In a wide-ranging interview, her first since announcing her candidacy for Governor of California, former eBay exec and Prop. 8 backer Meg Whitman explained her gay rights stance– or lack thereof. She called her decision to support the gay marriage ban a “matter of personal conscience and my faith”, but she’s unlikely to please conservative Californians either as she says she supports civil unions and gay adoption.
The L.A. Times describes Whitman’s behavior in the interview as:
“The first-time Republican candidate’s demeanor vacillated between that of a confident, take-charge chief executive officer delivering a PowerPoint presentation to that of an ill-at-ease novice who has studied stacks of policy binders, but has yet to master the art of political maneuvering.”
The whole interview is worth a read, if only because it’s clear Whitman has not thought about many of the major issues affecting Californians and while she hasn’t said anything like, “I can see the Bay Bridge from my window!”, Whitman’s first foray into politics is steeped in naivete. Here are some of the best bits:
“I don’t know the answer to that question,” Whitman responded when asked her stand on school vouchers, a perennial issue of importance to the conservatives who dominate her party’s primary…
At the same time, however, Whitman said Tuesday that schools, hospitals and law enforcement agencies should be required to report undocumented immigrants to federal authorities. She later backtracked on schools, saying, “I want to think about that a little bit….
As an “extraordinarily busy” mother and traveling executive, she said, she “didn’t vote as often as I should, and it’s something I regret. And no good excuses for it. Wish I had. Should have”…
She said voters should repeal ballot measures that dedicated money solely to mental health and tobacco-related healthcare programs so that revenue could be diverted elsewhere.
She offered no specifics on programs she would cut.
alan brickman
I love the fact that women have stepped up to become the biggest haters of equal rights for gays…especiially since when they talking about it..they ‘re usually thinking about the gay male rights part of it mostly. ‘Man hating” comes in many disguises…..
ggreen
Meg “big gums” Whitman. A bigger joke than Governor Arnold but she still thinks she can win because she has boatloads of money (and lots bad business experience). The California Republican party is desperate and will take anyone that they feel can win no matter if they are qualified. After years of obstructing any real progress in California Republicans are about to become extinct. The Democrats are marginally better with their political money machine. I want a candidate that vows to repeal Prop 13 and tax the shit out of any one that owns a home in California worth $1,000,000 or more. Millionaires don’t need tax breaks. And double tax people with more than 2 cars.
Larry
It doesn’t matter if she’s a moron. “Values voters” will go for her as eagerly as they did for Sarah Palin because she shares their religious fervor and disdain for icky homos.
Gianpiero
It is usually we Democrats who have the unforgivably lackluster gubernatorial candidates in California (Phil Angelides anyone? Cruz Bustamante? Gray Davis?). This time, with Newsom, Villaraigosa, Brown and Feinstein as possibilities on the Democratic side, it’s the Republicans–with no action movie hero to save them–who will have the serious charisma problem. Fine with me.
getreal
I think calling someone who supports civil unions and gay adoption a homophobe is a bit of a misnomer. Civil unions have always felt like 2nd class citizenship for some Americans and 1st class rights for others so I’m against them but her acceptance of them will make some label her as too liberal. This woman is likely going to be as distasteful to conservative republicans as she is to equality minded folks. Thanks for the heads up Queerty because of her background she will not be getting this Californian’s vote.
ggreen
She called her decision to support the gay marriage ban a “matter of personal conscience and my faith”.
Deciding not to marry a same sex partner herself would be a matter of personal conscience and faith. Financially supporting and publicly advocating laws denying the civil rights of others is not a matter of personal conscience and faith.
Darth Paul
@alan brickman: Yes, lesbians are routinely overlooked despite being 75% of our muscle.
(Yeah, I went there.)
DaveO
I wish we could get to the point where we would stop calling people who support us on 80% but oppose us on marriage “homophobes”. THere are many people like her who we might be able to reach, but calling them names does little to change minds.
Flex
Let’s hang this religious bitch! Let’s treat her to her own brand of poison, pass amendments banning prop 8 supporters from marriage in California!
WeTheSheeple
I think it’s great. Guarantees a win for the Democrats. Go Meg, ya big old lezzie
alek
slightly OT: Is she in prison in this picture? Or one of our dilapidated Cali schools? Yikes.
Leland Frances
FUCK YOU, DaveO! And not in the good way. You’re apparently one of those childish fools following the witless, ballless preaching of Aimless Amy Join the Impacted Bowels. Is she actually a plant by the Antigay Industry? She’s succeeded in distracting all that post Prop H8TE rage into candlelit pussy parties. What IS she doing with all your BALLS?
Let’s not call names! Let’s not DEMAND respect [did you NOT see “Milk”?] and equality and to be left alone to live our lives. That worked really well for blacks didn’t it….all the way to Jim Crow laws and lynching trees. Worked really well for Jews, too….all the way to the gas chambers.
The IL-logical extension of what you’re saying is that fag bashers shouldn’t be punished as long as they only hospitalize but not kill us.
We’ve played nice for half a century and how far has it gotten us? One of the reasons we keep losing is that we fail to convey to the actual “moveable middle” …and to family and straight friends…is how SERIOUS the issue of homophobia/hatred is.
I say, grow a new pair and TAKE NO PRISONERS! Even a broken clock is right twice a day and Bush was right when he said that you’re either our ally or our enemy, and Meg Whitman IS OUR ENEMY!
thinktank909
I strongly would suggest supporting Tom Campbell if he runs in the Republican Primary for the Decline to States who might want to jump in the Republican primary in June 2010.
Tom Campbell openly opposed Prop 8 and he’s a cool straight ally who is a former congressman, state senator. Who is now a business school professor right now.
kevin
I don’t think Whitman has quite the culture war cache of a Sarah Palin and as far as I know she’s not hanging around witch hunters.
But her views on immigration will stop her dead in her tracks here in California. To actually suggest that a hospital employee must report someone’s immigration status to a federal agent is simply appalling and will not float in this boat.
Whatever you think on the subject of illegal immigration, to make people afraid of accessing life-saving medical care for fear of being deported is just fucking cruel and evil. No doctor or nurse I know personally would obey this sort of trash.
petted
@DaveO: I suspect her stance on civil unions and adoption are a canard as it’d be a virtual death knell to her campaign to advocate for the repeal of civil unions which well over 50% of Californians, if you believe some of those who voted yes on 8, support. As far as gay adoption I suspect she’s using that as more of a smoke screen to avoid being pilloried in editorials but then again I wouldn’t trust her to hand me a newspaper let alone be governor.
Charles J. Mueller
With all the issues and problems confronting this nation at this time, I find it absolutely amazing that the focus and thrust of anyone seeking public office these days, is the promotion and dissemination of bigotry, hatred and homophobia…all trump cards in the dirty game of politics and backed by bible reinforced “personal conscience and faith” bullshit that has absolutely no place in a taxpayer supported public office.
Anyone who voted Yes on Prop 8 has to be a homophobe. They should not get a free pass because of their personal conscience and faith. That’s patently unfair and tilting the playing field in their favor. What other reason, besides the tired old clichés about strengthening the family and preserving traditional marriage which is a 5,000 year old tradition (read lie) have for voting away the civil-rights of a large minority?
Are these not the very same people who hawked-up the expression “Love the sinner; hate the sin” and will not even allow us into their private sanctuaries and personal clubs until we have renounced our true selves and prostrated ourselves before their closeted, pedophilic priests and their altars of human sacrifice?
And kudos to you, once again, Leland, who has the balls to tell it like it is. I get so sick and tired of these manby-pamby types who are always walking around with a white flag of surrender, tied to an olive branch, preaching to those of us who are out on the front lines trying to win freedoms for them, as well as ourselves, that we must be tolerant of and respectful of the very people who are doing everything in their power to destroy us. What the fuck is wrong with these people anyway? Are they too, plants of the Anti-Gay Industry?
Your parallels of the black struggle for civil-rights and the sad failure of the Jewish people to win their battle with the fascists with love, respect, tolerance and passive resistance is classic. Haven’t any of these olive branch-wavers every picked up a history book, for crying out loud?
Some seventy years later since the onset of WWII, has everyone forgotten the name of Neville Chamberlain, another advocate whose mantra was “Peace with honor in our time” and who erroneously thought he could negotiate and bargain with a tyrant named Herr Hitler?
Oh…and should we have sent a thank you note to Hiro Hito, asking for a tolerant, respectful chatauqua over the sinking of the Arizona and a few other of our battle ships at Pearl Harbor?
Fools never learn, do they? They live in a rose-colored world of sky-daddies, sky-pixies, angel dust and peace loving people who are all intrinsically good at heart.
We just need to appeal to their inborn love of humanity, love of God and their personal conscience and that will bring peace to the entire planet.
Oh. Silly me. I forgot. That can only happen after “the honosexual problem” has been dealt with, since it no longer politically correct to fuck with the Jews or the blacks anymore.
N’est-ce pas?
getreal
@ggreen: Co-sign
DaveO
Do you really think being gay in 2009 is no different than being gay in 1959?
As for the moveable middle, we fail to win because we insist on telling them that unless they support us 100%, we think they are evil.
Charles J. Mueller
I join with Leland Frances in saying FUCK YOU, DaveO. And not in a good way either.
“we fail to win because we insist on telling them that unless they support us 100%, we think they are evil.”
That’s the spirit, Davey Boy. Internalize the bigotry and hatred and blame it on ourselves. Because of our “attitude”, we deserved being stripped of our rights in California, Arizona, Arkansas and Florida on November 4th. Nothing like justifying evil deeds in the name of God, Family and Tradional Marriage. Works like a charm every time.
Have a good supply of olive branches and white rags, do you?
Oh, and don’t forget to wear the hair-shirt and bring the whip along, for good measure. These people are very impressed by humility and sincerity as look to atone with the Church and beg for forgiveness at their feet.
“I wish we could get to the point where we would stop calling people who support us on 80% but oppose us on marriage “homophobes”.
What other name would you suggest for people who wish to marginalize us and force us to remain separate but equal, second-class citizens?
“There are many people like her who we might be able to reach, but calling them names does little to change minds.”
I have my hair shirt on and am flagellating myself for ever having had the audacity for calling Prick, er…Rick Warren a homophobe, while he was comparing us to people who practice incest, pedophilia and bestiality. Care to join me?
Mea culpa. HFR of me!
Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned.
Meh!
Mark
I voted yes on 8
I believe that marriage should be between one man and one woman
I believe this because I feel that children need a mother and a father
As for Meg Whitman I will hear her out before making a decision on whether she would be a good leader or not.
Pierre
Beyond being a discriminating bigot, she and her chosen successor at ebay, former Bain Consulting firm colleage John Donahoe, are destroying ebay by treating all sellers as criminals and tacitly supporting ebay buyer fraud on an unimaginable scale.
Hopefully every voting Californian will talk with at least one ebay seller before they vote and learn how Whitman and Donahoe have destroyed numerous small business ebay sellers.
Bain Consulting also gave us Mitt “No Gay No Way” Romney.
Nice crowd.
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark: Sooooo…why are you even here? Closet much?
@Charles J. Mueller: Hear hear, good sir.
Charles J. Mueller
@Mark:
And I am equally certain that you would have waited to hear Herr Hitler out too, before he elected to ship your queer ass off to Auschwitz to perform horrible medical experiments on.
Victim much?
Mark
@Charles J. Mueller:
I saw the article about Meg Whitman and it brought me to this site.I’m always googling to see whats going on with prop 8.I hope you appreciate my right to say how I feel as much as I respect your right.
getreal
@Mark: If you feel that marriage should be between a man and a woman then don’t marry someone of the same sex. I believe children deserve 2 parents and everyone should have the same rights that is why I’m in favor of marriage equality. It is not my place or yours to decide who is allowed to fall in love and raise a family together. I do believe you have a right to your opinion but I do not feel you have the right to push your agenda on other American citizens and attack families. For the record I am a christian so please don’t rationalize your bigotry using religion. Real christians love their brothers as they love themselves.I pray that God removes the hate from your heart and I will help organize and defeat you and that unjust proposition.
getreal
@Flex: Well hold on just because someone is religious doesn’t make them a bitch but I’ll do you one better I don’t think ANYONE should be allowed to marry until Prop 8 is reversed. We are either all equal as Americans or we aren’t.
Charles J. Mueller
@Mark:
“I hope you appreciate my right to say how I feel as much as I respect your right.”
That I do, Matey. That I do.
And that having been said, then you should have no problem with my reply to your post.
You said what you needed to say and I said what I needed to say.
Both of our rights have been met and freedom of speech has been served. It’s the American, Democratic way.
Any other problem here that I am unaware of? 😉
Charles J. Mueller
@getreal:
Hear. Hear. Getreal.
I support both of your comments 100%. On those issues, we see eye to eye and I will work as fiercely as you to assure that we are all equal as Americans.
Only then, will I be able to die happy.
Mark
@getreal:
I’m not opposed to two people being in love. I believe the word Marriage is a definiton between a man and a woman. That’s it.Marriage is meant to be a union between one man and one woman.Procreation is a part of marriage which can only happen between a man and a woman . Goodnight.
Charles J. Mueller
Maybe it’s just my twisted, intolerable view of fanatical religious types, but the more I study that pic of Meg with the “I love Jesus” glazed eyes look, the more it looks like she was trying to strike a Mary Magdalene like pose with the light of God illuminating her countenance.
All that’s missing, is a proper Mantilla and the halo! lol
Charles J. Mueller
@Mark:
And who appointed you the Grand Poobah of this particular thread?
And…who really gives a good shit what the fuck you believe on a gay site that is dedicated to the gaining of the equal rights and treatment that all tax-paying American Citizens should be entitled to and had as their birth right?
With slightly over 6 billion human being on the planet, I sincerely doubt that procreation needs be protected like, you know, the Pope’s suggestion that marriage needs to be protected like the rain forests. The human species is not exactly on the edge of extinction, you know?
Now climb back onto the ass you trotted in here on and truck on off to California or Utah where there are lots of asshats just like you and who believe just as you do. You’ll be in good company and we will survive very nicely without your bigoted and hateful, Church-induced brain-washing.
And a not so good night to you, Sir.
getreal
@Mark: Hundreds of thousands of people in gay families would argue with you Mark. So are you saying a man and a woman who choose not to procreate don’t deserve to marry? I would bet you aren’t legislating couples who don’t want children out of their marriage rights. Mark you either believe all Americans are equal or you don’t. If you do you can’t support special rights for some and not be a hypocrite. I think it is great that you came to this site please come again read the articles see all the diversity, humor, trials, and tribulations that your fellow Americans have to offer. You have a right to your beliefs you don’t have a right to rob people of marriage which is not only a sacrament but a civil right.
getreal
@Charles J. Mueller: Some ignorant people are well meaning and not evil just misguided. I don’t think insulting them reaches them. In my opinion pointing out the inhumanity and the inherent wrongness of anti-marriage laws is much more persuasive than calling people (asshats, even if they are asshats). I respect your passion Charles I just think when dealing with the bigoted it needs to tempered with a bit of patience. It is hard though.
vernonvanderbilt
You know, I’m all one for cordial discourse and the like, but there’s just something that really irks me about random homophobes coming over to our side of the fence (where the grass is so much greener) for their little surf-by shootings.
See, I like polite and respectful discussion as much as anyone else, but when someone enters said discussion and immediately posits themselves as my enemy…well, it doesn’t exactly inspire me to look favourably upon them, if you know what I mean. Last time I checked, the site is called Queerty. I’d think that would give even a moderately gifted goat the sense that taking an anti-GLBT view here means you’ll be severely outnumbered.
So why bother? After all, it would seem to me that taking the time to make an asinine comment like Mark’s would be pretty much wasteful. It’s not as if it was a particularly eloquent statement to begin with, certainly not persuasive in any way. So he wasn’t trying to convince us, was he?
What could he have been trying to accomplish then? Hmmm…let’s see. Was he trying to get us riled up? Raise our blood pressure a few points? A believable enough proposition, considering the way those alleged “people” tend to do things.
Maybe he was honestly trying to offer a dissenting view? In the interests of fairness? No, that can’t be it, because his view and the fair view are mutually exclusive concepts anyway.
Oooh…perhaps he was trying to convince himself. I mean, “people” who subscribe to his outlook on the issue…the more lucid ones are bound to question it at some point in their useless existences. Maybe he needed to say it in front of the opposition to feel like his opinion really matters.
But I’m inclined to think we’ve got one of those self-loathing Haggard Lites on our hands, a fearful fag, a horrified homo, a quaking queer. In short, one of those worthless individuals who flagellate themselves by assisting in the oppression of those of us who are content with ourselves.
I’m almost kidding.
Truth be told, he’s probably not family, even in the black sheep sense…and that’s a sigh of relief I’d be happy to breathe. But he is useless, and he is subhuman. So is anyone who opposes us on this issue. I see no reason to treat them with compassion, fairness, or cordiality. Honestly, I think the world would be better off for everyone if we had ourselves a big ol’ rapture and those troglodytes got whisked off to whatever heaven they believe in this century.
Don’t get huffy, religious peeps…I’m talking about the homophobes, not you.
Besides, it’s kind of a nice idea, isn’t it? A world without ‘phobes. I mean, since not a single one of them is worth anything, we may as well free up the space. If they leave their bodies behind (I’m still unclear what the bibbity-bap-bap-bible has to say about that) we could use them as fertilizer. Humans are, thankfully, biodegradable.
And it would help with population control, more so than a lot of us are already doing. These people tend to be the ones who have entirely too many children anyway. I mean, even one is too many if you intend to raise them to be like that, but you know what I mean. Hell, if the Baptists alone disappeared that would cut population growth by at least 14%, right? Every little bit helps.
Okay, I’m done.
For now.
Cee
I think she is an idiot. I kind of stopped caring though, when they put Arnold in office.
GENE
@Mark:
Gay people shouldn’t be required to marry those who they can not love, but should be allowed to marry who they can.
Marriage is not about children. There are many straight couples that don’t have children, don’t want them or can’t have them. The government does not deny them a marriage certificate simply because of that fact. Having children is not a requirement for marriage, so procreation should not be used as a weapon against gay people. In fact, gay people can indeed raise kids. There were the hundreds of articles about the people being married in San Francisco and who stand there getting betrothed while either holding or standing next to their kids. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual.
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b109/2/339
getreal
The only reason for someone who voted yes on Prop 8 to be on Queerty is to get a better perspective or to engage us on the issue. This was an opportunity to educate an ignorant person jumping on him and insulting him only reenforced his negative ideas about LGBT people. There are some people out there who voted yes and are now feeling uneasiness about their bad choice if we don’t engage and offer sound facts about WHY their choice was wrong they will make the same one next time.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal: You cannot educate the willfully ignorant. There was not a single word in any of his comments that would lead a reasonable, rational person to think he wanted to do anything other than spout off some hateful drivel and mosey on.
There’s a right way and a wrong way to seek dialogue on any subject. If that is what he wanted (and I don’t believe that for one second) then he chose the wrong way. Period.
People like that are why abortion needs to remain legal.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: I disagree he would not have engaged if he did even subconsciously want to understand our point of view. If we decide that every person who voted yes is a lost cause we are shooting ourselves. I personally have had dialogues with people who post 8 passing have changed their view. However angry we are (and when I read his comments I was angry) we won’t reach people by attacking them and there are people we are going to have to reach out to. We are right we don’t have to use intimidation tactics we can plainly state our case and trump any argument they send our way. People are changing their minds little by little so let’s give them facts not anger when they reach out.
getreal
@getreal: shooting ourselves in the foot i mean
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: Oh and if there was a rapture the homophobes would stay right. You can’t go if you hate in your heart. Maybe someone should invent a bumper sticker vote yes on gay marriage you don’t want to be “left behind” ha-ha
(left behind is a popular series of books about people left behind after the rapture)
getreal
Hello? Paging Charles J. Mueller.Paging Charles J. Mueller. I’m very interested to read your perspective.
Mark
I did not come on here to harass or say unkind words to all of you.I honestly wanted to read about meg and it happened to pop up from google so i went there.some on here think they know exactly what i think and i want them to know they are incorrect. I love all people and Im not scared of those who have different beliefs then my own. I’m not a religious zealot but I try to live my life in an honorable and fair way.I honestly appreciate reading your comments
but wish some would go light on the language.I may not be elequont
as was stated but my mind is always open and I’m a good listener.Thankyou for your time . Take care. Mark
getreal
@Mark: Mark I think it is a blessing that you came here. All I ask is that you engage people and get their perspective. Some people will treat you with anger you voted to take away their rights. I’m sure you would take issue with someone who for instance decided to that you did not deserve the same rights that they did and successfully took your rights away. Share your reasoning and listen to ours. If your mind was completely closed you would not be here. As a fair person explain your point of view and try to see ours. If you really love people look at this issue with an open mind and an open heart. I can only speak from myself and my perspective I personally think that all people are equal they should have the same rights, opportunities, and protections under the law as fair person how can you not agree? How does what people you will never meet and have never hurt you and WILL never hurt call their love affect your life in any way? It doesn’t you don’t have to agree but don’t take right away from people.
getreal
@Mark: Mark I think it is a blessing that you came here. All I ask is that you engage people and get their perspective. Some people will treat you with anger you voted to take away their rights. I’m sure you would take issue with someone who for instance decided to that you did not deserve the same rights that they did and successfully took your rights away. Share your reasoning and listen to ours. If your mind was completely closed you would not be here. As a fair person explain your point of view and try to see ours. And by ours I mean people who support equality everyone here is not gay we are people who support equality and equal right for gay people. If you really love people look at this issue with an open mind and an open heart. I can only speak for myself and my perspective I personally think that all people are equal they should have the same rights, opportunities, and protections under the law as fair person how can you not agree? How does what people you will never meet and have never hurt you and WILL never hurt you call their love affect your life in any way? It doesn’t, you don’t have to agree but don’t take right away from people it just not right.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal: Okay, so I treaded into “Bill Perdue” territory with the rapture comment…at that point I was just being bitchy for my own amusement, so I apologize for the unnecessary generalization. In case you couldn’t tell by the epic I posted, when I get started sometimes I have trouble switching it off again.
However, having been on the internet for many, many years (not as long as some, I’d wager, but longer than many) I know a shit-stirrer when I see one. The mysterious “Mark” is a shit-stirrer. If he’d wanted dialogue, he would have phrased things differently.
For those of you who get bored by linguistic analysis, keep scrolling until you see the “E( o )3”
Ready? Okay.
“I voted yes on 8”
– Okay, fair enough. Simple stating of fact.
“I believe that marriage should be between one man and one woman”
– Now we’re getting a little confrontational, but still nothing too nasty. A little out of place for this site, but whatever.
“I believe this because I feel that children need a mother and a father”
– Cool, a reason. Oh, wait…it’s a bad one. No elaboration, and the repeated use of “I believe” is meant to imply that it means he’s right and we’re wrong. People only use “believe” when they want their argument to be unassailable. If someone disagrees, they have a built in response: “Well, that’s what I believe.” It’s the same thing as saying “Because I said so.”
On to the next post then…
“I saw the article about Meg Whitman and it brought me to this site.”
– So now he gets around to explaining why he’s interloping. Good.
“I’m always googling to see whats going on with prop 8.”
– Always? Seriously? Why? Because the homophobes know that they’re going to lose this war, and they want to keep up to date on how quickly they’re failing? It sounds like logical enough reasoning on his part, but I still question the necessity of posting a ludicrous and hateful opinion like that on a site that openly belongs to and caters to the opposition. Unless, perhaps…you’re a shit-stirrer.
“I hope you appreciate my right to say how I feel as much as I respect your right.”
– And boom! Top it off with the cherry of faux “respect.” The only purpose a phrase such as that serves, especially at the end of a post, is to try to deflect any criticism leveled against you as disrespectful and/or inhibiting your freedom of speech. Cowardice.
His last post:
“I’m not opposed to two people being in love.”
– A strategically placed platitude designed to lull us into a false sense of security. “I have no problem with you personally, you know.” Maybe he’s craftier than I credit.
“I believe the word Marriage is a definiton between a man and a woman.”
– Oops. Maybe not. He’s starting to get a wee bit flustered, as his grammar and spelling are starting to worsen. Not to mention he brings up that pesky “I believe” again, trying to crown himself as the authority on the issue.
“That’s it.”
– Gee, that really makes me believe that he thinks the issue is open to discussion. You too?
“Marriage is meant to be a union between one man and one woman.”
– Now he drops the “I believe,” another sign that he’s getting exasperated with being opposed on a site which, AGAIN, is by and for the OPPOSITION. Instead of framing it as an opinion, he frames it as a fact, not open to debate.
“Procreation is a part of marriage which can only happen between a man and a woman .”
– Okay, so he equates marriage with procreation. No big. Lots of idiots do. But again, he’s not even trying to call it an opinion anymore. He states it as if it’s a fact, knowing full well that there are plenty of heteros who don’t breed. See how certainty can lead one to be classified as a bigot?
“Goodnight.”
– And there’s the topper, kids. There’s his entire structure of argument, out in the open. Irrational statement, irrational statement, stupid statement, irrational statement, moronic statement, don’t explain, run away. Need I go on? Or have we finally decided that he wasn’t looking for a friendly discussion?
Here’s an apologetic assimilationist appeaser holding his asshole open so he can be fucked raw and bloody by the status quo.
E( o )3
There’s a big difference between intimidating someone and giving them a well-deserved piece of your mind. In cases where the enemy is truly trying to engage in open, honest, and civil conversation, then sure, treat them fairly and engage them on an intellectual level. However, if someone wants to come at you with half-cooked “I believe therefore I am right” b.s. and then run away without once trying to offer a rational explanation for why they think you deserve to be discriminated against, then you are fully entitled to mock, belittle, and humiliate them, and you should do so without mercy.
See, the logical element is important, very important, and it should be elucidated whenever possible. But what some of my GLBT brothers and sisters neglect is the emotional component to this battle. Are you angry? If you say you’re not, you’re a liar. Anger is a rational response when you’re told you don’t deserve to be treated fairly and equally compared to the rest of the population. These people don’t just need to hear arguments backing up our position, because most of them are too stupid to understand them. They also need to experience our anger, our rage, even our wrath. Emotions make us human. If we neglect them, we become proverb-spouting automatons, like the enemy.
That is why I have repeatedly said, openly, publicly, for anyone and everyone to hear, that if you vote to keep me a second class citizen, then not only will I never consider you a friend, I will be very open in my hatred for you. Turning the other cheek gets us nowhere. It only makes us look even weaker than we already appear to these glorified lemmings.
Prop 8 was an attack. It was not mere legislation, and it was never intended as such. It was another IED on the roadside leading to equality, planted by single-minded primitives who are losing a cultural war. They are small-minded cowards, plain and simple, as evidenced by the inane blather slathered on this thread by the likes of Mark the Bigot. Do not do him or his kind any favours by insinuating that there was any potential for rational discussion this time. He’s not the type. That’s obvious.
Yeah, I hate. I hate whatever and whoever opposes true love, true equality. I think it’s high time more of us learned to tap into that hate, because we all carry it, but most of us seem to be afraid of it. To deny that type of hatred is to deny your own humanity, because if you love your life and your humanity, you should hate those who would destroy it.
Charles J. Mueller
@vernonvanderbilt:
Your thesis is a signature piece. Would that I could aspire to your level of eloquence.
their little surf-by shootings.
fearful fag.
horrified homo.
a quaking queer.
Every little bit helps.
You do have a way with words, Sir. Of that, there can be no doubt. Your double-edged comments simultaneously reflect both keen humor and gravity. I very much enjoy your style of writing and anticipate reading many more witty, informed and intelligent dissertations from you.
My take on Mark was exactly the same as yours. Like, what’s his purpose for being here? What are his credentials and what does he have to bring to the table that we can discuss cordially, politely and respectfully?
For me, my experience of Mark recorded the same negative vibrations that you also picked up. Each one of his posts were snarky, defiant and I felt, very disrespectful. Is he even “family”, one has to wonder? From the tone of his comments, one would believe not.
And now I would like to address myself to Getreal, who also posted several commentaries to me that I would like to respond to. I invite you to follow them there. Please free to comment on them if you’d like.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: If I went to anti-equality site my posts would be virtually the same except obviously I’m for equal rights. This exchange makes me think I should. To me it is a very simple issue. He did not use rude language even after he was verbally attacked he continued to post respectfully.. I think you had an opportunity what is the good of intellect if we let anger get in the way of using it to change people like Mark’s minds??? How can you ask someone to respect you if you are acting respectfully. I’m not attacking you I just think we are going to reach people with our minds not our anger. Everyone can’t be reach but a lot of people can. I read a statistic recently that in 1950 only 19% of whites were against segregation, some minds (not all) are capable of change.
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark:
“I love all people and Im not scared of those who have different beliefs then my own.”
Are we to believe that simply because you say it? If you loved all people, you wouldn’t choose to force them further into second class status and attempt to invalidate their love via legislation.
“I’m not a religious zealot but I try to live my life in an honorable and fair way.”
A lie. The honorable and fair thing would be to, I don’t know…NOT strip people of equal rights? That’s a pretty good start, in my opinion.
@getreal:
For what it’s worth, a decent attempt at reasoning with this creature. I’m willing to bet it won’t accomplish anything though.
Mark
@getreal: Getreal…I don’t believe in gay marriage because of my religious views and my belief in God.I truly believe that marriage is a sacred ordinance between one man and one woman.I also believe that sexual relations between two people of the same sex is unnatural.I do believe that two people of the same sex can be in love but because of my strong beliefs I want to obey God and keep the definition of marriage as I stated above.This is awkward to be on this site where I’m offending those who believe strongly the other way.I’m going to say goodbye and move on. Thanks for listening. Take care, Mark
getreal
I feel that he was misguided but someone can be misguided and not be evil. I was raised to look at bigoted people (I’m black) not as evil but as people who have an injury of the mind. Through my (relatively I’m in my late 20’s) short life I have in my dealings with bigots realized that they are rarely aware of the trouble and hurt they cause. I have also learned that reacting with anger never get the outcome that you want. All you get is an ever widening divide. You have to give people a chance to hear you and if they have a conscience and most people do they will be moved. That is why if you look at the stats from 20 years ago 15 years ago 10 years 5 years ago more and more people support gays rights all the time. It was not because LGBT people became verbally abuse it was because by just living good lives the average gay person change minds. Hating someone won’t change their minds. As a black person if someone calls me nigger I don’t hate them I pity them what does hating them solve? What I will do is not give them the satisfaction acting like the ugly stereotype that they want me to be. Nothing defuses a bigot faster than respect and calm indifference trust me I’m speaking from experience.
vernonvanderbilt
@Charles J. Mueller: Thank you kindly, sir. Flattery is always welcome. 🙂 I happen to enjoy many of your posts as well, so I accept your praise humbly and gratefully.
@getreal: I don’t believe I acted disrespectfully in the slightest. I believe I countered opinion with opinion. He thinks I deserve to be oppressed. I think he’s a subhuman. Doesn’t it all balance out?
Kidding aside, I have seen time and again how far intellectual reasoning gets you with these “people.” If you’d like equality to approach at a snail’s pace, then by all means, knock yourself out with the brain cells and the logic. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast, VAST majority of these “people” have no interest in the intellectual aspects of the issue. Hell, most of these people despise anything resembling “intellectualism” at all. It’s what they’re brainwashed to do.
You can be rude without calling people names or swearing. There was plenty of rudeness inherent in Mark’s posts. Just because he’s backpedaling now (pretending to, I should say, because I’m not convinced just yet) doesn’t change what has already been said.
As far as the segregation statistic…it took 200+ years to get 19%. Are you willing to wait that long? If not, then it’s high time you mixed a little venom into your sugar. Remember, the movement was kicked off by a riot, not a rousing round of “Kumbayah” around the campfire.
getreal
@Mark: No Mark you are not going to move on you have a responsibility as a believer to treat your fellow man as an equal. You will stay here and you will give people the respect to listen to their views. On the God question give me a minute.
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark: Since you’re moving on, I guess there’s no point in mentioning that we live in a secular society, and that there are no secular reasons to discriminate against us, therefore your position is not only unconstitutional, but inhuman. Oh well, you missed out on some tasty logic there.
Good riddance anyway.
@getreal: We’re probably around the same age from the sounds of it. (I’m 29, but do not intend to age past that because I’m vain.)
Misguided…I’ll go so far as to give you a maybe on that. But why is he misguided? Because of evil people. If someone is willing to believe the lies of evil entities, then that means, on some level, the same evil lurks within them. I have no respect or pity for anyone who thinks it’s acceptable to degrade me as a human being, especially in the voting booth.
But hey, if you want to play the wounded dove, returning brutality with gentle banter and a beatific smile, that’s your prerogative. Personally, I don’t see it being any more effective at changing hearts and minds than rightous anger. Honestly, they’re both probably pretty futile, but anything will be against these abominations. They’re not trained to think, they’re trained to obey. And they’re oh so good at it, aren’t they?
The entire basis of my position is that it should not matter to these mistakes of nature what (or who) we do in our own lives, so long as it has no negative effects on theirs. I have yet, in all my years of reading up on this issue, to hear a single logical, SECULAR argument against our right to equality. Living in a secular nation, secular arguments are the only ones that should hold water. If they have religious reasons to denigrate us as human beings…you know, whatever. Everyone’s entitled to be stupid. But when that stupidity starts infringing on my own life, I have a right to respond with as much anger as I can muster. Hatred serves as a defense of love.
getreal
@Mark: As far as the religious issue with homosexuality I find most “christians” who are against the rights of gays and lesbians are not taking the scripture into account. Have you ever eaten shellfish (shrimp, lobster,scallops etc.) I would bet 100 dollars you have, have you ever worn a cotton/polyester blend shirt or pair of pants (in this day in age it is virtually impossible that you haven’t) well in the bible these two venial (minor)sins were called an abomination as was homosexuality. In the bible homosexuality was briefly mentioned as a minor sin along with shrimp eating and wearing linen and rayon in the same outfit. This is the tenuous basis for so called homophobic “christians”. In the bible God said you are all made in my image. Why would God create 10% of his children gay if it was wrong? Why? He wouldn’t period. Jesus said many things but he never said homosexuality was wrong he did say vengence is mine meaning if someone is doing something wrong let me handle punishing them. The bible says marriage is a sacrament and responsibility why are you VOTING against a sacrament of God? Divorce is a MUCH bigger sin in the bible than the so called venial sin of homosexuality (I think that is bs some homophobe transcriber put in but I digress) so if you are concerned about sin and children being raised by a mother and a father why not go legislate against divorce many many more children are hurt by divorce and No children are hurt by seeing their gay parents get married. People who say they are against gay marriage based on religion there is vertually no scriptural basis to be against gay marriage but there is ample basis to be in favor of it. I think you need to take a hard look in the mirror and consider it may be your discomfort with gay people not your christian ideals that are the reason you voted yes on Prop 8.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: They is very little almost no religious basis for homophobia it is a smoke screen people hide behind to explain their discomfort with gay people. I’m not a weak person I’m a strong person I will never let a bigoted person cross my path without taking apart their argument brick by brick until the wall crumbles. You do yourself a disservice you are an intelligent, persuasive person and there people out there who would on encountering you and being schooled by you CHANGE THEIR MINDS. Even if you you feel he is beneath contempt you aren’t and your point of view needs to be inject into his consciousness.
getreal
We need to start address the LIE that the bible says homosexuality is EVIL. It doesn’t it is roughly in the neighborhood of a speeding ticket in the scheme of things.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal: A few miscellaneous items, if you’ll indulge me:
1. There are plenty of instances in which I have used my intellect to further a point, some successful, more not. What you need to understand is that most of these humanoids are pretty much immune to intellectual reasoning by virtue of their assorted indoctrinations. I can tell the different varieties of subhumans apart pretty easily, though, and I am well aware of which ones will be susceptible to a little mental massage and which ones deserve nothing other than mockery and contempt. Guess which side Mr. Mark falls on.
2. There is absolutely no use whatsoever in trying to argue with these cretins using their own, religious, terms. There are precious few religions that permit any sort of deviation from their standard model of morality, and even fewer who would encourage questioning of their fundamental “truths.” Anyone who approached the argument from a religious point of view has already outed themselves as an un-American bigot. It’s much more effective to point out that we live in a secular society, and then encourage them to come up with secular reasons that support their argument. There…are…none. No good ones, at least, and certainly none that can be backed up with honest statistics or verifiable facts. If you fill out your ballot by consulting a bible, then you are un-American, plain and simple.
3. My point of view did inject into his consciousness. I think he and his kind are useless, worthless, and an unholy blight on an otherwise lovely planet. I’m not going to dignify his pap by trying to intellectualize with him. That implies that I think there’s validity to his outdated, inhumane, and un-American point of view.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal:
“We need to start address the LIE that the bible says homosexuality is EVIL. It doesn’t it is roughly in the neighborhood of a speeding ticket in the scheme of things.”
It still says it’s bad then, right? Guess what…that means the bible is wrong or lying.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: I have changed the views of many christian on this issue using the bible it is the only way to really.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: So he knows you hate him. So you reenforced his views how does that help anyone? I’m not trying to to be rude. I respect your point of view (obviously) but I also respect the strength of your passion and intellect to make change. I know just in talking to people’s minds are changed. I watched a disturbing interview on youtube where an old man said I’m voting for the nigger he sounds smart(in a very deep southern accent). Tell me someone did not talk to that guy and open his mind ( a little). Almost every person is capable of change and someone who will hear you out while you make your point is a prime candidate. Maybe that sounds silly and naive but we will have to get over our bitterness and outreach a little outreach would have defeated Prop 8.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: No it means someone added in the arcane laws of when it was written. At the time there was no refrigeration so people died from shellfish contamination all of the “word” of the bible were laws from the time added in for flavor. Jesus never said homosexuality was wrong and I don’t think it is. It is a lie. I don’t mean to make this a religious discussion but when people use the bible to excuse bigotry I can shut that shit down.
ConservativeRepublican
@vernonvanderbilt:
Geez, tell us how you really feel.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal:
“I have changed the views of many christian on this issue using the bible it is the only way to really.”
Then obviously wherever you reside contains a fundamentally different breed of christian from my own region.
I know it’s an easy trap to fall into, looking at things from a christian-centric perspective. There are plenty of other religions out there that hate us as well, though, and a lot of their followers vote as well.
I’m not overly interested in getting into the religious part of the discussion, because we all know where that leads and, being a spiritual person myself, I’m not all that interested in arguing the unarguable. I happen to believe that the bible is little more than a few flakes of gold buried beneath a Mt. Everest-sized pile of (talking!) donkey dung. I also believe that when followers of most major religions consider the idea of the divine, it’s the equivalent of trying to admire a Van Gogh masterpiece by looking at a single brushstroke. There’s little point in arguing colour with the blind.
Trust me…I’m not the person anyone wants to argue religion with.
But hey, if your approach works in your case, more power to you. I hope you can change a million minds with your biblically based reasoning. Forgive me if I think it’s nothing but drops in the bucket.
I’ll stick to the secular side of the argument, because I believe it’s a better place to make some headway. You can’t argue belief, but you can argue fact.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: You don’t have to insult the bible to make your point and just because some christians are bigoted it is not right to hurt the feels of those of us who aren’t.
ConservativeRepublican
Oh, and before anyone asks, since I’m a new poster here (though I’ve lurked for quite some time), my username isn’t a joke. I’m a conservative republican, but I’m also supportive of gay rights.
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: Good as long as you are using your areas of expertise to try to spread the knowledge you have. There are so many ignorant people out their smart people almost have a moral obligation to try to educate them. Much respect
vernonvanderbilt
@ConservativeRepublican: Don’t encourage me. I like to type. 😛
@getreal: Look, when it comes to religious arguments, I am more than capable of shutting things down myself. I’ve probably read more of the bible than most christians I know. Know thy enemy and all that happy business, you know?
I just know that religion is one of the most difficult paths to take when making this particular argument, because most people who use religion as an excuse for their bigotry have no desire to have their minds changed. Sure, it probably works once in a while, but generally with people who probably don’t belong with an organized religion in the first place. I’m not saying it’s pointless, but it is generally wasted breath and energy. I’d prefer to belittle them and be done with it, saving myself for someone with the intellectual capacity and testicular fortitude to deal with being challenged.
getreal
@ConservativeRepublican: Good now spread the news to your republican compatriots! LOL
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: I’m confused. So you don’t waste your time trying to educating the ignorant you save it for the intelligent? We need to stop all this preaching to the choir business.
getreal
Does anyone know a conservative website where I can add my 2 cents?
vernonvanderbilt
@ConservativeRepublican: Well, I’m a fiscal moderate and a social revolutionary, for what it’s worth. I don’t particularly care much for modern Republicanism, but whatever floats your boat. It takes all kinds. Welcome to the land of the speaking.
vernonvanderbilt
@getreal: Correction: I do not waste my time on the willfully ignorant. To me, there’s a difference between someone who chooses to be ignorant because it’s easier, and someone who is “purely” ignorant by virtue of never having been in a position to learn about or understand contrary points of view. I believe there is no value in arguing with the former, and in fact, I wholly endorse treating them with utter derision and merciless ridicule. If you choose to be an idiot, then I will treat you like one.
However, the “purely” ignorant types are another can of worms. All you need to get to them is a candle, shed some light on the things they just haven’t seen up to that point. Minds cannot be forced open, but if new evidence comes to light, it’s hard not to change your mind.
You can’t change a mind that is made up and closed. You can change a mind that is enshrouded in the darkness of unknowing.
ConservativeRepublican
@vernonvanderbilt:
With respect, your approach doesn’t work for me at all. As a republican who believes in engaging anti-gays in conversation, I deal with religious people on a daily basis. Many become a lot more open-minded if they get to know a pro-gay activist that isn’t immediately rude to them. Sure, there are always those who won’t change their minds, but a lot of them soften considerably if treated politely. And I find that once they start to soften, they just keep becoming more and more supportive of gay rights over time. I can’t snap my fingers and make them turn into SSM supporters instantly but I can plant a seed that will grow and grow and eventually become a beautiful, gay-friendly person.
But hey, whatever works for you is cool.
petted
Mark pursued this thread over the course of 5-6 hours… its odd. While a number of his comments do bare the hallmarks of the fly by drones the fact that he maintained contact with the thread for this long is an exception to that sort. At the same time while I think it is clear that Mark is having doubts, I do not believe he is willing to face said doubts. I think what it may well boil down to for Mark as he is very emphatic about the religious argument against us yet not once do we see any reference to scripture of any sort it suggests an underlying crisis of faith, i.e. existence of god, as evidenced by his immediate withdrawal when it was clear Getreal was going to engage him on his position. The fact that he seems to not be overly religious yet is very emphatic in stating his opposition to homosexuality in religious grounds indicates that he is compensating leading back to the crisis of faith. But enough with the cereal box psychology.
Out of curiosity does my reading of Mark seem about right?
ConservativeRepublican
@getreal:
I know plenty of conservative sites, but I’m curious about your intentions. Are you looking for a conservative site with kooks that you just want to piss off or are you looking for more of a reasonable conservative site where you can actually have some discussion and try to change minds? Let me know and I’ll give some recommendations.
dgz
@petted:
right on. although, maybe he left because his mom walked in.
vernonvanderbilt
@ConservativeRepublican: My philosophy is a simple one, though many find it oddly distasteful: Do unto others as they do unto you. Essentially, if you want me to treat you with respect, you’d best show some yourself first, especially if you are an avowed enemy. I am the very picture of politeness if someone takes the appropriate approach, but if you get on my bad side, I’m not going to attempt to spare your feelings. Part of our problem as GLBT people is that a lot of us choose to be polite to the point of caricature. I prefer to show someone that if they want to screw with me, I can screw back, harder, more painfully. I’m too old to take shit from morons, and I have other things that would actually enrich my life besides dealing with them.
If your approach works with the people in your life, congratulations. Where I’m from (middle of nowhere, Ohio) there are very few pliable types, and even fewer cordial ones. Around here, you have to be a bit of a badass to get proper respect.
@petted: I think you might be onto something, actually, but since he’s gone and probably won’t be back, it doesn’t make much difference anyway. Good looking out, though.
vernonvanderbilt
Okay, I think I have to call it a night. I’ve had a good time, myself. Can’t speak for the rest of you, but I hope you have as well. I’ll be sure to chack back here tomorrow at some point and see what else has been added to this messy stew. Take care all, and may your existence be pleasant for the duration of our separation.
V
dgz
@vernonvanderbilt:
Good night, and God bless 😉
hehe.
and thanks for the bedtime story.
Charles J. Mueller
@getreal:
Yes, Getreal….I am still here. Sorry that I could not respond immediately for I was in the middle of composing my reply in Microsoft Word to Vernon when you posted.
I don’t think I am going to be able to sleep tonight after reading Vernon’s last post. It is a masterpiece of writing and introspect into the motivations and behavoral traits of human beings.
Vernon is obviously a man who has obviously taken the time to study up on how human beings interact with each other and we both could learn much from him. His viewpoints have the indelible stamp of Werner Erhard, the man who created the EST Training and later on The Forum, the former of which I participated in while it was being given at the Pennsylvania Hotel in Manhattan a number of years back while still living in New York and and before I retired to Florida.
Vernon deftlyskillfully and awefully dissected the modus operandi of Mark with the precision and expertise of an English Professor diagramming a sentence. No fool to be toyed with, he.
Getreal (I wish i knew your real name), I do not know your age and before I say what I am going to say, I want you to know that I am not an ageist…in either direction. That said, however, I sense that you are a young person who is still very idyllic, perhaps even a bit naive, in your understanding of the world and how it really is. Would that we could all retain that child-like innocence throughout the course of our lives. Life, however, had other plans and lessons in store for us. As Werner said it so well, “Life is what happens while we are making other plans”.
The more you and I communicate back and forth, the more I take a liking to you, despite our differences about matters religious. Would that we could talk face to face, rather by this stiffling, inhibiting and one-dimentional medium we refer to as the written word. As the ancient Chinese proverb goes, one picture is worth a thousand words.
I really get that you are a warm, loving human being would wants nothing more than to be at peace with the world and live life in much the manner that John Lennon verbalized it in his wonderful song “Imagine”, which can still bring a grown man like myself to tears while listening to it.
Unfortunately, there are those in the world who are, to borrow Vernon’s perfect definition, “Shit-stirrers”. They are damaged goods that have been brain-washed for so long, that what they “believe”, as Vernon aptly pointed out, is the God’s honest truth and therefore, not open to discussion or debate.
I feel your pain my friend. At 72, I am a recovering Catholic. I battled with many of the same issues you, as a gay man, are coming to loggerheads with. As a small child, I too, much like you, thought that if I could stand on a mountaintop and preach my message of love, compassion, understanding and spread the milk of human kindness to all those awful people we were obliged to deal with during WWII; namely, Hitler, Mussolini and Hiro Hito, they would comprehend, lay their weapons down, embrace their brothers and sisters and live peacefully ever after.
Then I started growing up, unfortunately, and I took a good look at the sad condition of the world and it was not pretty. Among many injustices, I saw the bullies in high school, always taking advantage of the weaker boys and beating up on them. I was a peaceful lad, who like you, wanted to get along with everyone in a peaceful and harmonious way, have everyone like me, I avoided personal confrontation like the plague. Fortunately, I was a a sturdy, well built lad who acted and looked like he could take care of myself, so no one ever picked on me.
It was there that I was to learn one of life’s most important lessons.
My first fist fight occurred at around the age of 13 in the little village of Nassau, in upstate New York, where I spent the earlier part of my childhoo, that I was to learn one of life’s most important lessons. We had a hill on which we raced our soap-derbies ever afternoon after school and sometimes on weekends as well. Eugene Gully was our local bully and Stewy was our local 95 lb. weakling who Eugene loved to pick on and rough up every chance he got.
Eugene was not the sharpest pencil in the box and coming from a poor family of ignorant parents and macho-type older brothers, he had to prove his masculinity continually to maintain his macho bearing and demeanor, which had most of the kids in our class cowing to him. All but me. He pissed me off no end but not being a fighter, I never started anything with him, not until, that is, he pushed my head down on a school water fountain, ostensibly as a joke, causing me to chip a front tooth that many years later, abscessed and had to pulled and replaced with an expensive bridge.
I was jsut about ready to take a swing at Eugene when the school principal came along and seeing that a scuffle was about to break out, cautioned the both of us to cool it or risk suspension for fighting while on school grounds. Since “squeeling” was tantamount to being a Benedict Arnold in school, I kept my mouth shut about Eugene pushing my head into the fountain, thinking to myself that I would find the right opportunity to even things out.
For a week he kept his distance, knowing that we had a score to settle. The fact that I did not go out of my way to find him, must have emboldened him sufficiently to show up on the derby hill one afternoon after school. Believing that I was just going to let the incident pass by, he started up with Stewey and I realized that this was the opportunity I had been waiting for.
Like a demon possessed by the devil, I jumped out of my soap-box derby and was on him like fly on shit. I felt an anger rise inside of me that I had never known or experienced before. The anger that Vernon speaks so eloquently about in his thesis. Perhaps, for the first time in my life, I was in touch with my real self. The self that says, “Hey, this is not right and I mean to see that it is made right”.
In plain, everyday language, I kicked the shit out of Eugene. I was so angry, not only over what he had done to me, but what he had been doing to Stewey, who never hurt a soul in his entire life, that it took three other boys to pull me off of Eugene.
So, what’s the point of this long epistle, you are thinking to yourself? Well, for starters, I felt a hell of a lot better about myself, for one thing. Eugene never fucked with me again after that, nor did he ever fuck with any of my other classmates again.
In fact, Eugene and I became the best of buddies after that episode. Like two dogs who are suddenly put together, we had to find our common ground and decide who was going to be the top dog and who was going to be the bottom dog. I was certain, even at that young age, that I was not willing to play the role of bottom dog to anyone, ever.
Eugene had a lesson to learn in life, and I was his teacher. And in the process of teaching him a lesson, I learned one as well and that was that we always call people into our existence to help us learn. Sure, it caused a few bruises, a black eye and a couple of split lips but, you know what? We survived it, as we did so many other experience in life that may not have been the most pleasant to go through, but we came out of it stronger and better human beings, I think, as a result.
Mind you, I am not saying that kill, crush and destroy is the way to get through life. That sort of a hunt and destroy mentality will only get you killed in the end. I am not a quoter of Bible phrases, but I do believe that people who live by the sword, die by the sword.
There is a marked difference between being a bully and a man who walks the earth with self-pride, self-esteem and confidence and it is an invisible vestment that others can sense, even if they cannot see it. It is somewhat akin to Franklin D. Roosevelt’s now famous comment “Walk softly, but carry a big stick”.
You’e not looking for any trouble, but you’re ready to deal with it, if needs be. And that is where I have a big problem with passivity as a means with with to deal with the bullies. As Vernon so aptly pointed out, passivity, or turning the other cheek, is always, always, construed by the bullies as weakness.
Just like Eugene Gully equated my seemingly passive stance after he chipped my front tooth on the water fountain in school. He mistakenly reasoned that I was too “chicken” to do anything about it when I did not immediately come after him…and that emboldened him enough to come back to the hill, yet once again to stir-shit. Hot damn, I love that euphemism. That one gets filed in my memory bank.
So, can you see how we empower the bullies by our willingness to let shit go by without doing anything about it?
Okay. Now I’m also done.
For now.
getreal
@ConservativeRepublican: If read back through my posts I doubt you will deduce that I am looking to insult or incite. Mark I think courageously stated his opinion in a thread where he was in the minority and was able to receive incite into an issue he feels strongly about. I think It would be useful to go into a more conservative environment and as vernonvanderbilt said “shine a light”
getreal
@petted: Yes I think your assessment is very insightful. It seemed like Mark was fighting with himself a bit. I will probably be shot at dawn for saying it but he seemed like a nice albeit misguided man. I hope he will be back. We’ve got all kind of knowledge on offer here Mark and it won’t cost you a dime. Welcome.
getreal
Do I sound silly saying I am so impressed with the caliber of intellect on Queerty . DGZ,vernonvanderbilt,petted,and yes you Charles (even though we do disagree sometimes) Rock!
getreal
@Charles J. Mueller: I am going to sleep so i will address you properly tomorrow but I think you are a more loving person than you give yourself credit for and more of an idealist than you will admit. I don’t personally think it is weak or stupid to choose to be better than your enemy. Some of us choose to battle with love some of us hate I guess we choose the weapons we feel safest using. That is not a judgement just an observation you know I respect you. Jeez what a lovefest!
getreal
@vernonvanderbilt: Hey it was not just riots and militants it was the quiet dignity of Martin Luther King he preached forgiveness, fairness, and inclusiveness I think most people respond to that more than a kick in the pants. Make no mistake I feel the venom but it does not have to affect my actions or words (of course it does sometimes hey I’m a work in progress)
ConservativeRepublican
@getreal:
Do you have an e-mail address where I can send you some sites?
BTW, I think you and I are very similar in our approach to anti-gays (though I may be a bit more forceful). But if you had said you wanted to talk to some kooky conspiracy theorist types, I would’ve given you a list of such forums and said, “Have fun!” LOL
dgz
@getreal:
Getreal, you are THE cutest. (btw, i don’t mean that in a patronizing way, but in a purely collegial, complimentary vein.) thanks for the shout-out, even though i contributed zero to the substantive discussion on this thread. i hope your even-handed, respectful method of debate rubs off on us all.
p.s. i’m sure that ConservativeRepublican is a great person, but DON’T EVER post your email address on a forum. but you probably knew that already. just in case.
Charles J. Mueller
@dgz:
Geez, DGZ, don’t you ever go to bed either? HeeHee
You appear to be as big say-up-latenick as me.
Hope you’re either independently wealthy, or just retired like I am. Of course, I wouldn’t mind being both. lol
ConservativeRepublican
@dgz:
Um, dgz, why not? It’s not like I’m asking him to post his primary e-mail with his name or anything. And you can space it out and put crap between it so the bots don’t pick it up and add you to their spam lists. It’s really quite simple. For example, here’s my e-mail.
gayblahgoperblahatgmaildotcom
Remove the blahs and switch the ‘at’ and ‘dot’ for the appropriate symbols and you have it made.
CitizenGeek
You can’t call her a homophobe if she fully and genuinely supports civil unions and gay adoption. You just can’t. That would make Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton homophobes and I doubt very many gays would agree with that.
dgz
@Charles J. Mueller:
haha! no, unfortch i’m working all night — with frequent posting breaks. (not paid hourly, so happily guilt-free.)
@ConservativeRepublican:
no offense meant — i’m sure you’re cool and trustworthy. but while Mark was harmless, this site gets frequent visits from… shall we say, fringe elements?
plus, it only takes one spammer to subtract the blahs and enter into a registry, and bam! having recently lost all my data to a backdoor trojan [insert crude joke here] i’m over-cautious.
@CitizenGeek:
take an afternoon off, and read the Tolstoy epic of this thread. you’ll see that some do.
dgz
@ConservativeRepublican:
i suggest just posting the names of the sites, or link to them in this thread.
sorry for the double-post!
ConservativeRepublican
@dgz:
Oh, for pete’s sake…
Again, it’s not my main e-mail address, I access it via webmail, I don’t open or download any strange e-mails, and I’m on a mac. I’ll be fine.
As for your apparent paranoia, please stop saying ‘no offense’, because of course I take offense. It’s sending a freaking e-mail, bro. Maybe you’re part of an older generation or something and are terrified of e-mail, but it’s not like I’m asking him for his home address. If you’re smart about it, there is no reason to worry. And to be frank, it kind of disturbs me that you apparently have no desire to ever go beyond queerty. That suggests to me that you aren’t worth communicating with and getting to know. Are you asocial?
Getreal, feel free to e-mail me to chat. Or don’t. Choice is up to you.
dgz
dude, chill! i never said i have no desire to go beyond queerty, or impugned the websites you frequent. but if you’ve seen the fire-and-brimstone types who drop by queerty every odd day, you might hesitate to risk subjecting yourself to a box full of hatemail.
as for the whole internet security thing, you’re right. i’m not the most computer-literate person in the world. my best friend could hack a mac in her sleep, but there’s prolly little risk of that, here.
best of luck, i’m out.
Charles J. Mueller
@dgz:
Tolstoy Epic. I love it. lol
ConservativeRepublican
@dgz:
DGZ, I apologize. I read too much into your previous post and got overly defensive about the whole situation. I look forward to talking with you in the future.
dgz
no worries!
holler.
petted
Can’t believe this thread made the upper 90s – ok this gets it to 99 would someone like to bump it to a 100? Frivolous I know but its 1 in the morning and mild amusements are the name of the game.
Walsingham
You know, I’m all about the mild amusements.
Charles J. Mueller
And….it ain’t over until the fat lady sings. lol
Flex
@Leland Frances: I agree. Let’s hang this anti-gay cunt!
greybat
@Mark: Interesting. I married a man back when it was still legal.
I guess it was meant to happen.
Mark
OK I came back to read many of the posts over again.Many of you seem to suffer from feeling discriminated against for being gay.I know discrimination first hand… you see, I’m a Mormon and many in the world think were a cult and basically their scared of us because they don’t know what we believe.This sounds very similar to how people feel about those who are gay.Charles Mueller please go easy on me.
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark: There are NO similarities between Mormons and GLBT people. You people are moderately disliked because of what you believe. We are hated and persecuted because of who we are. You choose to be a member of a marginal faith. We are born the way we are. You wear magical underwear. We wear fashionable underwear. Polar opposites, buck.
Furthermore, you REALLY have a lot of nerve coming on here, a member of the enemy’s contingent, and trying to compare your “struggle” with our reality. Just because people puts hits out on your kind a hundred years ago and forced you to head west does not mean you are persecuted today. I don’t see anyone passing any laws saying Mormons can’t marry, adopt, teach, exist, etc. I don’t read stories about Mormons getting beaten and hung on fences, or shot in the head, or raped and murdered because of their religion.
What? You think you’re persecuted because a lot of people think you’re nuts? That’s not persecution…that’s opinion. Can you be denied a job because of your faith? Can you be denied housing because of it? Can you get fired from your job for it? Don’t you DARE come on here and try to say you understand where we’re coming from. You don’t, and you never will. Maybe you feel discriminated against, but we actually are discriminated against. When they start codifying bigotry against you and slipping it into state constitutions nationwide, maybe then we can talk.
Mark
@vernonvanderbilt: Vernon your comments confirm my statement of persecution.Your sarcastic comments about being a member of a marginal faith and then ridicule the clothing I choose to wear. Your comments are full of intolerance. Not once on this site have I chosen your path.I have chosen to come to this site to learn and share my feelings. I didn’t realize that this was a closed board.
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark: First, I didn’t say this was a closed board. By all means, you are welcome to come here as often as you like. You just need to be prepared to be called out when you make ridiculous statements. There is no comparison between Mormons and GLBT people as far as discrimination goes. I already pointed out why that is, but you chose to take issue with my attitude rather than try to argue against any of the points I made. All that tells me is that you know there’s no argument for your side of the issue.
If you were truly here to learn, you wouldn’t be trying to put yourself in the same boat as us. Someone who wants to learn acts respectfully, asks questions, and listens carefully to the answers that are provided. You seem more interested in the “sharing your feelings” part. The problem is that your “feelings” are incompatible with a rational and respectful view of the world and issues of equality.
If you want people to look favourably upon you, then it’s usually not the best idea to come in right off the bat being combative. No matter what your intent was when you came here, that is the attitude you took. You shouldn’t be surprised, then, when there are some of us who are more than willing to get combative right back. Besides that, you should know that being a Mormon at this point in history is not going to do you any favours with our community.
And you’re damn right when you say I’m intolerant. I’m intolerant of anyone who insists that I deserve second-class citizen status. It’s called knowing your enemies. I know who mine are.
Bottom line is, you want respect, you earn it. So far you’ve done nothing to warrant any. All I’ve seen from you during your time on this site is attack, attack, justify, attack, play the victim. Being more soft-spoken than the usual ‘phobes we get around here doesn’t change the content of your posts.
Mark
@vernonvanderbilt: Please show me one example where I’ve attacked on this board.
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark: Go back and read your earlier posts here. In post #46, I addressed your posts at #20, #24, and #29. I addressed your post #43 in my own post #49. I already explained what was offensive and combative about your presence here thus far. If you think I’m wrong, then as the interloper it’s your own responsibility to defend/clarify yourself, which you haven’t done, leading me to believe that you have no qualms about my interpretations. If you’re really here to learn and share ideas as you claim, then you’ll make more than a token effort to understand why your posts are offensive to most of us, and attempt to engage in something more closely resembling actual discourse as opposed to simple trolling. You can’t clean up your image with feel-good platitudes and bland, “I’m the victim here” blather. Go re-read the posts in question and then, if you have anything that’s actually thoughtful or constructive to add to the discussion, I’ll consider reconsidering my opinion of you.
Mark
@vernonvanderbilt: Vernon your’e a tough cookie.Let me ask you some questions about yourself.Do you feel people are born gay or do they choose the gay lifestyle sometime after birth?Why do men and women feel they must label themselves as gay?Have you always been gay?Have you ever been married?Would you like to marry?
vernonvanderbilt
@Mark: Okay, now we’re having a conversation. You’re learning. I will answer your questions.
“Do you feel people are born gay or do they choose the gay lifestyle sometime after birth?”
I believe a lot of that depends on the person, as well as your definition of what “gay” actually is. I believe, and credible science and psychology back me up on this, that genuine same-gender attraction is an inherent, genetic trait. However, much like in the 1970’s with the glam rock movement, and today with the emo subculture, I also believe that you find a lot of younger people who latch onto a sort of vague “queerness” because they see it as “cool” and “subversive,” though they may not necessarily be gay in actuality. The way I define “true” gayness is someone who is usually or always inclined to be attracted to someone of their own sex at social, physical, emotional, and spiritual levels. In other words, it is something that is automatic and ingrained, not affected for its “shock value.”
“Why do men and women feel they must label themselves as gay?”
Why does anyone label themselves anything? It’s about having a sense of community, a group of like-minded individuals to which you can belong. If you survey a large enough group of non-heterosexuals, you will actually find a very diverse array of labels they apply to themselves. You have gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people, of course, but there are also people who use terms such as queer, questioning, intersexed, two-spirit, same-gender loving, etc. It’s also a political exercise by some people, a declaration of their status in a world that is largely unfriendly, in order to be visible as a minority.
I would not say that most people who label themselves as gay necessarily feel that they “must” do so, but rather search out whatever label it is that they feel best suits the reality of their own existence. Everyone does this. Heterosexuals pick their labels, we pick ours.
“Have you always been gay?”
Indeed, I have. It wasn’t until around age 13 or so that I acquired the vocabulary to understand what I felt, but those feelings go back as far as I can remember. I had my first crush on Ricky Schroeder around age five or so. I simply didn’t think there was anything unusual about that until I was older and realized that not all of the boys at school had the same feelings I did. Once I had the words at my disposal, everything started to make sense. After all, if there were words to describe these feelings I had, that meant other people must feel them as well.
“Have you ever been married?”
Nope, and I have yet to have a reason to want to.
“Would you like to marry?”
Someday, when I find that person I wish to grow old with, I would love to have the option. But that would depend on the specifics of whatever that situation would be, and whether or not my eventual partner would be interested in the same thing. I happen to believe that marriage is not something to be entered into lightly, and that if you decide to take that step you need to be very certain of what you’re doing, because the statistics are against you.
Now, in the interests of fairness, I would like to pose some questions to you, if I may. Since we’re making an attempt at civility now, I assure you that I have no intent to offend with any of these questions, only to foster an atmosphere of mutual understanding.
1. How did you come to be a Mormon?
2. How many GLBT people do you know personally?
3. Do you identify as heterosexual? If so, how do know that’s where you fit? I’m talking about at the personal level, mind you, not definitions or social conventions.
4. How does another person’s relationship actually affect your own life, positively or negatively?
5. Even if you are opposed to marriage equality, how do you justify churches and religious groups interfering in what is a purely secular matter in a purely secular system?
6. In your opinion, if the LDS church is not opposed to equal rights regarding housing, employment, benefits, survivorship, etc., why haven’t they lived up to that proclamation and assisted in the passage of the Common Grounds initiative in Utah? We know most of it has already been shut down, and the rest is about to meet the same fate, so why do you think the church, in this instance, did not practice what it preached?
You are, of course, free to respond to my answers, and I will presume the same freedom to respond to any that you provide. Additionally, if you come up with more questions as a result of this discussion, I will welcome them and respond as truthfully and completely as I can. If you’re genuinely interested in learning something from your time on this site, then I have no problem assisting with that. I will make every effort to stay calm and civil. All I ask is that you remember that this is a very emotional and personal issue for a lot of people, myself included.
Charles J. Mueller
@vernonvanderbilt:
Hey Vernon. I had pretty much surmised that all the threads going back to Feb.12th had pretty much run their course and were now closed books.
Then I noticed that the postings on this thread had suddenly jumped from 100 to 111, obviously, as a result of Marks’s decision to re-visit this site. And, I am truly glad to see that he has decided to return.
I am also delighted to see that you have re-engaged him and that there now seems to some effort on Mark’s behalf at actually discussing the issues and asking questions. That is very encouraging, indeed.
I think you answered Mark’s questions superbly…far better than I think I could have. You make a great spokesman for LGBT people and present our issues clearly, concisely and articulately.
The questions that you have put forth to Mark are also excellent and I am very hopeful that Mark will address each of them honestly and from the heart, rather than from his religious beliefs so that we can come to know and understand him better, as he comes to know and understand us.
In an earlier posting that Mark made, he asked me to go easy on him. Inasmuch as it seems that you guys have established a working two-way dialogue, I want Mark to be assured that I am not here to gang-up on him or beat him up verbally as doing so would only shut him down.
I am honestly interesting in hearing Mark’s thoughtful and meaningful responses to the questions you have posed to him and unless Mark directs any specific questions toward me, I will be very happy to just remain in the background as an observer so as not to disrupt or derail the flow of conversation between the two of you.
I am also hopeful that Getreal, should he happen to return to this thread again, will also choose to remain in the background as an observer like myself. 😉
I will be anxiously looking forward to a continuation of the dialogue between you and Mark.
vernonvanderbilt
@Charles J. Mueller: I’m looking forward to it myself. As much as people may not believe it, I don’t like it when I get all worked up and vitriolic. I enjoy discussion more than ranting. If you haven’t already, you should subscribe to the thread and get e-mail updates on new posts. That’s the only way I even realized he had returned. I subscribe to every thread I post on, because if I post on one that means I think it has the potential for interesting discussion.
Charles J. Mueller
@vernonvanderbilt:
Excellent idea. It has never occurred to me to use that feature and as a result, I have probably missed some interesting responses to commentaries I have made that got stale and which I never went back to.
Thanks for the heads up. 😉 Like you, I’ll be using it on potentially interesting discussion threads from here on in, starting with this reply to you instead of trusting it to memory as I have been doing.
Mark
@vernonvanderbilt: Vernon …thanks for yor response. In answer to your questions. How did you come to be a Mormon? I met a wonderful family in my late teens and decided that I wanted what they had.They were devout Mormons and there was always peace in their home. I to came from a wonderful home.The only way I can describe it is I felt at peace thru what I call the spirit of Christ.I’m happily married and have raised some great children.I could go on and on.
How many GLBT people do you know personally?A few.I can’t say I know who is always Gay or not when I’m in a social situation.I don’t have a good or best friend that is GLBT that I know of.
Do you identify as a heterosexual? Yes. If so, how do you know where you fit in?I have one wife(no polygamy haha) who I adore and whom I’m very much attracted to emotionally,spirtiually and physically.
How does another person’s relationship actually affect your own life,positively or negatively? I don’t know if I fully understand this question. If your asking me how I feel about two men or two women in a relatonship then I would have to say it depends.My biggest turn off is when two people of the same sex demonstrate affection in public which attracts attention.When I say demonstrate I mean those who show off by kissing passionately in public.I find this distateful because I’m opposed to this type of a relationship.Does that make sense?
Even if you are opposed to marriage equality,how do you justify churches and religious groups interfering in what is a purely secular matter in a purely secular system? I don’t have a strong argument for this question.I’m not against gay relationships.I want them to have the same rights as married heterosexual couples.I’m opposed to the term marriage for gay couples because I believe that the word marriage is meant for a union btween a man and woman.To answer your question my religious belief influences my secular actions.
in answer to your last question about the common grounds initiative in Utah I have not studied this to give an opinion.
Please understand that my relgious beliefs guide me through this life and I hold them dear to me.Please let me know if you have any further questions.
B. Mahaffey
Anyone who worked for eBay should NEVER be allowed to become involved in politics. I recently closed an eBay account due to unethical business practices and customer service doing nothing about the issue due to supporting the buying habit of the high-volume buyer. When I asked to speak with the CEO, I always received an evasive response. I sent numerous letters to this woman when she was working as CEO for eBay and not once did I receive a response, therefore she supported the unethical business practice. If she was unwilling to do her job effectively, and ethically, while working for eBay, what kind of politician could she possibly be? We have enough politicians in California living off our hard-earned taxpayer dollars, we don’t need another do-nothing politician. Please take this note seriously as you are a taxpayer just am I, and I want my taxes well spent on someone who will do the job and not just sit and spend our hard-earned money for nothing.