Leave it to hateful religious types to throw around the word “Armageddon” with such aplomb. After the Washington D.C. City Council approved recognition of out-of-state same-sex marriages in the district earlier this month (with the support of Mayor Adrian Fenty), anti-gay marriage demonstrators were supposed to show up in front of the Council’s building to protest. But it didn’t happen. Not to fret, assured Bishop Harry Jackson of Hope Christian Church in Ohio: It’s coming. And it did, supposedly, today at 10am! Jackson said 100 pastors and 1,000 church members will show to argue the unanimous support for the measure is anti-D.C. And, uh, anti-black? Reports Marc Fisher:
“There’s a sense that the latte-drinking crowd is doing an end run around the regular people,” Jackson told me. “It’s a race and a class struggle on this. If 51 percent of the people in D.C. are African American and you have a unanimous vote by the city council on this, somebody’s not listening to the people.”
Jackson says that although his church is located in Maryland, he lives in the District and expects a large portion of those at the rally to be D.C. residents. But he says he’s not the least bit reluctant to recruit out-of-town supporters to put pressure on the city’s politicians.
And who’s the blame? (You know who.)
Jackson says it’s the media’s fault that the anti-gay marriage message is seen in some quarters as antithetical to civil rights. “The black ministers are irate that they are being shut out,” he says. “They feel like nobody’s listening to them.” Washingtonpost.com ran a commentary by Jackson on the marriage issue last week. But council members are mostly dismissive of the ministers who are organizing the rally, saying that most of the members the pastors represent live in Maryland, not the District.
So who is this Jackson guy anyway?
Jackson is a fiery preacher with strong ties to white evangelical organizations. A frequent speaker on behalf of conservative social causes, Jackson says D.C. Council members who think that both whites and blacks see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue are wrong. The real division, the minister says, is between those who take their faith seriously and those who are deeply misguided.
“The divide has to do with the intensity of one’s faith commitment,” he says. “Those who are less informed scripturally are floating down the same direction as many in the culture.”
Well, good luck to you, Mr. Jackson. We hope your protest went off swimmingly. But having established that steps toward full equality is the direction we should be heading, the D.C. Council has better things to do than listen to your Bible thumping.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
7SnowyNights
There’s nothing more archaic-looking than a big strong priest in full garb swinging the Bible around in the air.
Shark
“Fundamentalists use the Bible the same way a drunk uses a lamppost – always for support, but never for illumination”
Simply reading a book doesn’t mean you can grasp it’s intricacies, Bishop Jackson.
LoRdOrEo
OMG, first of all i am a christian, and yes i am gay, why do a lot of religions insist on doing all this crap, pushing their own personal beliefs instead of what christianity is all about, which is supposedly love, being gay isnt wrong, these people need to get over it
paulied
“It’s a race and a class struggle on this. If 51 percent of the people in D.C. are African American and you have a unanimous vote by the city council on this, somebody’s not listening to the people.”
And just what, Bishop Jackson, if they were “listening to the people” in the 60’s when your civil rights were being decided on. Fuck off, you douchebag charlatan!
getreal
@Shark: Exactly. The bible does not support homophobia period. It does support slavery and incest though. If taken out of context almost any evil included the persecution and denial of rights of any group of people can be rationalized. Scriptural scholars will tell you there are no admonitions our definition of modern homosexuality (two adults in a consensual relationship) in the bible they are are against temple prostitutes. These preachers know that biblically they have a tenuous excuse for their own cultural feelings of discomfort with homosexuality but they take advantage of the fact that few people actually read the bible cover to cover. They reads the same psalms over and over again and allow their pastor to tell them what the rest says.
kevin (not that one)
Let’s not forget that Christianity is also a business and Pastor is a paid position. Take the money out of the equation and how many of these “fiery preachers” would move on.
I guess it could also be said that if LGBT-inclusion could build bigger congregations and lead to more donations, many anti-gay ministers would change their tune.
kevin (not that one)
I am, like, the typo queen today…
Sorry.
Cam
This guy keeps saying it isn’t a black issue. Really? Well people could say that the civil rights issue wasn’t a white issue, but guess what…whites voted for it and white judges rulled on it. It’s a shame that this one minister takes such a dim view of the hearts and minds of the people of DC, especially seeing as how his church is in the state of Maryland, perhaps he should worry more about whats going on there than to try to stir up racial issues where there are none.
queer atheist
To those “queer apologists” for the Bible – try actually reading it, rather than making it conform to your 21st Century, Liberal agenda! The Bible is INHERENTLY homophobic, sexist, and racist. There is no way to deny that, except for willful ignorance. If your children were playing with a loaded weapon, you would get rid of it – that is exactly what we need to do with religion. Get rid of it! If there was no heaven, no one would be sending us to hell! Bishop Harry Jackson is right in opposing gay rights, as the Bible clearly does not like the mixing of categories (that is what Levitical law is really about), and considers male-male sexual contact to go against the created order (In the Beginning… he created them male and female). This is one case where the baby and bath water should both be tossed… the Bible is irredeemably wrong. There is no way that people like Jackson could even try to argue against gay rights without it.
(excuse the rant – I am just sick and tired from hearing WAY to much of this mamby-pamby bull$hit about ‘The Bible teaches love…” and “Jesus never mentioned it”. Get rid of it!)
Zack
Can’t we all just agree the idea of God is a hoax, and that using
“Him” to justify hatred is the antithesis of what “He” would want if “He” were real? Rather than believing in some big Daddy in the sky, why can’t be all just treat one another as decent human beings?
Dennis
@Zack:
Respectfully, I (and millions of other spiritual people of many different paths on the planet) no longer think of God as He, Him, or anything like the “old man in the sky”… There are as many ways to understand God (or Spirit) as there are people…and one way to see God IS as “treating one another as decent human beings” (Do onto others etc…)
The sad, oh so tiresome truth is that far too many people still cling to “Religion 1.0”, old paradigm ideas, and some notion that they, and only they, have the correct understanding about God. Infidels, non-believers, and the unsaved will and must be punished! (Herd mentality, lack of intellectual curiosity, spiritual narcissism, or outright insanity, in my view) Ugh!
I personally believe that whatever God is can in no way be fully known in this life, that God is in large part, a mystery, and that respecting other’s beliefs (as long as they ‘do no harm to others’) is integral to any claim of authentic spirituality.
Guess I just wanted to point out that there is a difference between having spiritual beliefs and being afriad of some tyrant in the sky…Peace.
TANK
Yeah, they should update to religion 2.0: same unfounded crackpot beliefs, different number!
Oh, those sad neanderthals who refer to the deity as HE, even though technically, they may not ascribe a gender…so sexist, isn’t it? Instead, they should be thinking about chi force or elan vital or whateverthefuck newagey religious shit is fashionable nowadays…
Yes, and the difference between being spiritual and being religious isn’t rationality, but whether or not you believe that there’s an intentional consciousness that created the universe (or group of them) or not. If not, yet you maintain…wacko unfalsifiable/unverifiable irrational beliefs in say “magic” or whatever, you can be spritual.
getreal
@queer atheist: You are full of it. I don’t think anyone here is apologizing for the bible. I didn’t write it so why the hell would i apologize for it. I only pointed out the fact that it is not against homosexuality or inherently homophobic it has been used to rationalize homophobia. If you are going to pontificate on the bible at least read it and know what you are talking about. Why are atheists so desperate to indoctrinate people anyway they are the new Jehovah’s Witnesses. I don’t think it matters what people believe as long as they treat others with respect. I do however find it strange when people have such tenuous beliefs that they need to reassure themselves by trying to convince others that their religious or lack of religious beliefs is the “right” way to think. If you are right why do you need to “convert” people.
Dennis
@TANK:
and yet Tank, you don’t have all the answers either (just a lot of apparent anger/venom about the issue) so you’re free to worship your own opinion as God, or believe we are all random beings in a meaningless Universe. If that works for you, makes you happy, creates joy in your life, so be it.
Whatever gets you through the day, dude!
TANK
Atheists are into converting people, though…that’s what religions do with missionary work and whatnot. we’re just tired of being discriminated against…and oh yes, we are discriminated against. THERE WILL BE AN OUT BLACK GAY MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE BEFORE THERE IS AN ATHEIST.
Thing is with bible interpretations, everyone’s got there own, and can back it up with scriptural “evidence”…
TANK
@TANK:
AREN’T INTO CONVERTING PEOPLE. I think, however, that if dogmatism were to go away, security risks would diminish…can’t have religious extremists who think that this life is worthless compared to the hereafter with access to…nukes.
TANK
@Dennis:
But you do have all of the answers. See, instead of being PETRIFIED of not having an explanation for everything, I am comfortable admitting that physics has not yet bridged the divide separating quantum phenomena from macro level behavior. I don’t mind not knowing…and attempting to find out…I don’t need to generate my own crazy little explanation to make everything right with the world….though, it isn’t “the world” at all.
getreal
@TANK: I have no doubt there have been atheists in the White House unfortunately in our political system you have to say you believe in God to get elected which I completely disagree with. People should be able to believe what ever they want.
TANK
@getreal:
Out atheists. There have been none of those. Why is it that there’s a positive correlation that obtains between higher IQ’s and likelihood of atheism? A group’s favored interpretation of the bible explains their beliefs about it, and they use scripture to narratives to justify just as much as anyone else who appeals to the same book… But perhaps there’s such as thing as the most likely interpretation of the bible, and given how many christians are antigay bigots and cite the bible as their justification, don’t you think that would indicate a more likely interpretation of leviticus?
Not ruling out stupid atheists, for those exist, too…it’s just per capita, not nearly as much as stupid believers.
Dennis
@TANK:
What part of “God is a mystery” in my post was not in english? I do not have all the answers, I have (some of) MY answers, and I continue to ask questions, have life experiences, and learn as I am able.
I am not petrified of science continuing to expand of our understandings of how the Universe works either… “You don’t know me, bitch!” (ha!)
Seriously, I’m not interested in tangling with you on this issue, I’ll show you some respect, expecting some level of respect in return.
TANK
@Dennis:
“god is a mystery” in claiming that you don’t have “all of the answers” is a cheap rhetorical trick that any nube snakeoil salesman vending religion knows. That god exists isn’t a mystery, and you can always appeal to ignorance in suggesting that things are as they are because of god, though we may not know god’s reasons for whatever. Lame. “I don’t have all of the answers, just the only answer I need to have all of the answers…”
getreal
I think we are moving toward a time when atheists will feel comfortable being out in whatever strata of society they are in. I am all for religious freedom what I don’t like are fundamentalists who try to push their beliefs on others. Christian fundamentalists try to convince people they will got to hell if they believe what they tell them too and atheists tell people if you don’t agree with me you are stupid. Neither way of thinking seem progressive or inclusive. Why not just treat others with respect and believe what you believe and respect other people’s right to believe what they want?
TANK
It trades on some kind of “it’s an unsolvable riddle/mystery” (and by it, it’s either the “nature”–meaningless gibberish–of the universe or “nature” of god), yet here’s why and how it operates….
kevin (not that one)
Speaking of intelligence:
“I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth.” – Albert Einstein
queer atheist
Long post, have to move on…
@GETREAL: I have read (cover to cover a couple of times) when I was getting my Theology degree. I have seen first hand the destructive power of religion in my own life, and the lives of people around me. Through the course of my study, I became convinced that the Christian religion is predicated on historical fabrications and faulty reasoning, not to mention a serious denial of Modern scientific “reality”. I’m not proselytizing, but trying to minimize the reach of religion as it affects my own life by speaking out against toxic elements around me. And yes GETREAL, it does matter what people believe, as those beliefs dictate the types of policies and legislation they support!
@DENNIS: The very fact that you so disdainfully eschew the patriarchal “MALE” deity proves that you have already capitulated to that “21st Century, Liberal agenda” I mentioned (@TANK: Religion 2.0! LOL!). For thousands of years before the present, the majority of people around the world worshiped a hierarchy of gods, with the high god invariably being MALE. They also believed that the world was a flat disc (except for the Greek mathematicians). The monotheistic religions (Judaism and Islam, and okay, Christianity’s TRIUNE Godhead) have all worshiped god as MALE. To say that this is passe is to say that the tradition you purport to belong to is wrong on a fundamental tenant. Just admit that you have revised the tradition because it doesn’t fit with your sensibilities (there is nothing wrong with that, but you have to recognize it).
BTY, the word “apologist” means to provide rational arguments in favour of your beliefs (e.g., the Early Church Fathers wrote apologetic defenses of the Christian faith against Pagan and Jewish opponents).
TANK
@getreal:
Well, when the president of the united states opines (bush sr.) that an atheist’s u.s. citizenship should be revoked because of said atheism…and uintelligent design IS, in fact, being taught as an alternative to evolution in some classrooms in some backward states as a direct result of the creationist lobby….moving forward is going to be more problematic than lip service can describe.
getreal
People who watch Fox news statistically are less knowledgeable but that doesn’t mean they should not be allowed to watch what they want and think what they want. The only problem i have with religious fundamentalists and atheists is they seem to be “mind police” who feel they have to control what people think. I don’t trust anyone is so invested in what I believe it makes me wonder what is missing in this persons life that they need to convert me?
TANK
@kevin (not that one):
Trying to reinterpret history to prove that einstein is a believer is similar to trying to do the same with Spinoza. It’s a favored tactic of the believer. Einstein’s “god” was Spinoza’s “god”, and Baruch was an atheist through and through.
professor Steven Nadler on einstein’s god
getreal
@TANK: That man was a moron bad example. There were people who felt blacks should not have citizenship because of their skin color what does that example really prove.
@queer atheist: You are generalizing. I am one person i have no more responsibility for past abuses in the church than you do. And statistics don’t hold up to your thesis. For example statistically speaking more 50% of Catholics are pro-choice,believe in evolution, and gay rights. Maybe you should spend more time trying to improve things and less time trying to indoctrinate others to your way of thinking. It’s desperate.It is like having a southern baptist on the site.
getreal
To me people who try to blame modern people for historical abuses are just being hysterical and argumentative.Is it fair to blame a white person in 2009 for slavery ? Then why blame modern Christians for things that have nothing to with them. It is childish. In my experience most atheist fundamentalist (as opposed to normal atheists) have a past where they were PERSONALLY bothered by people of faith so they have built a whole ideology built on hatred of people from their past which they take on every person of faith they encounter.Why not think what you want try to live a good life and respect other people’s differences?
Dennis
@TANK:
Science does not have all the answers either…our previously understood scientific “answers” on many things are constanly being disproved or re-understood in new ways. There are NO permanent answers, only our “best current understandings” of things. So it is with the nature of God, spirit, and the workings of the Universe.
Saying I believe in “snake-oil solutions”, when you have NO knowledge of my life’s path, my studies, or my experiences…is like me saying you are an obstinate, arrogant asshole who cannot be reasoned with. See, and I don’t even know you, how could I possibly assume such a thing? My bad, I guess I shouldn’t assume.
My last post on this thread (for now), peace to y’all, keep searching for your own answers, in science, or spirit, or some combination of the two.
TANK
That’s it.
Science does not have all the answers either…
Never made such a claim. Claimed the opposite. However, it does have a better way of getting them than religious speculations.
our previously understood scientific “answers” on many things are constanly being disproved or re-understood in new ways.
And this is good. It proves the underlying commitment to rationality (apportioning belief and commitment to the evidence, or likeliest interpretation of the evidence). This is another pathetic antirealist argument, though. So what if it’s changing? It’s building upon the discoveries of the past–that much is fact–absorbing methodologies and findings into new theories with vastly different meanings. It’s progressing toward a destination.
There are NO permanent answers,
In religion there are. That’s why it’s dogmatism…there’s no rationality to it at all; no way to revise or rationally revise theories or jettison them for new hypotheses. How about that god exists? That seems permanent enough for someone like you… I don’t know what you mean about permanent answers, either…this is just vague religio spiritual prose… No answer that will be true right now and for all eternity? Sure there are…mathematical and logical truths. Empirical truths? Of course…h2o is water is true now, and will be true forever. That’s pretty permanent.
only our “best current understandings” of things. So it is with the nature of God, spirit, and the workings of the Universe.
Don’t belittle our best current understandings of things…they’re our best, and don’t rule out permanent answers.
Saying I believe in “snake-oil solutions”, when you have NO knowledge of my life’s path, my studies, or my experiences…is like me saying you are an obstinate, arrogant asshole who cannot be reasoned with.
No, it’s not like that at all. It’s like me saying you believe in irrational hokum.
See, and I don’t even know you, how could I possibly assume such a thing? My bad, I guess I shouldn’t assume.
Well, when you say you believe in god and god can’t be known (except that) or god’s a mystery…woowoo realm stuff that you’ve no good reason to believe in (i’m sure a host of subjectivist drivel can be brought up)…well, that’s saying something about yourself.
getreal
@queer atheist:T say that Christians vote a certain way because of religion is not only unrealistic it is inaccurate It is a very retrogade way of thinking And for the record I am a christian and i’m a gay rights activist. People are not revising tradition they are starting to use the word in the way it was intended. “Love thy brother as theyself” is neither conservative nor homophobic. There are a lot of people who feel that marriage equality and all justice issues are completely in line with the teaching of the bible not clergy. I would open up your mind a little. It is asinine to think that hundreds of millions of people have identical political beliefs and are somehow identical in sensibility because they all believe in God.
mademark
Read Christopher Hitchens’s ‘God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.’ It’s all make-believe, with terrible consequences for the planet and the species. It doesn’t matter what the bible says about anything (or the Koran or the Torah). We’re not living in the desert anymore, shaking at the sight of an eclipse. Time to rip the veil off all this nonsense and evolve, or perish (I suspect the latter).
queer atheist
Looks like I touched a nerve…
I am trying to get on with my life, but religious gays force me to relive my trauma. They try to say that being gay and Christian is “okay”, but they just don’t get the scope of the problem they are toying with. If you claim to be happily gay and religious, I would guess that you haven’t engaged the contradictions of your religious tradition. Likewise, if you claim to be Christian and believe in Evolution, you really haven’t accept the weight of Natural Selection. Darwin destroyed William Paley, and with him, the Ontological argument (aka Argument from Design, or THE single most convincing argument for the existence of god).
As for the charge of being a “mind police” officer, do I get to wear a tight uniform and carry a night stick!? I really like sunglasses too…
getreal
@queer atheist: Maybe you need to let go of your very narrow view of religion. Statistically speaking most Christians in America do believe in evolution. It is a fact and 40% (and growing)think people are born gay. Your idea of Christianity seems to be from 1880 which is your right. You don’t get to dictate what hundreds of people believe or what believing in God means for everyone in the world as much as you want to. For someone who claims to be an atheist you sure do have a pretty big God-complex.I never reference my sexual orientation at all though you keep presumptuously referencing it. The only nerve you struck is my funny bone.I think it is funny that seem so wrapped up in who other people do or do not worship. Maybe if you had a more meaningful life you would concentrate on yourself and less on others.
queer atheist
Yes, the bible does say to love your neighbor, but Modern slave owners used it to justify their practice. The bible provides rules on owning slaves, and discriminates based on race and sex (Leviticus 25:44-46; Exodus 21:2-6; Exodus 21:7-11; Exodus 21:20-21). People arguing against slavery in the 19th century believed that it was wrong, and used the bible (or, common idiom given the atmosphere of the time) to argue against it. Paul told slaves to go back to their masters (Book of Philemon), and the author of 1 Timothy 6:1-2 gave rules on a slave’s conduct (also Ephesians 6:5). The bible assumes the “naturalness” of slavery.
The point is that people pick and choose what portions of the bible they accept to believe (thanks Jack Black!). However, given our context, that is, the 21st Century, the majority of the bible is simply unacceptable to modern sensibilities. So, people “spiritualize” what it says, and focus on made up existential and timeless “Truths” that they see. But, they forget that it was written by a band of people most similar to the Taliban of today. This isn’t to say that those liberal, airy-fairy things aren’t in there, but that the overwhelming majority of the bible is repugnant when judged by our moral standards that were created during the Enlightenment (i.e., the concept of “equality” doesn’t exist in religion; we choose to see this reflected in words and sentence we can’t possibly understand because they were written so long ago).
getreal
@queer atheist: Thanks for the history lesson particularly since you are using information I referenced on this site early today.My question which you can’t answer is what is missing on your life that it is soooo important to you what other people believe and that you feel the need to convert people like some kind of missionary.If you are so secure in your beliefs why do you need to preach your gospel? It is quite ironic you preach on the bible as much as a christian fundamentalist lol.
kevin (not that one)
@queer atheist: I don’t doubt that there are many people who have read the bible cover to cover several times and still can only comprehend it in literalist terms, which both the fundamentalists and the atheists seem to favor. However, as you should know, the vast majority of the bible wasn’t written from a literalist viewpoint. Nor is it inherently sexist, racist, or homophobic. There are many literal examples in it, some of the few times it is literal, that dispute you theory (Miriam as the first female prophet spoken of, the love between David and Jonathan, Mary Magdelene as one of Jesus’s disciples, etc.)
And yet, is the bible the beginning and end of the Christian or Jewish faith? Actually, no. It is but one element, one sacrament that we use to commune with God. Both the Jewish and Christian faith are living traditions, constantly changing – constantly struggling to understand God’s mysteries and to trust in him (or her, or however one understands this force we call by many names).
I wish that we could be so certain about the universe to say that there is or is not a God, but I don’t believe we have the capacity in the forms we are in to truly know for sure. Just like my cats can’t comprehend their place in the order of things by looking into a mirror, neither can we by simply seeing what’s obvious to us but may have a meaning that is far greater than we can comprehend.
Personally, I believe in God because I have felt God’s presence in my life. I question often when a coincidence is merely a mathmatical outcome or if perhaps something else is at work – something that could very well be that which we think of as God. However, because that’s not a fact-based observation, it doesn’t negate the conclusion that it’s likely true. Perception is reality for a great many people and what’s true in your life doesn’t make it necessarily false because someone else has another point of view.
My perception about God is similar to Jesus’s, which is what defines many of us as Christian – in that we seek to understand and know God through the prism that was Christ’s life and teachings. There’s nothing sinister in that, especially if you (and you especially) have studied the synoptic gospels and the beliefs of the early church.
queer atheist
Took GETREAL’s advice – I’m in search of a meaningful life! Hopefully I’ll find James Stewart and Donna Reed along the way…!
getreal
@queer atheist: Oh and I guess you do get your views from 1880 since the “modern” slave owners you speak of lived over a hundred years ago. It explains your antiquated way of thinking. Religion has been used to rationalize slavery,racism,anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia, etc. etc. but so has patriotism by misguided sometimes evil people. Life and people are simply more complex than your coffee shop generalizations about religion and religious people.
getreal
@queer atheist: Good luck to you!
Cam
Atheists are starting to remind me of the angry bi-sexuals. They always seem to have a major chip on their shoulder. this article was about a Pastor and the DC council…but hey, it’s an opportunity to tell everybody who doesn’t think like me how stupid they are YAY! Ugh, save me from yawning myself to death, there, now you can write a post claiming I am a member of the flat earth society.
TANK
Oy, convert people like a missionary? In case you hadn’t noticed, atheists are maligned on a daily basis in this country. It is slanderous to accuse a political opponnent of atheism… Meanwhile, christians in this country (over 80% of it is christian) try to convert people to their cause with millions upon millions of dollars spent on propaganda and proselytizing, and missionary work around the world. Atheists are demonized by christians who don’t know what it means…and insist on a scriptural debate…
In case you hadn’t noticed, christianity is, worldwide, a toxic faith. It causes otherwise good people to do horrible things (like the pope telling people in third world countries not to use condoms when aids is rampant and population control is sorely needed). Bombing of abortion clinics is another example. And let’s not forget the abrahamic counterpart Islam and all of the good things that toxic faith is up to….
getreal
@kevin (not that one): Beautifully put.
kevin (not that one)
@queer atheist: “Paul told slaves to go back to their masters”
Paul also told those who were unmarried not to marry and those who were downtrodden not to change anything about their lives. But you’ve read the bible…you should know that Paul didn’t justify these things. That’s pretty ingenuous of you to assume such in a public forum.
You know that Paul said these things (always by prefacing that it was “his”, not “the Lord’s” opinion) because Paul was certain that the Kingdom of God was at hand. He earnestly believed that the early Christians of his day should waste no time on things of the physical world and prepare themselves for the coming of the Lord. Paul’s heart was in the right place, though unfortunately he was hopelessly apocalyptic. Again, that doesn’t present evidence that Paul was pro-slavery or anti-marriage.
TANK
Atheists don’t convert…rationality converts. Atheism isn’t a religion; it’s not a philosophical system; it’s not a belief about the world, even. A precocious child who sat down and seriously thought about the miracles of the bible could (and many have) come to the conclusion that it’s a fraud….
As for religion providing “meaning” to people’s lives, I don’t doubt it. I’m sure people have profoundly spiritual moments. That does not speak to the truth value of their religious beliefs, however, nor the necessityo f them having those beliefs to be, say, good people or have fulfilling lives. Many atheists have…wonderful lives. They value life even more than many christians, I’d reason, because they know it ends…at death…that this life is the only one you have.
TANK
However, as you should know, the vast majority of the bible wasn’t written from a literalist viewpoint. Nor is it inherently sexist, racist, or homophobic.
Just another interpretation as valid as any other.
getreal
@TANK: You are using the most extreme bad examples of Christianity not the many normal good people living good lives who happen to believe in God. Do you think I’m bombing abortion clinic ( I defended them as a clinic protector in my teens) or told the Pope to give African people irresponsible safe sex advice. I am all for freedom of thought but it seems like a lot of atheists have a childlike need to blame a large diverse group of people for the sins (no pun) of an extreme few. It makes about as much sense as blaming all white people for the sins of Jeffrey Dahmer just because he is also a white person. Christians individulas are not to blame for the sins of every Christian who ever exists it is beyond ridiculous.
getreal
@TANK
“Atheists don’t convert…rationality converts”
Then why are you trying so hard on this thread to convert people to atheism notice I have no agenda to change your religion or lack of religion. Do you notice I have not once insult your beliefs just your need to change others beliefs.
TANK
@getreal:
A gay friendly, gay rights supporting christian is a minority of self identified christians in this country and worldwide. It’s not uncommon for christians to be homophobes nor sexist, and it’s not uncommon for them to back it up with their faith. It is very much a problem. As I have said elsewhere, those who identify as christian and disagree with their ideological fellow travelers (christians one and all), both appeal to the same book to justify their disagreements. This vindicates the book itself as an authority from which the bigots can justify their beliefs…they’re getting help from the christians who disagree with them WHILE they’re disagreeing…relegating a serious ethical debate to a mere scriptural interpretation…
TANK
@getreal:
Why are you trying this hard? I’m not trying at all…I’m countering some bad reasoning.
TANK
Some beliefs need to be insulted…
kevin (not that one)
Atheism is a belief system that certainly is faith-based. To me, it has all of the hallmarks of organized religion: evangelists, true believers, a claim to hold the “sole truth”, and an inherant self-righteous intolerance of people who hold contrary views. What it doesn’t have is an inherent philosophical drive towards cooperation, love, and accepting a mystery at face value. Of course, I’m generalizing…I cannot say that all atheists are this way, only the most vocal. And like all religious fundamentalists, they seem to suck the life and color out of any conversation with thier insistence on absolutisms.
Dan
@queer atheist: I think it’s important to respect all worldviews, including atheism, but in my view, prejudice on the basis of religion is no better than homophobia, racism, or any other form of prejudice.
The mixing of categories that you refer to in Leviticus is a characteristic of ritually impure or unclean activity (Hebrew toevah). You seem familiar with the concept, so it’s puzzling that you apparently don’t realize that the prohibitions against it were directed specifically and temporarily to the Hebrews while they were traveling to Canaan and had to avoid certain ritually unclean practices of the Canaanites. It’s true that a specific homosexual act – not all of them, in the view of most scholars – was considered unclean, but the significance of this was no more enduring than that of any other unclean act.
Jesus himself said that the only uncleanness that defiled a person was impurity of the heart, and although a host of unsavory acts proceeded from the heart, homosexuality wasn’t one of them (e.g., Matthew 15:17-20). Similarly, Paul said, “I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in itself, but to him for whom it is unclean, to him it is unclean” (Romans 14:14).
You allude to the creation account (“male and female he created them”), but for most biblical scholars, this isn’t a moral about homosexuality but an explanation of the origins of marriage. Anyone can read it and see at a glance that it makes no mention of homosexuality.
Much of this information comes through L. William Countryman’s book “Dirt, Greed, and Sex: Sexual Ethics in the New Testament.” Countryman does the opposite of making the Bible conform to a modern agenda. He first discusses the principles that the Bible is addressing and then examines the scriptures to determine what they say about those principals. Only then does he seek to apply the scriptures to modern questions. For my part, I’ve read the Bible from cover to cover many times, partly in the Greek and Hebrew.
I don’t think it’s in our interest to try to revive the dying notion that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Honestly, I think it does more harm than good to perpetuate intolerance against any group – including indirectly, by dismissing the value of what defines the group, be it the Bible for most Christians or homosexuality and transgender identification for LGBT people.
I mentioned in another post that 58% of 18 to 29 year old evangelicals support either civil unions or same-sex marriage, according to a recent Pew center poll. I don’t think it serves us to push that support away. Again, I fully support your right to profess atheism, but I think that all demographic groups deserve tolerance as well.
Dabq
Too bad these chumps, churls and hatemonger’s can’t do anything to help the poor, kids who are dropping out of school or the elderly that are suffering in DC, nope, just the same old two bit ‘preaching’ of hate, and, a reason why every so called church should not have tax exempt status.
And since he is getting paid from the white evangelicals, I guess he will do thier bidding until they top funding his hate.
getreal
“A gay friendly, gay rights supporting christian is a minority”
As someone who works in gay rights I’m telling you that is not true It was 10 years ago it is not today. In california alone 1 in 5 gay rights grassroots organization are religion based.
“Why are you trying this hard?”
For the same reason i would dialogue with someone erroneously pontificating on how all black people think and act. If someone is maligning my identity I’m going to try to dialogue with them for better mutual understanding. Why are you so put out by someone addressing your posts aren’t other posters allowed to have an opinion? Or are we to believe that your opinion is the only rational one?
TANK
@TANK, GETREAL, DENNIS
Help me! I am lonely old sicko who’s only entertainment is arguing with myself using different nick-names. I gave myself away with post 16. Sure wish I had an imaginary superhero to talk with. Perhaps one that wears a loose comfortable gown and has long flowing hair. Yet is man enough to keep a beard. I can just visualize my imaginary friend now. So, so happy.
getreal
@Dabq: I am a Christian and I am not a chump but i agree with you any church that preaches politics should lose tax exempt status that would shut the bigots and homophobes up fast.
getreal
@TANK: Clearly that is not Tank just someone trying to disrupt things. Pathetic.
TANK
Atheism is a belief system that certainly is faith-based.
Then you don’t know what atheism is. What is the faith? Can’t prove it? Can prove it…has been proven. I think that one person suffering needlessly in the history of this planet proves that the christian god does not exist. I’m a strong atheist with respect to that (problem of evil simply devastates christian, judaic, and islamic faiths), and perhaps a negative atheist when it comes to vaguer theologies… In any event, I can’t believe them because rationality precludes it…don’t believe in a miracle unless its denial would require believing in a miracle that was even more miraculous. Good piece of advice crafted by a smart atheist.
To me, it has all of the hallmarks of organized religion: evangelists, true believers, a claim to hold the “sole truth”,
No atheist claims to hold the sole truth…LOL!
and an inherant self-righteous intolerance of people who hold contrary views.
That’s like that heterodefenseleague calling gays bigots who dare criticize their oppressors. When those views get in the way of people’s lives (as they do on a daily basis in this country), then it’s a problem…toxic faith is a problem in this country and worldwide… Other than that, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want…and no atheist does.
What it doesn’t have is an inherent philosophical drive
Those are inherent philosophical drives? What’s a philosophical drive?
towards cooperation, love, and accepting a mystery at face value.
Of course they do. That’s what…ya know…ethics are for (the good kind, not crazy bible unethical ethics…). Atheism is not an ethical theory…it’s not a belief about the world…not a philosophical system…it deals with a lack of belief in god…that’s it.
TANK
@TANK:
That’s it! You’re dead to me. I wash my hands of you.
TANK
@getreal:
I’m telling you that it is true, and that statistics of christian communities in this country prove it. It’s simply unresaonable to conclude that christians, as a whole, are gay friendly in the united states.
getreal
@TANK: I never ever said that.
getreal
But among gay rights activists there is a contingent of people of faith they are not a small minority. There are a lot of people on friday nights sitting on barstools complaining about how christians hate gays who do don’t do any activism so they have no idea who is actually doing the work in this movement. There are people from all communities working for change.
TANK
@getreal:
They’re a small minority of gay friendly people of faith.
TANK
In fact, some many christians interpret leviticus as condemning homosexuality that I’d say to be a good christian, you should be antigay…but to be a good person…you shouldn’t be a christian.
getreal
@TANK: In fact, some many christians interpret leviticus as condemning homosexuality that I’d say to be a good christian, you should be antigay.
Well for one I can tell you probably spend little if any time with religious people yet you are making pronouncements about them. There has been a steadily growing trend among people of faith in the this country to see sexual orientation more and more as an identity than a sin. That is why in a country with an estimated 80% christian base in most states people are about 50-50 on gay marriage the stats 20 years ago were 20% in favor. I’m glad you don’t run things because it seems to you to be a christian is to be a bad person. Obviously you need all christians to be small minded bigots then you feel justified in feeling prejudices against all of them for the sins of the few.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Jefferson WAS a deist, technically. He was, however vocally anti-Christian and pro atheist. So I would say you have had such a man in the white house.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
Your problem with crazy fundamentalism (of all types) is a more recent development, because the men who designed your constitution sure didn’t plan such a cozy relationship between church and state.
@queer atheist:
People’s beliefs dictate what sort of policy they support? Perhaps, but only if they are very immature. Any decent politician knows how to make a distinction between personal belief and the public good:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/07/30/samesex030730.html
TANK
@getreal:
Yeah, obviously I’m way off base to suggest that the vast majority of christians interpret leviticus in an antigay way, and themselves justify their homophobia with that interpretation. That’s crazy talk. There’s also a steady trend of secularism, too.
TANK
Jefferson WAS a deist, technically. He was, however vocally anti-Christian and pro atheist. So I would say you have had such a man in the white house.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
Jefferson can be argued to be an atheist, too. Many choice quotes of him eviscerating christianity exist.
Your problem with crazy fundamentalism (of all types) is a more recent development, because the men who designed your constitution sure didn’t plan such a cozy relationship between church and state.
The thing is, one can’t justify any unethical behavior on atheism alone…it’s logically impossible…not so with christianity. And it’s not a more recent development; great awakenings have plagued this country since its founding.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
And in a real country like the USA, strumpet, people’s faith does impact how they vote and who they vote for. Real country, though…with real people and real problems…not canada. Because canada sucks…
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Geez, tell that to the United Church of Canada, the Unitarians, or whole congregations and Diocese of the Anglican church who support gay inclusion and rights.
There is a major schism in the Anglican church over this issue. It is not a small minority.
getreal
@TANK: Yes there is a trend toward secularism and there is a trend toward secular people to try to push their own agenda on people of faith. I believe in individual rights. And as someone who does spend time with people of faith the trend is toward believing in gay rights with only those conservative politically being against it. Take a group of christian democrats maybe 10% of them are against gay rights. A room of republicans christians 85% against gay rights.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Geez, tell that to the baptists, evangelicals, catholics, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. REligions with members…and anglicans aren’t as gay friendly as official proclamation demands. A major schism determined not all by antigay pro gay, either.
And the united church of canada? What the jesus christ is that? LOL! Canada could be conquered with a bad mood.
getreal
@TANK: I am a Catholic and that statistics don’t support your outdated belief that all people who believe in God are homophobes it simply is not true and the trend among political liberal to moderate christians is an across the board trend toward gay rights not against. That is a fact. It is time to let go of the rhetoric that the most extreme christians represent all or most christians.
TANK
@getreal:
I didn’t say that all people who believe in god are homophobes. The vast majority of catholics in this country and worldwide are.
getreal
In my work in the gay rights movement it is always the atheists who are the most afraid to dialogue with people of faith (which is necessary in outreach and equality education). They rarely mix with them and their views of people of faith are based on the worst stereotypes of christians as opposed to the varied reality of people. When they do they say as you did well you are different you are in the minority. Just like when i was in France last year and a woman told me you a smart sophisticated most Americans are not like that most are right wing religious bigots. I told her I’m not a minority you are judging America on stereotypes there are many different perspectives and types of people in america. When I was on a plane with an Italian 2 years ago he told me you Americans love your Bush. He was surprised that not only did I not like Bush but I did not vote for him. My examples illustrate you can’t really speak on a vast population of people particularly if don’t even spend time with them if you do your insights will veer to the stereotypical.
TANK
Right, I shouldn’t call christianity a toxic faith because the vast majority of christians are homophobic and many sexist, too. And further, justify their repugnant behaviors with their religious faith. That’s just stereotyping…LOL!
getreal
“I didn’t say that all people who believe in god are homophobes. The vast majority of catholics in this country and worldwide are.”
Statistically speaking that is not true. Catholics don’t have any control over what this new Pope says and what he says does not dictate what is in our hearts or how we vote.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
If you use that qualifier “alone” then Christianity is off the hook as well. There are many people who live an ethical and moral life through Christianity.
Most of the great liberation movements (anti-slavery, labour, child welfare, poverty) came from Christian religious traditions. Canada’s “socialist” party was started by members of the clergy; not so our Tory party.
I agree with you that organized religion is the cause of most of the strife in this world, but much of that is due to the power being taken over. You can no more say that the evil is the cause of christianity “alone” than you can say Stalinist evil was the result of atheism alone.
And believe it or not, you have had a few politicians, even in the states who understood what it was to put one’s personal beliefs aside and do what is right.
Alec
I’m an atheist. I’m gay. Consequently, Leviticus & the offshoots of the Hebrew faith mean very, very little to me (despite some Jewish ancestry, I’m mostly a Euro).
I’m basically with Tank, here. You can argue the finer points of interpretation with the theocrats, but when it comes down to it the majority of denominations and, most likely, the majority of self-identified Christians, and even the majority of Americans, believe that homosexuality is prohibited by their chosen scripture. And really when you break it down, it goes something like this: Jews are more gay friendly than Christians who are more gay friendly than Muslims.
The argument that gay sex and orientation isn’t condemned by the Bible and the Koran has a limited use. It seems, primarily, to be oriented to making gays of those religious persuasions feel good about themselves, and making it easier on family members with gay relatives. Noble, I suppose; but the religious practices themselves are so immoral that it is difficult to argue, for example, that a Christian Evangelical’s embrace of his gay neighbor should be celebrated when they continue to boldly proclaim a superior status for their religous prejudice, a second class status for women, etc.
In the end, I believe this is a holding pattern. Secularism (and not necessarily atheism) will be triumphant in the end because, as the saying goes, a house built on a lie will not stand. But I feel the need to distance myself from “biblical values,” even where a stretched interpretation renders them gay friendly. Whatever the merits of the apologists, a work that embraces genocide, misogyny and sexism, slavery and religious persecution should be condemned. And the Judeo-Christo-Islamic scriptures do all that.
TANK
@getreal:
Statistically speaking, that is true. Most self identified catholics are homophobic. You can google it if you’d like. I understand that you’re taking this personally because you’re a catholic, but I will not defend a religion that acts against my behalf and the behalf of those like me. The catholic church funds bigotry and its members assist in that funding.
kevin (not that one)
Then you don’t know what atheism is. What is the faith?
Actually, I do. I was an atheist for 14 years. Let’s start by asking: what is “faith”? Faith is another word for trust. To have faith in something means to trust in it. Atheists do not know whether there is a God or not since there is no empiracle evidence to prove or disprove God. Therefore, they choose to trust what can be proven rather than what can’t. Sounds logical.
But it also seems as logical to admit that there are many mysteries in the universe that we cannot comprehend or are anywhere near comprehending. Such as: what makes us gay? Is it genetics? Science doesn’t know. Is it hormones in the womb? Scientist aren’t sure. Is it environment? Not sure. Is it all three? Maybe, or maybe not.
I don’t know why I’m gay or what causes it, but I know it’s true. Lack or abundance of facts does not a case make. It does not disprove I am gay just because what makes me gay can’t be isolated.
I trust that I am gay, despite not having biological proof that I’m gay. You trust that there is no God and for you, perception is also reality. But trust is also another word for faith, and here you have faith in this belief of “no God”. Religion is simply another way of saying how we organize our beliefs about the world/universe and how we fit into it. So you have a religious faith that there is no God. What’s so hard about understanding that?
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
That’s a misnomer that’s common. It isn’t their christian beliefs that enable them to lead an ethical life. STrip those beliefs away, and the person in question would lead an ethical life anyway just as sure as one who stopped believing in hell wouldn’t go on a killing spree unless that person was mentally unstable to begin with.
TANK
@TANK:
What that comes down to is your failure to realize that being religious and being ethical are mutually exclusive and do not depend upon each other in any way….and it’s shocking, really, that I need to explain this to a grown man.
Allan
“Atheists do not know whether there is a God or not since there is no empiracle evidence to prove or disprove God.”
Wrong. Atheists know there is no god, since there has never been any evidence at all anywhere at any time in the history of humankind or discovered by digging through pre-historical leftovers to prove that such nonsense is true.
TANK
Faith is another word for trust.
No, to have faith is to believe a proposition’s truth value despite not having sufficient evidence or warrant to believe it, or having evidence against it and believing it anyway. Not trust.
TANK
You demand as your benchmark empirical evidence for whether or not god exists? Empirical evidence for something that’s been defined out of empirical observation and testability….that has evolved to evade empirical evidence? I think you’re mixing standards….
Further, a logical contradiction (which the abrahamic god represents) disqualifies it from existing.
getreal
Of course there are a lot of homophobic people in this country but there has been a cultural evolution among many christians in the past 20 years in this country. Ten or 15 years ago they would not even have let an openly gay celebrity judge the Miss USA pageant let alone ask a “gay” question. !0-15 years ago a contestant spouting anti-gay marriage rhetoric would never have gotten booed. People of faith are evolving in their views of LGBT issues are at a startling rate only someone whose only experience with christians is fundamentalists or TV would not see that. There is irony in a christian explaining evolution to an atheist ha-ha.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
My dear, you are starting to talk silly with these childish accusations.
You don’t know the first thing about my country, especially not that we provide more of your oil than any other country in the world.
I may have to retaliate and insult your pissy beer again.
And about not claiming to hold the sole truth?
My god, you do nothing but that (oh except when you post using my name and pretend to be me). You can’t seem to stand anyone deviating in the slightest from your dogmatic line.
getreal
@Allan: Prove with empirical evidence that Love exists.
Dennis
Tank- thread hog much? Can’t tolerate other people having their own beliefs, why? Not able to ‘live and let live’ on the issue of spirituality? Not able to understand the difference between religious dogma/control and spiritual belief?
Dogmatic atheist ranting are really, at the core, no different from the bullshit spewing from an evengelical fundies mouth…it’s an unwillingness to accept any deviation from from the control of YOUR understanding, and insisting that everyone conform to your set of rules…(Submit to Jesus, or else! Believe there is NO God, or else!)
I won’t be bullied by frothing at the mouth fundies OR dogmatic athiests…you’ve twisted my words at every opportunity, and/or have absolutely no capactity to hear anyone else’s opinion but your own. I started on this thread trying to be respectful, and honor other’s opinions, but you make it difficult, dude.
Show some respect for diversity of opinion and experience, if you want any respect for your own. I’m out.
TANK
Christians don’t worship love. Love is a physical phenomena that can be measured and described (first person, probably not, but that’s an entirely different debate)… When christians say they worship love, that’s like worshipping gravity…or a rock…they don’t do that…it doesn’t make any sense for them to worship gravity or another physical phenomena like “love”.
TANK
@Dennis:
Obviously you haven’t read any of my posts. So blow it out of your ass.
getreal
@TANK: I never said I worshiped love. Maybe you should spend a little less time talking what christians think as if we are two people instead of hundreds of millions of people.
kevin (not that one)
Tank,
You’re really evangelizing here. If you don’t believe in God, fine, but why do you try so hard to convince those us who do? You’re not going to make homophobia magically go away by convincing people that belief in God is illogical.
Did gays have it any better under Stalin or Mao?
This post was about homophobia in the Christian religion. If you’re not a Christian, then why do you feel privileged to speak? Obviously, as an atheist, you don’t actually have a say in the matter because it doesn’t affect you.
So, it seems to me that you’re answer to anti-gay Christians is to convert them to atheism? But as you’ve seen here, you aren’t convincing us gay Christians to leave our tradition?
So why do you continue to troll?
TANK
@getreal:
Then WTF is this about? Love does exist as a physical phenomenonon….are you comparing a phyiscal phenomenon that can be studied and described…to an infinitely powerful, all knowing, SUPREMELY [vacuously] good being’s existence? If so…you’re makin’ a mistake…
getreal
@TANK: when you said “Love is a physical phenomena that can be measured and described” that was interesting. Many people feel exactly that way about faith. A previous poster defended atheism by saying there is no empirical evidence of God. So I asked him to provide empirical evidence of love. Because based on his definition that only what is provable exists then love does not exist. Why that sent you on an out there tangent about what Christians worship or don’t worship. I don’t think you know any christians I think you just pull these impressions out of your ass.
TANK
@kevin (not that one):
You’re the one making it personal. The stalin and mao canard! Gotta love you crazy christians and you’re faulty reasoning…all over the place…you forgot pol pot, too, and hitler…for good measure. Dash of hitler to make that unsound argument stick like dinesh tries and fails to do.
Anyways, you have revealed that you don’t know what atheism is…and whatever you were for 14 years…well…I’m sure it wasn’t very well conceived.
TANK
@getreal:
?
getreal
@TANK: Faith is a physicalphenomenon that can be studied and described.
getreal
I was making a point which you missed in your hurry to push your agenda. It is ironic that you are dialoguing with a christian and you have spent all the time telling me what Christians think not taking into to account what I am telling you I think. Perhaps since your idea of what all Christians think is so antiquated you should concentrate what all atheists think. All christians don’t think any particular way because we don’t share a single consciousness. Different people have different points of view and experiences. If you are serious about your views you have to take realism into account not just continue to perpetrate this myth of monolithic christian consciousness it simply does not exist.
TANK
@getreal:
Ah, yeah, faith in physicalism, you say, is equal to theism. Well, not in terms of how productive the theory is in terms of explaining how things work…Weighed against theism or nonmaterialism…materialism seems to beat it into the dust as far as explanatory and predictive power. So without getting into real arguments for physicalism (which I’m just about), let’s just say it’s a lot more likely of being true.
TANK
@TANK:
To say that the assumptions are equally based in faith is like saying a painter can’t paint a picture of a person who’s alone…or it’s impossible to imagine your own funeral…cheap and patently false.
getreal
@TANK: It is also disappointing you are now calling people crazy for disagreeing with you. For all your posts of how homophobic and closed minded christians are when you have christians calmly dialoguing with you, you start hurling insults. For someone who claims to be so rational you are getting pretty irrational and defensive. Try to have an open mind everyone does not want to be converted to your religion of atheism and every christian does not dislike you because you choose the religion of atheism.
kevin (not that one)
@TANK: I was merely suggesting that life for gays under communism (where atheism replaced the state religion) was no better than under the previous societies where there was a partnership between the church and state. I wasn’t calling you a stalinist or maoist. Sorry if you thought so.
Perhaps you would’ve picked that up if this debate wasn’t so emotionally charged for you. I can’t fathom why it is. It’s not that emotional for me, since I have nothing to lose or gain in merely stating my opinion. And I certainly wasn’t threatend by people who believed in God when I didn’t.
But truly, I could care less if you believe in God. Frankly, I wouldn’t want anyone to believe in God without having a good reason to. My belief is that God makes himself (“him” being how I interpret God, not really a statement on gender) known to us in good time.
I just chose to acknowlege it when he did, and I’m glad I did.
TANK
@getreal:
No, I’m calling people who make the claim that atheism causes genocide crazy or disingenuous. Those who link stalin, mao, etc, to atheism as some kind of argument against it…it is crazy and stupid.
TANK
@kevin (not that one):
And that was for other reasons than atheism. To suggest that it was something particular about atheism requires you explaining what about the meaning of the word entails genocide…it’s mind numbingly stupid (this argument). Sexism can exist independently of religion…so can racism. However, it’s a lot harder to discriminate in predominantly christian nations (e.g., U.S.) without that extra justification that religion provides and has provided to do so.
getreal
@TANK: I think if you look at Kevin”s explanation it is respectful and measured. I think maybe you should leave yourself open to the fact that people are more complex than you are giving them credit for. Others have as much right to their religion as you have to yours.
TANK
It should be emotionally charged for any thinking person…toxic religion dominates this planet, and people every day are slain and tortured because of religious values. In the united states, people are harassed and denied basic civil liberties because of fundamentally religious values.
Allan
@getreal:
Christians do not worship “love” they worship “god”. Atheists do not not believe in “love”, they do not believe in “god”.
Prove to me with empirical evidence that “like” exists? Yes, that has nothing to do with “god”. Neither does your side-stepping demand.
The empirical evidence for atheists is the 100% lack of any evidence at all anywhere at any time in the history of humankind or this planet that there is “god”. After a while, like forever, it becomes plain obvious to rational beings.
Is there “love”? You know there is and it can be proven. Is there “like”? You know there is and it can be proven.
Is there “god”? No, I’m sorry for all those who can’t live without magic beans telling them whom they should despise and exercise supremacy over, but there is not. Never was, is not now, never will be.
TANK
@getreal:
I think you’re extremely biased being a catholic in denial and don’t understand what was being said. Atheism does not come with sexism, racism, etc (these ideologies have nothing to do with atheism…there are sexist racists who worship god fervantly)…christianity does. It is a part of christian beliefs.
getreal
@Allan: I never said Christians worship God. Never said it. It was an analogy. My point was there are things that do exist that cannot be proved with empirical evidence. So let’s see if you can actually answer the question. Can you prove with empirical evidence that Love exists?
TANK
@getreal:
So how does that even begin to justify whether or not god exists? The christian god at that.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You have ignored my point that many social movements – anti slavery, labour, anti-absolutionist, anti poverty – came directly out of Christian congregations.
Not to say they would not have happened otherwise (much later) but the fact is Christianity has been just as much a force for social reform as it has been for repression.
The first jurisdiction to outlaw church marriage entirely and make the institution secular was actually Oliver Cromwell’s Puritan Religious Protectorate.
So you’re ignoring a good part of history.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Yeah, and pro slavery, drinking, misognyny were justified by religion, too. So what’s your argument? THat it’s meaningless?
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I’m not arguing that christianity hasn’t inadvertently attracted some good people who, themselves, focus on this or that message (secular messages at that…like…charity work), and do good things. We’re at a time now, and have been for quite some time, where religion just gets in the way. Ethics has a long history that I’m almost positive you’re unaware of…stretching millenia…right now, religion isn’t needed to do good things, and the potential for harm that it represents worldwide demands (toxic religion) that it be dispensed with by thinking people who are genuinely concerned about the right thing to do.
getreal
@TANK: I’m not in denial about anything. I’m secure in my beliefs and feel a responsibility to champion causes of justice and equality because of my faith. I would never try to indoctrinate people into my faith as you have tried so hart to indoctrinate people into yours to the extreme of calling people crazy if they believe differently.I believe in personal freedom and don’t believe in pushing my views onto others but instead believe in respecting their views. I think it is dangerous to a persons well being to be too wrapped up in what others think. Instead of trying to control people why not concentrate on your life and your views and keep an open mind with others. Maybe you would enjoy your atheism more and would be less angry if you were not trying so hart to convert people. You not a missionary so stop trying to convert people. Also just because someone has different beliefs does not mean they deserve respect any less than you do. Not being sarcastic being serious.
TANK
@getreal:
I’m merely dealing with your responses and argument for your faith and the demographics…if that’s missionary work to you… I don’t think you’re very confident in your faith.
I call people crazy who equate atheism to stalinism….
Allan
It’s clear from the postings of those who keep referring to atheism as a religion that their intent is to insult and irritate. Mission accomplished.
Now, if you’d like to keep talking to atheists and you want to consider yourself to be as polite as you seem to think you are being, then you’re going to have to drop that. You know that atheists are not religious, do not belong to any religion, and do not believe in “god”, so why not quit saying they do? How does it serve you to do that?
Just because you can’t imagine someone without a religion does not mean you can assign someone a religion. Every time you shell out that crap you are pushing a plank in the agenda of lock-step anti-gay christians.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Are you not aware that there are progressive and repressive movements within churches?
It is not meaningless at all. They do not cancel each other out, and the net change, over time, has been improvement in our society.
For every one of these idiots at the top of the page there are a growing number of religious people who support LGBT inclusion.
Read your history, man.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
I am aware of this. Are you aware that there is no necessary connection to a single thing a religious person did (even under the guise of religion) that happened to alleviate the suffering of a single sentient being? That means that it’s not religion…or anything inherent to religion…that causes people to be good. And right now, religion is doing more harm than good…because religion isn’t about those good things; it’s not about helping your neighbor…religion is all about the bells and whistles, for helping your neighbor would occur with or without religion…and has throughout recorded history, and before it…before religion ever existed, ethics did..
Who cares if they support lgbt inclusion? Most christians do not…simple as that. That’s right now talk, not wishful thinking.
Allan
“I never said Christians worship God. Never said it.”
Saying it is necessary? WTF?
TANK
@TANK:
Not 40-75 or maybe 100 years or more thinking, either…please don’t use a minority of christians to excuse the vast majority of them for their repulsive values and beliefs. That, too, is unethical.
getreal
@TANK: Oh and the idea of charity work is not a secular concept. Any scholar will tell you our concept of charity work actually comes from religion. In the bible it is called doing good works that is why the charity organization are almost all religion based or started. So our idea of charity work is actually in this country based in religious tradition.
TANK
@getreal:
Oh yes, without skydaddy raining brimstone down upon the lands, charity wouldn’t exist…christ almighty, how can anyone take you seriously if you say these patently false things with a straight face?
getreal
@Allan: Are you incapable of scanning back and reading that is the second time you have misquoted me when the text is mere inches up the screen. Are you doing it on purpose to get around the fact that you cannot answer a very basic question?
TANK
andrew carnegie was an atheist…many great philanthropists were and are.
TANK
@TANK:
but not so serious, saying that religion “invented” charity is like saying that jesus invented the thumb. These are evolved instincts…that we have.
getreal
@TANK: But the concept of “charity work” comes from the bible where it says each man must do good “works” It is perhaps a semantic argument. I’m not sure why you are trying so hard to get nasty and personal my father does not live in the sky and I don’t see where insulting a persons parents is even appropriate.
kevin (not that one)
I cannot for the life of me figure out why some atheists get upset when one compares their beliefs with those who believe in God. I don’t understand why they’re so angry when it is they who try so hard to convince us that they’re the enlightened ones.
I hear a lot of talk but see very little walk.
What I really believe is that self-identified atheists who troll any and all posts relating to religion are conflicted and deeply hurt people. And for that I’m sorry.
TANK
@getreal:
Oh my god…you aren’t serious.
getreal
@TANK: Kevin never equated Stahlinism with atheism he merely pointed out that gay and lesbian people have not historically fared well in atheist run countries that is a fact it has nothing to do with insulting atheists.
TANK
@kevin (not that one):
It would be like me comparing your beliefs in religion to the exact opposite and saying that’s what you are….
Like let’s say (brainstorm with me, pumpkin) you’re a democrat…and I called you a republican…and then I called you a nazi…and then I called you a republican nazi…and I insisted that you are, in fact, a republican nazi blowhard…no matter how many times you tried to explain to me why you’re a democrat…
getreal
I am secure in my beliefs that is why I would never try to indoctrinate you into my way of thinking as a matter of fact none of the Christians on this thread have done anything but ask you to respect other people’s right to believe as they wish without insult. Why can’t you be secure in yourself and accept that every person has a right to their faith. No one is trying to insult you for your faith in atheism why not treat others with respect.
TANK
@getreal:
yes he did…and if you can’t see what he was doing…then I attribute that to your defensiveness…you can’t see how that would be offensive? Him basically asserting that atheism caused the atrocities under stalin? Of course you can’t…you’re a catholic. You’d probably like dinesh d’souza.
getreal
@TANK: “please don’t use a minority of christians to excuse the vast majority of them for their repulsive values and beliefs. That, too, is unethical.”
Is that what you believe? Wow that is disturbing I am not answerable for anyone’s wrongs but my own. It is not my job to take responsibility for others wrong doing and I won’t. If you think that by insulting people on this thread you are somehow injuring conservative homophobes I’ve got a bridge to sell you. It seems like you are misplacing your anger.
TANK
@getreal:
It has nothing to do with faith…you’re in denial…extreme denial…because of your faith. Yes, in fact, most christians are antigay…did you know that? it’s not…subtle…at all.
getreal
@TANK: So now you hate me because I’m Catholic? I am so glad I’m not a bigot it must be so limiting to judge people on their race or religion or sexual orientation. What a terrible way to live. I reread what he said and he was making an analogy. He never attributed atrocities to atheism. It seems like he was calmly and respectfully out arguing you using your own points so you are hiding behind an imagined injury ( a common debate technique) as a way to get around debating the issue with him. There is no reason for you to get emotional or personal. You seem to take a lot of pride in knowing what “Christians” think but when actually faced with christians who don’t fit into your very narrow ideas of what christians are you explode. Why not just agree to disagree respectful and share insights and opinions.
Dan
Those of you who are talking about whether Christians accept homosexuality might find this interesting. It’s the huge Pew Center survey released at the end of April. One question was, do you think homosexuality should be accepted or discouraged by society?
According to the survey, 56% of mainline Protestants and 58% of Catholics think homosexuality should be accepted. That’s compared with the national average of 50% for all Americans. Only 40% of all Americans think homosexuality should be discouraged.
Of the few Orthodox Christians, only 48% think homosexuality should be accepted. However, even fewer at 37% think it should be discouraged. Evangelicals, Mormons, and the few Jehovah’s Witnesses also are unlikely to think it should be accepted: 26%, 24%, and a tiny 12% for Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Of the small Other Christians group, 69% think it should be accepted. Historically Black churches are at 39%, vs. a somewhat larger 46% who think it should be discouraged.
Large majorities of Jews, Buddhists, and Other Faiths think homosexuality should be accepted: 79%, 82%, and 84%. Hindus are at 48%, but that’s compared with 37% who think it should be discouraged.
Unaffiliated Americans are also likely to think it should be accepted: 71%. This group includes atheists.
Remember, Americans are MUCH more likely to support gay rights than to think homosexuality should be accepted. For example, 67% supported same-sex marriage or civil unions in a new CBS/NY Times poll. That’s 42% for marriage (a 9% increase in one month) and 25% for civil unions!
I don’t post often but I post long 🙂
getreal
@TANK: I know a lot of christians and none are anti-gay I can tell you don’t know any.
TANK
Only 40%!
TANK
@getreal:
Really? Then you must either have a different understanding of the term than I do (antigay) or don’t know many…because I consider being antigay voting to discriminate against marriage equality, for example.
getreal
@Dan: Thank you Dan it is import for us to red facts not just our fantasies of who is antigay.
getreal
According to the survey, 56% of mainline Protestants and 58% of Catholics think homosexuality should be accepted.
So that means Catholics and Protestant rate higher than the average American. Which proves my hypothesis not all Christians are antigay most think gays should be accepted. We have a long way to go but let’s at least be realistic about where we are. Some of us need to leave our insulated communities and interact with others types of people so our ideas of what is going on trend wise in this country would not be so off. I think it all comes down to be respectful be kind which for some of us based on our beliefs is obviously easier than others.
getreal
@TANK: Well even 40% is not a small minority so even on that count you were wrong.
Dan
I forgot the Muslims. Only 27% of them think homosexuality should be accepted.
Dan
Honestly I was surprised the mainline protestants did as well as they did. I thought they would be more like 50-50.
TANK
@getreal:
How was I wrong? I’m was referring to christians, overall.
TANK
@getreal:
And if you want to get really depressed, look at catholics worldwide…see how far that slightly over simple majority shrinks down to nothing.
getreal
@TANK: Well you insulted me for being a Catholic when Catholics are 56% instead of the small minority you said. So since most of us believe gays should be accepted maybe it is you who is in denial. As I told you early on in the dialogue the statistics don’t support your assertions about Most christians being antigay.I just think that you should be open to the fact that things are changing and that every Christian person is not against you or deserves your scorn.
Thanks you Dan for actually supplying statistics.
getreal
@TANK: I’m not depressed because I know christians and I have seen how in a lot of places here and abroad people of faith are changing on this issue. I have also seen how people who insulate themselves from anyone who is different than them can have a very skewed view of others who are different and have a very biased view of what is going on. I think this thread illustrates that.
strumpetwindsock
@getreal:
That selective memorypretty common for him.
I am still waiting for him to show me where I said that Prejean woman was not a bigot.
@TANK: And I could turn around and say all the evil works in religion is just the result of bad people taking it over (and frankly, I think that is closer to the truth, though not absolute).
Your assertion is a real stretch of the imagination. I’m surprised you dare to present it as a presumed fact.
TANK
how did I insult you for being a catholic? And yet I shouldn’t be offended when you try to undermine atheism and call it what’s it not (religion)?
C’mon…
And that number’s nothing to celebrate about. Nothing at all. Catholics are generally more educated than many other christian sects…like evangelicals.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
You’d fail, however, given that it’s a part of their religion, and hate speech is routinely preached from the pulpit and always has been.
TANK
@getreal:
Right now though..not one hundred or more years from now…let’s deal with right now, not how one interpretation of fairytales is changing the world for gays for the better…because I don’t see it here in the states, let alone the third world.
TANK
@TANK:
How many lbs of scripture do you require to back that one up?
getreal
@TANK:
No. 113 · TANK
@getreal:
I think you’re extremely biased being a catholic in denial and don’t understand what was being said.
I think Dan completely ripped apart your main thesis and you are not trying to overcome that.
Dan
@getreal: I think it helps to be grounded with actual numbers 🙂 The sample size is huge as well, more than 33,000.
The marriage results are great too:
42% favor same-sex marriage – the largest group!
25% are for civil unions
29% are for no couple rights
TANK
Really? Because my main thesis was that most christians in the u.s. and worldwide do not accept gays, and are intolerant of them. Did Dan rip that apart? Where?
TANK
I too think it’s good to be grounded with actual numbers, but if the contention is that christianity is gay friendly faith (in most of its central denominations, anyway)…then I think you’re a plant 😉
TANK
a plant as in ficus…
Dan
That was a response to #152 btw.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: I noticed he got pretty nasty with people who were just trying to respectfully dialogue with him but had opinions he felt were unacceptable. I had dialogued with him on other thread with no problem I think some people get very heated around religion.
@TANK: I was not meaning to insult your faith in atheism by calling it a religion. It just seems faith in atheism seems like a religion just a religion where you don’t believe. It was not meant to be disrespectful but if it is not a religion why are you spending so much time trying to convert people.
Dan
No, no, I’m definitely a human! Trust me!!
getreal
@TANK: No one has ever said Christianity was a gay friendly faith but you. I said that there are many christians who are gay positive and opinions are changing. The statistics support that. Why think in such absolutes it is silly. Life is gray.
TANK
It just seems faith in atheism seems
Okay, I’ll stop you right here. You’ve repeated this at least a half dozen times. Each time, I have tried to correct you. Explain how exactly atheists have religious faith or faith of any kind. I will probably to correct you again based upon your non understanding of the terminology.
.
TANK
@getreal:
But nowhere did I deny that there were gay friendly christians. Only that they are the minority of all christians, not a slim majority…as you seem content with.
getreal
@TANK: No now that you have been schooled you are trying to change your original hypothesis. If you want to walk around with the false impression that most Christians hate you so be it. I don’t believe in having a victim complex. I have friends who truly believe ALL white people are racists because of their own experiences. The statistics don’t bear their hypothesis out either but they can feel justified in their own racism if they imagine all white people are not. I have had the same kind of conversations as this with them.
getreal
No. 169 · TANK
@getreal:
But nowhere did I deny that there were gay friendly christians. Only that they are the minority of all christians, not a slim majority…as you seem content with.
@TANK: No. 66 · TANK
@getreal:
They’re a small minority of gay friendly people of faith.
TANK
Schooled? Please. I stand by my claim. Most christians, worldwide, are antigay.
TANK
Most christians in the u.s., too, are antigay. Perhaps it’s how you understand that term, too…being a catholic.
TANK
@getreal:
Yeah, where would I get that impression from? Hmmmmmmmm…what with almost fifty per cent of all catholics, for example, being antigay.
TANK
@TANK:
In the u.s.
getreal
@TANK: Maybe if we are talking about bias we should all focus on being respectful of other and alleviating our own biases. Everyone has them some more than others obviously.
No. 155 · TANK
how did I insult you for being a catholic?
No. 113 · TANK
@getreal:
I think you’re extremely biased being a catholic in denial and don’t understand what was being said.
TANK
I think that’s true…you don’t know what atheism is…you call it a religious faith…it’s not. This is a tired meme that gets off the ground by deliberately redefining atheism. I also think you’re extremely biased being a person of faith toward religious faith.
getreal
@TANK: That was only your claim after Dan showed up with facts. Do you really want me to go looking through your posted to prove you wrong with your own words again? Look I have done it twice I’m not doing it again I’m not trying to fight with you just to assert my right to be treat with as much respect as you.
getreal
@TANK: Well between you and me I think people have a right to believe whatever they want without conversion or indoctrination that is not biased. You have spent the first part of this thread trying to convert people I would never do that.
TANK
But, and for the last time…because you seem to be distorting what the survey found or what dan reported in the survey, anyway–dan didn’t refute my claim. I think my claim’s pretty solid. Now, I hope you can appreciate that just because 58% of catholics think that homosexuality should be accepted (and what does that amount to? I wonder how many of that 58% would vote against marriage equality)…doesn’t mean that the majority of christians in the united states are not antigay…
getreal
So the word faith is synonymous with belief so if you believe in atheism how am I insulting you by saying you have faith in atheism?
TANK
@getreal:
Well, sure, but that’s not what I was discouraging or even addressing. People should be able to believe whatever they want so long as those beliefs don’t intefere with the lives of others. This isn’t the case for many religious people, who can’t help themselves, and do interfere with the lives of others.
TANK
@getreal:
No, it’s not synonymous with the word belief. One can have a belief that the door is open…that’s not faith, though. Something about evidence in there that you don’t seem to be getting.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Those who oppose gay marriage and inclusion in the church may be in the majority (and I am not sure they are – though a vocal minority obviously oppose it).
Most of the churches wrestling in the issue seem to be pretty divided, with some in favour. The situation is hardly as monolithic as you paint it, and the important thing is that the winds of change are in our favour:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/12/AR2005081201606.html
http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/print_w_comments/3908/
http://www.hrc.org/issues/5021.htm
http://www.slapupsidethehead.com/2009/02/toronto-anglicans-latest-to-ponder-same-sex-blessings/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4651803.stm
http://warc.jalb.de/warcajsp/side.jsp?news_id=272&part_id=0&navi=5
@TANK:
Hatred is not preached from every pulpit, and for every word of hate in the bible there are many more of encouragement and love. I’m not even a Christian and I can see that.
getreal
It seems like you have a belief system based on your faith in atheism that you preach to people about it , you try to convert them, you truly believe your way is the only way. That sounds like a religion to me. Just because you worship nothing doesn’t mean you are not in a religion.
getreal
@TANK: Okay prove to me God does not exist since you have evidence.(I love listening to people talk about their religion especially fundamentalists)
TANK
@getreal:
Well, you can repeat it all you want…but you need to establish it. You haven’t done that. Try looking up the word atheism…doing a little research on the meaning of the term.
TANK
@getreal:
Define god.
Allan
Charity work is based in the fact that some people care about others, not religion. It is mere convenience for some people to use religious organizations to express and multiply their caring. It says nothing about the religion and everything about the individuals doing the charity.
If there were no religions some people would care more about others than… others. Being a kind and considerate, generous and thoughtful person no more requires religion than being French does. Our ideas of charity come from within ourselves.
People all around the world can and do care about other people without the necessity of believing in … magic beans, for example.
It is only the supremacist attitudes of some religious people which convinces them (and causes them to try to convince everyone else) that without their communal religion they wouldn’t give a damn about other human beings, or wounded animals, or a dying plant. I think better of human beings and their motivations than that.
People like the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. did not have to be a Rev. to do what he did. He was a Rev., and he did what he did, but if he did not grow up in that religious mileau I believe he would have done what he did anyway. Most religious people don’t.
Well, I’m not here to convince anyone or to sell atheism. What am I going to sell you… nothing, to replace your “god”? Sorry, but I don’t have enough interest or time. I will defend atheists and atheism against… shall we call them “errors in understanding”? (Come on, I was going to call them “intentional lies and distortions about atheists and atheism.”)
I wasn’t drawn here because of the atheism thread on the discussion board, I came here because the story referenced some black Christian nutcase and 100 of his religious leader friends going to Washington, D.C. to start what they would like to see evolve into a “gay marriage Armageddon.” And people wonder where Queer people get the mistaken idea that Calif.’s Prop. H8 was passed because of people like him.
Actually, once again, H8 became law in Calif. because of religion.
TANK
@getreal:
Preach to them? No, I’m free to express myself just as they’re free to express themselves about their religious faith…and if you notice what I’m responding to, it’s other’s expression of their religious faith…many bad ideas and, in fact, libel of atheism is found throughout this comments section. when I correct them, you refer back to the false definition you have going about what atheism is.
TANK
@Allan:
I forgot about that…my goodness. I’m debating with GETREAL here who thinks that the bible invented charity…
getreal
@TANK: I don’t have to look up atheism as hard as you have tired here I’m not converting. I think people deserve to believe whatever they wish without indoctrination. You have a right to your faith as much as I have a right to mine.
TANK
You say you’re a catholic. Well, catholics believe in a god that is omniscient, omnibenevolent (vacuously, anyway…because when you create your standards of right and wrong…it’s arbitrary and even stalin could be perfectly good in that scenario), and omnipotent or all powerful. Well, I think that such a being is logically inconsistent with the existence of unnecessary suffering, for god could have created a world with entities who freely never chose to do bad things, and in which natural evil (like earthquakes and tsunamis, diseases and whatnot) never occurred… This is called the logical problem of evil, distinguished from the evidential problem of evil, and is quite old. No theologian has ever been able to answer the challenge adequately.
Allan
Just because you can ask a question doesn’t mean I am required to attempt to answer it. I tried to dismiss your question as having nothing to do with this discussion. Of course, anyone with the right background in hormones, human physiology, human biology, endocrinology, etc., can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that “love” as defined by commoners such as ourselves exists. So are you going to answer any of my questions, or is this a one-way street with the insults?
getreal
@Allan: As someone who worked on the Prop 8 campaign and continues to work actively on the repeal campaign you are not taking into account that certain Republicans regardless of whether they believed in God or not overwhelmingly voted in favor of Prop 8. And there were over 50 religious organizations contributing money and man hours to defeat Prop 8. It was Mormons from Utah who came into our state and waged a very expensive campaign of out an out lies and deliberate misinformation.
TANK
@getreal:
But I haven’t tried…I’ve been bored…this isn’t effort to combat strawmen arguments and patently false claims.
strumpetwindsock
@getreal:
God, don’t ask him to define atheism.
He’ll just start that damn argument we had in the gay jesus thread all over again – that athiesm isn’t a belief, therefore we can’t challenge or question it.
Too bad we don’t have the same privilege.
And I have a comment (#184) awaiting moderation, probably because I posted some links about the amount of support for the gay community there actually is in some churches.
TANK
No, strumpet, negative atheism isn’t a belief.
strumpetwindsock
@Allan:
Gee, you guys are peas in a pod.
You can’t answer a question, so you pretend it doesn’t exist.
TANK
Though, there’s no difference between negative and positive atheism in my view (strong or weak), and I can prove that…so atheism is not a belief. It is the absence of one.
getreal
@Allan: My point was the exact parameters that can measure love also can accurately measure faith. Just because someone believes differently than you does not mean they are automatically your enemy and are somehow out to get you. I believe when speaking with someone who has different beliefs it is important to try to be calm and reasonable it shouldn’t be difficult for anyone to follow that regardless of their faith.
TANK
Well, allan, if getreal’s making any sense at all, it is saying that faith is just as physical a process as love…not defending the content of religious faith.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
You have nothing but empty accusations, right? What question?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Here we go again….
I think I countered that one last one by pointing out that if you have no belief in anything, then you are actually an agnostic, one who holds no position on whether there is a supernatural realm or not.
If you are an athiest – you have a firm belief that there is no such realm – you definitely have a belief system.
Your attempt to paint atheism as an empirical state free from the stain of supernatural belief is ridiculous. If it is not a belief of yours then why are you so rabidly attached to it (and the fact that some other people do not agree)?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Read Allan’s comment which I was responding to.
getreal
@TANK: I think you need to stop believing you know what everyone believes you don’t. The only person whose beliefs you can speak on absolutely are your own. So stop preaching to me about what as a Catholic I believe because 1. You never bother to ask me just self-importantly told me what I believed and 2. You presumptuous claim that you know (with no evidence exactly what I believe)exactly what I believe but you are wrong. Maybe if you concentrated on what you believe instead of your idea that you are omniscient and KNOW what everyone else believed you would not get so heated in these discussion. This unwavering idea that you know what people are thinking without even asking is an albatross around your neck.
getreal
“Well, allan, if getreal’s making any sense at all, it is saying that faith is just as physical a process as love…not defending the content of religious faith”
My point exactly.Thanks
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: It is confusing somehow what they believe in is not a belief. What they have faith in isn’t a religion even as they try to convert people to it. It is a bit amusing to read someone go on and on about a belief then turn around and tell you it is not a belief.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: Allan and Tank have a right to their faith period. They just have to stop with the trying to convert people it is like having jehovah’s Witnesses at the door.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
No. Look up what agnosticism means. Agnosticism is THE BELIEF that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know whether or not god exists. It is an epistemic claim, not a metaphysical one. Atheists don’t have that belief.
strumpetwindsock
@getreal:
I understand the sophistric game he’s trying to play – atheism is the absence of religious belief, therefore it is not a belief.
But in a practical sense it’s nonsense. We don’t live in a world without religious belief, so trying to imagine one without it, or to speculate how things would have played out in this imaginary world is ridiculous.
If his atheism is not a belief he wouldn’t be holding onto it the way he is.
TANK
@TANK:
Though one can be an agnostic and separately an atheist and/or a theist.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
this isn’t sophistry. THis is the meaning of words…that you clearly don’t know. Basic stuff. Not sophistry…
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Yes or no.
Do you believe there is no god?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
LOL
This from the fellow who uses his rhetoric taxtbook to keep his ass warm when he isn’t copying big words out of it.
Please answer my question.
TANK
@getreal:
Well, this is no more a response to the logical problem of evil than if you were to type random words into the comments section. I don’t care if you’re a catholic. I do care when the catholic church funds bigotry like the yes on 8 campaign. You requested an argument disproving the existence of god (at least the abrahamic god), and I provided it.
In fact, I think it’s unethical to worship such a sadistic being, in fact…because that’s what you believe it must be.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock:
If his atheism is not a belief he wouldn’t be holding onto it the way he is” I agree I know faith when I see it and he has a strong belief in his it is nothing to be ashamed of we all have a right to our beliefs.
Allan
One cannot be converted to atheism. One can only be converted from one religion to another. Atheism is neither a faith-based belief nor a religion.
Now that you have been informed by Tank and me that, beyond a doubt, it is an insult to accuse an atheist of being religious, and factually incorrect to define atheism as a faith like a religion is a faith, or a belief the same as a religious belief, will you stop intentionally insulting atheists everywhere?
I will guess your answer for you: “No.” Presumptious big ol’ Queer, ain’t I?
Now that you clearly have been made aware of the insults you may have unintentionally been tossing at atheists, can you see that insisting on using terms like “preaching atheism” and “trying to convert people to atheism” is intentionally insulting to atheists, will you use non-religious words when discussing atheism or talking with or about atheists? “No.”
strumpetwindsock
@getreal:
Don’t know if you actually read the Gay Jesus thread through to the end. It’s leaden in spots, but worth it.
Allan
@Getreal 194:
As a Queer Californian, I repeat, “once again, H8 became law in Calif. because of religion.”
strumpetwindsock
@Allan:
Sorry, your wrong.
You have never heard stories of people who have lost their belief in God after some horrible event like a death, or violent tragedy.
What about someone who becomes disillusioned with his or her faith and becomes an atheist?
What is that if not a conversion of one’s belief system?
getreal
@TANK: You hate institutions all you want if you think that is healthy and productive. Plenty of Catholics gave to the no on Prop 8 campaign (I’m one of them) maybe you should stop thinking in generalizations so much. Several of your generalization today have been proven false.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: I didn’t I just posted who knows if Jesus was gay or straight and why should it matter and pretty much got out of there I will check it out though.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
This is false, and amounts to your faith that it’s false. NOthing more, and no facts.
getreal
@Allan: Prop 8 became law because there was a very expensive campaign of misinformation. There was also extensive outreach to every community race,ethnicity, religion, urban or rural tailoring the lies to suit each community. If you are a Californian I will ask you what are you doing currently in your community for marriage equality? There is a lot of work being done and complaining on a blog does not count as work.
Allan
No. 206 · getreal
Tank: “Well, allan, if getreal’s making any sense at all, it is saying that faith is just as physical a process as love…not defending the content of religious faith”
getreal: My point exactly.Thanks
Ah… I’m stumbling on that big “if”. I was asked to prove that “love” exists, because I said there has never been any proof that “god” exists, ever, anywhere.
Sure, “faith” and “belief” would meet the same scientific “does it exist” tests as “love”, but — unfortunately for every religious person who has ever lived, and believed in any religion or god at all — “god” cannot meet any of the same scientific “does it exist” tests.
TANK
@getreal:
Are you denying that sizable contributions from catholics and the church went to the yes on 8 campaign? Are you saying that’s okay? Sure, some catholics probably donated time and money to the opposition, but is it your claim that most of them did? That’s false.
TANK
@Allan:
It’s equivocation, too. And then they like to apply logical certainty (which we can’t really prove anything exists with…or with logic, anyway) to proving or disproving god.
TANK
Now that is sophistry! LOL!
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Atheism is not a belief system, though…do you know what that is? How is atheism a belief system? What are the faith based belief of atheism?
TANK
@TANK:
all the while treating it like an empirical claim. That’s the sophistry.
getreal
No one is trying to insult atheists (who knew they were so touchy) if someone saying you have a right to your beliefs is insulting you than you are trying to be insulted. If you took several of the posts here and substituted Mormonism with atheism it would be a sermon. If you don’t want people to think you are a religion stop preaching about it. Why not just believe what you believe. When you start posting that your way is the only rational way to believe you not only sound like you are espousing a religion but you sound like a religious fundamentalist. If you don’t want people to think you are a religion don’t try to convert people. If you want to walk around with a victim complex and think everyone is against you go ahead it seems depressing but it is your life to live how you please.
Allan
Semantic misunderstanding. Somebody’s earlier post declared that there can be no real absence of belief because this is a religious world. Think of that, then you may see why “loss of faith” is not something I would consider a religious conversion. We were talking about a religious conversion some say is sought by atheists from religious people, to get them to become non-religious, and I said that was not something atheists seek, because conversion is something one does from not religious to religious, or from one religion to another.
Your use of the secular version of the word “convert”, talking about “belief” without referring to “religious belief” in the middle of a religious discussion may have fooled me. “Convince” would be more accurate and less insulting, due to the overwhelming religious connotations of “convert”. But then, you knew that all along, right?
getreal
@Allan: Well I have an open mind since you are trying so hard to convert me prove God does not exist.
TANK
@getreal:
I’ll stop when you stop preaching your religion to people. Once again, negative atheism is not a believe. It’s the absence of one.
getreal
I give up if they people want to be touchy about their religion let them if saying they have a right to their beliefs is an insult they want to be insulted.
TANK
@getreal:
No one’s trying to convert. You’re libeling atheists with your complete misunderstanding…repeating it over and over again, trying to defend your religion, etc.
TANK
and no one can be converted to atheism. That implies it’s a belief system with rituals and whatnot. It’s not. Once again, you’re mischaracterizing atheism completely. You don’t care what it means. It has been defined for you time and again here. Your dogma prevents you from not accurately describing what it is, instead relying on insulting ad hominems and sloppy equivocations. This is sophistry you’re engaging in.
getreal
@TANK: I have never preached my religion on this thread read back never preached it once. I don’t believe in trying to convert people. And you won’t find one post where I preach christianity to anyone on this thread. All I have espoused on this thread is that everyone should respected everyone else’s beliefs and not try to convert them. The only one preaching their religious beliefs here is you.
TANK
@getreal:
Yes, you have. You’ve consistently stated that people aren’t true christians who practice bigotry. They are. Just as true as you are. They’re unethical, but christian nonetheless. Further, no one’s preaching atheism or trying to convert you. If you look at the record here, it’s just responses to your criticisms of atheism and false claims about it, while bolstering your own religion by claiming that it’s enlightened, etc.
TANK
and no, everyone should not be respecting everyone’s “beliefs” simply because they have them. SOme beliefs should be criticized because they cause harm and are unethical. Religious beliefs are often implicated in that scenario, and I do not respect them. I mean, on a seperate level, I don’t respect them because they’re highly irrational and patently false.
Allan
I don’t think everyone is out to get me. I think most people don’t know or care one little bit that I even exist! And I’m fine with that, not depressed a bit. And you know for a fact that if you had only said that atheists have a right to their atheism we would not even be talking.
Now you’ve convinced me.
You are an unrepentent religious supremacist, an intentional insulter and demeaner of atheists, and even in your last post you made sure to include religious insults: “don’t try to convert people;” you accused atheists on this board of preaching (that’s what it’s called) a Mormon “sermon” except in name only; “stop preaching about it (atheism); you accused us of “espousing a religion”; you accused us of “religious fundamentalism”; and, for good measure, you tossed in the ol’ “victim complex”.
And you don’t see that you are an anti-atheist religious bigot who is accusing atheists of doing everything that you combined in that one post.
Sweeeet! Nice job!
getreal
I have only ever tried to defend people on this thread. When people said all Christian feel this way (which stats disproved) I said there are plenty of right thinking Christians I never espoused Christianity itself only that it was wrong to malign a large diverse group of people. I see how easy it is for you to demonize people though saying “The Catholic Church” supported Prop 8 when statistically speaking most Catholics voted against Prop 8. I just think your faith or lack thereof should be based on your values not who you choose to hate or fear. Just my opinion.
TANK
@getreal:
Who said all christians felt that way? Look, my best friend in the entire world…is highly religious. I don’t care if you’re catholic, what I do care about is what catholic faith causes people to do (fund bigotry, etc). I’m not saying that a religious person has never performed a good deed, nor that all christians are homophobic. That’s not my contention. Most, worldwide and in the u.s., I contend, are, and those beliefs cause harm.
I think someone should be able to believe in whatever fairytale they want to. That dungeons and dragons isn’t merely a game…but a representation of the way things used to be…I don’t care…when those beliefs start to have a tangible effect that adversely impacts other people, then it matters to me…then that belief NEEDS TO GO.
getreal
@Allan: Okay Allan everyone is out to get you. If someone tells you have a right to believe whatever you want and that makes you think they are trying to hurt you so be it. Like most fundamentalist you think anyone who believes differently than you even if they respect your right to your beliefs is your enemy. It’s silly and childish. Believe whatever you want just stop trying to convert people it is desperate as is the victim routine no one cares if people choose to believe in atheism.
kevin (not that one)
Perhaps I can attempt to bridge this divide by saying that I would take an ethical atheist over an immoral person of faith any day.
I believe that it’s not enough to say you that you are such-and-such and therefore you are “saved”, but that it’s what you do and how you behave towards others that matters most.
Tank and Allan are going to love this: I honestly believe that atheists who do good and who treat people kindly and with respect, who work to alleviate suffering, and who show compassion to those who need it, are doing the will of God on earth – whether they choose to look at it that way or not. They, not the hypocrites of the religious world, are the inheritors of the Kingdom of God and they are blessed.
What it all really boils down to is not how much one puts stock in a vertical relationship with God or Gods, but what horizontal relationship with have with each other and the planet.
Would I vote for an atheist president? Absolutely. No doubt about it. Of course, everyone should be seen as individuals and judged accordingly, but someone’s lack of belief in a higher power is not connected to who they are ethically or morally. And the opposite is true as well.
getreal
Religion does not make people do bad things. Some people do bad things and the rationalize their bad behavior on religion. There have been bad people who were atheists too.I think when people start talking about which beliefs need to go you are getting into mind control or conversion neither of which I believe in. Why not just believe what you choose and let others believe what they choose if you feel the need to blame things on people that they have not done or feel the need to say that people who think different than you are stupid than you are probably a fundamentalist. Well adjusted people don’t need to make the whole world think the way they do.
Allan
@ Getreal No. 242:
Good one! A mere whisper of anti-atheism! Way to go!
I agree with your opinion that our faith or lack thereof should be based on our values, not whom we choose to hate or fear.
I disagree with your idea that to state the fact that “the Catholic church” came in second to the Mormon church in donating money to pass H8 is inaccurate, or that it demonizes all Catholics.
I’d guess that every gay person probably knows that the Pope and all of his officials and the Catholic church “officially” choose to be anti-gay in almost every way, but that not every Catholic follows the orders of the Pope or his officials.
Doesn’t change the fact that hundreds of thousands, nearly millions of dollars came from the Catholic church on its leaders orders to support H8 in Calif., the same way as with the Mormon church leaders’ orders.
getreal
@kevin (not that one): I respect your opinion. Would I vote for an atheist President? Yes if i believed he was the right man for the job. What i don’t believe in is separating people’s value by their religious beliefs I judge people on their actions and theirs works not where they choose to go or not go on Sunday. I don’t believe in judging people based on their race,sex,sexual orientation or religion that is how I was raised and everyone has a right to believe differently.
Allan
Wow. Just wow.
Allan
My wow was for No. 244 · getreal
And he/she was doing so well that I even made a point to compliment.
getreal
@Allan: It is none of my business what you choose to believe (I’m saying that for the 30th time) and you won’t find one post here criticizing atheism just people trying to make their beliefs other people’s beliefs. I get it if I don’t want to believe exactly what you believe and think exactly what you think I’m against you and your enemy if that is how you think it is your right it is however not a very opened mind of view to not respect other people’s right to believe differently than you. I noticed you ignored my question of what work you are actually doing for marriage equality. I would bet nothing. As you criticize the amount of money donated to the no on Prop 8 campaign I wonder how much you donated. Imagine how much good you could do if you concentrated on your life instead of trying to convert people to your belief system. There have been so many organization that have come out of the Prop 8 defeat maybe California needs a Atheists for Equality that could outreach to the atheist community if that is your area of expertise you could use it to fight inequality not people on the same side as you.
getreal
@Allan: Thanks for the compliment I meant what I said about you have an area of expertise that could help the campaign. Why fight amongst ourselves why not fight homophobes and the Christian fundamentalists who don’t even think you have a right to your beliefs.
Bob R
@queer atheist: You are spot on. I, too, am so sick of people making excuses to be tolerant of these religious loons. I firmly believe as Diderot stated: “Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”
TANK
@getreal:
So it’s okay for you to play the martyr card with your religion by accusing me and anyone who disagrees with you of some kind of fascism, but when someone points out your double standard…not okay….that’s consistent.
TANK
And I am under no obligation to believe any religious belief or set of them. Tolerate is a different story, but that toleration ends when those fairytales impact the lives of others in an unethical way.
TANK
@TANK:
What I meant was respect or accept those beliefs. I don’t “respect” them in terms of accepting them as epistemically warranted as any other belief, or equivalent.
TANK
@getreal:
Of course religion makes people do bad things. Islam causes the wholesale slaughter of gay people in Iran. Prop h8? Religion. Untold horrors unfolded throughout the bulk of the mormon faith’s history (inflicted upon women and native americans, even) as a direct result of their religious beliefs. Many a catholic is antigay because of their catholic faith. This is simply nonsense to contend that religous beliefs don’t cause people to do unethical things…history is not on your side.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You still haven’t answered my question.
Do you believe there is no God?
Actually you do try to pass your atheism off as empirical – since looking at the natural world gives no evidence of God atheism is a natural empirical way of seeing the world, free of any belief system. You see religion as an dogmatic, irrational alien state.
Funny thing is, I believe you are probably right about the existence of God. But for all your assertion that you have no belief, your position has all the trappings of a a very desperate and fiercely-guarded dogma.
If your system were not belief why would you care at all what others believe (yeah I know, they do bad things to you)? But it is more than that. You truly ridicule them. Again, if your position is not a belief system, then why do you have so much attachment to it? I sure don’t.
The difference is I realize that belief in the supernatural has always been a part of the human psyche and experience and it always will be, and trying to separate it and brand it an unnatural state is the most illogical part of your argument. Removing belief from society and history makes about as much sense as speculating how a person might live without a heart. If it were not god it would be horoscopes or lottery tickets.
And the notion that conversion and convincing are somehow different things is just a way of dancing around the fact that your kind of atheism is a very dogmatic, vulnerable and desperate variety.
Tell me that a man who saw his friends blown apart in war and had all faith burned out of him was “convinced” like it was a polite conversation over tea. Nonsense. That kind of conviction, negative or positive, comes from the heart, not the intellect. It is nothing short of a shocking change in world-view.
Allan
No. 251 · getreal
“I get it if I don’t want to believe exactly what you believe and think exactly what you think I’m against you and your enemy if that is how you think it is your right it is however not a very opened mind of view to not respect other people’s right to believe differently than you.”
Hey! Hey! Hey! Read every word I wrote here and you will not find the word “enemy” anywhere. You will not find me saying that you are my enemy, even if you feel victimized. I said nothing of the sort about you or anyone here.
As you say, “If that is how you think it is your right however not a very opened mind of view to not respect other people’s right to believe differently than you.”
I understand what you are saying there, but once again, what you see in the mirror is yours, not mine.
You are way out of line to challenge me regarding my gay equality activities. Do not question my commitment. I will not be “proving” anything of the sort to you here, with a listing of what I’ve done in my 54 years to advance gay equality in this country. I’m not sure what you’re looking for here, but you are stomping up and down on thin ice.
Allan
BTW, I know several anti-atheist religious supremacist bigots. That does not mean they are all my enemies, if that was what you referred to. It is merely a statement of fact. Some of those people are in my family, and I love them.
TANK
You still haven’t answered my question.
Because it’s gay.
Do you believe there is no God?
Depends. Do I actively believe that there’s not a blue triangle in the corner when I actively believe that there’s a red triangle in the same corner same spot at the same time? No. I believe that unnecessary suffering is real; it exists, etc. This rules out my belief that the abrahamic god exists in the same way. So no, I do actively believe that unnecessary suffering exists, and this entails that god does not exist. Do I believe, though, that god does not exist like I believe that unnecessary suffering does? Of course not; they’re two separate beliefs.
Or, I could say…depends on if it’s the abrahamic god or some vaguer theism or theology…or religion…like these gods
http://www.geocities.com/thewitchescircle/biggg.htm
In which case there’s not a logical possibility that the abrahamic god exists, so I’m a positive or hard atheist with respect to that, but a negative atheist (lack belief) in the rest.
Actually you do try to pass your atheism off as empirical –
Do you even know what that word means? Once again. “One shouldn’t believe in a miracle unless its denial would require belief in a greater miracle” or more miraculous explanation (Hume’s Maxim). Miarcle here would be anything that defies the laws of physics, or scientific explanation. That’s because rationality is defined as proportioning belief to the evidence…oy.
since looking at the natural world gives no evidence of God atheism is a natural empirical way of seeing the world, free of any belief system. You see religion as an dogmatic, irrational alien state.
It gives evidence against god, actually. Suffering, both human and natural evil. Further, why should I believe something for which there’s no evidence for, nor the possibility of evidence? I shouldn’t. At least I’m not a noncognitivist; then you (clearly a religious weirdo), wouldn’t have a foot to stand on. See, if there’s no difference (tangible difference) between god existing and god not existing…what could god possibly mean? Nada. (I don’t agree as I’m not a logical positivist/verificationist).
Funny thing is, I believe you are probably right about the existence of God.
No you don’t. You’re full of it. You’re an agnostic, if anything.
But for all your assertion that you have no belief, your position has all the trappings of a a very desperate and fiercely-guarded dogma.
And what is that?! That I believe in justifying beliefs about the external world with evidence? That I believe that NO empirical belief is safe from falsification and revision? Where’s my dogma?
If your system were not belief why would you care at all what others believe (yeah I know, they do bad things to you)? But it is more than that. You truly ridicule them. Again, if your position is not a belief system, then why do you have so much attachment to it? I sure don’t.
I ridicule unethical belief systems. If they weren’t toxic and harmful, I wouldn’t care…because they’d be harmless. They aren’t, however. I don’t have any problem with jains other than the fact that they believe in a bunch of crap…jainism is absolutely harmless…they’re fine with me.
The difference is I realize that belief in the supernatural has always been a part of the human psyche and experience and it always will be,
No, you’re wrong. There’s nothing necessary about it. I don’t care if it’s always been a part of the psyche or belief hierarchy and system of human beings; that doesn’t justify the existence and continuance of toxic faith.
and trying to separate it and brand it an unnatural state is the most illogical part of your argument.
It’s not unnatural. It’s highly irrational, and there’s no need for it…it initially emerged as a way to make sense of the chaos of reality. A causal explanation to order our perceptions in a way we could handle and rely…but now we have better causal explanations that don’t rely on fictional entities.
Removing belief from society and history makes about as much sense as speculating how a person might live without a heart.
SO sexism is vital to our species, too? SUrely sexism has been around at least as long as religion…lol!
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Well if it’s a gay question I think we’re in a safe enough place for you to give me a straight answer. I know you have given me a hypothetical “yes” in the past.
I’m not have a big book under my ass like you, but I am aware that empiricism is an understanding of the world based on physical evidence, and experience.
And since you mention suffering as a proof that there is no God, I seem to remember some fellow recommending I read Platinga, and then saying I shouldn’t because I wouldn’t understand it (perhaps it was actually because he remembered the thesis argued against his own position on suffering and god).
I’m not going to engage any of your other points on religion because your bias is irrational. If you say that no good can possibly come from religion yet is it responsible for all destructive acts done in its name then there’s not much room for debating with you, is there?
Even most atheists will acknowledge that supernatural belief is fairly hardwired into our society, for good or ill, even though individual atheists exist. Again, if you don’t see that there’s nowhere to go with this discussion. But good luck purging the world of it anyway.
And sexism? Come on man, you are reaching low, though not as low as you did when you registered my name and impersonated me.
strumpetwindsock
ooops… “I don’t have” not “I’m not have”
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
So you haven’t read what I wrote. And no, you shouldn’t read plantinga, but if you could grasp lame argument, I can easily refute it.
strumpetwindsock
Nope. I read all of it.
But I realize there is no budging you on this, though contrary to what you may think it is not because of your towering logic.
TANK
You call me dogmatic/irrational but can’t back it up with anything that I wrote. How about an argument instead of the world according to Papa Smurf? This new god gene number you’re pulling is funny.
I did recommend that you read Plantinga, if only to get a proper response…
TANK
@TANK:
And I recommended that you don’t read it because it’s technical, and lends itself to confusion if read by a neophyte. Unless, however, you’ve got an understanding of a little elementary modal logic.
HeteroDefenseLeague
I see the Chrisitian bashing heterophobic hate mongering homosexist, ignorant, mean spirited, sexist, intolerant, fascist, wrong headed, discriminatory, extremist whacko hHomosexual Agenda manifesto thumping, child recruiting and brainwashing nazi pedophile bigots are out and about again….
vernonvanderbilt
@HeteroDefenseLeague: You’re being lazy again. I know you could have thrown a few more adjectives in there. You’re not trying hard enough.
But I still love you. Long time.
anderson cooper is my future husband
Doesn’t anyone see that this Heteroleague guy is Bill Perdue. They have the same theme in every post only opposite and they never are on here at the same time. Isn’t it weird that the two craziest trolls on the site write the same kind of crazy crap and never talk to each other but go nuts on everyone else. This heteroleague guy is an invention of Bill Perdue even crazy ass gay haters aren’t this nuts.
vernonvanderbilt
@anderson cooper is my future husband: I can’t say with any certainty that they’re the same person, but if ol’ Billy did come up with this, he’s a genius. Though, to be fair, I do know some gay haters who truly are that nuts.
Allan
@No. 268 · HeteroDefenseLeague
Sure! We’re out to play with the atheist-bashing, homophobic, hate-mongering, heterosexist, ignorant, mean-spirited, sexist, intolerant, fascist, wrong-headed, discriminatory, extremist, wacko, Neo-Christian Nationalist manifesto thumping, child-abusing and brainwashing, Neo-Nazi, pedophile bigots like you!
Allan
Yes, I plagiarized some of it because … well, okay, I’ll admit it — I can’t compete with the original.
Jonathan
@LoRdOrEo: Because Christianity isn’t about any one thing, let alone “love”. It’s been a state religion. It’s caused wars (crusades, 30 year’s war, etc.), massacres (St. Bartholomew’s Day), genocides (think the conquest of Latin America), religious persecution (ever wonder why Jews lived in Ghettos thhoughout Europe?), and on and on.
I’m sorry, but anyone who says Christianity is about “love” is the one who is misunderstanding the religion.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Jonathan:
I’m as anti-religion as the next person BUT it wasn’t christianity itself-the sect that started during the Roman times that was progressive and actually very communist in it’s conception BUT people who have caused this.
Christianity spread because people were so fed up with the Roman and Greek way of ruling which was very hierachy based and in fact, Christianity was the first religion/sect that included women to be part of it.
I mean what you are talking about is neo-christianity, which has been violently altered by humans during those times you’ve mentioned, though as pre usual, you Americans forget Africa, the West Indies or what the forefathers did in America. You can also include Australia there as well…
I mean Jesus was a Jew(not blond with blue eyes or even light brown hair with pale skin) went around helping people who were poor…why are these people even preaching in a church?? That wasn’t Jesus’s idea!?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
A schizophrenic genius!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@getreal:
I’m not sure if anyone answered you but erm, what do you think love is?
You can’t compare ‘God’ which has no proof of existence and ‘love’ a feeling that seeks animals/humans to care or look after child or partner.
God is part of a movement, it’s not part of our brain.
Believing in a ‘god’ is a stem of ‘Love’ in itself, as in it’s part of the euphoric senses that exist within your brain that seek you pursue these feelings of a higher being that is all good and pure.
A lot of these feelings of ‘feeling’ ‘God’ are somewhat redundant but I understand people NEED that to make them ‘fee’ good and ‘something’. They are trying to understand their neurological responses which are endormorphic like and because they have the personality that seeks leadership or something to worship instead of themselves, they believe of create a ‘god’.
The concept of seeing ‘God’ is very much linked to episodes, and mental disorders-it’s a fine line though..
It’s lazy but here’s a link re measuring ‘Love’.
http://www.physorg.com/news140272241.html
TANK
I have finally sliced my wrists. I shan’t be bothering any of you again with my childish and moronic garbage. Thanks for pushing me over the edge guys. A deathbed confession: Most of the postings were by me using aliases.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
“Do you believe there is no God?”
Yes.
But I understand people need to believe in something to make them feel a sense of ‘one’. I understand that humans are fundementally emotional and irrational.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@anderson cooper is my future husband:
He doesn’t sound like Perdue but TANK. The way he screams and writes..
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Actually I did respond to you regarding Platinga (and Mackie) in that thread a week or so ago. Perhaps you have forgotten.
http://www.queerty.com/searching-for-the-gay-jesus-20090410/#comment-145792
Sorry I didn’t have to do it with a bunch of three-dollar words, but I don’t find a conflict between a natural world of suffering and the existence of a supernatural realm.
The only people I know who envision a god who exists to keep their drinks topped up are those who have a serious misunderstanding of spiritual improvement – arrogant, self-centred “believers”, and atheists who see all belief as evil.
@Jonathan:
Perhaps, but remember that those militant and autocratic forms of religion turned on and wiped out many which were more progressive (the Albigensian Crusade being a major, but not the only one. Puritans executed Quakers in your country) and although there is certainly religious strife in other parts of the world, the eastern churches did not conquer and kill as the Roman Catholic Church did.
Virtually everything in those days was tied to religion. While a lot of discrimination was based on scripture, do you honestly believe that if religion did not exist there would be no xenophobia and no war? After all, the pope didn’t order the Bartholamew’s Day massacre, it was a political move by Catherine Medici to prevent her losing influence over the King. So how much of it was religion?
As well, although religion has been the foundation of much strife, it has also been the source of most social reform, as I already wrote. TANK has no grounds for his dismissal. The fact is religious groups drove the anti-slavery movement in Britain, much of the labour and anti-poverty movement, and (again, in Britain) the movement for constitutional democracy.
Again, while I think the British certainly overreacted in some ways, much of their history since 1500 was shaped by resistance to Roman Catholic excesses and autocracy.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Don’t just write that flippant response from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): to cover up the fact you DID register my name and post pretending to be me. It’s a serious breach of trust and I don’t think anyone in here would appreciate having that done to them.
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): That is pretty much my position as well (though I would say I am more agnostic).
As you may realize, I only framed the question that way because of TANK’s assertion that his atheism was not a belief system at all.
strumpetwindsock
…oops
I didn’t completely edit out where I mistakenly posted John’s link.
Should be “flippant response … to cover up the fact”.
MTiffany
I don’t know why these religious types think anal is so bad. They seem to enjoy trying to shove a Bible up everyone’s ass.
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Listen, you little cum bucket, you keep to yourself, and I won’t harass you. But if you accuse me of being that homophobic puddle of slop one more time, then a blood belching little cunt like you is gonna get served over and over and over again by me, relentlessly. I’ll enjoy it, too. You got all that, you filthy piece of shit?
As to bill perdue…alliteration, too.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
Fair enough.
I do think Queerty should do what Gawker do so you can see the IP adress of who’s replying etc and posting…it would stop some of these insane arguments but I guess it’s more expensive during this recession…
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
No, stupid, you didn’t respond to that intelligibly. YOu didn’t understand plantinga’s argument…you didn’t understand anything I wrote…you don’t get it.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Stop being so sweet you!
🙂
(whoever you are…)
TANK
Of course you don’t find a conflict between unnecessary suffering and god, strumpet. You don’t understand the arguments…this isn’t about intrepretation, you simply don’t get it…at all.
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
ALright, you fat little troll…it’s on.
TANK
The only people I know who envision a god who exists to keep their drinks topped up are those
You are a christian bible thumper. I don’t care how much you lie to deny it. You’re an agnostic believer. No one would confuse genocide, starvation, the death of nonhuman animals through, say, forest fires (slow death), the rape and murder of children and adults…the history of humanity written in the blood of the tortured, suffering, dead and dying…no one would confuse that with “god keeping their drinks topped off” but a religious fundamentalist wackjob like you. And that’s exactly what you are. This conversation, and all our future exchanges, are over…you are a fundamentalist crazy christian, and there’s no reasoning with you.
Jonathan
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I’m not sure it is possible to separate Christianity from what it has become… the idea of a return to the “primitive” church is, I think, illusory. After all, we cannot really know what the character of the primitive Church was, except through its writings and other historical accounts — and quite a lot of Paul is anything but warm or fuzzy.
Oh… and I didn’t forget the genocide of Native Americans or the enslavement or genocide of Africans by the people and government of the US… just tried to choose some, not all, examples of what I was talking about.
getreal
@MTiffany: Who said religious people don’t like anal not true. Religious bigots say they don’t but probably do in private ha-ha.
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): In my experience Tank is completely rational and able to debate (unless you call his religion a religion) while Bill Predue is bonkers I will have to compare writing styles. Oh and if you read through the thread I never compared God and love I was making an analogy that there are things that exist that are not tangible like love or faith.
@strumpetwindsock: I find the reason given that there is no God because of suffering really stupid I mean it is too dumb to even pick apart. I don’t want to argue as this seems like a thread that is going in an interesting direction.
Andramata
Everyone is a God manifested in you! If someone could tell me they saw and spoke to God then I’ll believe he/she exist. ALL Religion was created to control people. Moses went up there and said God wrote on these stones. Because he needed a way to control all the people that was traveling with him. If Noah and his family were the only people alive after the flood then why do we have Asian, Latin, and blacks? Exerts from the Bible which was written BY MAN and written in “sin” before Christ is not the all true. Yeah You can’t be gay but you could be a pedophile! You can’t commit sodomy but you could marry and have sex with many women including your family.
Haven’t we learned from the pastor before? The ones that stole all the money from the faithful. the one’s that got caught doing things to little boys? And that is a fact across every religion out there. People still sin but they are always the one to cast stones. Those pastor have nice cars live in the best house and they are taken your money every Sunday because they speak the good word. If that was they case they should not have the need or want for material things. But yet you follow religion because you need to belong. Join a damn caucus or 4H club or a book club to feel belong. I love how you spend money to look good on Sunday and broke down the rest of the week. Because You have to look good to go to church. But you are sick and broke cause you gave the rest of the money to your pastor. And you gay christians. if you are happy then bring your lover to church and ask your pastor to marry you in front of GOD and on holy ground lets see how he reacts to that one. then tell me you are happy!
TANK
Don’t worry, getreal, you wouldn’t be able to beat that argument if you tried. However hard you tried…some of the best religious minds living and dead have tried to justify it, reconciling god with the existence of evil…and have failed on every count.
You can call it whatever you want, but what it means is…that until you can reconcile them and make them consistent with a third and fourth premise, you worship a sadistic psychopath.
TANK
@TANK:
And hence, can’t exist.
TANK
But I will say this in getreal’s defense: she has never lied about her active catholicism. That takes more integrity than its absence found in some people on this comments section who are proven zealots but refuse to be honest about their religious faith…lying and denying it.
kevin (not that one)
This article is very relevant to this discussion, but would probably piss Tank (whoever he is) off:
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2009/04/28/terry_eagleton/
“In trying to shoehorn anti-scientific hokum into schoolbooks, or wasting money and time on a “creationist science” that strives to prove that the Grand Canyon is less than 6,000 years old and that Noah, for reasons unknown, kicked T. rex off the ark, fundamentalists have become the mirror image of atheists. Unsatisfied with the transcendent and unknowable nature of the Almighty, they’ve stuffed and jammed him into a dinosaur diorama.”
“What the rationalist myth sees in the modern age are the tremendous advances made in curing disease and in increasing agricultural yield, which neither believer nor atheist wants to do without. It views Zyklon-B and the hydrogen bomb as momentary setbacks, if it notices them at all, and it generally avoids comment about the contradictory and confused economic system our allegedly liberal-humanist age has produced. It’s a system, as Eagleton sees it, that pretends to be entirely logical but produces a cruel and irrational result: the poor made poorer and the rich much richer. And what are the greenhouse effect and the melting of the glaciers, if not artifacts of the Enlightenment?”
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Jonathan:
Not just the US but the UK and France…all those missionairies…and what they are still trying to do..
I just think that it’s sad that Christianity has become this warped religion that is all about people wearing black and spouting the bible and all sorts of crazy behaviour…
@getreal:
Yeah but love is more tangible then faith, faith is make belief. It’s something that YOU wouldn’t even consider if it wasn’t for society and what you have to been taught.
Love? People always had endormophic highs or sense of looking after one child or partner..
I just don’t get why you christians just don’t say that you believe in the unbelievable but it makes you feel good…a bit like what Kevin had said.
God isn’t real. But the feeling of needed to feel sercure and believe is.
I tell you what faith I believe in which actually exists and is older then christianity et all..
Praying to the land and nature. We were monkeys and then we evolved moving from Africa to all around us. Through time nature has crafted and changed us, from our color skin to what we eat to the clothes that we were..all due to the inhabitants were we lived.
I get praying to the sun, or the sea or the land but due to our fucked up egos…christianity and the rest created the concept of religion, the concept of praying to a tangible god. A male. Something jusss like us.
How arrogant and embarrassing.
TANK
No, it doesn’t piss me off at all. Terry Eagleton is a literary critic who teaches english (lit crit), not a philosopher or a scientist. His grumblings about dawkins and dennett, etc., are largely just prose work, and don’t really address the arguments. In any event, he’s not a stupid man, and if one were interested in literary criticism his introductions are pretty good.
vernonvanderbilt
“Faith” and “love” are both measurable with modern technology, such as brain scans and the like. John from England pretty much explained that succinctly and effectively, so I’m co-signing him on that.
“God,” however, cannot be measured, at least at present, because most folks don’t have the first clue about its nature. Here’s a hint: if all you’re looking for is an external, separate intelligence somewhere in the Universe, you’re never going to find “God” (a term I genuinely dislike, but use in this context to provide a common vocabulary).
Here’s a question for the christians to answer, though, because I’m curious what they think: if, in the beginning, there was only “God” and the void…what did “God” make everything out of? What was the raw material it built the world and the Universe and trees and bees and stuff out of?
getreal
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I think people have a right to believe whatever they want if they want to worship a flower or a dollar I think it is up to them just how i was raised. I don’t really have a problem if people want to be atheists but they seem to have a problem with my wanting to not be. I always thought it was better to air on the side of personal freedom. Telling someone if they believe something different than you they are arrogant and embarrassing does not seem very open minded. What I believe shouldn’t embarrass you and why are you so invested in what other people believe anyway? Personally I am always interested in hearing the views of people who have different beliefs particularly religious beliefs as long as it does not get disrespectful. My point about love is that there are intangible things that can’t be touched or measured that are real. As much as I like to dialogue with people about their views I would never try to convert anyone I’m no missionary so don’t try to convert me. A person who is secure in their views should be able to espouse them without insulting other people’s faith or trying to convert them to their way of thinking.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt:
Faith” and “love” are both measurable with modern technology,
But no one said that God could be measured.
If you read through the whole thread that is a point I made yesterday.It was an analogy. One that although atheists think faith is silly it is provable. Why people felt the need to bring God into when I was talking about faith I’m not sure. Here is the post.
No. 99 · getreal
@TANK: when you said “Love is a physical phenomena that can be measured and described” that was interesting. Many people feel exactly that way about faith. A previous poster defended atheism by saying there is no empirical evidence of God. So I asked him to provide empirical evidence of love. Because based on his definition that only what is provable exists then love does not exist.
getreal
The true test of an open minded person is whether they can respect people’s differences. If you are so controlling that you feel the need to “fix” people who dare to have different views than you, you are not an open minded person.
TANK
Well, I understand that many believers think that the argument from design is compelling…it’s invalid, however. Further, they think there’s empirical proof for their faith…what they think and what is the case are two separate things. This isn’t about interpretation of what the word evidence means or any semantic game to, in effect, game the opposition. This is simple reality. There is no evidence. Science and religion are not the same…they’re not on the same playing field. One requires faith or belief without evidence (religion), whereas the other explicitly denies such a method for explaining things.
I don’t care, personally, what people believe so long as those beliefs remain harmless. Christianity has been proven and time again to not be a harmless set of beliefs. I don’t think it should be banned or any such strawman you’d likely use to martyr yourself, but I do think that measures should be taken to mitigate its effects. Like teaching classes on religious pluralism to grade schoolers. Survey classes on the world’s religions without endorsing any of them. It’s good from to understand these things, too, because religion plays a large part in the global economy and our society…so it can’t hurt for them to know these facts, but also it putting their own fairytale perspective…this can’t be done, it seems, with older people who are religious. They become dogmatic.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@getreal:
Have I not said that I understand the need to believe in something??
We are all intelligent people here, you wouldn’t be able to get a way with I believe just what I do an essay at University/college, so why now??
We’re all people who are fascinated by this phenomenom that is religion, so stop acting the victim.
TANK and Alan are the only ones who have been agressive in their response to religion, some of us have not. We are giving you facts and links, and therefore you should do the same but don’t try and pretend ‘god’ is real when he is a human manisfestation..
As a black person, ALL I’ve grown up is religion although I remember being 10 and saying to my Mum no more because I didn’t get why as a black person this was forced onto to me when it is a Jewish religion…
But my mum leaves and dies for God..jesus…it’s something I have researched deeply as an African black person and I won’t stop but I do realise after reading countless Afro American literature that ‘it’s a way of life’, ‘it’s all they have’..
It’s just a pity because before Christianity came to Africa, people believed in nature, the land and had such respect and awareness of the environment..
But as long as it makes you happy and you are doing good, which you are, I support and praise you but I will debate answers that I don’t feel are backed up..
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Oh TANK you can be so sweet and gentle. 🙂
kevin (not that one)
@TANK: I totally agree with that. Schools should not promote religion, but it’s important for children to learn that religion is a strong motivating factor for most of humanity and they should learn the differences between religions as well as learning about atheism as an alternative to belief in the supernatural.
Of course, we should also put much more emphasis on science (and totally ban any and all “Intelligent Design/Creationist” garbage from the public school curriculum.)
getreal
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I’m not playing a victim and im trying to be respectful I just think it is childish to try to push everyone to think the way you do. Even feeling embarrassed by how other people think. It is just not heathy to be so invested in other people’s. I have my own identity I don’t need to try to make my identity other people’s identity to feel more secure myself which seems to be what you are trying to do. If religion was shoved down your throat as a child that is too bad maybe that explains why you are trying to shove your current views down other people’s throats. It all goes back to how we are all raised. I was raised to respect other people’s point of view and to never criticize a person’s faith which is why I believe people can think whatever they want and don’t feel personally invested in other people’ faith.
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Learn some respect, John. Respect for other people’s religious beliefs and values… Stop attacking…just accept Jesus and read your bible. And then, learn how to mount a proper argument, because none of this amounts to anything more than your opinion that religious beliefs are false.
getreal
I also don’t believe in religion being taught in schools except as it relates to history. I am totally against prayer in schools or the 10 commandments being displayed in governments buildings. I think religion should be a personal and family matter I think it is silly and desperate to try preach your gospel to others (whether you are a Baptist or an atheist) like you definitively know all the mysteries of the universe and you can FIX everyone from making them think exactly the way you think. Scandals of the past and present show the people trying the hardest to control people’s faith or lack of faith are usually the people who are doing the most wrong.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal: Believe me, I did read the whole thread. I knew someone had said that, but couldn’t find the specific post again. That kinda happens when an article passes the 300 comments mark. 😉
Feel free to take a break from the argument to answer the question I posed, though, if you like. I’ve never been able to get an honest answer on it from a christian. I don’t have an agenda beyond my own curiosity, I assure you.
TANK
@getreal:
Okay, you don’t understand what I wrote, and don’t know what you’re talking about. Par for the course.
Love is a physical phenomenon. Do you understand that? God is not a physical phenomenon. It doesn’t matter if people think that there’s empirical evidence for their beliefs; there is not. We haven’t spotted god in the hubble telescope, and given what god is according to your faith, that would be logically impossible.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@getreal:
Good for you. So was I which is what I was doing. Which is what some of us were all doing, so maybe you should go back and link that statement to the people who were disrespecting you?
If you saw my statements above, I all ALWAYS saying it’s a personal thing, that helps people no?
So yey! We’re in agreement all along!
@getreal:
It’d be really cool if you could say this stuff to black churches and stuff that are always preaching and telling people they should be gay, will go to hell or are wrong for leading a life that isn’t conformist.
You’d do a lot of good cause all this anger within the Afro American community towards gays is really fucked up, esp withthe number of AA kids who need education and support or mentoring, y’know?
That speech is for them more then us who are simply intelligently debate the concept of faith or love or religion!
TANK
surely you can imagine something just popping into existence, vernon. Well, christians believe that things always were to actualize or he created it ex nihilo. It is conceivable, at least; and therefore, perfectly coherent.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@vernonvanderbilt:
Dude, y’know right?? We’ve been soo frigging respectful and nice!
Odd…
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
You need to stop being so disrespectful of other’s beliefs. It’s rude and tells everyone how little class you actually have. Accept Jesus and read your bible.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: Truthfully, I can imagine something just popping into existence. I don’t necessarily say I believe it happens, but I can imagine it. My interest in the question stems from what I mentioned before, that I have yet to get a christian to answer it. I already know what I believe, but I like to know what others believe as well. It certainly makes dialogue easier.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
And that’s hilarious darling. No, I’m not a Christian. I just don’t feel I have to keep a gun under my pillow to protect myself from them (oh silly me… you don’t HAVE a gun, do you?).
Perhaps you should have posted my full quote in which I say rabid atheists and fundamentalists both have a flawed understanding of SPIRITUAL GROWTH in that they imagine a God which exists solely to magically serve us.
And so far your evil=nogod theory is based on nothing but your own say-so. I know that’s what your intuition tells you, but you have no proof whatsoever. The natural world is filled with things that seem nasty and painful, but which are in balance, and much of why that is so is beyond our understanding (whether there is a conscious design or as I believe, not). If there were no nasty diseases we would (as we often have) breed until we outstrip our resources and starve to death. Nasty? Yes, but if there is a God, who is to say that that is not part of a hard lesson for us. After all, we learn nothing by having our needs magically fulfilled. We have to learn to live within our limits.
Likewise evil deeds. Many believe that we could not understand what it is to do good if there were not hardship and evil in the world. Seems simple to me.
But go ahead and tell me I am stupid and that I do not understand anything you have said. It does not change the fact that you have not proven any connection between the state of the world and the existence of God. You’re just expecting us to believe it on your say-so.
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
You can check out the exchange in the recent Hillary Clinton/Iraq thread. Part-way down the page TANK starts insulting someone with my name, except it’s in all-caps. Hasn’t happened since that I have noticed, but feel free to draw your own conclusions.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Yes you are a christian. You evade the argument and suggest that unnecessary suffering doesn’t matter..minimizing it to “god not keeping our drinks topped off”. YOu’re a sociopathic christer. There’s no way around it.
TANK
And again, you don’t understand…the argument…you don’t get it…don’t comprehend…don’t follow…so obviously you don’t have a response to it.
getreal
@TANK: I guess you were being sarcastic with John. Open your self up to the possibility that someone can believe differently than you and still deserve just as much respect as you do. This seems like a mundane lesson i remember learning it as a child but i guess some of us weren’t. I do believe TANK that the way you treat people who are different from you is indicative of the amount of self-respect you possess. That is why when I have to confront antigay zealots as an activists i don’t hate them or feel the need to be as evil to them as they are to me. They dislike people for their differences and feel the need to force others to their way of thinking which to me is indicative of a weak mind. A person secure in their views does not need to try to mold everyone else’s life and views to match their own. Why not just enjoy people’s differences? I am fascinated by atheism unfortunately I have never had any opportunity to learn anything about it because atheists are so busy trying to explain how my views are stupid they never seem able to explain what their own views. So far even on this thread atheism seems to be “Anyone who believes differently than us is stupid” southern baptists feel the same way but at least they can explain their other beliefs.
TANK
God doesn’t have to exist to magically “serve us” to…have effortlessly avoided the holocaust…or the suffering of animals who clearly don’t deserve it…you unethical christer. You are a foaming at the mouth christian, desperately attempting the worst theodicies.
TANK
and it’s funny that you wrote “magically” serve us…when the entire notion of omnipotence is based upon magic…you fundotard, strumpet…
getreal
@TANK: I think it is unfortunate that you feel the need to get so personal with people just because they have a different perspective so stumpetwoodstock is a sociopath because he won’t believe exactly what you want him to believe. What happened to free thought? People are not dolls for you to control they have their own right to their own opinion. Why is that so hard for you to understand.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: I have to know I’ve wondered for months. What the hell does your name mean LOL?
TANK
Many believe that we could not understand what it is to do good if there were not hardship and evil in the world.
And they’re wrong. I can conceive of world in which little girls are raped and beaten to death…can’t you? I think we could understand this is wrong…even if it never happened…just like we can lotsa things that have never happened. Just like we could understand what sweet tastes like without tasting sour, or have the concept of left independently of right. Logically, they mean different things, and obviously, don’t depend upon each other if that’s true.
Even if that false statement were true (lame christer apologetics, strumpet…you really need to come clean and admit that you’re a TRUE BELIEVER), who cares if we didn’t understand what good meant? Is that worth the cost of, say, world war I and II, hiroshima and nagasaki? I don’t think so…but you, a sociopath, probably does.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: Magic is real, but it’s not what you think it is.
TANK
@TANK:
ARE NOT RAPED AND BEATEN TO DEATH
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
That’s right. I personally don’t think that what david blaine is magic…
TANK
@TANK:
does
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: I can elaborate if you wish, but I’m not looking to argue the point. It just needed to be said because I don’t think anyone else here would.
strumpetwindsock
@vernonvanderbilt: @vernonvanderbilt:
The current scientific model is that the universe DID just pop into existence. Although there’s plenty of evidence, there is still a great mystery surrounding the big bang (and no, I am not saying I believe it was a conscious act).
What was the universe before the big bang (since time and space did not exist beforehand)? Why did it happen? What about the great mass of black matter in the universe that we know exists, but we cannot see?
I know plenty of Christians who accept the bible but believe many f the stories are allegory, not literal truth, so I don’t think you need to get an answer to that one from all Christians, just the literalists (though they have an easy answer – God can do whatever he wants).
Though for allegory sometimes spiritual text can be remarkably accurate – the myth of Brahma and the creation and destruction of the universe, for example.
TANK
@getreal:
No, strumpetwindsock is a sociopath because he thinks that the holocaust and people being tortured to death, and an omnipotent, perfectly good and all knowing god who could easily have created a world in which that didn’t occur…amounts to “topping off our drinks”. He’s an immoral person…more than that, he’s a sociopath.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
I don’t believe in magic. But, if you can…pull a bunny out of hat…I’ll give you a tip.
getreal
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): My area of expertise in activism is outreach to people of color and to churches. I have done canvassing, phonebanking, and outreach to all kinds of people and i have found the easiest people to make understand the inherent evil of anti-gay legislation are people of faith. Generally the difference in activism between a person of faith who has a change of heart and a non-believer who has a change of heart through education is that a persons of faith’s next question will be “how can i help”.
The Gay Numbers
I find this conversation amusing. Both sides are essentially trying to prove or disprove what can not be proven or disproved. I am a sci fi geek. Let’s say there was a supreme being. How would we even know? Even if it created this universe, it still may not be a god, but instead employing science. Far out there? Sure. But that’s the pointof how silly this can all become. People should believe what theyw ant, and everyone should let them beleive it so long as they do not enact those beliefs into law.
TANK
I find this conversation amusing. Both sides are essentially trying to prove or disprove what can not be proven or disproved.
That’s your religious faith.
vernonvanderbilt
@strumpetwindsock: I know what the current scientific model says. However, the one you speak of is not the only one. Some scientists believe the big bang came about as a result of a “big crunch,” if you will, of a previous incarnation of the Universe. I know some recent research has brought that particular model into question, but the fact remains that we still don’t know exactly what happened in the first few (some prefix that I forget at the moment, but really, really tiny)-seconds of the Universe’s existence.
And yes, sometimes allegories are shockingly accurate. Too many people write them off because they don’t use scientific language, but there are nuggets of wisdom in there if you know how to look at them.
@TANK: Like I said, magic isn’t what you think it is.
getreal
@TANK: No Tank I’m not trying to prove or disprove anyone’s beliefs I’m just saying treat other people with respect even if they feel differently than you and stop trying to convert people. Don’t have temper tantrums if people choose to believe differently. This is not a play you are not the director and we are not actors this is real life were people control themselves. I think things would be easier for you if you stopped trying to tell everyone what to think and just concentrated on yourself
TANK
Well, if we take the bible as allegorical, and not literal (has no clear meaning at all), then anything is up for grabs and it has no meaning at all. People who advocate that position are basically giving up the ghost, and can’t debate one way or the other as to existence or nonexistence of god or about one meaning or another in the bible. Good for them, though.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
Does it involve magic cards?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I know how I see the world.
If your view is so warped and vulnerable that anyone who sees things a bit differently than you (or who has a bit more tolerance for peole than you) is an “unethical christer” or “foaming at the mouth” there’s nothing I can do about it.
I just don’t know why you get so worked up about something that you claim isn’t actually a belief at all.
TANK
And which is a more plausible scenario? That the big bang occurred, and “before” it, perhaps different laws of physics existed or the extra unnecessary hypothesis that a 3-O world creator engineered it and everything else when clearly…it didn’t have to be that way, and we only have evidence for what did occur–not evidence for that.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@getreal:
Thats cool.
@The Gay Numbers:
“People should believe what theyw ant, and everyone should let them beleive it so long as they do not enact those beliefs into law.”
Who said they shouldn’t?
People were trying to say God is real, I don’t believe that. I believe in the Big Bang and physics. And it’s bullshit to claim it can not be proved how we came about through science.
So the sheer fact that Christianity has DENIED this all along because of it’s own egotistical needs, have to be called out.
Faiths are moral ways that should support us lead a better life to not harm or cause chaos in the world. Something to help us be a better person.
getreal
@TANK:
“No, strumpetwindsock is a sociopath because he thinks that the holocaust and people being tortured to death, and an omnipotent, perfectly good and all knowing god who could easily have created a world in which that didn’t occur…amounts to “topping off our drinks”. He’s an immoral person…more than that, he’s a sociopath.”
That is not what he said and this is the second time you have made very out there accusations just because someone had a difference of opinion. I think if you are looking for someone to explain the Holocaust to you you will be disappointed it was an abomination and can’t be explained. I also don’t think it is a subject to discuss lightly as a debate tool. It is disrespectful. Just my opinion.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: It can if you like. For that matter, it can even involve rabbits and hats if you wish.
getreal
@TANK: Oh gosh not too get into a big bang theory argument but a lot of christians believe God made the big bang and set evolution in motion.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Yes, you see the world through the eyes of a sociopath. You have no way to reconcile the existence of both natural and human evil with the existence of the christian god (or muslim and jewish god, too). Instead, you assert that good can’t exist without evil without providing any argument for it, and appealing to ignorance. And then you make the foaming at the mouth christer apologetic that god doesn’t care about us or needn’t care enough about us to insure that the horrible things that happen to us, and could have been easily avoided by such an omnipotent and all knowing and perfectly good being…don’t. Your “defense” renders god, like you, a sadistic sociopath, not a perfectly good being. How dare minimize the actual suffering on this planet by sentient beings by equating it to god “giving us special treatment” or “making sure our drinks are topped off”. You’re disgustingly unethical, and you don’t grasp the argument from evil…at all. It sailed right over your head.
TANK
@getreal:
And we’ve got evidence for that, huh? WHat’s more plausible? What’s more likely? That no god did that, or that god did that? I’d say that no god is more likely. I think occam’s razor can dispense with needly hypotheses like that, and does quite well.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
And wands and top hats?
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: Yup. Or cheese slices, if that’s what you need.
getreal
@TANK: Well, if we take the bible as allegorical, and not literal..” Why do you need so badly to understand the bible? If it is all so silly why do seem so obsessed with it? Yet you seem hard pressed to tell anyone what you actually DO believe. It almost seems like your identity is very wrapped up in Christianity which is strange for an atheist.
TANK
@getreal:
No, he didn’t say that explicitly, but he basically said that god is under no moral obligation as a perfectly good being to create a world in which people never freely chose to harm each other, or in which tsunamis and diseases don’t decimate human populations…and that god’s a sociopath, then, not a perfectly good being–for it could have done that (omnipotent) and knew about it (omniscient), and would have done it if it existed as a perfectly good being.
STrumpet is a christer, and a wackjob.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
That’s not very magical.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You forgot to mention the bit about me torturing and eating babies.
@TANK:
And allegorical is not the same as being devoid of any meaning. An Allegory is a story which, although it is not entirely the truth, points out something which is.
Given that much of the Bible concerns ways in which people behave (good and bad) it makes sense that it would be written in allegory. Greek and Roman mythology is no different.
TANK
@getreal:
So are you saying that people shouldn’t try to understand the bible? Or that there’s nothing to understand? Well, the bible has caused some pretty ungodly things to happen, and I’m surprised I’d need to explain this to you…but not really. And that based upon literal understandings (or allegorical) of it.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: Like I said, magic isn’t what you think it is. For that matter, it isn’t what most people think it is. Magic is actually quite mundane in the grand scheme of things.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
YOu fail to comprehend again. If the bible isn’t to be understood literally, then nothing in it is to be understood literally…and it’s a free for all. It has no literal meaning, then, and nothing it says needs to be interpreted as having any literal meaning with a truth value attached to it. It’s then meaningless.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
Where do cheese slices fit into that scheme?
getreal
@TANK: Some people believe that terrible things happen to test people’s faith and bring them closer to God. Many people feel that Jewish people are Gods chosen people and he needed to call those people home to punish the world with their absence. We all have free will and are free to bad or good some people say that was the point.Free will that is a theme and religion and in our society. There are arguments on both sides of the issue and since this is a forum where people can’t even agree to disagree how can people share and learn from each other.
TANK
@TANK:
Further, if it doesn’t make literal sense with truth values added, then the interpretation of that allegory is up for grabs. It doesn’t have literal truth here and there, why not anywhere I wish? Whatever you want it to mean, it will mean. That indicates that it’s pretty meaningless to me.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: That depends on the whim of the acting magician. The actual point I was making is that you can use whatever props you want. They’re just window dressing, if you will.
TANK
@getreal:
I know they believe this. This is a very simple minded view. For if the holocaust happens to test people’s faith…then god is a sadistic pig, for clearly that’s not worth the price of entry and could have easily been avoided. And why would a person’s faith need to be tested by a god that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent? To praise him? He seems like a narcissistic devil, too.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
LIke a sandwich? Can you make a sandwich disappear?
getreal
@TANK: I’m saying that you as an Atheist who has a different set of beliefs does not need to understand the bible. If you believe it is all bunk why are you trying so hard to find meaning in something that you say is meaningless. You are starting to sound lost just searching for something anything to believe. I have not heard of atheist trying to get meaning from the bible you are starting to sound like a lapsed christian. Whatever you do please don’t become one of those born again people. They are annoying!
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: Only if I’m hungry, and the sandwich is a variety of sandwich I enjoy eating.
TANK
@vernonvanderbilt:
MAGIC!
getreal
@TANK: Well people of faith know that free will is part of being a human being man is responsible for the evil he does. It was man that created the Holocaust not God. God had nothing to do with it. Evil weak people who could not respect others differences murdered those people it has nothing to do with God.
TANK
@getreal:
Because I don’t start off by assuming that religious faith is false. This needs to be established through argument…
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I just find these conversations silly. They are unproveable. I guess I will just bow out.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: YUP!
getreal
If people want to believe in a cheese sandwich who cares sounds delicious right about now. I say bless anyone for their beliefs and differences!
TANK
@getreal:
And god could have created FREE BEINGS who FREELY NEVER CHOSE to do the things that are evil…and that doesn’t explain natural evil…like earthquakes and diseases…natural disasters galore. All could have been avoided if god actualized or created a world in which these things didn’t happen, and in which men didn’t choose to kill each other and rape and blah blah blah. There’s nothing necessary about AIDS, for example…if your god existed, aids surely wouldn’t.
getreal
You guys are making me hungry!
Andramata
I love the way you thins @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s)
Everyone,
You have a right to speak freely, believe in what you want freely, well in America at least. But you do not have the right to push your beliefs on another regardless of how strongly you feel about it.
people often follow people that say something to them that makes sense. Lost folks need to feel like they are a part of something.
Allan
[img]http://usqueers.com/st&r/arch/grfx/Stop_Evolving_Now.jpg[/img]
[img]http://usqueers.com/grfx/USOB,Inc__sm.jpg[/img]
[img]http://usqueers.com/st&r/arch/grfx/headinstreet.jpg[/img]
getreal
@TANK: Well I think that is childish we are human’s with free will not dolls in some huge doll house. No one is responsible for anything but their own actions. If you are looking for some skydaddy who will make everything perfect for you and give you a utopia. 1.That is never going to happen and 2. that is not christianity but a childish fantasy. Not to be mean but grow up.
vernonvanderbilt
@Allan: Love that first pic. Entirely too funny on a variety of levels.
getreal
@Allan: It is not too late to get involved in the marriage equality work being done in California Allan. Even if you did a lot in the past you can still do a lot in the future. You can’t get clean on yesterdays shower.
TANK
@getreal:
Not at all. We’re talking logical possibility here. And god could have created significantly free people who never choose to do bad things (though they certainly can choose this and do this…they don’t). Why didn’t he do that, being perfectly good and all? These aren’t robots or dolls…these are beings like you and I who never choose to do the wrong thing, but can if I they want. That was within god’s power…well, if god existed. And the cost of this freedom? Untold horrors…for what? To have the choice? The choice to praise him? That it? LOL! Narcissistic sadist, this god of yours.
getreal
Pictures of stupid people holding crosses does not insult Christians there are stupid people in every belief system but underlines the fact that ask an atheist about atheism and they fall silent they cannot explain what it is, what they believe. I have asked over and over with no answer. All they seem to believe is that Christians are stupid and deserve their scorn that is the set of beliefs that they build their lives on. My life is based on my beliefs not someone else’s beliefs being stupid.
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
I think I am about done too. He’s starting to get his non-beliefs mixed up.
I’m not even religious and he’s trying to give me shit for saying nasty things about God. Did he get converted while I was off getting that cheese sandwich?
TANK
I’ll call evil christer headquarters and let them know they got another one.
Besides, he’s still spinning on that evil and disease argument. Maybe TANK’s magical god (who doesn’t have to obey any rules of nature) should eliminate death too. Then things would be just wonderful… at least for the next 10 years until we realize what a fuckup it would be.
getreal
@TANK: You are not describing my religion but something you made up in your head. I’m starting to see that atheists on thread are mostly people who had religion forced on them when they were kids so they just hate christianity and are now forcing their religion (atheism) on christians as some kind of pay I hate you dad revenge. It is very interesting from a sociological standpoint. I’ve known many atheists and most could at least describe what atheism is.I think this whole thread is fascinating I always assumed Atheists would be more open minded but they are as attached to their dogma as much as the craziest christian fundamentalists.
TANK
Atheism isn’t a belief system. It isn’t a value system like capitalism…or anything else. It’s not a belief about the world even.
Here’s sam harris correcting misconceptions about atheism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4
Here’s sam harris on what atheism is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5zITiMtsww
TANK
@getreal:
Not your religion? So you don’t believe in a 3-O world creator…that’s what catholics believe…are you not a catholic, then?
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: It is actually disturbing that seemingly intelligent people who post such interesting things on other threads become completely unglued by the fact that they can’t convert people. It is disarming.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
So now god has to obey the laws of physics, too? The laws of physics that christians believe he created? That doesn’t sound omnipotent to me…or a being capable of performing miracles like say…disobeying the laws of physics. Sounds like a guy you’d meet having a stroll. Is that your god, you christer fascist?
TANK
@getreal:
I’m not trying to convert you. Once again, you can’t be coverted to atheism.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
So now disease and rape are justified by your appeal to ignorance? You’re a sick christer. God is not limited by such things, is he…not according to what god is defined as being by christians and jews and muslims. Perhaps you don’t know what omnipotence means.
getreal
@TANK: First of all nothing you described is my religion and why are you so desperate to become part of my belief system? Is there a hole in your life and belief system? Why are you hell bent on trying to attach your self to someone else’s beliefs or attach them to yours. I have a strong sense of self that is why I respect your right to your opinion and do not have the life or death attachment that you seem to have to “fix” people who are different than me or to have complete strangers to answers life’s questions for me. I think you should find your own identity then you would not be so wound up in what everyone else thinks.
getreal
@TANK: “I’m not trying to convert you. Once again, you can’t be coverted to atheism.”
Then stop trying. Believe what you believe let other believe what they believe just because your parents shoved religion down your throat and made you hate it does not mean you have to take it out on everyone else.
TANK
@getreal:
As I said, some beliefs cause harm. Certain strains of the meme christianity cause harm. Therefore, those people aren’t entitled to those beliefs.
TANK
@getreal:
I’m not trying to convert you. However, each time you attempt to defend your faith and christianity against what you perceive as atheism (which isn’t atheism), and malign atheism, you will get a response…or at least got a response. Perhaps I’m succeeding, though…if you think I’m trying to convert you. Why should I be obliged to sit idly by while you spout your religious beliefs and mischaracterize atheism when you aren’t?
getreal
@TANK: You said to Stumpet “You’re a sick christer. God is not limited by such things….”
Why are you preaching about God if you are supposedly an atheists? You seem confused brother just saying.
TANK
It seems that whenever someone even starts to discuss atheism around you, getreal, you immediately accuse them of proselytizing and trying to convert people, but whenever your faith is discussed ad nauseam, it’s just “freedom to believe what I want…” Freedom isn’t just for christians, getreal.
TANK
@getreal:
This is a deliberate red herring. Strumpet was imposing limitations on the definition of god’s omnipotence which are false. Given the definition of god and the christian understanding of that definition, I was pointing that out. That doesn’t mean that I believe in god, which I do not.
getreal
@TANK: I’m not trying to defend my faith against Atheism I’m try to get you to stop attacking stumpet for being a devil advocate (I don’t even think he is christian) and trying to push your beliefs on others. I have asked about 5 times what exactly atheism is so I would not mischaracterize it. Why can’t you explain it since you think everyone should subscribe to it?
TANK
@getreal:
Actually, you are, and you’re also maligning atheism with your fellow christer strumpet.
getreal
@TANK: If you are such an Atheist why are you so obsessed with God at all?
TANK
@getreal:
If he’s not a christian, then he shouldn’t have relied upon the most rudimentary and christian apologetics to defend his faith.
TANK
@getreal:
Because god causes harm, you see. the belief in the abrahamic god is not innocuous, but makes people do bad things. That’s my vested interest…like vot against marriage equality.
getreal
@TANK: You are wrong Tank and I think your anger is getting the better of you. I have read your posts before and i have never seen you act irrational. My constant them on this thread has been believe what you want and respect my right to believe what I want. I have repeatedly asked you to explain your beliefs and you are incapable. I have never maligned atheism just asked that you explain your views and not insult me if i choose to disagree. If you scan back through all my posts you will see that. If this is subject you can’t discuss rationally and you want to get all crazy fundamentalist i will just ignore you. An intelligent adult should be able to converse about their beliefs with insulting the intelligence and beliefs of others. An intelligent adult should be able to discuss their beliefs with different kinds of people with trying to make that person their enemy. If you can adhere to basic rules of adult conversation let’s proceed. Stop blaming others and insulting others beliefs what do you stand for? Can you answer what do you stand for? Can you speak on yourself and your beliefs? Are you capable because if you are I would be interested in reading that.
TANK
@getreal:
I and several others have explained to you what atheism is. I even posted a link by sam harris explaining it to you. You are now deliberately ignoring facts and posts. This isn’t honest of you.
getreal
@TANK:”Because god causes harm” You are an Atheist you don’t believe in God!If you are an Atheist then you believe there is no God therefore he can do no harm. Your own words just trumped your own argument. You seem confused…
getreal
@TANK: Oh I must not have seen the link what is the number of the post.
getreal
@getreal: Oh no I found it 336. What would Sam Harris think about you telling people God does harm when you are not even supposed to believe in God. Are you really an Atheist?
TANK
@getreal: @getreal:
He’d agree. Fairytales can apparently cause harm. Once again, this is petty obsfucation and deliberate mischaracterization of my words to attribute belief in god to me when nothing I’ve said in context could possibly lead you to conclude that.
getreal
@TANK: Just because someone believes differently than you does not make them your enemy. Do you know that?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I know what omnipotence is. I have no idea if it exists.
I don’t know why you are insisting on a god having omniscient properties, expecially if you have no such belief. It’s like arguing about how many reindeers santa has.
I have no idea if there is a god, or a supernatural realm or life after death, or nothing, but I don’t presume it is necessarily a choice between atheistic nothingness and the 20th century christian conception of god. Why should you insist I argue based on that conception. Maybe the Hindus are right. Perhaps those who believe in the world as one living Gaia are right. I do not know.
But whether there is or is not a supernatural realm I do believe this universe follows the natural laws of physics, and the limits of time/matter/energy. But IF there is a god or divine beings I don’t assume it/s/he/they have the power to break those laws or force living beings to behave in a certain way.
So I don’t know why you are playing devil’s advocate using the most fundamentalist conception of God – not everyone sees the divine that way.
@Allan:
Your first two pictures are funny. If you are amused at the third one it shows your lack of understanding of someone who has developed his mind and body far beyond where you and I are. It ain’t magic; it’s hard work and spiritual discipline.
TANK
@getreal:
Another strawman.
TANK
I know what omnipotence is.
Apparently not if you think an omnipotent being is limited by physical and temporal laws. Here’s a hint: anything logically possible, an omnipotent can perform.
I don’t know why you are insisting on a god having omniscient properties,
Omniscient properties? You mean the property of being all knowing, right? Well, I’m not insisting on it; it’s the traditional christian definition of god. That is what every christian believes–that god is all knowing…and all good…and all powerful…muslim and jew, too. That’s what god is defined as being in the bible.
expecially if you have no such belief. It’s like arguing about how many reindeers santa has.
Right, it is. I don’t believe in god, but I do believe that according to christians like you, god is defined as being omniscient.
I have no idea if there is a god, or a supernatural realm or life after death, or nothing, but I don’t presume it is necessarily a choice between atheistic nothingness and the 20th century christian conception of god.
Yeah, you have no idea. You don’t know…but you believe. That’s the only explanation for your reliance on popular christian apologetics (bad ones that I easily refuted, at that).
TANK
SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE? LOL!
getreal
@TANK: Just because someone is trying to be patient and respectful of your views does not make them a straw man. I understand some people have had hard lives and they walk around very defensive with a game face on assuming if someone tries to be nice to them they must be trying to cause injury. For all my foibles I can say that I don’t see every hand extended with respect as a hand ready to slap. My father always said “try to be more kind to others” it is a simple easy rule of thumb that can be exercised at any time. Some people think it is silly but rarely do happy people think it is silly.
TANK
@getreal:
No, deliberately mischaracterizing my assertions to discredit them makes it a strawman. In other words, what you did.
getreal
@TANK: I cut and pasted statements you made that is not a mischaracterization.They are your comments and I don’t anything Atheist would support an atheist saying God causes harm. Just typing that proves some belief or total confusion.You typed that. Be angry at yourself not me.
No. 403 · TANK
@getreal:
Because god causes harm, you see. the belief in the abrahamic god is not innocuous, but makes people do bad things.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: You are an enemy to him anything you type will be construed as an attack some people get nasty if they feel they backed into a corner. He obviously has some pretty big things to figure out in his own faith in atheism as he told me God does harm.
TANK
@getreal:
Just sticking by your guns here isn’t going to make your strawmen arguments and false accusations any less false and invalid.
It starts on the second sentence. Belief in the abrahamic god is not innocuous…not it isn’t…it causes harm.
And nowhere did I claim this:
“Just because someone believes differently than you does not make them your enemy.”
Another strawman. You’re not going to weisel out of it. How a little self respect and stop making false accusations and mounting strawman arguments. Try to win fairly.
TANK
@getreal:
One false accusation and strawman to discredit after another. You don’t seem to be able to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you any other way…you can’t win fairly…so you’ll cheat and lie.
getreal
@TANK: Yawn. I’m done I can’t argue with religious fundamentalists.I think you have a right to your beliefs you don’t think I have a right to mine. I cannot dialogue with that kind of narrow minded thinking.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
It may be what every christian believes (or not), but I’m not a christian.
The fact is you’re not talking with me at all. I just told you what I believe, yet you ignore my words and set up your own “strawman” because that’s an easy target for you.
Do I need to tell you again? I understand the meaning of the words omniscient and omnipotent. I do not, however believe in a supernatural realm that can just break the natural laws of the universe. Don’t try to tell me that I believe otherwise, because I’m not going there with you.
You have not proven your evil=nogod argument.
@TANK: Yes, spiritual discipline. Even you should be able to understand that a person can use meditation to train his or her body to do seemingly superhuman things. Maybe you should try a bit of yoga. It would probably chill you out better than whatever you’re taking now.
You could probably use it. All this “unethical fascist christer” ranting is REALLY making you sound like you want to be Bill Perdue’s Mini-Me.
Allan
[img]http://usqueers.com/st&r/arch/grfx/lovethineenemy.gif[/img]
@getreal:
Are you really as dense as you sound here? I think you aren’t but you are acting like you are trying to convince us you are.
You’ve been told clearly what atheism is and what it is not. You’ve been provided links. You’ve been provided at least two videos. You continue to say you haven’t gotten any response to your question of what is atheism. This is becoming nothing but an often-repeated lie, visible to anyone who takes the time to read this thread.
I say you are acting dense, not for your beliefs or your religion. I could not care less how you believe, but I do care about the beliefs of jackasses who profess to belong to the same faith as you … specifically like the jackass at the top of this page!
Are we supposed to just not talk about him and the christian bible he is waving around? Are we to overlook the fact that our biggest enemies in the world today are motivated by what they call belief in god? Are we supposed to just guess which religious person is willing to discriminate against or beat or kill gays and which is “only” willing to pass laws to make us permanently lesser citizens? No, thank you.
I will choose not to trust religious people until they prove they do not belong to that same “jackass” crowd. From the sounds of you here, you could very well be convinced to do horrible things to gay people jsut because somebody with enough religion told you that god told him that it was the godly thing to do.
You came on a board where the subject is the jackass in the religious clothing at the top of this page, who is waving a christian bible around threatening to start an “Armageddon” against gays. Why aren’t you focusing on him and his 100 pastors?
As a religious person who belongs to the same religion, you might want to denounce him, get a bit embarrassed that he dares to use the same book you use, except he’s using it as a weapon against gay people.
You might want to do that over and over and over, instead of continuously accusing atheists of having a religion, of trying to “convert” you, etc., because we dare to say things which you don’t agree with. You are trying to convert us, that’s why.
You could also use some of your time to call that jackass up and talk him out of what he’s doing. After all, you both belong to the same religion, surely he’ll listen to you when he would just write me off as a satanically controlled non-believer. Give it a shot!
I will continue to mock anyone who claims to belong to the same religion (Christianity, in all its forms) as that jackass, as well as Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, conservative Jews, Southern Baptists, and AME, BECAUSE they are all supporting and defending a monolithic religion, an enormous group of “church people” with their money and asses in the seats, and on boards like this, and they are aiding and abetting our openly declared enemies.
Unless you are the Pope or something equivalent, it doesn’t matter even a little bit what your personal opinions or single votes are, which obviously cannot overwhelm the enormity of religion-organized, uber-wealthy, no-tax-paying campaigns of anti-gay H8.
I will continue to stand toe-to-toe in the streets fighting these jackasses and other anti-gay bigots, as I have done for decades. I will mock them and rebuke them frequently, in word, sound and deed, and I will give it my best efforts.
Apparently, you are willing to get on your knees and pray for our redemption from those jackasses, and for our eternal souls.
You are willing to spend days attacking gay atheists and accusing them of things which aren’t even possible, which is not helpful to the cause of gay equality at all. Well, ain’t that just grand?
[img]http://usqueers.com/gop.comedy/grfx/real_americans_only!_bow_before_god.jpg[/img]
[img]http://usqueers.com/st&r/grfx/Statue_Lib_3583_sm_1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://usqueers.com/st&r/grfx/god_hates_you.jpg[/img]
[img]http://usqueers.com/st&r/grfx/gopher_mailer-bible_banned_gay_marriage_allowed.jpg[/img]
getreal
@Allan: I am not responsible for how stupid people use religion anymore than you are. And if you think insulting christian gay rights activists in some way hurts homophobic christian fundamentalists you are wrong. You are just being another hateful person in the world taking out your frustration on people who have done you no harm.If that is how you live your life so be it. If you need that kind of anger and malice to get you out of bed in the morning so be it it is what gets the people in your photos out of bed if you want to act like them be my guest. I will do everything i can to work to make the world better and treat others views and differences with respect. Feel free to hate whoever you want just not my thing.
TANK
It may be what every christian believes (or not), but I’m not a christian.
But it is. It’s in the bible. Can’t argue about definitions, or else I’ll just say it’s literally meaningless…if there are no set definitions and no criteria for being a christian. But once again, this is the officicial definition, and all christians believe it, and all muslims and jews (religious ones, anyway), too.
The fact is you’re not talking with me at all. I just told you what I believe, yet you ignore my words and set up your own “strawman” because that’s an easy target for you.
Because you defended your faith in god with christian apologetics. That sounds like someone who believes in god…and is christian. You can be an agnostic and a christian, and you are.
Do I need to tell you again? I understand the meaning of the words omniscient and omnipotent.
Clearly not, for you clearly stated that an omnipotent being is limited by physical and temporal laws.
I do not, however believe in a supernatural realm that can just break the natural laws of the universe.
Christians do. Christians believe that god created the universe, get it? He “CREATED” it… He CREATED the laws of physics. Before he “created” them, they did not exist, or weren’t actual.
Don’t try to tell me that I believe otherwise, because I’m not going there with you.
No, you’re telling me what you believe and I’m repeating it back to you.
You have not proven your evil=nogod argument.
Of course I have. You don’t understand it, though…just like you don’t understand what the word omnipotence means, nor that the christian god is a 3-O world creator. You’ve never really read anything about the philosophy of religion, or probably even the bible…you don’t know what the debates are or what atheism is…out of your depth, clearly. Your christian faith is causing you to bury your head in the sand and defend it against it with the worst christian apologetics (patently invalid arguments) that you can come up with.
You could probably use it. All this “unethical fascist christer” ranting is REALLY making you sound like you want to be Bill Perdue’s Mini-Me.
Ad hominem. You are a christer.
TANK
@getreal:
But you are responsible, for you support them indirectly no matter how much you voice your opposition to their beliefs, you justify your own the same way they justify theirs (faith in god and belief in the bible)…that gives them legitimacy for it legitimates the source that they derive their legitimacy from. Also, do you give money to the church? Because guess where that money’s used? SOme good, lotta bad.
TANK
@getreal:
Now this will be the umpteenth time that atheism has been defined for you. Are you going to continue to dissemble and ridicule, mischaracterize and deflect or try to engage in the discussion honestly and productively?
getreal
@TANK: You sound just like a group of europeans I encountered who heard my accent in a cafe in Paris last year blaming me for George Bush killing kids. “You are an American so you are responsible” they screamed at me they were wrong. I am not responsible for anyone’s actions but my own and i do a lot in my life to try to improve the world. I will not accept people’s misplaced anger it is simply not my job it slides right off my back.
TANK
@getreal:
I guess not. More strawman arguments and ad hominems and false accusations…
Allan
@getreal:
Your words in that last post about yourself (No. 424) are so pretty and sweet and considerate, you paint yourself as the Mother Teresa of gay christianity.
Unfortunately for you, your nastiness toward gay atheists on this board — for example, your refusal to even acknowledge that you choose to continually disrespect atheists in almost every single one of you many posts by using religious language to describe what they say and do — let alone your refusal to cease and desist using that language, which is closely related to language used by evangelical christians in “discussions” with gay people, will demonstrate your disrespect amply.
I’ll stand by everything I’ve said here, I’ve not tried to convince anyone to quit their religion, and I’ll trust that rational people can tell the difference between respecting others and whatever it is you are up to.
Regarding the photos, etc., I’m just sharing some of my stash.
getreal
@TANK: I have tried to have an honest discussion and it is not possible you have to much baggage on this issue you expect me a mere mortal to be responsible for every abuse of every christian and church on the planet. That is not rational so I give up. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.
TANK
@getreal:
I don’t think you’re directly responsible, no. Indirectly? Of course–you support them publically. But you should take responsibility for the label you claim and religion you support. That’s called maturity. Of course, I’ve backed up my “opinion” with an argument you’ve tried and failed to dismantle, which makes it not an opinion at all. You can’t defend your own, however.
Allan
“Leave it to hateful religious types to throw around the word “Armageddon” with such aplomb.”
kevin (not that one)
Getreal: isn’t it time you got real? I mean, religion is to blame for all that is evil and wrong with the world, right? It’s harmful and it destroys to planet, like a thousand nuclear missles. Please stop harming yourself and others by believing in such nonsense! There is no God! Listen to me! I must convince you to stop this madness!
THE SKY IS FALLING AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE ALL TO BLAME!
Life is so much better for us atheists! We are all happy and content now that we have dumped the oppression of religion off our backs. We are liberated!!!
getreal
@kevin (not that one): LOL! We needed a little comic relief on this thread. Thanks.
TANK
“HELP! HELP! I’M BEING REPRESSED!”
No one said that religion is responsible for all the bad things that occur in the world…no one said that…just enough to know we can do a whole lot better than religion.
Allan
@TANK: Isn’t it time you got tanked? I mean, religion is not to blame for anything that is evil and wrong with the world, right? It is helpful and it preserves the planet, like a thousand-trillion nanobots. Please stop harming yourself and others by not believing in these facts. There is a God! Listen to me! I must convince you to give up this atheist madness!
THE SKY IS FALLING AND NON-RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE ALL TO BLAME!
Life is so much better for us religionists! We are all happy and content now that we have dumped the oppression of reality off our backs. We are liberated!
Plagiarized and edited. Thanks! Hope you are as amused by this version, GETREAL.
TANK
I did, and on my vacation? I don’t need to be reminded…wayyyy ahead of you. In fact, I’ve been tanked all day…let’s just keep that between you and me.
getreal
@Allan: No I don’t believe in absolutes. I believe in personal responsibility. I believe in trying to leave the world better than i found it. I don’t believe in judging people based on their race,sex,religion,sexual orientation or any other identification. I don’t believe in black and white thinking. I don’t think any group of people are all bad be the blacks, gays, or christians. If it makes you feel better about the world to hate people of faith go for it or don’t. It won’t make my life any different either way.
Allan
See? When religionists do it, it is comic relief. When an atheist does it, it’s “hating people of faith.” Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn, either!
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You are like some witch hunting inquisitor who insists on telling his accused she is in league with the devil even though she knows nothing about it.
You actually have as much of your ego invested in the myth of the nasty fundamentalist god as the right-wingers do. Without that imaginary boogeyman you don’t have a target. That’s why you’re so insistent that is what I believe in, even though it is not true.
You will just not listen to anything else than the noises in your own head.
Most modern American Christians probably do assume that god is all-knowing and all-powerful, but I think many do not have such a black and white conception (TANK, can you actually understand something that is NOT black and white?).
It doesn’t actually say God is all-powerful in the bible, despite the mythical creation story.
There are many places, particularly in the old testament, where god has very human attributes – jealousy, vengance. S/he also changed his/her mind on numberous occasions – convinced by Lot to not destroy Sodom, and by Moses to not destroy the Israelites (in the original text, god has no specific gender).
God also tested Abraham, and accepted a wager with the devil over Job’s faith; clearly s/he may be a little less omniscient than you make out.
And Jacob wrestling an angel into submission (though he broke his hip in the process) shows that divine messengers were not considered all-powerful.
But don’t let the facts or me telling you that I am an agnostic get in the way of your delusions. You seem determined to win this discussion, and apparently in the locked room of your own mind you have.
TANK
You are like some witch hunting inquisitor who insists on telling his accused she is in league with the devil even though she knows nothing about it.
And you’re like a nazi prison guard who downplays the severity of the abuses that occurred to sa ve his own hide. You think it’s funny or of no consequence that you worship a sadistic pig, and that that sadistic evil that consumes your god renders it nonexistent? You haven’t begun to comprehend the argument advanced, and it’s only one sick sociopathic puppy (who is extremely unethical) to compare, say, the slaughter of aboriginal peoples to “god isn’t here to top off our drinks”, you sicko. Why kind of a monster gives an equally sick monster (and thus a nonexistent one, for that being cannot be ethical, let alone perfectly good with the existence of natural and human evil) as pass like that? You’ve got a few screws loose.
You actually have as much of your ego invested in the myth of the nasty fundamentalist god as the right-wingers do.
Empty. No argument or proof. Another false accusation from the radical religious christer set.
Without that imaginary boogeyman you don’t have a target. That’s why you’re so insistent that is what I believe in, even though it is not true.
What are you talking about, flake? I gave the logical problem of evil. You said that god is under no ethical obligation (however slight) to do something about it, though he could have and knew about it…I think you’re describing not a perfectly ethical being, but an abhorrent beast…a narcissistic infant…this is inconsistent with god’s perfect goodness.
You will just not listen to anything else than the noises in your own head.
You’re a flake. One insult and ad hominem after another. You better get to some substance quick, or else fuck you, jackoff.
Most modern American Christians probably do assume that god is all-knowing and all-powerful, but I think many do not have such a black and white conception (TANK, can you actually understand something that is NOT black and white?).
1. God is defined in christianity as a 3-O world creator. That means that god is omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and perfectly good. This isn’t a matter of dispute; this is THE definition of the christian god.
But maybe each christian has a totally different god in their mind than the god of the bible and the god of every single christian faith…maybe that’s true…maybe god is truly nonsensical, for there is no coherent uniform definition of it.
2. If you want to treat the bible as allegorical, and not literal, and thus have no interest in the truth of the matter, then that should extend to the existence of god, too. In other words, if it’s all allegorical, then god doesn’t literally exist…that’s just a story… People unconcerned with the truth of the bible or who don’t believe that it is literal are not concerned with the existence or nonexistence of god, or the truth or falsity of their religion. Thus, they wouldn’t argue for or against its TRUTH either way.
It doesn’t actually say God is all-powerful in the bible, despite the mythical creation story.
Well, you can take it up with the every christian faith under the sun. Take your case to them. Prove to them that the bible doesn’t indicate that god is a 3-O world creator, because they’re on all board, and have been since before Aquinas was an itch in his father’s pants… LOL! You’re a jackass and a half. And you’d argue for the sake of it. This is truly one of the most desperate moves. In any event…the 3-O god doesn’t exist, and the problem of evil proves it. If you insist that’s not the god of christianity, that’s your business, not christianity’s or mine.
You’re playing the definition game, when cornered. “oh, that’s not what I Meant, this is…nothing at all” IN reality, you don’t mean anything at all.
There are many places, particularly in the old testament, where god has very human attributes – jealousy, vengance. S/he also changed his/her mind on numberous occasions – convinced by Lot to not destroy Sodom, and by Moses to not destroy the Israelites (in the original text, god has no specific gender).
Yes, a cranky infant. But the god of the new testament, and the god that is worshipped by christians and jews and muslims is what they consider a worthy entity of worship, not a cranky toddler. And that, as it says in the bible, is an entity that is, once again because you’re awfully slow on the uptake here…OMNISCIENT (all KNOWING), OMNIPOTENT (all powerful), and perfectly good or OMNIBENEVOLENT…do you follow yet, or do you need more reading material than the bible to prove that case? YOu’re a desperate, angry, delusional fool who is arguing simply for the sake of it as this point.
TANK
But start with the definition of god. Then ask a christian whether or not god is all knowing, all powerful and perfectly good. Then a jew…then a muslim. You’ll have your answer.
strumpetwindsock
Okay Mini-Me.
If you’re such a stickler for literalism, you should know that most modern fundamentalist dogma (including the whole question of marriage) has no basis in the bible whatsoever. Why are you insisting on biblical literalism if you don’t believe it is the truth?
Obviously because you want an easy target to slam christians, even though many (likely a majority) nowadays believe in evolution and are not literalists.
With the exception of the pentateuch, I have always seen it as a heavily-revised, poorly translated work written by fallible human beings. It never was the exact truth.
And also, my exacting, literalist sparring opponent, have you yet found that post in which you claim I said that prejean woman was not a bigot? The one you based all your repeated accusations on.
If not, I hope to be getting an apopogy from you.
On that note armageddon tired of how long this page takes to load. I think we’ll pick this up somewhere else.
getreal
@strumpetwindsock: Sometimes you are so smart you give me chills. Are you an agonistic or an atheists (is it rude to ask)?
TANK
If you’re such a stickler for literalism, you should know that most modern fundamentalist dogma (including the whole question of marriage) has no basis in the bible whatsoever. Why are you insisting on biblical literalism if you don’t believe it is the truth?
But I’m not insisting on literalism. Those who defend the existence of god are, and also those who base their “moral” disagreements with any social policy are basing it on the bible as the word of god. They believe that’s true…literally. And the same sex marriage debate does have a basis in the bible that every fundamentalist relies on. It’s called leviticus…and corinthians, and romans. You’re defending them now, and christianity…because you’re a true believer.
Obviously because you want an easy target to slam christians, even though many (likely a majority) nowadays believe in evolution and are not literalists.
Not when it comes to matters of “morals” justifed by the bible for them, or the actual existence of god. Then they become literalists. For, once again, if they don’t care about the truth of the bible, and believe it’s just a story…and they don’t worship a god that exists to them, because that, too, is just a story…then they don’t care to defend their religious positions. But they do…so you’re wrong.
With the exception of the pentateuch, I have always seen it as a heavily-revised, poorly translated work written by fallible human beings. It never was the exact truth.
Once again, if you’re at all interested in whether or not god exists, then you’re interested in the truth value of that claim. If the bible is merely allegorical, and people believe that it is ALL just a story, then they don’t care whether or not god exists. THis isn’t true…for most christians don’t believe that the bible is just a story (a fictional tale), but the word of god…and they believe that god exists not as a fictional character, but a 3-O world creator. Is this penetrating your skull at all?
TANK
@getreal:
Now that’s a low bar to reach…
TANK
Once again, if you’re at all interested in whether or not god exists, then you’re interested in the truth value of that claim. If the bible is merely allegorical, and people believe that it is ALL just a story, then they don’t care whether or not god exists. THis isn’t true…for most christians don’t believe that the bible is just a story (a fictional tale), but the word of god…and they believe that god exists not as a fictional character, but a 3-O world creator.
And to really send this point home…because I’m starting to bore myself and am just beginning to come off like a dickhole…
PEOPLE DO NOT LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES FOR CALVIN AND HOBBES. They do for the qur’an, and to a far lesser extent now than in the past, they do it for the bible.
People don’t bomb abortion clinics because of Pride and Prejudice…
People don’t stage antigay rallies and spend millions of dollars to oppose equal rights for lgbt americans (think prop h8) because of great expectations. They do, however, for the book of mormon and the bible…
Fact is, most christians DO believe that the bible is the word of god, and that god exists. They may think that SOME bible stories are allegories (maybe jonah and hte whale…but many christians believe that’s LITERALLY TRUE, TOO!), but a good chunk of it they believe to be literal, including that it’s the word of god and that it exists for it to be the word of god… UNBELIEVABLE that you’d think of suggesting otherwise…simply unbelievable.
TANK
I gurantee you that Harry Jackson doesn’t believe the bible is merely a story…an allegory with the same degree of truth as MOBY DICK…christ man, wake up.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I know you are joking, but people did kill and die for the ideas of Thomas Hobbes. A little matter called the English Civil Wars? (yeah, I know he actually wrote Leviathan during the first war, but the strife continued after its publication over his idea of the social contract).
And actually quite a few people murdered in the name of the humanist, anti-christian philosophies of Rousseau Diderot and Voltaire (but especially Roussseau). Funny thing is, once they had done away with most of the popery Robespierre found it necessary to invent God all again with his “festival of the supreme being”.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Yeah, but not because of his atheism, or his interesting position given his thoroughgoing materialism.
Are you comparing Thomas Hobbes to calvin and hobbes? LOL!
Let’s compare the death tolls, though…to this day. How many people are killing because of the ideas of voltaire today as opposed to the qur’an and bible?
But what’s your point? Because it doesn’t address mine…being that people do not treat their religious beliefs and books as allegorical. Christians don’t think of god as a fictional character.
TANK
ANd to blame the english civil wars on hobbes…well, that’s hilarious.
TANK
I can, however, blame the inquisition on christianity. That wouldn’t have happened if christianity didn’t exist. I can blame prop h8 on religion…wouldn’t have happened if religion didn’t exist. I think the english civil wars would’ve happened even if hobbes never penned a letter.
TANK
And then, explain to me how the ideas of voltaire (what specifically about them) incited people to KILL others for them. Because I can cite specific christian beliefs that have been historically responsible for the massacre of innocent people.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I think the English Civil war was a good (if not entirely necessary) thing, and I am not criticizing Hobbes, but Leviathian was borne out of his analysis of that struggle, and from its publication until the matter of absolutism was resolved in 1689 a lot of people fought for the ideas he put on paper.
While I don’t believe Voltaire ever counseled murder, I am sure the fact that priests were among the first slaughtered in the September Massacres was in part due to rabid zealots using his anti-religious and anti-superstitious words to their own ends.
… just as many modern (and medieval) Christians perverted passages in the Bible or invented dogma which was not there in the first place, though they continue to claim that they act on biblical authority.
And regarding the books you mentioned, there is actually nothing in the bible which specifically outlines a marriage ceremony, that it must be between one man and one woman, that it must be done by clergy, nor even that it is an institution given by god.
There are plenty of words regarding relationships (many of then sexist, and some which have been construed as homophobic), but the notion of marriage as a religious sacrament is a later invention with no biblical foundation.
The entire argument the fundies are making has no biblical source.
That is part of the reason why Oliver Cromwell’s Pilgrims (no strangers to religious fascism) did not recognize church ceremonies and instituted an English law of civil ceremonies only.
getreal
Wherever you fall on the religious spectrum I recommend reading this thread. It is epic. Start at the beginning and be amazed at how diverse the Queerty community is.
TANK
I think the English Civil war was a good (if not entirely necessary) thing, and I am not criticizing Hobbes, but Leviathian was borne out of his analysis of that struggle, and from its publication until the matter of absolutism was resolved in 1689 a lot of people fought for the ideas he put on paper.
I don’t think they did. I think that it may have been used as a reason, but that’s simply not why they fought. And what does this have to do with the price of beans?
Are you dodging again? I think I got you dead to rights…and now you’re changing the subject to avoid…defeat. Get used to it. You will never an argument with me because I don’t choose arguments I can lose. Especially not to you.
While I don’t believe Voltaire ever counseled murder, I am sure the fact that priests were among the first slaughtered in the September Massacres was in part due to rabid zealots using his anti-religious and anti-superstitious words to their own ends.
Then you are a bigger nut than I thought if you think voltaire’s work or even hobbes’s work had anything to do with the drop of a clergyman’s blood. You are now in wingnut territory. Don’t you have some batshit conspiracy theories you’d like to pawn off? But who cares? What does this have to do with what we were disagreeing about? What does this have to do with anything at all? This is your fanciful contrivance to evade…LOL!
… just as many modern (and medieval) Christians perverted passages in the Bible or invented dogma which was not there in the first place, though they continue to claim that they act on biblical authority.
Now, do you have the originals to compare their “perversion” with? I admit that the bible has been edited and reinterpreted and edited again thousands of times…we have absolutely no way of knowing what we have right now reflects anything even remotely similar to the original. And? LOL!
And regarding the books you mentioned, there is actually nothing in the bible which specifically outlines a marriage ceremony, that it must be between one man and one woman,
LOL! This was never my contention…
that it must be done by clergy, nor even that it is an institution given by god.
Never my contention. Opposition to homosexuality is justified by the bible. No amount of soft interpretation and recontexting is going to convince any christian that they’re on that matter…and you know what? They have no reason to doubt their interpretation other than that anyone can disagree with them legitimately with a counter interpretation…and that basically undermines the meaingfulness of the entire book and every interpretation.
There are plenty of words regarding relationships (many of then sexist, and some which have been construed as homophobic), but the notion of marriage as a religious sacrament is a later invention with no biblical foundation.
Wow, you sure got me there…
The entire argument the fundies are making has no biblical source.
No? I think it is. I think they’re saying that since homosexuality is considered sinful by the bible, that same sex marriage and the recognition of homosexuality in the institution (a recent phenomenon) is wrong… I think that’s basically their point. Were you aware of it? Welcome to the show…LOL! you’re awful silly.
Now how about admitting that god is not considered to be a fictional character by christians, and that the bible is largely considered to be the word of god, and not a protracted allegory… Wave the white flag, or I’ll continue to embarass you with your own reasoning.
TANK
Honestly, pinning the september massacres to voltaire! LMAO! Not anti aristocratic fever of the french revolution (and that the church was basically the handmaiden of the aristocracy)…goodness, you’re a gem.
TANK
ANd a christer…make no mistake. You’re as much a christian zealot as any other. But you’re a walking contradiction, and contrarian…you argue for the sake of it. Now that wouldn’t bother me (I do it, too)…but at least have a good arugment…and not these desperate, childish little fits.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
I think that it may have been used as a reason, but that’s simply not why they fought
Nice compact little contradiction there. Well did they or didn’t they?
At this point TANK, I’m actually talking over your head for the benefit of anyone else who may be reading this. I don’t actually expect you to acknowledge the validity of anything you don’t believe in, no matter what the evidence.
I’m not sure if you actually believe this or if you are just playing a game. Because much of your logic doesn’t make sense, when it falls apart you resort to outright lies, insults and trickery, and you avoid any real challenges I make to you to back up false claims (still waiting for that apology).
I just find it astonishing that you might actually believe what you are saying, rather than be playing some long-expired April Fools Joke.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
And you should read the history of the French Revolution.
Once the lunatics took over it was specifically anti-clerical (with a good deal of justification, of course).
The initial revolution wasn’t even against the king, but against “middle management”. Many people considered themselves to be protesting in the name of the king.
And it may have seemed anti-aristocratic, but in reality far more poor people were murdered by the republicans than wealthy (I think I laid this all out for Bill Perdue once already).
In the end the Jacobins were executing everyone who simply was not one of them, including people who screamed louder than they did.
TANK
I want everyone to know that strumpet is a christer, and that this is his modified dinesh d’souza argument that “atheism causes stalinism, nazism, and the atrocities under maoist china”. This is his argument for the same thing. Now I’m going to bring it down like everyone who’s gone up against d’souza has brought down that patently unsound argument.
Nice compact little contradiction there. Well did they or didn’t they?
Make sense.
At this point TANK, I’m actually talking over your head for the benefit of anyone else who may be reading this. I don’t actually expect you to acknowledge the validity of anything you don’t believe in, no matter what the evidence.
You claimed that atheism was repsonsible for the september massacres.
THERE IS NOTHING INTRINSIC TO ATHEISM THAT DEMANDS GENOCIDE. ATHEISM IS NOT A POLITICAL BELIEF SYSTEM LIKE THOSE PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. IT IS NOT A ECONOMIC SYSTEM, LIKE CAPITALISM, OR COMMUNISM, OR SOCIALISM.
IF YOU INSIST THAT ATHEISM CAUSES PEOPLE TO COMMIT THESE ATROCTIES, IT IS UP TO YOU TO EXPLICITLY SHOW HOW THIS IS POSSIBLE; HOW ATHEISM IS INTRINSICALLY VIOLENT AND CAUSES PEOPLE TO PERFORM HARMFUL ACTS. THIS IS LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE BASED UPON ITS MEANING, BUT YOU NEED TO DEMONSTRATE THIS WHEN YOU MAKE THE ACCUSATION THAT IT DOES.
THIS IS NOT SO WITH CHRISTIANITY AND OTHER RELIGIONS. IF NOT FOR RELIGION, PROPOSITION 8 WOULD NOT HAVE PASSED. IF NOT FOR RELIGION, THE INQUISITION WOULD NOT HAVE COME TO PASS. IF NOT FOR RELIGION, SEPTEMBER 11TH WOULDN’T HAVE OCCURRED. IT IS A PART OF CHRISTIAN BELIEFS TO BE VIOLENT; TO SUBJUGATE OTHERS; TO CAUSE HARM. THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE, AND EMBRACED BY MANY CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE. RELIGION, AND SPECIFICALLY CHRISTIANITY, CAUSES OTHERWISE GOOD PEOPLE TO DO HORRIBLE THINGS.
I’m not sure if you actually believe this or if you are just playing a game. Because much of your logic doesn’t make sense, when it falls apart you resort to outright lies, insults and trickery, and you avoid any real challenges I make to you to back up false claims (still waiting for that apology).
YOU ARE A LYING DISSEMBLER. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT. YOU ARE A SEEDY AND SCHEMING AS ANY HOLY ROLLER WHO WEISELS OUT OF A FAIR AND HONEST DEBATE. YOU HAVE PLAYED EVERY SINGLE UNSCRUPULOUS HAND YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO, TO LIE AND MALIGN ATHEISM AND DEFEND YOUR CHRISTIAN FAITH. IT IS REPULSIVE. YOU HAVEN’T AN HONEST, DECENT BONE IN YOUR BODY.
I just find it astonishing that you might actually believe what you are saying, rather than be playing some long-expired April Fools Joke.
NO SUBSTANCE.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
NO, DINESH, YOU NEED TO SHOW HOW ATHEISM, AND ATHEISM ALONE, IS RESPONSIBLE FOR VIOLENCE…AND NOT OTHER BELIEF SYSTEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
You say “other” belief systems.
Did you just slip up there and admit atheism is a belief of yours?
Also, your accusations are false.
I suppose it’s pointless to ask you to go back and read my words, but I said that blaming christianity for all world strife is inaccurate because some terrible massacres were committed by states which were not religious.
I said that it would be inaccurate to blame Stalinist violence on atheism, just as it is inaccurate to blame ALL slaughter done by christian states on religion.
I know Rousseau and Voltaire never counseled murder (Diderot did, though I know it was just hyperbolae), but their anti-clerical and anti-absolutist theories were used by the republicans and Jacobins to commit mass murder.
The funny thing is I agree with you that most of the oppression in European history WAS done through organized religion. I just think you are ignoring the fact that Christianity is not one monolithic belief.
And as for branding me a christian… If I said I supported racial equality would you start calling me a black man too? Because I can tell you the story of Orpheus and Eurydice would you assume I am in a Dianic cult?
But you are yelling. Perhaps you should take up that yoga I recommended before you burst a blood vessel.
TANK
You say “other” belief systems.
Did you just slip up there and admit atheism is a belief of yours?
You simply don’t know what atheism is. It’s a joke at this point. You’re batting at strawmen if you don’t know something as basic as what atheism is. And you’re desperate. Desperate to defend your faith…and it’s not working out for you.
Also, your accusations are false.
I suppose it’s pointless to ask you to go back and read my words, but I said that blaming christianity for all world strife is inaccurate because some terrible massacres were committed by states which were not religious.
Another strawman. I never blamed “all the world’s strife” on christianity, or even religion. But a good deal of it is to be blamed on it.
1. Learn what atheism is.
2. For your argument to work, you need to show how atheism caused those atrocities. You need to show how atheism entails, say, genocide; how atheism can cause one person to harm another.
I said that it would be inaccurate to blame Stalinist violence on atheism, just as it is inaccurate to blame ALL slaughter done by christian states on religion.
I only blame the harm done by christians and christian states in the name of christianity and because of christianity on christianity…what part of that haven’t you understood?
I know Rousseau and Voltaire never counseled murder (Diderot did, though I know it was just hyperbolae),
Rousseah and voltaire and diderot aren’t “atheism”. Do you get it yet? You simply fail to grasp this simple point. That’s like calling the Pope christianity. It’s like talking to a three year old who is special needs… If an atheist counsels harm, it’s not because of their atheism…it cannot be because… There is nothing intrinsic to atheism that entails violence or harm; it cannot given what it means. Some atheists can be bad people because they believe things like that sexism is true, for example, while still being atheist. But their atheism alone is not what causes them to do bad things because….once again…THERE IS NOTHING INTRINSIC TO THE MEANING OF ATHEISM THAT ENTAILS HARM BE DONE TO OTHERS. Do you get it yet? That simply cannot be said of christianity. There are things christians do that they wouldn’t do if they weren’t christian which are horrible. THE END.
There is a lot intrinsic to christianity that entails violence and harm. This is true of other religions, too.
….it’s not true of atheism. Because atheism is not a belief system…it’s not a belief about the world, even…it’s not an ethical system…it’s not a spiritual system…it’s not a economic system or political system…you really need to know what you’re talking about (learn what atheism first) before you can begin to discuss it intelligently.
but their anti-clerical and anti-absolutist theories were used by the republicans and Jacobins to commit mass murder.
Which were not atheism. DO you get it yet?
Because atheism is not a belief system…it’s not a belief about the world, even…it’s not an ethical system…it’s not a spiritual system…it’s not a economic system or political system…you really need to know what you’re talking about (learn what atheism first) before you can begin to discuss it intelligently.
I’ll repeat this from here on out each time you mischaracterize atheism.
The funny thing is I agree with you that most of the oppression in European history WAS done through organized religion. I just think you are ignoring the fact that Christianity is not one monolithic belief.
Of course it is. I don’t think you know monolithic means either. Christians all look to the bible for guidance, and believe it’s the word of god. They are all considered christian for a reason.
And as for branding me a christian… If I said I supported racial equality would you start calling me a black man too?
you are beyond a shadow of doubt a christian fundamentalist. THere isn’t a shred of credibility behind your denials here. This is cheap rhetorical trick. What you’re supporting is not religious tolerance, but religious fundamentalism. You are attacking with every post this equivocated false atheism you’ve contrived, while defending religion…specifically, christianity. You are a christer.
tarheel1023
bible= bullying individuals loathing everyone!!!