Advice columnist Dan Savage has defended his previous endorsement of a straight man toying with gay men on Grindr.
The controversy began last month when a man identifying himself as ALPHA wrote Savage to confess he loved engaging in sexually explicit chats with gay men on the app, then ghosting them. ALPHA refers to himself as straight, but says he loves demeaning and dominating men in conversation. Savage, deferring to advice from therapist Alexander Cheves, endorsed the practice as a healthy one.
“We all enter Grindr chats willingly, and we should do so knowing that anyone we talk to may have no plans of following through with their promises to meet,” Cheves wrote at the time. “Many queer men do the same—talk and tease with no intention of meeting—and for similar reasons. The guys he is messaging are chatting with him consensually, so I don’t see any consent violations.”
Now a reader has taken Savage to task over his advice.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
“So long as ALPHA—the straight guy who likes to demean and degrade thicc gay boys he finds on Grindr—is upfront with these guys and tells them he’s straight and tells them he has no intention of ever hooking up with them IRL, then what he’s doing is okay, I guess,” a reader, calling himself “Too Pissed For Acronyms,” writes. “But if he’s not disclosing all those facts about himself, Dan, then he’s pretending to be something he’s not and that is not okay.”
Related: Dan Savage warns: don’t hook up with your friend’s “straight” boyfriend…even if ya wanna
“Straight guys leading gay guys on for attention is repulsive,” Too Pissed concludes. “We’ve got enough problems out there without you giving straight guys permission to fuck with our heads.”
Savage, however, doubles down on his earlier conclusions.
“Grindr and other hookup apps are full of guys leading each other on—sometimes intentionally (not interested in hooking up IRL), sometimes unintentionally (circumstances and/or guy trouble can derail a wanted hookup),” Savage says. “Everyone who gets on Grindr knows or soon realizes that not every chat or exchange of pics leads to sex. Like author and Grindr user Alexander Cheves said in that column: ‘We all enter Grindr chats willingly, and we should do so knowing that anyone we talk to may have no plans of following through with their promises to meet.'”
“And in ALPHA’s case, I don’t think he’s leading anyone on,” he continues. “He seeks out gay guys who fantasize about masculine, domineering, and unavailable straight jocks. He may be f*cking with some guys’ heads, TPFA, but he’s only f*cking with the heads of guys who get off on having their heads f*cked with in exactly this way and by exactly his type. I mean, who better to fulfill the hot, unavailable straight-jock fantasy than the hot, unavailable straight jock?”
We’re not so sure on this one. Is “f*cking” with anyone’s head–even someone who “likes” it–ever ok? Does that not just reinforce the mental self-harm and self-loathing, possibly resulting from previous abuse?
Weigh in in the comments. Is it healthy behavior?
Matthewnow
Of course it’s not ok. Rightfully stated, It is adding to the homophobic dialogue gay men and women must endure every day. Hey Dan, if you like sex as much as you say, BITE ME!
DarkZephyr
“Grindr and other hookup apps are full of guys leading each other on”
So…I guess his defense is that there are LOTS of a**holes on grindr anyway, so that makes it OK? Ugh. Definitely not on board with Savage or Cheves on this one.
” I mean, who better to fulfill the hot, unavailable straight-jock fantasy than the hot, unavailable straight jock?”
Savage is making some assumptions here. That the guys this douche bag are talking to are seeking out “unavailable straight jocks”. But if the piece of sh** isn’t disclosing that he’s a straight, unavailable jock, then how the hell are they supposed to know that’s what he is? Seems to me the default assumption is that any man on Grindr is into sex with men, so its likely that most guys he is talking to are NOT trying to fulfill that fantasy. I am also a bit disappointed that Savage is associating masculinity with heterosexuality here. I had (apparently mistakenly) believed that he wasn’t the type of self loathing gay man who did that.
UlfRaynor
Your whole argument completely disintegrates when you compare it to the top performers in the gay p0rn industry, which are mostly hyper masculine, G4Pers.
There isn’t a single major studio that doesn’t rely on them, even the gay owned and operated ones.
Den
Except the poster you are responding to DOES NOT make that comparison, so your statement is irrelevant to the question at hand, and it does not make his “argument completely disintegrate.” People are on an app like Grindr for specific reasons, and those reasons rarely if ever include being led on, ghosted or played with by hets with low integrity and thinly veiled homophobia.
There is an undeniable difference between someone performing in a gay porn film and people looking to hook up, or flirt on an app. And it is a difference that is not at all hard to understand.
DarkZephyr
@UlfRaynor my whole argument “completely disintegrates” because of porn? Well…I see that porn is really meaningful in your life and special to you, but as Den pointed out, it has nothing to do with what I was even talking about. The Gay4Pay genre of porn is one thing, going on a dating app specifically about men who actively seek to have sex with other men is something else entirely. If you are seeking gay4pay porn, you want to watch gay4pay porn. If you are seeking out a hookup on Grindr, you’re seeking out a man who is interested in having sex with other men. You are NOT seeking out an unavailable guy, jock or not.
But just one thing…gay4pay men ARE having sex with other men, so technically they aren’t “unavailable jocks” now are they? They are making themselves very available for pay…the name of the genre says it all, so your whole argument disintegrates.
myrdraal2001
Isn’t this just catfishing? How is it different? If he did this to a woman would it be ok? What if a gay guy did it to a straight guy? If a woman did it to a man? Dan is wrong on this one. Leading others on is just a jerk move no matter their reasoning.
Goforit
Frankly, I don’t know that anything we do on Grindr is healthy. But I am not going to go through years of therapy because someone didn’t tell the truth on Grindr.
Winsocki
Gay men have been leading str8 women on for years, so nothing new here. As for ‘honesty’ on apps … they were never honest in analog life on Lonely Hearts column set ups. Online is not really real. It is image and p.r. Gay men then should get the faux str8 dude all hot and bothered. Opportune time for seduction LOL. Mind Games ….. face it. Nothing is Real …. take a peyote button and ‘see’.
PerhapsYesNoMaybe
So in summary, there are a lot of creepy people in the world, including people with failed hollywood careers giving bad advice.
DuMaurier
I can’t really “defend” it, but if it happened to me (I’ve never used Grindr) I don’t think I’d be emotionally devastated. Maybe it’s my generation, but I think it’d be kind of exciting, even when it ended in “disappointment”. Flirting is sometimes most of the fun.
Plus–again referencing my age–gay guys obsessing about cute straight friends, and jokingly (and not so jokingly) strategizing and speculating about what it would “take” to overcome their straightness so something might actually happen was a very very big thing back then. I don’t know if it still is, but especially when alcohol was involved it sometimes did end in something happening–or ended in an uncomfortable, unpleasant situation that required an apology. I don’t think this Grindr thing is any worse than that.
barryaksarben
I ususally agree with Dan but not here. THe guy is lying about everything. Yes, people lie but this is wrong. You can lie about how you look but to say you are gay and go on a gay site when you are meaning to cause harm then you shouldnt
RandomGuy
You mean people still listen to Dan Savage…Why?
Inspector 57
Dan Savage is Perez Hilton minus most of the outing behavior.
He has all of the qualifications to give advice as do Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz.
Invader7
Dan Savage is a traitor to the gay community he claims to be a part of . Dan has officially SOLD OUT and has NO credibility or substance giving advice to ANYONE. Giving permission to Str8(?) men to mess with gay men’s minds. We already have enough BS to deal with . Now that he has made his $$$$ and has ” fame ” , he sides with straight a-holes.
Donston
Guys who constantly highlight a straight, gay, bi, etc. identity online or on apps are frequently driven by politics, sociology, ego, fetish. At this point, it’s all just a bunch of game-playing, especially since these words don’t even mean much of anything any longer. While Grindr at this point in particular does appear less like a dating/hook-up app and more like a passé, toxic cesspool, mostly for folks looking to indulge fantasy from a distance or simply looking for some quick attention and affirmation/looking to troll.
So, I do get where Dan is coming from in some ways. However, it’s never smart to pretty much encourage someone to lie and to deceive others. While if a “straight presenting” guy is constantly going in a space looking for male affirmation, looking to indulge male fantasies, and looking to deceive people then he clearly got some stuff going on. There are some things that he needs to try to understand in his psychology or in his sexuality or in his placement in the gender, sexual, romantic, affection, comfort, emotion, commitment spectrum. While pretty much telling someone that it’s okay to bait and deceive tons of folks just because a lot of other people do it, it is definitely cringe-y and borderline problematic.
UlfRaynor
You just described every gay p0rn company in existence, even the ones owned and operated by gay men.
As it turns out, gay men are predominately attracted to masculine men, go figure, who would have guessed.
Donston
From my experience, most guys who are unabashedly into guys prefer dudes who are also unabashedly into guys. I’m starting to think that a large percentage of folks who post here have not actually met many “gays”/“queers” outside of apps and porn. Porn and hook-ups apps do not represent the majority. Most “gays” are not on hook-up apps and most “gays” do not obsess with pornography. If you base everything on that, you’re gonna have a very limited and often ignorant view of “gay”. It’s the same thing as using RuPauls Drag Race as a beacon. “Queers” are way more diverse and varied than that. And it honestly just sounds like you’re using your own shit to project on everybody else.
Anyways, all of that has little to do with my post. The only points I was making is that the internet/apps are full of “label” game-playing, baiting, deception, doing shit out of of insecurities/clout/ego. However, pretty much encouraging someone to deceive people and convince folks that you want them and want to see them, it’s just a shitty thing to do. If there’s an understanding that this is all fantasy and we’re gonna keep this on this app, that’s one thing. Trying to convince a bunch of dudes that you really are interested in meeting them personally but then ghosting them is shitty (and that seems to be what he was doing. From the article, it appears as if he was getting off on convincing these dudes that he wanted to meet them, not just getting off on being “straight presenting” and on worship). It’s a shitty thing to do and a shitty thing to encourage. There’s no way around that.
connorlarkin19
Somehow Grinder gays are infallible, emotionally well-formed and never lie, cheat on…the whole premise is feeding the ego and narcissism.
I agree with Dan Savage on reasoning, not their(hurt) feelings.
cubcmh
I don’t see how this is any different on a consent level than any other BDSM relationship.
I haven’t seen the chats, or the article by Savage. Assuming the reporting is accurate, the recipient knowingly entered into the conversation, fully cognizant that the troll was straight and enjoyed demeaning Gays on Grindr, then ghosting them?
If the recipient didn’t want to be ghosted and/or humiliated, they should have not continued the chat. What – were they thinking they’d actually convert the guy and it would end in hot sex? That’s just stupid on their part.
Now, if the sender DID NOT disclose the information, he’s just a dick.
dannysax
I confess I am at a loss to know what TPFA stands for here? I googled it and came up with nothing relevant. But I do believe there are a lot of gay masochists who love to be demeaned and scorned as part of their fantasy (whether or not it’s verbal or physical). I don’t think it’s healthy but it gets their rocks off, so who am I to say it’s wrong? I don’t think Dan Savage should encourage it, but it is a part of reality for some people.
eeebee333
At the very least, ALPHA and others like him are assholes. Savage should have acknowledged that.
cuteguy
Agreed
frankcar1965
Shut up Dan you fraud, where’s all the It Gets Better money for the young gays? Did your husband spend it on the milking machine and boys? Fraud Fraud Fraud
Creamsicle
Let’s be real. Grindr sucks. There is so much toxicity on grindr, so many flakes and fakes. On top of that, the app itself sucks. It just has an effective brand at this point. It has very few useful functions, there’s tons and tons of bots and scammers that the company does nothing about.
In fact, I’m convinced that the company runs or encourages them, since it can often get a user who hasn’t gotten any traction lately to check the app again if they receive a message of any kind, and that’sall it takes to serve them another add for Pur for Men, or a shitty phone game.
No wonder all the young guys are just hooking up through Twitter and Insta DMs.
Donston
Grindr isn’t really a thing any longer. It’s been overran by scamming, attention whoring, trolling, bots. And even at its peak it wasn’t as big as the media tried to make it seem. I only knew a couple of folks who ever used Grindr, and they have both moved on from it.
quantum
Not to mention half-assed research studies, one of which through a “database error” doxxed a random man’s HIV status to me.
Max
encouraging ghosting is not good or responsible social behavior.
Tombear
I agree with Savage. There are no victims on a dating site only volunteers!
Donston
That sounds overly judgmental and also incorrect. There have definitely been many people who have been scammed or have become rape victims, robbery victims, murder victims through these apps and “dating” sites. You’re giving off very: “well, you were on those apps and you wanted a ‘straight guy’ fantasy, so whatever happens to you is completely on you”.
As far as what Savage said, I don’t think about it in the context of “victims”. Indulging your fantasies and other people’s fantasies is one thing. However, it is off-putting to pretty much support someone constantly deceiving people and ghosting people. It’s just not a responsible thing to suggest. Hell, what if one of these dudes track him down? He also should have told the guy to try to investigate within himself and suss out the dimensions of his ego, his psychology, his sexuality, where he is in the gender, sexual, romantic, affection, emotion, commitment spectrum. Why he gets off on being “straight presenting” while looking for attention and affirmation from male “queers”, why he gets off on getting people’s hopes up and then ghosting folks. That would have been the more responsible thing to focus on. Instead, he made it a joke and almost endorsed constantly ghosting folks.
cuteguy
I understand both sides of the argument. On one hand it’s cruel to lead anyone on. But on the other hand, Grindr is sometimes a game for some, gay or straight, and one can compare to the fantasy of being with a gay for pay stripper.
n2boxers
I have been reading the Queerty thread for years, and have never commented. But I had to speak now, upon reading the cuteguy post. It was thoughtful, fair, non-divisive and true. Thanks dude!
Ronbo
Oh my Gosh!
Are the kids upset that there is going to be a slight pause in their cum guzzling habit? And… the lush are upset that Dan Savage supports the freedom to say “no”.
If your life is ruined because you missed your midnight feeding, I suggest you put away your tots n toys, pull on your big boy pants and try a real relationship. That pain is authentic.
LumpyPillows
I was going to actually research this to see what the full story is, but why bother. With Queerty anymore I’m sure it’s another hatchet job for clicks.
buddhadude
I think Grindr should be disassembled for the good of the community. I think for all parties concerned it is toxic and has created so much division and hurt in our community. I’ve had several budding relationships end abruptly because my ‘faithful’ guy was honking up and I caught them. I think I need therapy because of the stupid app. I know someone will say it’s not the tool but the Individuals and that’s right but we don’t let small children smoke cigarettes because it’s harmful why should we support a toxic, anti-community app?