Did you know that “sometime this week,” gay rights advocates will formally decide whether 2010 or 2012 is the best time to try to repeal Prop 8? Maybe they even asked for your opinion on the matter!
But probably not. You see, there are two warring camps in this strategy decision: The old guard, made up of wealthy donors and political strategists who don’t want to have to pay for two repeal efforts if 2010 fails, and the new breed of younger grassroots-y activists, who are all like, “Why wait for our rights?,” which is a pretty basic question, but the folks asking have terrible FICO scores and will only be contributing $10 to the cause, not $100,000. Also: Sometimes there are organizations posing as these more democratic, “new age” activists, when really they’re part of the old guard with better email listserv software.
Which means that despite all the in-fighting between California’s gay marriage leaders, they’ve all pretty much agreed: wait until 2012.
Some media outlets are already making the call for 2012. “Sources” tell San Diego’s 10News.com that it’s going to be three years away for a ballot initiative. And by “sources,” they mean “Gay Inc. insiders.” Among those expected to make a “we’re waiting till 2012” announcement is Equality California, an organization real grassroots activists tend to hate. And despite its best efforts to pose as something like the anti-HRC, Equality California’s critics might point out it’s part of the same closed-door, self-elected planning committee everyone else is.
Of course, EQ and its head Geoff Kors do not have the final say, but it has much better PR skillz if it’s already getting California media to declare its version of things the “official” decision. There are smaller groups out there that may still try to put Prop 8 up to voters in 2010. Bless them and their chutzpah!
Meanwhile, it’s worth reading William Bradley’s round up of reasons for and against waiting until 2012. If anything, it’ll have you believing the Olson-Boies lawsuit has a better chance of passing than any big orgs supporting a 2010 repeal.
Brian
We need to change minds, not dates. Playing politics with “infected” believers will never win anything. We have to change the religious “beliefs” that cause people to vote against. The penalty of “burning in Hell for an eternity” is much more of an incentive than “fairness.”
We must have the courage (for the first time as a movement) to put Equality BEFORE Religion. As long as we continue to be defined as “wrong,” it will be reflected in people’s beliefs and votes.
Cam
Brian, that was well said, and in a perfect world I would agree with you, but when people pushed for the abolishion of laws that descriminated against minorites, those laws hit the courts and were changed. People didn’t sit around waiting for folks in Alabama to change their minds. Remember, in the year 2000 over 40% of the state of Alabama voted NOT to remove their state law against inter-racial marriage from their books, even though it was superceded by federal law.
The thing that these organizations fear more than anything is losing control. Just tell them people will keep filing lawsuits to get the law thrown out if they don’t push an effort for repeal in 2010. Lawsuits terrify them, they don’t get credit for them.
Andrew
@Cam: We can start by rejecting the RELIGIOUS LIE that homosexuality is wrong. MLK referred to many passages in the Bible endorsing “slavery” as a “lie” and rejected them. We can do the same thing.
HRC is embracing religion, “aiding and abetting the enemy.”
We’re not wrong.
Andrew
@Cam: “. . . in a perfect world.”
In a perfect world we would be equal. If we don’t reject what makes us “imperfect,” stupid religious doctrine (that incidentally does not have any EVIDENCE)we just continue to sanction the result: hate and discrimination.
Our aimless “movement” needs a target. The end of being defined as “wrong” is the most obvious target on the landscape.
Quack
This is a totally spurious article. Anyone who’s ever signed up for the Courage Campaign (ie: Rick Jacobs) emails knows that the problem is not that some star chamber of gays are deciding the fate, but that to get a 2010 chance, these groups need money to fund an effort. The Courage Campaign has raised $100,000 and needs that to be matched by donors to begin the process of getting a ’10 initiative going. No money, no movement.
Again, this anti-gay site misleads the facts so that they can keep up the image that nothing is happening in the community to discourage you from having any real hope or to get involved. What a terrible, hateful, lazy site.
If equality is important to YOU, there is something you can do. You can go out and help raise money. You can join these organizations. Nobody claims to have all the answers, but unless you get up off your ass and do something, instead of blaming these “leaders”, nothing WILL happen.
Does anyone else find this unsigned article offensive? “Why oh why won’t the gay leaders do things the way we like them to when we want them to, even though we’re not going to lift a finger to either help them– or hell, lift a finger to bother to check our facts?”
Again- Queerty is an anti-gay website. Prove me wrong.
Julian Edward Domain
I sent this to HRC in response to a fundraising email
You guys have the nerve to ask me for money???? I’m transgendered and yes I’m still pissed about your lack of recognition of transgendered rights, not responding to the 8 fight even though those I organize with were told by you you would get to it, much, much too late and you keep telling us to wait till the next election cycle for rights. No, I went through this with Clinton too, wait till you can’t do anything about it is the way it goes. You want to wait fine, just don’t ask me or my cohorts for funds while you do, we want rights NOW!
Julian Edward Domain
— On Tue, 8/11/09, Joe Solmonese, Human Rights Campaign wrote:
The response was a list of talking points that doesn’t address any one of my issues.
schlukitz
Brian and Andrew, I am with you 100 percent up to the point where you say, like Getreal, that we have to change the minds and hearts of the religious homophobes who voted Yes on Prop8, one-at-a-time, step-by-step, mind-by-mind, heart-by-heart. ZZZZZzzzzzzz
That’s where I side with Cam. We will all be long dead and buried by the time we win these die-hards over. We need ACTION. Immediate action, not more HRC, ACLU and NAACP apologetics and walking on eggshells approaches, lest we offend.
How can we stick our heads in the sand and ignore the fact that had black civil-rights not be passed as law and their rights voted on, as we are accepting today, we might still be living in a land where slavery is the law of the day, just as unequal rights is the law of the land for LGBT people?
I just don’t get it. Why is everyone so willing to waste so many precious years of life, sitting around, waiting, praying and hoping for others to possibly have a change of heart while we continue to be denied our most basic of rights by the moral majority? This is nothing but outright tyranny of the masses; plain and simple and no one seems to understand that.
Repeat after me.
CIVIL-RIGHTS IS NOT AN ISSUE TO BE VOTED ON BY THE MAJORITY.
Louder. I can’t hear you! ;0)
schlukitz
@Julian Edward Domain:
Why am I not surprised at the response you got?
I am so ashamed over their lack of support for Transgendered people, as I am over Barney Franks dropping of support for that part of our community as well. It was an outrage.
At least you got a response. That’s more than I ever received from those phony-balonys after all my years of membership and financial support, which is why I am no longer a dues paying member of HRC. It will be a cold day in hell when I ever even re-consider becoming a member again.
They can rot in hell, for all I care! I hope they fold from lack of financial support.
Joe told us to “wait” for our rights.
Joe can “wait” for our financial support, in that case. Get us some rights, and then we’ll send you some money as a reward.
Hey…fair is fair, no?
Cam
@Andrew: you said “Our aimless “movement” needs a target. The end of being defined as “wrong” is the most obvious target on the landscape.”
Yes, and the problem being is that if minorities had waited until minds were changed they would have waited a hell of a lot longer than they did to get equality. We have their examples of how they gained their rights and yet we have completely ignored lessons that could be learned from it. I frankly don’t care if anybody thinks my life is wrong or evil. A slim majority shouldn’t be able to legislate discrimination, THERE is the problem, not where Billy Bob in Alabama thinks “Queers are bad”. Stop worrying about what the kids at the cool lunch table think and start getting our act together.
youcanthandlethetruth
You really think you can overturn centuries of religious faith and millenia of human wisdom and instinct in 2-3 years??
The redefinition of marriage for homosexuals is not simply a matter of “re-education”.
Nothing you can ever say will change the fact that one man one woman is the basis for having babies and raising families.
bystander
I’m amazed by the number of irrational people who think they can change anything simply by being loud and angry. Such behavior only undermines an argument. The Abolition of Slavery, woman’s suffrage, Civil Rights legislation were all enacted through the democratic progress. Is that completely fair? Maybe not. Get used to it. Accept it. And embrace intelligence not outrage to get what you deserve.
galefan2004
@youcanthandlethetruth: You do realize that before the Greek and Roman gods were myths they were followed for a much longer time than the Christian gods ever were? You do realize that Christianity and even Judaism are actually the new boys on the religious block? Make no doubt about the stories of the sky daddy that sacrificed himself to himself will eventually go the way of Zeus and Thor. However, its nothing that we are doing to change the way religion works its being done in the religions themselves. Conservative churches are hemorrhaging members and the only churches that are growing are on the liberal side and are much less likely to teach “turn or burn” and much more likely to teach “what would jesus do” messages. The gay community doesn’t need to change the church at all. The church is changing itself. Like it or not, asshat christers fundie pigs such as yourself that are only anti-gay because its the only sin you haven’t done yet so it must be the worst are a very small minority now.
galefan2004
@Brian: Its funny how Hell doesn’t even exist in the Christian Bible but religions still cling to “turn or burn”. The problem with “turn or burn” is that when you live in a world that isn’t going well its hard to make people believe anything worse could possibly happen.
Quack
Over the weekend, the call for repealing Prop 8 in 2010 grew louder in the grassroots. At the request of the Courage Campaign, Steve Hildebrand — former deputy campaign manager for Barack Obama’s presidential campaign — spoke to a large gathering of marriage equality activists on Sunday in Los Angeles and said the following:
“I’d rather have your odds than the odds we had with the Obama campaign. Think about that… This community has to show the kind of courage that it has if you’re going to go in 2010… If you go in 2010 — and my outside perspective is that you should — you’ve got to go in with all guns blazing.”
Since we sent you the urgent message below, 1,027 members of the Courage Campaign community have raised $58,033 — an average of $56.51 per person. And other grassroots organizations like Marriage Equality USA and Meet in the Middle have joined us as well, challenging their members to step up and help finance the research necessary to place an initiative on the 2010 ballot.
If 1,000 more people can raise $41,967 by August 13, we will meet the time-sensitive $100,000 goal we set for the Courage Campaign community — and half of the $200,000 needed to launch this mission-critical research as soon as possible.
We have less than 60 hours to raise $41,967 from Courage members. Will you help us get over the top by donating whatever amount you can afford — $25, $50, $100, $500 or more — by 11:59 p.m. on Thursday? Please make a contribution before time runs out:
http://www.couragecampaign.org/2010
youcanthandlethetruth
@galefan2004: Au contraire factions of churches like the Episcopalians who have flouted God’s Word and sided with acceptance of homosexuality are the ones who are losing members fast.
They have lost their way and will ultimately lose out.
You may think Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all going to fade away so you can create an immoral, secularist “paradise” but I doubt whether even you think it will happen by 2012!
If and when it does happen you still have to “re-educate” all the non-churchgoing believers and non-believers who find homosexual marriage unpalatable.
schlukitz
@bystander:
I’m amazed by the number of irrational people who think they can change anything simply by being loud and angry. Such behavior only undermines an argument.
WRONG!!!
You obviously were not yet born when half of America’s cities were set ablaze by angry blacks who were also tired of the white man’s lies, rhetoric, discrimination, bigotry and broken promises.
Nor, were you around when Susan B. Anthony and a host of other women stood on street corners, protesting and shouting angrily as they DEMANDED, not begged for their civil-rights.
THAT was what got black’s civil-rights and women’s civil-rights enacted through the Democratic process.
Crack a history book or two , eh?
Ja
@youcanthandlethetruth: The writing is on the wall: eventually we will win marriage equality. Maybe not next year, maybe not in 3 even, but one day, yes. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
It seems by your constant presence here that’s a truth you just can’t handle.
youcanthandlethetruth
@Ja: All evidence to the contrary.
Americans have voted against homosexual marriage every single chance they have had.
30 states, including California have amended their Constitutions and 4 more vote this November.
And every time you try to draw comparisons with the noble struggle of black Americans – you lose more support from black Americans.
galefan2004
@youcanthandlethetruth: Do some fucking research. Members have left “turn or burn” churches in droves over the years for new mega churches that teach “god loves everyone”. The break in the Episcopalian church has much less to do with losing members and much more to do with breaking off due to differing beliefs. However, it will be interesting to see who ends up winning that argument because a church can vote to break off, but that doesn’t mean that the members will stay in that church. Come back in 10 years and tell me the Episcopalian church died and those that broke off lived because the verdict is simply not out yet.
God’s word can be misquoted to say any fucking thing you want it to. The Bible condemns everything from eating shrimp to being a disobedient child to being gay. It condones everything from killing your own child to owning slaves. Every interpretation is different. Jesus fulfilled the law of the Jews so that law is dead now, and its funny how no other part of that law gets thrown up like the man on man action does. I don’t see preachers preaching sermons on stoning your disobedient children or causing an abomination by eating shrimp and pork. I don’t see you going to pork manufacturers sites and telling them they are all going to hell because they turned away from the laws of god. Maybe you should try to reading the ape shit crazy book called Leviticus before you start making judgments based on it.
Actually, the polls all say it will happen by 2026. You may think that just because 80% of this nation identifies as Christian they are all as ape shit crazy as you are, but its simply not the case. American Christians are NOT dogmatic. They go to church to hear a sermon and they claim they believe in god but the vast majority of them live their lives separate of their faith. That is why when you run the numbers just as many religious people get divorced (divorce is turning away from god) have premarital sex (fornication is turning away from god) and commit adultery (yet again turning away from god) as secular people. Lets face it every single church and every single person has turned away from the original christian views its not just to accept gays. Hell, if we still followed traditional christianity husbands would still own wives as property be able to beat them when they are bad and not let them out of the house without their entire bodies covered. Muslims get their treatment of women from Christianity dogma.
Actually, you don’t have to reeducate anyone. You see, what you fail to realize is that ignorance is bliss. There are so many stereotypes running rampant about gays that most people that hate them don’t even know them. It changes people’s minds quickly when they actually have friends that are gay. Hell, it even changes the minds of religious people hence why the split in the church.
youcanthandlethetruth
@galefan2004: You can carry on hoping that every major world religion reverses itself on the question of redefining marriage for homosexuals.
But the facts remain the same.
Americans have voted against homosexual marriage every single chance they have had.
30 states, including California have amended their Constitutions and 4 more vote this November.
And every time you try to draw comparisons with the noble struggle of black Americans – you lose more support from black Americans.
schlukitz
@youcanthandlethetruth:
You may think Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all going to fade away so you can create an immoral, secularist “paradise” but I doubt whether even you think it will happen by 2012!
Smoke, mirrors and snake-oil is all religious nuts like you have. Oh yes…and your Liturgical Incense that you like to sniff in church. More and more people are getting wise to your charlatans, seers and self-appointed Gurus who can’t even agree amongst yourselves? And like the mighteous of mountains, wind, rain and sunlight eventually erode your religions away.
You really think you can overturn centuries of religious faith and millenia of human wisdom and instinct in 2-3 years??
That might be more truthfully stated as:
You really think you can overturn centuries of religious opression and millenia of human ignorance and a “natural appetite” (instinct) for killing, to name but one.
Cavemen had many “instincts” that he acted on and which civilized man no longer recognizes or accepts as a model for human societal behavior.
This may come as a complete shock to you, but we are no longer living in the jungle.
schlukitz
Typo: “mighteous” should be “mightiest”.
youcanthandlethetruth
@schlukitz: Clearly you have a lot of bigotry and intolerance toward people of faith, based on all kinds of confused stereotypes.
Perhaps you should follow galefan’s advice and get to know somebody who has deep Christian convictions.
It changes people’s minds quickly when they actually have friends that are Christian.
M Shane
@Brian: You are right about changing minds in a bigger way than is just expressed in this issue. The GOP has made this country such an apparent mish mash of beliefs that they can only get their way economically, even though it is contrary to their well being by keeping the Religious fanatics caught up in fear and hatred which is unleashed at the gay people. (Who is more conveniet?).
This is scary in the way that it is not at all unlike pre Nazi Germany’s spite for the Jews. It’s called scapegoating.
Gays are innocent victims, but we are convenient, and large enough to seem like a palpable threat.
I saw an article the other day which said that one of their Major Family Values programs rated approx 30% of both houses as being 100% with them.
Hitler found his power democrtically. Given the hatefulness of these Christian rednecks, and the unprecidented and illegal buildup of military power we could very well have the same thing occuring here. This sounds extreme, but Im sure that many of the Jews didn’t expect what happened to them.
galefan2004
@youcanthandlethetruth: You can think whatever you want, but the truth is that the change in politics has happened. People are getting much more away from their religion and starting to be much more accepting and loving of people regardless of anything that is out of their control.
This nation has made a great deal of atrocities in its history, and its treatment of gay people will go down in that list eventually. Hell, it wasn’t very long ago that you weren’t given a marriage license to marry if you were an interracial couple, and I absolutely do not agree with you at all that the black community as a whole is giving us less support than ever before.
What you fail to see is that this nation has turned to supporting gay people more than it ever has. They are in the culture of this nation much more than religious fundies like you ever will be. You know who is to thank for the nation embracing gay people? People like you that hate someone simply because of an aspect of his/her humanity that he/she can not control. You see, in America, although it takes more time to do the right thing the right thing is always eventually done.
You also fail to mention, that for all of those states that have anti-gay marriage amendments it has much less to do with gays and lesbians and much more to do with the way we define marriage in this country. Thirty states have anti-discrimination laws against gays and lesbians as well, but you don’t exactly mention that, and more states seek to do that all the time as well. Ohio will hopefully soon be joining that list.
You see, in my opinion, if gays and lesbians would stop fighting over the word marriage and start fighting over the rights that go along with being married then the nation would have been much more willing to embrace the cause. Its a fight over a word. Thankfully, all those old fucks that vote hate are a dieing breed and they aren’t getting replaced anytime soon because the newer generation simply isn’t as willing to embrace the stupidity of religion and hate someone based on something completely out of their control.
galefan2004
@youcanthandlethetruth: I don’t have to hope that they will they already are. The facts are that the United States is now the most Christian nation on earth and even in the United States the mega churches that are succeeding teach “love your fellow man” not “turn or burn”. That is a shift you have to be stupid not to see. Then again, look who I’m talking to.
You sound like a fucking broken record. However, for starters the black community is becoming more accepting and embracing as is the community as a whole. I’m sorry if that frightens you or you just simply don’t want to admit it. Also, they voted to deny gay marriage. They never voted to deny gay rights. They voted against the concept of marriage being extended.
Fewer people actually support the denial of rights. It might shock you, but I’m actually not for gay marriage in that I don’t think the word marriage should be used to define the struggle. The fight is over the rights not the term. I support civil unions. I don’t want a word that has been responsible for things such as wives being owned as property and being able to be beaten by their husbands at a moments notice for any reason and no laws in place to prevent it (because we didn’t really even recognize the rights of women in this country until the early 1900s) to be associated with me. I’m just fine with the word civil unions as long as those civil unions are designed to give me every right a marriage has.
duttybarb
No. 10 · youcanthandlethetruth
Good One!!!!!
galefan2004
@youcanthandlethetruth: No it really fucking doesn’t. Some of my best friends are Christian and we remain friends until they start spouting off their religious stupidity. I call them on their bull shit and we change the subject pretty fucking fast. I’ve been invited to church by my friends and I always reply that we are friends regardless of their religion not because of it.
Apparently, you need religion to survive because you could never make actual friends on your own because in real life no one can possibly stand you so you use religion to be in the all boys club. It must suck that more and more people abandon organized religion every day and even the ones that stay behind are more likely to think independently of their religion then blindly follow the dogma that you do.
Cam
@youcanthandlethetruth: You said “And every time you try to draw comparisons with the noble struggle of black Americans – you lose more support from black Americans.”
____________________________________________________________
I know your type. You are the type of person who laughed during the movie “Shindler’s List” because it didn’t speak to YOUR experience. Well I”ve got news for you, pain is pain, discrimination is discrimination, and the nobility of one groups struggle isn’t reserved to that group alone. Your bigotry is your own problem, stop trying to act like it’s mine.
galefan2004
@M Shane: Yes, but what you have to remember is that after Hitler, Germany became one of the most open and friendly places in this entire world. Its because people finally saw the own shit on their knees. I’m not really looking forward to it, but if I have to suffer through the full brunt of homophobia to help enlighten people and pave the way for future generations then by all means ship my ass off to a death camp.
duttybarb
Galefan2004: Kindly point me in the direction of the black community that is becoming more accepting.
The long and short of it…2 years, 20years, 200 years..it wont matter…Unless gays are going to deprogramme the world..as long as honest religion exists…people will still homosexuality as the perversion it is.
duttybarb
Cam..
That comment is pretty dumb. You want to compare your struggle to Blacks, Jews and other minorities whose very existence has made them victims for centuries.. don’t make me laugh.
These minorities dont want to even identify with you!
They are insulted you compare their struggle to yours. It is a blatant insult to even try to..DOJ has shut down this argument…just stop..its getting sad now.
galefan2004
@Cam: But he has had to struggle with his bigotry and slowly watching all of his friends turn away from him (unless he lives in some really fucked up area like small town Texas) because of those views. He has probably also had to watch members of his church disappear as they got wise to what the pulpit bully was spouting about. We should feel sorry for this poor man because he is a proud member of one of the most hated groups in America.
This man is a bigot, and some day this man will be judged for his views and have to answer to god when god asks him how he missed very important parts of the bible such as “judge not less thee be judged,” “love your neighbor as yourself,” “and for god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die for all sin and WHOSOEVER (funny it doesn’t say everyone but gay people) believeth on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life” but picked right up on some obscure versus that compare homosexuality to eating shrimp.
Then this poor pathetic wrench of a “christian” will have to learn what god really meant when he said vengeance was his.
galefan2004
@duttybarb: There is no bloody fucking thing as “honest religion”. Religion has been a tool to control the masses for as long as it existed. It only exists to control the masses. I wonder if you are barefoot and pregnant in your kitchen every day serving your man. If you aren’t, then you are proof that religion changes. You can’t be so naive (or possibly even stupid) to think that religion doesn’t change. Hell, if religion didn’t change women still wouldn’t have the right to vote and slavery would still be legal because religion has supported both the removal of women’s rights and slavery in this very country. When the womens’ rights movement first started the churches attacked any woman that dared to stand up for her rights as being unchristian and unpatriotic. So, tell me again how nothing ever changes you crazy lunatic bitch.
Oh, I’m assuming you have a man to serve like your religion tells you to. That is assuming any man would want what you have to offer. I might be assuming to much.
duttybarb
Galefan 2004
White noise much?
Honest religion not the sweet sinners of the episcopalian church. Gay bishops(hahahahahahahahahaha)..sad sad sad
youcanthandlethetruth
@galefan2004: You love those swingeing generalisations and stereotypes doncha!
Perhaps it makes it easier for you to justify your anti-religious bigotry and hate.
You also contradict yourself when you suggest that people who are close to homosexuals will change their minds about homosexual marriage, but you don’t seem to want to change your mind about “religion” when interacting with your religious friends?
Again that sounds like bigotry and intolerance on your side.
BiaPlz
@duttybarb: Girl, you are bat-sh*t crazy!! But I kinda love you for it because I seriously laugh out loud when I read your crazy person posts and it lightens the work day.. I just have one question, also for cra-cra youcanthandlethetruth: How old are you??
Geoff M
I just received another email from the HRC asking for more money for the no excuses campaign. I really want to lend my money and support but am so disallusioned with HRC I’m not sure they’re the best option.
youcanthandlethetruth
@Geoff M: Give the money to starving children in Africa instead.
Teddy
@youcanthandlethetruth: Or give it to starving children in the United States whose heterosexual parents can’t take care of them.
Chitown Kev
@youcanthandlethetruth:
You know what, our struggle is just as noble as that of black Americans. And I am in a position to make that statement.
Mark Snyder
The organizational infrastructure that supports queer youth, the trans community, the HIV/AIDS community, the homeless – those most in need – is crumbling due to budget cuts. At the same time some in our community are focused solely on the issue of marriage equality. I believe it to be our moral imperative to construct a movement that simultaneously advocates for equality while working to rebuild our infrastructure to address the concerns of those most in need. The question at the top of my mind is, “can we sustain our infrastructure and build strong long-lasting, cross-movement coalitions by 2010?”. My inclination is no.
The “new grassroots” activists you speak of are mostly rich white lawyers from LA and their new young followers.
Chitown Kev
@duttybarb:
Bitch, you just need to stop!
Anthony in Nashville
@Brian:
Given your opinion that we need to combat/challenge people’s “religion” in order to gain equality, do you feel we can make significant enough headway for a victory in 2010?
B.
schlukitz wrote, “I just don’t get it. Why is everyone so willing to waste so many precious years of life, sitting around, waiting, praying and hoping for others to possibly have a change of heart while we continue to be denied our most basic of rights by the moral majority?”
The real issue is whether it is better to spend an extra year and a half on fundraising, “under the radar” marketing campaigns, and coalition building. If you try for 2010 and lose, the risk is that you will be too burned out – either from the personal effort needed or just financially – to try again in 2012, which might push a repeal back to 2014. The opposition will have an easier time fundraising if there is an initiative on the ballot – it is much harder to fundraise by pointing to a nebulous, hypothetical threat than a real one. Getting a “war chest” built up first would provide an advantage, as would using the additional time to push public opinion in the correct direction.
Try to think about it quantitatively: which approach minimizes the average time needed to get Proposition Eight repealed? For example, if the probability of winning is 10% in 2010, 40% in 2012 (suppressed due to burnout) and 100% in 2014, the mean time for the repeal is 2.99 years past 2010. If the probability of winning is 60% in 2012 (assuming no attempt in 2010) and 100% in 2014, then the mean time for a repeal is 2.8 years past 2010.
Obviously, we need good estimates, not mere examples of how do calculate it – the best strategy is highly dependent on what these probabilities are.
galefan2004
@duttybarb: Can’t handle the truth much? Get back in your kitchen. If you husband doesn’t beat you soon for being on the internet then you aren’t a good Christian woman. Didn’t your church ever teach you about the wrongs of the internet. Its the devil’s box. You shouldn’t be on it. Hell, you want to set religion back to the start because you don’t think its ever capable of change then you shouldn’t even be able to read. You are a woman, according to religion, you have no use for such things. You shouldn’t be able to speak Latin either and the Bible should only be in Latin.
What moronic bitches like you fail to realize is that religion has always changed for the masses and the masses have NEVER changed for religion. Religion is about making money by winning souls to Jesus so that these souls can then give over 10% of their income to the church. They can only do that by appealing to the masses, so religion will always follow the desires of the masses. The masses are getting much more like me and much less like you, so you are on the losing end of this ebb and flow. No wonder you need to come here to take out your frustrations. If I was a miserable lonely bitch with no man I’d go attack the people that religion is starting to cater at the expense of catering towards me also.
galefan2004
@youcanthandlethetruth: I never said that they would change their minds about gay marriage. I said they will change their minds about accepting homosexuality. The two are different.
If it was possible for my religious friends to change my mind about religion then it would have been done by now. I’m not against it, but I fail to see the need to follow a great sky daddy that sacrificed himself to himself. I think to much and ask to many logical questions to ever be religious.
That doesn’t mean I attack religious people though. You must have my hatred for those that are religious confused with my hatred of those that think its acceptable to force their religion on others. I have no problems at all with religious people until they start that forcing. I don’t bother you, but yet you feel the need to bother me. That is a problem.
Mark Snyder
@schlukitz: It’s not about sitting around waiting, it’s about using the next few years to build strong coalitions for change that can last through the next marriage battle. And frankly, it’s about letting some of the older voters who statisticly voted against us to die off and let the new voters begin to vote for us. Basic math. The fact is most people have their minds made up so we have to persuade about 3% of the population by 2010. That’s about 1000 minds changed per day.
getreal
@duttybarb: I am part of the black community as are many straight ally gay rights activists that number includes ministers, politicians, the chairman of the board of the NAACP Julian Bond, and people from all walks of life. It is mystifying to me me how a black person could possible not only minimize the civil rights struggle of another group of Americans but not feel it is their duty to help said group attain their equality. Stop acting like you speak for the black community, you don’t. I was raised with the ideals of the civil rights movement of the 1960’s so I am ashamed of other black people like you who spout bigotry to gay people simply fighting for the same equality our people fought for. Shame on you!
getreal
The chairman of the board of the NAACP civil rights legend Julian Bond explaining why gay rights are civil rights and why every black person should be the last people to oppose gay rights. Watch and learn. Wake up sister you are wrong and will look back at your actions with shame if you don’t change your prejudiced ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq1MN1FYa4M
JA
@youcanthandlethetruth: The evidence suggests demographics trends are indeed in our favor. Only a matter of time. Sorry.
gaywad
Ignore ychtt, bigots like him(her?) can’t be reasoned with.
SoReal
Here is the thing, Youcanthandlethetruth and Duttybarb gay bash the community. They opperate in the darkened corners of the online/virtual world, and they follow you knowing full well that you are gay, and they bash you….they bash you over, and over, and over again. DuttyBarb consistently refers to you as “perverse,” yet the good moderators of Queerty do nothing. Why? Are you not bashed enough in this world? Are you not reminded enough by society that there are a number of folks who see you as perverts?
A friend of mine took an approach through humor to just laugh at the two; then he relented and tried to apologize on behalf of the HATRED that the two rain down upon you everyday. While DuttyBarb and Youcanthandlethetruth are allowed to go over their hate, their disrespect, their utter lack of regard to you over and over and over again, he is not subjected to being “reviewed and cleared” by Queerty.
Are you not tired of being bashed? Queerty has laid down certain rules to follow when posting, which are rather loose….they encourage you not to be jerks, for instance. Are you not fed up yet of defending yourself from the abuse you get from these two individuals that you can get just simply from visiting Narth’s website? Do you really believe that Queerty should be a site where free speech leads to nothing less than a firm bashing…from being told you are not enough, that you will never get anywhere in your fight for equal rights. If you cannot stand up for your rights and demand a safe place to exchange ideas here, well, were can you stand up for a safe place to exchange ideas?
Enough! We all know what Youcanthandlethetruth and DuttyBarb are going to say, time and time and time and time again….you are all perverts, beneath contempt, beneath protection, beneath equality.
Stand up now, and demand that the moderators remove their gay bashing commentary from your website!!! Don’t think that your similar remarks wouldn’t be vetted by a religious website? MOVE….do something here and now……
This is bulls83t!
Sampson
@SoReal: Agreed! It isn’t enough that they spew hate towards gays, but now they go after Episcopalians, calling them “sweet sinners,” #35. So now those who speak about religious intollerance are religiously intollerant. Hey, look, I got beat up regularly at school, until I hit my growing spurt and came back my Junior year in H.S. at 6’4″, and had the “nice” and “patient” beaten outta me. On the street, these cowards wouldn’t dare approach me, but they come on here and just bash away….and it seems to be tollerated.
I can’t imagine that someone would go onto Keith Boyken’s site and use the word “nigger” nearly as often as I’ve seen the word “perverse” and the word “pervert” used here, and seen them post more than once. Pervert is every bit as harmful as “faggot,” but may most here don’t see that. Imagine that you’re 14 and you find yourself here, and you read the words of DuttyBarb and Youcanthandlethetruth…you’re confused and alone, and you get that pushed into your face everyday.
Disgusting!
Pop Snap
IGNORE DUTTY AND YOUCANTHANDLE.
Please, they have nothing better to do than spin webs of confusing arguments that turn us into the bigots and intolerant ones somehow in the end.
Also, I just have to ask you this, why are you fighting for a losing cause? Yes, I know many americans voted for marriage initiatives, but that was years ago. 48% of people voted AGAINST Prop 8. 20% of people voted against Prop 22 which did the same thing prop 8 did. You are LOOOOSSSSSINNNGGG, you have been. Look at the polls, it shows a steady progression of opinion towards gay rights, and thats because of the sheer amount of people who come out. AIDS in the 80’s wiped many of us out, which explains the lull of gays in the 90’s, but more young people are growing up and speaking out and taking you down.
Go ahead. Look on facebook at the amount of people in groups that support gay rights. Then look for anti-gay rights groups. Look on Myspace, twitter, anywhere else and you’ll see that younger people understand you people stand for opression and hatred, the same brand that was against women and blacks and the same brand that will LOOSE.
You can’t beat us simply because we now have developed a safety net, we have friends and family that support and love us, we have about 12 million GLBT people, 1 in 10, in the US out & proud right as we speak.
Let me say it one more time for measure:
YOU. HAVE. LOST.
Kerry
The elephant in the room is the the child. As long as the Religious Right can play the child card, it isn’t going to happen.
What can be done to defuse this issue such that the majority believes that gay is okay with children?
B.
Kerry wrote, “The elephant in the room is the the child. As long as the Religious Right can play the child card, it isn’t going to happen. What can be done to defuse this issue such that the majority believes that gay is okay with children?”
Show ads with young children of gay couples talking to their friends. Something like, “Why aren’t your parents married?” A kid cries and says, “People won’t let them get married.”
The idea is to get the point across that Proposition Eight hurts children.
Jordan
Its funny how all these people against gay marriage are on this “gay site”
lol makes you think
closeted maybe?
why do you have to come on a gay site and belittle people.
“dos thou protest too much?” Makes you all look gay.
rudy
2012? Why don’t you just hand Rick Santorum the presidency?
Hasn’t anybody in California ever heard of an off year?
In the meantime, why not put some effort into FIXING whatever problems you’ve got with Civil Unions?
Robert, NYC
@galefan2004:
Civil unions are all well and good for those who want them, but…what about portability once you leave the U.S? What about the American gay couple who takes a job or has to take a job in say…western Europe with his or her partner? Will they be recognized in Holland, Belgium, Spain, Norway, or Sweden where same sex marriage is the law of the land and civil unions have been abolished? Semantics is one thing, but in reality, civil unions are not exactly going to become the standard for gay couples across the globe, no matter how appealing and preferred they are by some LGBT people. We’re already seeing that decline with seven countries now offering full marriage, a trend that is growing, albeit slowly. If civil unions are so equal, why can’t straights have the option not to marry but entering into just such a union instead? Civil unions at the federal level wouldn’t necessarily mean that they provide all of the rights of marriage either, maybe most of them, but not all.