Fresh off his role as the punchline to Gov. Mike Huckabee’s presidential bid, Chuck Norris is taking a fresh stab at politics by weighing in on Proposition 8 protests. In an op-ed called “If Democracy Doesn’t Work, Try Anarchy“, he cries “Where are the hate-crime cops when religious conservatives need them?”
The whole piece is a gobbledygook of half truths, race-baiting and feigned outrage that form a sort of Greatest Hits list of Yes on 8 talking points over the last week. Even though we’ve disproved these things half a dozen times already, we’ll break it down again, because if there’s one thing public education has proven it’s that endless repetition can reach even the dimmest of minds:
“Protestors [sic] of Proposition 8 in California (the marriage amendment) shoved aside a 69-year-old woman who was bearing a cross. They reportedly spit on her and stomped on her cross. They then aligned themselves in a human barricade, blocking the media from getting to or interviewing the woman.”
Only the first sentence of that is factually true. Meanwhile, at a protest last week at the Mormon Church, one man was punched in the face by a Yes on 8 supporter and three other women were hit by Mormon supporters. Violence is uncool, no matter where it comes from, but Prop 8. supporters have been as violent, if not more so.
“Letters containing white powder (obviously mimicking anthrax) were sent to the Salt Lake City headquarters of the Mormon church and to a temple in Los Angeles. (Thankfully, the FBI said the substance was nontoxic.) “
Unless the Texas Ranger has a hot line to the FBI, he’s jumping the gun on this. The FBI investigation is still ongoing and nobody knows who sent the envelope. Some have suggested that, like a similar case involving Scientology, the envelopes may have been sent by someone within the church.
“The 25-year artistic director of the California Musical Theatre, who also happens to be a Mormon, was muscled to resign because of his $1,000 donation to the campaign to ban gay marriage in California. “
Scott Eckern offered up his resignation of his own accord.
“A pro-homosexual, pro-anarchy organization named Bash Back marched into the middle of a church service and flung fliers and condoms to the congregants. They also hung a banner from the balcony that featured two lesbians in provocative positions at the pulpit. “
Well, yeah, that part is pretty true.
“Lastly, the tolerance-preaching activists also have taken their anger to the blogosphere, where posts have planted ideas ranging from burning churches to storming the citadels of government until our society is forced to overturn Prop. 8”
Does that mean Chuck Norris is a Queerty reader? If so, “Hi Chuck! How are you enjoying this post so far? I can’t wait til I tear into your statement about how evil it is for minorities not to follow the will of the majority. Stick around!”
“You even can find donor blacklists online. The lists include everyone who financially backed Prop. 8 — even those who gave as little as $46”
Chuck Norris thinks the Los Angeles Times is part of the evil gay anarchy agenda with their database of names provided by the California Secretary of State.
“What’s wrong with this picture? Lots. First, there’s the obvious inability of the minority to accept the will of the majority. “
Damn those pesky majorities being upset by the “tyranny of the majority”! Norris might want to read Plato’s Republic, Alexis de Tocqueville’s Democracy in America, John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty, Federalist Paper No. 10, or any of the other hundreds of foundations of democratic thought which argue vehemently against what James Madison called “the violence of majority faction”. Seriously Chuck, do you know the first thing about American democracy? I’m serious. You’re a moron.
“What’s surprising (or maybe not so) is that even though 70 percent of African-Americans voted in favor of Proposition 8, protests against black churches are virtually nonexistent.”
We’ve got a big story coming up on this, but as we’ve pointed out again and again, a.) the statistic is inaccurate and b.) there have been protests all over the country, not just outside Mormon temples– and the Mormon Church (if not all Mormons) was a direct and active supporter of Prop. 8, so protesting them is both moral and justified.
“There is a difference between respectfully advocating one’s civil rights and demanding public endorsement of what many still consider to be unnatural sexual behavior through cruel coercion and repression tactics.”
Who knew Chuck Norris was such a big baby? Marriage equality advocates throw a few protests and boycott a few business and they’re guilty of “cruel coercion and repression tactics”?
Norris is absolutely right that people are allowed to vote and donate money as they see fit, but they are also responsible for their actions. If you run a business and donated to Prop. 8, knowing full well that your donation would be public, you put your employees welfare at risk. People are free to spend their money as they please, but people are also free to withhold their money as well. While there have been scattered incidents of violence and arrests on both sides, the protests, while angry and defiant, are remarkably peaceful for their size and spontaneity.
The fact is, the only argument bigots like Norris have is, “We don’t like you.” The fact is, you’re down to calling us “terrorists”, “anarchists” and “fascists” and it’s pretty laughable. As Gandhi once said, “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
That’s right Norris, you just got your ass handed to you by Gandhi.
Chuck Norris can S my D.
Quick, somebody, put that on a t-shirt.
Yeah but those caps on his teeth are SOOO white. Are you sure he isn’t trolling in West Hollywood.
Where was Chuck in Apartheid South Africa? The old National Party would have loved him. They persecuted GLBT people too and also did not like it when people had sex that most South Africans did not (and still do not) approve of, i.e. sex between people from different races. Perhaps the will of most South Africans should be done and we should ban interracial marriages. Chuck can be the champion of this, and when the minority protest, we can accuse them of anarchy and not blindly bowing to the will of the mob, I mean the majority.
Why is this meathead relevant?
I find it so interesting that when gays come out and protest (a right we have as citizens) we are accused of being bullies, anti-religion, anarchists. Yet if the right does it, or says something, or attacks US, they are only exercising their rights.
Yes, some of us are acting badly. I’ve heard the n-word used (not cool) and if a lady (regardless of age) was shoved that is simply bad form. But the majority are acting in a peaceful yet powerful way by coming together and saying enough is enough.
The same accusations were targeted at civil rights protesters in the past.
Where were you, Chuck, back then?
Are there still reruns of walker texas ranger? let’s try to get that off the air. ; )
Check out the comments following his article on the conservative website – pretty scary stuff! They say the anti-Prop 8 protesters are violent, yet I lost count how many people commenting on that site referenced guns, nightsticks and ropes . . .
What a gorgeous Ghandi quote.
Sigh… I guess I can’t watch The Octagon with the same satisfaction anymore.
actually, and not surprisingly, this ALSO turns out to be largely untrue. the local police department and fire department have both denied being called, or that fire alarms were pulled. no banners, i believe were hung and the police, called on a trespassing charge. informed the church that protestors were on public land.
news sources ran the story without fact checking again. you too
police have called local papers to correct that impression
@Justin Allen: I use to love Walker Texas Ranger. I loved when he would go into the Teepee and sweat with the other Indians. I was never into Chuck but those naked natives gave an 8 year old boy some of his first fantasies
Sorry to say, I actually thought Chuck was being very respectful of the majority of prop 8 opposers. He was addressing the extremes in the group and standing up for those who have been oppressed because of their “participation in democracy.” I’ve read some of his other stuff and he’s not a bigot as you say. He’s a pretty good American, though I might disagree with his politics and views of gays. Peace, like Ghandhi prescribed, starts with kindness coming from one side. If Norris was upset, you returned the anger as well as blogs above. “Norris terrified of gay anarchy” is a polarized comment casted out to incite others, which it did. Therefore, the cycle continues, because everyone is just playing the blame game. Too bad.
P.S. When is “will of majority” the “tyranny of majority”? When the minority doesn’t agree with the majority. Got to be a better way than accusations and inuendos.
The Conan O’Brien segment “Walker Texas Ranger Lever” was hilarious back in the day. Unfortunately, it made Chuck Norris somewhat relevant again which apparently emboldened him to become a far-right political activist. Unfortunately for him, and the rest of America, he’s dumber than his TV shows and movies combined.
It’s tyranny of the majority when the majority gets to strip rights away from the minority because of their own personal beliefs/religions, etc., which is crap + part of the very reason we don’t live in a pure democracy in the first place.
“what many still consider to be unnatural sexual behavior” – oh yeah, that’s epistemologically sound rhetoric
John (yet another John)
Fuck you Chuck! We’re aren’t just going to arrange your flowers and cut your hair anymore. We’re fucking pissed off. We’re through asking for respect and rights. Now, we are going to insist! STRONGLY! And if that’s not enough, we’re gonna riot. Californians can vote for Prop 8, but they shouldn’t act shocked at our response. If a simple majority had voted to void their marriages, they’d be pissed too. We’re people too–GET USED TO IT!
Who is Chuck Norris ?
Chuck Norrisâ€™ Morning routine:
1) Put in dentures.
2) Put On wig
3) Stuff socks in FRONT of jeans.
4) Have assistant stuff into jeans
5) Put elevator lifts in platform cowboy(girl) boots.
6) Listen to Rush and Sean see if anyone is talking about me.
7) Read Perez and TMZ see if anyone is talking about me.
8) Read Trades see if anyone is talking about me.
9) Go back to bed dream of people talking about me.
Walker, Texas Stranger
If I were in favor of Prop 8, I would be so humiliated by the cabal of celebrities I could point to who were on my side. Chuck Norris? Is that a joke?
Norris is following all the typical patterns of a super-macho, hyper religious, outspokenly homophobic closeted gay. When will they realize how they give themselves away? And is that a toupe on his head? Puh…lease!
The major upshot here, again, is that far right conservatives and religious zealots tend to take a few negativ einstances and spin it to their advantage. That’s why we’re now “terrorists” and “fascists” and Obama is a “socialist” as well. These people are disgustingly narrow-minded, and aren’t afraid to show it repeatedly.
What about the guy who was arrested for beating his neighbor with a “Yes on 8” sign? Are all Yes on 8 people terrorists?
And this whole line of “you’d never go to a black neighborhood” is so disgusting. It’s because, as Keith Olbermann said, WE’RE NOT RACISTS. Get a clue, Norris.
Charles J. Mueller
Chuck Norris. Meh!
Never liked him from day one with all that machismo bs.
I would kick his ass, easily.
@John (yet another John) writes: “Fuck you Chuck! We’re aren’t just going to arrange your flowers and cut your hair anymore. We’re fucking pissed off. We’re through asking for respect and rights. Now, we are going to insist! STRONGLY! And if that’s not enough, we’re gonna riot. Californians can vote for Prop 8, but they shouldn’t act shocked at our response. If a simple majority had voted to void their marriages, they’d be pissed too. We’re people tooâ€“GET USED TO IT!”
No. You get used to it. You dummys live in a dream world where you have the “fundamental” rights to do anything you want and everyone else has to say it’s OK. No. You DON’T have the right to get married and have it legally recognized in CA. The voters have spoken on this. Twice. It’s time for you to obey the rules or get the fuck out.
Phyllis the 69 year old woman who was shoved is also divorced. Glad she had the right to marry in the first place, and glad her husband saw her for who she was (only speculating on the husband part)
John (yet another John)
Hey Thumper: You are a closet homo. Why would a grown man care what we do. Hmmm. What’s you issue? What makes you think you have the right to order MY life the way you want it? Point is, we ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE! Time is on our side. WE WILL PREVAIL! not you.
No, it’s not. But thanks for playing, again, honey!
Stop responding to Thumper.
He’s a troll who gets off on trying to rile us up with his contrary nonsense.
Why is it that the best put-down you guys have to offer is “you’re a homo”? What the fuck is that? I guess you guys are just acknowledging your own deviance and perversion.
I also love your idea that anyone who voted against you is “brainwashed by the lies” of Yes on 8. Guess what? Maybe we just don’t like the idea of a bunch of people living in error being set up as an example for our children.
I really do not care what any of you do. It’s you’re life to destroy. But don’t shove it in front of me and tell me to celebrate it or even acknowlege that it’s normal. It’s not.
Heh, I would not mind getting in a fight with Chuck Norris, he is a bit of a jerk, plus well I like any other girl who enjoys a good fight would have to say it would be pretty kickass to beat Churk Norris. And honostly Neville Longbottom is more BAMF than Chuck Norris. Plus well, he would be easier to beat then any of the priest I know, like the priest at the church I work in, he is like 80 years old and every time we have burglers he singl handedly kicked their asses. We all know priest have secret powers….wow I am rambling…just got an obscenely large amount of hate mail for our other priest…but well he looks like Count Duku and sponsered the Yes on 8 mailings…I may have given out the address…so well I have an idea where is generaly coming from so meh not going to read them and laugh.
And dont forget the best part; Chuck Norris’s hypocrisy:
“There have been many of us who have passionately opposed an Obama election, but you don’t see us protesting in the streets, crying out unfair â€“ rather we are submitting to a democratic process and now asking how we can support “our” president.”
It is obvious that Mr. Norris doesn’t pay attention to the publication in which his article appears, World Net Daily. Check out the headlines of the articles featured today in World Net Daily:
Communist Party strategist maps out Obama’s agenda
Powerful unions, socialized medicine 1st crucial steps for long-term plans
‘Constitutional crisis’ looming over Obama’s birth location
Alan Keyes lawsuit warns America may see ‘usurper’ in Oval Office
The enemy within (Editor’s note – Yes this is another piece comparing Obama to Hitler)
Obama blockbuster: ‘Audacity of Deceit’ $4.95 today!
Save $21 on stunning blueprint for the new White House agenda
Obama camp: Lawsuits by citizens are ‘garbage
‘Legal challenges spring up across U.S., demand proof of eligibility for office
So much for supporting the new president. If Chuck Norris and his cohorts support Obama, then I’m secretly Paris Hilton undercover as a black gay man in order to write a Harvard thesis on racism and quantum physics.
You guys can direct all the vitriol at Chuck you want, but realize it was BLACKS more than ANY OTHER group that voted to take your “right to marital buttsex” away. Blacks voted 70% for Prop 8. And thanks to Obama, blacks turned out at a massive rate.
So thanks to Obama & blacks, the unthinkable happened: California banned gay marriage.
Hooray for Obama! Maybe the republicans should just disband and join the democrat party. Might as well just ADMIT we are a one-party state.
There are much bigger issues than “gay marriage” out there. Why do queers want to get married anyways? Marriage is a religious issue, and all traditional religions disapprove of gays, so it’s a contradiction.
God you’re boring.
Gay blogs is like groundhog day…sheez….
Gay marriage is SUCH a non-issue …..so…why the HELL did the Mormon church pay soo much money towards…”much bigger issues”…?
Tell me smart ass.
It’s Gandhi, not Ghandi. Sorry, but had to correct you on that one.
To feed or not to feed?
The trolls, that is.
If it’s a non-issue, why are you here?
Who’s telling you to do anything but go fuck yourself?
I find it so funny that they say “The people have spoken.” Well the people have spoken many times over the years for the freedom of choice, but funny thing the right winged nut jobs still protest abortion clinics, and wait they do not condone murdering doctors that perform them. The people who are against Prop 8 are so hypocritical, their religious organizations can call for boycotts stage protest and that’s their constitutional right. Here is a little advice to all over those people, There was a reason the Constitution separated church and state, because you all shouldn’t be dictating policies, so in the light of that we do have the right to marry, because your definition of what marriage is includes what God want, so therefore makes it unconstitutional to denies us the right to marry. Get you fact straight, go back to school, and when you know how the constitution works then you are allowed to tell us what our right are and what aren’t.
@fredo777: FYI – We DO NOT live inaq democracy, pure or otherwise. We live in a REPUBLIC. This is a common error made by U.S. Citizens.
Who is Chuck Norris?
Why is his opinion supposed to be interesting?
hahaha omg, bend to majority will, like jews should’ve done in the war or slaves should’ve done in antebellum times? ho ho, what a fucktard. you fundies sure protest to reinstate school prayer and as someone said above abortion, even though the majority supports it. no bending to the will of the majority there, you’re just as violent in protests if not more (abortion clinic bombings, anyone?)
such hypocrisy. it’d be funny if the government didn’t keep violating the constitution and letting them dictate our laws for us.
Ewwww….he’s really goofy looking, whoever he is.
Don’t try to school me. I know we live in a constitutional republic + have said as much several times before.
order up dingy
Chuckles has been married a couple of times and had a child born to a mistress while he was married to his first wife. His current wife is 28 years younger than Norris. Those are some fine family values.
Its shame that I share my Birthday with him. It’s bad enough that I share it with Osama Bin Laden (not kidding…), and now I can’t pride myself in sharing it with Chuck Norris…
Felt stupid laughing at all the Chuck Norris Facts….
Feel stupider now….
Coercion and repression…
When Chuck Norris has sex with men, it is not because he is gay, but because he has ran out of women.
Chuck Noris only masturbates to pictures of Chuck Norris.
Chuck Norris eats transformer toys in vehicle mode and poos them out transformed into a robot.
There is no such thing as a lesbian, there are just girls who have never met Chuck Norris.
Chuck Norris’s penis is so big that it has a penis of its own and it is still bigger than yours.
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.
@#33 jonathan: is buddhism a religion? how about being hindu? discuss.
No one has answered the question, “Who is this Norris dude?” I have never heard of him, so I don’t understand why he even gets any attention.
Chuck Norris used to be in Martial arts movies and was the Stud of the 80â€™s; oh he was on Texas Rangers or something like that. Last year he supported former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee for president, and ever since then he has been a political pundit.
@Thumper: Well, you could just ignore us.
It would be good manners, and more dignified.
it is pathetic to see a nobody, who so desperately wants to be a somebody.
@greybat: We have tried to ignore you, but for some reason the Christian Right keeps involving themselves in taking away our right whenever they can. Remember this, you are the ones who started this, the Chritian right think that they can butt into people personal lifes and not expect nothing to happen. If you cannot take the heat, dont play with fire.
Good response, Erik! But I was actually talking the bunny above.
@greybat: Sorry my friend. I thought i had replied to thumper…
That’s Okay…I thought it was very apt!
So funny! Except I think that Chuck Norris prefers sexing up his Chuck Norris inflatable love doll to masturbating.
as a straight woman who is married, i was deeply saddened when i realized prop 8 had passed. i am so tired of the religious crazies thinking they run this country. i’ve heard narrow-minded coworkers saying things such as, “everyone needs to realize we are the majority” when gay rights comes up, but when barack obama wins they complain. it’s like they are the only ones allowed to be upset when they lose. being gay is natural, not unnatural. it is not a choice! 1 in 4 swans, some of the most monogamous creatures, spend their life with a same-sex partner. if they want to dictate who can and cannot get married by what it says in the bible, then why are adulterers allowed to stay with their wives or remarry? if you’re going to prohibit ANY supposed “sin” from tarnishing marriage, no one would be allowed to get married. according to their bible, we are all sinners.
@greybat wrote: “Well, you could just ignore us. It would be good manners, and more dignified.”
That’s the most reasonable thing any of you have said to me. The problem is you won’t leave it alone. Ever hear of CA SB 777? You keep trying to push your agenda into the schools. That’s where you guys cross the line. If I could have an iron-clad guarantee that homosexuality would not be taught until say, grade 7 – I would have voted no on prop 8. But there is no way you guys are going to stop at marriage. Honestly, I don’t care what you do – I really don’t. Just keep your influence away from my kids. I’m not going to teach them to hate.
And there’s the other side – I really wish you guys would stop with these over-the-top protests, because YOU’RE teaching my kids how to hate.
Or would everyone else like to see ellen and Wanda Sykes tag team this bitter D actor and knock his false teeth down the old gaffer’s throat, with a round house KICK.
Maybe Drew Barrymore could help, she’s pretty damn good at stunt kicks from Charley’s Angels.
no matter what anyone you tells you that off the shelf toupee….it’s vewwy, vewwy….LIFE-LIKE
Chuck, those that stick their head up Huckabigot’s A$$…shouldn’t throw stones.
now scat…so to speak
Chuck think of prop 8 blowback as a career oppurtunity
Cinemark theaters, who won’t have any major films booked into their houses, may need to show your tired old TV series on DVDs.
@Thumper: Dude, Schools cannot teach your kids anything without your permission, you teach your kids to hate, we donâ€™t, and kids learn most of what they know from their parent, so stop blaming us for your troubles. And if we are supposed to stop our protest, you guys stop your bitching about abortion, gay right, forcing your religion down our throats, and claiming you are the moral compass for the world. As I stated above gather your facts before you shout your mouth off.
I hope no one minds if I quote someone from another blog on what Chuck Norris said…it seems to fit and sums up what I think.
“What else could you expect from a man with a custom elastic crotch in his designer jeans?”
and, further more…why should I care what someone with custom elastic crotch in his designer jeans thinks/says?
Listen to Fredo777 and DO NOT FEED TROLLS!
And why would we teach your kids to hate, if you’ve done such a fine job of that already? As your parents did with you.
@Bruno: My parent taught me EVERYONE has a right to be here, and to stand up to people who say otherwise. Under the First Amendment I have Free speech and the freedom to assemble, so we are allowed to express our grievance with something we donâ€™t agree with, as you have the same right, so donâ€™t try to take my rights away as a U.S. Citizen, I will say it again learn our constitution and you will realize everyone has the right to protest, not just you who are holier than tho,
Sorry bruno, wrong person
I love it when the blowhards who would have us move just that much closer toward a theocracy by legislating the rules of their own religion of choice + enforcing their beliefs in schools, etc. claim that we’re trying to “force” our “gay agenda” on them + their moppets.
What’s more, if your kids have ears + eyes that function, — + aren’t locked in your basement — they are going to witness + learn about gay folks at some point in life, whether it be on TV, on the web, or in person. It’s not our job to tailor our protests for gay rights or our lives, in general, to your precious kids. If you want them to think something, you’re much more likely to brainwash them with your chosen message than we are. To think that we should cease to be as we choose so that you might avoid having to explain something to your children is just plain lazy parenting.
Btw, gay isn’t “normal”? Feh. Normal is just another word for average, ordinary, run-of-the-mill. I have never aimed for average + never will. And “Thumper”, anyone who supposedly takes such offense to The Gays being thrown in his face loses all credibility when he makes an effort to seek out + post on a gay-themed blog on a semi-regular basis.
That would be like me hunting down + posting on a Christian blog about my distaste for all things religious + how tired I was of hearing about their religion.
Feel free to rant, though, as this is a public forum. I can ignore those whom I choose to + have become quite skilled at doing just that.
As you might have forgotten, it’s liberty + justice for all… Not just those who are of the same sexual orientation + belief system as you.
@Erik: Yeah, the right to protest, not the right to harass. You guys are being held up as an example of acceptable hate. I’m really getting sick of your hypocrisy. “Holier than thou”… look in the mirror.
“Listen to Fredo777 and DO NOT FEED TROLLS!”
I ignored my own advice just now (blame my current boredom) as I’m wont to do from time to time. I just couldn’t resist after reading that last post of his. Typically, though, I stand by that rule + don’t give the trolls anything to gnaw on.
Oh yeah Thumper, because we know that right wing nuts like you never harass anyone. Seriously, go back to the public restroom stall you crawled out of.
@fredo777: Weren’t you the guy that posted not to respond to me? Anyway I’m glad you responded.
To be honest, you are right about me on some counts. It is not really a nice thing to do, barging in on an opposition blog and telling everybody what a bunch of assholes they are. It’s just that I am so amazed that anyone could actually say the things you’re saying. It’s so counter to what I believe.
Now as for this bullshit about us forcing our religion down your throats. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? God has been removed from schools, and more and more from every public place. Just how long can you keep using that argument? You aren’t the victims. You’re running the asylum! Christians aren’t in control of anything anymore. Prop 8 was a desperate attemept to stop the relentless avalanche of ridiculous gay legislation being passed in California. We’re just fighting back.
And you just distort the truth when you say things like “you’re not letting us just BE.” Hogwash. You’re “be”ing all over the place. Naked in the streets. While you’re “BE”ING, follow the rules of society. That’s the only requirement. Don’t break the law and harrass old ladies excercising their freedom of speech. Don’t drown people out while they are trying to speak. Be tolerant of other viewpoints. Accept diversity. Sound familiar?
I wouldn’t be in here if you guys weren’t making such a stink about prop 8. You never had the right to marry. The judges illegally overturned prop 22. They are not supposed to create law, but since the CA legislature is ruled by gay activists and pussies who won’t stand up to your thugs, they won’t do anything about it. Now the voters have had their say. Nothing was taken away. An anomaly was corrected.
Then he needs to quit pimpimg Excercise equitment on LOGO i’m tired of seeing that sad excuse of a topee and he’s just taking talking orders from Huckellberry see according to the Huckster today on the Veiw we haven’t been bashed and beat enough.
Yes, I am that guy. And I also said that I changed my mind, as is my choice to do from time to time.
Btw, I didn’t say God was being forced down our throats (although, one could argue that religion is being forced down our throats by some). I said some of our opposition would have their own religious/moral views forced upon the rest of us, which is a tad hypocritical. You don’t think Prop 8 was based largely on religious voters trying to enforce what they felt was appropriate according to their holy book (Bible, Book of Mormon, etc.)?
As for God/religion being separated from more public buildings, if those are gov’t. buildings, then it is only appropriate. I’m sure you already know why.
And I very much accept diversity, sweetheart, + think you have every right to practice whatever religion you wish + to believe whatever you choose to. Likewise, we have the freedom to be openly gay, to assemble, etc., + to protest if we don’t agree with your beliefs or your voting to remove rights of ours based upon your own conflicting religious beliefs, etc. It, like some of us, goes both ways.
As for harassing old ladies, when a few crazies (from either side) lash out at their opposition, you can’t blame the whole affiliated community. For the most part, our protests + demonstrations have been pretty non-violent + peaceful. Should we judge all religious folks by the actions of rabidly anti-gay groups like Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church? I should hope you’d think not.
That last bit about your not being here if we didn’t make such a “stink about Prop 8” is questionable, at best. When the justices (very much legally) overturned Prop 22, on the basis that it was discriminatory, they effectively gave gays the right to marry. Period.
That is their job, slick. To protect the minority + make sure that the constitution was upheld. Since Prop 22 went against that they, as has been done several times throughout our history, overturned the “will of the majority” in favor of doing what is just. Again, not a pure democracy where the “people” always get to determine laws, but a constitutional republic where the justices get to step in + make sure that the constitution is followed.
Also, based on the relatively close loss, I think it’d be pretty foolish to think that the tide wasn’t turning in our favor. Gay marriage will return to CA. Mark my words.
@Eugene: Before you bash South Africa too harshly, check wiki. You will find that in 2006, they legalized gay marriage. That means that the country best known for Apartheid, has now surpassed the United States in the area of equal rights. Nice, huh?
Why are people arguing with religious nuts?
Just ignore them. They’re crazy — you might as well get in a debate with the voices in a shizophrenic person’s head.
@Thumper: We are teaching your kids how to stand up to tyranny. A good example to learn. And dude – if your kids are not at least aware of gay people you need to let them out from under the rock a little more.
Are you saying they’re religious nuts because they are nuts or that they’re nuts because they’re religious?
You do realize that gay + religious are not mutually exclusive + some of us LGBT folks here might also have certain religious beliefs/views?
Personally, I don’t consider myself “religious”, because of the meaning of the term, but I do have certain spiritual beliefs that I’d appreciate not having equated to insanity.
The majority has spoken,there is a ban on gay marriage, move on with your lives,
@rukidding: Yeah and the Majority has time and time again spoken up about abortion, but you on the right seem to have a crusade to finish that, this is American, laws have been changed many of a time, so laws are not set in stone. The Supreme Court has overturn laws in your favor and when they do that, you are all justice has been served. You all on yes on 8 side are not victims, you threaten people who donate for no on 8 to donate to your side, you have threaten justice with recalls and wouldnâ€™t you know it, in Connecticut a pro marriage woman threaten to blow up the lawmaker and his family who put the resolution to legalize gay marriage up, so donâ€™t act all innocent and picked on, again as I have stated many times, the Constitution SEPERATES CHURCH AND STATE. The Christian right is the Taliban of the US, if they had their way women would be in burka’s and gay people would be hanged, God I love their definantion of Family Values.
@Erik: So anyone who disagrees with you is on the right? Typical ignorant response. Attack anybody and everything that doesnt fall lock step into your agenda.
@rukidding: No, but you still do not have the right to deny me my rights either because you donâ€™t agree with my lifestyle, we can sit here and blame each other till the cows come home, my point is this, laws are changed, some people do not agree with them some do, thatâ€™s the beauty of our country. But I refuse to let my country turned into a theocracy, I am glad you have spirituality, but do not force you beliefs on other people, again our founding father gave us the right to have protest to express our grievances and fight for our human rights to love and marry whomever we choose to. If people did not protest, or rally against the opposition, African American would still be segregated, or still be slaves, women would not have the right to vote, and the property to their husbands, so you can call me intolerant all you want, call me a bigot, but I will not stand by while homophobia spills into our government. You are not a saint; you are just as flawed as anyone else so stop acting like you are the moral compass on this matter.
It sounds to me as though people are getting stuck on simple differences in opinion. Everyone is arguing differences in their personal views, forgetting that having individual ideas of this world how how it works is one of the main things this country was founded upon…differences make us all special. The diversity of this country cannot be overlooked. We are not a country of christians and whites that forces any with different backgrounds to conform. We are a melting pot of white, black, hispanic, asian, european, christian, islamic, jewish, native american, new age, etc… There is NO STANDARD for what is American. Everyone is entitled to live their lives as they wish in America, SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE FREEDOMS AND RIGHTS OF OTHER PEOPLE. This fight that us in the gay community and those who support gays and want them to enjoy ALL the same rights isn’t about religion. It is about being able to persue our own version of what makes us happy. Remember that…the persuit of happiness? That is our RIGHT and IS what we are fighting for. Civil rights are not a christian value alone. It is what we are all entitled to by living here in this country NO MATTER WHERE WE COME FROM OR WHAT WE BELIEVE. It is our right be able to believe whatever our hearts tell us to believe in or however we wish to express ourselves in that persuit of happiness.
@Erik: Please dont speak as though you know me, half my family is friggen gay, I can see the problems they have with health insurance and other basic things that should be afforded to couples. What I am saying is there was a vote, the vast majority said no to gay marriage, now do you spend your time bashing everyone that doesnt agree with you or do you work on changing the way our culture views gay marriage.
The silly gays confuse their desire to have their “lifestyle” affirmed with a constitutional “right”. Under the California Constitution, the electorate does have the right (a real one) to AMEND the Constitution. No, it’s not a “revision”. Prop 8 was the voters DEFINING what is recognized as “marriage” in the state of CA.
And you’re right, this isn’t JUST about two queers wanting to “codify” their relationship through marriage. If it were, there are many people who would have voted no on 8. But anyone with eyes, ears, and half a brain sees there is much more to it than that.
Okay girls, let the snark begin.
That was such a pathetic jumble of the same, tired right-wing anti-gay talking points.
The voters at one time DEFINED marriage as two persons of the same race + that women shouldn’t have the right to vote. That didn’t last forever, + neither will this.
Anyone with half a brain wouldn’t still be using that lame-ass “slippery slope” or “God, think of the poor children” distraction which your ilk seems to cling to so desperately. Btw, ninny, there were many people who voted No on 8. Try nearly 6 million of them, since we only lost by about 4 percentage points (around a measly half-million votes out of over 12 million total votes cast).
It’s coming, “Sven”, + you know it.
There should never have been a vote in the first place. Gays deserve (and will be rewarded with eventually) the same rights as anyone else no matter their point of view. There are much more important things to be worrying about in this day and age. How one person views the definition of marriage shouldn’t be one of them. Its like any relationship. You may not understand what makes one person attracted towards another or how that relationship works, but you should allow them the right to explore that relationship no matter the outcome or the attraction. Putting a ban on any group of people is discrimination, especially when it involves their freedom to choose their path to happiness (even if it doesn’t fall within what “typically” is accepted.) Its those changes to the “typical” approach that leads mankind to progress to new and better ways of living. All this situations has done is to leave people on all sides feeling either angry, confused, hurt, scared, hopeless, fired up, segragated and/or completely shut out. This isn’t what America was founded upon. This isn’t what GOD would want (no matter what GOD you believe in) for his children to be doing towards one another. The fact that we keep trying to find new things for us to fight about (especially in the name of GOD) is just sad and needs to be focused in a new, healthy direction. We should be trying to come together, by celebrating the differences we naturally have and figure ways out on how to bridge those gaps to better ourselves through diversity. We don’t need to take steps backwards and bring back anymore hate than has already been recreated from this unnecessary fight.
Fredo wrote: “That is their job, slick. To protect the minority + make sure that the constitution was upheld. Since Prop 22 went against that they, as has been done several times throughout our history, overturned the “will of the majority” in favor of doing what is just. Again, not a pure democracy where the “people” always get to determine laws, but a constitutional republic where the justices get to step in + make sure that the constitution is followed.”
Great! Now that the constitution clearly defines marriage this should be done quickly and easily. None of the precedents (inter-racial marriage, women voting…) you use to make your arguement apply.
@Thumper: Your argument isn’t valid either. If the constitution can be re-written or the rulings of the supreme court be overturned, then it can all be reversed once again in the favor of the minority like it should be. Eventually, it will become accepted to allow EVERYONE to be able to choose who they marry, no matter their sexual orientation. Just wait and time will prove to be on our side, as it has been for other minorities.
Womp womp womp.
The very type of constitution change by public vote that we are discussing is not so cut-and-dry, which is why the Court is hearing arguments from opposition in the first place.
Those precedents very much apply. Minority, majority, not a democracy, + so forth…
We’ll see where this goes, but I wouldn’t expect gay marriage to be off the table in CA for long.
@Jim wrote:: “We are teaching your kids how to stand up to tyranny. A good example to learn. And dude – if your kids are not at least aware of gay people you need to let them out from under the rock a little more.”
Don’t worry, they’re 8 and 9 and know all about gay people. I stress compassion and respect but also teach them what the Bible says about the behaviors gays engage in.
And although I appreciate your comment, I’d rather you didn’t teach my kids anything. Try and see this from where I’m standing. Rememeber, we’re talking about my kids now, not gay marriage. You engage in a practice that the Bible says is harmful. The Bible also says exactly what will happen to people who continue down this path:
“Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents, they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” Romans 1:26-32
So you can see why I don’t trust you with my kids. I understand that you probably don’t believe in the Bible, but freedom of religion is in the constitution and you have to respect my right to my beliefs. I don’t go around forcing God or religion on anyone, but I am entitled to state that I believe homosexuality is wrong. Gay marriage is a huge step toward eliminating the freedom of religion and the freedom of speech. Someone earlier mentioned the “myth” of the slippery slope. He’s lying. It’s very real, and we know you guys – or the radicals driving you guys are counting on it because your ultimate agenda is to have a society where it’s illegal to BELIEVE that homosexuality is wrong. That’s why you’re trying to get to our kids through the schools (SB 777), that’s why you try to silence any viewpoint that isn’t exactly what you want it to be.
Do you let them play football? Then according to the bible they are unclean and should be put to death. When are you selling your daughter into slavery? Better not be eating shellfish.
If you are going to follow the bible then you better be following the whole thing not just picking and choosing passages that support your bigotry.
What’s more, the slippery slope argument is a myth + you are the liar here.
Also, when your kids back-sass you, it is only appropriate that you take them out into town + let the townspeople stone them to death.
I think I might have read that somewhere. Not sure where, though…
@Alan: You are mistaken. Your argument is an opinion backed up by nothing. The judges can do anything they want but I don’t think they want to send a message that the vote of the people is meaningless. You think you’re protesting now? Just wait. It would be very un-wise for them to invalidate the people’s vote twice in one year, and then rewrite the constitution to give gays the right to marry. Very unwise.
But ultimately, I’m afraid you are right. Eventually there will be another vote of the people, and the kids you have been brainwashing will be of voting age, and you will win. No doubt. BUT, it will take another constitutional amendment to do it.
@Thumper: Its great you are teaching your kids respect.
You know the bible also says it’s a sin to eat shell fish and it is also a sin to wear clothing that mixes different fibers? Do you teach them that also?
It’s lovely that you want to base your life on principles set by a nomadic tribe that acknowledged the existence of more than one god 2000 years ago. Please don’t expect other to live under the same laws.
Please tell me how my marriage to the one I love has any bearing or effect on your relationship or marriage?
Seems part of respecting other people is also knowing when to keep your nose out of their PERSONAL busniess.
You guys are trying to point out some inconsistency in the Bible? How cute. You’re all full of it. It won’t work. I’d explain it to you but I’ve reached my limit of pearls thrown before swine for the day.
@fredo777: @fredo777: I think he’s just saying some nuts are religious. Although there ARE some very nutty religions! Still, whatever floats your boat.
@Thumper: you essentially just said “LALALALA I”M NOT LISTENING!!! LALALALA”
well played you master debater….!
@Thumper: You seem to know us all SO well, as you keep stating what it is we mean with our comments. Why is it that we arn’t worshiping you instead of the GOD we have a connection to? You seem to have no qualms on correcting us on how it is we feel and what it is our point of view is. So why not go the extra step and use your oh so powerful influence over us and make us conform to you narrow narrow way of living?
You are a joke in my eyes. Someone who is just here to cause people with an actual focus and drive to make a difference in our society to get out there and take a stand. So for that, I thank you for your narrow and delusional point of view. Oh ya, God bless you! 🙂
Master ‘bater, indeed.
Wonder how many times he’s checked out Morning Goods since he popped up here.
@fredo777: Morning Goods…If he’s like me at all, I can’t get enough of it!
@fredo777 says: “…the slippery slope argument is a myth + you are the liar here.”
Oh, REALLY? Did anyone think that when the APA declassified homosexuality (under intense political pressure from gay radicals) as a mental disorder in the ’70s that in 2008 public school children in 1st grade would be taken on a field trip to a gay wedding?
Fredo, don’t be ignorant. Your masters in the gay mafia are counting on you to be ignorant. Educate yourself.
@Thumper: Those kids had permission from their parents to attend their teachers weddings.
NO ONE WAS FORCED TO GO!
You seem to be trying to influence how other people teach their kids, while screaming that we are trying to brainwash yours?
Keep throwing those red herrings out there and we, the educated people on the right side of history, will keep swatting them down!
You still havent answered my questions about how my marraige would have any effect of yours.
You mention to Thumper: “You still havent answered my questions about how my marraige would have any effect of yours.”
I think that is a bold assumption to make that this particular bigot is capable of finding himself someone to marry. So I don’t think he can answer that question since he probably isn’t married.
@Jus2Fun: Silly me! you are probably correct. I guess we should doubt the validity of his “children” also.
I’m far from ignorant, pumpkin. I’m just not a fan of your particular brand of bullshit. The fight for gay marriage rights is not about your kids. It’s about ours. And our demanding the life, liberty, + pursuit of happiness that makes this nation great.
Btw, I thought you said you were leaving…
@Dubwise: I didn’t say your marriage would have an effect on mine. I said it’s a step down the slippery slope (a well-proven scientific fact – another way of saying “give-em an inch and they’ll take a mile”) toward my right to state my opinion on gay behavior – my free speech – being taken away. And eventually the removal of my freedom of religion. What you gays don’t realize is that you’re gonna lose those rights too, and you’ll have yourselves to thank. Can’t we at least agree that the basic freedoms this country was founded on are more important than establishing a “right” for a small group of individuals whose identity is based on sexuality?
So much for ignoring me.
You guys don’t really seem to understand what I’m saying, and you’re not addressing my points. Instead you’ve resorted to personal insults and irrelevant talking points. This has become a waste of my time.
@Thumper: your freee speech argument is WEAK.
Your church will not be forced to marry gay people….nor will it have an effect on your ability to spew bigoted lies.
Weddings happen in Churches…NOT marriages. You go to city hall or a JP to get married.
If you are going to throw around slippery slope scientific references you MUST offer a citation.
Itâ€™s funny/sad how you can’t equate basic freedoms and the rights of the minority. You have cognitive dissonance in SPADES!
“So much for ignoring me.”
Well, the plan was to ignore trolls. Then, you seemed to be trying to make some actual sense (though, I still disagreed strongly with you) + as a result, I decided to respond to some of your posts as I felt you weren’t the typical troll.
Having read some of your more recent posts, however, I’m not so sure I made the right choice in engaging you.
@Thumper: Your right to free speach or freedom of religion is not what is in jeopardy. Those rights will never be challenged in this country. Nor is the minority you refer to a “small” group of people.
There are TENS of MILLIONS of gays in America who are angry that the religious folk and uneducated conservatives who are trying to dictate how all walks of life should define, view, and live their lives…especially with marriage. The use of scare tactics, forming false opinions based on fears not facts, thus swaying those who aren’t lucky enough to be properly educated to shun a minority in fear is wrong, and is exactly what has been happening towards us gays. It is our right, as well as yours, to speak up and make aware what it is that these false claims have caused wrongful assumptions. It has added new and unnecessary challenges for all of us, not just gays. It is very apparent that there is no “standard” or “traditional” marriage. Look up the History of Marriage. You will see that marriage was never originally a “religious” institution. Even with the religious views on marriage, allowing gays to marry isn’t going to change anything for the religions. Well, maybe make people of their faith question the teachings of those individual churches doctrines. We aren’t trying to take away what religions teach or practice with their followers. We are simply wanting to have the religious folk to STAY OUT OF OUR BUSINESS since we don’t GET INTO YOURS! Should be simple enough, but you all can’t seem to stop trying to control other peoples lives. Thats sad especially when you can’t control your own lives.
A religious nut talks about brainwashing. Oh, the humanity.
So we still picking on just old ladies and polite, docile, predominantly-white Mormon churches? Or are we being consistent now and harassing the black and Hispanic churches, Orthodox synagogues, and Muslim mosques that openly supported Prop 8?
“We” aren’t doing anything.
Most of Queerty’s readers are having logical conversations while you are posting the same race-baiting nonsense as last week.
Btw, your “polite” + “docile” Yes on 8 supporters have had no problem lashing back verbally (+/or physically), going so far as to bloody the noses of some No on 8 protesters.
Had you ever considered the fact that telling the meek gay people they’re too weak to pick on the big burly black people isn’t only homophobic, but kinda…racist?
Have you considered that it’s hypocritical and cowardly to harass only those whom you don’t perceive as a threat to your physical well-being?
Racist? No, just realistic.
Um, no. We’re *reacting* to those who *are* a threat to our well-beings, physical and otherwise. I’ve only heard the O’Reillys of this world saying we should go be stirring up shit in south Central. Because the O’Reillys (and Brents and boutroses) of this world are RACIST. Simple.
“Have you considered that it’s hypocritical and cowardly to harass only those whom you don’t perceive as a threat to your physical well-being?
Racist? No, just realistic.”
Who is suggesting that we LGBT folks perceive (or should) Blacks or Latinos as a threat to our physical well-being? And why?
Thank God the minature dude is a has been. He probably envisions a future where George H. W. Bush runs for a second term as President with George W. Bush as his Vice President. It is as improbable as the storylines of one of his movies.
This debate is probably over, and no one is reading it anymore, but I just read through it, and I had a question.
I don’t want to offend anyone. I’m just curious.
I know that many gays are interested in securing the right to marriage because legal marriages confer many rights on couples (tax benefits, next-of-kin, insurance benefits etc).
But can’t gays get all of these same benefits through different methods, such as by writing a living will, or by selecting certain insurance companies over others?
I’m not trying to imply anything about the necessity of gay marriage. I’m just curious, because one of my gay friends–who incidentally voted Yes on prop eight–told me that.
I also wanted to agree with whoever said up there that this isn’t necessarily a question of christians vs. gays. Some of my friends who are gay and who voted No to prop eight are also very religious. Similarly, I’m a Christian, but I don’t believe that gays are like what thumper described them as.
Yes, this is picking and choosing what I want to believe from the Bible. (I believe someone said, “If you’re going to believe in the Bible, you’d better believe in it all). The thing is, I see the Bible not only as a religious work, but also as a historical, cultural, sociological and philosophical doctrine that was written over the course of several thousand years by a variety of different authors (the fact that the Bible is divided into different books by different people illustrates that). God didn’t author the Bible; ordinary people who had heard God’s Word did. Taking into account the capacity for human error, as well as the age of the Bible itself, the number of times its been translated out of the original Greek and Hebrew into Latin, King James English, contemporary English etc…I think it’s alright to pick and choose what I want to believe from the Bible.
That’s why I believe in treating my neighbor the way I want to be treated, while at the same time believing that gays are not innately evil or misguided. (Originally, the Old Testament forbade gay behavior for the same reason that it forbade tattooing and shaving–because other societies amongst who the Jews were living–the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, etc–did these things, and the Jews wanted to retain their own, original culture and identity; they did not want to be subsumed).
The posting is old, but the debate indeed goes on.
And regardless of what they tell you, nearly all varieties of christians pick and choose which parts of the bible they choose to follow, and have no intention whatsoever of going to Hell.
You seem to wear your faith with grace, and if those around you are appreciative of it, I’m sure your God will be too.
Pick and choose, we all certainly do that when it comes to the bible. And why not?! Some parts are outrageously offensive and/or unbelievable.
You need to wake up and face reality buddy! Go back to your sister i mean wife…oh sorry same thing….leave the thinking to people with brains and vision. oh and keep your hands off your kids
“Why do gays want to marry?” Basically, I agree. What has the state or church got to do with who I want to shack up with? Abolish marriage completely. Make arrangements to protect the children of relationships, but let’s not have the state or church bless the relationship itself. It’s none of their business. I know this is a question of equality and because of that I suppose gay marriage should be supported, but it sticks in my craw nevertheless. What was Gay Liberation about in the first place? Certainly not to sanctify marriage.
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