Trans and non-binary people deserve respect and inclusion, however they are NOT going to re-write the English language or change the nature of biology.
I have accepted my new label as a “cisgender” man for the sake of trans-inclusion, however I will not now, or ever, refer to anyone as “they”, because “they” is plural. I will however, respect someone’s preferred/chosen gender pronoun. If they choose not to identify, then they can make up another term the way they made up “cisgender”, because again, “they” is plural.
Men biologically born as male have a genetic advantage over women in sports, and should not compete. Period.
Bette Midler is correct. These things are fact, and won’t change.
LeBlevsez
Re-read your own post, lykeitiz, and marvel in your own use of the singular ‘they’ whilst railing against the existance of the singular ‘they’.
abfab
The right wing seems to enjoy scolding people who are going thru changes, attempting to live the life they choose. They will keep pushing back. Thank you PHENOM for all the words you wrote. It’s sad, but we will have a hard time bringing those around to what’s too, too difficult for them. Love and understanding.
Diplomat
You mean you’re having a hard time shoving word salad down our throats bc we lack love and understanding. Yeah right. Get real.
LumpyPillows
Or could it be that you’re all a bit disconnected from reality? Live the life you choose, but you don’t get to reinvent my world to do it.
Mario
Right wing?
Bette Midler is not right wing. On the contrary, she is thoroughly in the left wing orbit. Therefore, the left is attacking this nonsense as much as the right is.
RyanAAD92
Bette is a liberal. Liberals, especially from her era, are centrists that at best want marginal change (at no inconvenience to them) and at worst maintain the status quo at all cost.
My issue with Bette isn’t her uninformed opinion, it’s the fact that she is using her time and influence on worthless culture war distractions.
The corrupt Supreme Court is out here acting like a pantheon of gods and eroding away rights and here we have rich boomers discussing the latest facebook manufactured scare tactic. Like, at least throw a shut out to PP helping people in states with abortion bans or something.
Me2
@RyanAAD92 Your summation of boomer liberals is SPOT ON!! But even if Bette hadn’t publicly voiced her opinion, the culture war has already divided Democrats. Trans rights is not an issue that most Democrats can even wrap their heads around, muchless have an informed discussion about. But somehow special interest groups have tried to make trans rights a top priority for Dems. The issue isn’t Bette, the issue is the impatient trans activists who want to fast track acceptance and changes that would typically take years to happen.
Observant
She’s not wrong.
And watch them come for her. One can support the trans community without marching in lockstep to every insisted upon change in nomenclature. Trans women are trans women—people that we can recognize, honor, and defend from bigotry and violence. They’re equal to but not the same as biological women. The breakdown in support comes when the trans community insists that you must perceive them as they perceive themselves, and adopt the language they feel best erases any differences between transgender women and women. But the fact is you cannot demand, legislate, or intimidate others into sharing your self-perceptions. You might educate them to better understand and respect your life experience, but everyone is entitled to their own perceptions, which must, in turn be respected.
Rambeaux
She sat down with her accounting firm and decided that it is okay to join the “Rowling Club”.
She has so much money, she can say anything.
LumpyPillows
So, if she has so much money she can say anything, then she is immune from you bullies. Kind of makes our point, doesn’t it? I mean, why would these rich, powerful and popular women say these things? They clearly are not right wing trolls. Is it because they truly believe they are correct and you are harmful to society? I wonder.
monty clift
Knew she was a c u n t when she made her snide comments about gay rights, right after her abortion rights were taken away… not like she’d need one at her age.
nm4047
@monty clift, maybe elaborate on the ‘snide comments’ what are your snide comments referencing?
Diplomat
Monty Clift,
You’re a complete disgrace to one of America’s highly adored actors. Please retire that name. You don’t deserve it.
abfab
And there it is, PHENOM. Anger and frustration. They can’t help themselves. Very toxic people commenting here..per usual.
Chrisk
I don’t hear anger or frustration in the comments. Just another person’s POV. You’re free to disagree.
inbama
Very brave.
The twitter mob will be endlessly attacking, lying about her and trying to get her cancelled as they do Rowling.
abfab
This isn’t really about The Divine Miss M. Someday you’ll look back and realize what assholes you were for being so afraid. Shoving? Really? Evolve, grow up or at least open your eyes and your mind. Just live and let live….if you can.
monty clift
There’s absolutely NOTHING brave here. The dumb b*tch fell hard for TERF rhetoric. JK Rowling was always a C U N T.
LumpyPillows
Ah, Monty, name calling is the sign of a small mind who has already lost the debate.
Andrew
“Some people use terms like “pregnant people” instead of “pregnant women” in order to acknowledge that transgender and nonbinary people who do not identify as women can also get pregnant and give birth.”
I read this as a statement about abortion rights and being inclusive of all women trans or not.
abfab
RIght on, Andrew! Have you watched THE JANES yet? Remarkable.
still_onthemark
“…being inclusive of all women trans or not.”
You’re being inclusive of all women by refusing to use the word “woman”? Really?
Trans women generally aren’t able to get pregnant at all. We’re discussing trans MEN who can get pregnant.
The “inclusive” lingo isn’t inclusive of cisgender women. It very pointedly EXCLUDES them, even though they are the overwhelming majority (as in 99.99999%) of pregnancies.
Andrew
Chill out Still on the mark. I think she was referring to anyone who can get pregnant should have the right to choose for their health including trans people who identify as male and not trans people who identify as female. Now I could be wrong, but that is what I read.
Andrew
Abfab thanks for the recommendation
Ari
Every time we use a term like “birthing people” we lose a congressional seat and an ally. Just stop.
Also, gays and lesbians would be better off if the T were not part of LGB. Trans people would have been better off, too.
abfab
No Ari, YOU would be better off.
RyanAAD92
Sure. Willingly weaken your political power in the name of respectability politics. No big deal.
We should be happy to give fascists their scapegoats. Surely they won’t come for LGB when they’re done with T.
Those face eating leopards surely won’t eat my face.
moretruth
Bette’s correct, Macy Gray is correct. jK is correct. Doesn’t mean they’re anti-trans. Just means they are realists and won’t submit to nonsensical radical ideology. And you can’t bully me into referring to myself as “cis.” The word salad pushers are destroying the gains LGBT people have made in the past 50 years. The horrific “Don’t say gay” bills were brought on by this militant trans overreach, which is likely hurting trans people the most.
MystiRivers
If you menstruate, then you are, by definition, a biological female and not a male. Denying that puts you in the same camp as people who deny the scientific facts on evolution, climate change and vaccinations. If that’s where you choose to be, then great but you can’t make that choice for me or anyone else.
abfab
No one is making or shoving that choice on you.
UlfRaynor
abfab- if that is true then why have trans activist pushed for and have bullied formerly gay organizations such as Stonewall, GLAAD, HRC and even The Trevor Project to change their mission statements from same sex attracted people to same gender attracted people?
Sexual orientation is a sex attraction not a gender ideological one.
It’s homophobic, misogynistic, heterophobic and misandrist all rolled up in one.
Here’s the thing, you have to show respect to get respect and trans activist show absolutely no respect for anyone and serve only their own interest.
Cam
Whenever there is ANY posting about Trans people, I can always count on the right wing troll Mario to come in under at LEAST 5 different screenames to post attacks.
We get it sweetie, you right wing bigots learned that Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, etc… are polling high enough that your attacks on them aren’t working as well so you’re desperately trying to fling everything you’ve got at trans people.
Your attacks will do for them what your attacks on same sex marriage did for gays and lesbians…..people will see you for the soilless bigots you are and sympathize with the targets of your hate.
As always, your troll game is sad and weak.
abfab
RIGHT WING TROLL! LOL HOW REDUNDANT! And MARIA, the empty headed troll/he/she/they/them (okay, now I’m shoving it down your throat) thought the only true wrestling was the WWE. Waste product that she is.
marxist_homo
And every time there is ANY comment that you don’t like, we can count on you, Cam, to post some stupid, condescending reply accusing everyone of being part of a shadowy right-wing conspiracy to infiltrate this site.
Your gender dysphoria is clearly interfering with your cognitive functioning.
LumpyPillows
Cam, is it so hard for you to believe so many of us disagree with the leftist gender war? Could we really all be just one evil villain? They’ve been trying to cut the balls off men for decades. Oddly they are succeeding with the support of some men, like you.
Leave little gay boys alone. Let them wear dresses and play with makeup. Don’t turn them into eunuchs for your social engineering games.
abfab
He’s accusing everyone? God you’re paranoid. And please, save the word stupid. One day you’ll find that that’s you.
MystiRivers
You’re not very smart, are you?
surfnspy
In this country we have two political parties who win and make decisions about how we live our lives.
That’s it.
Either a democrat is going to win or a republican.
The fact that democrats insist on dividing itself with humorless self policing means more people will drift to the right and more rights will be lost.
It’s probably true, that we should use the word fire fighter instead of fireman. We should use they pronouns for those who are binary. We should admit that in some cases men menstruate and could give birth. But the litmus test and subsequent vilification of those who can’t get their heads around all of this is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We all end up losing. The supreme court could become even more conservative. Marriage equality could be cancelled in many states very soon. This is not paranoia. Now that roe is overturned, this will only embolden the right while the left crumbles under its own infighting.
Frustrating.
still_onthemark
Do any transmen clamor for this “inclusive” language?
We (cisgender gay people) get it, a tiny group of transmen can theoretically get pregnant. So how many of them actually do get pregnant – a dozen a year? Two dozen? An insignificant number compared to the tens of millions of cisgender women who get pregnant.
An analogy: Men can get breast cancer, and they tend to get overlooked even by medical professionals. Only about 1% of breast cancer patients are male, but that amounts to THOUSANDS more men than the infinitesimal group of transmen who can get pregnant. You’d never know it, though, from all the pink-colored graphics and female-focused info about breast cancer. Men hardly ever get mentioned in that discussion. Understandable, but this omission can have serious and even fatal consequences for thousands. Compared to male breast cancer, pregnant transmen are hardly even a “thing.”
Are ANY trans people clamoring for this “pregnant people” stuff? It always seems to come from SJW types who are somehow more upset than the actual “victims,” if any. Pregnant transmen are surely aware they are a tiny group, and they probably don’t seriously expect the whole world to rearrange the language for their (theoretical) sake.
bbg372
Less than 1% of all people are transgender, and approximately half of transgender people have female bodies. So we are expected to change the language used to describe the vast majority of people with female bodies—99.995%—to be inclusive of the extreme outlier—0.005%? It is nonsense. Transgender men and non-binary folks should be mature enough to recognize that they are exceptions to the rule, and that they are not being excluded, because others are not being marginalized to make them feel validated.
abfab
The PINK DYE used for breast cancer awareness causes cancer. It also pollutes waterways near the chemical plants, which we then drink. And then the apparell usually ends up in the oceans. Just saying.
inbama
No problem with the pink dye in the trans flag or the so-called “progress flag?”
You guys just hate real women.
abfab
Okay, sorry, you’re right. I have a problem with all artificial dyes. Really! Oh, and I don’t hate women…..just some, such as Perjury Taylor Green and Ginni gin gin. Oh, and Ivanka and Boobert…too many right wing witches to name.
missvamp
one of my friends went on a tirade about her today, calling her a terf. omfg- leave the old, out of touch woman alone. she probably just didn’t understand that it applied to trans people & regrets it now.
DarkZephyr
I am going to take a “wait and see” approach about this. Several people on both sides of the issue are jumping to conclusions. Some are attacking her as the American J.K. Rowling and then there are those on the right who usually call her a “libtard” or a “has been” and other awful names that are suddenly hailing her as a hero because they believe she’s Anti-Trans. Or sorry, they suddenly think that she “just disagrees” with people being Trans.
moretruth
Bette’s correct, Macy Gray is correct. jK is correct. Doesn’t mean they’re anti-trans. Just means they are realists and won’t submit to nonsensical radical ideology. And you can’t bully me into referring to myself as “cis.” The word salad pushers are destroying the gains LGBT people have made in the past 50 years. The horrific “Don’t say gay” bills were brought on by this militant trans overreach, which is likely hurting trans people the most.
LumpyPillows
Bingo.
Marsh Parker
A subset of a subset of a subset of a subset has their boxers/panties in a twist over menstruation. If you are a “transman” you willingly give up your right to claim your “femaleness.” wasn’t that the point? “Living your truth,” as a man?
BTW, the “boomers” you wankers are so ready to trash?
Those people marched, fought, wrote checks and voted so that twinkie queens can enjoy the rights they take for granted today.
Those people were at the bedsides of thousands of gay men who would otherwise have died of AIDS alone and forgotten at the worst of the plague. So keep a civil tongue in your head.
Straight allies and lesbians carried our water when we needed them most, so how about a little respect?
Trans is just the flavor-of-the-month. Next month is will be an even smaller group claiming the spotlight.
Meanwhile the radical right just laughs at you all the way to the ballot box.
If i have to decide where to spend my time, money and energy, it’s going to be on issues that affect ALL of America like voting rights, gun control, public health, marriage equality, race and choice.
Not the .000000001 of people who want to be a different gender. Let your freak flag fly but pardon us if not everyone salutes.
LumpyPillows
Bingo.
Bosch
Trans extremists didn’t come out of the woodwork until transphohia became trendy again. Go back to one month before Trump’s transgender ban, you’ll find NO ONE talking about which bathroom or which sports team trans people should be using.
Ken A.
Can’t wait to see her in Hocus Pocus 2 or the series. I agree with her, do we need such language, of course she doesn’t have to use it. I don’t and that is our right. I don’t include everyone, no one does and if they say they do they’re lying or just virtue signaling. I don’t use CIS, BIRTHING PEOPLE, PENIS OWNERS Etc.
abfab
And you’re bragging about that? Your parents must be so proud of you.
radiooutmike
Funny to see some of the gays here suddenly worried about cis-women’s rights. Bless your heart, you phonies.
still_onthemark
You must know a lot of pregnant transmen in order to make such a sweeping statement!
mastik8
Does anyone have the notes from the meetings where cisgendered women agreed to these terms?
tallskin4
I am overjoyed, cos I think this is a tipping point and gays will wake up (finally) and reject tranzie-gender-woo-woo b0llocks.
Guys, you cannot change your sex, no matter how hard you try
MystiRivers
Agreed. Some of these people are seriously mentally disordered.
Bosch
That’s why we call them transGENDER, not transSEXUAL.
Bosch
I gave you a very simple explanation of the biology of “tranzie-gender-woo-woo b0llocks”.
I see you’re one of those people who discards science if it doesn’t fit your beliefs.
LumpyPillows
Trans whatever. Be a trans woman. I’ll support you, but you are not a woman.
dale hankins
maybe I am missing something or there was another Tweet, but the Tweet that is in the article does not specify who she is Tweeting about. Granted women are being “stripped” of their rights over their own bodies, but it is the radical religious right-eous people that are basically trying to turn women in to baby making factories, with reversing Roe v Wade and wanting to ban contraception
bachy
The hard sciences – Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Astronomy, Geology and Meteorology – have been used now for centuries as the basis of reality. If you believe something that is invalidated by the hard sciences, it’s a good bet that you’re wrong.
The transgender movement believes that gender should be based on ‘feeling’ – and not on Biology. They believe that the body should be “corrected” to match the “feeling” – and not vice-versa. OK, fine. It’s your body and your life, maybe that’s something you need to do.
But to demand that the entire world rename and recategorize the sexes to validate your idiosyncratic perceptions is going to be met with legitimate opposition. You can’t demand that the general population jettison the hard sciences to accommodate unproven fringe beliefs.
It’s similar to the flat-earthers.
abfab
No it’s not. Why do you feel so persecuted by this anyway? Honestly. Some of us would really like to know.
Diplomat
abfab…
Right now you look like annoying attention seekers. Maybe you like that. I think what we’d all like to know is why you pick volatile terms and pronouns etc to describe yourselves. You must know you’re throwing gas on the fire. Why do that?
Bosch
Regardless of what tran individuals believe, it’s not a feeling. It’s a specific configuration that results in the brain and the reproductive system having physically different sexes.
We don’t have a place in society for men with vaginas and women with penises, so they transition their bodies in an attempt to conform with the rest of us.
The sexes aren’t being recategorized; there is a reason that the medical community insists on keeping “sex” and “gender” separate, and it’s for this same reason that we now refer to trans people as transgender instead of transsexual.
I guarantee, 99% of the trans extremists are teenagers, and teenagers are just plain not smart.
LumpyPillows
Bosch, can you prove that? I’ve not found compelling science on this.
dbmcvey
She’s got a point. That sounds insulting.
Marsh Parker
So after reading some of the thread on here, I admit i’m torn on a subject.
75 years ago, gay people were “the other,” meaning a minority of a minority. We marched, we voted, we wrote checks, we volunteered. Our progress was slow.
Then the plague hit, which was a changing point on a lot of different levels. It brought out the old prejudices, and shown a light on it for exactly the ugly thing it was.
We lost an entire generation of pioneers.
In the last 40 years, as a group, gay people have come a long way and asserted our rights to claim our equality.
I deliberately use the word gay, meaning same sex attraction. I have nothing in common with “bisexual” people, and even less with trans. My initial thought has always been “get your own damn parade.”
I find this whole trans thing to be exhausting. From Drag Race to this whole menstratiinal blow-up I’m tired of being hammered with it, and worse yet, being roasted for the fact that I’m not being supportive enough.
But i have to ask, were gay people in the 70s as demanding as trans people are today? Or are they just so amped up on social media that they don’t understand that these, or any, issues don’t change overnight?
Im all for “living your truth” but this feels like it’s spinning out of control.
Or am I just being an insensitive jag?
DarkZephyr
I think many of the anti-trans posters here are blowing this waaaay out of proportion. Women are not being called “people who give birth”, “people with vaginas” or “menstruators” on a regular basis or in daily conversation. These terms are being used simply when they make sense for very specific subjects. I see nothing unreasonable about that.
Trans men do not want to be called “women” and trans women do not want to be called “men”, regardless of what people think when it comes to the science. Whether or not one thinks that people can “change their sex” or not, trans people STILL do not want to be called by the gender they do not identify with. It brings many of them pain. Serious pain. What is SO terrible about being sensitive to that and respecting that? In very certain, specific cases, choices have been made to be sensitive to that. This is not an attack on women. The outrage over it is *ridiculous*.
I have a friend who does not believe that you can change your sex or gender or that trans people are really assigned the wrong sex or gender at birth. BUT she still respects their wishes and calls them what they want to be called and uses the pronouns that they prefer. Doing this has not caused her to be struck by lightening, it has not erased her womanhood and it has not harmed her in any way. Despite not agreeing with trans related science, she still has respect. What is so hard about that?
Many in our community have come to resemble the homophobes from 75 years ago and 40 years ago. “Its unnatural”, “you can’t ignore science”. Have you forgotten the arguments of people like Dr. Laura Schlessinger calling us “biological errors”?
We have some posters in this comment section DELIGHTING in things going sh***y for trans people. Its sick.
You say “get your own damned parade” but Trans people and bisexuals have been marching with us from the very beginning, these parades ARE their parades.
Diplomat
Dark
“Women are not being called “people who give birth”, “people with vaginas” or “menstruators” on a regular basis or in daily conversation.”
The problem is that these terms are insulting to real women which trans men are but don’t mentally see it that way. The easy fix is to find terms that don’t incite, but these people don’t want to work with us. They senselessly barf on society. Terrible PR.
Bosch
“were gay people in the 70s as demanding as trans people are today?”
If we had had Twitter in the 70s, then yes, teenagers would have hijacked the conversation, and we would see the same level of entitlement.
This is what happens when the conversation is led by the loudest and angriest of the groups.
But even still, the homophobes in the 70s already thought we were demanding. We were attention-seekers at best, and wastes if skin at worst.
The real question here, is why are so many people angry about such a small percentage of the population? And is it significant that this current wave if anger started at the same time as Trump’s trans military ban?
Bosch
@diplomat
“The problem is that these terms are insulting to real women”
They’ve been told to feel insulted by then. “People with vaginas” doesn’t mean “women”, it means “women and trans-men”. “People who give birth” means “women and trans-men”.
They’re not replacements of old words, they’re an expanded set, for use in specific situations.
Without these terms, how do you refer to a pregnant transman? If we say “pregnant man”, transphobes get upset. If we say “pregnant women”, then pregnant trans-men get upset. So we land on the least offensive descriptor for trans men. And yet, people have taken this label, which is specifically not about cis women, to be offensive to cis women.
LumpyPillows
No. It is insulting. It’s also mind numbingly stupid.
Diplomat
Then trans men need to deal with it. Not the rest of society. We have rejected these terms. It’s that simple.
Joshooeerr
It ought to be obvious from the comments here that the vast majority entirely agrees with Bette and sees no controversy in what she said. And the attempts to turn it into a divisive controversy really are sad, and… one could say mischievous, but evil might not be too strong a word. Why doesn’t Queerty do something useful for a change and perhaps explore the divisions within the trans community and discover why not even all trans people agree with this kind of nutty activism. You could start with someone like the highly esteemed Kate Bornstein, who has never gone along with this crazy “trans women are real women” nonsense. Or maybe look at the many cultures through time and around the world who have accepted trans people without needing to pretend that they are anything other than trans. But I’m guessing Queerty – like a lot of media – sees more mileage in the division and the anger, than in moving toward something more enlightened.
Bosch
I think the controversy isn’t in what Bette said, but in the fact that she believes women are under attack. The biggest threat to women right now is SCOTUS, and not how a pregnant transman would like to be referred to when he’s in a clinic.
LumpyPillows
Bette’s a woman. Perhaps we’ll take her word over yours. When did you get to tell women how they should feel?
DuMaurier
As far as I know Midler hasn’t yet addressed this social media tempest, so maybe I shouldn’t be presumptuous; but to me the likeliest explanation is that her tweet didn’t have anything to do with trans people at all. I’m guessing she thought phrases like “birthing people”, “mestruators”, etc, were reactionary “Handmaid’s Tale” terms designed to dehumanize women and reduce them to “parts” and “functions”.
nm4047
Bette’s support was as an ally of the GL (& B) community. Slowly over the decades, the addition has just somehow crept in. The VAST majority of gays and lesbians don’t identify as TQi etc.
leo1008
The Trans Rights movement vastly overreached when it attempted to dispense with words like “women” or “woman.” And this story about Bette Midler is (or should be) just the latest canary in the coal mine;
think about it: just how far out there does a supposedly LGBT movement have to go before someone like Bette Midler calls it out for its blatant extremism? The answer: pretty damn far.
If you’ve lost Bette Midler, you’re now officially an extremist. The problem isn’t her, it’s you.
bachy
Thank you!
Bosch
“The Trans Rights movement vastly overreached when it attempted to dispense with words like “women” or “woman.””
But when did this happen?
McSteve
Movements evolve, so does language. In the early 60’s, the organizers of the first ‘homosexual rights’ marches at Independence Hall required that the women wear dresses and the men wear suit and tie. They wanted to appear like mainstream society.
Then in the 70’s, many gay men were mortified by public flamboyance from gay men or butch lesbians at places like pride parades and elsewhere, they were adamant that it was hurting our cause. But people chose to live authentically, an our cause advanced.
Trans folks have always been a part of this movement and, more than ever, choose to live authentically and demand visibility and recognition like those who came before. The movement is evolving and the language is evolving, even if some of the people aren’t.
abfab
Thank you McSteve. The kids here who think we’ve lost Bette and I do mean kids, seem most feeble minded and presumptuous. It also seems that the people they are bashing because they are different and grabbing hold of the one chance at life, they know little of. They don’t really know any. They read about them. We all need support. Stay positive people. These words will never hurt you.
leo1008
While it is certainly true that movements and societies evolve, it’s also true that they sometimes take wrong turns. There are some fairly obvious examples from recent history: on the far right end of the political/social spectrum, Republicans and Social (so-called) Conservatives pretty obviously went down a rabbit hole by supporting Donald Trump, Q-anon, and the 2020 “stolen” election conspiracy theories.
Websites like this one, and left-leaning Liberals in general, call out the Far Right for its obvious wrong turns, and we’re entirely justified in doing so. Nevertheless, and no matter how difficult it may be at times to accept, we also need to call out the wrong turns on our own side. And the extremism seen in the Trans movement is a good example. The very fact that I even need to point out the scientific concept of biological males and biological females is a case in point. The Left has spent the last two years justifiably lambasting the Right for its refusal to accept the science behind Covid vaccines; yet quite a few on the Left then turn around and deny (biological) science when it conflicts with the own extreme (Trans) ideology.
The problem is not that people like Bette Midler (and the overwhelmingly vast majority of people – and VOTERS – across the country) have failed to evolve; the problem is that the Trans movement has 1.) taken a very sharp wrong turn, and 2.) refuses to admit or in any way recognize that fact. Trans extremists are still very much in the denial and or anger stages of this controversy which they have already lost. Some day, they will reach acceptance.
LeBlevsez
leo1008 –
Politicizing Covid resulted in hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths.
Advocating for Trans rights has not required a single bandaid.
False equivalence.
Mario
WOW!
Watch the leftists destroy each other over trans fascism.
abfab
Please save our souls, Saint Maria.
Diplomat
Not really. We LGBs easy majority agree the trans movement is a floating turd in a murky swamp. Unfortunately they have smeared the gay community with their obsessive anti rational idealism. If there were a vote today to remove T from LGBT, it would be an easy win. No one is destroying each other. The majority of LGBs never wanted them around in the first place. But darn, did we get a vote? No! And that’s bs.
Diplomat
Mario,
But I will say it’s a popcorn and coke cinerama movie watching the Rs destroy Trump, the Republican party and the infighting that’s transpired. My offer for a coffee still stands when you lose in 24. Cream and sugar?
judysdad
I’m with Bette 100%.
dlb_nyc
This thread is evidence of the need for healthy, honest dialogue about a complex topic. Every gay man & lesbian I know supports the dignity and rights of trans people. But the movement has been hijacked by unhelpful extremist, bullying activists who do not care about others, plus well-meaning but ignorant “allies.” When it requires complex mental gymnastics and constant changes to word salad to address inherent logical flaws and contradictions, it’s morphed from equal rights into an ideology. Women like Bette and gays have every right to speak up for themselves amidst a surge in sexism and homophobia. You know that if speaking about women’s and gay rights requires Dark Web and back alley conversations, the LGBTQ+ movement has gone off the rails.
bigrawtop
How about calling them trans-men or transgendered persons? Too many labels to keep up.
johncp56
bottom line we need to take care of us all, let us start with saving the vagina for women’s choices not a court of right wig nutts
McSteve
leo1008 Larry Kramer and ActUP were also called extremists. They were told that their radical messages to gay men about changing their sexual practices were ill-informed, a setback to our rights and harmful to the perception of our community in the eyes of straight America. They were persecuted by many for taking a ‘wrong turn’ for gay liberation with their unpopular language.
Sometimes it’s only hindsight that gives one perspective.
Diplomat
Cite examples please of what you’re taking about
McSteve
Diplomat you can start by watching The Normal Heart which documents some of this history. Then do some google searches on the reaction of the gay community (in cities all over the country) to the calls to close down the bathhouses. We may not like to admit it, but having lived through it I can attest that there are parallels to the early response many of us had to the AIDS pandemic with the right-wing response to COVID today (denial of science, resistance to change behavior, outrage at being told how to behave, blaming the messengers). It was a determined vocal minority that brought about changes then which is why I’m not quick to dismiss a vocal minority of voices today. I want to hear Trans voices, I want to listen and learn.
LumpyPillows
Comparing sexual orientation to gender disphoria is comparing apples to oranges. They’re both fruit, but that’s where the similarity ends.
McSteve
LumpyPillows people who are anti-LGB don’t view it as apples and oranges, they view both homosexuals and trans folks the same…each suffering from a dysphoria. It can be as simple as changing your perspective.
tallskin4
I have just got to love all the men, sorry boys, on here telling women what they are and how women are allowed to define themselves!
Quite breathtaking!
LeBlevsez
Nope. Don’t recall that.
But the hypoxia explains a lot.
still_onthemark
I’m guessing you’re just shaking up the soda bottle to get a reaction. But gay men all know a lot of women. (Even the misogynists know a lot of women.) How many pregnant transmen have you met?
Bosch
Tallskinhead, please point out where we tell women how to identify? These terms are descriptors for trans-men, specifically. Seems more like you want to tell trans people how to define themselves.
LumpyPillows
It’s the arrogance of leftist. They will tell you to stay in your lane, while swerving all over every lane and spinning donuts. A lot of women are unhappy with this invasion of their space by trans women, most of whom have penises. They are trying to make the word woman meaningless, or worse demeaning. These people refuse to admit a lot of women are upset. They deny their feelings, being completely misogynist in their attacks on people like Bette or JK or Macy, or Caitlyn or…. Why? Because they are driven to insist a trans woman is woman, which she isn’t, because it is the foundation of their social engineering attack, ultimately, against men. Trans women are trans women. Period.
Everyone is different. Everyone does not get a gender. If you transitioned, you are trans. Period.
Bosch
Bosch
It seems digital immigrants are not se resilient against the propaganda and fear-mongering that happens online. No one is erasing women. Everyone still calls women women. This is the same kind of nonsense as pretending that “happy holidays” is a war on Christmas.
But the fearmongers needs a bogeyman, and this decade it’s the trans bogeyman. It’s all the same rhetoric as when it was us though: “Gays are trying to ruin society!” “Gays are rebelling against nature!” “Gays are stealing our children!” “Gays want special rights!”. Snore.
LumpyPillows
Many women would disagree.
Marsh Parker
@ Dark.
There’s a very significant difference between marching “with” someone vs tagging along.
The “big tent” (big money) orgs like Human Rights Campaign force-fed the idea that all “sexual outlaws” have something in common. That’s patently false.
Cows live in barns. Fish don’t. Just because you’re in a barn doesn’t magically make you a cow. You’re always going to be a fish.
Same-sex attraction is different than any-sex-that-doesnt-threaten-my-privilege-attraction. Gay people and bi people have zero in common. Gay people know what they want. Bi people are just toxic and greedy. As I said, get your own parade.
I have even less in common with trans people, but respect them more, just because of their commitment level. At least they know what they want, as much of a mystery as it remains to me.
But trying to bend the universe to your own whims is a fool’s errand. A woman is a woman. A trans woman is a trans woman. I have no problem with the title, but the two are not the same.
I don’t even know where to begin with trans men, except for the facts stated as above.
Yes, genetic women are being demeaned by terms that devalue their uniqueness. They can create human life, in partnership with a genetic man. (lets not parse this further, in-vitro and surrogacy, we get it. A woman who is barren is still a woman, just as an infertile man is still a man)
I’m old enough to be part of the generation that swung from “negro” to “black” to “african-american” and “latin” to “hispanic” to “laninx” But none of those terms devalued the uniqueness of some other group.
Im not LGBTQ+. I’m gay. I am attracted on a physical and emotional level to my same gender.
But reducing a woman to a birthing sow is just beyond the pale. They are women, they are mothers and they deserve our respect, including their choice of address.
tallskin4
Bosch asks: “Without these terms, how do you refer to a pregnant transman?”
Who cares?
But seriously, we could refer to them as they actually are: namely as pregnant women with mental health issues
LumpyPillows
I refer to him as knocked up Karl.
okiloki
This is so ridiculous. Stop trying to make enemies out of allies like Bette Midler. She was obviously talking about the Roe v Wade decision and she is 100% right in that there is a war against women in this country.