Here’s a question we hope you’ll never discover the answer to: What do you do when you’re at the funeral of a loved one and the minister suddenly announces — 15 minutes into the service — that the memorial cannot continue because the recently departed was a lesbian?
If you’re like some folks in Lakewood, Colorado, you take matters into your own hands.
The Denver Post reports that on Saturday hundreds of friends and family were mourning the loss of Vanessa Collier, one half of a lesbian couple and the mother of two children, aged 7 and 11, when the pastor of the New Hope Ministries stopped the open-casket funeral and decreed that service would not go on unless all pictures showing Collier (at left in the above photo) with her wife, Christina, were removed.
Those in attendance say Pastor Ray Chavez insisted there could be nothing present to indicate that Collier, 33, was gay. “Love thy neighbor” is evidently not a doctrine of this particular church. Perhaps it was replaced with “Be a callous and unfeeling hypocrite.”
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So, what did Collier’s loved ones do? They picked everything up — including the casket — and hauled ass out of there, relocating the funeral to a mortuary across the street.
Collier’s longtime friend Victoria Quintana called the experience “humiliating.”
“A church turning away a funeral. Who has ever heard of anything like that happening?” said another friend, Jeanette Arguello.
Friends say New Hope Ministries was selected for the memorial because of its close proximity to where Collier, who police say might have committed suicide, grew up.
When a reporter from the Denver Post called New Hope Ministries, they declined to comment on the incident and hung up. Because that’s what Jesus would do.
polarisfashion
Of course they declined to comment. They are cowards and anything they say to defend this pastor is just going to make them look worse! I wonder if they will be stupid enough to still send a bill to the deceased person’s partner for services not rendered? If they do I hope they get sued but it looks like that the family already has the grounds to sue them anyway.
throwslikeagirl
There’s more to this story than what’s being presented here. Why would anyone choose a minister and mortuary without checking into the background and beliefs of each? As disgusting as this is, and it’s about as disgusting as it gets, at least in the US, I also somewhat fault the deceased family. Wasn’t “New Hope Ministries” a clue? That shouts evangelical as much as “The Rawhide” and “The Crypt” shout gay bar. Caveat emptor.
That said, I’m so very sorry that the deceased’s wife, children, family and friends had to endure this horrific experience, especially going through the trauma of a possible suicide. I hope the kids will receive some counseling. Very sad.
benjaminheyn
+1 303-935-1276 is the phone number if you would like to tell them how you feel!
balehead
I never understand the need to go to the most Homophobic places and then act Surprised when they do this….Is this a Lawsuit Lottery Action??…
IcarusD
From the original article: “Collier’s friends say they still haven’t been reimbursed by New Hope Ministry for the cost of the funeral.”
For that alone I hope they sue. Accepting payment for specified services and then refusing to provide those services or reimburse the payment is illegal.
It does seem strange to me to choose a church that neither the deceased nor her family attended. But that doesn’t get the church off the hook for having policies that apparently were not communicated in advance, nor for not reimbursing payment after refusing to provide the services for which they were paid.
jwtraveler
Christian love rears its ugly head yet again.
Lance Mullholland
@jwtraveler: That’s an unfair generalized, sweeping statement. Informed folk know that using “ALL” Christians is just plain ignorant.
Many of us who actually do follow Jesus’ teachings have taken special care (and made sacrifices of financial support by established denominations) to seek out affirming and GLBT inclusive, truly Christian congregations. People who helped when HIV was an unknown, people who held hands of those dying of Kaposi’s Sarcoma and pneumonia – and those who lovingly laid them to rest (and still do so).
I finally gave up on my Episcopal diocese for not fully guaranteeing placement for its openly GLBT seminarians within its territory, and became an Old Catholic priest instead. No marble palaces or pension plans or fancy church buildings.
Turn the other cheek when you spat on it by saying we’re “ugly” Christians? Yes, but I won’t do it quietly. I’m looking forward to the day when I can marry Texas GLBT couples with valid Catholic rites. I already bury our dead and gladly visit the hospice and hospitals.
Please don’t confuse the mice with the cookies in our large jar!
jlfbman
Freedom of speech I applaud….Freedom of hate filled discrimination??….such behaviour needs to be highlighted and exposed for the world to see.
Charli Girl
This is on Houston local news FB page right now. You should see how the haters are ripping them apart for their photos! Saying they were ” provocative” REALLY? SHE WAS KNELT DOWN PROPOSING TO HER NOW WIDOW!! But I suppose HETERO marriage proposal photos SOMEHOW look different? GTFOH!!!
technicolornina
@Lance Mullholland: My understanding of the Catholic church is that it comes in two basic flavors: “We wish the higher-ups would just get off their butts and stop this discrimination crap” and “HOW CAN WE BE EVEN MORE HATEFUL THAN THE HIGHER-UPS BECAUSE THAT’S DEFINITELY WHAT JESUS WOULD DO,” the former being more prevalent than the latter but the latter being louder because, well, the higher-ups (mostly) endorse it. It sounds like you belong to the former. Much kudos.
Lance Mullholland
Sounds like you’re talking about the ROMAN (big) Catholic Church. We left them back in the 1700s in Holland. About half of our clergy are OPENLY gay, and we all are free to speak our minds.
As for the RC ( 1 billion + members) Church, you may be right in some cases, but there are progressive theologians and priests who stick with it and refuse to be chased off. Some have patience, some don’t and leave.
See “Old Catholics” on wikipedia – we didn’t run when the pope sicked the Jesuits on us – we stuck it out and stayed our course in Holland, Austria, Czech Republic and Switzerland. And yes I know: no one wants a history lesson when it’s easier to be purely emotional, but… there it is.
We have several brave priests who gave up lucrative careers here in Austin. Fr. Jayme Matthias left a large Austin RC parish (Christo Rey) before he was middle aged to start Holy Family American Catholic Church – where you see lesbian couples with arms around each other in the same room with 80 year old (and loving) old people. He openly announced that he left the RC Church because he is a gay man and priest, and would no longer be quiet.
If you generally hate Christians, that’s your burn to hold onto. But give those who don’t make the news their due credit. AND, the 99.9% of Roman Catholic priests who “quietly” do their work each day – not touching children and (quietly) ministering to GLBT folk – unknown to their superiors. I have a LONG list of those “quiet” priests who love and include EVERYone. Whole congregations who support their gay music minister and invite he or she and their partners to dinners at their homes. Those won’t make the QUEERTY headlines.
It’ll never be enough for some of you, but it’s your choice. Bitter table for one, or the generous table of the Lord of Love?
isafakir
no comment suffices. godless. soulless. trolls. not the lord of the ring kind either but ugly soullss trolls living on the hat they can generate.
Sweet Boy
Pure Christian love and charity
Dear Lord Jesus Christ….save me from your followers !!
nature boy
New Hope started in Hawaii and has become huge, expanding across islands and to the mainland. They were the main organizers against gay marriage in the recent legislative session, sending busload of their members to testify in an excruciating public comment period that legislators patiently sat through and then overwhelmingly approved gay marriage anyway. I think of them as “New Hate.” They do seem to provide a lot of positive support regarding cleaning up your life to people who have had financial, addiction, and emotional problems and they do draw huge crowds, so it is really too bad that they maintain this anti-gay posture at the same time. They’ve faced many lawsuits in Hawaii as well over various issues including using school campuses as worship locations, so it’s no surprise they’re in the news again. My impression is they’re not the most well-educated people.
lcandela123
@Lance Mullholland: The problem is that the huge majority of the good clerics keep quiet, and let the haters run the show. Sort of like the police dept. We constantly hear about the majority of good cops and only a few bad apples. Yet, there is this police code of silence that lets the bad apples literally get away with murder. So, are they really good cops?
And how good are your good clerics?
Kieran
They should change their name to “No Hope” Ministries. As in, “No Hope of finding the love and mercy of Jesus here”.
Clark35
@throwslikeagirl: Agreed.
[email protected]
I wish this family had found a welcoming congregation to become engaged with rather that having to pick a church in an emergency. That said, what the pastor did to them was shameful.
mezzacanadese
Surely the Pastor knew that this was a same sex couple. Some crackpot must have complained, someone who contributes generously to the church. At any rate, the Pastor owes an apology to the diseased family, particularly her partner and children, but it will probably not be forthcoming. It is unbelievable that someone who calls himself a Christian can behave in such a manner.
RevJames
And this surprises, well who exactly?
jpcflyer
These tax-exempt businesses are really political-action hate groups and should lose their tax-exempt status.
Clark35
@[email protected]: They made the choice to pick this church. As “throwslikeagirl” said there’s more to this story we’re not hearing.
ShowMeGuy
@balehead: The church probably doesn’t have a sign which reads “No fags or dykes allowed” hanging from one of their crosses.
This is a simple case of a fauxmerican minister who hates The Gays acting like a complete douchecanoe. I wonder if the good minister refunded the family’s rental fee payment for the facilities?
Burn that godless church to the ground.
OzJosh
I thought their God Fairy was supposed to be all-seeing, all-knowing. So how was removing photographic evidence going to make it okay for the service to proceed? Pastor Whatnot isn’t just a hateful bigot, he’s a moron.
EqualityForAll
@Lance Mullholland: @Lance Mullholland: Lance Mulholland, I have to say – I am impressed not only with what you have said, but the way you have said it. By your words, you seem to be holding true to your beliefs. So rare these days, and I commend you for it. Thank you.
loxbutch
AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY I AM ORDAINED!
(I’m legal by the way)
YOU CALL YOURSELF A MINISTER!??
THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST DETESTABLE, ABHORRENT ROTTEN PIECES OF EXCREMENT I HAVE EVER READ.
IF ANYONE NEEDS A MINISTER FOR A FUNERAL, YOU LET ME KNOW!!
(or anything else)
I WILL DO IT FREE AND NOT WALK OUT!!
(Just get me there and I will be!) I don’t freaking care if its raining, snowing, during an earthquake, or a hurricane, I’m there for ANYONE! I don’t care WHAT religion or spirituality you are!
YES I AM LIVID!
THIS IS WHY SO MANY PEOPLE CAN’T STAND RELIGION! YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY PEOPLE LEAVE YOUR CHURCHES AND DON’T COME BACK??
Billysees
@Kieran:
“…”No Hope of finding the love and mercy of Jesus here”.”
Yep…
Clark35
@OzJosh: You do realize that the majority of people who are Theists or even Christian do not believe in God as a “sky fairy” or whatever nonsensical thing atheists use as a meme.
Apparently this woman Collier died “when her gun went off while cleaning it.” which is fishy (no pun).
Clark35
In the article:
“Higley posted the following clarification to her Facebook page on Wednesday: “Vanessa’s services were NOT refused because she is a ‘lesbian.’ Her services were refused because we would not let New Hope Ministries ‘edit’ her life which was a slideshow of our family photos including our engagement and family photos of her and I with our two children! It never crossed my mind that it would be an issue considering we paid to use their facility ONLY. We brought in our own Pastor to facilitate.” (It’s unclear who that pastor was and how Chavez, the pastor for New Hope, came to be the one to halt the service.)”
I’m confused. New Hope Ministries knew Ms. Vanessa Collier was gay and her lesbian wife, Christina Higley, entered into a contract to use their facilities. Pastor Raymond Chavez representing New Hope Ministries cancelled the funeral already in progress??!!!! Because Collier showed family pictures not pre-approved????
Something’s missing from this story.
jwtraveler
@Lance Mullholland: Of the 8 words in my comment, none is “ALL”. Nor did I say you were “ugly” Christians. I was using an ironic turn of phrase to make a point. Doesn’t say much for your reading skills, does it.
Jesus’s teachings were beautiful and his followers have spent the last 2 millennia invading and conquering foreign lands, enslaving, exploiting, displacing and murdering millions of non-Christians in order to spread those beautiful teachings to the rest of the world. Along the way, those noble men of the cloth have raped and abused countless thousands of children or more. And then there are those holy wives of Jesus, the Irish nuns who spent decades selling and killing the babies of unwed mothers, while forcing the mothers to work as virtual slaves as penance.
I have no doubt that there are many Christian individuals who are good people doing good work in the world, but the history of Christianity in the world is nothing to be proud of. Good people do good things. Their affiliation with any particular religious group is coincidental and irrelevant.
The fact remains that the organized forces of Christianity in the world today, and in this country, are still most often engaged in acts of discrimination, oppression and hatred. This doesn’t seem to be what Jesus’s teachings were all about. Perhaps what you and your brethren really need is to learn how to read.
Lance Mullholland
I apologize for my shortcomings. Are you quite through?
Despite your marvelous reading abilities, you have yet to acquire any manners.
Are you from up North ?
Ellen
Did he somehow find out fifteen minutes into the service (that he was leading, I presume) that she was a lesbian, or did he know before the service but for some unfathomable reason choose to wait till 15 minutes into the service to make an issue of it? Either possibility is really odd. (And I hope someday just the fact of discrimination against gays will be equally odd.)
Ellen
Okay, I see reading the comments that the pastor was not leading the service.
blackberry finn
The minister’s prejudice is now exposed nationally and that will have some effect. Never compromise your beliefs, folks.
technicolornina
@jwtraveler: There’s a great quote attributed to Gandhi that best sums up the entire Christian religion:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
I know Gandhi had a buttload of other issues (including INCREDIBLE racism), but on that one he was on POINT, man.
tdx3fan
@throwslikeagirl: Personally, I blame the deceased. I mean, if she would have just pre-planned her funeral then this would have never happened. It is very important to pre-plan your funeral, pre-plan your funeral today!
Actually, having services at a fundamentalist church after I die is not a way to honor my memory its a way to get me to haunt your ass… haunt your ass real good.
tdx3fan
@IcarusD: The services were offered considering reasonable accommodation. Since this Colorado, that is probably the defense that they would go with. The minister did not “refuse” to do the service, he simply said he needed the family to “hetero-wash” the woman before he could continue.
tdx3fan
@Lance Mullholland: Seriously, you are talking about a religion that at the best is used for open discrimination and at the best is used for background discrimination. The ONLY major religion affiliations that went pro-gay did not do it to be inclusive… they did it because they were dying out and they knew where the money was. Why not welcome a gay man in who makes $200,000 a year and has no kids. That is how you build your dowry. Its very smart business practice. Meanwhile, you might lose a few members but they probably did not make any real money and had kids so why would you care. Churches are big business!
tdx3fan
@technicolornina: The larger overarching problem I have is that religion and mental health for gay people seem so incredibly at odds. You show me one gay male that grew up in a religious background that has no mental health problems because of that and then I will talk about how great religion is.
tdx3fan
@Lance Mullholland: Honey, my “bitter” table is overflowing with people, and I did not have to believe in warped out mythology to make it that way. The problem is at the end of the day that anyone that has read the book completely understands that it is a homophobic misogynist slavery and racism supporting rag that is about as well written as your common dime store novel. You will never over come that because that is the book your religion is based on… you can sugar coat it all you want, but that is still the basis of all Christianity. Most people I know that have read the book are a special kind of special or are atheist.
tdx3fan
@EqualityForAll: I hold true to my beliefs. It is my belief that religious nutcases are religious nutcases no matter how shiny the case is.
tdx3fan
@jwtraveler: Dude, if they learned to read they could start with the book of mythology known as the bible and then read about their actual history as a religion. No one in their religion wants that… its why they do not know how to read. Hell, Catholic mass was conducted in Latin (a language that has been dead for hundreds of years) until the 1980s.
Bauhaus
@Clark35:
Her LESBIAN wife? Go away, troll.
Bauhaus
@tdx3fan:
You’re one to talk about inclusiveness and “being at odds,” when you’re only for “some” gay rights, and businesses having the right to choose whom they want to do business with.
Merv
Here’s a list of things Christians believe:
* The earth is 6000 years old
* Evolution is a lie from the pit of hell
* It’s OK to sell children into slavery
* Genocide is acceptable, including the killing of children
* Women should be treated as property
* And last but not least: Gay people should be executed
They can’t claim that all the above are merely words, because their history is replete with examples of every single item on the list put into practice. It really is a religion for irrational psychopaths. You have to wonder about the humanity of anyone who would call himself or herself a Christian.
nature boy
Actually, Merv, that kind of blanket statement is just as ignorant as the beliefs you are describing. With Christians representing about a 1/3 of the world’s population, or about 2.2 billion people, there is quite a spectrum of diversity across “what Christians believe.” Even for the first 300 years after Jesus death, there was a quite a debate and diversity over what Christianity would become, which for the West only began to be really formalized with Constantine in 325 AD.
Some Christians are quite well educated and intelligent people. I’m most familiar with United Church of Christ (UCC). On the national level, UCC was the first Protestant denomination to ordain an African-American pastor in 1785, the first woman pastor in 1853, and the first openly gay minister in 1972. So tDXfan above is also really incorrect, in that UCC took those steps very early in the national debate about race, women’s rights, and gay rights, and I’m sure this probably cost them quite a bit of money in the short term. But their CHRISTIAN beliefs told them it was the right thing to do.
Stereotyping Christians is just as ignorant as stereotyping gays, blacks, etc.
Merv
@nature boy: So, one tiny Christian denomination decided to stop persecuting gay people 2000 years after Christianity introduced homophobia to the world? Sorry, I’m not impressed. It really can’t be stressed enough that Christianity is pretty much the sole reason for the persecution of gay people around the world. Sure, Judaism was homophobic, but it wasn’t an evangelical religion, so there was a limit to the damage they could do. Before Christianity, homosexuality may not have been universally popular, but the insane, irrational seething impulse to stomp out any hint of homosexuality in any form simply did not exist. And they spread it around the world, including to cultures that didn’t even adopt the religion. Considering the many crimes against humanity perpetrated by Christianity, anyone who would call himself a Christian deserves our contempt.
CharlieM3
@Lance Mullholland: Of course you are right to a degree, it is the GDnd evangelical xtians that I detest. No, I don’t believe in loving your neighbor that hates your existence. It is time to bring back the romans and the lions.
jwtraveler
@technicolornina: Yes, I read that recently. Quite on point.
tsginamarieva
Say hello to the God Nazis of the Christian Right. Heartless, evil bastards like that pastor are just more proof that the pedophile priests weren’t anomalies. They were canaries in the coal mine, harbingers of the malignant scum that are coming out all over the world as the LGBT community achieves full citizenship. They’re not simply “good, God-fearing Christians” expressing their religious beliefs, as they claim. They are bigots with crosses. And the only difference between them and the Klu Klux Klan are bedsheets and books of matches.
mollygreen
I have to agree with Lance Mulholland. Do these people even read the bible? I’m not condemning here, I’m just saying that if you’re going to do something in the name of something, you better be knowledgeable about it. Jesus hung out with the “outcasts” of his day–lepers, tax collectors, “loose” women. He loved them and spent time with them. Since the LGBTQ community is not fully accepted into our society, I’d say if he were alive today he’d probably be right there spreading the love, and stopping hate like what this pastor did. I can’t stand that all Christians get lumped into the same hate category but that won’t change until others start speaking up. Love your neighbor as you love yourself, doesn’t meant only love the straight, white, attractive, nice, etc., neighbor.
Nate
I started a petition calling for a public apology or the immediate resignation of this Pastor. Please take a minute to add your voice.
https://www.change.org/p/new-hope-ministries-lakewood-co-immediate-resignation-of-pastor-ray-chavez?recruiter=8899869&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=des-lg-share_petition-no_msg
Nate
@polarisfashion: They’ve also blocked me from their facebook page for expressing my opinion. Good one.
fireman452
@Lance Mullholland: and name calling is a Christ like attrbute. Bottom line, Dzierdzinski created the KGB and the Soviet version of Scouting. He also was responsible for personally sending thousands, perhaps millions to the death camps in Siberia. Had it not been for him Lenin would have fallen flat on his face.
Same can be said for the christian sects, only their guy never even met Christ. Paul fabricated the stories that made this religion what it is today. When you start looking at the facts you find their was no resurrection, and most of the “miracles” never occurred either. We are no longer in the mode of superstitious aboriginals. There is just too much information currently available that make this whole thing by Paul one huge fiasco.
erspears
@throwslikeagirl: @throwslikeagirl: Victim shaming. How original.
Lois B
There’s got to be more to the story. It makes little sense that the pastor stopped the funeral just before it was to start. Did he have no idea that the woman was gay? Seems to me that the ones who hired that church or that pastor had some problems.
tsginamarieva
Wow, Lois B, you’re very gifted. Not many could work a back-handed slap at the victim, rapid homophobia and antisemitism into a single comment. Congratulations.
You can’t seriously suggest that the family of the deceased should have reasonably expected that a “House of God” and the “Man of God” who runs it would be so consumed by fear/anger/hatred of the LGBT community that he would disrupt a commemoration of a person’s short life and tragic end to serve his own animus. How would anyone think that? The article said that they chose that particular church because it was close to the neighbor hood where she grew up.
Lois B
@fireman452: Good to know where you stand. The miracles of the bible have never been disproven. Who are you to call Paul a liar?
Lois B
@Merv: And no, Christianity didn’t introduce homophobia to the world. Judiasm did.
Heather0
I’ll probably be bombarded after the post, but after reading some of the comments, and seeing the religious bashing, I couldn’t help myself.
1st of all – I am not gay.
2nd – I grew up as a Christian, in several different religions, mainly Baptist & Methodist. I am now in a non-denominational church.
And just as I love anyone and everyone I meet and NEVER judge their lives, my church is the same. They welcome everyone with open arms.
I also have gay friends that attend church on a regular basis.
So before you start saying “this or that” is horrible or homophobic, as a blanket statement, just realize not everyone has hate in their hearts.
Saint Law
@Lois B< Paul was a liar. A mediocre fanatic capable of turning a pretty phrase.
Oh and while we're at it: no one has disproved the universe to be bounded by a wall of cream cheese.
Merv
@Lois B: Judaism introduced homophobia to the Jews. Judaism was and is an insular religion. It was the Christians who introduced it to the world.
nature boy
is it really true that Christianity introduced homophobia to the world? It seems to me that I’ve heard of plenty of homophobia in Islam, in India, in China, etc, in places that are certainly not Christian nations. I’m curious and definitely ignorant on this subject. It does seem to me that homophobia exists in many places where it cannot be blamed on Christianity.
nature boy
in fact looking at this map of homophobia in the modern day world, I think the case could be made that conditions for homosexuals are largely much better in predominantly Christian nations than otherwise, particularly if you look at the populations of China and India.
nature boy
http://www.citylab.com/politics/2014/02/global-map-homophobia/8309/
DavidIntl
@Lance Mullholland: Lance, I do not share your religious views, but I very much appreciate the moderation you exhibit. If all religions of the world were represented by people such as yourself, we truly could all peacefully coexist.
Billysees
@nature boy:
“…I think the case could be made that conditions for homosexuals are largely much better in predominantly Christian nations…”
Definitely very true…
That’s because mature, ‘practical’ Christianity is a ‘love’ based religion moved and motivated by the ‘Spirit’ and some excellent scripture verses.
Here’s an example of some of those verses —
1. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way…..Romans 14:13
2. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God…..Romans 15:7
3. …all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble…..1 Peter 3:8
4. Be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone…..Titus 3:2
5. ABOVE ALL, LOVE EACH OTHER DEEPLY, because love covers over a multitude of sins…..1 Peter 4:8
6. Let your gentle spirit be known to all men……Philippians 4:5
tsginamarieva
Lance Mulholland, you may well be correct about the majority of good Christians not agreeing with the ilk of the pastor of that church. The problem is that it doesn’t matter if it’s a tiny fraction of Christians who are instigating the hatred and discrimination against the LGBT community. They are attempting to ostracsize decent, productive law-abiding citizens from society because they disapprove of their lifestyle. That isn’t appropriate., it isn’t Christian and it is American. But as long as the “good” Christians stay silent, the others will be the face and voice of their faith. They’re letting the worst of their brethern bastardize their belief system. And as long as they let them do so, they are guilty by association.
Merv
@nature boy: @Billysees: No, so-called “Christian nations” are not enlightened when it comes to homosexuality. Are you forgetting that they routinely executed gay people for hundreds and hundreds of years? The reason gay people are doing better now in these countries is because people have started to reject Christianity. The change started with the Enlightenment, which was a reaction against the abuses of religion. Really, the only reason we are making the progress we are now in the US is because we had the good fortune of having our Constitution written near a peak of Enlightenment thinking. If it had been written a few decades earlier or later then it would be full of “gawd this” and “gawd that” and we would be truly screwed right now.
Billysees
@Merv:
“…”Christian nations” are not enlightened when it comes to homosexuality.”
Whether they’re enlightened or not, I don’t know. As long as they’re treating LGBT’s better and better than they’ve ever done is what’s really important.
“Are you forgetting that they routinely executed gay people for hundreds and hundreds of years?”
Yes…and let’s continue to forget what they did for many hundreds of years. What’s important is…what are they doing now?
“The reason gay people are doing better now in these countries is because people have started to reject Christianity.”
I think that the people of these countries are not at all rejecting Christianity but rather they’re seeing and living out ‘mature’ Christian ideals, which are always expressed by liberals, as simply illustrated by at least the 6 verses I mentioned earlier. How do they know what these ideals are I’m not sure. Maybe the ‘Spirit’ or ‘Holy Spirit’, as it is more widely known, is doing a good work in these folks on behalf of the LGBT community world-wide. Maybe there is some kind of ‘pouring out’ of the Spirit and we LGBT’s are on the receiving end this time around.
There may be some merit to your last two sentences.
There are many good comments in this column deserving replies for this article.
Brodie
To the person who posted that it seemed pretty clear by the name of the church that ‘New Hope’ would be evangelical. Um, no. Not to me anyway and not to lots of others. I’m not into religion. The thought of a puppet god pulling strings to make my life better than some child’s in Africa or the homeless man on the corner just leaves me with too much skepticism. And no, I don’t think God loves Tim Tebow best or cares who wins the Superbowl. Because of that, I (and millions like me), don’t follow what church names give away. To me “New Hope” sounds kind of new age and progressive. That would have been my logic. I grew up going to the Evangelical United Brethren Church which when I tell people, they all jump on the ‘evangelical’ piece of the name. Nothing ‘evangelical’ in the classic sense happened in my church. We walked in, sat down, waited, rose for opening prayer and song, sat more, rose for the Lord’s prayer, song, and closing prayer. Later that church merged with the United Methodist……another show up, sit and be talked to denomination. So to me, “New Hope would mean……New age….open, inclusive. Apparently I would be wrong. For those who are sayng, “Well, its weird to go to a church you know nothing about….” Not really. If you aren’t a church going sort, you don’t know much about any of them. The article clearly stated the location was chosen because it was close to where she grew up. I would take that to mean they were being considerate of travel demands of the largest number of people who loved her. I may be wrong, but that would be logical to me. It sounds like this family simply wasn’t church goers and needed a location. I would not have thought about whether a church was ‘receptive’ to how they lived. It is a funeral. My heart goes out to the family and friends.
Billysees
@Brodie:
” I’m not into religion.”
I wasn’t either except for realizing that from my church days, some ‘good things and attitudes’ rubbed off on me that I carry with me to this very day. Namely to accept my being gay with a joyful spirit. I’m grateful for all of that too.
But I became somewhat enthusiastic about religion after I read an old book called “The Man Nobody Knows”, a discovery of the real Jesus, authored by Bruce Barton. That book sort of caused me to flip out to realize for the first time in my life the following — Oh, is that who this guy is? Is that what he’s like? What a mind opener that was. ‘The most popular diner guest in Jerusalem’ was attributed to him and his ministry.
“The thought of a puppet god pulling strings to make my life better than some child’s in Africa or the homeless man on the corner just leaves me with too much skepticism.”
That’s a good, yet very difficult to reason out comment. That causes me to wonder deeply about the nature of a creator-God.
“I grew up going to the Evangelical United Brethren Church…”
Gee, you’ve gotta be an ol’ timer like me if you can recall going to that church. I grew up actively going to the Methodist Church before they merged with your Evangelical United Brethren Church in 1968, to become the United Methodist Church.
“We walked in, sat down, waited, rose for opening prayer and song, sat more, rose for the Lord’s prayer, song, and closing prayer.”
Wasn’t there any sermon?
“Later that church merged with the United Methodist……another show up, sit and be talked to denomination.”
‘Talked to’ must be your wording for ‘listened to a sermon’. Important things can be imparted to a congregation of listeners if the sermon material is relevant and full of love stuff like that sample of 6 good verses I mentioned in an earlier post here.
Cheer…
nature boy
To the anti-Christian fundamentalists who have posted here, i found some information on MLK JR’s wikipedia page that I found relevant both to the holiday and the debate:
“King was originally skeptical of many of Christianity’s claims.[13] At the age of thirteen, he denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus during Sunday school. From this point, he stated, “doubts began to spring forth unrelentingly”.[14] However, he later concluded that the Bible has “many profound truths which one cannot escape” and decided to enter the seminary.[13]”
“The summer before his last year at Morehouse, in 1947, an eighteen-year old King made the choice to enter the ministry after he concluded the church offered the most assuring way to answer “an inner urge to serve humanity”. King’s “inner urge” had begun developing and he made peace with the Baptist Church, as he believed he would be a “rational” minister with sermons that were “a respectful force for ideas, even social protest.”[18]
King’s faith was strongly based in Jesus’ commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself, loving God above all, and loving your enemies, praying for them and blessing them. His non-violent thought was also based in the injuction to turn the other cheek in the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus’ teaching of putting the sword back into its place (Matthew 26:52).[32] In his famous Letter from Birmingham Jail, King urged action consistent with what he describes as Jesus’ “extremist” love, and also quoted numerous other Christian pacifist authors, which was very usual for him.