Fans of 22-year-old John Gechter know him as “Vincent DeSalvo.” What type of fans? Porn consuming fans, that’s who. Gechter stars under that name for adult sites like RandyBlue.com. Only problem? The administration as the Christian university Grove City College found out about it — and suspended him.
Gechter, who says he used the porn income to pay tuition, is appealing the suspension and weighing legal action.
In the videos, Gechter can be seen masturbating and, uh, pleasuring his rectum; there don’t appear to be shots of him engaging with anyone else (we were so wrong on this; our porn watching is evidently not that robust). None of which we have to link to, because we’re sure you know how to use The Google.
All of which begs the question: If Gechter had appeared on a straight-oriented site, would Grove City still have had a problem?
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
(Photo: Randy Blue)
afrolito
Maybe they kicked him out for naming himself after the Boston Strangler…..
Anyway, i’m sure Obama the bogeyman is the real blame for this.
Sidney
Hey, The Google shows some pics of MORE than just solo stuff.
I am ok with that…if he needs a new school, I would love to be his classmate.
Alec
To give you an idea, residence halls (which all students apart from commuter students must live in) prohibit “obscene” and “pornographic” materials, they can’t drink in the residence halls and they’re only permitted same-sex sleepovers (hehehe….what fools these conservatives be).
So my guess is that a heterosexual student working in porn would probably be treated similarly.
bince
Hm….a quick Google Image Search DOES in fact reveal shots of him “engaging” with others.
bince
@bince: sorry Sidney, missed your message somehow.
KEVIN VANCOUVER BC
pertty sure they would have taken issue if it was straight as well …..
Ryan
So, I Googled, as per your advice, Vincent DeSalvo, and I definitely got some shots of him getting fucked.
Maybe you should take your own advice next time and google it?
Chrissypoo
Queerty — you should correct your story — Vince has participated in a 3-way and bottoms in another video.
Cam
So the mythical “Stripper Paying her way through college” actually DOES exist….except he’s a gay porn star.
George
To answer you. YES. Grove City is INSANELY conservative. I’m from right near it and it has a crazy honor code. Boys can’t even set foot in the girls dorm. All my friends who went there got married within months of garduation. Its that type of place. They have kicked kids out for good old fashioned pre-marital sex. So porn whether straight of gay is gonna be an issue.
PaulD
I grew up near GCC, or as we called it: God’s Concentration Camp. Three feet on the floor at all times if someone of the opposite sex was in your room! Oh, and the door must be open too.
XY magazine once labeled it as the most homophobic college in the nation.
They did win a pretty sweet Title IX case against the Feds in the Supreme Court, though.
REBELComx
Wow Queerty couldn’t find anything but solo stuff? I’ve been watching the samples to his various duo, threesome stuff ON Randy Blue for weeks (his are some of my faves). I think he’s friggin gorgeous.
I don’t think he’s got a case though. If you’re going to voluntarily go to a private christian school like this, then you gotta follow their rules. It’s just like taking Miss Cali’s crown for her shoot. Broke the rules, gotta pay for it. There are plenty of non-christian schools he could be going to that wouldn’t have had a problem.
I’d definitely still do him though ;~)
Oaklander
If they are a private institution and don’t get state money, I support them having their guide lines for ethical behavior. What audacity to think that you could go to a Right Wing school funded on porn money.
Bruno
Let’s just say if the Miss California pageant “should” strip Carrie Prejean of her title for…stripping…then I guess a Xtian college can do the same. I assume this guy should’ve been aware of the guidelines of the school.
BTW there’s photos out there of him “connecting” with someone.
George
What I want to know is…who’s the closet case who “figured it out” and reported him?
Alec
@George: I always wonder that, too, especially in those military cases. “So uh, Sarge, I was just minding my own business browsing the internet when this photograph/video popped out of nowhere!”
Alexandre
http://tinyurl.com/d9x5bp
TANK
Doesn’t warren throckmorton–the champion of ex gay therapy– teach at grove city? bah…
hardmannyc
If it’s a private Christian college, he should have known what he was doing. I can’t see anything wrong with their doing this — I think they’re repressed morons, but if they want to be repressed morons, that’s their right.
bobito
They’re doing him a favor. An education at a private Christian college probably involves more brainwashing than actual enlightenment. Poor guy has been taking it up the ass (literally) to pay his tuition, he deserves a decent education for his effort.
Grover
I actually go to Grove City College. It’s not as strict as these people who don’t actually know anything claim it is. And obviously if you are a ‘gay porn star’ you are going to get kicked out of a Christian College. Obviously this isn’t really the school for him.
Alec
@Grover:
Isn’t it, obviously if you’re a “porn star” you are going to get kicked out of a fundamentalist college?
John
The school probably WOULD have suspended him even if he was doing straight porn. I’m working on my Master not far from Grove City (less than an hour), and I know the place to be pretty harsh. I’m talking no visitors of the opposite sex in your dorm room (EVER) harsh. (Though I wonder how that goes for gay… worse I suspect; of course, that’s if you get caught.) If you check out the Princeton Reviews rankings, Grove City College is right beside Bringham Young in all the no drinking, no drugs, no pre-marital sex, not homo-friendly categories. “Scotch and Soda, hold the Scotch” sort of thing. It’s a pretty serious, very conservative school.
Alec
@John: Re: The visitors of the same-sex for gay students….I don’t think it is usually an issue because I think students at these universities just conceal it. At universities that are gender segregated but more liberal, it creates a kind of bizarre double standard, where two guys or two girls who are dating can room with each other on campus while a heterosexual couple can’t.
I stayed at a Muslim hotel in Asia once and the owner informed me that I would be charged double if I had a girl over, but same-sex visitors would be OK. Well, you can imagine…
Grover 2
I also go to Grove City College, and most of the descriptions here are just flat-out wrong. You are allowed in the opposite sex’s dorms on the weekends, and you’re allowed to drink off-campus. The school has no policy against homosexuality, and John is in trouble for breaking the “no sex before marriage” rule, not for his sexual orientation.
Alec
@Grover 2:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhaahhahaha!
I’m assuming marrying another guy is out of the question, no?
Also, there seems to be a rule against pornographic materials the spirit of which, at least, was probably broken here. But do give it a rest. Like they would recognize a gay student’s marriage even if it was an option.
ree
@afrolito:
I’m confused .. What does Obama have to do with this? Educate me.
Alec
@ree: He was joking about the site’s content and criticism of Obama.
Another Grover
as a recent grover grad, and someone who knew of and interacted with john/vincent on a few occasions, I think he got what he deserved. if thats how he wants to make his living, fine, whatever…but why attend a small conservative (yes, occasionally fundamentalist) college? seriously…princeton review even says “alternative lifestyles are not an alternative” there. its not like he didnt know about gcc morals and values. and he’s not the first to get suspended for sex (heterosexual or otherwise) or drugs.
also…in reply to ‘tank’…yes, throckie does teach there.
Dawson
What seems to be lost is that although he is entitled to do whatever he wants in his private yet life he CHOOSE to enroll in a university that has clear rules about moral behavior. We do not have to agree with the ridiculousness of their moral code yet it is clearly understood when you go to these cult schools what their expectation is. To say he did porn to pay for his school is like saying you sold pot to pay for school.
Take responcilbiity for your action. A church has the right to not accept certain behavior and we have the right to not go to these churchs. When they start interfering in your life outside of the church is another thing.
Not long ago we saw a Supreme court case of the State of Massachusetts vs St Patrick Day parade committee which does not allow gays to march in the St Patrick Day parade under the gay flag. The court ruled that private organization have the right to exclude partipation in activities like parades. We inturn limit who we want to march in our freedom day parade. Would we want some anti-gay organization to march in our parade because we had to legally allow everyone to right to inclusion?
I am concerned that people who go to extremely private christian cult school and who uses the homosexual community when it serves them are potentially the same ones we heard about leading Craiglist double lives.
Why would a person who preforms sex acts on the internet even going to a private cult christian brainwashing university is beyond me. And then to wondering why the school is even concerned? Are you serious!! You did the deed, shut up and take responcibility and go to another school.
LASURFPUNK
I posted solo and “engaging” with other pics 🙂
Enjoy…
http://pornpup.blogspot.com/2009/05/vincent-desavo-aka-john-gechter.html
Dave
Well at least he didn’t lose his Mr. Panama crown like “Andy” over at SeanCody. Ah the pageant drama everywhere.
The Gay Numbers
I agree that it’s bizare that he would be attend this school. Was there circumstances that required him to be there?
TANK
@Another Grover:
Which is indicative of a lack of academic rigor, excellence and integrity of the college.
gccrebel
@John:
Yeah I go to grove city and the rules are kind of harsh but you are allowed in the opposite sex’s rooms on the weekends, or anytime during the week in the apartment housing (which is more expensive but nicer). As one who would know, it’s pretty easy to get away with breaking these rules though. In Gechter’s case, its a shame that this got out 3 weeks before graduation since he’s been doing it for so long, but they really are treating it like any other case. Some slut and her loser boyfriend got arrested for screwing in a parking lot the other day and they’re getting punished just as harshly. To answer the lingering question about the kid that found out. It’s been long known that he works at a gay bar as a stripper, and it’s likely that someone found out about his porn name through that connection. no one got in trouble for looking at the pictures though.
Another Grover
@TANK:
HA.
I think any grover would have to disagree. academic rigor is something grove city prides itself on. whether or not you agree with their message (I certainly didnt always), or their ‘excellence’, if you wanted to pass you had to WORK.
rellex
I went to HS with him, sad thing, is he should be GRADUATING from college in like 1 week. I understand not approving of this, but to pull that away from him is just cruel.
TANK
@Another Grover:
Then why does the psychology department embrace medieval understandings of human sexuality, and teach them as if they were contemporary findings? Why does the psychology department house a bigoted liar like throckmorton who clearly is at odds with just about the entire psychiatric community (literally a derogatory remark away from the disgraced paul cameron)?
Storm Christopher
#9 CAM – the mythical stripper paying her way through college certainly does exist. They call her “Miss California.”
rellex
@The Gay Numbers: afaik, his parents are thoroughly christian…I haven’t spoken to him much since HS, but I’m sure they had a part in his decision, also hasn’t anyone else changed over the course of their college career? No one else took until college to break out of the closet?
Another Grover
@TANK: anyone that goes there knows exactly what they’re getting themselves into. gcc is VERY clear on the fact that they’re a conservative christain college. so…whatever YOUR perspective may be, tank, the vast majority of students there lean much more to the right. and that is why they teach what they do. they teach what they believe in. of course, you’re entitled to whatever opinion you want, no one can make you agree, but don’t bash throckmorton for having an opinion too. its a free country, after all….
TANK
@Another Grover:
This fails to address my point entirely. My point is that if a psychology department teaches an outmoded and academically unacceptable curriculum, then its academic integrity is questionable. For example, if an astrophysics were teaching the ptlolmeic geocentric model of the solar system as if it were an accurate representation of our current knowledge, then it, too, would be educationally unsound. If a chemistry department were teaching people alchemy in lieu of organic chemistry, it would be letting its students down and committing an academic fraud.
Liberty university purports to have fossil evidence that dinosaurs cohabitated with human beings to support a young earth creationist dogma. This is not a real education these students are getting.
So I can acknowledge that the students know what they’re getting involved in (but do they? Supposedly, one goes to college to learn…not outmoded and patent falsehoods. This can’t happen when the institution in question passes scientific falsehoods off as facts deliberately), and that the university has a right to determine its own curriculum…but I don’t acknowledge that such an institution meets any standard of academic excellence and abides by the principles of academic integrity.
TANK
ptolemaic even. It’s even more of a fraud when it occurs within a relatively primitive soft science which is attempting for some form of scientific credibility like psychology, which must hold itself to a higher standard of appraising and teaching the truth than other more established fields of inquiry…instead of capitalizing on its jejune status to distort the truth in the service of an unscientific dogma.
strumpetwindsock
Do you want to undo all the good work and bridge-building done by the people who made this video?:
http://www.queerty.com/need-to-convince-someone-gay-marriage-doesnt-affect-the-church-20090422/
Then keep attacking organizations that have every right to set their own standard of conduct.
I don’t whether this kid was stupid or grandstanding, but WTF did he think would happen? He was going to get tossed, and you can bet it would have also happened to someone who made straight porn.
The difference is someone tossed for straight porn wouldn’t have a bunch of crazy nuts up in arms saying the school should change to accommodate him. If you don’t like their rules then don’t go to the school.
Getting up in arms about something that is none of your business only helps the fundamentalist homophobes who are crying wolf about us forcing their churches to perform same sex marriage.
Fanning the flames on a bullshit story like this is the best gift we could possibly give our enemies. It doesn’t help us in any way. On the contrary, it will likely spook some people who might otherwise support us in the battle for our rights.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Kapo
More Grovers
@Tank
First of all, do NOT group us with Liberty please. Liberty has much harsher rules, and much less stringent and respected academic standards.
Second, Throckmorton’s beliefs on the gay mindset are irrelevant. His research is his own. I have not read it. You have not read it. What I have heard from a brief introduction to it from a professor that had read his research surprised me. He believes that homosexuality is immoral and can be changed psychologically, but his research shows that homosexuality is likely affected more by genetics than by choice, but is not determined completely by them. It is research! He is exploring the unknown. But, as I said before, his research is irrelevant. There is not a class called “Deprogramming Gays” and he does not teach his work. He teaches established curriculum.
The academic rigor and integrity of the college are well established through much more credible sources than you Tank. The science programs at the school teach evolution, as do the gen ed courses. They may not teach it as absolute fact, but none deny the evidence. We are a fully accredited, highly selective school. Princeton Review and Middle States both have established the school as a picture of academic excellence. Princeton Review has even honored the school by putting it on several academic excellence lists, including it as on of the best colleges in the northeast United States.
Grove City College is a starkly independent institution determined on academic excellence and rigor. Do not try to use evidence of other school’s curriculum, or teacher’s beliefs outside of the classroom to denounce the value of a Grove City Education. Objective sources acknowledge unbiased academic excellence based on detailed observations of curriculum, teaching, and post-college success. You base yours on uninformed opinions. Which has more value?
Do you know what what your doing here is called? Condemning something or someone because they have different beliefs than yours, without sound evidence? That, sir, is called bigotry. In this setting, YOU are a bigot.
More Grovers
I didn’t really mean to go off like that. Sorry if I was disrespectful (but I stand by my assertion that your presuppositions are bigotry). It’s finals week and questioning academic rigor got me worked up.
TANK
Throckmorton’s research is in defiance of the research of countless studies indicating that sexual orientation cannot be reversed or changed and is not a choice. And it is in opposition to the views of the american psychiatric association and american psychological association that sexual orientation cannot change, and that there is no evidence that it can. He is not exploring the unknown. He is perverting facts about human sexuality because his prescientific religious dogmas. He is operating under an outmoded and medieval understanding of human sexuality, and has not provided a single shred of credible evidence for his theory on human sexuality and his reparative therapy treatments published in any reputable peer reviewed journal in accordance with the standards of the american psychiatric association or american psychological association.
To suggest that his beliefs and area of intellectual inquiry does not manifest itself in the classes he teaches isn’t to be believed. What that would mean is that each time human sexuality were discussed in one of his classes or in one of his peers classes (I highly doubt that his peers are of an opposing view at this christian institution), he would stick to the empirically confirmed facts and completely disregard his own opinions on the matter (which made his career, btw, in obscurantist christian academic circles), so called research is highly unlikely given that he is a vocal and unrepentent advocate of this harmful minority opinion.
Entertaining that at a christian university where the full support of the administration is behind the faculty’s biblical views does not at all come up in classes with people learning evolution (I noticed you said they present it as only a theory, and I’m confident that that’s not the only slander they characterize legitimate science with) and about human development and sexuality in psychology classes…is miraculous.
Comparing grove city college to liberty in its commitment to teaching scientific falsehoods is apt.
TANK
And I’m not condemning throckmorton merely because we have a difference of opinion–I’m condemning him because his opinion is INHERENTLY bigoted and intolerant. If I were to condemn the views of a…racist, for example, would that make me a bigot or merely expressing my opinion…which happens to be the ethical one?
TANK
@More Grovers:
No need. By all means, go off. It’s the place to do it.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Gee you’re nice and sweet with the new ones, eh?
How come you’re not calling him a nazi collaborator like you called me? After all, I’m not the one who actually pays money to GO to a school with similar values.
(I actually have no problem with you going to that school MoreGrovers. It’s TANK’s rudeness and hypocrisy I have an issue with)
TANK, I don’t agree with religious perversion of school curricula anymore than you do, but if they are an accredited institution it’s none of your damn business.
That goes double for their student standards, and before you go calling me names you might notice that I am not alone in my opinion.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
Because you’re a kapo. You prove it over and over again. WHether it’s denying sexism in tribal societies and society at large in defending a homophobic sexist’s offensive opinions about women and gays…or defending the religious and maligning atheism. It’s your role.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
The thing is, though, that I am entitled to my opinion and I can criticize whatever I want. Simply saying it’s none of my business what a christian university does because they’re entitled to do as they wish is obtuse…and a nonsequitur.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
That’s more like it, you evil fucker.
@More Grovers:
Don’t let him fool you.
More Grovers
I don’t have adequate preparation or expertise to argue the Throckmorton case further. As I said earlier, I haven’t read, nor am I particularly interested in his work. But, as you have pointed out, psychology is a soft science. There are not enough confirmed facts in the field of psychology to fill a major, and those that are affirmed to be fact almost always find numerous exceptions. Very little is ever certain in this field, and some of its most famous proponents (Freud) carry little to no weight in the field of psychology today. Perhaps that’s why I don’t much care for it. I also did not mean to imply that he would not teach his beliefs, but that his beliefs are in no way the center of any curriculum. Throckmorton’s theories may well be wrong, but I am confident that students graduating from Grove City’s Psychology program will more than prepared for application of that field in secular or Christian settings. Look at acceptance rates to graduate schools if you need further evidence.
I would like to point out that when I called evolution a theory, I was referring to the theory (as it cannot be definitively proven) that human life originated through evolution. I was not referring to the easily observable fact that evolution exists is biology, which is taught as such in classes here.
But my point is still valid. Objective sources that actually observe the college have given it great honors for academic excellence. This year our engineering program took first place in major engineering tournaments based on transportation design against some of the top secular schools in the nation, and several international schools. They didn’t do this with outdated, illegitimate Bible theory. Our theater program went to the Kennedy Center National festival as one of four programs in the nation to be honored for their portrayal of the groundbreaking modern drama La Bete. Not to mention the points I brought up before which you cannot refute. The education experts of Princeton Review, who honor the college continually for its academic excellence. Or would you like to claim that they are Bible-thumpers as well? And the Middle States review? Would you care to disagree with their detailed studies of the college? If so, I’d appreciate your credentials for judging our academic rigor and integrity, because you obviously must be important if you have more expertise on the national standards of accreditation than the board that determines accreditation standards, a better outlook on our academics than Princeton Review.
I’ve admitted that I’m out of my depth on the issue of Throckmorton, I think you should admit that you don’t have the information to judge our academic rigor, and would take Throckmorton’s position of going against the authorities in the field if you persist in this assertion.
vernonvanderbilt
@TANK: @strumpetwindsock: Maybe you two just need to fuck and get it over with? It’s like a bad romantic comedy up in here. 😉 😛
strumpetwindsock
@vernonvanderbilt:
LOL
Yeah, something tells me I’m not his type.
vernonvanderbilt
@strumpetwindsock: You never know, strumpy. Always worth a shot, eh?
strumpetwindsock
@vernonvanderbilt:
I’d have to use the ball gag though.
vernonvanderbilt
@strumpetwindsock: Show me a perfect sexual encounter and I’ll show you a half-baked fantasy. Gag away if that what it takes. :0
strumpetwindsock
@vernonvanderbilt:
And on that note, I think I’ll catch up with this in the morning.
vernonvanderbilt
@strumpetwindsock: Likewise. Goodnight. 🙂
More Grovers
Also, on the ground of the actual article these post follows, I don’t think many here think that the school is out of its right as a private institution, but I’ll just reiterate that John agreed to these rules before enrolling, was reminded at the beginning of every year of them when the rules were redistributed, and knowingly violated them. You can disagree with the college’s policy, but not their legal right to have that policy. Freedom of Association. Courts consistently rule for private institutions in these situations. Disagree with the Supreme Court on that right if you want to, but in our legal system, the school is right.
TANK
I would like to point out that when I called evolution a theory, I was referring to the theory (as it cannot be definitively proven) that human life originated through evolution. I was not referring to the easily observable fact that evolution exists is biology, which is taught as such in classes here.
I assure you that evolution can be proven if biology is constituted of factual claims, and is not legitimately disputable. Calling it a theory to somehow delegitimate it as hard science (a tactic of the religious) is borne of an ignorance of what a theory does ( they’re fact makers). Perhaps it can’t be proven such that it can always be doubted, but it can be proven. WIthout evolution, biology does not make any sense at all.
Next is your contention that throckmorton’s theories don’t feature as the focus of classes taught by the department. That depends on the class. But you admit that it’s likely that they do come up when human sexuality is discussed.
Capitalizing on the jejune status of psychology to advance theories which have no empirical grounding and are in opposition to studies (several studies) which do because of prescientific beliefs does not translate to “everything is equally acceptable with psychology”. No, there are facts which studies have verified within psychology, and throckmorton’s contentions are at odds with those facts. And a school that not only harbors a person who advocates for pseudo science and opposes the factual understanding of human sexuality (which is his alleged expertise) but supports his claims and funds his pseudo scientific research is of questionable academic merit any way you look at it. It certainly doesn’t speak highly of the integrity of the institution.
TANK
Would be able to get funding and acceptance at a prestigious secular institution’s psychology department in lieu of his body of opinion and research? If he could…like say, the religious philosopher marilyn mccord adams (who could work at any philosophy she wanted to no matter how secular the bent of that department), then it seems we have no issue. But his professional opinions are at odds with his professional commitments to the truth, and it’s doubtful he could.
Andrew Triska
There’s a scene from The Producers where Leo Bloom is on a boat with Max Bialystock. Leo says he’s worried about someone from work seing him goofing around. Max points out: “If they see you here, why aren’t THEY at work?”
The question in this case: how did these people find his gay porn to begin with?
TANK
@TANK:
he and in light of, rather.
More Grovers
No legitimate dispute? There is plenty of legitimate dispute, as long as you aren’t operating on the presupposition that the existence of God is impossible. Since you obviously are under this presupposition, even though science cannot prove his nonexistence, nor can it be rationally and scientifically proven that the universe began without a Creator/divine cause (as I’m sure you are aware, it is scientifically impossible for something to come from nothing), we aren’t going to agree on this point. In that light, it seems that us Christians are the open minded ones here.
More Grovers
@ Andrew Triska
No one said there aren’t gay people at this school. I’m certain there are, and I have better insight than most of you. I’m pretty sure that in this case, however, the first linking of John and this porn star was pointed out in John’s semi-famous youtube video about bodybuilding. Comments arose that pointed out his pseudonym, then soon after it was all around the school. Whether or not that comenter was a student, I venture we will never know.
More Grovers
I just did some rudimentary (wikipedia) research on Throckmorton. I found that his works is controversial, but the APA and many other reputable, secular, psychological institutions publish him with great regularity in his studies. I also found that he is often asked to serve on many national advisory boards.
Now that makes me wonder, how can he be a quack if he is acknowledged and honored in these ways by the national standards in the field?
Another Grover
oh tank. its a school. they know what science is, bio or psych or otherwise. they know what research means. and just because its grove city, doesnt mean he can get away with publishing crap. and it also doesnt mean he is the only academic out there that has religious beliefs. look at behe, at lehigh. yes, he has like 9 kids, looks like a crazy redneck and his colleagues thinks he’s a looney, but some of his arguments make sense, if you’re not too pig headed and stubborn to give them half a chance.
also…the rest of the school does not necessarily agree with throckie. not even the rest of the psych department does. and just attending gcc does not make you a homophobe, as you seem to imply. however, attending there does mean you have to respect the rules, and john/vincent didnt. he really would have gotten kicked out whether it was straight or gay porn. (the pis lost their charter for having a stripper at their fall party. and I can think of several examples of individuals who got suspended for similar things.) its his own stupid fault for picking the wrong school to attend, given his ‘career’ of choice.
jbw
Good gracious, people. SLOW DOWN!
Trust me, as a guy who was at a college just as conservative as this and chose to leave, who then subsequently came out to family, the greatest lesson you can learn when dealing with the church is this:
They don’t have to get it.
Your own validation does not depend on convincing someone else.
jason
Porn is such an awful, dreadful career. It distorts human sexuality, and puts voyeurism before experience in terms of how we prioritize our sexuality.
Vincent Desalvo Fan
I dont know I think he did well over at
http://www.gayshortcuts.com/index.php/archives/vincent-desalvo-in-trouble
jjm16
@jason:
huuuuuh? What does voyeurism (which occurs on the part of the viewer) have anything to do with the porn actor’s sexuality. don’t porn actors have personal sexual histories-prior to making porn-and rules in their relationships outside of porn.
Are you saying that the magical forces of porn cameras turn people sour? you sound biased, small-minded and illogical… unless you were joking, in which case: haha(i guess)
TANK
@Another Grover:
But he does get away with publishing garbage at the college’s expense and ecouragement. And his theories may make sense (fairytales make sense in the literal sense), but they have no purchase in reality. And this is a proven fact.
More Grovers
@Tank
He does get published, and as I found with little more than a google search, NOT exclusively by the college but by numerous and respected, peer reviewed journals. Besides, he was published often before working at the college, by the same journals. Any research or therapy he conducts is, by the way, at the express desire of the client. He takes people who come to him with certain beliefs about life, and tries to help them align those beliefs with thoughts and actions. People come to him for this service, and he publishes his results. It’s controversial and I don’t know enough to really agree or disagree, but empirical evidence leads me to believe that you are not really the best judge of the integrity or value of his research. As another grover said, not everyone here even agrees on it. But don’t try to make it sound as if he kidnaps and brainwashes homosexuals. There must be some value to it if he is published by the APA, whose own theories are those he disagrees with. Why would they publish “garbage,” and since they have and do, what does that say about the integrity of that organization?
More Grovers
@ JJM16
I believe that he means in the mind of the voyeur here actually. It does distort human sexuality. It changes a person’s expectations and mindset about sex. Straight and gay alike, it’s not the healthiest thing to do.
TANK
He does get published, and as I found with little more than a google search, NOT exclusively by the college but by numerous and respected, peer reviewed journals.
Not with regard to his pseudo scientific theories on human sexuality. And by peer reviewed, I think you mean things like the journal of christian counselors and whatnot…created to float these marginal and scientifically disgraceful theories on human sexuality that conform to a fundamentalist biblical interpretation of sexuality.
Besides, he was published often before working at the college, by the same journals.
Once again, not his theories on human sexuality and reparative therapies in reputable peer reviewed journals.
Any research or therapy he conducts is, by the way, at the express desire of the client.
So he gets no grant money from, say, the templeton foundation to conduct his research and hire assistants, etc, etc? I doubt that.
He takes people who come to him with certain beliefs about life, and tries to help them align those beliefs with thoughts and actions.
WIth pseudo science, i.e., reparative therapy. It’s a disgrace, and it reflects poorly on both the academic integrity and honesty of the school.
People come to him for this service, and he publishes his results. It’s controversial and I don’t know enough to really agree or disagree, but empirical evidence leads me to believe that you are not really the best judge of the integrity or value of his research.
No, the APA is, though, and they condemn it as harmful and completely ineffective in changing one’s sexual orientation.
There must be some value to it if he is published by the APA,
Not his theories on human sexuality.
whose own theories are those he disagrees with. Why would they publish “garbage,” and since they have and do, what does that say about the integrity of that organization?
They didn’t publish that, and he couldn’t publish is opinions and research in a reputable journal today with real peer review…not a priest who took a psychology class and screens for the journal of christian psychology.
More Grovers
Throckmorton doesn’t use reparative therapy, or promote it. http://www.drthrockmorton.com/article.asp?id=183
TANK
@More Grovers:
No, he just provides treatments which attempt to align people’s sexual desires with their christian faith…not reparative therapy!
TANK
throckmorton is a good coverup artist, too…a good propagandist…he doesn’t do reparative therapy because it sounds so negative and bigoted…and is associated with folks who’ve had their APA memberships revoked because of their prejudices and disgraceful and unscientific research methods (paul cameron).
More Grovers
This is my last post on Throckmorton. I am not here to defend his theories. He is not a priest however. He has a psychology degree, masters, and PhD in counseling. Regardless of his research, he is a more than qualified professor whose research, again, is in no way a central or definitive feature of the curriculum. Tank has been unable to give even one other argument against the school’s academic integrity or rigor and has ignored the evidence provided to the institution’s academic excellence by actual qualified sources (Middle States Review and Princeton Review). I guess when you only have one, minor point, your best strategy is to restate it over and over again. Aside from his research, one associate professor who teaches one class about aging, one about cultural psychological differences, and a general counseling course (yep, he doesn’t even teach the class about sexuality or any advanced or specialized counseling courses) is not really an accurate measure of the college to begin with. You are out of your depth in trying to diagnose this college’s integrity and rigor.
TANK
I didn’t say he was a priest. I did say that his theories on human sexuality and the “reparative therapy” (though he doesn’t like that term…because…it makes him sound like a bigot and a quack) are not published in respected peer reviewed journals. Instead, they are published in journals created by christians to distort scientific truths (e.g., the journal of christian counselors) to conform to christian dogma.
And you don’t think his methods and beliefs come up in a general counseling course or a cultural psych course? Please…that’s absurd.
I would also think that having a holocaust denier in a history department of a university or college renders the academic integrity of that institution questionable. Similarly, a chemistry department that signed off on a professor who taught alchemy instead of nuclear chemistry would be pretty disreputable, too.
TANK
Those last examples are just that, examples.
More Grovers
Just for clarity, examples not from Grove City College. Let’s not put words in my mouth either. I didn’t say they didn’t come up. I said they are not central or definitive curriculum. I’m sure he brings them, but I’m also certain that it is in addition to the curriculum that is taught in all psychology programs. I’m also certain that his research is not tested on, or forced on to any of the students as fact. Discussion and debate are at the heart of education.
I notice you still avoid that which cannot be argued, that the school has been judged by those far more informed than you, and been appraised extremely favorably.
TANK
Who knows if they’re central to the discussions or not. Some topics, depending on the class, can take up a lot of the semester.
Now, as I said, having someone who is at odds with the APA and countless studies contradicting that person’s opinion and beliefs on human sexuality teach in a psychology department places the academic integrity of the entire school in jeopardy.
Another Grover
good lord. *I* know they’re (by they, I mean, topics of human sexuality and changing of orientations) are not central to class dicussions. I have taken classes with the prof in question, and he neither denies the gay lifestyle, nor attempts to change those who do not wish to change. in most classes it doesnt even come up at all. I had him for classes like adult development and aging, and a course on famous psychologists (freud, skinner, etc). even in the counseling class, it was very general and mostly about different styles of counseling, not specific applications or theories to force upon clients. you’re really blowing this way out of proportion. even in his private practice, all he does is provide counseling to those who are conflicted about their feelings, including those which are sexual and religious. it is not forced, and those going in to counseling with him know beforehand his opinions and the probable direction of his therapy. allow me to repeat…participation is VOLUNTARY. also, as a side note, gcc is not primarily a research institution, I dont think any of the profs have grants.
and seriously, quit knocking the schools academics. its a legit school, if sometimes overbearingly conservative. I was a bio and psych double major, and I now work at a prestigious (secular) university doing scientific research. I certainly do not agree with all gcc’s views, morally or politically, but the education I got there has served me well.
TANK
@Another Grover:
I’m not blowing this out of proportion. He is a disgrace and advocates a medieval understanding of human sexuality and apparently teaches it in his classes when it comes up. His understanding of reparative therapy is condemned by the APA and is said to cause harm. He is not teaching acceptable facts, but falsehoods that he may very believe in, but in light of his employment, do diminish the credibility of the school that employs him and, in so doing, endorses his beliefs.
I don’t care if people who go to ex gay therapies do so voluntarily. It is a hoax, and further, has the potential according to the APA of causing harm to the individual.
The Gay Numbers
Re family being christian
My family is black sourthern evangelicals/jehovah’s witness/speaking in tongues types. So, I know of family religion, but the reality is that I would not go to a school they wanted even as a kid because I knew who I was on the most basic level. I don’t get doing porn while going to a christian wingnut crazy school. That’s not a change. That’s completely ignoring who you are.
Another Grover
if the school isnt credible, why did so many of my friends get into top graduate programs, medical schools and competitive company jobs? I know grovers at penn state, harvard law, jefferson med, george washington, lehigh, william and mary, pitt….the list goes on. please, by all means, make fun of gcc for kicking out a porn star. its ridiculious to me too. say they’re crazy wingnut christians, go ahead, I dont care. but students do get a good education, regardless of the administrations religious beliefs. and, as so many have pointed out, gechter didnt really fit the grover stereotype, and, in that sense, he kind of brought this all on himself by knowingly picking a college so innately opposed to his lifestyle.
More Grovers
@ Another Grover
Tank obviously has a superiority complex and an extremely closed mind. Throckmorton in NO way receives money from the school for his research. None of the professors here do. Most of the professors I have heard of doing research usually conduct it while on sabbatical using federal or private grants given by other institutions. We are NOT a research oriented institution. Whether it is a hoax or not, if people want his therapy, they have the freedom to receive it and he has the freedom to provide it. You, who have taken both of the classes he teaches in which it may come up, have testified that his research or even the topic of his research are in no way central to his classes. He can think that Throck’s wrong all he wants, but until he finds some evidence of any of the fallacies he claims the school supports actually being supported or even taught at the school, which he won’t because the school provides a sound education, he is just being a stubborn, leftist bigot. And it’s pretty useless to try to convince a bigot he’s wrong about anything, even if all the empirical evidence contradicts them.
More Grovers
It’s called a strawman fallacy. Tank is building the college up around the basis of something that it actually isn’t based on, ignoring actual facts about the school, then tearing it down based on his own portrayal of it. It’s really quite an effective technique for slander.
TANK
@Another Grover:
Um, once again, employing a professor that teaches pseudo science as fact in a psychology department discredits the institution that he is employed at. This isn’t a strawman fallacy. This is a fact. “Controversial academics” who are controversial because they hold bigoted and/or false ideas and teach them to their students is a mark against the institution that employs them.
TANK
@More Grovers:
So throckmorton doesn’t receive money through the templeton foundation? No grants that go through the college go toward his research? He’s not employed by the psych department and represents the psych department whenever he lectures? Please.
TANK
And it’s not me who thinks that throckmorton’s controversial and empirically vacuous beliefs about human sexuality are wrong–though I do, too–it’s the APA and american psychological association, and just about all but an extreme minority of its over 34,000 members comprised of psychiatrists, psychologists and other clinicians who have researched whether or not sexual orientation can change with “reparative therapies” or whatever he wants to the same thing that he does…and have condemned it as harmful and ineffective….in other words, have come to opposite conclusions and can back those up with many more studies and research than throckmorton.
TANK
I am not defending the college’s choice to expel the student in question as that is their policy. I am, however, saying that they certainly have no moral authority on which to do so by endorsing the views of this quack by employing him. It is a stain on the entire institution’s credibility.
Another Grover
@TANK: hey look. this is all I’m going to say on the matter.
I’m not saying throckies ideas are right or wrong. this is absolutely not the time or place for that. I’m not condoning (or condemning) his methods. and I am definitely not agreeing with the gccs conservative religious stance. I can respect them for standing up for what they feel is the truth, but I am most certainly not going to even attempt to convince you of it. the only reason I even responded to you in the first place was to correct your wrong conclusions about the academics there. hell, even if they fired throckie now, you probably still wouldnt approve. but…gcc has been around for 100+ years and is highly selective. it is, as more grovers pointed out, accredited, and recognized by princeton review as one of the best values in college education. professors are regularly published in respected, peer reviewed journals (despite, as was mentioned earlier, it not being a primarily a research institution.) and its passed the real world test of graduates getting accepted into good jobs and universities. if that doesnt satisfy your ‘concern’ for their educational rigor, clearly nothing will.
luckily, your opinion doesnt change the facts.
Another Grover
and…I’m 100% positive gechter would’ve been kicked out, even if throckmorton didnt work there. it wouldnt matter that it was GAY porn, it would be enough that it was PORN.
TANK
I’m not saying throckies ideas are right or wrong.
Well, I am, and so are more than 98% of his “peers” (and given his stance, I use the term loosely).
this is absolutely not the time or place for that.
It absolutely is. There’s never a wrong time to confront scientific falsehood, especially when they are based on unscientific dogma.
I’m not condoning (or condemning) his methods.
I’m condemning them, and the school that would support him through his employ.
and I am definitely not agreeing with the gccs conservative religious stance. I can respect them for standing up for what they feel is the truth, but I am most certainly not going to even attempt to convince you of it.
That’s where you and I disagree. I don’t deny that they have a right to that stance just as I don’t deny that a klansman has a right to his beliefs. I don’t, however, feel that people are entitled to be respected (tolerated, yes) simply because they have beliefs and are “standing up for them”. I don’t respect neo nazis for standing up for their beliefs, either.
the only reason I even responded to you in the first place was to correct your wrong conclusions about the academics there.
Well, I don’t think that those conclusions are, in fact, wrong. He is a quack who passes off patent falsehoods for truths in his classes. That doesn’t recommend the academic integrity of the institution that continues to sign his paychecks and enable him to lecture on falsity.
hell, even if they fired throckie now, you probably still wouldnt approve.
No, I wouldn’t. Because I disagree with christianity and the mission statements of christian education. However, my opinion of the academic integrity would be enhanced. I don’t agree with the purpose of notre dame, but I can’t quibble with the administration and faculty’s commitment to excellence in teaching the truth and not religious dogma that is inconsistent with it.
but…gcc has been around for 100+ years and is highly selective. it is, as more grovers pointed out, accredited, and recognized by princeton review as one of the best values in college education. professors are regularly published in respected, peer reviewed journals (despite, as was mentioned earlier, it not being a primarily a research institution.) and its passed the real world test of graduates getting accepted into good jobs and universities. if that doesnt satisfy your ‘concern’ for their educational rigor, clearly nothing will.
It does not given the employment of this bigot who teaches falsity…that is, as I wrote before, a mark against not just him, but the academic integrity of the institution that employs him.
TANK
@Another Grover:
Once again, that’s not my issue.
More Grovers
Right on all fronts Another Grover. Tank still refuses to even acknowledge that there is more to Grove City College than Throckmorton at all, probably because there is no way to refute the factual evidence of Grove City’s academic rigor and integrity. He can bring up stances he doesn’t agree with all day, but he is not an authority on the matter of academic integrity or rigor, and the SECULAR authorities on this matter are on our side of argument. It doesn’t matter what you think about our rigor or integrity, you can’t twist the facts. But go ahead and try. What do you make of our accreditation(re-evaluated recently by Middle States Review) or our honors from Princeton Review? Did we trick them? And what of the success of our graduates? Do they become prepared for these prestigious graduate institutions and competitive employment oppotunities over the summers, safely away from GCC? Or are you fighting a battle in which the empirical evidence is against you?
TANK
The secular authorities are not on your side when it comes to throckmorton’s quackery. It’s unanimous: he’s a liar.
More Grovers
Those institutions certainly know that Throckmorton teaches here. It hasn’t changed their evaluations.
More Grovers
They aren’t on your side on the issue of the school’s academic integrity and rigor, but that hasn’t changed your answers.
TANK
@More Grovers:
And? Once again, having a liar teach lies and publically voice lies about human sexuality teach at your school is mark against that school.
More Grovers
So what you are saying is, the secular authorities on education aren’t wrong in their assessments. Grove City College overcomes in those areas even with the mark of Throckmorton? Then the school’s rigor and integrity must actually be off the charts!
TANK
@More Grovers:
No, I’m not saying that they’re right or wrong. I’m saying that employing a liar to teach lies to students and voice lies in public is clearly a mark against the institution that employs him. After all, one isn’t learning when one is being taught lies.
More Grovers
So you’re finally acknowledging that you aren’t the person to make evaluations of the college’s academic rigor or integrity on a whole and that you can only point out your own opinion? That we should actually trust in the authorities rather than you?
Also, even you can’t actually believe that Throckmorton sits in class and only talks about his own theories. Seeing as none of the classes the man teaches even center on the subject of his research, he obviously doesn’t sit and spout nothing but his own theories. Why do you assume that everything the man thinks, teaches, or believes is a lie? He may never bring it up in his classes, but you wouldn’t know as you haven’t taken them or observed them.
TANK
@More Grovers:
Not at all. I am the person. It’s a simple argument.
employing a liar to teach lies to students and voice lies in public is clearly a mark against the institution that employs him. After all, one isn’t learning when one is being taught lies.
Not caring about the truth and teaching it is a virtue held by the college, then. That speaks against the integrity and rigor of the college.
TANK
@More Grovers:
You see, even if he were to tangentially discuss it, it is nonetheless a mark against not only him, but the institution he represents in his capacity as a lecturer.
More Grovers
In the rest of this message, I in no way am judging the validity of Throckmorton’s research.
Presenting a theory is not a lie as a theory is not a fact, nor does Throckmorton call his theories or research fact in any of his writing I have seen. Discussion of it, even if it is a lie (which I admit is not in my depth or position to determine) does not equal the teaching of lies. Could you please name ONE college that doesn’t have classes in which they discuss theories that aren’t necessarily true? If you have some kind of evidence proving that Throckmorton teaches his theories as cold hard facts to the students, I’m sure the college wouldn’t be too enthused with it either. Espeically because it would be a dillineation from the curriculum of all of his courses.
You seem to be contradicting your prior statement that you are not saying that the educational authorities are wrong. They know about Throckmorton, they know he teaches here. We still receive high ratings, accreditation, and send students off into extremely successful futures and prestigious institutions. How does the school achieve this? Are you attributing it to miracles? That seems out of character…
More Grovers
What would you say to a professor who presented conflicting views on the matter at a secular university then asked some discussion questions without saying which is right or wrong? What if they let the students decide what they believe about it after looking at both sides of the issue? Is that school corrupt for mentioning Throckmorton’s theory? According to your earlier statement, even tangetal mention of it is completely inappropriate. Students nationwide have been taught about the geocentric model. The geocentric model isn’t true. Are all universities marked for this? Do you really believe that tangential discussion of lies is completely unacceptable? Or is it only when it doesn’t suit your own beliefs?
More Grovers
What do you make of the educational authorities’ evaluations that I have asked about? You still haven’t tried explained them away. Keep in mind that these evaluations were given as they are with full knowledge of Throckmorton and his teaching. And what of the student success rate upon graduation? What do you attribute that to?
I don’t actually expect you to answer this, because I have asked it over and over, but seeing as these three things (accreditation through Middle States, high rating through Princeton Review, and a high student success rate in entry to prestigious graduate programs and competitive employment) are definitive proof that you are wrong about the academics at GCC, I figured I would just throw them out there again. But if you acknowledge that this proof exists, your argument dies. So feel free to ignore this and continue with your witch hunt, I just don’t want rational people to be fooled.
Alec
@More Grovers: What kind of academic freedom exists at this university? Is there tenure? Protection from termination as a result of one’s research areas?
My guess is that this “university” is more akin to Brigham Young and Mormon lifestyle promoting colleges than it is to, say, Hillsdale. Just my impression.
More Grovers
There is actually no tenure. All must be issued a new contract every year. There is no protection from termination at all. The school is dedicated to quality, and this is a great illustration of this. Also, as stated often in the above argument, the school gives no money for research to ANY of its professors. Thank you for bringing it up. I’d be glad to answer any of your questions which I have to answer to.
The school is insanely different than Brigham Young and the Mormon lifestyle. Minimal research would show you this. Students are allowed to drink off campus, there is not dress code violation (except for nudity), we aren’t even forced to go to church! The chapel requirement only entails 16 chapel attendances a semester. Chapel credit opportunities include speakers (20 minutes, on a variety of topics), AIDS awareness events, Service/missions discussions and experiences, academic lectures, or traditional college adresses. The college does not dictate which you must attend and offers at least 60 different opportunities to choose from a semester.
More Grovers
I meant “which I have THE answer to” not “which I have TO answer to.”
Joe
This is idiotic of course he should be kicked out of this school why would he want to go to a christian school to begin with pornography is a sin it edifies lust to the highest degree so he broke their rules he can go anywhere he is accepted to and he cant sue because he applied there he was not forced to go there and when you submit yourself to that school you also submit to their beliefs and values.
Phil
Kind of cute? But WOW! What a small penis! No wonder he’s a bottom. His one hand around it almost covers it up. Poor guy.
Been Around
“More Grovers,” if you’re an accurate example of the results of Grover City College’s programs, I think we’ve learned more than what we needed to know about the institution’s quality, or lack thereof!
Blah Blah
@Alec: I agree. Grove City is *extremely* conservative. He’d be in trouble had he done gay or straight pron.
Blah Blah
@More Grovers: To reinforce one thing mentioned here: Grove City is considered strong, academically. It’s conservative, it’s got a bit of a devout Christian thing going on, but there is no fault to the school, academically.
ali
hi vincent desalvo im irani love you pls ad mi pls