![rosary[1]](https://queerty-prodweb.s3.amazonaws.com/2009/10/rosary1-200x150.jpg "rosary[1]")
If you’re the type of gay who insists on being Catholic (or, uh, the type of Catholic who insists on being gay), good for you. But just be sure you don’t try to misappropriate the Virgin Mary, ’cause your “queer rosary” is the equivalent of blasphemy: “When I saw the story last week out of Berkeley, CA and I read the words “Queering the Rosary” I immediately felt my blood begin to boil. Just retyping that degrading phrase makes me cringe. … The most nauseating part of this blasphemy is that the group it comes from includes some so-called Catholics, in particular a man named Eugene McMullan from Berkeley. Mr. McMullan is a theology graduate student and the founder of a group which calls itself “Catholics for Marriage Equality”. He invented what he maintains is a brand-new set of mysteries for the holy rosary called the “Relational Mysteries” that casts the relationship between biblical heroes like Ruth and Naomi, and David and Jonathan in a homosexual light.”
Cam
Does your blood boil over the fact that certain passages in the Bible cannot be easily translated back into Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek and were determined by language experts to have been added in, around the 1100’s by the church? That would be altering the Bible wouldn’t it? Wouldn’t changing the words, the meaning, or adding in new passages be also blasphemous by your definition? Or do you only get mad when somebody changes something you’ve already been taught, whether or not it is actually true to the origional?
mojojojo
Just face facts, Christianity is an inherently homophobic religion.
Michael vdB
Christianity, in itself, is not an inherently homophobic religion because Jesus taught everyone to love one another regardless of circumstances. It is only man’s “version” or his interpretation and his earthly “morals” that have turned Christianity into what it is today.
Being Christian is a personal journey. The organized part of religion is all about control and telling people what they should think.
AlanInSLC
Religion in general is inherently homophobic, with a few (and I mean a very few) exceptions.
Eugene
“Christianity, in itself, is not an inherently homophobic religion because Jesus taught everyone to love one another regardless of circumstances.”
Bullshit. Even when you “love one another”, you are supposed to hate and reject “sin”. And Christianity – as derived from the Bible – includes the notion that homosexuality is a “sin”. Of course, you may subscribe to a feel-good version of “Christianity” that has virtually nothing to do with the Bible, but it isn’t intellectually honest.
Mike in MO
The activist homosexual agenda, the erroneous belief in giving legal equivalency to homosexual practice and calling for marriage “equality” and the alleged “right” to abortion are not now, nor will they ever be compatible with the clear teaching of the Catholic Church which confirms the truth revealed within the Natural Law.
First of all, that is ONE sentence. Whew! secondly, who said anything about abortion? Do they just throw that in to remind people that they’re supposed to be against abortion too?
Cedric
Well, technically Christianity is simply following the teachings of Jesus. Since Jesus never actually mentioned anything about homosexuality, as we know, Christianity is not inherently homophobic. Christians simply follow the word of the bible because there isn’t much documentation on what Jesus actually said and taught.
David
Eugene
Just how much time do you spend nattering about things you know next to nothing about?
“Even when you “love one another”, you are supposed to hate and reject “sin”.”
The definition of sin is derived from ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ – and anything, including prejudice against GLBTQ people, that violates ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ is sin, while anything that does not, like love-making between two people of the same gender, is not sin.
“And Christianity – as derived from the Bible – includes the notion that homosexuality is a “sin”.”
No, that is an intellectually dishonest statement. Some Christian theology – a very different thing – for some people includes the notion that homosexuality is sin, however, Jesus Christ – Christ by the way is the source of the term Christian – was silent on homosexuality, and very vocal on injustice.
“Of course, you may subscribe to a feel-good version of “Christianity” that has virtually nothing to do with the Bible, but it isn’t intellectually honest.”
Of course, your dismissal of careful and thoughtful analysis of the relevant texts as ‘subscribe to a feel-good version’ is itself intellectual dishonesty. The intellectually honest thing to do, Eugene, is to acknowledge, among other things:
the core of Christian theology as it defines behavior is social justice
the handful of texts used to create ‘homosexuality is sin’ are subject to translation error, taken out of context, and interpreted without logic or reason
other Biblical texts refute ‘homosexuality is sin’ in principle, and refute specific elements of the fundamentalist interpretation
any ‘feel good’ focus in Christianity is derived from the Bible
By perpetuating anti-gay theology so you can perpetuate anti-Christian hate, you perpetuate homophobia as well.
Andrew
@ Michael vdB: You said:“Christianity, in itself, is not an inherently homophobic religion because Jesus taught everyone to love one another regardless of circumstances.”
Christianity teaches that homosexuals are wrong, sinful and deviant. When are Christians going to stop teaching that belief? That’s ALL that matters.
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
I met Mary and she’s No Virgin!
David
Andrew
“Christianity teaches that homosexuals are wrong, sinful and deviant. When are Christians going to stop teaching that belief? That’s ALL that matters.”
No. Some people who call themselves Christians teach and believe that bias, others do not. Many Christians reject ‘homosexuality is sin’.
Christianity does teach that lying is wrong and you obviously ignore that, so why your double standard?
Andrew
@ David You can lie repeatedly, but it will not work. Those of us that “think” and actually look for evidence know better. Christians believe and teach that homosexuals are wrong. Dave White wrote this in the Advocate a few days ago:
” It’s a hellish enough world out there for a lot of homo teens trapped in cartoonishly superstitious, scare-the-holy-fucking-shit-out-of-you churches (i.e., pretty much all of them, with few exceptions) where the fear of Satan is pounded into their heads. “
If you wish to continue to profess that some Christians have rejected the belief that we are wrong – bring some evidence. Thinking people know better.
Stop suggesting that Christians have not branded homosexuals as wrong, sinful and deviant. That’s just insane. No other institution or group or club or profession or anything else has made homosexuals wrong – just religion.
Instead of denying it – try apologizing. Religion pays you and I understand that. That allows you to put religion before our equality. That’s why we should ignore you. You are supporting religion, not us.
Josh
@ David No shit dude. You are full of it. Stop lying to protect your job. I’m young and I have studied religion as best I can. I do know this – Christians believe we are wrong. I haven’t found any that don’t. Any that are willing to say so. So, don’t give us anymore of your “Christian Salvation” bullshit. Put up, or shut up.
Christians make us wrong. That better stop.
@ Me
David seems to be a weasel. Christian weasel?
dontblamemeivotedforhillary
The Bible is a Work of Fiction (like the Secret but smelling more like mothballs!)
-GOD- (Yes, it’s me the Almighty blogging on a Queer website cuz the World has No Problems…)
BTW – Mary, not really a Virgin! Was better for Sweeps (middle ages!)
B
Josh wrote, “I’m young and I have studied religion as best I can. I do know this – Christians believe we are wrong. I haven’t found any that don’t.” At least your age might explain your bad manners.
Maybe you should study a lot more before chiming in – David was
right when he claimed that beliefs vary, with some seeing no problem with being gay and others thinking it is the end of the world. Perhaps when you get older, you’ll have more real life experience. You might even get to go the Castro Street Fair, which included a Christian group in a booth with a sign that said, “Christan + Gay = OK”, located about 100 feet from the dildo ring toss provided by the Public Health Department and right next to the gay(?) Buddhists.
B
Regarding, ‘”When I saw the story last week out of Berkeley, CA and I read the words “Queering the Rosary” I immediately felt my blood begin to boil.’ … now that is really funny! It’s Berkeley, aka Beserkeley and The People’s Republic of Berkeley.
This is the California city that first decreed that you cannot be a pet’s owner, but rather its guardian.
Every so often they do something that is really loony. That’s because they have an engaged and creative citizenry that generates a lot of ideas, and when you do that, you nearly always come up with a few that seem a bit over the top in retrospect. With everything else that goes on there, this “issue” wouldn’t make the back pages of the Bay Guardian (the back page itself typically being filled with people offering various “personal” services).
@ Me
@ B
You’re a weasel, too.
A christian weasel.
You are not “smart,” you are infected.
It’s pathetic.
Andrew
Some people tell the truth;
“Supreme Court Rejects Conn. Abuse Case, Calif. Property Fight
Monday October 5, 2009
WASHINGTON (RNS) The Supreme Court announced Monday (Oct. 5) that it will not intervene in two prominent church-state cases, one involving a Catholic diocese in Connecticut and the other a former Episcopal parish in California.
The Diocese of Bridgeport, Conn. has fought since 2002 to block the release of more than 12,000 pages of depositions and court records related to sexually abusive clergy. Four newspapers sued for access to the documents, which Connecticut courts have agreed should be open to the public.
The diocese had specifically petitioned Justice Antonin Scalia, a Catholic, to keep the documents closed until the high court had heard its appeal on the constitutionality of the release order. That appeal is still pending, but legal analysts say it now appears unlikely that the Supreme Court will take it up.
The diocese said the court order poses a risk to all churches’ First Amendment rights and that “the content of the sealed documents soon to be released has already been extensively reported on.”
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops backed the Bridgeport diocese, saying that “we must remain vigilant against the risk that court-enforced avenues for the legitimate disclosure of documents are not abused…”
The Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, however, said the “records will help parishioners and the public learn who helped to conceal clergy sex crimes, and which of those wrongdoers are still in positions of power.”
Separately, the Supreme Court also declined to hear an appeal from St. James Anglican Church, which split from the Episcopal Church in 2004 after an openly gay man was elected bishop of New Hampshire.
The Episcopal Church argues that local churches may leave, but under denominational laws they may not take church property with them. Last January, California’s Supreme Court ruled that St. James is bound by those church laws.
Representatives for St. James said they will continue their legal fight in the California courts. Similar proceedings between conservative dissidents and the Episcopal Church are ongoing in several more states.”
By Daniel Burke
Copyright 2009 Religion News Service. All rights reserved. No part of this transmission may be distributed or reproduced without written permission.
Josh
B is short for B.S.
B
Interesting that “Me” and “Josh” both resort to infantile name calling. Are they the same individuals? Both seem to go nonlinear when they are confronted with any true statement that does not match their beliefs – just like some fundamentalists.
dfrw
I see people are still wasting time and energy on religious nonsense.
terrwill
Want to end 99.99% of all wars, battles, persecution, and discrimination in the world?? Eliminate organized religion……….
Fitz
Even when people don’t have religious nonsense, they make up other reasons to be cruel to each other. Face it, our genetic heritage is that we come from the toughest, most manipulative, and most productive and cut-throat of our tribes.
Janie
I am a straight, non-denominational Christian who left the Catholic Church several years ago. I am strongly influenced by liberation theology, but cannot in good conscience belong to the Catholic Church. The Church’s misogyny, homophobia, pedophile coddling, and all the right-wing junta funding, money laundering and Mafia-associated hijinks of the Vatican Bank are entirely opposed to Jesus’ message. (Note: I am not a Biblical inerrantist. I agree with Albert Schweitzer and several other scholars that the Gospels and the letters of Paul are not entirely compatible. As Paul’s letters, which may or may not have been written by him, were intended as messages to specific churches and not as dogma, I don’t feel I have to agree with everything in them.) Why I remain a Christian is my business and I do not have to explain it or justify it to you.
I support the separation of Church and State, GLBT rights, same-sex marriage and women’s rights. That said, I find it hilarious when atheists take it upon themselves to define what a real Christian is. It seems no one is more hardcore about Biblical inerrancy and fundamentalism than an atheist like Eugene.
You can say and believe what you like about religion. Beyond that, I stay out of your business, and you can stay out of mine. Oh, and before anyone insinuates that since I’m a Christian, that I am responsible for the Fred Phelpses and other crazies, let me say this: gay men are overrepresented in both Hollywood and the fashion industry. Both industries pump out an endless supply of sexism, body fascism, racism, heartless materialism and other garbage. The average gay man is not personally responsible for that, and I am not personally responsible for those that twist the Gospel to suit their own worldly ambitions.
rudy
Brava.
I would add these people do not represent atheists.
Can you imagine Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens endlessly parroting an ill-thought out mantra like “Religion made us wrong?”
The idea of creating a statement regarding belief for OTHER people to sign would never be supported by American Atheists or any Freethought organization that I know.
Raycol
While the Bible does prohibit sex between men (homosexuality), it can nevertheless be shown that the prohibition does not apply today when the sexual activity causes no harm. Also, the prohibition does not apply today because it applied only to the ancient Israelite and Greco-Roman cultures. The Bible criticizes, but does not prohibit, sex between women. Full reasons for these conclusions are given on the “Gay and Christian” website (www.gaysandslaves.com).
Josh
From the Vatican:
Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts “as a serious depravity… (cf. Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10). This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”.(5) This same moral judgment is found in many Christian writers of the first centuries(6) and is unanimously accepted by Catholic Tradition.
Nonetheless, according to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided”.(7) They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity.(8) The homosexual inclination is however “objectively disordered”(9) and homosexual practices are “sins gravely contrary to chastity”.(10)
If you want to read the rest: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
But, it’s really boring.
B
Josh wrote, “From the Vatican: Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts as a serious depravity… (cf. Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10).” Except some other Christian sects don’t interpret those passages that way (Paul’s wording in the original Greek was rather vague and nobody can figure out what he really meant with any degree of certainty). You can easily find expert opinions from Biblical scholars that the meaning of these passages is not clear. Some of the words seem to be ones Paul coined. Maybe he wanted to be vague for political reasons, but we just don’t know.
That the Vatican holds homophobic opinions is well known. Other
Christian sects ignore the Vatican’s pronouncements. Why can’t you guys just admit the truth – that there is a range of opinion?
schlukitz
@ Cam:
And then there was the Fifth Ecumenical Council…..
They didn’t like the concept of reincarnation because they felt it would give an opportunity for people in this life to be bad and then make up for it by being good in another life, so all biblical references to reincarnation were expunged.
rudy
No. 30 · schlukitz
This looked like fun subject, but I couldn’t find any corroborating evidence.
There is an official Catholic denial, however, blaming the controcersy on – guess who…
http://www.catholic.com/library/Reincarnation.asp
schlukitz
@ Rudy.
Poor Shirley. 🙁
But then, she too was pretty “far out on a limb”…just like the Catholic Church. LOL
Toward the end of her writings (some five books she penned, I believe), she got pretty wacky herself.
As Johnny Carson said of her when she appeared on his show “She’s gone around the bend.”
Vegan!
@ B and others
I can see your point of view but:
Many queers in America today have been hurt by religion–disowned by families because of religion, lost friends because of religion, lost jobs because of religion, etcetera.
It’s no surprise that some are going to claim that there are very few or no queer-affirming Christians.
As for this queer rosary, if it heals rifts between religion and the GLBT community, what’s the big deal? Healing is just what many people need!
Michael
I’m gay, and my primary relationship is with Jesus, it’s mainly a mystical one. I was brought up in the Catholic church but after a few years in other churches came back. I go to a Catholic church and study theology at a Catholic University. Why? because I believe Jesus loves me and wants me there. I want to understand more about my God and church.
What I see in a lot of gay/christian debates is a lack of asking the question “WHY do you believe what you believe?” It is a lack of wanting to understand each other. I’m not saying it will change minds but at least it will help people comprehend each other.
There’s a lot of error in understanding in many people’s minds around these issues, in both christian and gay camps. I’ve heard ridiculous comments from many people totally misunderstanding each other. This inevitably leads to mud slinging and fear. AND to fighting, anger and and ugly comments that hurt each other and further raise fear.
I see from the comments that some guys here have made errors in what the Catholic church teaches. There seems to be a total lack of understanding, about WHY the Catholic church teaches what they teach.
Catholics use reason and revelation to form their doctrine or teachings. Reason is philosophy ,especially natural law and the revelation is in the bible, especially in Jesus. So to debate the bible is not the whole of it. You need to debate natural law as well. The latter is a much harder thing to debate.
If you want to know the teaching on homosexuality go to http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
Luckily my experience is not one of being ‘hated’ by the church, many know I’m gay and they don’t hunt me down and persecute me. My family also are intelligent loving people. I know for some guys this isn’t the case and they are treated poorly. Let me say, sorry if that has happened to you and I hope you find love.
What’s it like being me? well on one side I have extreme attitudes hammering my church and on the other extreme attitudes hammering me and my friends. In the middle I have the man I love guiding me and loving me intently. Jesus. That’s why I stay where I am.