VIEWPOINTS — “I want to challenge her on her point of view, but she spoke her conscience, I think she’s being a little unfairly maligned.” —California gubernatorial hopeful Gavin Newsom on Miss California Carrie Prejean [NBC San Diego]
Gavin Newsom
Carrie Prejean ‘unfairly maligned’
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Timmeeeyyy
1. Why is she allowed to speak her conscience, but no one else is allowed to challenge that by speaking their own conscience.
2. I keep seeing stories about how she’s being treated unfairly. How? Has she lost employment? Been denied housing? Had her children taken away? Been denied a partner’s death benefits? Been physically attacked? Bullied? Been kept from making decisions for a loved one? Been unfairly taxed? Because gay folks have.
3. Does anyone know the name of the actual winner?
rogue dandelion
Gavin is right
President Obama issued this same statement(all be it much more articulately) during the campaign, and we let him and the other candidates slide on by. Miss CA isn’t setting policy, who cares?
Gavin is so shrewd! Softening his image by taking the right’s stance on an irrelevant issue. Gav for Gov!
audrina
SEE, EVEN THE MOST GAY FRIENDLY POLITICIAN THINKS SHE IS AWESOME!. HE PROBABLY THINKS SHE IS CUTE TOO .MAN.WE GAYS HAVE A LOOOOONG WAY TO GO.
BrianZ
I think that we have every right to challenge her on her position, and make the point that her belief that some citizens do not deserve full equality in civil rights should disqualify her from being , uhm, whatever it was she was trying to win. (laugh)
I don’t think it’s necessary to call her names or make inflammatory statements about her. I can see where would easily create the impression that she is being unfairly maligned and attacked. Pezzer’s ignorant ranting on his blog video allowed her to instantly play the victim card and she’s playing it well. Her ignorant answer (and if you watch her deliver it, ignorant is about all you can walk away with) deserves a response but a measured one.
Jason
And the backpedaling to win the center of the state has begun!
hardmannyc
Gavin Newsom is so much prettier than Miss California.
Miss Understood
She’s the new Anita Bryant.
Robert, NYC
My take on all this is why is religion allowed to trample over our basic civil rights or equality as happened in California with Prop. H8? Perez Hilton, whether you like him or not, asked a perfectly legitimate question. Its about time we had this debate and get it out in the open once and for all. Prejean’s response is immaterial and irrelevant as are her beliefs. She’s supposed to be a bible student isn’t she? If that’s the case, then why is she entering a beauty pageant in which wearing a swimsuit is part of the deal? According to her bible that she obviously believes in as are all christians supposed to, women aren’t supposed to be flaunting their bodies, baring their flesh in public and is considered sinful. Ms. Prejean is like the majority of cafeteria christians, a fucking hypocrite and a bigot. They cherry pick bits and pieces to suit their agenda while ignoring other quotes that don’t fit in with their lifestyle or comfort zone. Its beyond the doublestandard.
Dabq
@audrina: I agree, and, like most straight guys, he probaly wants to hit it as well, those bottle blonds seem to have this effect on them for some reason to the point they will give up any scruples to protect and defend her trash talk.
HeteroDefenseLeague
Prejean was victimized by bigoted homosexuals, and here is how:
She was denied winning because of her religious beliefs, proven by the fact that one of the 3 homosexual judges on the panel, Perez Hilton the homoexual bigot gave her a score of zero, and another judge with a homosexual sibling said she to gave her a low score due to her religious beliefs.
Prejean was victimized because she was threatened with physical violence if she had won by the homosexual bigot Perez Hilton, one of the 3 homosexual judges.
Homosexual bigots regularly use economic threats and retaliation against anyone who opposes them. Just ask Laura Schlessinger
Homosexual bigots are feverlishly and virulently working to pass laws that criminalize opposition, cleverly disguised as “hate crimes” and “discrimination” laws.
That is how homosexuals are trying to deny us our basic fundamental human rights, and that is why homosexuals are hate filled, narrow minded, intolerant, mean spiritied, wrong headed, discriminatory, intolerant, Chrisitan bashing, criminal, terroristic, homosexist, heteorphobic bigots.
TANK
Yeah, so? He’s a politician.
Alec
@HeteroDefenseLeague: This is hilarious. Please, do go on. Who is this really?
BradK
@HeteroDefenseLeague: LOLZ!
BradK
Seriously though, I don’t think it’s accurate to suggest she has any sort of agenda (other than being crowned Miss Notice Me) since that would imply having a clue in the first place. I doubt she has either.
And as for comparing her to Anita Bryant, I think that crown still belongs to Maggie Gallagher. Praise the Lord and pass the twinkies.
Gavin has the right idea is trying to minimize this and not antagonize the Righteous Right. He has a long battle ahead and I have a lot more confidence in him than our newly anointed Messiah.
Robert, NYC
@HeteroDefenseLeague:
Hi, we love the wit and humor, give us more. You are as Alec says, hilarious, I’m laughing my head off. Continue on.
To the rest of you, perhaps Prejean has learned something about reversed discrimination in all this. These christo cultists always play the victim only this time its not going to work.
If procreation is at the root of the anti same-sex marriage haters’ cause and I suspect it is including Prejean….then they’ll have to start fighting to ban hetero marriages that choose not to procreate or can’t along with childless couples who marry later in life long after child bearing is possible. These christo bigots can’t have it both ways. I’ve not seen anything written in regard to CIVIL marriage wherein it states that procreation is mandatory or a requirement in order to get married. Civil marriage also has no religious component or reference. I’ve been to several, I never heard one word referring to any deity. Let the breeders have religious marriage if they want, and let us have ours. The two aren’t the same.
Bruno
Unfairly maligned by Perez maybe. Who else? Miss Nevada? Miss Hawaii? Oh I know! Miss North Carolina, who will now fade into her role as a dental hygienist while Carrie Prejean rakes in the dough on talk shows with Mike Huckabee and Joe Scarborough, all the while showing off her boob job to Michael Phelps or whoever else can stand her company.
MICHAEL
THE NEW MISS USA HAS BACKED UP MISS CA AND SAID THAT SHE TOO BELIEVES A MARRIAGE IS BTWN MAN/WOMAN.FOX NEWS IS HAVING A PARTY OVER THIS. GO FIGURE.
Chitown Kev
@HeteroDefenseLeague:
LMAO
Chitown Kev
@MICHAEL:
“Miss USA Kristen Dalton, sort of punts on the question: “In short, I would say everyone should be able to enter into a civil union, where they’re legally recognized as a couple and earn the same rights as a married couple. I’m not going to say whether or not I think it should be defined as marriage because that’s up to our politicans and our elected officials.”
But she also said that the decision should be left up to politicians and elected officials. You can infer from that that she would be against a direct vote by the people which is what Proposition 8 was. And she did not cite her religious beliefs either.
That’s a nuanced and poised position that the Real Miss USA is taking and while I don’t agree with it, that is why she beat out Miss Calibama!
sal
@Timmeeeyyy: preach it brother!!!
sparkle obama
@TANK:
you dismiss what newsom said because he is a ‘politician” but you fixate & obsess on what miss california said because she is…
oh hell, you kids are full of it!
TANK
I dismiss what gavin newsom said because he’s pandering for votes. He hasn’t an argument to support his opinion (that’s why it’s an opinion…)…and it’s ridiculous and vacuous.
I don’t fixate and obsess on what miss california said. She’s a bigoted piece of shit.
TANK
Or, as talleyrand was referred to, she’s a silk stalking stuffed with shit.
Erasure25
@HeteroDefenseLeague:
Oh yes, I feel so sorry for heteros… Except for the that fact that you are the ones in power calling the shots and denying civil rights to entire groups of people just because thinking about two men getting it on makes you feel icky.
By definition, the majority cannot claim to be subjected to prejudice. It implies lack of power, which is simply not the case. Here’s a hint: either get out of the closet you self-hating homo or stop thinking about gay sex.
For the life of me I cannot figure out why so many heteros think about gay sex so much that they feel the need to protest against it.
Sandogg
@TANK: Calling her a bigoted piece of shit is a bit extreme. Ignorant, maybe, but just as she said during her response, she was raised w/ these ignorant beliefs.
Had the half-retard Mario Lavanderia not brought up the question, the whole issue would be moot. Yeah, he threw off-guard when she ignorantly stated people are able to choose between gay marriage and “opposite” marriage, before gaining her composure and made the statement that she was raised by idiots to be an idiot. End of story.
TANK
@Sandogg:
….sigh…That’s the misappropriation of a term to describe her. She may very well be ignorant; in fact, many bigots may very well be ignorant, but that has nothing to do with their bigotry. You ACT like it’s some fact about the world that they have yet to learn that’s responsible for their bigotry. What kind of fact is that? That gay people exist and want equal rights? Is that the fact that she needs to learn? THis isn’t ignorance. This is bigotry masked in religion and bigoted tradition.
The explanation for why she has these beliefs does not EXCUSE her for having them and giving voice to them, and acting in accordance with them. Her ignorance is beside the point. And yeah, she is ignorant and likely worse.
Dave
He is positioning himself, and trying to win some independent voters. I hope he does not back peddle on his support for our rights though. That would hurt.
hardmannyc
Newsom would have to say something a lot more offensive than that to get me off his team after all he’s done for us. Besides, he’s so damned photogenic.
HeteroDefenseLeague
You homosexual hate mongering heterophobic Chrisitian bashing bigots are just ignorant fascists.
stephen kay
ban christianity I say. Bloody bunch of oppressive murderers.
HeteroDefenseLeague
Nice homosexual Christian bashing Stephen kay, you hate mongering, bigoted, mean spirited ignorant intolerant fascist thug.
And as to who are the oppressive murderers, it looks like your fellow homosexual bigoted child molesters are the real serial killers:
Homosexual serial killers throughout modern times:
Jeffrey Dahmer, killed 17 people. Homosexual cannibal
Andrew Cunanan killed 5 people
Luis Alfredo Garavito 140+ male homosexual pedophile who raped and killed over 140 underage boys.
Randy Steven Kraft killed 65 people.
Michael Swango killed between 35-60 people.
Andrei Chikatilo killed 52 people.
Fritz Haarmann killed an estimate 40 people, and butchered their bodies.
John Wayne Gacy killed 33 people, 27 were underage boys he raped and buried under his house.
Patrick Wayne Kearney killed 28 people.
Hans Grans killed 27 +, was the homosexual sex partner of The Butche rof Hannover Fritz Haarmann
Wayne Williams killed 27 people.
Dean Corll killed 27 people.
Elmer Wayne Henley killed 27 underage boys whom he rape, tortured and murdered.
David Owen Brooks killed 27 people.
Donald Harvey killed between 25 and 40 people.
Juan Corona killed 25 His brother is Natividad, the homosexual owner of the Guadalajara cafe in Marysville, CA
Adolfo de Jesus Constanzo killed 21 people
Larry Eyler killed 19 people.
Huang Yong killed 17+ people, he murdered underage boys.
Dennis Nilsen killed 16 people.
David D. Hill killed 28 people.
Dennis Nilsen killed 16 people.
Marcelo Costa de Andrade killed 14 people.
William Bonin killed 12 people.
Henry Lee Lucas killed 12+ people
Ottis Toole killed 12 + people
Vaughn Greenwood killed 11 people.
Richard Speck killed 8 people
Erik Menendez killed 2 people.
Bruce Davis killed 2 people, manson accomplice
David Edward Maust killed 5+ humans, all underage boys.
David P. Brown
(a.k.a. Nathaniel Bar-Jonah) killed 3 underage boys.
Arthur Gary Bishop killed 5 people.
Michael Lupo killed 4 people
FEMALE HOMOSEXUAL SERIAL KILLERS:
Magdalena Solis 8
Aileen Wuornos 7+
Tyria Moore 7+
Catherine Wood 6
Gwen Graham 6
Homosexuality among Serial Killers: Statistics
Source, “over 43%”: “Homosexual Rape and Murder of Children”, published in Journal of the Family Research Institute, Vol. 18 No. 1, Feb 2003.
Technically, 69% of the serial killers in this study were homosexuals (i.e., people who were self-described homosexuals or people who had engaged in homosexual behavior immediately prior to, during, or after committing their murders). The lower statistic of 43% cited above is the proportion who were homosexual among people who molested or raped and then murdered children: 43% of these perpetrators were homosexuals. This lower figure, however, includes people who killed only a single person, and are thus not classified as serial killers. The lower figure is used in the article above (as “over 43%”) because it comes from a larger sample size. Presumably, if the sample size were expanded to include a wider range of years, the proportion of serial killers who are homosexuals would remain between the proportion in this study who are serial killers (69% homosexuals versus 31% heterosexuals) and the proportion of all killers in this study (43% homosexual versus 57% heterosexual). Also note the approximately 50% of murders committed by homosexuals reported by Warren with regards to murders of adults. See also: Gemert, F. van, “Chicken kills hawk: gay murders during the eighties in Amsterdam”, published in Journal of Homosexuality. 26(4), 149-174 (1994).
Excerpts, including methodology:
Lexis-Nexis Academic Universe, an on-line search service, scans the whole text of over 50 English regional and national newspapers, largely in the U.S., but also including major papers in Australia, England, Canada, and New Zealand (e.g., the Baltimore Sun, Boston Globe, Independent [London], Ottawa Citizen, etc.). For 1989 through 2002 inclusive, every news story that included “child molestation” was examined — a total of 6,444 stories which, after eliminating repeat stories about the same cases, reduced to 1,914 unique child molestation events. The 6,444 story database was double-checked by running “murder” and “killed” against it. Only news stories were tallied, not editorials or opinion pieces, so these were stories of fairly recent events.
One hundred and three news stories involved the rape and/or murder of children: 90 involved the molestation and murder of a child or children, 11 stories involved only the abduction and rape of children, and two the rape and mutilation, but not the murder, of the children involved. Of the 90 news stories where the child was raped and murdered (0.47% of the unique child molestation stories), 40% involved homosexual molestation.
In the most unusual case, an “educated and relatively wealthy” leader recruited two other men and a boy. This team raped and murdered precisely 100 boys 1. The leader had had prior arrests for suspicion of sodomizing boys…
Of the 95 perpetrators in these 90 stories, at least 43% engaged in homosexuality… Of the 217 victims, at least 68% were victimized by homosexual perpetrators, and at least 67% were boys… Furthermore, both multiple perpetrators and multiple victims were associated with homosexuality. In the three stories where two or more killers were implicated, the rapes were homosexual. In 69% of the 13 stories involving more than one victim, the perpetrator engaged in homosexuality. Another 11 stories involved a charge of attempted murder. In 64% of those cases, the perpetrator engaged in homosexuality.
When all other cases of child molestation from the Lexis-Nexis search are added to these stories, there were 2,181 perpetrators in the 1,914 distinct events whose sexual proclivities could be characterized by the sex of their victim: 41% engaged in sex with their own sex, the remaining 59% with the opposite sex (another 118 perpetrators violated at least 190 children whose sex was not given). Of the 5,630 underage victims of these molestations, 61% were victimized by individuals who engaged in homosexuality. And those who performed homosexual seductions were quite one-sided: 3,386 of their victims were boys, only 60 were girls.
Overall, there was a slightly higher rate of homosexuality among perpetrators who raped and killed than among those who “merely” raped or molested (43% vs. 41%). In addition, the proportion of victims attributed to homosexual perpetrators who raped and murdered was higher than the proportion attributed to homosexuals who only raped or molested (68% vs. 61%). All of the cases involving eating or torturing the victim were committed by homosexual practitioners…
Murder and child molestation combine[ed]… are also independently associated with those who engage in homosexuality. Blanchard, Barbaree, Bogaert, Dicky, Klassen, Kuban, and Zucker, working with male offenders, concluded in 2000 that 2 the “best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men; in contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys…. Thus the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles [those who have sex with children under the age of 12 yr.]” (p. 464).
Likewise, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual III-R (DSM III-R, 1987) 3 of the American Psychiatric Association, summarizing the clinical material about men, states that “Attraction to girls [aged 13 yr. or younger] is apparently twice as common as attraction to boys” and notes that the “course is usually chronic, especially in those attracted to boys…. The recidivism rate for people with Pedophilia involving a preference for the same sex is roughly twice that of those who prefer the opposite sex” (pp. 284-5).
Both of these sources estimated that about a third of child molesters engage in homosexuality — similar to the 41% of male perpetrators who ‘only’ raped the underage in the newspaper database. In other studies 4, it has also been found that male perpetrators who engage in homosexuality claim larger numbers of rape victims than non-homosexual rapists. For instance, 84% of the 28,574 children under the age of 14 who were raped in Abel, et al. were victimized by homosexuals. Also, the higher rates of recidivism by homosexuals noted in the DSM would imply more victims too.
In line with these reports, of the 217 victims in the 90 murder and rape stories, at least 68% were victimized by homosexual perpetrators. This 68% falls between the estimate that “roughly equal numbers of girls and boys, each year fall victim to some form of sexual exploitation” cited in a recent National Association of Social Workers review of a large set of studies of child molestation 5 and the 84% reported by Abel, et al.
Murder also appears to be disproportionately associated with homosexuality. Jim Warren did the intake interview for almost all younger murderers (i.e., those under age 36) at the Washington State Corrections Center from 1971-82. In an interview in 1994… Warren said that he was struck with how frequently homosexuality turned up in the cases…: Although the motive listed in the report was often robbery or theft, he said that “about 50% of the time” it was associated with homosexuality…
…a group [homosexuals] constituting perhaps 1% to 5% of men (1.3% in the 1996 National Household Survey of Drug Abuse; higher in Black, et al. 7, Anderson and Stall 8, and Cameron and Cameron 9) generated 43% of those who were recorded in the most recent 14 years of news stories as having raped and killed children. [The minority of the population that is homosexual] also accounts for around a third of child molesters, commits between a third to two-thirds of child rapes, and may be involved in up to half of all murders…
1. Popham, P. (2000) Child killer sentenced to be throttled, cut up and immersed in an acid bath. Independent [London, England] 3/17/00.
2. Blanchard, R., Barbaree, H. E., Bogaert, A. F., Dicky, R., Klassen, P., Kuban, M. E., Zucker, K. J. (2000) Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior 29, 463-478.
3. American Psychiatric Association. (1987) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual III-R. Washington, D.C.
4. Abel, G. G., Becker, J. V., Mittelman, M., Cunningham-Rathner, J., Bouleau, J. L., and Murphy, W. D. (1987) Self-reported sex crimes of nonincarcerated paraphiliacs. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2 (1), 3-25.
5. Houston Chronicle (9/26/01) Define child sex abuse to combat problem. Editorial.
7. Black, D., Gates, G., Sanders, S. and Taylor, L. (2000) Demographics of the gay and lesbian population in the United States: evidence from available systematic data sources. Demography. 37, 139-154.
8. Anderson, J. E. and Stall, R. (2002) Increased reporting of male-to-male sexual activity in a national survey. Sexually Transmitted Diseases, 29, 643-646.
9. Cameron, P. and Cameron, K. (2002) What proportion of heterosexuals is ex-homosexual? Psychological Reports 91, 1087-1097.
strumpetwindsock
Oh God.
It was a beauty contest, not a testimony meeting. She was supposed to say something diplomatic and she failed, utterly.
I think Newsom may have been trying to show a little diplomacy himself in the face of an awkward question himself (I assume he was shanghaied). I can’t magine any intelligent politician going out of his way to jump on that high-school prom bandwagon.
Don’t they have any intelligent questions to ask him… perhaps about actual California politics rather than People Magazine?
Speaking of diplomacy and political acumen, Talleyrand was probably the smartest guy in the room (along with Mirabeau)in that 220-year old squabble. Of course he was slimy, but he was not crazy and stupid like most of the rest of them. And most importantly, he got things done rather than chasing his tail, and he managed to survive.
Napoleon was actually doing Talleyrand a favour when he called him that nasty name. He swore at him and dismissed him rather than executing him.
vernonvanderbilt
@HeteroDefenseLeague: Now you’re just being lazy.
PATRICK
LOOK WHO ALL SOUNDS LIKE BIGOTED, INTOLERANT HATEMEONGERS. AMAZING IT IS HOW OUR SIN BLINDS US SO FULLY AND COMPLETELY THAT WE CANT EVEN SEE THAT IT IS DARK. YOUR SIN IS YOUR MASTER AND YOU HAVE NO OTHER RECOURSE THAN TO OBEY IT IN ITS TREACHEROUS MASTERY OVER YOU. NOW IT IS NOT US BUT SIN THAT IS THE ENEMY. THAT IS WHAT CHRIST DIED TO OVERCOME. IT IS SIN THAT KILLS US, BUT CHRIST GIVES LIFE. YOU MEAN TO SAY YOU LOVE DEATH? THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE MESSAGE THAN THIS. JUST LOOK AND SEE. I DARE YOU.
Robert, NYC
Folks, closet cases Heterodefenseleague and Patrick could be the same person. The Journal of the Family Research Institute is a right wing religious cultist piece of garbage that skews legitimate research and scientific evidence to advance its hate agenda. Globally, per capita pedophilia and sexual crimes are far higher among the “wannabe” straights such as these two idiots who rant and spew their hatred here.
The fact that these two self-loathers surf the net to find gay blog sites is quite revealing and their protests are evidence of their utter desperation and frustration. They know deep down they are losing the cultural war. They are to be pitied and ridiculed for what they are, but they are hilarious and entertaining, you have to admit.
PATRICK
Robert, NYC; U MIGHT JUST “WIN” THE CULTURE WAR; HOWEVER, YOU WILL LOSE THE ETERNAL WAR. IF U R RIGHT, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. IF IF WRONG, YOU LOSE EVERYTHING, SINCE THIS IS ALL MERELY TEMPORAL ANYWAY. THE FOOL HAS SAID IN HIS HEART, THERE IS NO GOD.I GUARANTEE IT.
PATRICK
BESIDES, I DONT KNOW WHAT HETERODEFENSELEAGUE IS ANYWAY.
Truth_Seeker
Carrie Prejean is only 21, not exactly the epitome of a learned and experienced person. Considering the brazen, biased, ‘difficult to recover from and not seem cowardly and avoiding’ question she did well. Yes, a 25 or 30 yr. old politically astute person could have done better but all considered, she did well.
Truth_Seeker
Whether he had an agenda or not, it is hard to imagine that the much more socially adept (due to experience/maturity) Perez couldn’t have realized how his question wouldn’t leave Carrie uncomfortable and unpoised. It would have been difficult for a beautiful woman having Henry Kissinger’s skills to quickly and gracefull recover from that question. Which was, I think, Perez’s intent anyway… .
Truth_Seeker
Who had the greater burden ? …and of the 2 Carrie or Perez, who should have known better ?
HYHYBT
@Timmeeeyyy: Well, in a sense she *has* lost employment; she applied for the position of Miss USA and didn’t get it. (Free speech is wonderful, but tact is better at a job interview)
More than made up for by all the attention she’s gotten otherwise, though.
Robert, NYC
@PATRICK:
Patrick, since you are obviously a believer and believe in “the scriptures”, why is it that the majority of so called “christians” such as yourself deliberately ignore the bulk of other references in the bible while deliberately using Leviticus to justify discrimination against an entire group of people simply because your religious beliefs are offended? I refer you to http://www.fallwell.com in which you will find scriptural quotes that obviously are in conflict with your belief system, as well as Prejean’s. While I’m at it, civil marriage has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious marriage. Nor does it mandate procreation as a requirement of a marriage license. If procreation is going to be the primary reason to deny marriage equality, then by the same token, you must also ban straight couples who choose not to or cannot procreate from marrying. You can’t have it both ways.
I assume you believe in the creationst story in Genesis? If you do, then how did this planet become populated if Adam and Eve are purported to be the first parents of the human race? I would submit that they must have committed incest with their children and the siblings among themselves to achieve that, which would suggest that since most believers hold the scriptures as sacred, then they too must condone incest. You can’t simply cherry pick a reference here and there to suit your beliefs, you either believe it all or you don’t. Until the existence of a deity can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt, I will remain an avowed atheist.
wj
Well, after briefly reading all above posts, I have my conclusion. That is simple for you gays, having a different mind than you gays’ is bigotry to you, eh?How “open-mind” and “tolerant” you gays are! Most of you gays are same as bitchy Hilton.
OKay, whatever you gays are thinking, you just lost a supporter for your cause and I regret for voting against prop 8. Maybe you gays don’t care about my cast, that is fine. I am not going to support anyone who doesn’t oppose same-sex marriage.
BTW, I am not white, nor am I a Christian. I believe no God. But as long as you gays bully and humiliate anyone who don’t share your idea, you just lose my support. Thank you.
wj
And please allow me to ask all you guys, gays or not, a question:
Who of Mr.Hilton and Ms.Prejean will you prefer to be your neighbor, live in your next door, and have a talk everyday?
I have had my own choice. And if you choose Mr.Hilton, what I will greet you is only “good luck”. Thank you again.
Robert, NYC
WJ, who are you kidding? Do you think we really believe your bullshit? Why don’t you get a life and move on and quit trolling gay blog sites. Whoever you are, you really had no intention in supporting us. You’re just another shill for the right wing religious ingrates.
Its a bit rich accusing us of not being tolerant and openminded when it is Prejean and people like you who clearly aren’t tolerant let alone openminded. If that were the case, Prejean and other like her wouldn’t make such asinine remarks. She states..”in my country, marriage is between a man and a woman”…. Just who does she think she is claiming its “my country”. Why is it religious cults are allowed to damn and villify us based on their f–ked up beliefs yet when its our turn, they play the victim? Are we supposed to sit back and say nothing as they denigrate our lives with lies and fraudulent claims and use religious as a ruse to justify discrimination? They want it both ways, but its not going to happen. She should keep her religious to herself. If she’s that religious and believes in the bible as she claims she does, why did she enter a beauty pageant flaunting her wares in a skimpy swimsuit, contrary to what her bible dictates, the f–king air-head of a breeder hypocrite that she is.
Robert, NYC
I meant to have said “religious views” on the fifth line from the bottom of the last post, and “religion” in the fourth line.
Robert, NYC
@wj:
WJ, that’s a rather dumb question. Of course you’d rather be neighbor’s with Prejean, she’s straight and you probably have the hots for her anyway. Even if she had said something anti semitic, anti race, you would still pick her over us, you’re so transparent. What is your fascination with gay blog sites though? You could have easily posted your comment on a straight blog site to make your point. Why waste your time here?
wj
@Robert:
Thank you for your “nice” and “friendly” reply. What you show me is just another proof that you gays are absolutely no different than Mr.Hilton. That is it.
And for your question “Why waste your time here?” My answer is also simple and straight. I just want to see what you gays truly are by looking at Google blogs. Now I have known it and you are a very good example. I not only waste my time here to find you losers’ fanatic rants, but also find you gays absolutely not worth my support, never again.
Another point you missed is that I said “I believe no God” and I meant it. I have no religion and never read bible, so don’t judge me in your anti-religion way.
I had no objection to your idea of same-sex marriage and that was why I rejected Prop 8. In my home country where over 90% population are against gays, I was considered too liberal for them because of my support for gays’ rights. Now that is over. Thank you and you fellow gays’ childish action to mark me as “right-wing” and to make me re-consider my stand.
Robert, NYC
@wj:
WJ, this only goes to prove that you allow and accept bigoted comments by Prejean based on her religious beliefs but gays can’t criticize anyone’s religious beliefs even if they are harmful and in some instances incite violence towards us. Why should she get away with it and why should a person’s religious beliefs trump everybody else’s? If you really were supportive of our rights in the first place, you would realize that Prejean’s comments are what fuels the fire of discrimination against us as we saw with Proposition 8 and as a true friend you would have defended us, come what may, but you didn’t. This only proves that you were NEVER a true friend of our community in the first place, if you were, you wouldn’t let the Prejean debacle get in the way. Nobody buys into your views.
vernonvanderbilt
@wj: Look, if you were ever a true ally to begin with, you’d understand and appreciate the fact that we don’t look favourably upon those who would like to see us continue to be oppressed and treated like second-class citizens. The idea that a beauty pageant fiasco is enough to have changed your mind is pure proof that no matter what you may or may not have thought, you were never really on our side to begin with. That being the case, I can’t say I’m heartbroken that your true colours are on display now. You’re no better than the rest of our enemies, and we’re better off without the likes of you infiltrating the movement, as your only purpose is apparently to undermine the struggle for equality.
And whether you’re religious or not doesn’t matter. There are no rational, secular arguments against GLBT equality, so all you’re doing is buying into a system of oppression you claim not to follow. Maybe you don’t believe in it, but the stink of “gawd” is generously slathered over your every word.
Your time here is an exercise in futility. This is obvious, and that’s why you and your ilk are nothing more than trolls. Useless. Ignorant. Trolls.
wj
@Robert,
The nice change is that you don’t use “bulls***” “f******” words in your latest post. That is really rare in your gays’ posts.
And you again missed my words, “Maybe you gays don’t care about my cast, that is fine.” What I am telling you gays are “you just lose my support”.
Good bye you gays along with my sympathy with your cause. And good luck to you gays all.
Robert, NYC
@vernonvanderbilt:
Vernon, I couldn’t have said it better, thank you for that. You express and echo the points I was trying to make.
wj
@vernonvanderbilt,
Sorry, I just found your post and please let me have this replay before I leave.
No. I never was an “ally” to you gays or they anti-gays. I just had no objection to anyone because I had no idea what gays look like and who you are. I had no reason to be object to your gays idea or their anti-gays idea. And I never intended to be a “truly ally” to either side.
Now I have known it and decide what do it. Sorry it is not in your gays favor. And I understand that you may look at me as “enemy”. That is also fine, although I will never take any gay as “enemy”. And you can also trash my opinion as you gays trash everyone else’s, that is also fine and I don’t mind. You gays just lost my support and that is it. Everyone has his/her own choice, and this is my choice.
Good luck to you gays all again.
HeteroDefenseLeague
The problem with the typical Christians bashing, homosexist, heterophobic homosexual ignorant hate mongering fascist bigot is they are intolerant of anyones beliefs other than their own chosen sexual behaviors.
They constantly discriminate against minorities like Christians and resort to narrow minded, venomous hate and treat anyone who refuses to adopt their chosen lifestyle as second class citizens.
Society is tired of being victimized by hate mongering homosexual bigots. Heterosexuals just want their civil rights, the right to be left alone, the right to not have our blood supply infected by homosexuals who sue to infect the nations blood supply, homosexuals like ACT UP who sued to block responsible partner HIV notification laws as homosexuals wanted the right to serial murder with impunity, the right to not have our children forced into political indoctrination reeducation camps and bee brainwashed into the homosexual chosen lifestyle with psychological propaganda created by GLSEN, the right to not have our underage boys molested in pup tents when homosexual pedophiles sued for access to the genitals and rectums of Boy Scouts of American, the right to freedom of worship as homosexuals try to pass laws criminalizing religion and criminalizing opposition to the radical Homosexual Agenda.
sal
@wj: I am so pissed that you think i need your “support”!!!i am equal,i aint hurtin man-jack by being gay just like my black grandparents never hurt anyone in their time yet racist fools thought they were not equal!thank goodness for the ones who realized that “we are equal” and claimed it rightfully like im doing now!!!…so to you I DONT NEED YOUR SUPPORT,I DONT NED TO KISS YOU SHOES OR ANYTHING!!!…damn the arrogance of your crap
vernonvanderbilt
@HeteroDefenseLeague: Your vehemence is kinda sexy, babe. I bet you’re a real animal in the sack. When’s the last time the milkman came to your back door? Are you thirsty yet? Doesn’t the thought of that smoothe, white, creamy milk make you just want to guzzle some right now? Does the anticipation make your nipples pert?
PATRICK
Robert, NYC: This is not my belief system. It is as ancient as the first prophecy of a sin-bearing messiah, the very foreshadowing of Calvary’s cross with a blood sacrifice in the Garden at the very beginning of time. God provided the sacrifice of His choosing, skins to replace the fig leaves of the first religion, that is, man’s attempt to cover his sin with the substance of man’s own choosing. To be confused about the many, many differences of thought and opinion that differ from what I have stated is not surprising. The very problem is that all people throughout the world do not observe the timeless truths of the scriptures. Obviously, because of sin no one can come to these truths by oneself. The Bible says man is at enmity against God. No one CAN come to Him unless the Father draw him. The true definition of SIN is the CONDITION of being spiritually separated from God because of original sin, whereas the exact opposite, holiness, is to be reconciled TO God. These are conditions of existence. From these two primary conditions proceed the works, thoughts, desires, deeds, ideas, inventions, and all other machinations, purposes and responses of mankind throughout the ages. The Bible is very specific, but will not allow anyone to come to truth of any sort if the seeker is not first seeking God with a pure motive to trust Him for the understanding and the truth. The fact is that stupid “christianity” approaches the Bible as if it were a buffet, where one can choose some and refuse other texts. This is what the world finds unbelievable. It also in NOT honest Christianity.It is apparent that Fallwell.com falls into the same trap (the buffet), citing bible prooftexts to support its position, and the words and references of non-believers as props as well. The result of Christians and un-believers mishandling of the Word is equally corrupt. Considering the “incest” to populate the world, we see this through the filter of our cultural norms, descending from thousands of years of law, specifically the Law of God. Before the Law of God, these things were not illegal, or, “sin”. Besides, this type of “incest” as you put it, was not so, but the institution of marriage was in full operation, so that while a brother-sister marriage resulted in the procreation, it is far different from the filthy, lust-crazed incest of modern times. Being human, I dont have all the exact thoughts to articulate perfectly, and I certainly do not like plays on words. “Perhaps” in this way, God in his pre-law plan to populate the world, he allowed the relationship to be sanctified by Holy Matrimony. In addition, God, being perfect and Holy, would not and could not have employed any unclean method to carry out his will. That is what we men do. Finally, the word is not discrimination, but strong warning. Read Romans 7. It is not pretty, but this text may be akin to a kid gagging on his spinach. Not one of his favorite foods, pass the potatoes please. There are serious warnings agaist divorce and re-marriage as well. Absolutely no-go for any reason. But in today’s churches, the very Word of God is no longer a Divine Banquet, but a dismal buffet, where the participants bypass the strong food and head stright for the cheesecake.
vernonvanderbilt
@sal: I feel ya, buddy, but don’t let useless wastes of flesh like wj get you riled up. That’s all he wants. You’re better than that. We all are.
sal
@vernonvanderbilt: thankz i’m tryin,its just the the audacity of that fool!
sal
@PATRICK: the book of Leviticus verses 10-12:
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
Patrick i guess you never ate shell fish??huh?cause that’s an “abomination”
sal
@PATRICK: oh and look at this gem too
Exodus 21:7
about selling ones daughter in to slavery
sal
@PATRICK: Lev.21:17-23
Whosoever … hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. … Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.
HeteroDefenseLeague
Vernonvandebilt harassed:
“Your vehemence is kinda sexy, babe. I bet you’re a real animal in the sack. When’s the last time the milkman came to your back door? Are you thirsty yet? Doesn’t the thought of that smoothe, white, creamy milk make you just want to guzzle some right now? Does the anticipation make your nipples pert?”
Leave it to hate mongering, terroristic, ignorant, mean spirited, fascist, Christian bashing, homoexist, heterophobic, wrong headed, intolerant Christian bashing homosexuals to ALSO be sexist sexual harassers! But why am I not surprised when those that choose the statistically diseases ridden, statistically lifespan shortening homosexual lifestyle engage in sexual harassment crimes too? After all, the majority of serial killers and per capita child molesters are also homosexuals.
vernonvanderbilt
@HeteroDefenseLeague: I should have known. You’re impotent, aren’t you? It’s nothing to be ashamed of. It happens to lots of guys. It’s certainly nothing to kill yourself over…not that I’m in any way trying to plant an idea in that little head of yours, darling. You know I’ll always love you.
And imagine what you look like naked, but that’s another can of worms.
Alex
Just a quick reminder: we are currently in the middle of one of the 3 worst economic crises in our nation’s history, which is also a global crisis. We are still at war and up to our necks in shit in two countries. Almost daily we learn about new depths of the violations of human rights that were committed in our names. We have the worst and most expensive health care system in the developed world. Our entitlement system needs to be fixed. Global warming could literally wash away our world as we know it in our lifetimes. Also, for LGBTmericans, our ENTIRE federal agenda (DOMA, DADT, Hate Crimes, ENDA, etc.) needs to be passed (note, this doesn’t magically happen, we have to advocate for it). In California, there are lots of people working hard at the grassroots level to actually overturn Prop 8, rather than just bitch about it (they bitch about it too, but they’re also working).
On the other hand, this woman is a FUCKING BEAUTY QUEEN. Is this the fucking 1950s? I saw Perez Hilton on some news show, and I had check to make sure it wasn’t the Daily Show. The fact that anyone cares what she says is mind blowing. There are people from California who don’t believe in marriage equality. We already knew that. I did like the term “Opposite Marriage” and will use it from now on to refer to mixed-gender marriages.
Bruno
@HeteroDefenseLeague:
I often thought about bothering to make a list of serial & spree killers who were/are Christian. I wonder if the list would be longer than yours. I wonder.
geoff
@Robert, NYC: If I ever find my way to NYC and run into you, DRINKS ARE ON ME!!!!
geoff
@Bruno: No need to wonder. Look at any history book. The inquisition, the crusades, the Matthew Shepard case, there are actually Christian people who believe in equal rights, it’s just assholes like HDL who give them all a bad name.
geoff
@Bruno: Please don’t think I’m trying to discount what you said. My punctuation sucks. Just trying to bring up a point that not all Christians are against gays(altough with idiots like HDL, you could understand why people would think so). When it comes down to it, people who hide behind Jesus to be a narrow minded,bigoted asshole are not Christians at all. While I wouldn’t have the gall to try to speak for Him one way or the other. I can’t help but to believe as long as two people(regardless of gender or sexual identity)love each other, He would be pleased.
Robert, NYC
@HeteroDefenseLeague:
If you take the time to find out the orientation of criminals who commit acts of pedophilia, it might surprise you to know that the majority of them per capita are committed by heterosexual males and a few females. The reason why the church molestation scandal that also included the abuse of girls which you conveniently omit purported that the majority of the victims in that instance were males is easily explained. The vast majority of them were boys, all that were available to them. According to psychiatric evaluations of pedophiles, the majority of them are gender neutral in selecting their victims. Molesting someone of the same gender doesn’t always imply that the abuser’s sexual orientation is based on same-sex attraction, that is a scientific fact.
As for the spread of AIDS, pal….worldwide heterosexuals are responsible for the spread of the disease in Africa and the far east (Asia) because idiots such as the one in the Vatican refuse to allow condom distribution thereby becoming complicit in mass genocide. If AIDS were a “gay” disease, straights wouldn’t contract it you moron. Its tantamount to saying that cancer is a straight disease just because more straights per capita succumb to it simply because there are more of them in the world.
I’m beginning to suspect that you are a very angry, bitter, closet case. Its quite revealing that you sought out Queerty to post your comments. How did you manage to find it I wonder and you seem to be spending a great deal of time here. Prurient interest perhaps?
Robert, NYC
@geoff:
Geoff, thanks, where are you exactly?
Ryan
Am I the only one who is completely unable to take people seriously, whether gay or anti gay when they mistake words like temporary and temporal? Honestly all this is proving is just how much work the educational system in America is going to need. Grammar people.
Also, for the record, Why is it so many of our “allies” and vehemently antigay nutjobs cruise the gay websites that seem to produce more skin than news? me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
Truth_Seeker
In a world with so much knowledge, isn’t it surprising that there is so much doubt, contention and confusion ? Think about that. Reflect on why… . Why ?
There is much to be grateful for ! We could be living in India where people are struggling for a meal or in other 3rd world countries where food is scarce, where 1 in 500 has a car and you are doing well with a dirt floor in a one room, straw roofed shack. We have so much more here, not to mention beds, PCs, game consoles, restaurants, gymns, groceries, superstores, warm beds, access to and the ability to pay for a doctor’s basic care
But has it ever been true that the possession of things and of power – even of food – has ever granted anything but security of survival and brief satisfaction except when used to help someone else in need, in an unselfish act of charity ?
Knowledge of facts, even the knowledge of certain truths is most often meaningless to the issues of happiness, true joy and peace because those facts do not arm us with that which is needful to have that which is most coveted. Knowledge is power but that knowledge which gives peace, meaning and true happiness must not only be known, it must be used for good and the person using it must know through experience or through another that it will lead to good.
In the end, it is what we do, the actions we take and things we say that not only define who we are – our character – and how we are known and but how we and others view ourselves and how we feel about what we have done or not done, for good or otherwise.
We all know when we have done good and the more often we do good, the more we experience satisfaction, happiness and peace.
You probably know that the key is not only doing what we inherently know is basically good but being able to discern and know what we should do in the more complex issues. Choosing contrary to what we know is right on any level will lead to unhappiness, lack of peace and disillusionment. I know it is easy to lose confidence in others because of their poor decisions but we have ever had power over our own paths and choices. Yes, financial happenstance and it’s heartache can start us on a path as can our other decisions but as we counteract through choice, the wrong path can be halted and changed. In the end, we often but not always must choose between happiness and peace and the easy road to security; the choices are always ours but the consequences of those choices in our life most often cannot be avoided. We choose what we want the most and then we must live with it !
The doubt, contention and confusion are because there are so many facts mixed with truth and we do not know which, of the truths there are, will lead us, when practiced, to the coveted end.
PATRICK
SAL; YOU ARE DELVING INTO SCRIPTURES WHERE EVEN MOST THOELOGIANS SHOULD NOT GO; THIS STUFF IS CONCERNING THE CEREMONIAL LAW, SOMETHING OF WHICH YOU RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER. ALSO, YOU MAY NOT HAVE READ MY EARLIER WRITING IN WHICH I SHARED THIS TO ROBERT, NYC, POSTED 4/25:
The Bible is very specific, but will not allow anyone to come to truth of any sort if the seeker is not first seeking God with a pure motive to trust Him for the understanding and the truth. The fact is that stupid “christianity” approaches the Bible as if it were a buffet, where one can choose some and refuse other texts. This is what the world finds unbelievable. It also in NOT honest Christianity.It is apparent that Fallwell.com falls into the same trap (the buffet), citing bible prooftexts to support its position, and the words and references of non-believers as props as well. The result of Christians and un-believers mishandling of the Word is equally corrupt.
IF YOU WILL LOOK INTO THE NEW TESTAMENT, ACTS CH.10 VERSES 9-16, GOD TOLD PETER TO RISE, PETER, AND EAT; FOR WHAT GOD HAS CLEANSED, CALL NOT THOU COMMON.
AGAIN IN 1 TIMOTHY 4:1-5, THE WARNING IS THAT IN THE LATTER TIMES OF FALSE DOCTRINES AND PEOPLE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH, THAT SOME WILL SAY THAT WE SHOULD AVOID EATING CERTAIN FOODS. IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE DOING? THE VERY NEXT PART OF THE TEXT SAYS THAT ALL THINGS ARE GOOD AND NOTHING TO BE REFUSED IF EATEN IN AN ATTITUDE OF THANKFULNESS. THIS IS A LAME PROOFTEXT TO USE FOR A PARALLEL OF LIFESTYLE JUSTIFICATION.
REGARDING THOSE WITH VARYING BLEMISHES AND DEFECTS NOT PERMITTED TO COME NIGH THE ALTAR, THE VEIL OR THE SANCTUARY; ALL ARE A PARABLE TO WHAT WE IN OUR NATURAL SINFUL CONDITION ARE SPIRITUALLY. IT IS CHRIST WHO HEALS US OF ALL OF THESE WHEN HE GIVES US NEW LIFE. IT IS FINISHED HE SAID AS HE DIED, THEN THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS TORN, INDICATING THAT, NOW AS THEN THE TEMPLES HAVE NO SUCH VEIL,INDICATING ALL BAR NONE, WERE ALLOWED TO COME BOLDLY TO THE VERY THRONE ROOM OF GRACE, NOT BY CLEANING OURSELVES UP, BUT BY HIS RIGHTEOUS WORKS ARE WE JUSTIFIED.
strumpetwindsock
@PATRICK:
Patrick, that passage in Romans wasn’t about divorce, it was about a person being sujbect to the law of god for his entire life. They just used marriage as a metaphor. Go read it again.
The Anglicans who edited that version of the bible, and the openly bisexual King James who was reponsible for it being published, PERMITTED DIVORCE. THe passage is referring to archaic law – like the bible’s polygamous marriage tradition that that modern born-agains curiously aren’t too quick to follow.
You have a right to your beliefs, but you know, if anyone in here feels inspired I think they know where to find a copy of the bible. Frankly you’re being annoying. Why don’t you go and knock on some doors somewhere.
At least on someone’s doorstep you probably won’t resort to screaming at them in your all-caps text.
PATRICK
SAL; NOT ONLY DID GOD CHANGE THE CEREMONIAL LAW IN ALLOWING THE FOODS TO BE EATEN; THE CEREMONIAL LAW, WHICH WAS THE SYSTEM THAT THE JEWS LOOKED AHEAD TO THE FUTURE COMING OF MESSIAH, WAS COMPLETELY FULFILLED BY CHRIST, WHO BEING THE VERY AUTHOR OF THE LAW, CERTAINLY WAS ABLE TO PERFECTLY KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, YET SINLESSLY. THIS IS PRECISELY WHY HE ALONE IS COMPLETELY TRUSTWORTHY TO FULLY TRUST OUR ETERNAL FUTURE AND VERY BEING, ALONG WITH OUR RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD THE FATHER ON THE MERITS OF JESUS, OUR SACRIFICE, OUR SUBSTITUTE.
YOUR REFERENCE TO THE TEXTS ARE ALL OF THE LAW, WHICH EXEMPLIFIES THE FACT THAT THERE IS SO MUCH TO DO AND NOT TO DO, NO ONE COULD KEEP IT PERFECTLY. THROW INTO THE MIX OUR SIN NATURE, AND NOW NO ONE WILL KEEP IT, EVEN WERE HE ABLE. MORE REASONS FOR OUR NEED OF THE SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.
SAL, BELIEVING DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE BETTER THAN ANOTHER. IT JUST MEANS YOU RECIEVE A NEW NATURE THAT HATES SIN AND WANTS TO BE MORE CHRIST-LIKE. IT TAKES A LIFETIME WATCHING THE LORD PICK UP THE BROKEN PIECES AND CAST THEM INTO THE SEA OF HIS FORGETFULNESS. ITS AWESOME.
strumpetwindsock
@PATRICK:
And your comment about the temple veil no longer being necessary is simply your interpretation. It is not in the bible any more than the notion of the earth being 6,000 years old is in the bible.
Didn’t Paul write a little warning at the very end of your book to people who try to pass off things that aren’t actually written in there?
strumpetwindsock
@PATRICK:
Hold on. If you dismiss sal’s examples as laws that are only there to show that we cannot help but break the law, why is is not so important that we obey those ones, yet the ones you cite are absolutely vital to our salvation?
I’m a bit short on cash this week. How about I obey God by selling my kids and let Jesus save me for missing the laws you’re harping about?
vernonvanderbilt
@PATRICK: In all honesty and seriousness…do you actually think you’re changing anyone’s mind with your OBNOXIOUSLY ALL CAPS blather? I have to tell you, you monotheists…I pity you people. Your conception of the divine is but a fragment of the real thing. You oversimplify the true nature of the Universe, and then you put together a nonsensical little book to re-complicate it.
Don’t get me wrong; I understand why this is appealing to you folks. Spiritually weak humans thrive on dogma, whether it be religious, political, or social. It feels good to be part of something larger than yourself, to feel like you fit into society on some level. Likewise, it feels good to have a well-defined “other” to call your enemy (or not call your enemy, if you’re in denial about that).
The fact that you have to call certain statements “parables” to make them more palatable is bad enough, but also to engage in wild, self-serving conjecture (re: population-producing biblical incest) is irresponsible at best, laughable at worst. Believe it or not, it’s okay to admit that there are some concepts in one’s chosen belief system which aren’t comfortable to explore. That’s more intellectually honest than making half-hearted attempts at justification or presuming to speak on behalf of your chosen deity regarding its intent.
I’m sure you’re very sincere and certain in your beliefs. If it makes you happy…good for you. But shame on you if you decide to twist that happiness in order to bring unhappiness to others.
A couple of little suggestions for your posts, also:
1. Writing in all capital letters is akin to shouting. Being preachy is bad enough; being LOUD and preachy is a surefire way to accomplish nothing.
2. There’s a difference between believing you’re right and assuming you’re right. The latter is significantly more obnoxious than the former. I’d recommend you write your posts in a word processor before posting them. This will give you time to read them over and rewrite (if necessary) to ensure clarity, tone, and logic, as well as give you a chance to cool off a bit if you’re getting riled up. I recommend giving it a shot.
No, I don’t agree with you on much, if anything. I’ll even admit to harboring more than my fair share of animosity toward people like yourself (not christians, but ridiculously preachy and bigoted christians). If you’re honestly looking for a discussion, it’s not hard to find. But if you’re only interested in preaching, you should probably face facts and admit to yourself that you’re wasting your time here.
Truth_Seeker
I will leave, for now, these few thoughts…
There are those who believe there is and cannot be a God, those who are not sure and those who believe or know there is a God who knows all and who is just and who cares for us all.
Please notice how I used the words believe and know, it was not accidental or careless.
The world was turned on it’s head with the advancement of Darwin’s theories on evolution and other advancements in biology and physics. There are certainly many theories that are taught as fact, I have certainly attended enough college to know that !
What most take for granted and few challenge is the exclusion of ‘other very relevant facts’ that exist in the form of a wealth of information reported by others, much of which is first hand and documented by pictures and testing which ‘shreds in pieces’ much of the theory and which is irresponsibly dismissed or rationalized away. Granted, the documenters are sometimes eccentric and not all is solid irrefutable fact, but there is so much of solid fact that most of it cannot be ‘explained away’ reasonably. When these truths are compared to the ‘theories’ taught in school, ‘Reason’ stares in disbelief ! Often it is our eccentricities which allowed us to think ‘outside of the box’ so that we might discover more truth. There are many with a vast agenda who want to believe a certain way and who will drag whoever they can with them because they cannot accept or understand the truths that confuse them and so they ignore them and hurt others with falsehood and theories which cannot account for all of the truth. Explore ! Open Your Minds ! This will make many uncomfortable. I refer you to http://www.s8int.com and David Hatcher Childress’s writings on ‘The Lost Cities and Ancient Mysteries…’ series for North, Central and South America and Europe and Asia. Explore this thoroughly and objectively and then tell me how sure you are about Darwin, his theories and man’s age…
There is exceedingly strong reasoning which explains the seeming indifference of a just God to all the suffering in the world which I will not go into here for time and topic reasons.
Know this, all is not relative ! There are absolute truths and we can know them; we can know that they are true and we can have that happiness and peace which so few, comparatively, have but it comes with a price and a heavy responsibility and only those who seek it with all of hearts can have it. Think on these things.
PATRICK
@strumpetwindsock: You obviously are biased toward the authorized version; you malign the one who ordained the translation thereby trashing the whole text. nice try. or should i say nice trick. There is no such law allowing polygamy, but in the olt testament as well as the new, it, like divorce was not in God’s design. YES Romans 7 is the perfect parallel between man and the law, and man and a wife. The only way one could be separated from another is only be the death of one. When Christ gives us new life, we are now dead to the requirements of the Law and free to marry another, which in the Biblical sense, the (true)church is the bride of Christ.
There is a dialogue going on here, as you obviously have replied to it. Someone out there will find a gold nugget in all of this.
The mockers and scoffers against God will not though. Where are you in this?
PATRICK
@vernonvanderbilt: ok ok now i am lower case. good . i didnt realize i wuz in all caps. sorry.
PATRICK
@vernonvanderbilt: For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them who are perishing, but to us which are saved it is the power of God.
Don’t shoot me, the messenger. You are really aiming at God. It is God the Lord that you have your quarrel with, along with your misconceptions, worldly fables seeming to disprove the Bible, and pre-concieved notions. As I said before, our sinful nature is what keeps us from getting real with God. His word says what it says, and it is you who twist it in order to avoid accountability to it. Why would I waste my time giving you a corrupted version of truth, when the very effort to save a drowning victim is to throw the life ring as directly and with as much skill as possible. It would only be an enemy who would try to thwart God’s saving someone by giving false doctrines to trip up on.
strumpetwindsock
I’m not maligning anyone. I am just pointing out that the man who commissioned and oversaw the publishing of your authorized version was a devout, God-fearing bisexual man.
I have no problem at all with King James’s sexuality at all. Do you?
And nice try yourself. You say there is no law instituting polygamy. I say there is no law forbidding it in the bible. But, several of the great figures in the Bible, including Abraham, had more than one wife and concubines. God tested him by seeing if he would kill his son, yet he wouldn’t tell him polygamy is forbidden? I doubt it.
In fact there are several passages in the bible in which a man can take a spouse and under certain conditions change his mind and divorce. Deuteronomy 21 and 24, for example.
I’m not scoffing at God, but at you, my dear.
PATRICK
@strumpetwindsock:
Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
It is good to read the context, not just a verse. Go ahead and try it. Something even more religious people should do.
The Flood is Cumming
Why waste your time with HeteroDefenseLeague/Patrick/WJ/Truth_Seeker
They’re obviously self-loathing closet cases. They jerk off to gay porn and then in guilt for craving dick, spout their bullshit on here.
strumpetwindsock
I know how the passage goes. There is no clear interpretation.
For all you know it was a foreshadowing of the destruction of the temple, a simple demonstration of God’s anger, or one of the many miracles that later writers like Luke added on to the gospels.
The earliest gospel, Mark’s had no resurrection whatsoever, as you may know. It was added on much later.
You may feel it means something, but there is a difference between that and creating a religious dogma around that – that the barrier to the holy of holies no longer exists because of Jesus. Sorry, but you made that bit up. It is not in the bible.
Again, the 6,000 years thing, and the presumed ban on homosexuality are interpretations of things which are not as crystal clear as some make them out to be.
strumpetwindsock
@The Flood is Cumming:
Yeah, I know, but I it helps to see if I can remember those old sunday school lessons now and then.
I have no expectation that I’ll be changing anyone’s mind. I wish he realized the same.
Anyway, I htink I’m off to bed.
TANK
I wouldn’t call them closet cases (with the exception of heterodefenseleague and his reliance on pseudo scientific propaganda…it seems like it’s struggling with its sexuality). They’re definitely mentally unstable, though. Religious zealots who, unable to justify their miraculous fairytales in any coherent rational way, resort to quoting scripture ad nauseam in an unintelligent strategy to avoid making an argument to back up their absurd opinions.
Of course, that can be said of people like strumpet, too, who are lending support to their contentions, though perhaps indirectly, by minimizing this bigoted beauty queen’s despicable position.
This isn’t about an interpretation of a storybook (everyone’s interpretation seems equally valid, and there’s no higher court to settle the disputes…)…this is about it being a fictional tale. Circular arguments are logically invalid. Do you know what that means? Google it ;), and get yourself a little education for free…
Another tactic we see touted by religious and ultra nationalist propagandists is to label those a bigot who label you a bigot. They have nothing to back it up, of course, but repeating the lie until it’s believed. It’s an hilariously base propaganda tactic that has be used by just about every nationalist political faction since well before the nazis made excellent use of it in demonizing everyone who disagreed with them, and who called them…what they were.
PATRICK
@strumpetwindsock: Research the veil of the temple in the old testament.
Then please do your homework when you recite the hearsay and talking points of your community.
Then see Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as you do with womankind; it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lie also with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood be upon them.
1 Kings 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord cast out before the children of Israel.
Romans 1:24-27 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
For this cause Gos gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and recieving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
This is the result of a bi-sexual King James ordering this KJV translation? He must have been drunk, or out of town when it was proofread, edited and published.
TANK
See what I mean? The unstable zealots quote scripture as if that makes their case (presuppositionalists, anyway). Everyone’s got the true faith, or true religion, or true dogma…there’s no way to settle it other than to just repeat the faith…mindlessly quoting scripture is used as an excuse to not think, as you can see. Even those passages don’t have an agreed upon meaning in all of christianity (and to use those to refute King James I’s bisexuality…well, that’s about as intelligent as using the bible to assert that the earth’s flat–which it states)…it’s a bad joke. And further, it’s been edited and rewritten so many times over the centuries that there’s absolutely no way to verify whether or not any of the accounts we have access to reflect the original written stories or “accounts”.
getreal
@TANK: As someone who spent her childhood reading scripture and whose very religious parents taught her homosexuality was not a sin just a way you are born. There is virtually no scriptural basis that being gay is a sin and people who quote scripture always quote the same man must not lay down with a man BS. What they don’t tell you is the next sentence says that to eat shrimp is a sin. Why don’t they spend their time boycotting Red Lobster? It is all so silly.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
What’s that?
I counter his arguments by showing that he’s not following the word of his own book so I am “lending support to his contentions”?
In the first place, you did the very same thing, making reference to the bible in your last post (#93).
In the second place it’s a bit more mature and ethical than the tactic you used against me when you didn’t have a real argument – registering a copy of my name and making posts pretending to be me.
And in the third place, I do not support his contentions. Read my words; don’t just make up whatever shit you feel like.
Now I know you and I disagree on a fair bit. The difference is I seem to manage to live with the knowledge that some people can hold different ideas than me and still be allies in the greater good. You seem to have a paranoid mistrust of any deviation from your dogma.
And we actually do have original versions of some very important parts of the Bible. I had thought you might be familiar with the Torah. And there are versions of New Testament scripture that are intact enough to show there has clearly been mistranslation (though even reading scripture with a misunderstanding of of words like “sin” is worse than a bad translation).
strumpetwindsock
@PATRICK:
Yeah, I know what it says in Hebrews, a later book.
There were a lot of anecdotes, miracles and interpretations added to the bible which were not in the original version. That is a very convenient way of invalidating the core of Jewish belief – the temple. Of course new christians would want to say that.
As a matter of fact Jesus never told anyone to worship him or make a church in his name.
anon
Patrick – just for fun, look at all the things in Leviticus and elsewhere that are ALSO listed as abominations.
Abomination in contemporary english takes on a much more menacing tone than apparently it did when translating the Bible.
Jaroslaw
Sorry, that was me above- in case you miss the point, I think eating shellfish, having sex with a menstruating woman etc. lots of things are abominations, but I would hardly think your salvation was in jeopardy for doing such things. So perhaps a man lying with a man wasn’t so terrible after all. And it almost certainly had to do with “wasting seed” on unprocreative sex, not that homosexuality was forbidden by itself. I could go on, but either you want to know the truth or you don’t.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
No, the difference is you mischaracterize my posts. Read above…do you deny that you have minimized the homophobia (denying that she’s bigoted in other comments) of carrie prejean?
It was a beauty contest, not a testimony meeting. She was supposed to say something diplomatic and she failed, utterly.
Seems like minimization to me. And by all means have a differing opinion…just be able to credibly defend it.
TANK
Even if lots of things weren’t abominations (children that talk back to their parents should be stoned to death…and it’s an abomination to wear two different kinds of fabric), that doesn’t speak one word to whether or not homosexuality is an abomination, i.e., the truth of the bible. So whatever the bible says and the truth of what it says are completely distinct, and it doesn’t matter if this person’s a cafeteria christian (picking and choosing which verses to follow while disobeying others)–none of his beliefs in christianity are justified (or true). That’s what this douchenozzle can’t establish.
This applies to its moral teachings just as much as to any other false claims made in the bible (e.g., that pi=3, the earth is flat, etc. etc. etc.).
Robert, NYC
@Jaroslaw:
Jaroslaw, regarding the “wasting seed” notion. I wonder how the same religious zealots would react to seed not fertilizing the ovary inside a female, meaning the male’s sperm count perhaps wasn’t sufficient for the female to conceive. Would that too I wonder be construed as wasted seed? That whole procreation argument within marriage is deeply flawed. There are millions of heterosexuals who can’ proceate or refuse to within marriage. What do they say to that then, annul their marriages or ban them from marrying anyway?
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Yes I deny it.
How many times have I had to tell you I consider her comments homophobic and stupid? Yet you and Gay Numbers continue to lie and say I am excusing her.
If you want me to and walk you through this one… anybody reading that comment in context would realize it is directed at Prejean, pointing out that there was no reason for her to grandstand and make a declaration of faith like she was in a prayer meeting, when what was required was a diplomatic answer.
How you cooked up the notion that I was on her side is beyond me, though it does not surprise me, since you have never let logic, the truth, nor ethics get in the way of a personal attack.
Though you mention minimization. I don’t excuse anything she has said, but I wouldn’t assign her the same degree of culpability as some homophobes. But then again, some people would say anyone who even talks to her deserves to hang for it.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Actually, since you stated it in black and white, I’ll call you on it.
I challenge you to find one post in which I say she is not a bigot.
And I mean me, not that puppet-name (STRUMPETWINDSOCK) you registered .
Otherwise I would ask you to be honourable enough to apologize to me for your libel, and shut the fuck up about it.
And it looks like you do a little bit of peering at the good book yourself , though maybe it’s just with a flashlight under the covers so no one will see.
Rob
@HeteroDefenseLeague:
If you really believe that many “homosexuals” are serial killers, you’d be too afraid to come to this site….unless of course you think that you, yourself, might be a serial killer.
Nathan
Truth_seeker (what an ironic pseudonym), Patrick and all the monodeist apologists:
I grew up in South Texas the son of two teachers. My father’s family was all Catholic, and he converted to marry my mother, a converted Methodist. My mother’s side of the family was Presbyterian and I went to a Lutheran parochial school for kindergarten, opting for public school when my parents decided my two-years-older brother wasn’t getting a proper education and transferred us both.
I spent Sundays attending the early service as a choir member throughout my adolescence, plus Sunday School, an evening service and MYF (Methodist Youth Fellowship) activities each Sunday evening. Choir practice on Wednesdays. I attended festivals, revivals, evangelistic and emergency relief missions into Mexico, youth conferences, summer camp, conference wide Choir Rallies, events and projects at the local Good Neighbor Settlement House, for which my father was a repeated President. I was a born again Christian, “witnessing” at church, on missions in Mexico and throughout Texas and the South, as well as the local Lutheran youth ‘coffee shop’ with the rest of the evangelical staff.
That doesn’t even include the stuff with my Presbyterian cousins (First Presbyterian Church), Catholic cousins (Sacred Heart, Immaculate Conception parishes) grandparents, great aunts and uncles, extended family (La Primera Iglesia Presbeteriana Mexicana) and the Presbyterian, Episcopal, Lutheran and Methodist holidays, festivals and Vacation Church Schools. (One summer I spent two weeks each in Methodist, Presbyterian and Lutheran versions. Only overlapping schedules prevented my attendance at the Episcopalian one, too.)
I was immersed in the culture. I know it, lived it, breathed it for the first score years of my life. Having seen so many flavors of the same story, both my parents’ conversions from their original doctrines, the merger between the Methodist Church and the Evangelical United Brethren yielding the United Methodist Church, and a plethora of other details just underscore the nature of what I now call pick-and-choose mysticism.
It astounds me to no end the arrogance among “true believers” in presuming that all one need is to be openly exposed to the tenants of their chosen for it to become uncompromisingly irresistible. I tried to believe the Christian party line for decades. The early age indoctrination made it extremely difficult to shake off when it finally became apparent to me that the Abrahamic tradition is based on archaic, deluded wishful thinking, all failed attempts to explain the workings of the Universe. The scientific method is about developing theories based on empirical evidence, and proving those theories true or false relying of further evidence derived by experimentation. There is nothing about religion that offers anything remotely equal, much less superior. to the scientific method in attempting to explain the way things are.
The good news is that dogmatists eventually die out, as with all evolutionary paradigms, as they fail to adapt.
Mikeocracy
@PATRICK:
How do you know *you* are going to win the “eternal war”? You’re taking just as much of a risk as we are by worshiping one deity over the perhaps hundreds of thousands of deities that have been worshiped since the beginning of humankind. And on that note, if you’re so angry about people not respecting your religion by worshiping your god and doing it the way you do it, perhaps you should also be angry at the billions of other people on the planet who are either non-Christian or who practice Christianity in a way completely different from you. You’re really grasping at straws here.