Fred Karger, the gay Republican running a vanity campaign for the party presidential nomination, has one thing in common with the religious right. When it comes to Mormonism, Karger can be every bit as bigoted as the nuttiest evangelicals. In an attempt to lower the already underground bar for civilized political discourse, Karger has launched a website called the Top 10 Craziest Mormon Beliefs because nothing says GOP presidential caliber more than ridiculing the religious beliefs of fellow Americans.Now, let’s be clear: When it comes to institutional homophobia, the Mormon Church stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the religious right, the Catholic Church and, well, most of the Republican party. For us, they do not make sympathetic victims. How can we ever forget how Mormon dollars essentially bought Proposition 8, just to give one example? When it comes to denying us the core equality its members take for granted, the Mormon Church is second to none.
But whether Mormons believe Joseph Smith had golden plates that angels took away or that men should wear special underwear has nothing to do with the Church’s political positions. If the Mormon Church was the biggest booster of gay rights in the religious cosmos, Karger would probably be lauding them for the lovable quirkiness of their beliefs. Every religion, indeed every group of Americans, has its quirks. Instead, he’s reaching out to “educate America” by essentially calling Mormons crazy. The political beliefs of many Mormons may be reprehensible when it comes to gay rights (and women’s rights), but that doesn’t give Karger the right to target their faith. If anyone should understand what it’s like to be the victim of false and defamatory canards based on nothing more than identity, it’s Karger.
And not all Mormons are as homophobic as the church leadership. Karger need look no further than fellow GOP presidential candidate Jon Huntsman, the ex-governor of Utah, who has said that he favors civil unions. That position is of course far short of supporting full equality but not exactly a burn-them-at-the-stake philosophy either. Mormons will probably never be at the forefront of LGBT equality, but that doesn’t mean that individuals won’t come around to a more progressive attitude, especially if they are enlightened as to how bigotry against one vulnerable minority group hurts every minority group. We can foresee a future where at the very least the church no longer contributes part of its vast financial fortune to anti-gay causes.
That’s never going to happen by resorting to ridiculing Mormons. Karger has done great work uncovering the church’s financial ties to ant-gay campaigns. (He’s also done great work exposing NOM’s financing.) But by running a campaign trying to promote a principle, Karger had the chance to prove that he could be the one statesman (and a gay one at that) in the clown car of the Republican presidential race.
How about we take this to the next level?
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Instead, he’s showed that he can be just as nutty (and downright bigoted) as the rest of them.
photo by Gage Skidmore
h/t David Weigel
Mike
I lost all patience with Fred Karger when he used Anita Bryant imagery to call for an orange juice boycott from Florida because they MOVED THE PRIMARY UP. Anyone who will use such a hurtful time in GLBT history to make a stupid-ass point about which state should have their primary when…just lost total respect from me not only as a candidate but as a GLBT leader.
Not to mention that when Cain pulled out of the race he tried to say he wasn’t “all that bad” and “kind of supported GLBT rights.” I don’t know if Fred Karger still has issues with his sexuality but the stances he takes sure sound apologist and GOProud-y to me.
Kylew
I really don’t get where this web site is coming from. You really do love to play all sides against the middle don’t you? Is there absolutely NO coherency to your reporting?
It seems glaringly obvious to me why a gay candidate would directly attack the faith of his opponents – to undermine their credibility when they start running on moral grounds. Many mormons were not even aware of the racism of the organisation, let alone those outside the faith. By pointing out how preposterous and laughable the religion is, it greatly disempowers them when they speak about ANYTHING.
I just wish a candidate had the balls to take on mainstream christianity and the muslim faith in the same way.
Kylew
Oh and whining that “not all Mormons are as homophobic as the church leadership” is like saying “Not all nazis believed in the death camps”. You don’t associate with a group that wilfully practices prejudice. End of.
JohnAGJ
Well it’s not like many of those who are gay and more liberal-minded are much better. Witness the reactions at Towleroad to David Archuleta’s announcement of taking a hiatus from singing to become a Mormon missionary:
http://www.towleroad.com/2011/12/archuleta.html
Kylew
@JohnAGJ: If he’d said that he was quitting singing to go abuse children, you’d have said that most of those comments were completely justified, but that’s exactly what his decision is tantamount to. How many gay kids will commit suicide because of Archuleta’s preaching?
However, at that age, it’s very hard to see past the indoctrination – especially when his entire relationship with his family is put at stake. It’s typical cult behaviour to tie the next generation to them, and isolate the kids from rationality.
Marcus
All religions are equally stupid and pointless.
Alex, UK
Karger is right, Mormonism IS ridiculous and a lot more so than other mainstream ones…
It’s a cult.
adam
when the entire Republican party refuses to rise above homophobia, should we reasonably expect the only homosexual candidate to rise above anti-mormonism? sure, i’d rather see the whole process free of such prejudices, but isn’t this another form of tit for tat? the pot calling the kettle a different shade of black? i’m afraid all’s fair in schmuckdom and war, guys. . .
corey
When will people get it? To be a “conservative” you must be a self-centered, selfish, arrogant….basically an a-hole. There is no other way around it, whether gay or straight, black or white, Christian or Jew, conservative ideology teaches only one thing “Me, Me, Me”. So if a group or person is not in the majority, they must be crushed, they are different, they are outside the “norm” and this threatens conservatives. Conservative and fundamentalist religious people connect on the very basic level of their need to survive, over all other things…its all “Me, Me, Me”. Also, Capitalism, unregulated, free market, (etc) are also “Me, Me, Me”…as in “Profits before People” and not “We the People”. This is what Conservatism is. Throughout history, those who follow this ideology are always against anything minorities want, its the “Me, Me, Me” at its best. There is no way around this, this is pure fact and not opinion.
tookietookie
This was misguided at best. I have no sympathy for Mormons.
Kurt
Queerty has it right, for once.
Dan
Mormonism’s founder killed his own followers and was executed for it as an American traitor. It is definitely a cult.
corey
@Dan: actually, the founder of Mormons was killed by a gang of Christians from another sect, while he was jailed. I say we let them all kill each other off by trying to “Out Christian” each other.
kawneekwa
I luvs them secret temple rituals the men USED TO performed (on women and other unlucky worshipers)
Tom
Rather stupid piece. It might be bigotry to ridicule a group of people unfairly. It is not “bigotry” to criticize, denounce, or even ridicule beliefs. Calling all Mormons dumb might be bigoted, but pointing out the absurdity of believing in magic underwear or the existence of an Israelite nation in North America is not bigotry.
Queerty is such a fail of a blog. When will it end?
David Ehrenstein
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHEqCXY2B-w
David Ehrenstein
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEKuGcmW70I
Cinesnatch
wow, a balanced post that looks at things from more than one angle. Am I on Queerty?
Shannon1981
I always say it, and I’ll say it again: gay Republicans are RIDICULOUS. The GOP is the party of bigots, period. No surprise here- being a member of said party gives him a right to discriminate. He can’t do it against US, because(unfortunately) he is one of us. But still a bigot.
On a side note, though, thanks, Fred, for giving the Mormons a taste of their own medicine.
WillBFair
Fine post, John. I’ve never seen your work, but if this is any indication, I’m glad you’re here.
Indeed, Daniel and the other writers, and now you, make this the best, most common sensible, silly and snarky site this side of Skeletor’s twitching eye.
the crustybastard
FTFA: “If the Mormon Church was the biggest booster of gay rights in the religious cosmos, Karger would probably be lauding them for the lovable quirkiness of their beliefs.”
If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. If a frog had wings it wouldn’t bump its ass a-hoppin’. “If [the impossible happens], then…” isn’t much of an argument, sport.
FTFA: “The political beliefs of many Mormons may be reprehensible when it comes to gay rights (and women’s rights), but that doesn’t give Karger the right to target their faith.”
The mere fact that Karger is a rational human gives him the right to “target their faith,” particularly where that faith is exploited to mistreat other humans. Despite your and their belief to the contrary, religious people don’t get some special right to be dicks to other people. You’re free to be as superstitious as you like, but don’t assume you have superior rights to mine.
FTFA: “We can foresee a future where at the very least the church no longer contributes part of its vast financial fortune to anti-gay causes. That’s never going to happen by resorting to ridiculing Mormons.”
If you stop fighting back, they’ll eventually quit hitting you? Really? LOL.
Dumbest thing I’ve read all week.
Steve
religion is a choice and therefore perfectly open to ridicule. I ridicule Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Mormonism equally. Each one is equally reprehensible.
LandStander
I do not see what is inappropriate about pointing out some of the crazy things religious books say. In fact, I wish it would happen more often. Yes, yes, respect peoples beliefs blah blah, but should I really just sit and bite my tongue the next time someone tells me a senior citizen gathered up two of every single type of animal on the planet and put them in a boat? No, like Fred Karger, you say “do you know just how many creatures and living environments your talking about? That’s ridiculous!”
GreatGatsby2011
Ridiculous. The Mormon church lost all claim to respect from the LGBT community when it spent MILLIONS of dollars cast homosexuals in California back into 2nd class citizenship. As long as the Mormons continue to call me an abomination, then I’m allowed to call them bat-sh!t crazy polygamists who are afraid that the flying spaghetti monster will get them if they don’t wear their magic underwear. And I relish every opportunity to do so.
JohnAGJ
@Kylew: Meh. I’m not going to defend Mormonism, I have problems with the religion even before we get into the LDS Church’s role with Prop 8. Now, I really don’t have a problem with anyone who practices it despite my personal disagreements with their theology as long as they aren’t trying to force it on me. Ditto for any other religious or irreligious belief system. My point here though was that Queerty was making an issue of Karger’s criticism of Mormon beliefs just because he is a Republican but I’ve seen liberals do the exact same thing. It’s probably not wise politically to do this when running for office, since you’re supposed to try to attract all voters regardless of religion, but I’m not really bothered by this. Of course that’s probably easy for me to say since I think Mormonism is pretty… queer let’s say.
Jess
I’m surprised that catholics were brought up in the article. I know that the higher ups of the catholic church are generally homophobic, but I’ve never met a single homophobic catholic in my life, and I live in a huge catholic area. I’m sure that they exist, but I’ve been happily surprised at how accepting they are (my grandma is catholic and she is so tolerant. She firmly believes that all lgbt people deserve equal rights, and she fights for them).
K-Hole
For the record, the Mormon Church attacked first. And just because you call yourself a religion, that doesn’t mean you have free license to promote hate.
I dated a recovering Mormon. He was in San Diego. The Church said he could stay in their ranks if he submitted to “the cure.” The cure was a trip over the border to Tijuana, to avoid litigation and medical regulations … the trip involves electro-shock therapy.
They use “aversion therapy” exposing young men to graphic gay imagery and inducing electric shocks. From talking to several people that have experienced it first hand, this is not uncommon. The media doesn’t talk about it to be sensitive to religious diversity. There are GLBT youths resorting to suicide to get away from that madness.
Cult + 400 years = Acceptable religion
The Mormons will seem more normal as time passes. But the weird stuff about the magic undies and getting a planet when you die seems odd. Not to mention that they use a separate Bible … You could say they just supplement the old and new testament with a newer one. But by that same logic, Christians are Jews because the old testament is incorporated into the Bible.
Jack E. Jett
Mormons should be laughed at, mocked and ridiculed. They are cultish idiots. If that weren’t bad enough, they are horrible bigots. Fucked up bigots. Just like the followers of Jim Jones and his fucked up troop of numbskulls. So Fuck ’em. Fuck ’em raw in their white Mormon moronic assholes.
Timothy-Allen Albertson
Interesting. If we changed the word “Mormon” to “Muslim” many who have readily
jumped on this anti-Mormon bandwagon would be screaming “islamophobia”. Which
is ironic because I dont see Gay men being hanged in Utah as we ll too often see
in Iran.
CBRad
@Timothy-Allen Albertson: Don’t try to figure it out. There are certain Gay Rules and categories, and Mormons were placed in the Bad category but Muslims weren’t, so all reactions will just go according to The Rule List. (Not, of course, that Mormons shouldn’t be intensely criticized or even despised, if one wants, and Muslims can’t be defended, but……there’s no thought put into the reasons why, it’s just reactionary talk, to fit into the gay world).
Joseph
Ridiculing is taking something that isn’t ridiculous and making it seem so. You can’t ridicule something that is already ridiculous. No other idea in human discourse is placed above criticism. If someone has the right to express their religious views, other people have the right to analyze and criticize it. The only reason many people draw a fence around religion is that no religion could stand up to that criticism, so there seems to be a mutual agreement among religions not to throw stones from their glass houses.
If Michelle Bachmann thinks a vaccine can cause retardation, we ridicule her. If Sarah Palin thinks she’s a foreign policy expert because the Kamchatka Penninsula is across the water from Alaska, we ridicule her. If a candidate were to declare their belief in leprechauns or fairies, the jokes would never end. If Mitt Romney believes there was a Jewish empire in America that we just haven’t found the evidence for yet, that Native Americans are decended from Jews, that Jesus is living on the planet Kolob and the powers of magic underwear… we’re supposed to “respect” that? Sorry, there is no benefit at all to shutting down our brain’s reasoning power and declaring ANY concept or idea off-limits from critical thought and rational analysis.
Before making this post, the author might want to have consulted his fellow writer, Salmon Rushdie, and asked him his thoughts on the right to ridicule religion and who has it worse in society, the religious majority or the ridiculing minority.
Joseph
@CBRad: Here’s a simple explanation for you. Once upon a time, there were fundamentalist Christians and radical Republicans, although they were mostly the same group. They didn’t ridicule the Muslims’ belief in a God or that someone could ride a horse to heaven because those ideas sounded sensible to them. They also kinda liked their ideas about how to treat women. Instead, they began hating Muslims themselves only because they weren’t fundamentalist Christians like themselves – the same reason they didn’t like gay people. They were different and they were able to find negative verses about them in their favorite book that gave them the cover to hate these people and make their lives miserable and yet feel good about doing so. They proceeded to make up conspiracy theories to frighten the well-meaning but ignorant and then use this fear to gain political power. By ascribing all evil in the world to Muslims, and then insinuating that Barack Obama was a Muslim, they could get these people to support any position they wanted, no matter how many decent, all-American muslims suffered as a result.
And THAT is what no one who gives this “the Muslims get treated better” line acknowledge, being quite disingenuous in the process. Let’s take the late great Christopher Hitchens. He actively disliked Islam because of its treatment of women, suppression of religious freedom, use of violence, etc. He liked or disliked Muslim PEOPLE based on their own words and deeds. The reactionary right hates Muslim PEOPLE for reasons it often makes up and doesn’t admit to its real motivations. Hitchens’ position was one of rational criticism and justified ridicule of crazy and harmful beliefs… the other is racism and zenophobia hiding behind religious critique and inventing conspiracy theories as cover and used as a tool to gain political power. Do you see why people are quick to jump against that type of behavior, but not quick to jump at Karger’s laughing at the idea of magic underwear? “Karger has stated that he considers his bid less about winning the presidency, than about getting the LDS Church to end its political campaign against same-sex marriage.” We see that his aims are benevolent rather than the typically malevolent aims of those who use Islamophobia (remember a phobia is an irrational fear; Hitchens displayed a rational fear of radical Islam because it was grounded in facts rather than misconceptions and conspiracy). Finally, Karger is “a non-practicing Jew”, which might be a nice way of saying atheist, which makes his laughing at Mormon beliefs attributable solely to the fact that he is apparently sane and doesn’t accept extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.
I hope you understand the difference now… I’ll openly laugh at the idea that someone can ride a horse to “heaven” and participate in “Draw Mohammed Day” and double over laughing at the Iranian cleric who said that earthquakes were caused by women showing too much cleavage. But I won’t freak out when a Congressperson wants to be sworn into office with a Koran instead of a Bible, whisper that the President is a “secret Muslim”, or boycott companies that sponsor television programs that show real American Muslims and not the Lawrence of Arabia stereotypes fearmongers want to portray. I’ll call that as bigotry and zenophobia. And when Richard Dawkins laughs at the creationist museum that shows humans riding dinosaurs with saddles? I won’t denounce that as bigotry; I’ll applaud that as using one’s brain and denounce any author who dares to call it bigotry rather than rationality and common sense.
CBRad
@Joseph: I, basically, don’t disagree with anything you say there. But you’re discussing the world of thinking (or at least reasonably thinking) people, and I was just describing to Mr. Albertson….something else ( the reactionary gay world which doesn’t think).
CBRad
@Joseph: The @Joseph: The only thing I’ll disagree with you on is that hitchens was great. The guy was a strike-them-first warmonger, in my opinion.
TxHeat
Karger is right on this issue,I cannot believe any Gay person would defend Mormons. Mormons declared war on Gays and we have a right to defend ourselves.I make sure anyone I know or meet knows every little dirty secret of this dangerous cult.
Joseph
@CBRad: I’ll agree with you in that I believe Hitchens’ reasonably well-founded dislike of radical Islam and dictatorships in general led him to support the Iraq war as a means of gaining a democratic foothold in an Arab population and this goal distorted his perception of the invasion and Bush’s motivations and to not be honest even with himself about the full reasons for his support.
“…and I was just describing… something else ( the reactionary gay world which doesn’t think).”
Let’s be honest here… most people, of any sexual orientation, react more often than they think. 🙂 Actually, probably at least 10 years ago, I came across a quote from a source now unknown that simply said “Most people don’t think; they react” and I’ve quoted it quite often myself ever since. I guess I was implicitly addressing the “the liberals hate Christianity but the Muslims can do no wrong” charge I’ve heard from several tv pundits of a certain ideological persuasion lately.
CBRad
@Joseph: yes, most people don’t think, they react (and, as Anais Nin said, “We don’t see things as they are, we see things as WE are”) but my own experience shows me that gays (“ghetto gays”, especially) behave that way more than the general population. Everything has to be black-and-white, and they can’t handle the shades of gray that complicate their stance, so they just reject it. (Ex. : No gay would go to protest Ahmendinejad when he’d visit NYC, because they see him, not as a homophobe first, but as an enemy of Right Wing Christians in the U.S., Right Wing christians who are supposed to be the gay’s enemy and….”that can’t be….I don’t understand…Christians are just as bad…I’m a Gay-Gay…I was ‘Born This Way’!!!!….where’s my scotch..!” (Sorry, but you see how much I despise ghetto gays. Especially being a native of NYC and then having to deal with the suburban gay hicks who move here just to be like that).
CBRad
@Joseph: Also, Hitchens’ arguments against religious dogma were good, but I just didn’t like him as a person otherwise.
james_from_cambridge
In case Queerty hasn’t noticed, our community is under attack from the Mormon Church. Yes, the Catholics, the Evangelical loons, the Muslims, they all want our blood. The Mormon Church, however, has actually drawn some. It was their money and man-power that got marriage repealed in California (they sent an army of Mormons into the State to go door to door, lying about what the pro-gay marriage ruling by the court would have done to families and churches.)
However, all the recent attacks against us by the Catholic Church have failed miserably. Catholics (and their money) are leaving the church in droves as the Church continues to be torn apart by scandal and by their strident anti-gay bigotry. They were unable to do a thing to stop gay marriage in New York, despite their threats against the Catholic Senators and others who helped pass New York’s gay marriage law (New York’s great Governor Andrew Cuomo all but told them to fuck off, publicly, and he made gay marriage a priority, forcibly shoving it through the legislature and when it passed after a vicious battle, his approval ratings went through the roof. That tells you whose side most Catholics in New York are on when it comes to equality!) It’s much the same with Evangelicals, as many of their followers are also turned-off by their church’s strident attack on us. Look how badly all their favorite loons are doing in the Republican primary! As for Muslims, while they’re perhaps even more conservative than other groups, their numbers are much too small to impact us (that’s not the case in Europe but that’s another problem for another time.) Mormons, however, are still by and large under the control of their bigoted church and are therefore the number one danger to us politically. And remember, THEY declared war on US, not the other way around and we have every right to fight back. We have every right to get into the mud and fling it back at them. Fighting dirty is something Liberals by and large have a problem with, which is why we generally get our asses kicked politically. But our community desperately needs to wake the fu*k up and realize that’s the only way to win sometimes. Like it or not, Americans like fighters, not whiners. Let’s take a page from the Civil Rights movement and embrace the term “equal rights by any means necessary”!
james_from_cambridge
@CBRad: That’s just flat-out an absurd comparison; even if I accept your charge that Black people are all homophobic (which is ridiculous but let’s say you’re right for the sake of argument) how exactly does that equate with an organization like the Mormon church that’s actively trying to hurt the gay community by funding anti-gay groups and sending it’s minions door to door to scare people into taking away our rights? Black people and Black organizations don’t make it their life’s mission to destroy us like the Christian, Muslim and Mormon churches do. On a personal note about Blacks being homophobes, I’m half Irish, half Black; my dad’s side, which is Irish, was pretty brutal to me when I came out. Especially his sister (my aunt), whom I’d grown very close to after my dad died. She’s been married twice and she isn’t exactly a paragon of virtue and I’d never heard her utter the name of Jesus, until she found out I was gay. After, it was a series of brutal lectures about the kind of sin I was committing. Her hypocritical reaction destroyed our relationship. But thankfully my mom, my grandma and my cousins on my mom’s side, who are all Black, were there for me when I came out to them. Even my grandma, who didn’t really understand the whole concept of being gay, never judged me.
A Black individual who might be homophobic is not in any way equal to a multi-billion dollar organization that’s out to turn us into third-class citizens, using politicians and tv ads and by sending people by the thousands into States like California, which is usually out of the sphere of influence of their church. They have near-draconian anti-gay laws in the one State they control, Utah, and they are now trying to flex their muscle nation-wide, so if they can’t take the heat, they should have shut the fu*k up and stayed in their little Handmaid’s Tale-like paradise in Utah.
And by the way, the NAACP and other Black organizations like it have endorsed gay marriage, as have all the major Black leaders, from Jesse Jackson, to Al Sharpton (Sharpton and Congresswoman Maxine Waters are incredibly, forcefully pro-gay) and nearly every Black politician, as well as national organizations like the Metropolitan Black Bar Association. And over one hundred clergy from the D.C. area recently held a pro gay marriage rally (link below.) What Mormon group or politician or political organization has done the same?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104998058
CBRad
@james_from_cambridge: Well…WHEN Blacks are homophobic, wouldn’t it be fair to point out disparities in our histories, and say how dare they criticize us? When their murder rate against each other is like….what? three times as high as it was before the Civil Rights movement? Isn’t it fair to point that out and say “Take a look at yourselves first..”? You see? Even you’re not sincere about fighting dirty when it goes against your own sensibilities.
Code Pink
@james_from_combridge: Good points made.
The above from @CBRad: dosen’t make any sense. Talk about sensibilities.
james_from_cambridge
@CBRad: Like Code Pink said, I have no idea what you’re trying to say…
CBRad
@james_from_cambridge: Why don’t you get it ? Makes perfect sense. I choose equality for homosexuals by any means necessary. No more being polite to enemies. I’ll point out the insanity of Mormons, the inbreeding of Hasidic Jews, and the dysfunction of African-Americans any time they get anti-gay with me.
james_from_cambridge
@CBRad: Since I already dismantled your ridiculous argument that Blacks = Mormon church I’m just going to move on. You clearly aren’t interested in a logical back and forth, which is, sadly, typical of Queerty since the changeover in management.
CBRad
@james_from_cambridge: I don’t think you dismantled anything. You’re the one not interested in any gay-activism-logic that doesn’t sit comfortably with your other agendas.
TGC
@corey: ” So if a group or person is not in the majority, they must be crushed, they are different, they are outside the “norm” and this threatens conservatives.”
You mean like Gov. Bobby Jindal, Gov. Niki Haley or Sen. Marco Rubio? It’s liberals who hate them, not Conservatives. Shall we go back and look at the stories of how gays expressed their hatred for the Mormons after the Prop. 8 kerfuffle? How about some of the anti-Semitic comments by the Occutwats? How about the rally out in California where liberals were suggesting that Clarence Thomas should be lynched?
Given that liberals vote for the party that used to hang blacks to keep them from voting, and now keeps them afraid to vote for Republicans, I’m not quite sure I get what you’re talking about.
james_from_cambridge
@TGC: Justify it to yourself all you want but it’s the Republicans that despise gays, not Democrats. It’s your self-loathing that makes you vote GOP, a party that has made it clear it wants to march your gay ass into an oven, if that is, they can’t convert you first. Idiot.