We never bothered posting the actual video for Lady Gaga‘s newest single “The Edge of Glory” because you can see it in almost every other gay blog, gay bar, bathhouse, and roller rink. But now that some homos have made a fan-made video with hot men and women in it, we decided to give it a go. Don’t ever say we never did you any favors. We’re like the Willy Wonka of eye candy.
EYE CANDY
Fan-Made Video For Lady Gaga’s The Edge Of Glory Features Gay Wedding, Ridiculously Attractive People
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grayyoung
this is like 12268264643834287327823 times better than lady g’s version. still love her, but this is the direction she should have taken the video in the first place…
sean
so beautiful 🙂
Stupid
boring.
jeff4justice
Thanks for the favor. Prior to this I have never seen a beautiful person before.
Chip
Wonderful video; thanks.
BT
The dark haired groom is a trainer at Equinox in West Hollywood. He seems like a nice guy, always friendly.
Sebizzar
@Stupid: YOU’RE boring! This was lovely & much better than the “official” video, i hope everyone sees this 🙂
christopher di spirito
Lady Gaga the singer? Great.
Lady Gaga music videos? Uneven.
Listen, I’m a fan but the only Lady Gaga video I can truly say I liked a lot was ‘Bad Romance.’ The rest? Not so much.
This Edge of Glory video is really good. I think she should hire the people who made it and employ them in the future.
Mark
Boring? I sent this to my partner of 17 years today, which is his birthday. It sends a message of love, hope and commitment. @Stupid, I hope all our lives are so boring, I know mine is and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.
Zack
I have the same alarm clock. Now i just need to get the rest of the things in the video. :o)
Beautiful
sam
although the video’s cute, it’s kinda funny that the song is about death -_-
scott ny'er
thanks for bringing this video some attention. it’s great.
Lon
Great video. Actually got confused about who was marrying whom (woops), but am really happy with the ending.
lol
OK video.
Mark
It’s like beauty and the bee
Jaroslaw
Cute Zack….I don’t even have the alarm clock. However, I do finally have a guy – it’s going well, so maybe we will get married on the beach. I will say this video is beautifully done regardless. So is the trainer at Equinox Gay or Straight? He’s yummy!
Jaroslaw
Jeff4Justice – even though I liked this video a lot, I’m not one of the beautiful people either so I know where you’re coming from.
neil
Aside from the boutonnieres being too big for their lapels, this was quite a lovely and heart-warming video. It would make a great stand-alone video.
SG
I thought I would hate it but I loved it. Loved the piano version at the end.
sandy
Great stuff! I also liked the video about a stereotypical gay guy on YouTube. Believe me, it gets better. http://youtu.be/NBFlc-RP9M0
Black
Great video. But WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE OF COLOR?!?! (I counted 2…the Asian woman in the audience and the guy presiding over the ceremony who may or may not be white) People of color are all too absent from depictions of gay marriage and many other images of mainstream gay culture!
Henry
The guy with thick eyebrows and mullet is stunningly hot.
Aaron in Honolulu
Was it just me or did you notice that one of the grooms was dashingly handsome and the other was really NOT. lol
Gawd, I’m a jealous bitch.
Aaron in Honolulu
@Black:
I’m saying this as a tan young man…
Whether anyone likes it or not, it is a fact that white skinned people tend to make up the majority of America’s population. So, depending on location, if you randomly filmed a crowd of people you are going to see a lot of them. I highly doubt the director or the people involved in making this music video had any intensions of controlling the racial diversity of their actors or extras. It just so happens to be that the actors and extras available to them in the area they filmed were predominately white. That’s it.
Although it is true that whites dominate cultural media in the US, this pattern is true for any society any where on Earth. Those who dominate in numbers tend to dominate it’s culture. You go to China, you’re gonna see a Chinese dominated culture. You go to India, you’re gonna see an Indian dominated culture. I’m not saying that society SHOULD be this way but that it is just the REALITY of the time being.
Our society is still evolving. Having a truly diverse society where every type of person will have a spotlight will take time.
Black
@Aaron in Honolulu: Of course whites make up a majority of America and therefore dominate cultural media; however in general, people of color are disproportionately underrepresented in queer media compared to mainstream media. I agree and disagree with some of what you said, and there is a lot to be said about images of race in queer media–and queer culture in general–but this is probably not the appropriate forum for that discussion. I don’t mean to single out this video in anyway…it’s great and I loved it.
Anyway, I did not mean to take away from the flow of important commentary about the eye candy in the video. Both of the grooms are stunningly handsome (though the friend of the less handsome groom is the cutest of them all). But I’m totes a jealous bitch too! 😉
Wizard of Blah
@Aaron in Honolulu: @Black:
Let’s be honest about this, most weddings of white Americans are not going to have many people of color because, to be fair, they may not know any/many.
As for “queer media,” the idea of beauty that is drummed into our heads is a handsome, slim muscular white male or woman. Men of color are an after thought. Some creators get it, others don’t.
A small film like this put together on a shoestring by some friends? Give it a pass.
Larger productions are a different story. Although gay males make up the majority of fashion designers, they are INFAMOUS for hiring only white models to represent them on the catwalks. People of color, yellow, brown, or black, are deliberately not hired.
In films, we can see something similar: Look at the “Eating Out” movies. Isn’t one of the creators a biracial Filipino/white man but I can’t recall every seeing a person of color in a substantial role in those films. Would it really be hard to find an Asian, Latino, or African-American on a college campus or in a metropolitan area where the movies are set? Apparently so.
As for Aaron’s comment about China and India, that really is a poor example. Both of those countries are more homogenous. They aren’t immigrant based cultures and have relatively few people who aren’t natives. Right? Right.
GayFilmmaker
The dark haired groom was in a movie called 3-Day Weekend showing off his assets.
Steve
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2300533/
neil
@Aaron in Honolulu:
your comments re india and china show that you don’t have an understanding of the composition of the United States compared to the rest of the world.
As has been said, the United States is not homogenous so the lack of diversity in any media (gay or straight) is not reflective of America but rather a stylized understanding.
Black
@neil: @Wizard of Blah: @Aaron in Honolulu:
Looking back, I really regret being dismissive of my own comment. If this isn’t the right forum to take about race (and dare I say…racism) in the gay community, I don’t know what is. Am I saying the makers of this video are racist? Absolutely not. Maybe they are…I don’t know them, but that’s not what I am arguing at all.
I do, however, take issue with Aaron in Honolulu‘s claim that the those involved in making the film had no control over the racial diversity of the film. They certainly had control over how attractive the people in it would be, and I have to back Wizard of Blah up in saying that there is a pretty narrow definition of what attractive is in the gay community, and person of color is usually not in that description. Is this true in non-queer media too? You bet it is! But I think it is even more the case in gay culture, which is sad since we supposedly take pride in being different from the norm.
I also wholeheartedly agree with both Wizard of Blah and Neil about the ridiculous comparison of the U.S. to China and India. Those two countries are very racially homogeneous and therefore in no way reflect race in America. That is not to say they are not diverse in other ways (ethnically, religiously, or class-wise) but they have a very different history and present day experience with race.
Please don’t think of me as the militant black man because that is not who I am or how I intend to come off as. But instead, I am just trying to raise a point that is often ignored, conveniently overlooked, and many times silenced: race issues are important in the gay community. And yes, race issues penetrate every group and fabric of our society. But we cannot brush it off. Our community cannot solve all of these problems, but we cannot at least be aware of it. I think lack of awareness and understanding is the reason for some of the ignorant (NOT to be confused with stupid or intentionally offensive) statements made in the response to my first post.
It is easy to think that race and other forms of discrimination are not pervasive in the gay community. Even as a person of color, I tried to ignore it for a while too. But to do so is being naive and we have to be honest with ourselves. As we continue the important fight for marriage equality and seek to end various forms of discrimination, we have look within and also address our own internal problems.
Jaroslaw
Black – first you say “absolutely not (to the racism of the filmmakers) and then you say ‘maybe they are?’ Do you know your own mind?
I’m really not against you though, because I understand where you’re coming from. For decades, Gays were ignored, much like people of color. But as Wizard of Blah also said, and you didn’t comment – this is a shoe string production by a group of friends “Give it a pass.” Now how about the reverse? Suppose you lived in a Black neighborhood (near where I live, there are lots of them.) If someone there decided to make a video, are they supposed to ‘go get’ some White people? Or Asians?
I have a friend who is American Indian, and he has been treated terribly, often, by groups which are ostensibly open to all but are dominated by one or another (larger) minority group.
Much of the time, too, when people feel like they are being beaten over the head with something, repeatedly, they tend to tune it out. Not saying you’re doing that but you do convey that discrimination is pervasive and simultaneously say ‘Gays alone can’t solve it.’ True enough, so instead of ‘being aware’ of the problem, propose some solutions!
Black
@Jaroslaw: First off, I appreciate your thoughtful commentary and constructive criticism. Let me respond first by saying I do “know my own mind”. If you read closely (though it’s not written in code) what I wrote, was that I my argument is in no way, shape, or form that the filmmakers are racist. They very well could be and they well could not be. Again, I’m not suggesting they are, but I don’t know anything about them and therefore cannot come to any conclusions about them.
If you keep reading what I wrote–and I am slightly questioning whether or not you actually read what I wrote or just skimmed it to get the gist–I said “I don’t mean to single out this video in anyway”. I made that comment explicitly and in part because I know this is an amateur film. However, this is yet another example of a larger issue which is why (despite my initial lash-out) I tried to broaden the conversation in my later comments. I realize it is unfair to target these particular filmmakers.
Thirdly, you raise a good and interesting point about if the situation were ‘reversed’. I will answer your question honestly and no, I don’t think blacks, Asians, or Latinos would necessarily, actively recruit whites for their film. I think the best explanation for this (not necessarily right or justifiable) is that when people feel underrepresented or otherwise excluded from mainstream culture, they tend to create subcultures. As you point out, gays have been ignored in mainstream society throughout history and we have therefore developed our own gay culture. Similarly, people of color often feel ignored within the dominant gay culture and have developed different subcultures in the gay community. A feeling of ownership may make them hesitant to allow those viewed as mainstream in for fear of losing what they have worked to cultivate. The same could be said of the dominant gay culture. For example, we expect greater, positive representation of gays in the large mainstream media, but probably would not be so keen on the idea of having LOGO start regularly airing shows about straight people. So again, is all of this right and justifiable? No, but I think that is accurately answers your question.
The second (but more extreme) explanation to put it simply could be racism. Let’s not forget racism towards whites exists too (I hope nobody here thinks racism is a one-way street…) and there might be racist attitudes that would stop one group from including another group in their video. But as I said, that is more extreme and not as likely to be the reason.
I’m going to end there for now and I could keep going on but I think this is long enough and I’m tired. Additionally, I’m not really sure how to respond to your last few points (I’m sorry your American Indian friend is treated horribly…) and not sure what you’re getting at. And while we might agree and disagree in some areas I really do appreciate your thoughtful post. As for your last statement, I alone cannot and should not propose solutions and you’re right awareness alone is not enough. But awareness does lead to action, whether consciously or subconsciously. So I think having these thoughtful conversations (my solution for now) does at least get people thinking (even if they disagree with me), which will hopefully turn into some kind of action, no matter how small.
Jaroslaw
Dear Black –
Thanks for the kind words of appreciation…..
I don’t know if this will give you an alternative perspective just to consider; but I had a Black friend for many years before she moved to Virginia. Haven’t spoken to her in a few years, she may have passed on, she would be about 90 I suppose……Anyway, she said that she had spoken to me more about race than anyone in her life and we didn’t speak of it much! But the one thing I will always remember her saying: She had no problem going to Black only schools, or riding the back of the bus, because she never felt inferior. She always said the real issues were equal pay for equal work and equal funding of the schools. Now one could make the argument that having certain people ride the back of the bus let other people keep the illusion of superiority and therefore pay less. I don’t know. You and I didn’t live through it, (I’m presuming you’re not 80 or 90) she did.
So in a roundabout way, if White people have to bring in everyone to not be bigots when naking a video, then I think the reverse must apply also. Not letting you off the hook that easily! (just for the record, I belonged to a Black women’s group 25 years ago as an “honorary” member since I helped out all the time. I knew Black history long before they had the TV spots in February….so I know how awful things were and sometimes still are). But a victim mentality accomplishes little except keeps leaders in power, which is what most of society is about anyway.
As to my Indian friend, come on. You can easily figure out what I’m saying.
Last, I would disagree that awareness is enough. If you can’t think of a couple suggestions, probably other aware people aren’t either.
Black
Again, I really encourage you to read what I wrote! I did explicitly say “…awareness alone is not enough”. That does not mean raising awareness is unimportant or ineffective. Being cognizant of something does impact one’s behavior and/or perception of something–no matter how small–whether consciously or subconsciously. So in conjunction with other meaningful actions, I think raising awareness can be a very powerful tool.
As for your Indian friend, I honestly cannot figure out what you’re saying…at least in the context of this conversation.
I’m also trying to understand your anecdote about your other friend and how it fits into this discussion. Not saying it doesn’t, I’m just having trouble making the connection. Also, it sounds like she agreed the ‘separate but equal’ mentality?
Additionally, I did not call anyone a bigot nor did I say it was the responsibility of whites alone to encourage diversity. Again, I will point to something that I wrote that I thought was pretty clear: “…is all of this [referring to the exclusion of whites from black/Asian/Latino/etc. media] right and justifiable? No…”
It is very possible that we disagree with each other on this issue. But seeing as you keep responding to things that I never wrote or suggested, it is difficult to see where we are disagreeing. The two major points you brought up in your last post are things, at least the way I’m reading it, that we seem to agree on…
Jaroslaw
Ok, you said you were tired, so I thought this would continue tomorrow, but for the sake of clarity, I’ll spell it out.
1. You’re not reading what I wrote. I never said awareness is unnecessary. But if YOU who are advocating change can’t think of some examples to suggest, quite likely others will feel the same way. I didn’t say you had to think of ALL the solutions. Didn’t say you had to solve the problem all by yourself. Most people, I think need concrete things. Like “Save the Earth” sounds good, but a big, daunting job. However recycling glass bottles is something I can do. Perhaps turning the thermostat down a bit in the winter to save fuel.
2. My Indian friend probably looks more White than Indian, but even after he explains that he is also a “person” of color, he tends to get snubbed. Many have the mentality that no one has suffered like ________ (fill in the blank with the group of your choice). Much the same mentality that I get at work – Gay civil rights have nothing to do with Black civil rights. They see no similarities because they didn’t “choose” to be Black, but I “choose” to be Gay. So it is kind of sad & ironic to me that a discriminated against group discriminates against someone else!
3. The story about my friend was to say that how marginalized you are often is in your own mind. Marcus Garvey said as much. She did not care one way or the other. I don’t think she liked the principle of course, but she wasn’t going to let that interfere with learning as much as she could. ** In other words, create the subcultures, but if the larger society underrepresents you, especially in things that don’t count, rise above it. Easier said than done, but even if rising above isn’t always possible, at least don’t obsess about it. *** This is not to excuse racism, discrimination etc. but for some who deliberately do poorly in school, or all the other subculture/counter culture stuff – does that make things better or worse? What I’m thinking of right now is a real big deal in Michigan – colleges etc. can’t use racial preferences for admission. But if you saw the name Sheniqua, or Nabquese Munee on the application, what do you suppose the race would be? *** In some ways, separate but equal in the south was a blessing. There were Black doctors, lawyers, undertakers, teachers etc. during the period immediately following the civil war. Integration, by itself, was not necessarily the cure-all.
**The town she grew up in Virginia didn’t have a Black High School, so she had to go stay with an aunt, who ironically, treated HER like a slave. She slept in the attic, no windows and she had a smelly kerosene lamp to do her homework with. I readily admit, no one should have to suffer like that to succeed and everyone isn’t up to the task but people who THINK they can succeed get a lot further in life than those who don’t, no matter what the external situation is.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, I know what you meant to say, BUT when you say the filmmakers might be or might not be racist, you ARE suggesting. That is exactly how a suggestion is worded. Sorry to imply you called someone a bigot, I did put that in a post, but I guess I was thinking there isn’t a lot of difference between a bigot and a racist.
I am also sorry that almost 150 years after the civil war, we even have to have this conversation.
Black
@Jaroslaw: So this discussion of whether or not the filmmakers are racist or not is really irrelevant to the larger conversation we’re having. And I probably should not have mentioned it in the first place. But I take issue with your logic. If I said “someone may or may not be x or y, I don’t know,” I’m not sure how you can come to the conclusion that I am arguing or even suggesting they are definitively “y”. If I said “your favorite color may or may not be red, but since I don’t know you and haven’t asked I’m not sure,” would that mean I am claiming or suggesting your favorite color is red? No, it means I don’t know what your favorite color is! But again, this comment is really irrelevant to the larger discussion, but I wanted to make that point clear.
1. LOL again, you did not read what I wrote and instead read what you wanted to read. I did not say you said awareness is unnecessary (in fact, I never said the word ‘unnecessary’ in my post). When I said, “That does not mean raising awareness is unimportant or ineffective,” perhaps that’s where you misunderstood me? There I was simply trying to clarify my position on the importance of awareness; that was not a response to anything you had said.
2. It is unfortunate when anyone discriminates against anyone. But I agree it is especially ironic when any marginalized group discriminates against another, which is why it important for the gay community to address racial and other forms of discrimination in our community.
3. And as for your friend, she sounds like she was a very strong, wise, and inspiring woman. It’s a shame you two lost touch. I also agree that how marginalized one feels can in part be due to their mentality, but marginalization can also very real and ‘tangible’. True, sitting in the back of the bus creates a feeling of inferiority that is mostly psychological. But when someone is treated like less than human by being physically or purposely excluded, barred from accessing or using certain resources, or even violently attacked, would you argue they feel marginalized because they are weak in the mind? (Also, ‘separate but equal’ was not a blessing in the South. There was definitely separateness in the South, but it was far from equal. The overturning of Plessy v. Fergusson with the Brown decision ring a bell?)
If “how marginalized you are often is in your own mind” (…your words, not mine), then shouldn’t the primary goal of the gay rights movement be to change the mentality of those within the queer community who feel marginalized and not work to convince those outside of the community to change their views?
Lastly, this is not an issue I “obsess” over. You might not know it from how much/often I’ve written in this thread, but trust me, I have plenty of other fun, exciting, and important things going on in my life 🙂 In fact, I could probably count on my hands the number of times I’ve had conversations about race issues in the gay community. But it is an important issue that deserves some attention, which is why I raised it and will continue to discuss it as long as the conversation continues (in here or elsewhere). So please do not think I’m an angry black person (with a white boyfriend by the way…surprise!) who sits around complaining about being ‘a victim’ all day. I just appreciate thoughtful and meaningful conversations about important issues. (Maybe it’s the 20 year-old college student in me!)
Jaroslaw
When I was about in the third grade and starting to do serious reading, I consulted the dictionary a lot and was thoroughly confused. As an adult, I can see why – often the way words are used vary based on many factors, which often do not directly correlate with their dictionary definition.
So, what is it with the word “suggest”? I’ve said it twice now – any mention of something IS A SUGGESTION! For example, “The water in the lake turned red. Data gathered suggests it could be from flowers landing in the lake and leeching their color and then sinking to the bottom, undetectable.” We don’t know for sure, it is one possibility. So saying someone might or might not be racist is listing the TWO possibilities and raising the issue IS a suggestion. It is not the nearly same thing as saying “I don’t know if “Black” is coming for a visit today or not.” But even that is a suggestion that you MIGHT come for a visit. I don’t know how else to say it. If I’m confusing and not articulate enough, I’m sorry.
The ONLY thing I was trying to address about marginalization and I admit I didn’t do a great job at it – is to say that the marginalized person can make the most of the situation or be incapacitated by it. My friend Penny (the minister) didn’t let it bother her at all, as I mentioned. This is not the same thing as saying marginalization is an imagined problem. It isn’t. Also I did say leaders ensure their “being needed” by helping problems continue rather than solving them, didn’t I?
I never said ‘separate but equal’ was the best thing ever. But if it allowed for Blacks to go to law school and medical school and tend to their own, then isn’t that a good thing rather than being dependent on others? The intention was bad for sure, but it had some ‘good’ side effects. A Black writer mentioned this, not me. I wish I could remember who said it. In other words, most every cloud has silver lining….or out of the worst thing, there can be some good. That is all I meant.
Yes, I realize you didn’t use the word unnecessary when speaking about awareness, but isn’t that similar enough to the words you used to convey the same meaning? Or not? I thought that it was.
For the record, I’m White and MY Boyfriend is Black!
Black
@Jaroslaw:
Haha, the fact that you also are in an interracial relationship has officially been entered into the record 😛
I understand what you’re saying now with regard to my “suggestion”. Like I said, it was an unnecessary comment that came off wrong. But I will say this: seeing as I mentioned two possibilities it is unfair to look at that statement and say I am suggesting one thing (e.g., they may be racist) over the other (e.g., they may not racist). You made mention of my ‘suggestion’ that they’re racist, but did not acknowledge my other ‘suggestion’ that they are not.
And I see where you’re coming from with regards to marginalization. But again, I challenge you to put your argument in the context of the gay rights movement. Do you think that we (gays) are somehow crippling ourselves by actively fighting against bigotry and should instead make the most out of the discrimination we face? (I’m not ‘suggesting’ anything here…it’s an actual question).
Also, I see what you’re coming from with ‘separate but equal’. I, personally, just would just never describe it as “a blessing”.
And as for this issue about “unnecessary,” “unimportant,” and “ineffective,” I already explained that those words were not being used to describe or directly respond to anything you said.
It’s amazing how much can be lost in written communication (not just between us, but in general). I think if we were having this conversation face-to-face, we would find that we’re in agreement about a lot of things. I think there are just a lot of misunderstood or misinterpreted points that seemingly put us on different pages at times…
Jaroslaw
Dear Black – you’re still missing it. I didn’t need to bring up the other possible because it is YOU who said “Absolutely not” and then followed up with “Maybe they are.” If you had left off the “maybe they are, maybe they aren’t” you would be perfectly justified in what you keep conveying to me.
And don’t worry, I know if I have this much tenacity in “arguing” with my BF, I won’t have him long – but you and I seem to be enjoying this……..so I continue on. If not, please accept my sincere apologies.
Gays & Marginalization – an actual question. I think I alluded to earlier, I have been dealing with race on many levels for far longer and far more has been said about it in books, magazines and newspaper articles……..So I’m not sure how to answer the ‘Gay’ question. Harvey Fierstein once said “visibility at any cost” when referring to Gays portrayed as sissies (only) in movies. Blacks and other minorities may have been marginalized in TV ads, catalogues, but everyone knew they existed. Until fairly recently most straight people thought they didn’t even know a Gay person! And Black people mostly want the same thing – right to vote, right to live where they want, equal pay for equal work. Gays are a cross section of everybody and few goals in common. Or not nearly as many. Sullivan says we are “almost normal” on many levels, Warner’s book “The trouble with normal” says Gay men should fuck everything they can.” (I’m paraphrasing, but not much). He extols fisting as the “first completely new sexual act invented by Gay men in thousands of years….” So I’ve taken up a lot of space to say I really don’t know how to definitively answer your question. But looking at the grossly divergent points of view of Sullivan and Warner and everyone in between, how does one even pretend to “rally opinion” to a new, enlightened point of view about Gays? I’m pretty sure, most of the public would not be too thrilled about Warners “fuck everything you can” attitude. And as mentioned, there are as many opinions on that as there are Gay people. But the same advice “wallowing in self pity doesn’t accomplish anything” still goes. Oh, one more thing, Blacks have the comfort of their families, usually. Gays are expelled from theirs. Minority groups can try to save and educate and pass on wealth or knowledge to their offspring. This doesn’t (and can’t) happen in the GAy world, because Gay people don’t have Gay children. So in this important aspect but not the only one, the marginalization question will never be parallel.
Black
@Jaroslaw: First off, I would like to extend my sincerest apologies. As embarrassing as it is to admit, I misread/mis-wrote my own statement. So I apologize for continuously attacking you for supposedly not reading something that I did not write! My original statement should have said: Am I saying the makers of this video are racist? Absolutely not. Maybe they are, [insert]*maybe they are not*…I don’t know them…” I did however, say that this was not what I was arguing. And again, seeing as it was not my argument, it was really irrelevant and unnecessary.
You raise quite a few interesting and diverse point of views, with regards to different attitudes of gays. But I think it’s interesting you say that collectively, blacks primarily have the same goals but gays do not share this same unity (please correct me if I’m misinterpreting this). Considering your extensive work in dealing with race issues, I’m surprised that you say this. I think you can find just as much diversity in the ‘goals’ and attitudes of blacks as you do in those of gays.
“Blacks have the comfort of their families, usually. Gays are expelled from theirs.” I am fortunate enough to say that I have not been expelled from my family and they have been nothing but supportive of me. I assume you did not mean to make this a blanket statement…
And lastly, while I agree with you that “the marginalization question will never be parallel,” I find it interesting you say this considering your previous statement: “…the same mentality that I get at work – Gay civil rights have nothing to do with Black civil rights.” While you do describe your co-workers particular reasoning for not drawing the parallel, based on your latest statement do you see why some others might not appreciate or take offense to the comparison? (FYI, I do believe that all civil rights movements: black, Latino, women, gay, etc. rights have a lot of similarities and can somehow be linked since we all have multiple identities. So I am not one of those people who gets offended by the slight comparison.)
Jaroslaw
Response to your paragraph three #40 – No of course, I didn’t mean to say EVERY Gay person is ostracized from their family, but you apparently know what I meant. When I wrote that, I had just got done reading a Gay advice column in the paper where the person was welcome to come to the wedding IF they didn’t bring their partner. I was also thinking about 50% of homeless youth are Gays kicked out of their houses.
Paragraph four – now I was VERY careful to say that ONLY in the aspect of family and passing on wealth/knowledge/culture will the struggle not be parallel. Of course, their are parallels. I can’t say it “angers” me that the (a majority but not all Black) people at work can’t see this; it is frustrating though. We’ve been speaking frankly – and again, my experience may not hold true for everyone, but I declare with all my soul I’m telling the truth. For years we had a Black history board at work every February. Games, contests etc. I wrote half the questions. Now when I wanted to have a Gay Pride/history board, every person who was vocal against it (on our building committee was Black – the whole ‘it’s not the same thing’ crap.) The vote was 3 for, 12 against. The 12 against were ALL Black. What was even more frustrating, was I pointed out the Governor had just signed an equality declaration the year before, specifically mentioning Gay people and STILL they voted that way. (we’re state employees) Now do I judge ALL Black people because of this? Of course not. But I will say I’ve worked in three or four different offices with over 100 people each and the attitudes were very similar and that is more than just “interesting.” ***** I also want to respond to your “do you see how others could be offended? No I don’t. Please explain. If a large majority of Black people in my office said to my face “YOU chose to be Gay and there is no comparison to Black Civil rights, they said it. Like I already requested, please elaborate further.
Jaroslaw
oops – one more thing; regarding “Blacks having more similar goals” Well, I’m only looking at what is easily observable. MLK marched on Washington and filled the mall – 100,000 people? 500,000? Whatever it was, it is a lot more than you would ever get Gay people out to because we disagree so much more. Which is to be expected, when you have Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Whites, Young, Middle Aged, Old, all with different agendas. The NAACP has branches in every major city with zillions of members. Black organizations of every stripe, ususally starting with the “Black”. Etc. Am I being unreasonable?
Or another example – When certain Reverends or leaders call for a protest, and 100’s of people show up. I take that to mean they are more or less in agreement with each other. It is obvious that whenever there are more than a very few people, it is assured not everyone agrees, there are always exceptions.
Black
@Jaroslaw: That’s a real shame that your colleagues weren’t supportive of your gay pride/history initiative. Not only does that illustrate their sheer ignorance and a lack of willing to learn about another group of people, it is also, as you mentioned before, both sad and ironic that one group with an oppressed background is being oppressive to another. Their comments about being gay is a choice also stems from ignorance and is simply wrong. Their position, however, is not what I was referring to when I asked if you can see how some people might get offended when people try to compare the black struggle for civil rights to the gay rights movement.
Please hear me out and read the following carefully because I have a sneaky suspicion it’s a point we–and many others–can probably agree on. The nature of the black freedom struggle was very different than that of the contemporary gay rights movement. It was very violent with assassinations, bombings of homes/schools/churches, peaceful protesters being attacked with fire-hoses, patrons being spit on and harassed by other customers, etc. Is there violence towards gays today? Absolutely. However, the nature of the fight for gays rights and “black rights” (because it wasn’t just about blacks) were very different, given the extreme and tumultuous character of the latter.
Additionally, gays today, during the pinnacle of the modern gay rights movement, vote freely in elections, serve as councilmen, lead cities as mayors, and even represent their districts in Washington. Now, this is not say that there weren’t any blacks serving in public office during the Civil Rights movement, but considering there were very few and the disenfranchisement of black voters was as severe as it was, there is also a great discrepancy in the political power of blacks during the Civil Rights movement and that of gays today during the gay rights movement.
But the themes of the two movements are very similar. Both call for equal rights, equal treatment, and equal protection under the law. Both seek to end discrimination, violence, and bigotry. Both call for increased social and political representation. So yes, in terms of their goals, the two are very similar–and similar to those of other social movements.
So to answer your question, I think some people are offended by the comparison because the nature of the two are very different. But when drawing the parallel, I think many are in fact trying to point out my last point which is that the goals are both are very similar. So like I said before, I am not one of those people who gets offended when I hear the comparison made because I know what people are trying to say when they do so(or at least I think I do), but others may not. So it for this reason that I think some people may get offended when they hear the two compared. But as I mentioned earlier, whatever your co-workers say is their prerogative but utterly offensive and ignorant.
Jaroslaw
Dear Black – I’ve read enough to know “who suffered more” is never a game that can be won, so I’m going to quit here. On the surface, yes, is certainly would seem Blacks in America suffered more than Gays. Their struggle came at a time when there were cameras and television although they were civil rights riots before the 50’s and 60’s as well. In other words it was documented. Since Gay was not even spoken of prior to very recent times, therefore our history in America was not recorded….so I have to say I don’t know. I will say this – I never said they were the same or equal. I said there were parallels. However, don’t you find it interesting that at this juncture, most of the people who were or are “highly” offended never had to participate in those struggles? I get more grief from my co-workers in their 30’s, 40’s and 50’s than the older women (and some men) who actually were there!
Jaroslaw
And if memory serves, didn’t Bayard Rustin have a pretty important role in the 60’s but of course, his Gayness is almost never acknowledged…..
Black
@Jaroslaw: Alright, a few things. I was not trying to engage in a game of misery poker. My point is not that one group suffered more than another, but rather that the two are different in their nature.
As for the other points, I would really like to respond but I won’t. I feel as though we are ‘arguing’ for the sake of arguing. Disagreeing isn’t at all bad, but I feel that anything I say, you will find something to take issue with. That’s not to say I haven’t disagreed with you…I have done so plenty throughout this ‘debate’! But I also feel that I have been making an effort to acknowledge and emphasis areas where we agree. Perhaps I did a poor job at it, but in my last post I was really trying to simply (though in a length way) answer a question/clarify a point you had asked me to elaborate on as well as say “I agree with you!”.
This has been engaging but is also becoming very unproductive (though I guess I shouldn’t expect a great deal of productivity to arise from a Queerty page about ridiculously attractive people in a YouTube video :p). We have covered a lot of ground throughout this discussion and have raised many important issues, but we have also drifted pretty far from the initial focus which was the under-representation of people of color (not black by the way) in queer media. Given the way we’ve engaged in this conversation, it could honestly go on forever.
Please don’t take anything I’ve said personally–I think this is all just the nature of having a complex, drawn out, discussion via a discussion forum. It has been a very intriguing and thought-provoking conversation and I really do appreciate your constructive and intelligent commentary. You’ve forced me to challenge some of my points of view, and hopefully I’ve done the same for you. So thank you for a very stimulating discussion.
But with all of that, I respectfully withdraw from this conversation.
Jaroslaw
Dear Black – I never said that you were playing a game of misery poker. I didn’t think I had to say the obvious that church burnings, police dogs, water hoses and separate bathrooms/schools were different from the Gay struggle. And I fail in communicating too, because the “who suffered more” is generally where it goes when my (Black) co-workers say there is no comparison. I have a hunch we probably agree a lot more than we disagree, it is difficult to type as fast as one thinks and when I stop to correct a spelling or something, I lose my train of thought. And typing, even though I’m pretty fast, it isn’t near as fast as talking.
If you want to re-enter the discussion for just one more moment – I know you said the nature of the movements is “different” in your last paragraph on #43, but do you really think that by itself is a reason to get vehemently offended? Difference is I drive a Jeep and you drive a Ford Explorer. Difference is I have long hair and you have short hair. Not the same thing of course, but you get the idea.
I will offer an answer – it is not the only answer, or maybe not even the primary answer, but my guess would be the problem Gays have with everything – Gay sex is icky to straight people and they can’t get past that. Maybe that is the primary answer. Anyway, if that is all someone can think of when they hear “Gay” they certainly aren’t going to go further and ponder the person’s humanity, feelings, or equal rights. Don’t know if this next point is a corollary of or a different point entirely, but I think there is a huge helping of superiority going on. THEY are “NORMAL”, Gays are the oddballs “asking” for trouble.
Very sorry if you got the feeling that we were arguing for arguing’s sake. I didn’t. I think it is a bit of a leap to say “anything” you say I take issue with. I’ve asked other posters here why they didn’t say this or that about something I’ve posted, and the answer I get is “If I agree with it, I don’t say anything.”
So, I’m sorry if I didn’t agree with you more, when I did. But I guess it is hard to know how to answer. Were all or most Blacks discriminated against until the 1960’s civil rights movement? I didn’t think so, I thought that is why so many of them moved North. When I was working with the Colored Women’s Clubs (yes that is the name) I was in my early 20’s and these women were 60, 70, 80. They referenced discrimination in Detroit back in the 1920’s, and 30’s, but things were pretty good after that generally. All these people had jobs or husbands with jobs in the plants, owned their own homes, owned a car, etc. Of course, this is different from the sharecropper story in the South where the worker never made enough money to get out from under the owner of the land. So, the question is still how many had it worse? How many had it better? I don’t know. I did read an article in US News a few years ago that talked about a secret society of weatlhy Black people that had debutante balls and all sorts of things. Of course, I’m not suggesting there were near as many of them as there were White millioinaires, but it was quite intriguing just the same. By the style of the clothes and the black & white photos, though, it had to be quite a while back, just the same.
Black
I tried to fight it, but I had a feeling I would somehow get pulled back into this haha! But I’m going to do rapid fire response…
1) When you say, “I’ve read enough to know ‘who suffered more’ is never a game that can be won, so I’m going to quit here. On the surface, yes, is certainly would seem Blacks in America suffered more than Gays,” sounds to me like you’re suggesting (remember that word? :P) that I am playing the ‘who suffered more game’ or misery poker. Perhaps that was not your intent but you suggested it…
2) No, I personally do not think it is a reason to get ‘vehemently offended,’ and, as I’ve made clear several times now, I am not one of those people who is offended by such. I was just offering my own personal opinion on why some others may be offended. Because I am not one of those people who is offended by the comparison, I cannot defend this line of thought as passionately as you would like me to. When I posed the question in the first place, it was meant to be like a “try to see if you can look at it from their perspective” not “they’re absolutely right, do you see why?” Bottom line, I was trying to practice empathy.
3) I’m having trouble following your 3rd paragraph and fitting the last paragraph into the context of this conversation.
4) I guess I said it seems like we’re arguing for the sake of arguing because it as we’ve both pointed out, broadly we agree. It seems like many of our disagreements are technical or based on misunderstandings and therefore shifting the conversation’s focus making it endless.
5) Also I didn’t mean you take issue with anything and everything, but again something technical always sticks out that keeps propelling this conversation in a different direction. For example, look at my first (substantive) post in this thread (#30) and your last one. How did we get to this point?! LOL
Black
@Black: by the way, in case you’re interested, there is a much more active debate about whether having a racial preference is racist in another page’s thread (http://www.queerty.com/now-theres-a-place-to-publicly-humiliate-grindr-douchebags-20110719/). Not exactly what we’ve been talking about, but you might find it worth checking out if you haven’t seen it already! 🙂
Jaroslaw
1. Okay, I already admitted I communicated poorly and you are right that I suggested we were playing a game of who suffered more. That was not my intent to suggest you were playing misery poker.
2. & 3. Yes, you made it clear that you are not offended. I didn’t miss that. But you also asked me “can I understand why some do get offended?” At first I said no I don’t, but then I offered a possible answer in my paragraph 3. But can I see if “from their point of view?” I guess I can’t. (For the reason(s) I’ve already outlined above.)
4. Not sure what to say here. Let’s chalk it up to difficulties in communicating electronically. Although verbal is sometimes just as bad. I think I’m being very articulate, using many examples and the listener seizes on some point that misses the larger description. Not usually, though, at least I like to think I can communicate!
5. Well with a topic as broad as ‘race’ – I don’t think there was ever a real possibility we would have been able to confine it just “racism in the Gay community.”
Yes, you’ve challenged me and at the same time, I’m not sure what to do about it. Some things are hard to express and each of us can only explain things through our own life experiences. I only hope that I’m at least making a sincere effort to be objective and in turn listening and evaluating points of view that differ from my own. Thanks.
Jaroslaw
How did I miss #49? I’m sure that wasn’ there when I answered…….or maybe it popped up while I was typing 50? I don’t know. I couldn’t force myself to read it all. I don’t know what to say. Ok, I do. A little. If White guys only like White guys and Blacks and Asians etc. only like their own, then there must be a reason beyond ‘personal preference’ because I have seen GORGEOUS men in every single race.