Blackbook vs. The Corner Bistro (And The Gays, Too)


FOODIE HOMOPHOBIA — First, the important part: Blackbook editor Nick Haramis went to the West Village’s Corner Bistro came “for an order of fries, but left with a black eye, a few welts, and an employee screaming “faggots” as he threw me to the floor”, which sounds like a terrible way to spend your Friday night. To top it off, after being booted from the joint, Haramis called the police and was told there was nothing they could do, then he went back to the bar to speak with the manager and was told to get lost and never come back, then he went and wrote a blog post about it on Blackbook’s site and everyone questioned his story. Would you like fries with your injustice, Nick? Update: Turns out, as there often is, there’s another side to this story — which paints Haramis as the instigator.

A good sample comment from Nick’s post is this:

“As a long term resident of NYC, I’ve been to the Corner Bistro many times. Although it is not a “gay restaurant”, it is very gay friendly. There is obviously more to this story than what Nick is writing. You can’t expect to go into a restaurant with an attitute and expect good service. My guess is that got what they deserved! “

And you know what? We’ve been to the Corner Bistro a bazillion times as well. It’s our ex-boyfriend’s (Hi Matthew! Look, you’re getting a mention in Queerty!) favorite dive in the whole world and while we think it’s you know, whatever, it’s always seemed gay-friendly.

That said, I don’t care if you’re the flamiest queen of queentown doing your impersonation of Bea Arthur during childbirth, calling someone a faggot and hitting them is never ‘deserved’.

In any event, poor Nick was forced/compelled to write a follow-up filling in the details and answering reader questions:

“Why didn’t a group of gay men stand up for themselves?

Of the five of us, only two were gay. Two were straight men, and one was a woman. The fact that we didn’t fight back says less about sexuality, and more about an aversion to violence.

I’m sure there will be other questions. And I’m sure most of the people who run and maintain the restaurant are nice people—I’ve never once had a problem in the past. And while I’m sorry that things have escalated to the point where I’ve found myself dealing with a private matter in a public forum, I’m also sort of proud: we may not have fought back at the time, but consider this response—which will be my last on the matter—my left hook.”

Like anyone who this has ever happened to, we understand Nick’s anger. When living in New Mexico, with same previously mentioned ex-boyfriend (look! twice!), two guys came up to us after we were eating at a pizza joint and punched my ex. I called the police and loudly announced that I was writing down the driver’s license of the kid’s truck, who shouted that he hadn’t been involved at all. A woman who saw the incident promised to stay til the police arrived, but when they did, they told me there was really nothing they could do and that it would be a matter of ‘he said vs. he said.’

If this has never happened to you, you know the immense feeling of frustration that comes with doing the right thing, but being told that your reward is nothing. What a shame that Haramis not only was beaten-up by a homophobic waiter, but also, to some extent, by the skeptical gays whose impulse wasn’t to react with outrage or sympathy, but with skepticism and derision.

Update: Another story of violence had at Corner Bistro, via Gothamist:

A few years ago, I was actually beat up by the waiter of Corner Bistro (Muscly Asian guy – always wears a Yankees hat). The bartender had said something really insulting to me out of nowhere, and I responded in a like manner. The next thing I know, my hands were being held behind my back and I was pummeled several times, leaving me bruised on my face and neck.

While it had nothing to do with gay bashing (I’m straight, for one), the incident left me feeling incredibly helpless. At the time, I was under 21, and I didn’t think there was anything I could do without incriminating myself. My brother even went to the bar the following day to find out their perspective on the situation, only to hear denial from the white-haired bartender/owner (“Um…I don’t know what you’re talking about…”, etc.).

I’m sure these incidents are not isolated; I would guarantee that many other patrons have been put in similar situations. An employee of any business should never touch, hit, push, or punch any customer, no matter the situation, especially if you run an operation that serves alcohol.

Anyway, I was just going to say, if you could offer my support to the victim, at least tell him he’s not the only one.

A note from publisher David Hauslaib: Perhaps the only reason you’re hearing about Nick Haramis’ story of homophobic violence is because he works in media. If you’re unfamiliar, BlackBook is one of those trendy “downtown” fashion/style magazines that’s very glossy and chic. Albeit read by fewer people than, say, Entertainment Weekly, it’s very well known inside the bubble of Manhattan media. Read: People like us at Queerty. (Gay connection: BlackBook‘s former editor Aaron Hicklin now runs Out.) Which is great for Haramis, because he gets a very public soapbox to report Corner Bistro’s homophobia, but not so great for other victims of violence or discrimination, who don’t have ears bent toward their stories. Which is where Queerty always has and always will play a part: If you’re ever in a similar situation, tell us! Or at the very least, blog about it yourself and send us the link. Stories like these should not go unnoticed or unreported. Our growing readership, which includes politicos, members of law enforcement, the mainstream news media, and fellow average citizens, can enact change.

Meanwhile, Corner Bistro’s phone number is 212-242-9502.

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  • Paul Raposo

    Boycott the restaurant, or go back with a baseball bat and whack the shit out of the waiter.

  • Darth Paul

    @Paul Raposo: TOTALLY! Whining to indifferent cops and mgmt is useless. Creative retribution is the way to go in a case like this.

  • tavdy79

    @Paul Raposo: The first option will work. The second? Not so good on the personal liberty front…

  • derek

    My initial response reads along the same lines as those of Paul and Darth, but after applying a cool compress to my forehead and thinking it through, violence isn’t the answer and I’m sure they know that. Ever fiber compels me to react in that manner, but fortunately my friends are helping me with ‘anger issues’…whatever. But I digress, the answer is to picket and boycott—sock ’em in the wallet! Nothing’s quite as effective.

  • dizzyspins

    There are other options besides a personal boycott (ineffective) and violence (unacceptable). It all depends if you’re willing to “go there.”

    1. Post your story on Yelp, Citysearch, Time Out and any other site that reviews restaurants and has comment fields.

    2. Call the Health Department and report unsanitary conditions–rats, roaches, whatever.

    3. Go back to the establishment and totally trash the bathroom. (Could be as easy as putting paper towels in the toilets and flushing.)

    4. Call INS and report illegal aliens working in the restaurant.

    Obviously these approaches range from the justifiable to unethical, but sometimes you gotta get ugly if you want satisfaction.

  • Vicente Fox

    go back with a baseball bat and whack the shit out of the waiter

    I wonder if the police response would still be that there’s “nothing we can do”?

  • derek

    @dizzyspins: Ouch! So, in your frenzy of retaliation you get the kitchen help hauled off and deported? Not nice. Poor drones are simply trying to eke out a meager existence. Same goes for destroying the property of others—not very buddhist. But, I do like suggestions 1 and 2—great approaches, both.

  • Tom

    @dizzyspins: YES!! If you ever really want to f*ck with a restaurant establishment, that’s the way to do it!

  • DCastle

    @dizzyspins: I think numbers 1-3 are great ideas. Trashing a bathroom? Probably not a good one. And, reporting UNDOCUMENTED workers is just mean-spirited. Their work is hard enough as it is without some bitchy queen reporting them to ICE and having them deported.

  • DCastle

    sorry…I mean numbers 1 and 2.

  • Matt

    I have to say that a personal boycott is effective, because at least then you won’t get beat up by the staff! I would say that we should *at least* personally boycott the place (to help us vs. to hurt them), but I’ve been burned before by bashing stories that turned out to be completely made-up (one happened when I was in college–someone I didn’t think would make up such a thing–so I have become perpetually wary of these claims). I’m afraid I require more proof than this, honestly, since it seems like no one has come forward to corroborate. I’ve never been to the restaurant, so that doesn’t help, either. It sucks, but blame the false-reporters! If someone has more proof, then I’ll re-evaluate.

  • brett Elms

    Screw that place, their burgers aren’t that great anyway. I work in the meatpacking district and go there once in a while with coworkers but never again.

  • Bob

    DCstle, they are not UNDOCUMENTED workers, as you label them. They are ILLEGAL residents — they are in this country ILLEGALLY. Period. Your term is nothing more than a way to gloss over the fact that their very presence in this country is breaking the law. We can argue about immigration and immigration laws until the cows come home, but the fact is that undocumented workers is an uber-pc way of describing ILLEGAL residents.

  • Whup-Ass Master

    Any restaurant with “Bistro” in its name is gay by default. I suggest getting a bunch of people together, make reservations on the same night, notify the media and stage a big ol’ sloppy tongue-rasslin kiss-in.

  • getreal

    @dizzyspins: Wow I hope I never make you mad.

  • hardmannyc

    I’m not buying it. Not yet. Was there a police report? Does he have photo documentation of his physical damages? This smells. Or it could be one asshole waiter using a convenient epithet.

  • kevin

    Loss of reputation will do more harm to a business than any act of violence or retribution could do.

    This guy was right to publicize his abuse. Restaurants are always struggling and there’s not much profit after overhead costs. Marketing is a must for them, so a “black eye” on their reputation will cost them eventually.

    And…it’s not too late for Nick to sue.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    I am behind you 100% Bob. Why do people always gloss over that glaringly obvious fact?

    The owners of the restaurant first break the law by hiring an illegal alien (to save taxes) and then they break the law a second time by beating up a customer and throwing him out…and then some gays respond by saying “reporting UNDOCUMENTED workers is just mean-spirited.”

    Hello? Beating up a paying customer is NOT mean-spirited? And should such an injustice be allowed to pass unpunished, since “New York’s finest” see fit to look the other way and do nothing to right this wrong?

    And, is it not equally unfair that close to 20 million (yeah, that’s closer to the real figure folks…the media lies on that one too), have taken away jobs from documented American, tax-paying citizens whose plight the bleeding-hearts crowd seems not to be shedding a single tear over? And, puleeeeze…spare me the “but, nobody wants those low-paying jobs, mantra.”

    In my lifetime, I have grubbed potatoes, baled hay, shucked corn, picked apples and oranges, grubbed palemttos, shovelled chick-shit, strung barbed-wirew fences and helped build chicken coops and creosoted them in the hot sun. I have stocked, shelves, swung a mop and scrubbed toilet bowls in supermarkets. I have swept and shoveled snow from sidewalks, put the trash out and moped the floor and staircases as the superintendant of an apartment building, none of which was ever beneath my dignity. They were honest jobs that put a roof over my head, food on the table and a warm bed to sleep in and made me self-reliant instead of being tied to the welfare system with an umbilical cord as so many millions in this country have allowed themselves to do.

    And, at age 72, there is not one of the above mentioned jobs that I still would not perform, if it became necessary, in preference to swilling at the public trough and taking food out of the mouths of those who really need it, like the very elderly and disabled. Accepting welfare is a choice I have never allowed myself and being an American, taxpaying citizen, I can honestly say that I have never taken anyone else’s job away or received benefits that rightfully belong to those who have paid for them and earned them.

    It is NOT our job, as Americans, to support or save the world. Our job is to support and save ourselves, in case anyone has not noticed the plight this country presently finds itself in.

    Oh, and DCastle, if you are so worried about UNDOCUMENTED, have you done your fair share in giving a job to one of those workers you are so concerned about?

    Or maybe you already have a few in your employ that the INS and the IRS don’t know about?

  • Pretzels for Pyros

    @Charles J. Mueller: No, we will not get off your lawn.

  • dgz

    okay, i don’t know how this became an immigration debate, but please.

    do NOT go beat someone up. that’s patently ridiculous. if this writer was there with several friends, guess what? you call the police, and all make statements. then you file a civil suit for assault. ethics, please.

    and how did we jump from “some New Mexico police were unhelpful,” to “the NYPD won’t listen?”

    as a former prosecutor, i must urge everyone to work within the system. and don’t trash the bathroom; grow up.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    It becam an “immigration issue”, because someone chose to inject it into the thread as a justification for what happened.

    Whenever I see someone using one wrong situation to justify another wrong situation, I feel the need to speak up and say so?

    As a former prosecutor, do you not feel the need to do the same, especially if someone were trying to undermine your efforts to see justice being served?

    And, as a survivor of Stonewall and the NYPD brutality that I got to experience first hand, I feel it is only fair to point out the failure of police departments, wherever they happen to be located, to administer the justice to which all American taxpayers are entitled and have every right to expect.

    Simply being the “Historians of crime” does not cut it. We pay these men to protect us, not just take down “The facts, Ma’am, just the facts.” We also have a right to expect to expect arrests and prosecution when the law has been broken.

    It’s not just about fattening the wallets of the lawyers to do the job the police are being paid to do. mouthpieces and lawsuits cost money and not every lawyer is willing to take cases on a contingency basis.

    Justice belongs to the poor as well as the wealthy. And you, as a former prosecutor, should know that. I suggest that perhaps it you who needs to grow up. Not those who are the victims of crime and those of us who are witness to these senseless crimes.

    I suggest that you address your “outrage” with those of us who are upset by one unprovoked attack after another on the gay community at the police who never seem to be around when something like this is happening and refuse to do anything about it when it IS reported.

    That’s where your real outrage should be directed, mr. former prosecutor.

  • rick

    just walk in, flash a badge and yell immigration, let’s see those green cards!

    works every time.

  • getreal

    It’s interesting how racist people will make ANY situation about “illegals”. I live in LA and my favorite pub in Santa Monica is ground zero for “illegal” it seems to be where all the english,australian,kiwi, and irish people looking for a taste of home. I was there one night with friends and we were talking to all these guys wondering if they were scared being illegal in America with so much anti-immigrant sentiment. They all said pretty much the same thing they feel totally comfortable because anti-immigrant people are only concerned with mexicans. One australian guy worked in a kitchen where INS came in and they left him alone and one of the officers told him “don’t worry we are really just here for mexicans” this guy has such a huge accent you can barely understand him clearly they suspected he was illegal or they would not have told him not to worry. After talking to a lot of people I realized people who are anti-immigrant are not against immigrants they are against hispanics. Jim Carey was an illegal here for 10 years but I bet all these anti-immigration people would never look twice at him. It says on the Statue of Liberty give us your tired your poor your huddled masses yearning to be free the wretched refuse of your teeming shore… I do believe immigration has to be tightly controlled so our country is not overpopulated and everyone has opportunity. But enough of treating immigrants like they are scum for wanting a better life for themselves and their families. EVERYONE on this thread is a descendant of immigrants (unless you are black and the descendant of slaves or 100% native american) so let’s get off the moral superiority and anger. I get it Bill O’Reilly and Lou Dobbs tells you everyday how the big bad brown people are going to take over and you are scared but it is a fact that our country was FOUNDED by immigrants.

  • Tom Bacchus

    There’s nothing wrong with that restaurant that a match and a tank of gasoline can’t cure.

  • HardRock

    @CharlesJMueller Please consider joining NumbersUSA; we need every American on board if we are going to put a stop to illegal immigration.

    @GETREAL The INS agents were not doing their jobs properly in that instance. In other instances, they have gone after caucasian illegal immigrants. You say, “I do believe immigration has to be tightly controlled so our country is not overpopulated and everyone has opportunity. But enough of treating immigrants like they are scum for wanting a better life for themselves and their families.” Do you see that we are not treating immigrants like scum, only ILLEGAL immigrants, (and they are not even treated like scum, except in cases where the system goes bad)? You might want to google 2007 Yearbook of Immigration Statistics, which is published by the Department of Homeland Security. If you tally up the numbers, you will find that we issued over 1 million Green Cards in 2007, and 80% went to non-white persons, with 30% of those to Hispanics, even though Hispanics are only 7% of the world’s population.

  • jake

    Hey, you can always report the truth that affects everyone: that place has mice running around during service. I’ve seen it.

  • Jack



  • Faberge L'Eggs

    This comments thread is truly unbelievable. The idea of responding to gay-bashing by making use of (convenient) cultural racism is profoundly fucked up. Call in INS to hassle the restaurant? Seriously? That’s Bill O’Reilly territory. (And I don’t think it would be more than a minor inconvenience for Corner Bistro to hire more underpaid kitchen staff from Oaxaca).

    Even trashing the bathroom (which sounded like fun to me, at first thought) only means that someone paid way worse than a homophobic waiter will have to clean it up.

    No human being is illegal. To classify a person that way–irrespective of what a racist legal system says–perpetuates a different facet of the same struggle LGBT people face as a political minority. I mean, that’s just common sense.

  • Pragmatist

    I know another Lower East Side restaurant that discriminates (though in my personal experience nobody got a black eye!). It’s called Cacio e Pepe. It is, I regret to say, a fantastic Italian restaurant. They do some especially amazing things with white Alba truffles when they’re in season.

    Anyway, I’m bi, so I often get to see how places differ in their treatment of cross-sex couples vs. same-sex couples. I went to Cacio several times with my girlfriend. Although the service was quirky (e.g., you can’t ask for black pepper to sprinkle on your fusili because the restaurant believes the flavors are incompatible), we were always treated as any guests at a nice restaurant should be.

    Then, I returned with a boy. What a difference that made! Even though we arrived at a time when the restaurant was mostly empty, we were forced to sit in the back of the restaurant, in a dark corner next to the restrooms. I asked for one of the tables nearer to the front (it’s much nicer by the window), and they said they were all “reserved”, even though nobody ever arrived. Our server mostly acted as though we didn’t exist, but when he could be bothered to acknowledge us, he was quite rude.

    It was one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, but I will never go back.

  • getreal

    @HardRock: Oh I get it that is why people are sooooooo concerned about the Mexican boarder and the Canadian boarder get almost no attention from the American public. The fact is most illegal immigrants come here on planes. Whenever you turn on Faux News and they are talking about immigrants they never show europeans, asians, or anyone else they show Mexicans. Mexicans are the new Willie Horton. I asked an irish friend of mine his opinion of this and he said they use Mexicans to scare racist people that’s why you will never see my face or the hundreds of thousands of illegal irish people in the country on Faux news because when conservatives see me they don’t get mad they make excuses. I believe in immigration reform but I don’t think one race or nationality should be targeted more than other races/nationality. As someone who lives in LA and knows many people who are hear illegally to work in the entertainment industry from all over the world. It is a fact that the INS target hispanic MORE in their raids. The number of people who got green cards last year has NOTHING to do with who the INS tends to target. 2 years ago I guy I was dating at the time and I drove down from LA to Rosarito Beach in Mexico for the day and as we were waiting to drive back through the border that night he told me he did have his papers (he is from Barcelona came on a tourist visa never left) but not to worry they would’nt bother him because he was white. They asked for my id and passport because I was the driver he told them he left his ID and they let him through. I broke up with him on the way home mostly because he put me in a dangerous position by not being honest about his illegal status and let me drive him across the boarder. It is a fact that white illegals do not get the scrutiny that hispanic illegals do at boarders, at customs, with INS. As someone who has been blessed to do a lot of international travel coming back into America through customs you can see who sails through and who is grilled. I appreciate your intelligent response but not everyone has the same motives as you in their work against illegal immigration.

  • ___

    I would love to hear from the officers who were called to the scene. Though shitty things like this happen all the time (and not just to us gays)it is the job of the police to protect us and our rights. Why are they not being held accountable?

  • Faberge L'Eggs

    @getreal: Good point. In 100 years all the hysteria about Mexicans, like how they’re reconquering the southwestern states, will sound as quaint as talk about the “Yellow Peril” or “No Irish Need Apply.”

    Or, you know, as stupid as “God hates fags” and the like will sound…

    Hearing bullshit about “illegals” on a website like this is just depressing. I mean, get your head out of your ass and recognize the dynamics at work here.

    No need to take this comment section even further afield, but if the US didn’t pursue the foreign policies that it did, in Latin America and elsewhere, life in the Third World wouldn’t be quite so hellish and people wouldn’t feel forced to leave everything and everyone behind to work an 80-hour week in some shitty restaurant with homophobic waiters that people who can afford to eat there actively debate firebombing.

  • dgz

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    seriously, are you okay? your comments seem profoundly confused. and why are you “quoting” me with words i haven’t used?

    and where exactly in my comments did i suggest we shouldn’t expect a functional justice system? i’m sorry for your personal difficulties and injustice you have experienced, but that doesn’t support the illogical, seven-league leap to vigilantism. my point was that it’s important to work within the system whenever possible. at least give the cops a chance to do the right thing… i can pretty much guarantee that the beat cops in NYC today aren’t the same ones who hurt you at stonewall.

    and you seem to have overlooked the fact that this post is not about immigration status, and there is no indication that the alleged gay-bashing was perpetrated by a non-citizen. so let’s get back to discussing the relevant issues and you can go back to watching Lou Dobbs, kay?

  • derek

    Sheeesh! Did this comments thread ever take a slice off into the rough! If what happened to this poor soul is true, picket the damn place and be done with it. Nothing will close up a business quicker than bad publicity. Now, for all the ‘illegal immigrant’ bashers, look elsewhere for a group of people that are damaging our imperiled country, because they aren’t the guilty ones. Restaurants require a social security card when they hire, and illegal immigrants present them with fake ones. The owners don’t know that, although I’m sure they suspect it. From that point forward the employer AND employee are paying into Social Security—a system that, as an illegal, they will never be able to access for benefits, nor should they. But, in the meantime, they’re pumping billions into the Social Security system annually. The whole ‘drain on the system’ chant is simply for bigots with no other reason for hating but hate itself.

  • getreal

    @Faberge L’Eggs: Thank goodness I thought I had wandered into some kind of bizarro world where LGBT people were becoming Lou Dobbs new acolytes it is nice to read intelligent, ethical points of view. FYI I misspelled because I was when I feel passionate I bang away with little regard to grammar or spelling.

  • Matt (the other one)

    If the restaurant is part a national chain, you can usually write to central management and they’ll do something. Make it clear that you know the behavior is illegal (for example, “I was harassed in violation of Title VII and the local employment nondiscrimination ordinance.” You might also be able to cite Section 42, I’m unsure if it applies in all states). In fact, I often have to persuade them to educate, not just fire the offenders. That part is important if you ever plan to go back. And don’t give them enough information that the staff knows who complained. This may seem cynical, but the local waiters can be as thickheaded as the central management is quick to overreact.

    A local establishment is tougher, and I don’t know of a good solution. It really concerns me that the police department didn’t do its job. Does the police chief know about this negligence? Maybe the mayor, city council, or city human rights commission will do something. If they don’t, publicize it. If you’ve been beaten, walk into the police station. Let them see your bruises and tell them that the offender is unharmed except maybe for the marks on his fists.

    This is partly a stream of consciousness, and in the end, a boycott might work just as well. Still, I hope this is of some help.

  • Matt (the other one)

    No boycott unless we know it really happened, though.

  • JJJJ

    They sort of are two separate issues, but I guess it’s just that getting gay-bashed by an illegal alien (whether it’s a Mexican or Russian or anyone else) adds insult to injury. (Don’t lecture me. Some people ARE illegal. It doesn’t mean they are immoral, or bad, but “undocumented worker” doesn’t negate the truth of what they are). But I’m semi-skeptical about this whole story overall.

  • Monica Roberts

    This remind me of the time my hair-challenged transy sister, Jasymyne Knipps, tried to urinate (publicly) at a Whole Food Stores in Burbanks. The self-satisfied whiyte beetch monitoring they rest room demand “proof of purchings” receep! Jamsymeing spun her pousssy around and spray uring on the bysTanders and passings-by with her anus in full view and claim “TELL ME HOW DO MY ASS TASTE!”

    This is how I learned self esting.

  • DeWillis Washington

    @Bob: I agree.I couldn’t have said it better.Undocumented my aching ass! It’s time to stop sugar coating this bullshit.These seemingly innocuous guest workers are threats.Those that think otherwise should prove their point by donating their job,their homes,and their future to these people.I am sure they will display immeasurable gratitude in ten years time.

  • BootsieGee

    Im what I am sure will be a useless attempt to get this thread back to the subject. I have to say that, having read both articles on Blackbook, I have to agree that the story has some holes in it. I should point out that I agree completely that violence is never the answer and should only be used as a measure of last resort. From what is written it sounds like the group of 5 showed up at CB and had been drinking and according to the author were probably behaving like “assholes” Their sense of entitlement kicked in and the sat down at a 4 top even though there were five people, probably pulling a chair over from another table (which as a former waiter in a small place can make it difficult to get around). They then proceeded to order more cocktails and were told by someone that if you were going to take a table that you had to order food, at which point someone said “we’ll start with fries” in an attempt to both get their drinks and abide by the “order food” thing. Now this is where it gets murky for me…by saying “we’ll start with fries” you have now sent a presumed employee into such a rage that he beat two grown men down, in such a manner that their friends nor anyone else in the places stepped in? It just sounds like an odd chain of events. I am guessing that some things were said along the lines of “do you know how much moeny we have spent here, etc.” Then they go out and see the cops just outside the door who tell them that they can file a complaint, which they decide against. I imagine the cops thought OK, these people have partied way too much and have no visible signs of being hurt and they don’t want to file a report, they are on their own.

    Now, assuming that his story is accurate he can do things that will hurt the business (I mean hello, he already started this by posting his story.) He can make up some flyers and stand (on the public side walk) and hand them out to people in the area as well as posting the signs up around the community on bulletin boards. Before he goes on your flyer mission, call up a local TV station and get a consumer reporter and let them know what happened and then contact the ACLU and file a suit on the basis that your civil rights were violated. There are many more ways to combat this kind of discrimination than violence or illegal actions.

    I personally have never been to the CB and based on this article I would probably think twice about going if I were in NYC.

  • me


    Don’t you mean illegal? They are here illegally, no?

  • GJR

    I think people have to really protest this. There was a case of a woman who was kicked out of a NYC Mexican restaurant called Caliente Cab a few years ago because she used the women’s restroom yet “looked to much like a man” – she offered to show ID, they just became abusive. So she sued and a boycott of the restaurant was started. There is a good article on this at

    The Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund filed suit back in October of 2007 and she won a settlement.

    I think that businesses like this need to be exposed and boycotts need to be arranged. The Cali Cab restaurant was indignant and nasty too until they were sued and started losing business.

    I think too there should be a few protests at this restaurant at lunchtime and I think the guy who was abused should consider filing suit. The Khadijah Farmer case shows you should not back down and the restaurant should be held accountable. And if the place has a rep of being gay-friendly, all the more reason to strike at them. Let them lose half their clientele.

  • Pragmatist

    @DeWillis Washington:

    “Undocumented,” “illegal,” whatever. You guys should really: (a) stop using immigration law to cover your racial hatred so transparently; and (b) pay attention to the actual economic impact that immigrants (even unauthorized ones) provide.

    As to the first point, we can all tell your foaming at the mouth concerns more than a simple legal violation. After all, the law is just a descriptive set of action/consequence pairings; the fact that an action is “ILLEGAL” doesn’t make it wrong (even with all the faux-shock capitalization). We all violate the law in innumerable ways. I speed. I occasionally run red lights when nobody’s around. I smoke the occasional joint. I might have claimed too much on an itemized deduction here or there. I’m willing to bet you’ve done many of these things yourself. Yet, where’s all the outrage?

    As to the second point, numerous studies have shown us that immigrants *boost* the economy rather than hampering it. That’s not surprising: outside of technological growth, the gains from trade comprise the biggest source of per-capita economic growth. Trade is mutually beneficial; protectionism hurts us all. When immigrants cross our borders to toil for extraordinarily low pay, they provide a direct subsidy to the industries in which they work, which gives consumers access to lower prices. (This is especially true in the agricultural sector, where I’d venture that unauthorized immigrants constitute a very significant share of the labor pool.)

    In many cases, such immigrants fill in labor shortages for positions that American citizens, quite frankly, prove unwilling to take. (Fortunately, because of currency differentials and lower levels of per-capita GDP in their home countries, immigrants are often quite eager to be working for what we’d consider quite low wages here.)

    Living in Southern California, I see this particular racial tension bubble over with quite some regularity. It amazes me how often seemingly educated people will encounter a Latin-American person and then make some kind of comment about “illegals” (having no idea about the person’s immigration status!). I’ve heard a lot of bellyaching, such as yours, about how the Sanctity of Immigration Law has been violated… and almost never has the person making the complaint actually been affected by it personally. Rather, he or she just exhibits a great deal of resistance to *cultural* and *demographic* changes, and that’s what I think this “debate” is really all about.

  • ___

    This whole immigration issue stemmed from one person’s suggestion of calling the INS on Corner Bistro as retaliation. Clever, but not really the high road.

    Why don’t we stick to the real issue at hand which is what happened and the repercussions of it.

    It takes a lot of guts to tell your story on such a public forum knowing there will people who will doubt you and try to find holes in the story and it sounds like Nick has suffered from a lot of negative feedback from this. No one is that bored or attention starved to invent this situation just for being kicked out of a bar. Clearly he felt the need to right a wrong or at least shine a light on it. Of course there will be holes in the story. Without photographic memory of every minute of the occurrence how could there not be.

    Its easy to hear a story like this and feel doubt but the bottom line is, no matter what happened being an asshole isn’t against the law. Assault is.

    It is sad though when people let there own bitterness turn them against members of their own kind. Dissension is what will keep us down.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    Your reference to “big bad brown people” commnts of Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Reilly are straw man arguments. Blacks were not illegal aliens. They did not sneak across the border and were brought here against their will. Free blacks also worked and paid their fair share of taxes unlike the millions of Latinos that work under the table and do NOT pay taxes despite all the ‘freebies” they feel themselves to be entitled to.

    “but it is a fact that our country was FOUNDED by immigrants.”

    Absolutely. And, those immigrants, like my parents and my grandparents, came to this country legally, after waiting their turn with the quota system. They didn’t sneak in illegally. I received my education in public schools that were paid for in part, by taxes my father paid out of his legal job and salary.

    Not one member of my family, on both sides and myself included, ever collected one cent from HEAP, got food stamps, free medical and dental care or received welfare, unemployment insurance or any other form of public assistance in our entire lives. We paid their own way.

    People like you, who defend illegal immigration, which is clearly flaunting and breaking the laws of this country, always amaze me. I wonder what other laws you also feel you do not have to obey? If you support the legal stealing of money from other taxpayers pockets to support illegal aliens who have paid nothing into the system, then you no doubt, would have a problem of stealing money from your friends as well…and justify it it you were caught, as seems to be the fashion these days even with the politicians we elect to public office.

    I wonder how long it would take the President of Mexico to deport your ass for sneaking across their border and taking a job away from a Mexican Citizen? Not very long, I would imagine. And the same could be said for any other country in the world who does care about protecting it’s own.

    I have a Filipino friend in Manila, who has been waiting for five years now to get a visa to legally emigrate to Australia. I have another friend in California, who has been waiting for four now to accumulate enough points to emigrate legally to Canada. I am sure with your twisted logic, you would see this as cruel and unusual punishment.

    It has often been said that opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. Interesting, those opinions often come from people, like you, who have nothing invested in the issue at hand and therefore, have nothing to lose.

    If you were one of the some 40,000 bi-national gay couples like myself who cannot marry and bring their life-partners to these shores because immigrations says no, you would perhaps have a better understanding of how many Americans, both str8 and gay, feel and experience toward illegal Mexican aliens. They don’t believe in getting in line and go right to the head of it. We American gays pay our taxes, yet are denied basic rights that the illegal aliens feel they automatically have coming…and marched in the street for just this past year, I might add.

    I was willing to spring for a $30,000. college tuition plus textbooks and living expenses for my partner in exchange for a four year student visa, just so I could have him here with me here in the US for that small amount of time and happiness we could have shared. Despite his acceptance at a prestigious university in Florida, my partner was denied a student visa on three different occasions.

    The reason given by INS for the three declinations?

    “We don’t have sufficient reason to believe that the applicant will return to the country of his origin after he has completed his studies.”

    Obviously, my government is more focused on helping “the poor huddled masses” than it is with seeing to it that our country does not sink in the massive debt that it is accruing with it’s insane free trade and lax immigration policies. China will bail us out, as it has been doing for quite some time now.

    But hey, don’t let that worry your head none. When your job is taken over by an illegal alien, of any variety, all you have to do is sign-up for unemployment, and when that runs out, you too will be eligible for welfare and all the benefits the illegal illegal aliens are currently enjoying, thanks to Mr. Bush and Company.

    Oh…and not to worry about who will pay for your support when that finally happens (and it will). The tens of thousands of gay Americans Citizens who have become exiles from their native country, will be required to pay incomes taxes to our government for a full ten years, even if we chose to renounce out American Citizenship.

    That knowledge should be very comforting to bleeding-hearts asshats like you.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    “and you can go back to watching Lou Dobbs, kay?”

    Straw man commentary.

    How about I compare you to Hitler?

    That’s another Godwin’s Law statement that shuts down debate as quickly and as surely as your commntary did.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Pretzels for Pyros:

    “No, we will not get off your lawn.”

    And I am sure that you also believe that you have a right to burn a cross on it, if you desire?

    Been a member of the Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church very long?

  • Tom

    So, is Queerty planning to follow-up now that published reports from at least one witness allege that Haramis and his bf were “clearly wasted”, that the waiter involved claims to have been stuck first, that Haramis threw either a salt shaker or a beer mug at a bartender, that Corner Bistro owners claim Haramis and his party of drunken over-entitled friends jumped a line of people waiting for seats and then refused to order food and became abusive? Also, that Haramis lied and screamed that he worked for the New York Times and would “shut the place down”. In short, he was visibly intoxicated, verbally abusive, and threatening the physical health and well-being of the staff (having seen thrown glasses and beer bottles cause horrible injuries). If, and even this is still an if, one of the employees called someone a “faggot”, even during this pandemonium, he should probably be fired, but Mr. Haramis and his ill-mannered, drunk boyfriend need to accept their role in this altercation. What shouldn’t be happening is all of the “gaysphere” calling for a business with 42 long years serving people in relative peace to be closed and all those innocent employees thrown out of work. If you don’t act like an asshole in public you won’t get treated like one.

  • Pragmatist

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    You wrote, “When your job is taken over by an illegal alien, of any variety, all you have to do is sign-up for unemployment. . . .”

    What makes you think that the (mostly privileged) readers of this board hold jobs that are threatened by illegal immigration? I mean, really, do you actually believe there’s a risk of that?

    The vast, vast majority of illegal immigrants are restricted to performing low-wage physical labor, the sort that American citizens aren’t *willing* do even when they’ve fallen into unemployment. When you apply for a job as a tax accountant, or journalist, or secretary, or dental assistant, or even a burger-flip supervisor at Wendy’s, you face nearly zero competition from illegal immigrants. That’s because nobody without a documented right to work in the United States is able to obtain such a job. Hiring procedures just won’t allow it.

    In reality, most illegal immigrants can only work in strawberry fields, or mowing lawns, washing dishes in small, independently owned restaurants, etc. Nobody who complains about the competitive force of immigrants in the labor market is concerned about being passed up for a dishwashing job, I can assure you.

    Sure, a small number of illegal immigrants have the skills to perform higher-level services. You might, for example, find a receptionist at a dentist’s office in Little Saigon who isn’t really allowed to be in the United States. But who is he or she displacing? Those businesses are small and cater almost exclusively to ethnic enclaves anyway.

    No, illegal immigration is not a real worry for 99% of American workers. What *is* a real worry is outsourcing. Or the H-1B visa. From an economic standpoint I believe it’s still best to permit those flows to occur, but at least I’d agree they have the potential for significant displacements in the domestic labor market. But concerns over illegal immigration? Those are just a veil for something else.

  • getreal

    @Charles J. Mueller: First of all many mexicans are brown. I clearly stated that I am in favor of controls on immigration. My point was all immigrants regardless of nationality/race should be pursued equally. Had you actually read instead of scanned my post you would have seen this you seem to post simply to insult people and project your own extreme views onto others. It does not make make me a bleeding heart to believe that everyone in this country deserves to be treated that the dignity that our Constitution affords. If someone is caught in this country illegally they should be deported we don’t have to foam at the mouth, attack them, and demonize people. This is a legal not a moral issue.

    Oh and when someone joking said get off my lawn it is a silly expression people use when they are talking to someone they PERCEIVE to be a crotchety old man. It is meant as calm don’t be cranky have fun! It was someone trying to make a lighthearted joke which you immediately took to the extreme of accusing them of wanting to burn a cross on your lawn.I think most people here just want to share their views and to be informed by the views of others very few people here are trying to be adversarial so why not give others the benefit of the doubt until you know for sure they are trying to insult you. I have read your posts and you do share with others your experiences from what sounds like a pretty interesting life . My father told me you can tell the kind of life someone has led by how generous, forgiving, and kind they are with others. Someone who leads a happy fulfilling life is probably not going to feel the need to insult and attack people at every given opportunity. Just my opinion no disrespect intended.

  • porky poon

    That whole area is a trend sapping cesspool of three hags tripping and believing you can actually have sex in this city.

    Burn the Beatrice.
    Cold cock the Cluny.
    Art Fart the Bar.

    Massive Boycotts!!!!!!! now and forever? (shrug)

    maybe he tipped him maize corn kernels thinking they would be useful in Puebla?

    I don’t know, but I’m gettin’ all WiKi on this one folks!!

    I thrive on scandal, sue me, I’m gay!

  • Sam

    Why doesn’t this guy get a lawyer and sue them? If he had people with him, he obviously has witnesses, and even if it comes down to the employees denying what happened, I bet he will get a big settlement to make the case go away. I can’t imagine any lawyer advising the restaurant that they have a good case when multiple witnesses saw an employee beat up a customer, and then management offered no response. The publicity and legal defense costs will make the owners address the situation real quick.

    There are plenty of lawyers who would take this case on a contingency too.

  • koolq76

    First of I want to state that I’m investagaing this case. I have watch the video of the incident from an inside source. The video clearly shows that the employee was attack first. In Nick’s statement he said that the waiter grab him by his T-shirt and throw him on the floor, which is a complete fairy tale. The employee was smack in the face first and that’s when the waiter push and then threw him on the floor. If you have 5 guys against one, you need to protect yourself and that was the case. It has nothing of him being gay, when you are in anger insulting words will come out, I’m sure everyone knows that. Corner Bistro would never suvive in the West Villiage if they were homophobic but yet they have been there for almost 45 years. I,m pretty sure Nick is trying to make money or to make a name for himself. The truth will be out there once I post the video of the incident on U-Tube once I have permission. Corner Bistro can counter sue for incident. They have video evidence that the employee was attack first. Secondly they can sue of false statement effecting their business. Since Nick and the owner agree to drop charges and call it even, there will not be any lawsuit at the moment.

  • Faberge L'Eggs

    @Charles J. Mueller: Your grandparents waited under to immigrate to the US, under the quota system? How polite. But there weren’t quotas for Germans, ever. (Assuming Mueller is your last name).

    My great-grandfather snuck in over the US-Ireland border at night, and my great-grandmother paid a coyote to drive her to Queens from Sicily in the back of a truck with a dozen others. And look at the mess we’re in now.

    Fucking immigrants, like my entire ancestry! Ruining everything.

  • Phillipe Kleefield

    @ Charles

    I think you bring up important points by invoking the question of citizenship. While I think that you are arguments are valid because you’ve clearly experienced discrimination at the hand of the American government, I believe you are fighting a game of who is most oppressed while ignoring the reality that this is exactly what those in power — the people who have not granted your partner’s visa — want. Instead of fighting for your right by challenging the state’s practices, you choose to wage war on another human ( if I used the word citizen you would likely eat me up because you don’t think “illegal immigrants” are American citizens and thus do not deserve rights) being who does not reap any of the benefits of citizenship. Creating coalitions is the most effective practice in achieving change as strength in numbers greatly increases your chances of seeing your personal interests realized due to our great American system of democracy.

    Part of your problem ( which is the problem of most) is that you believe “illegal immigrants” actively and willingly steal your jobs, as if they personally said “hey, Im going to capitalize and cop this job from you”. Abiding by this logic, you’ve made the understandable mistake of blaming the person ( the “illegal immigrant” ) as opposed to the the person in power (service industries going out of their way to hie illegal immigrants because they are cheaper to employ). Now, most of those using “illegal immigrant” labor do this because they know they can get away with treating these human beings as shit, can pay them much much less than human wage, and thus maximize their profits. Illegal Immigrants only travel here because they know that they are in supply — those in power actively go out of their way to hire these young men and women to minimize expenditures.

    Another issue is that those who wait their turn tend to have more money, education, privilige ( and thus less urgency) to come to this country. Your undying love for your partner seems like a matter of life and death, however, it is not an absence of basic human needs such as food and water. If illegal immigrants, such as those from Mexico, waited in lie, they wouldn’t die of a need for contact, they would simply, well… die. That’s an important difference and thus explains their ability to wait in line.

    Another thing you’ve effaced in your argument is the reality that American colonizers ( even before the time of your European ancestors) clearly stole large parts of Mexico, from well, Mexico. To get into an ideological debate about citizenship and immigration without adequate historical knowledge of borders is misinformed. WHat you see as your land, hasn’t always been your land. Moreover, I am very, very sure, that if illegal immigrants were told to pay taxes, they would. If taxes determine your basic human rights, and thus, would allow for young Mexican illegal immigrants to be paid more than a dollar an hour and treated as a decent member of society, then yes, these men and women would do whatever they needed to do.

    The basic premise of my argument is not dispel your claims ( because I think they are valid due to the oppression you’ve faced) but to help you come to the understanding that your misdirected anger needs to be aimed at those that actually serve to oppress you. But see, this work is much harder, and in turn you realize it is is easier to play a hierarchical game of who is more oppressed by invoking the discourse of citizenship ( which is a construct ) and thus, fighting those who you deem are less of a citizen than you. Until you see that you and illegal immigrants are in the same boat, although you face different experiences, you will never see the change you wish to accomplish.

    Under this hierarchy of citizenship you so seek to perpetuate, you must remember that as an old gay man, you are pretty damn close to the bottom of the ladder. Because most others play this game of hierarchy, you will never be granted what you have spent your whole life trying to fight for. Following your logic, Straight man in the Senate would say, ” why should I grant an old homosexual the right to see his partner when he is morally debased and does not merit citizenship?”. Funnily enough, this game is actually played and that’s why those who are oppressed in society today do not get the equal rights they deserve. This game of hierarchy only works for those with the most power ( old white Straight men with money). Miss honey, you missed out on the straight train a long time ago. By blaming those who are more powerless, you are merely hurting yourself. The power game is designed for those who actually fully fit its definition — your gayness precludes you from such power. Unless you seek to overturn institutional and structural constructs of normalcy, don’t play the game of hierarchy.

    Build a coalition, I promise you that you’ll get what you wish.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Faberge L’Eggs:

    You wrote: “But there weren’t quotas for Germans, ever. (Assuming Mueller is your last name).”

    Izzata fact now? Well, Ms or Mr. (whatever your sex is), Smartass, here are two sites that will show you that you need to remove some of those Faberge Eggs that are shoved so far up your ignorant ass, that you don’t have a clue as to what the hell you are talking about.

    I get so sick and tired of having to educate dumb asses like you, who go around stupidly shooting their mouths off without a shred of evidence to back up their asinine comments.

    You don’t know jack shit about my family. So, what give you the right to think that you tell me how it was with them? FYI, my grandparents, on both sides came to this country legally through Ellis Island.

    My Tante Gretchen, my father’s sister, came to this country legally on board a steamship and entered through the port of Mobile Alabama, where my grandfather, my father and I drove to pick her up and bring her back to Florida where she spent the rest of her life.

    My father, who entered this country twice in his lifetime, entered the port of New York as a refugee before I was born and again under the quota system in 1968 through the port of Mobile, Alabama.

    Who the hell are you to tell me that my family, who were Austrian on my mother’s side and German on my father’s side, to tell me that my family came to this country illegally?

    All of my family, including my mother and father have long since passed away and I have documentation, on both side of my family to prove that they were legal citizens of this country. Would you care to argue the authenticity of those documents as well?

    Can you come up with something that disproves that any member of my family came here illegally? If you can’t, then do me a favor and STFU and stop screwing with people’s heads just to amuse your dull, vapid and uninteresting life.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    Correction: ‘disproves’ should read ‘proves’.

  • matt (the other other one)

    @Faberge L’Eggs: Clearly you were being humorous this Charles guy is bonkers.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    You wrote: “No, illegal immigration is not a real worry for 99% of American workers. What *is* a real worry is outsourcing. Or the H-1B visa.”

    Your point is well taken. Like you, I too believe that “free trade” is killing this country and that something needs to be done about it…and soon, before China winds up owning all of America.

    And, I will not vehemently argue the point over illegal alien taking jobs that most Americans would find demeaning and underpaid. To a large extent, this is probably true, but that is not the thrust of my argument.

    My concern about illegal immigration stems more from my concern about the financial drain this flow of immigration poses on the Welfare system of this country.

    Like social security that American workers and employers have paid into equally for their entire work life, welfare funds are not sitting in a shoe box on a shelf in the Federal Treasury with our name written on the outside of it. All of it comes out of the General Fund, hence, all of all us who have worked and paid into the system over the years are the ones rightfully entitled to it.

    I am not a heartless person who would decry supporting someone’s elderly grandmother who is bereft of family members to care for her and is unable to support herself. Nor would I decry anyone receiving assistance for a disability or situation that is beyond their control. We are, after all, a humane society, I would hope. My only requirement would be, that the people who receive these benefits be American Citizens, even if they were themselves, supported by someone during their lifetime, like a housewife for example, who stayed home and raised the children without ever actually being a part of the tax-paying workforce. She would be entitled to those benefits by virtue of the fact that her salary earning husband paid into the system.

    That said, however, is where my generosity ends as an American taxpayer. Social Security and welfare were never set up and intended to be used as a free slopping trough for anyone who wants to sneak into this country illegally and avail themselves of the benefits that others had to work hard for to earn.

    Stealing benefits that others paid for is no different than than stealing from your employer or robbing a 7-11. It’s just done sans a weapon and it does not make it legal, justifiable or right. It goes against everything I was taught by my parents, my teachers and society in general.

    I rest my case. The government will do exactly as it pleases, no matter how you or I feel about it, unfortunately. ;-)

  • matt (the other other one)

    @Charles J. Mueller: They chased you off the facebook thread now you want to bore people here to death.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    I believe that we are of one mind with respect to the first paragraph of your reply to me. It is definitely a legal issue. I do believe, however, that becomes a moral issue, when people who paid nothing into the system, receive public assistance, paid for with American workers taxes, but that is a topic for yet another discussion, I am sure.

    I apologize if stating my views as I see them, makes it sound as if I am being rude and insulting people. It is not my intent to do, despite the fact that I myself, am often attacked and insulted by others on these threads like the “Balut” lady. lol

    As for my response to Pretzels for Pyros, neither you nor I know him, so his comments are up for grabs. Since he did not post wink or an lol at the end of his commentary, I took it at face value. The onus is not on me to interpret the poster’s intent. It is upon the poster, to make his intent clear at risk of being chastised or called on it. Rules of the game, you know. As the old expression goes, “If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kithen.”

    You wrote of your father: “My father told me you can tell the kind of life someone has led by how generous, forgiving, and kind they are with others. Someone who leads a happy fulfilling life is probably not going to feel the need to insult and attack people at every given opportunity. Just my opinion no disrespect intended.”

    Your father sounds like a man whom I would have liked to know and would have gladly shaken his hand in agreement with that profound comment.

    I have never, ever knowingly attacked anyone verbally, who did not attack me first. It was not I who attached the Catholic Church. It was not I who attacked the Mormon Church. It was not I who attacked Reverend Rick Warren. It was not I who attacked Rever Haggard. It was not I who attacked Reverend Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church. Nor was it I who attacked the rights of LGBT people to marry as just happened in California. I could go, ad nauseum, listing people who have attacked me and the LGBT community, but, I think you get my drift.

    I have never been one to “turn the other cheek”. Turning the other cheek is for losers, and I am not a loser. I will speak up, loudly and boisterously, at every drop of a slight, insult, threat or comment that threatens the quality of life for me and all LGBT people. It’s all well and fine to be liked and looked at as being all forgiving, kind and generous. Unfortunately this language is lost on the likes of the Reverend Falwell and Dawson crowd and is simply a waste of time. I only insult and attack those who believe that the have the right to insult and attack me first. if people are going around looking to pick a fight, they had best duck once they have taken the first swing. Once again, rules of the game. Respecdt begets respect. Insults and disrespectful comments reap a black eye. lol

    And in closing, please do let me say that I recognized that you were stating an opinion and that no disrespect was intended. I appreciated that clarification and am glad to know that we are not at cross ends with each other. :-)

    Thank you for your commentary.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    No, Matt. it is the egg lady who is bonders, when she makes dumb statments like there was never any immigration quota for Germans.

    If you will but read some of the other off the wall postings the egg lady had made, I think you will find that I am not the one who is bonkers.

    Ignorance is ignorance, no matter what pseudo-name it parades under.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    “@Charles J. Mueller: They chased you off the facebook thread now you want to bore people here to death.”

    Umm…I was never a member of FaceBook.

    Like the egg lady, you need to get your facts straight before you make an asshat of your self.

  • matt (the other other one)

    @Charles J. Mueller: The facebook rapist thread

  • matt (the other other one)

    @matt (the other other one): You were on there making posts and when people took issue with you you disappeared here you are making the same asinine points.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Phillipe Kleefield:

    Ah, yes. Another one of those people who believe that the oppressed and marginalized minorities should be kissing the asses of the very people who voted our civil-rights down the crapper in California, Arizona, Arkansas and in my own home state of Florida while we were busy donating our time, energy and money to getting our first black President elected to office.

    Been a member of NAACP for long?

    Isn’t it interesting, that those with no chips on the table and who have not been dealt a hand at the poker table, deem themselves to be so knowledgeable as to advise the committed players themselves, how the game “should” be played? It only serves to prove, yet one again, that opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

    I am sure that you mean well, but I am not going to get into yet another argument about illegal aliens and Immigration. I’ve stated my views on that a number of times now and will not waste any further time defending those views. I am as entitled to my opinions as the next person, and if they are deemed offensive bysome, well then, hey, this is America and we all have the right to free speech, don’t we?

    “fighting those who you deem are less of a citizen than you. Until you see that you and illegal immigrants are in the same boat, although you face different experiences, you will never see the change you wish to accomplish.”

    Sorry, buddy. You’ve made a glaring misrepresentation of fact here.

    Fact: I AM a legal, law-abiding citizen of this country and I am taking nothing away from others that rightfully belongs to them. The illegal aliens are NOT citizens of this country. They are people who broke the law and should be punished for doing so, not rewarded. You’re mixing apples with oranges and trying to make them look all the same. You score absolutely no points on that one.

    Fact: I pay taxes and as a taxpayer, I should be entitled to the civil-rights that my Constitution guarantees me, but my government feels I am not entitled to because it too, like many in the Latino Community and the Baptist blacks of this country, deem me be a second-class citizen. I should not have to apologize for being legal Citizen; I should not have to apologize for being white and I should not have to apologize for being homosexual, in the land of my birth. Nor, should I be reduced to kissing ass and begging people who hate my queer ass for what should be my natural birthright. That’s for losers.

    Fact: The highly Catholic Latino community is intensely homophobic, as are many Baptist Blacks. Why should any LGBT person’s civil-rights be decided by the very people who despise us and in many cases, would just as soon see us dead? If I feel the need to wear a hair shirt, flagellate myself with a whip and take abuse and condemnation, I can simply go visit my local Catholic Church and announce to them that I am a queer who wants in on their private little hating party.

    Fact: Kissing the papal ring and robes of the Pope for two-thousand years has not gotten us our civil-rights and it will not happen in another two-thousand years. In fact, the Pope not only condemns abortion, the use of condoms and homosexuality, he also just came out and supported the refusal of the US (the only western nation to do so) to support the UN Resolution that would decriminalize homosexuality on a world-wide basis.

    Fact: Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church and his cult will never, ever, love LGBT people Go to http://WWW.godhatesfags and after reading the inflamatory hate literature on that site, tell me if I should cease directing my anger at people like him and beg him to allow me to be a part of his miserable bastion of ignorance, bigotry and hatred?

    Fact: Rick Warren, a homophobe of the first magnitude, supports Peter Akinola and the President of Nigeria that the imprisonment of gays there is a good thing because he believes that gay marriage is akin to incest, pedophilia and bestiality. Should the LGBT community stop fighting him and ask for his blessings and the right to have our same-sex weddings be performed at The Saddlebrook Church in California?

    Just a few “fer instances”. I’m sure you get my drift by now.

    “Miss honey, you missed out on the straight train a long time ago.”

    My name, btw, is not Miss Honey. You don’t know me well enough to call me pet names…yet. I’ll be sure to let you know when I am comfortable with your doing so, however. Oh…and just fyi, I never set foot on the straight train. I’ve known that I am a queer since the age of five, when I first experienced the feelings of love for a first grade classmate.

    And I won’t take umbrage with you about the “old gay man” comment, as it is not I who seems to have an issue with age. And, furthermore, age should have absolutely nothing to do with the attainment of my basic civil-rights. Frankly, I don’t give a good flying f–k what some self-righteous, morally debased politician thinks about a, how did you put it, “A morally debased homosexual who is undeserving of his citizenship”, while he screwing lord know how many chicks on the side while the faithful wife sits by the fireplace with dinner awaiting him. So, puleeze, spare me the morality issue. Just another ass kissing exercise. No points on this one either.

    “Build a coalition, I promise you that you’ll get what you wish.”

    Yeah. Right. When hell freezes over. As long as black people kept saying “Yazza, massa. Right away Massa.”, they didn’t get shit. When they began rioting in the streets, burning cities down, only then did they get their rights.

    Ass-kissing and appeasement never works. Never will. Neville Chamberlain tried that with Mister Hiter with the Non-agression pact. Look where it got us. Millions of Jews dead in the gas chambers, along with tens of thousands of homosexuals that also perished in the Holocaust.

    Remember Paragraph 175? Give us another kick, if you would, your Majesty. Give us another “whiff”,if you would, Herr Hitler?

    Or do you even bother to read your history books before espousing your uncle Tom sounding litany?

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    Facts please? Like a link to my actual comments with the actual dates and times I supposedly made these alleged comments?

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    It’s looking pretty obvious to me that you are either an out and out liar, or you are looking to provoke an fight over a non-existent issue. I just went to FaceBook, of which I am NOT a member (and you can check that fact for yourself with FaceBook) and did a search of their topics. Here is the link and my findings.

    “There are no discussions in the last 60 days that match Rapist thread.”

    I don’t know who you are, or what your purpose is. I have never, ever exchanged dialogue with you, said anything uncomely to you, nor have I ever had any issue with you, so I really have no idea what it is that you are trying to accomplish or prove here, besides harassing me for no good reason.

    If you disagree with my opinions, that is your right and you are free to debate anything I have posted on these threads. But, you do not have the right to make false statements about me or villify me for your pleasure.

    If you persist in doing so, you will be in violation of the Comments Policy of Queerty, one of which is, no defaming. Look into it and be advised accordingly.

  • matt (the other other one)

    @Charles J. Mueller: Are you serious? You the guy who anyone can see violates that policy in about 90% of your posts. Please. Not sure if you are trying to be obtuse but there is a facebook thread on THIS site and a lot of people there took issue with the very aggressive way you dealt with others who had the slightest difference of opinion. You can dish it out but can’t take it.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    You, Sir, are a disingenuous liar. Here is what you actually said:

    No. 62 · matt (the other other one)

    @Charles J. Mueller: They chased you off the facebook thread now you want to bore people here to death.

    No where in that statement did you mention that the thread was on THIS site until just now. Obviously, you have a bit of a problem with getting your facts straight.

    I am still posting on, so your comment that “”They chased you off the facebook thread” is another disingenuous lie. You seem very prone to falsifying things.

    The only one being obtuse here is you, with your stubborn refusal to provide a link to the thread you are referring to or the date that this thread appeared on this site.

    When you make accusations against people, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. I am under no obligation to spend all evening searching for it, if indeed, it even still here.

  • matt (the other other one)

    @Charles J. Mueller: I’m sorry I obviously mistakenly assumed you were not not senile and had not forgotten about the facebook thread where you have been insulting people for days! Anyone can scan back just a week and count dozens of people you have accused, insulted,harassed to make your same 3 or 4 points over and over and over.

  • Frank

    Wow. Arson. Assault. Racism. Nice work Haramis.
    It’s reassuring that the bigotry doesn’t discriminate.

  • Faberge L'Eggs

    @Charles J. Mueller: Oh I know this is tired by now. But first, it’s totally amusing that you keep calling me the “egg lady.”

    I’m a boy.

    No, I don’t know anything about your family. I don’t really care. I didn’t insult them, or you, or anybody.

    There were never quotas against Germans, per se. I stand by that. There was major, regrettable anti-Semitic bias against admitting European Jews during the Holocaust, but that was less a quota than an ad hoc refusal in response to a specific humanitarian crisis.

    Anyway, most Germans had emigrated here during the 19th century–this is why German is actually the no. 1 ethnicity Americans claim.

    The quota systems were imposed way later than that, first against Central and Southern Europeans arriving in the 1910s and then in a more rigorous way when applied to Latin Americans, South Asians, etc., until 1965.

    Check it:

    Also, my life isn’t vapid, dull or uninteresting. It’s intellectually stimulating, sexually fulfilling and a lot of fun. I apologize for that.

    The Egg Lady, descended from lots of illiterate, superstitious people who came here illegally and worked shitty jobs

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Faberge L’Eggs:

    My apologies if I offended you with my reference to you as the “egg lady”. Just as many of your comments were apparently made tongue-in-cheek, so were mine. The name you use to post on these thread, gives no hint as to your sex so it was a toss-up.

    One of the problems with the written word, is that it lacks the dimension to allow the reader to always discern exactly what the writer intended the reader to get. I am sure that it has been the cause of many wars.

    I am delighted to hear that your life is intellectually stimulating, sexually fulfilling and a lot of fun. No need to apologize for that.

    “The Egg Lady, descended from lots of illiterate, superstitious people who came here illegally and worked shitty jobs”

    Given your seeming penchant for tongue-in-cheek comments, I will assume that this another one.

    Whatever. ;-)

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    See my reply to you on This Kid’s Sick Sexual Facebook Blackmailing.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @matt (the other other one):

    I already have one. That is obviously what is pissing you off.

    Mental illness is a serious condition, but it is treatable.

    Look into it.

  • getreal

    @Charles J. Mueller: If it is treatable go get help, stop attacking and insulting people (look how you treated people on this page read back you insulted 6 different people on this thread). You don’t intimidate me I will not sit idly by while you insult people. If you can’t take someone standing up to you stop attacking people period.

  • getreal

    @Charles J. Mueller: And stop trying to start fights with people everyone here can stand up for themselves.

  • getreal

    If we can’t treat each other with respect here what chance does this community have? This makes me so mad I could cry.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    Apparently, you never bothered to read my commentary directed to your attention. I suggest that you do so now. It was comment No. 63.

    It was as conciliatory as a rely to anyone could be short of getting down on my knees and begging to “forgive me, father, for I have sinned.” There was not one single word in that commentary that you could construe as snarky, intimidating, disrespectful, insulting or trying to start a fight with you. Hell, I even closed my reply to you with a “Thank you for your commentary.”

    What is your problem anyway? And what is it with touchy people like you who cannot deal with anyone who has an opinion that differs from what you believe and get all persnickety when everyone is not agreeing with your every word or kissing your ass? Like Matt (the other other one), it would appear to me that you are the one spoiling for a fight, not me.

    This is a blog, for crying out loud, not a mutual admiration society to get your back scratched or your ego massaged. If you are looking for those, then I suggest that you go on the Oprah Winfrey Show where you’ll get tons of treacly sympathy.

    Debate is what takes place in blogs and debate means stating points of view that run contrary to the points of views of others. Even people running for the office of President debate, in case you hadn’t noticed. Open-minded adults can debate a subject, without slamming others or stooping to character assassination, which is what people like you, Matt, the Fundies and the Magical Undies crowd do when anyone stands up to them.

    These sort of people always use the same tactic. They attack first, and then cry that they are the ones being attacked and play the role of victim when whenever anyone stands up to them. My response to that is, “if you can’t take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.”

    Stated yet another way, if you are not grown up enough to intelligently state your points of view without getting all choked up and teary eyed, then perhaps you should run home to mama and hide behind her skirts and let her fight your battles for you.

    This is still a free country, last I heard and we still have the right of freedom of speech. And unless I call you a vile and degrading name, defame or besmirch your character, threaten you or violate the Commentary Policies of this site, which I do not believe I have done in your case, then I will continue to state my opinions as I see fit and people like you and Matt will just have to grow up and get over it.

    As Bill Purdue said in another thread, “We are here and we are not going away.” Get used to it.

    Have a nice day now…unless, of course, you have other plans.

  • getreal

    I read and very much appreciated your thoughtful response. I just lost my temper when I read the vicious posts going back and forth we need to stop attacking each other. Whatever our differences we do have common ground and I get angry when I see us going at each other. I am sorry if i was disrespectful but I wish we would treat each other better. I guess I just to myself first that is why I am apologizing.

  • getreal

    @getreal: I meant I have to make sure my own behavior is just before I take people to task for their behavior let’s try to be a little gentler with each other not an order just a request.

  • Charles J. Mueller


    Apology accepted.

    I really don’t believe that it was your intent to be disrespectful and the fact that you proffered an apology, just raised my respect for you another notch.

    I, in turn, am sorry if I seemed disrespectful of you. It was not my intent either and I truly hope it will raise your esteem for me by another notch as well. ;-)

    As you so well articulated the thought, we do, indeed, have common ground and it is important that we recognize this and build for the common good of our community from that space.

    I am happy to be at peace with you.

  • Phillipe Kleefield

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    A quick clarification. I believe this is well deserved. Don’t conflate coalition building with ass-kissing. That is a sad, painful and costly mistake. Transcending one’s own marginal position in society to view those of others, while staying true to one’s own interest is a key political strategy. Your evocation of the “yes, massah” rhetoric is a pathetic attempt ( and albeit non well disguised one) to make the age-old argument of a white man with money.

    Let me guess, you also believe that black people are lazy, indolent and in need of self-help? You believe the discourse of welfare queens spread by Reagan throughout the 80’s? You also, likely believe in the power of free-markets?

    If you don’t, please correct me. However, I am more than justified to make this assumption considering your racially antagonistic ideologies disguised as “uncle tom litany”… pssh.

    I don’t believe in equating ass-kissing and the work required to build a coalition of those interested in dismantling the unfair and unjust treatment of ethnic and racial minorities, women, immigrants ( until the construction of race settled and Irish, Italians and… Germans, were interpellated into the privilege of whiteness.. before then, these men and women were screwed over).In fact, I am adamantly opposed to homonormativity and its attempts to “ass kiss” through marriage initiatives. WHile I do not agree with marriage as an institution, I will not discredit the necessity of equal marriage rights because I have transcended my own position as a young queer man to see the interests of older partnered men and women who are in desperate need of the benefits of marriage.

    The plea isn’t to kiss the ass of those who discriminate against you. It is to do the work that you direct to further marginalize illegal “aliens”, and clearly, racial and ethnic minorities ( just because you voted for Obama, does not make you un-racist, un-preudiced and un-biased— your vote was tinged with the possibility that Barack might see your gay agenda of marriage, not because you believed in the uplifting of the black community), to powerfully argue the need to work together. If this, again, is an assumption, correct me if I am wrong. But this assumption is justified considering your espoused ( barely, self-interested intentions without any sign of empathy aimed at bridging your world with those of others that are Othered).

    Your articulateness is astounding, and could be used as a tool not to kiss-ass, but to transform homophobic sentiments that are espoused within conservative communities. One point of clarification. The difference between homophobia in black and white communitites is marginally significant, and in fact, the major statisticlaly significant difference in opinions between both lies in the greater reality of blacks to support the Gay fight for civil liberties.

  • Phillipe Kleefield

    @Charles J. Mueller:

    I forget to mention the crux of my argument. You are right, opinions are like assholes, everyone has a right to them. However, your matter of fact assertions despite your simplistic, reductionist portrayal of the struggle to achieve Civil Rights is dangerous. For a less informed member of this site, your portrayal might be read as right. Suggesting the plight of the black community has solely moved from “Yes massah” to burning cities and birdges is a hostile misrepresentation and effaces the often fragmented, and contested nature of how to rightfully achieve civil rights. Examples includes: The Black Power Movement, the Nation of Islam, the Womanist Tradition, the Booker T and Dubois debates… as well as others means at collectiving the black community.

    Your portrayal also effaces the work that was done by those members outside the black community to achieve Civil Rights for Black people. While black men often headed initiatives and media representations of the Civil Rights movements, the work of black , white and other women, as well as woman, as well as young gay and lesbian activists, greatly undergirded Civil Rights initiatives.

    Your matter of fact tone belies the real work done by so many others outside of the Black community, and the heated debates and movements which characterized the Civil Rights struggles of the 50’s and 60’s.

  • Charles J. Mueller

    @Phillipe Kleefield:

    “Let me guess, you also believe that black people are lazy, indolent and in need of self-help? You believe the discourse of welfare queens spread by Reagan throughout the 80’s? You also, likely believe in the power of free-markets?

    If you don’t, please correct me. However, I am more than justified to make this assumption considering your racially antagonistic ideologies disguised as “uncle tom litany”… pssh.”

    Okaaaaay. Solely on the basis is my posts…

    You’ve made up your mind that I am a racist and racially antagonistic without knowing me or having any basis of fact.

    You’ve made up your mind that I am prejudicd without knowing me or having any basis of fact.

    You’ve made up your mind that I am biased without knowing me or having any basis of fact.

    You’ve made up your mind that I believe in Reganomics without knowing me or having any basis of fact.

    And, you’ve also made up your mind that I am believer in the power of free-markets, once again without knowing me or having any basis of fact.

    Despite the fact that several of the foregoing were never even mentioned in my reply to you, it seems that you have made up your mind about so many things about me without ever having met me. Your crystal ball exhibits incredible clarity and remarkable divining powers. And as you self-righteously pointed out, you feel that you are justified in making these assumptions about me.

    Why would I even consider confusing you with the facts?

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