One of the ongoing fallouts from the Charlottesville protests has been the systematic identification of individual white supremacist marchers, driven in large part by @YesYou’reRacist on Twitter. The effort has led to some low comic moments: Despite Peter Cvjetanovic being captured on camera carrying a tiki torch and shouting furiously, he insisted, without much reason of being believed, that he was “not the angry racist that you see in the photo.”
As the shame campaign shows, doxing has become the new outing. With so many digital fingerprints available, it’s increasingly easy to sleuth out the background of questionable characters and shame them in the public space. Doxing and outing share similar philosophies–some things are so bad that the expectation of privacy gets tossed out the window–but there are some critical differences.
For one, outing was usually confined to high-profile public figures: mostly religious leaders, politicians and actors, many of them living in a glass closet while doing damage to other gay people. In particular, it was aimed at hypocrites who spouted homophobia publicly, like now-former Reps. Edward Schrock and Jim McCrery, while giving every indication of being very comfortable with gay sex personally. (To say nothing of Aaron Schock.) Celebrities were sometimes targeted because their popularity could change attitudes.
Related: Sh*t show of the highest order: Twitter was NOT having Trump’s racist rally in Phoenix
But ordinary people marching in gay pride parades? Not so much. In fact, it’s the right wing that’s been most engaged in doxing gay people, often those working for Catholic organizations. In one notorious case, an official working for Catholic Relief Services was outed by a right-wing group based on his social media postings. The justification: He was in violation of Catholic teaching (even though he wasn’t Catholic.) The official ended up resigning.
That’s the slippery slope of doxing (and, to a lesser extent, outing). Doxing often goes beyond mere identification to reveal much more personal details, including phone numbers and addresses, opening up endless possibilities for harassment. Harassment is quite different from shaming someone who deserves it.
The outrage that drives these actions is in the eyes of the beholder. Is it okay to call someone out by name for being a white supremacist? If you’re marching in a public rally, you don’t have much expectation of privacy. But is it okay to target his workplace? One Charlottesville marcher was fired from his job at a hot dog stand in Berkeley after it was identified as his employer.
It’s hard to work up any sympathy for the loathsome characters chanting anti-Semitic and homophobic slogans in Charlottesville. But sometimes easy cases still raise hard questions. It feels good to see white supremacists get their comeuppance.
The issue is whether the means for doing so are the right ones.
Xzamilloh
It’s only okay to dox people if you are ready and willing to be doxed yourself based on holding contrarian beliefs. On one hand, I feel that if you take the mask off and broadcast your belief in public with your face clearly behind those thoughts, you accept the responsibility of people possibly finding out who you are. But I will not and will never support people being exposed and harassed at their place of work, their homes, or having their families attacked. Or being assaulted, which I see happening a lot with the alt-right and regressive left.
Chris
This is uncharted and potentially dangerous territory. What will happen when DACA demonstrators are Doxed? Or when it happens to demonstrators whose employers thought they were out on sick leave but, instead, get Doxed as Antifa? To say the least, I’m worried about the human wreckage being left in the wake of this ever-escalating conflict.
Brian
Human wreckage is a small price to pay for people being able to pat themselves on the back and brag on social media about their slacktivism. Those thousands of Yelp reviews ain’t gonna write themselves.
Paco
You have no privacy out in public. So it is probably best to avoid marching with neo-Nazis if you aren’t one yourself. Their philosophy is an evil that has cost millions of innocent lives in the past and should be confronted and never allowed to repeat a terrible history.
Paco
I’m really appalled at the false equivalencies being made to give sympathy to neo-Nazis. It’s as bad as Trump’s “on all sides” comment.
mj7417
I think we all agree that neo-Nazis and their ilk are horrible people, and none of us have sympathy for them. When it comes to your statement of false equivalency, I get where you are coming from. The fact of the matter is though, that if we start doing it, they are going to use it as a free pass to dox people. In a perfect world, they wouldn’t, but it’s not a perfect world. It will just open Pandora’s box, and they will start doxing people who attend liberal rallies for being gay, their immigration status, and anything else that you can think of. This will especially be the case in red states, and people can lose their jobs and much worse in those places. I think that this is the main reason that people here are hesitant about doxing people, even with such disgusting views as neo-Nazis. They realize that it is a slippery slope, and it may not end well. It will be like what they did to Kathy Griffin but instead involve private individuals, and I don’t think anyone wants that.
Paco
Another thing, Queerty…
These neo-Nazis and white supremacists are outing themselves. They are marching in public at high profile politically charged events with media, social media and cameras recording everyone and everything.
There is a very good chance they could be recognized by their boss, co-workers, neighbors, or family on Facebook or the evening news showing them screaming “Jews will not replace us!” And “F@ggots!”.
They alone are the ones putting their relationships and livelihoods at risk.
Paco
@mj7417 –
I’m not going to draw an equivalency between liberal rallies, gay pride marches and undocumented imigrants fighting for the right to contribute to our society, with neo-Nazis gathering to spew hatred to incite fear and civil unrest. It’s unconscionable to even try to.
mj7417
I’m not making a comparison. I agree with you. They are two different things. I just worry about them doing it to us because they will.
mj7417
They will out people to their families and employers (risking them getting fired in 28 states), get people deported, and much worse. Those are the people I worry about. If doxing becomes a thing for both sides (which it will if one side starts doing it), they will be forced to stay home from any kind of protest in fear of being outed for one thing or another. Should it be that way? No, but it will be. Then, when we complain about it, the other side will say you did it to us, and keep doing it to us. The consequences to this could be horrible and even deadly. That is what I worry about.
Paco
@mj7417
Being outed or exposed while participating in public events is a consequence of our connected modern age. Everyone has a camera in their pocket and are obsessive about posting stuff for the world to consume.
If you are deep in the closet about any belief, the price of staying in he closet, is now avoiding any place that is going to show your participation to the whole world and preserve it for all eternity on the internet.
Exposing the real life info of an anonymous person online is doxxing. Getting recognized by someone you know from a photo or video on the news or internet is not the same thing. We are only anonymous in public until someone recognizes us.
mj7417
So do you believe that people who are undocumented should have to worry about getting deported while protesting their rights? It’s already happened under the Trump administration where they have picked people up and deported them at an immigration rally. If the right wing starts helping ICE by doxing undocumented people that attend these events, do you think that they should just deal with the consequences because they chose to go in the public to an immigration rally? Or gay people should just realize they shouldn’t go to pride because their boss in Alabama might fire them? I’m really curious about your thoughts on the issue.
Paco
Again you keep using groups seeking equality and rights to defend the indefensible. Freedom of speech is not freedom from social consequences for that speech.
Do I want undocumented immigrants deported for protesting not to have their families broken up? Of course not. They have to make the choice though if it is worth the risk to be recognized on social media because someone could know who they are and report them.
How do you propose keeping the faces of people out of everyone’s social media feeds during public events or conflicts that everyone is paying attention to? You can’t.
mj7417
Well then, I can say that I respect your position since you acknowledge that it would work both ways, and you are okay with that. Oh, and as a gay Jewish guy whose grandfather fought the Nazis, please stop saying that I am defending Nazis. They are indefensible, disgusting people, who deserve all the misery life brings them. My only point is we have to be careful because if we do it to them, they will do it to us. You acknowledge that though, so I respect your opinion. Have a good day.
Brian
“Again you keep using groups seeking equality and rights to defend the indefensible”
Here’s the thing. They are EXACTLY the same thing. That is the whole point of free speech, it’s being allowed to do these things no matter what your beliefs are. There are no false equivalencies, a gay pride rally is exactly the same as a white supremacy rally which is exactly the same as a veterans parade which is exactly the same as a BLM rally which is exactly the same as a pro life rally which is exactly the same as an immigration rally. The only difference is where your opinions on the issues differ from mine or anyone else’s, and neither of us have the right to tell any of these groups that they can’t express their own opinions.
And these days the consequences of doing any of this is that you’re going to have a whole lot of strangers on the internet butting into your life and trying to ruin it because they don’t like your opinion.
JoeyRamone
Paco, you are missing a crucial ramification: doxing is an imperfect practice. There have been cases of mistaken identities. Lives can be ruined. Doxing can be a form of vigilantism and also used to frame people that others don’t like. Look, if some can be clearly identified and are recognized by employers and those who know them, that’s one thing, but for anonymous individuals (some with dubious motives) to take it upon themselves to identify others, sometimes based on sketchy evidence, is a dangerous and slippery slope.
jkb
If they treat people appropriately at work, and don’t break any relevant laws, then I don’t believe these people should be “doxed”. It doesn’t seem that there was any suspicion of them being antagonistic at work or wouldn’t they have been fired already? To be honest, part of me giggles when I see stories of these severe consequences; another part of me feels that it is unAmerican, particularly if they are behaving as I described above.
Paco
If a co-worker was exposed publicly advocating for the removal of your rights or even advocating against your right to exist, would you not feel uncomfortable around them at work? Even if you aren’t, other employees may be. It could easily create a toxic environment in the workplace.
Thankfully many companies have learned that hate is bad for business.
Brian
That’s the thing that bugs me about all this. People are always saying that these actions have consequences, but since when are the appropriate consequences for exercising your free speech rights or making an asshole remark that your entire life should be ruined and filled with death threats by a bunch of strangers on the internet who don’t even know if the story is actually true or not?
Captain Obvious
Coming from the site that outed TEENAGERS on Tumblr for having fetishes you didn’t personally approve of?
Now you’re defending the Alt Right and white supremacists? I’m about done with this site.
richard2179
This is the wrong way to deal with these white supremacists. A better solution than outing them at work would be to whoop their arses with you size 13 heel. When they show up at work on Monday their bosses will see the marks upside their heads and know they got their arses whooped by an angry drag queen. THEN the gig will be up!
KaiserVonScheiss
Is doxing people more or less likely to radicalise them?
JaredMacBride
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
barkomatic
The problem with doxing Nazis is that in the rush to be an Internet hero, people have been misidentified as participating in these rallies when they had nothing to do with them. Innocent people have had their lives upended and have faced threats. Sure, corrections can be issued but the damage has been done. For this reason, I don’t support doxing, but it really doesn’t matter because people desperate for attention and praise will do it anyway.
Hussain-TheCanadian
It is better to fight Nazis with words, fists and wooden bats today, than to fight them with tanks, planes, and missiles tomorrow.
Josh in OR
Outing someone exposes them to potential harm for something which is an inherent trait. Downing a fascist exposes them to potential harm because of their proveably false beliefs and despicable life choices. No one is born a racist, they choose it, they have to live with their choice to be a human garbage fire. That is the difference.
ALSO, if you doxx an antifa member, you are most likely to find a young, white college-aged kid who is on the front lines in a battle against extremists of his own ‘race’ and is willing to take police brutality and a bit of jail time in place of one of the minorities they march beside. A kid who, were there no Nazis/neo-Nazis/white supremacists/corrupt cops to fight, would be home playing video games and eating Nutella.
If you doxx a Nazi/neo-Nazis/white supremacists/corrupt cop, you discover a young, white, college-age kid who is ‘doing it for the lulz’ because he’s never had to face any consequences yet for his life choices. Or you discover a middle-aged, white guy who thinks that being white makes him better than anyone else, to the point that they will beat, kill, drive a car into members of their own ‘race’ for the crime of saying other people have value too, and who votes against his own interests because Jesus hates Jews/fags/n****s/immigrants/’welfare’/…whatever.
If the fascists win, only white, straight, Christian people will have value, and they will push to take their garbage world-wide. If antifascists wins, no one has more inherent value than anyone else, and we get affordable healthcare, labor unions, the 5 day work week, the weekend, a minimum wage, food stamps…
Plus, when you doxx a Nazi, they reveal the quivering, weak little man-baby they really are and they run away and stop being assholes in public, because most fascists are bullies, and most bullies are cowards. Chase them all back into their smelly man-caves to sulk in the shadows and under ridiculous ghost costumes, where they belong. Expose rot to sunlight, so everyone nows that their boss/employee/neighbor/co-workkker wants them dead for being brown, or gay, or a woman who isn’t perpetually pregnant and subservient.
Josh in OR
‘Downing’ should be ‘doxxing’…I am mobile, so my autocorrect is an idiot…
PinkoOfTheGange
“Nazis/neo-Nazis/white supremacists/corrupt cops”
One of these things is not like the other
One of these things doesn’t belong.
Only one of them is a criminal, the others are people that have different beliefs then most. In the US at this time, are they a potential danger…darn str8, but they are not breaking the law by existing only by their actions.
Doxxing anyone is wrong.
Prax07
@Paco And what if at your job you’re “uncomfortable” around Latinos that stick to groups of other Latinos, that only speak english when necessary, that have neck tattoos and tear drop tattoos? Is it cool with you if I put in a concerned call to immigration and tell my employer I don’t feel safe working around them?
Paco
So people with tattoos speaking in their native language is the same to you as a white supremacists yelling in public for your annihilation. Interesting.
Brian
Now who is making the false equivalencies Paco? Nice evasion of the question though.
Xzamilloh
No one should be supporting calls to violence either. It’s how we end up with Charlottesville and the countless terrorist attacks by “radicals”
Prax07
@Paco Yep, pretty much the same thing. I’d feel safer actually with the neo-nazis. If a group of Blacks/Latinos were walking down one side of the street, and a group of neo-nazis was walking down the other, as a white guy, I’d definitely feel safer walking on the neo-nazi side.
Brian
Why stop there? Let’s start doxxing black guy robbing liquor stores by posting surveillance footage online. Let’s start doxxing illegal aliens by posting pictures of people crossing the border. What could possibly go wrong? If it’s on the internet it must be true, right?
Sure, at least 2 people identified as Neo Nazis were nowhere near the Charlottesville rally, and god knows how many people who happened to have the same name as people who were identified suddenly had a bunch of Facebook and Twitter do gooders trying to get them fired from their jobs, but it’s the greater good that’s more important, right?
DCguy
What a shock, another GOP troll account brings up a “Black Guy”.
Uhhh, sweetie, I have news for you, police have been making surveillance videos public for decades. But nice try on trying to invent a phony scenario.
And just so everybody notices, ANOTHER GOP troll account defending Neo Nazis
Brian
Yes, police have been making surveillance videos public for decades. But they don’t run out and arrest the first name they get, they actually investigate and try to come up with actual evidence that the person in the video is the right person. They’re not just throwing names on Twitter because some invisible internet person gave them a name.
So nice try on trying to create a phony scenario.
Brody
Ironic, being that it’s the antifa rioters who conceal their faces for fear of being identified (i.e., voxed) by their parents.
doug105
Nope but don’t worry about the truth just call it fake news like your Führer and move on.
Black-clad anarchists storm Berkeley rally, assaulting 5
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/ct-berkeley-protests-20170827-story.html
DCguy
Please notice that the accounts that normally defend the GOP are the same ones on here defending the Neo-Nazs.
That pretty much says it all.
As for “Doxing” what a joke. Did these people go out in public? Yes, Did they see the media cameras? Yes. Ohhhh, so they were out in public, saw the camera, but we’re supposed to feel sorry for them the same way as if a closeted kid’s family finds out ‘s gay because somebody sees his car 60 miles away at an lgbt coffee shop?
Brian
I don’t think anyone has a problem with pictures from the event being shown publicly. The people who were there were there, and if people who know them recognize them, let the chips fall where they may.
However, that is not what doxxing is, is it? When you’re publicly posting people’s names and contact info and youhave no idea if the identity information you were given is actually accurate, then you are doing something very wrong.