After 10 months of holding Private First Class Bradley Manning in detainment at a Marine base in Virginia, the U.S. Army has at last filed its real charges against him, NBC News reports. He faces 22 counts, including downloading and transmitting classified information, fraud, and aiding the enemy (for “wrongfully obtaining classified material for the purpose of posting it on the Internet, knowing that the information would be accessed by the enemy”), a charge that carries the possibility of the death penalty, and while the Army says it will not seek it, a judge could hand it down anyhow. Wikileaks is not mentioned in the charges, and prosecutors have not tied him to Julian Assange.
Smith
When DOMA is struck down I am going to be one of those bitches who marries guys in prison, starting with Bradley Manning. He is a real HERO and I love him!
James
@Smith: ? I fail to see how endangering Americans is heroic. Please enlighten me.
Markie-Mark
@Smith: I agree with you, Smith. Whistle-blowers are brave people.
Phoenix
Governments needs to be accountable for it’s actions.
luke
What did he blow the whistle on?Why big revelation came from this?He deserves what he gets.He should be in jail for the rest of his life.
Jaroslaw
I read what I could on Wikipedia and it didn’t make any sense to me. However, he didn’t do it for money so I figured it was personal conviction. On his support website, the headline banner says “Exposing war crimes is not a crime.” It pains me to say this, but where is all the cynicism of the government and military so usually prevalent here? Do we really accept at face value the charges made by the army? Innocent until proven guilty is supposed to be the cornerstone of our justice system even IF this guy is found guilty in the future.
Matt Smith
He is not a hero he is a stooge who put the lives of innocent people – including citizens of Iraq and Pakistan who helped the United States at risk. Not to mention the security of our troops. He has discredited our President, our Secretary of State and emboldened our enemies. He is a coward. I am embarrassed that he is a member of our gay tribe.
VagrantMan
@Matt Smith:
Bradly Manning is an American Hero PERIOD. His courages act revealed how the United States-led coalition has killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents, Taliban attacks have risen, and NATO commanders worry that neighboring Pakistan and Iran are aiding the insurgency.
Had this been a Chinese citizen we would have been quick to call him a hero and condemned the Chinese government.
Michael W.
Good, kill him. Kill that piece of shit.
Kieran
I wonder where they have this poor guy locked up? Solitary confinement in Buchenwald—-er, I mean Guantanamo Bay? Julian Assange was given a televised 60 minutes interview but nobody has heard from Mr. Manning (an American citizen) since his arrest. Can you say, Political Prisoner?
Devon
But of course the war criminals he helped expose won’t be charged with anything, ever.
Jaroslaw
Matt Smith – What do you say about false intelligence reports that Bush used to start the war in Iraq? All the civilian & military casualties even before Bradley Manning was part of the picture? All the billions on a useless war that could have been bolstering our own economy?
No, rather thank think, it is far easier to pin all this on one (little) person. Like Devon says, none of the bigwigs will ever be charged……
B
No. 7 · Matt Smith wrote, “He is not a hero he is a stooge who put the lives of innocent people – including citizens of Iraq and Pakistan who helped the United States at risk. Not to mention the security of our troops. He has discredited our President, our Secretary of State and emboldened our enemies. He is a coward. I am embarrassed that he is a member of our gay tribe.”
I tend to view Manning as more of an idiot – someone who might have good intentions but didn’t have the capacity or education to understand what he was actually doing. It was certainly irresponsible of him to release any classified documents without first ascertaining that they were classified only to avoid embarrassment due to government mistakes, or that they showed behavior that violated international law, that nobody cooperating with the U.S. could be identified, etc.
The documents Daniel Elsberg released fit that criteria, but then Elsberg had a PhD., an indication that he was educated enough to understand what the impact would be. Manning simply lacks that level of sophistication, even though he may have meant well.
The real source of the embarrassment and political problems was that the U.S (government and military) failed to provide adequate access controls to this information. It involves a system called SIPRNet which basically runs Internet protocols over encrypted links with various access control and logging mechanisms.
Read http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/28/AR2010112804138.html for an overview of what actually happened
and http://www.privacylover.com/other-personal-privacy/siprnet-the-us-department-of-defense-secret-ip-router-network-busted/ (for links and for a transcript of Manning’s conversation with some guy named Lamos). Also
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20101130/pl_yblog_exclusive/wikileaks-how-could-one-person-leak-so-much-classified-material for a discussion of how so much information would be available so some guy so low down in the hierarchy. According to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11863618 “Tt is alleged that an online security system to detect suspicious use of Siprnet was switched off on computers used by the US military in Iraq following complaints that it was inconvenient, the UK’s Guardian newspaper reports.” If true, that may be the root cause of the problem.
It is plausible (until we see evidence to the contrary) that someone else actually released the stuff, having discovered how lack the security is just as Manning did, and that Manning was simply BS-ing Lamos. Lamos turned Manning in, so even if Manning was simply shooting off his mouth, we now have a scapegoat.
Jason
This is excellent news. Thumbs up!
blake
I don’t think he is a HERO… He failed to follow protocol… But reverse this… If your family or child was killed and the Government said they were in company of those with weapons and then you find out that a video proves all of this wrong… And infact they were murdered and not killed…
Now your the person who came across this video… Do you protect the organization responsible for killing innocent people or do you do something that breaks all the rules and you make it known to the public???
Regardless… If he manages to ever be released some crazy hardcore GOP loony will probably murder him….
JUST SAYIN!!!
niles
I vote for death.
Humma
No, Blake, some gay will kill him for making gays in the military look bad.
:)
In order to charge someone with “aiding the enemy” will the government have to identify who the enemy is?
I know that the enemy is dangerous and we must be afraid, and that we will engage them in any country but I’m not sure who the enemy is by name.
John
So Bradley Manning isn’t allowed to tell the truth and the W.B.C. is allowed to spread lies. Check.
Lulz H.
Sometimes I wonder where these facts are gathered… There is no chance that he will be put to death. None whatsoever. If he was going to be put to death, it would’ve happened by now and we never would’ve heard about it.
I, personally, do not care what happens. These are bigger decisions left to bigger people. I don’t mind that the government has secrets from us. It’s necessary. I also don’t mind that, from time to time, they get exposed by honest people.
This world is a twisted place and all of you are fools for trying to understand it. Live while you can.
BostonGuy
Lulz : I so agree with your second paragraph. Maybe that’s the best we can hope for and provides a bit of balance all around.
StevenW
I’ve not seen or heard of any proof that any american soldiers etc has been put at risk because of the leak. Does anyone here have any?
What I do know, however, is that holding someone imprisoned without charge has been a huge stain on the USAs’reputation overseas. The people who commited this crime – and those who commited the crimes the leaks mentioned – will naturally not suffer in the slightest. Its like Team Amercia was a documenmtary rather than a commentary – its a pity so few see that rabid nationalism will keep Manning as the scapegoat rather than the true criminals.
McMike
I have yet to hear one piece of information Manning obtained that put anyone at risk. All Manning did was expose the US government’s lies and for this they’re pissed and out for revenge. I keep hearing how Manning is a traitor, how what he did is going to jeopardize our military but no one has been able to point out any item which actually validate these claims. If exposing lies and embarrassing our government means you’re going to be jailed without charges and then perhaps get the death penalty then maybe America has become just another China.
Kev C
So most are these are stacked redundant lesser charges and one serious charge that will be difficult to prove. Punishment could be as little as a fine and a discharge. And the possibility of a pardon exists as well.
Cam
One thing I would like to know is this.
Everybody keeps saying that he put American Lives at risk, yet nobody, on the news, in the military has been able to produce one single doc that was sent out that would have done so.
Also, the leaks exposed that the U.S. military was aware that the Pakistani govt. was to a certain extent leaking information to the Taliban boarder folks, WHILE they were taking our aid. THIS lead to the death of American Soldiers.
The leaks also exposed that the govt. is aware that the Afghan govt. is corrupt, taking u.s. money and playing both sides of the field which is not only a stab at the U.S. taxpayer, but is also dangerous to the lives of U.S. soldiers.
So yes, the guy broke his oath, and will be punished for it, however, I find more in the leaks that was dangerous to U.S. soldiers, then the fact of his leaking info.
declanto
Military prosecutors have already declared they would NOT seek the death penalty. Another misleading header from Queerty.
Matt
I have to side with the hero camp. Government accountability is a very good thing, and this man risked a lot to create some. The government is essentially saying that they get to make the truth, and anyone who tries to prove them wrong is a criminal. It’s Orwell’s 1984, except in real life. I can’t believe that people are willing to villify this man and call for his death because he told the truth. A great many heroic acts have put people in danger or broken the law. If you think about it, the country was founded by a bunch of colonists who broke the law and put lots of people in danger by fighting for their freedom. Escaping slaves were breaking the law and putting people in danger. The list goes on. Manning did a brave thing, and I commend him for it.
Fagburn
@declanto: Can you read???
Queerty wrote; “a charge that carries the possibility of the death penalty, and while the Army says it will not seek it, a judge could hand it down anyhow.”
This is handy as it would let the US state wash their hands of it.
This awful news about Bradley Manning reflects very badly on the US.
HumpDay
Death to this traitorous little weasel . . . as well as all of you posting comments containing grammatical errors and laughable misspellings. Get a dictionary!
Fagburn
@HumpDay: I think you mean “treacherous”. Buy a dictionary, you right-wing goon!
hephaestion
The charge of “aiding the enemy” is a bit hard to read after all that Reagan, Bush, Dick Cheney and practically every other Republican politician has done to aid our “enemies.” The charges against Manning reak of bullshit to me. I think far more “criminal” people are running around in the RNC.
Philotas
This guy is not a hero, if you think he did this as some form of a patriotic act for you and the country to unmask all sorts of evil doings, you’re misinformed.
He was mentally unstable and going through many personal problems including a lack of control over his own life and where he perceived it was heading. Spiraling out of control, he chose to take out his frustration and anger in this unfortunate manner.
Oprah
I dont care if its legal or not, the supposed crime does not match the punishment. Besides, i am on his side, because he is a gay man and because he has a sweet innocent face.
Brian Miller
He was mentally unstable and going through many personal problems including a lack of control over his own life and where he perceived it was heading. Spiraling out of control, he chose to take out his frustration and anger in this unfortunate manner.
And you know this… how?
Ohhhh… you don’t. You made it up. I see.
Philotas
@Brian Miller:
Do some serious research before trying to engage in conversation with me again. You’ve been spoon fed so much misinformation that you have no idea what the truth is anymore. I truly feel bad for people like you.
Anyways…your post is a colossal failure, please try again with a little more brain power this time.
B
No. 24 · Cam wrote, “One thing I would like to know is this. Everybody keeps saying that he put American Lives at risk, yet nobody, on the news, in the military has been able to produce one single doc that was sent out that would have done so.”
Of course they haven’t produced a single document. If some existed out of the 250,000 diplomatic cables / over 90,000 documents (guess there was more than one cable per document), and a few of those were very useful to an enemy, why would they make an announcement telling that enemy where to look? If there is a needle in a haystack that you don’t want found, the last thing you’d want to do is to tell someone where to look.
Now the cynical reason for them going after Manning, whether he actually released the documents or was simply BSing that Lamos guy, is to convince the leaders of other countries that we do in fact take security seriously. They will react better if the leak was a freak event, and if we have enough controls in place to find and punish the culprit, making an example of him to discourage anyone else. Unfortunately, that means “a victim must be found” (to quote a line from The Mikado) and nearly any credible victim will do. With what he told Lamos, Manning fits the bill, regardless of whether he is innocent or guilty.
So, Manning might have done it, but there is a chance he is merely a convenient scapegoat – a good reason to make sure he gets a fair trial (if he is actually innocent, that means the real leaker is still running around and could do it again).
Alex
Bradley Manning = hero. Period.
There is a reason why us Europeans believe half of America is full of stupid, hotblooded, uneducated, ultra religious (brainwashed) white trash (usually Republicans). Anyone who thinks Bradley Manning should be dead is perfect proof to that.
America is NOT God’s greatest gift. Keep that in mind. In fact there is no God. And from across the pond America looks like a sad nation, because of people like you. You are your nation’s worst enemy.
tony x
Military Traitors get put to death.
Such is life – straight or gay.
We are fighting for the military to support gays – so gays should support this military decision on how to deal with a traitor.
Fagburn
@tony x: “I was only following orders” – hey, it worked for Eichmann…
Rohit
@Cam –
You are as sociopathic as Manning. You don’t give a damn about the people endangered by this mass leak of documents (s)he hadn’t even read. Negotiation strategies to obtain the release of 2 unlawfully detained hikers in Iran were exposed, thus needlessly prolonging their false imprisonment and exposing them to the continuing risk of physical abuse. An Iranian intelligence source in one cable, while not named, is described in such detail that the Iranian govt will have little problem identifying the source and torturing him. That’s just from 2 cables, again neither of which your he-she hero ever bothered to read b4 he sent them out to the world.
Fry shim.
Lefty
@Rohit: “he-she hero”?
Oh, what a surprise; a homophobe/transphobe wants to see Bradley Manning executed.
Ignoring your obvious prejudice, you demonstrate one thing: that there is no proof that the leaks Bradley Manning is accused of have resulted in a single death. If you want proof of murder, watch the “collateral murder” video.
The leaks also show that the Pentagon were aware of systematic murder of gay Iraqis 15 months before this was reported anywhere.
That’s just two examples from the leaks.
You clearly don’t give a damn about these people. Thankfully, Bradley Manning did.
[img]http://i56.tinypic.com/2608lfb.jpg[/img]
Jeffree
The proof on whether Manning leaked the information & did so single-handed still needs to be shown and evaluated. Innocent until proven guilty, eh what?
Manning’s supposed gender identity and sexual orientation may make this a “jùicier” story, explain partial motive and affect public opinion, but I hope the facts of what happened and how matter more.
Riker
@tony x: Pfc. Manning isn’t a traitor. By definition, traitors have committed treason. Treason is defined in the Constitution, and requires two witnesses to the overt act.
It is telling that they haven’t even charged him with treason, because nobody has proof and nobody saw him do it.
B
No. 40 · Rohit wrote, “Cam – You are as sociopathic as Manning. You don’t give a damn about the people endangered by this mass leak of documents (s)he hadn’t even read.”
In fact while there is a reasonable explanation for why the government is not highlighting information that might put U.S. personnel or informants at risk, Cam has every reason to be skeptical.
Just read http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/03/how-would-military-explaining-bradley-manning-nude-imprisonment-violate-his-privacy/35619/
For no apparent reason (they are stonewalling), they are leaving Manning stark naked for hours at a time. Taking suspects clothes off seems to be becoming a standard operating procedure for military/anti-terrorist interrogations.
Given the charges, it is quite believable that they are trying to abuse him to the point where he will be unable to defend himself in court. That should piss off all of us – we should demand that they convict him first before punishing him. He does deserve to get a fair trial – he is a U.S. citizen.
Rohit
@Lefty: First, I am no “homophobe”. I am gay. If you want to call me a “transphobe” go right ahead. I didn’t dislike trannies until people started telling me that I had to identify as one because I am “LGBT” (vomit).
Second, I was referring to the 250,000 leaked cables, which the pre-op tranny Manning never even read before he leaked. He can’t possibly be called a whistle blower b/c he didn’t even know what he was leaking. There could have been information on nuclear terrorism for all he knew, but hey, he had a tantrum to throw.
Third, the “collateral murder” video – labeled as such by Wikileaks and no one else – proves conclusively that there was no murder. Murder is intentional killing without excuse or justification. The video shows that the helo crew spent a great deal of time confirming that they were observing insurgents. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that they knew that 2 reporters were among the armed insurgents. They attacked the insurgents and killed them. Unfortunately, the reporters were killed as well, but that is a risk one takes when embedding with insurgents in a war zone. Manning has aided and abetted the libel of the US military by leaking that helo video. More reason to fry shim.
Jaroslaw
B (in #44) – Yes, I’m totally pissed off by the abuse of ANY prisoners. To me, if a country can’t be humane, then “fighting for democracy and other principles” is hollow.
That said, everyone knows militaries are necessary for defense and I thank God they are there but I never wanted to be a part of such a system. To put it another way, everyone who joins, knows being in the Army is not a tea party.
Soupy
I am very upset that Manning would be prosecuted and detained while Bush and Cheney still roam free. Let’s talk about the real endangerment of American lives and what that means.
Lefty
@Rohit: said “First, I am no “homophobe”. I am gay. If you want to call me a “transphobe” go right ahead. I didn’t dislike trannies until people started telling me that I had to identify as one because I am “LGBT” (vomit).”
To be absolutely honest with you, dear, I imagine most trans people would feel nauseous at being grouped in with someone like you. As would I.
“Third, the “collateral murder” video – labeled as such by Wikileaks and no one else – proves conclusively that there was no murder. Murder is intentional killing without excuse or justification. The video shows that the helo crew spent a great deal of time confirming that they were observing insurgents. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that they knew that 2 reporters were among the armed insurgents. They attacked the insurgents and killed them. Unfortunately, the reporters were killed as well, but that is a risk one takes when embedding with insurgents in a war zone. Manning has aided and abetted the libel of the US military by leaking that helo video. More reason to fry shim.”
I was going to say you clearly haven’t watched the video, but it wouldn’t surprise me if you had.
For those who haven’t and who have a modicum of conscience: The two Reuters journalists can clearly be seen and identified in the video and yet the Apache – from over a mile away – still opens up on them. After they indiscriminately lays waste to everyone in the town square, the video clearly shows a civilian van pulling up to collect the bodies with absolutely no weapons in sight and which presents no danger to anyone. But the Apache opens up on that too. Killing more civilians. A civilian van that crashed on the scene was targeted by the Apache.
One of the first US soldiers on the ground to walk on to the scene, Ethan McCord, describes not only the horrific carnage in the street but also what he saw inside the van: a little girl with “a severe belly wound” and glass in her eyes, a 7 year old boy on the floor with “a severe wound to the right side of his head” who he thought was dead and their father huddled over them trying in vain to protect them – he was dead too.
He got on the radio and requested the evacuation of the small girl who was still alive: “We need to evac this child. She’s got a wound to the belly.” To which the response was: “Well it’s their fault for bringing their kids into a battle.” This was a street, not a battlefield.
According to McCord this wasn’t an isolated incident but an “everyday occurrence”:
“…we had a pretty gung-ho commander, who decided that because we were getting hit by IEDs a lot, there would be a new battalion SOP [standard operating procedure]. He goes, “If someone in your line gets hit with an IED, 360 rotational fire. You kill every motherfucker on the street.” Myself and Josh and a lot of other soldiers were just sitting there looking at each other like, “Are you kidding me? You want us to kill women and children on the street?” And you couldn’t just disobey orders to shoot, because they could just make your life hell in Iraq. So like with myself, I would shoot up into the roof of a building instead of down on the ground toward civilians. But I’ve seen it many times, where people are just walking down the street and an IED goes off and the troops open fire and kill them.”
The deliberate murder of civilians is a war-crime.
As I say, this is just one incident brought to light by whoever leaked those documents/videos.
There are many more.
Now, I don’t expect someone who feels like vomiting at the mention of transgender people yet whose only reaction – after watching the murder of children and the blase, almost jovial response from the murderers in the cock-pit – is to worry about the libelling of the US military, to have any kind of rational human response to the courage of someone like Bradley Manning, but thankfully you appear to be in the minority.
justiceontherocks
So many people claiming so much knowledge when almost no facts are in. Such a mythology has been built up about Bradley Manning we may never know the truth of it. The rampant, often ignorant speculation in this post is just more proof that we know very little about this case, and ought to wait a while before we declare the guy a hero or a villain. At this point, he could be either, or just a poor guy who is caught up in something that is none of his doing.
Rohit
@Lefty:
Just wanted to respond by calling you out as a liar. You have no conscience inasmuch as you are prepared to make things up to suit your ideological goals.
I did view the video, in full and several times. The AP reporters are not “clearly visible”. They are a couple of figures amidst a group of men, some of whom are very clearly wielding RPGs. The fact that you would assert that they are identifiable as reporters shows you are a liar, since reporters do not prominently mark themselves in the manner of a red cross vehicle. Also, there is not a single word from the Apache pilots or ground control to indicate that they knew there were reporters in the kill zone. You are simply a liar.
McCord was not the pilot and he has no personal knowledge pertinent to the actions of the pilots. The statement from the pilot that the Iraqis should not be bringing children into a war zone was not in response to McCord. McCord was not communicating with the Apache and he wouldn’t be calling the Apache to get an ambulance. It was an exclamation after a horrendous incident. While you may not like the statement, it happens to be a correct statement. Moreover, these guys are not there to kill civilians, so it is perfectly understandable that the pilot’s first reaction to this horror would be to place blame where it belongs – on the insurgents who insist on fighting in civilian areas, using civilian vehicles and wearing civilian garb.
To sum up, you are lying scum or you are abjectly ignorant. Your main concern is to uphold your “queer” “lefty” ideology. You and your righty counterpart, Glen Beck, can both go jump in a lake.
PS
If shemales don’t want to be lumped in with gays and lesbians as you suggest, then why are we arguing? Let’s stop the madness now. Terminate LGBT with extreme prejudice. Unfortunately, the truth is that Ts know that they are better off hijacking the gay movement than striking out on their own.
Jadis
Wow, look at the baying for blood from the running dogs! See them licking their knives and baring their fangs. Their master has been humiliated, and this will not do. Let their tiny pricks stand to attention as they strut and march in red-faced rage. Spit at the hated face smiling at them like Alfred E Newman from behind the screen. A daily duty, a prayer.
And fear. Fear that he might be Tribe, and fingers could once again point in their direction if the opportunists manage successfully to exploit the implied guilt by association assumed by the hoi polloi.
Solution: expulsion. As Bradley Manning was made a scapegoat to distract from the horrific crimes of their sacred eagle, so they must find a scapegoat in turn. The choice is an obvious one. A synthetic history is rapidly manufactured and then disseminated at low cost via the comment boxes on popular Tribe sites.
See, he’s not one of us at all, Sir. He/she is really a yucky trannyshim, subversive liar and Decepticon. We’re not freaks like them, we read the same newspapers as you!
The Wikileaks leak was really only a tiny divulgence in the totality of the monstrous crime that was and is the Iraq war of conquest, a war that was conducted with the kind of cruelty that would make Sargon the Great blush with shame.
Everything that was learned from the ocean of blood that was World War Two has been lost. The Geneva Conventions have been swept away as obsolete. I guess the Nuremberg trials were really just hypocritical victor’s justice all along.
My grandfather, who lost part of himself in Normandy, would cry to see the world as it is today. Truly mankind never learns.
You toads can reply if you want, but there’s no point in me responding because there’s nothing in your brains but marching. Keep marching, little boys, and remember: the faster you march, the sooner you cum.
Lefty
@Rohit: said: “I did view the video, in full and several times. The AP reporters are not “clearly visible”. They are a couple of figures amidst a group of men, some of whom are very clearly wielding RPGs. The fact that you would assert that they are identifiable as reporters shows you are a liar, since reporters do not prominently mark themselves in the manner of a red cross vehicle. Also, there is not a single word from the Apache pilots or ground control to indicate that they knew there were reporters in the kill zone. You are simply a liar.”
Maybe you need your eyes tested, dear, but I’m sorry to inform you that the two Reuters journalists are clearly visible. Namir Noor-Eldeen can clearly be seen holding a camera. They were both killed. I can see it’s a camera and not a gun. I think the soldiers who murdered them probably had a great deal of experience wih guns and could tell the difference between a gun and a camera.
The majority of the people in the area and who are visible on camera were unarmed.
This is clear.
These are facts.
“Moreover, these guys are not there to kill civilians, so it is perfectly understandable that the pilot’s first reaction to this horror would be to place blame where it belongs…”
This is a street in Baghdad. You do realise ordinary people live and work here, don’t you? This isn’t a neutral battlefield.
Again, you say trans people make you sick but feel compelled to defend the murder of civilians, women and children by the US Army.
What a funny little man you are.
Renee
Manning isn’t Trans, I don’t know why people keep saying so.
In the transcript from the chat the use of the word transition CLEARLY was referring to ACAP and leaving the Army, it’s a common term.
I’m a transsexual AND a veteran of the Army, it’s pretty obvious to me what’s going on.
People need to realize that the Military is like it’s own self-contained reality with it’s own words and everything. More people should actually consult with members of the military before making bold claims.
I refuse to comment on whether or not I think what he did was right. My view on that is pretty much a departure from what both sides seem to be saying. There just doesn’t seem to be room for non-heated discussion here.
However I had to comment on the trans thing because it’s annoying. Not for any socio-political reason or anything but rather because it’s just not true.
Rohit
@Lefty: The cameras were not visible the pilots and there is nothing on the audio to show that they were aware of cameras. More importantly, the insurgents for years have filmed their attacks for later use in propaganda and recruiting videos. So even if they had seen cameras, that would not have mattered.
So you have a group of men, engaged in coordinated activity with several holding RPGs. They are observed for a long time as the helo crew is attempting to both confirm their status as insurgents and to get a clear shot and avoid hitting anyone else. And as a further back-up, they must get specific authorization to fire from their base. That isn’t murder under any definition. A true collateral murder would have been about 1 minute long, and would have shown the helo crew exclaiming “Hey, look at those journalists! Let’s waste them!”
As you are so greatly concerned with civilian casualties, you might address your comments to the side that actively seeks to maximize civilian casualties. Please tell your insurgent friends to stop deliberately bombing mosques and job sites, waging war amidst civilians, dressed as civilians, and using civilians as shields. Of course, you care nothing about civilians or any other human life. You care about being a good “lefty” and supporting whatever ideological delusion is driving you this week.
@Renee:
Manning is a shim. Read the whole chat transcript. It is very clear that Manning talks about himself as a girl and is planning to become a female.
Lefty
@Rohit: said “…the helo crew is attempting to both confirm their status as insurgents and to get a clear shot and avoid hitting anyone else.”
You must be joking!? They laid waste to every single human being in sight.
Were they trying to avoid hitting the van that pulls up to help the casualties? Oh no, that’ll be the van and the people inside they riddled with bullets.
Your rationale about “insurgents” using cameras is equally bonkers – you seem to be suggesting that the army is within its rights to gun down anyone walking down the street holding a camera at waist height.
So according to you, the US Army is well within its rights to kill anyone holding a camera, any civilians who are walking around the streets that they live and work in and Iraqi women and children who are unlucky enough to be… well, anywhere in Iraq.
Why are you even bothering to try and rationalise your position? You’ve already made yourself quite clear: you find trans people sickening but see nothing wrong with the US Army murdering civilians, women and children.
What a bizarre man.
Renee
@Rohit:
Not really, no. Everyone jumps on the use of the words transition and some other vague stuff but Manning is CLEARLY talking about ACAP and transitioning out of the Military.
I’ve heard conversations like that more times than I can count in the years that I spent in the Army. Plus I’ve also heard the stories of actual transsexuals seeing as how I am one.
Pretty sure I know what I’m talking about.
Renee
Check out the official ACAP (Army Career and Alumni Program) website:
http://www.acap.army.mil/
See what the banner says? “The Army’s official home page for transition.”
People need to learn to fact check better.
Renee
http://www.acap.army.mil/
That’s the official website for the Army Career and Alumni Program.
Look at what the banner says: “The Army’s Official home page for transition.”
People need to learn to at least do some cursory examination of the facts before jumping to wild conclusions.
Lefty
@Renee: said “People need to learn to at least do some cursory examination of the facts before jumping to wild conclusions.”
I think the point was made on Fagburn almost a year ago that Manning isn’t Trans.
If there’s one thing I’ve learnt from this whole story it’s that people keep on repeating untruths long after they’ve been disproven.
Jadis
@Lefty: Sociopaths often repeat untruths long after they have been debunked, as long as they feel they can gain political advantage from the disinformation.