“can we just get clear, calling some one ‘gay’ or ‘fag’ is as derogatory as calling someone a ‘nigger’. U look like an idiot when you do it” —Former model, television star, and celebrity husband Ashton Kutcher, on his freakin’ Twitter [via SoVo]
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John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
I think I’m gonna join his twitter!?
jake
I feel a pinch every time I hear “That’s so gay” or “That’s gay” I feel like a “Nigger”
Chitown Kev
fag or faggot = Nigger all day long for me. No exceptions.
If someone were to say I was gay, that’s cool. If you were to describe a possession of mine (or anyone else’s) or an action that I take, then that’s offense. With the word “gay”, it all depends on the way you use it.
Chitown Kev
[REWIND] “fag or faggot = nigger all day long for me. No exceptions.” Should never be capped either.
hardmannyc
I wont accept anything he writes, only from his own lips. To mine. Locked.
kevin (not that one)
I love the phrase “I’m so gay for you.”
I’ve got to remember to say it more.
Some examples:
“I’m so gay for Rachel Maddow.”
“I’m so gay for CB2.”
“I’m so gay for American Dad.”
“I’m so gay for some warm, sunny weather.”
Andrew Triska
The parallels between the two words are striking. For instance, queer people (including Queerty) continue to use the words “fag” and “faggot” as terms of affection within the community, just as the black community embraced “nigga.” So let’s open this up to discussion: is this positive? I think it is – I’d eventually like to see the word “fag” reclaimed by the queer community just as “queer” was.
Chitown Kev
@Andrew Triska:
excuse me, the black community did not embrace it, certain segments of the black community embraced the use of the word. I don’t allow the word used around me, ever. I know many blacks who feel the same way.
Sebbe
@David – I just added you and Kutcher on Twitter, I keep forgetting too. YOu need to tweet more.
kevin (not that one)
I’ve heard too many straight men and women use the term “fag” thinking it was cool to use around their gay friends to ever believe that I will like that word. It’s one of those words that either everyone should use, or no one should use. And since I realized that I was okay with using it in certain contexts, but very uncomfortable hearing it from others in different situations – I stopped using it completely because I don’t want to encourage its use.
I do use queer on occasion, but I also know plenty of LGBTs who hate the term. I’m of a generation that grew up reclaiming the word and using it in a radical liberation context. So it has a different meaning for me. But I also know many gay men who grew up being called queer who hate that word, just like I hate the word “fag/faggot”.
Why, even today I think I probably got called “faggot” by garbage truck drivers who were commenting in my direction. However, I wear my iPod everywhere I go so that I don’t have to hear things that are directed my way.
Kid A
Hearing the word thrown your way while at the verge of physical assault tends to ruin any charm the word had.
Sebbe
@kevin (not that one) – Just today someone yelled that at you? Not 1982? I’m sorry. It makes my blood boil.
kevin (not that one)
@Sebbe: Not yelling…just remarking in my direction.
I dress pretty flashy, even for SF. I could be paranoid though. They might have been commenting on my package (these Levi’s are pretty tight)!
🙂
Sebbe
@kevin (not that one) – Hey maybe they were flirting then. lol
afrolito
@Andrew Triska:
The “black community” has not embraced nigga, so please don’t presume to speak for any of us.
As far as what Ashton said, he’s an idiot. A well meaning one, but still an idiot. Calling someone gay or fag is not the the equivalent of NIGGER in any way, shape, or form.
Natt
@afrolito:
Are you saying that black people have more right to be offended by gerogatory terminology than other, historically oppressed, groups within society?
jake
@afrolito: faggot isn’t like nigger? That’s right actually. Faggot is the new “nigger,” which started when Bush took office. So the hate has moved on to new territory.
jake
The irony is racism with homosexual groups. Makes me shake my head in disbelief.
getreal
@afrolito: I think he was making an anaology. I’m part of the black community and it does not seem different to me (i mean obviously there are differences in the communities and the history and struggles of those communities). How is it different? Isn’t a slur a slur. Not meaning to offend genuinely interested in your opinion.
@jake: I promise you people still hate black people too.
getreal
so @Andrew Triska: For a lot of people in the black community it has never been and will never be a reclaimed word. Unfortunately people in the community mostly low income and educationally marginalized people have gotten into the habit of using the n word. I don’t know anyone who likes it black or white.
Chitown Kev
@getreal:
Thank you, it’s a class issue. You’d have to poll black LGBTs on this, to be syre, but nigger and faggot are the same to me, period.
Jason
i think we all need to get over these “words”. they are words that don’t hurt me and shouldn’t hurt anyone in the LGBT world. i would be more upset if a friend or relative called me a “loser” than if a stranger called me “faggot”. someone who doesn’t know me has no effect on me.
Sebbe
@Jason- I agree but, we have to remember that some youth were brought up being taunted by this words. To them, every time someone calls them it again, it might bring back all those negative feelings from their youth.
getreal
@Jason: Well that is you for some people those words hurt them and they can’t change their history because of your opinion. Many people endured a lot of abuse and violence while that word was used against them so saying well it “shouldn’t” hurt hurt anyone is pretty insensitive. Based on your life it doesn’t hurt you other people are shaped by their experiences.
Chitown Kev
@Sebbe:
And some of us still have to put up with it.
I went home to Detroit for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago. All my nieces and nephews are teenagers now, and I had been estranged from my family, so I couldn’t say that I really knew them MIA uncle.
My niece is one of the sweetest, smartest young persons you will ever meet but I heard her tell one of her friends, “That’s so gay.”
I locked my eyes into her instantly and she knew what she had said and apologized. Now I think maybe if I had been in her life more over the years, she would not have said that. But she knows now, and that’s a good thing.
Chitown Kev
@Jason:
I kind of sort of get your point, I am not going to clutch pearls or anything if someone calls me the f-word as I’m walking down the street but I’m not stopping what I’m doing. I’ll keep walking and mind my business. But when it’s someone that you know (and I hear it a lot with family) then, yes, it hurts. A lot.
Sebbe
@Chitown Kev – I think the important thing with friends and family is to let them know, either visually or verbally. If nothing else, hopefully they will stop and think about it. It doesn’t have to be an attack, just to let them know you don’t appreciate it. I don’t really experience it often, but seems logical to me. Sounds like you did the right thing.
afrolito
I love how everyone here is putting words into Ashton’s mouth. He used the terms ‘gay’ and ‘fag’…..not faggot. Some of you are clearly projecting your own childhood traumas over a word he never used, but apparently still stings. I get it.
However, I satnd by what I said. The terms ‘gay’ (wtf?) and ‘fag’ are not comparable to NIGGER. The white gays need to get over themselves, because gay will never be the new NIGGER, as long as people of color continue to suffer the all too real effects of institutional racism. Sorry, but despite the pats on the back, Barack did not end racial discrimination. One only needs to casually browse this site, to realize how deep rooted racism is in the gay white community.
Alyssa W.
I think the analogy is accurate, but I understand how some people don’t feel like the plights of both communities can really be compared. I don’t think it’s accurate, however, to say that only black people in lower socioeconomic classes use the n word, because it’s a term that’s used much wider than that within the black community. But just like faggot, queer, dyke, and other terms within the queer community – some people like them and some people don’t. I don’t think it’s a class issue, and to say it is oversimplifies the issue. I think you would find more meaningful trends with the use of reclaimed words (both for the black and queer communities) if you look at things like age, geographic location, rural v. urban, etc.. which can be tied to socioeconomic class but not always.
Chitown Kev
@afrolito:
Dude, I ain’t white, and I find both words equally disgusting and hateful. I don’t want anyone black or white using either word with me. Just my position.
Gay is more dependent on context.
If anyone clicks on the link, Ashton said this in a specific context which is quite alright with me.
afrolito
@Chitown Kev:
Oh puleeze, you’re so full of it on every level. I haven’t said one thing hateful or disgusting. Of course, since you can’t refute any of the facts i’ve stated, you pull out the reverse discrimination crap card. Nice try, but no sale dude.
What context is being called gay dependent on??
Once again…puleeze.
getreal
Hey guys you are both making intelligent points let’s leave the fighting to the idiots on these threads. You can both be counted on to push the dialogue forward. Oh and there isn’t really such a thing as reverse discrimination if one person discriminates against another whatever their race it is discrimination.
Coffee&Chicory
@afrolito:
And how is homophobia in the United States not institutional?
In the most basic contexts of the slurs, they are both specific, biting attacks, fueled by hatred and disgust. I find no excuse, not a single one for using them against someone.
Chitown Kev
@afrolito:
Read the fucking Southern Voice link, fool. He was called a slur “a gay something-or another’ about a goddamn punching bag by someone on Twitter and responded in kind with this statement.
Chitown Kev
@afrolito:
Now if you said I was gay, I would find nothing offensive about that. “That’s so gay,” is offensive.
I apologize for getting pissed, but IMO, both are equally offensive. I am not pulling out any sort of card, I don’t make a choice of whether the black part of me is more oppressed or the gay part is or none of that bullshit, and I get so pissed of when especially black LGBTs want to pose piece of shit false dilemma.
Chitown Kev
@Coffee&Chicory:
My point of view, exactly.
afrolito
@Coffee&Chicory:
You really want to compare and contrast the plight and history of black people in this country, with that of gay people?? Really??
Once again, gay people are not as homogenous as the white gay elite like to perpetuate in the media. Many of us are people of color, who have far greater issues like racism within, and outside of the gay community.
Calling someone anything can be construed as a biting attack fueled by hatred. I got called a faggot, queer, and a sissy when I was a kid, and it hurt…..however, people getting upset because kids say “that’s so gay” are on a whole other level of over sensitivity.
Mister C
All this back and forth BULLSHIT…Girls please.
Charity begins @ home. Once we STOP using these terms and please don’t act we don’t, you hear it about 20,000 times in the bars all weekend. We can then tell others not to do it as well.
Mister C
BTW, Afrolito long time no hear from on Queerty
Coffee&Chicory
@afrolito:
first of all, I’m not talking about “that’s so gay” (which I don’t like, but why would I?). I’m talking only about the words faggot and nigger.
Am I really going to compare and contrast the plight and history of black people in this country, with that of gay people?? Really?? Yes, of course I am, because anyone, ANYONE being discriminated against, beaten, or killed for being who they are, is vile and wrong. essentially, the motives behind one hate crime are not worse than the motives of another.
And please don’t throw me into the “white gay elite” cliche. I am a poor student who happens to be a homosexual. I’m not trivializing any struggle or discrimination you might face, so please show the same respect.
afrolito
@Coffee&Chicory:
Plays the worlds smallest violin….
I’m not interested in political correctness, so I will compare and contrast. Whatever discrimination gays face is lightweight compared to the history of enslavement and the struggles of black people. Most of us can’t hide our color in a closet.
Chitown Kev
@afrolito:
Maybe, but boy the shit we will put up with in our families and in our churches just to be around the family. And let me tell you, nothing hurts like that
Can we stop playing the oppression olympics, please? Because I am pretty familiar with both sides of this history going back rougly 3,000 years.
Coffee&Chicory
Oh nice, be catty,
Perhaps we shouldn’t discuss the larger picture and history here and just focus on the words because essentially, they currently hold the same purpose. Granted nigger has more history behind it, but how does that make it any worse to use it than to use faggot?
Let me just remind you that thousands of gays and lesbians died in the Holocaust and even today, THIS WEEK Uganda is deciding on a bill that could make it law to arrest and imprison gays and lesbians, get this, for being homosexual. Like you said, lightweight…
Chitown Kev
@Mister C:
I don’t go to the bars and I haven;’t for a long time. Not because of anything I heard in there, but I drink up the whole damn bar when I go. So I haven’t been exposed to that.
Coffee&Chicory
@afrolito: ^
Chitown Kev
@Coffee&Chicory:
Oh, boy, the Middle Passage in 3, 2, 1…and I could go to the Inquisition in 3, 2, 1…round and round this goes over 2 damn words that shouldn’t come out of anybody’s mouth…
Chitown Kev
I have faced more discrimination because of my sexuality in my lifetime.
I can’t help but to be all too familiar with the history that you cite, Afrolito.
I’ll put it like this, if the f-word isn’t as offensive as then-word then it should be. Let’s leave it at that.
Coffee&Chicory
@Chitown Kev:
alright fine, you’re right, but the struggles of your own people (and I say that in the general meaning, not just black people) are not justification for trivializing the struggles of others.
Chitown Kev
@Coffee&Chicory:
yeah, I hate that “elite white gay cliche” You would think that Afrolito hasn’t caught up on the war between the A-list gays and the D-list gays nowadays.
With all due respect to the few A-listers that I know that are cool.
Chitown Kev
@Coffee&Chicory:
no, I am not trivializing them at all, you need to talk to afrolito about that.
Chitown Kev
@Coffee&Chicory:
and dude, you…are…my…people…too!
Coffee&Chicory
@Chitown Kev:
That comment was essentially for him. That’s why I got lost in my little gay-struggle tangent. oops, haha.
afrolito
@Coffee&Chicory:
Thousands of gays died in the holocaust? That’s terrible.
MILLIONS of africans died just being transported to the americas.
That was just the beginning of the 500 year african holocaust.
I think we can all agree that words carry a lot of weight and history. However, in my view telling people they aren’t allowed to say certain words is just dangerous and scary.
Coffee&Chicory
@Coffee&Chicory:
another big oops : (
Coffee&Chicory
@afrolito:
aah! now that’s a whole other side of the argument that is really far too tricky and dense to get into when I should be doing homework.
Good night!
p.s. – ok the oppression olympics (as Chitown put it so well) are done. Sorry for getting into it.
Chitown Kev
Maybe I feel like this because I was born in the North after the civil rights movement. I know as little about living under Jim Crow and all that stuff as a white person. Good neighborhoods, good schools, the whole nine yards.
Not that I’ve never experienced racism, not that I don’t know my history, but the discrimination that is most real to me and that is etched in my memory is homophobia. Much of it from my family.
rogue dandelion
minorities at each others throats- this is prop 8 territory all over again.
We have so far yet to go. Everyone has had their own unique adversities- unless you are a transgendered disabled native american, I don’t think you have the right to dismiss someone else’s experience.
In my personal opinion, nothing can compare to the feeling of hearing your mother use the word faggot.
Chitown Kev
@rogue dandelion:
or your brother, for that matter.
It just pisses me off when someone like afrolito implies that I should pick one or another. I WILL NOT CHOOSE WHICH PART OF MY IDENTITY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OTHER.
I think he wants to revoke my black card or something, sheeesh.
I mean, we are called faggots for a reason.
rogue dandelion
@afrolito: who sold the Africans into slavery?
-Africans as well as Europeans.
Who are killing Africans today? In darfur, in the congo, in northern uganda
-In these places Africans are.
Europeans killed many people, including many Europeans.
This is all irrelevant.
You are willfully distorting history to make a point, well what point is it exactly? That faggot should not have equal wait to any other slur? That simply hate in another guise. Please stop wasting everyone’s time.
afrolito
@rogue dandelion:
I stated the facts, you’re the one using distortion to make your point. How exactly am I wasting your time, when you’re the one who willfully took the time to read my posts, and lamely rebuke them?
Charles J. Mueller
Gee…maybe we can reclaim the word “cocksucker” as well while we are at it?
“Cocksucking faggot” sounds so much more formal, like having a first and second name, don’t you think?
Chitown Kev
@rogue dandelion:
Well, a big part of the reason that portions of Africa are so destabalized is because of colonialism….and we can go on and on and on….let’s not. Because you don’t get a doover on history.
It bothers me that they are damn near the concentration camp point in Uganda and Nigeria. Gay people being stoned to death in Jamaica. Folks getting off of murdering gay people in London and Spain and New York. (and I know, I know, the lynchings, et al., and I am not trivializing it, afrolito)
People just need to treat people right, period.
And either you want equal right for because it’s the right thing to do or you don’t.
afrolito
@Chitown Kev:
Where have I implied that you should pick an identity? I have no idea who you are, and couldn’t care less how you label yourself….black faggot or otherwise.
Chitown Kev
@Charles J. Mueller:
LMFAO on the first sentence…good evening, Charles
Chitown Kev
@afrolito:
yeah, but it’s like, you are feeding the fire. the n-word is worse than the f-word and all that nonsense. I mean, can both sides of these just stop it.
Queen.
Mister C
@ ChiTown Kev,
Unless I’m misunderstanding you, You’re saying the discrimination that is most real to me and that is etched in my memory is homophobia. Much of it from my family. Really, Are most of your Gay friends and in general are caucasian???
Mister C
I quoted you on that comment BTW. Meaning real to you and not me.
Chitown Kev
@Mister C:
No, not really. I mean, I mean, many of my gay and straight friends are white but not all. I live in a mostly white community, but that hasn’t always been true.
And a lot of the reasons most of which have nothing to do with sexuality, it’s moreso childhood shit. Mine is a black experience, but not the black experience.
tdub
@Sebbe: hey man… i’d love to read your blog…but it won’t let me …. also…. how do i find AK’s twitter? or yours for that matter…? my twitter is tdubtx…
tdub
growing up, like many gays, i was teased and insulted with many of these words and i’ll be honest: those words—even tho intellectually I know they’re just WORDS—still sting. “Faggot. Pansy. Queer. Sissy.” HATE them…
i have 2 teenage sons whom i have raised and tried to instill in them the kind of sensitivity that means we make fun of NO ONE—wheelchair, limp, lisp, facial imperfection, girlish boy, NOTHING. i guess the key word there is “tried.”
Anyway, several years ago, while i was still “in the closet,” they and their 2 stepbrothers started using the word “gay” to mean “stupid/ignorant” (or comparable insult, ala nigger–altho thank God they’ve at least been sensitive enough to know not to use that word as an insult). of course, i had a really hard time with it and although i had always tried to play straight dad (coaching their teams, doing guy things, etc.) it still stung. they–and their peers–really DID mean it as an insult. Simply, a gay person was the worst they could think of and they purposefully meant it hatefully. my wife (who know of my “struggle”) and i tried to explain to them that we did not want to hear them use that word in that context ever bcz they could never know who they were hurting by saying it. but they never really stopped.
fast-forward a few years–a period of time that also included my coming out and subsequent divorce (altho we’re so blessed to remain very close)–and the word had evolved to the context of “that’s so gay”…a similar use but not quite as mean-spirited as before. basically it seemed to have devolved into “silly” and was often lighthearted. while i never approved its use in this context, i rarely tried to quash its use.
my experience with the N-word has been less prolific (i was raised and still live in a predominantly white area) except for watching my older son and his friends use it as a term of endearment, calling each other “my nigga.” i gently insisted that they had NO RIGHT to use that word, what its origin was, and that it didn’t matter if young black men used it and were friendly with each other about it—they were white and its use was offensive. but the context in which these young millennials were using it did seem to parallel the “watered down” use of “gay.”
out almost 3 years, my sons still live with me and—coincidentally?—my African-American partner. although they never use any variation of the N word (except for a few nicknames for friends in their phones), the phrase “that’s so gay” is still used occasionally. (and if i’m being completely honest, my partner and I have both caught ourselves using it in the “not gay but silly” context; our rationale is that WE at least have the right to use it—which I know is indefensible.). HOWEVER, i have to add that when the two brothers are really fighting and angry or really furious with someone—their #1 insult? FAGGOT. no matter how much I have tried to instill in them tolerance and sensitivity, the hate still finds its way out.
that notwithstanding, i am inclined to say that my sons are very comfortable in our home with their dad and a step-dad and having their friends over to our house. we’re involved in their lives, sporting events, etc. and most of their friends are quite comfortable with us (particularly the morning after sleepovers and they’re consuming the dozens of pancakes I’m churning out). and the older stepson has shared with me that he feels that the two of us have a better relationship than we ever had, how he has defended his relationship with me to his family, and how he feels perfectly comfortable in our home. i don’t know if this is the norm or not, but I feel very blessed.
to end this reply to a very popular queerty topic (and I know A.K. often comes off as vapid and fratty, i appreciate that straight folks have taken up the cause!), i have to share with you all this very hilarious anecdote involving me and my younger step-son who was 14 at the time.
last summer, he and his mother (my ex-wife) were in town visiting friends. the plan was for her to eventually pick up my younger son who was headed home from church camp and spend time with him while she was in town. her younger son was in our neighborhood at a friend’s house attending a neighborhood Labor Day event but didn’t want to be there any longer. so he called me to ask if he could come over to our house and wait for my son to get into town—which presumably would involve him spending the night. (FYI: he had stayed with us once before the summer before so he’d met my partner, seen the family dynamics and for the most part, acclimate to my new life.)
it just so happened that we had about 12 of our gay and lesbian friends out for the weekend. no big deal but i had checked with his mother to make sure he wouldn’t be totally uncomfortable and she said he would be.
so, sure enough, he shows up. i’m talking to him about his friend and what all he’d been doing and then i asked him why he’d left the party.
his explanation: “because it was SO GAY.”
and without thinking, i said, “so you came here???” and we both just DIED LAUGHING.
he immediately called his mother to tell her what I’d said and come to find out, he’s since told EVERYONE that story with great relish! we still laugh about it.
so maybe “it’s so gay” isn’t such an insult after all. 😉
tdub
REVISION: it just so happened that we had about 12 of our gay and lesbian friends out for the weekend. no big deal but i had checked with his mother to make sure he wouldn’t be totally uncomfortable and she said he would be FINE with it.
Sebbe
@tdubtx – I added you on Twitter. I’m really glad to hear about your story too. If you look on my twitter list you will see AK. Look me up. Hope all is well with yourself and family.
cheers