Last month, a gay couple seeking a marriage license in Kentucky’s Rowan County went up against Christian soldier/county clerk Kim Davis. It didn’t go so well.
“It was something I had prayed and fasted over,” Davis said later under oath. “It wasn’t a spur of the moment decision.”
Related: Christian Government Clerk Hijacks The Law, And It’s All Caught On Tape
David Vincent Moore and his fiancé returned this month with the knowledge that U.S. District Judge David Bunning wrote that Davis “is refusing to recognize the legal force of U.S. Supreme Court jurisprudence in performing her duties” and her “religious convictions cannot excuse her from performing the duties that she took an oath to perform as Rowan County Clerk.”
How about we take this to the next level?
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Related: Another Uppity Texas County Clerk Is Denying A Gay Couple Their Marriage License
Davis was absent when they returned — the official story is she’s on vacation. But that didn’t stop her from blocking the couple as they again attempted to exercise their legal rights.
A deputy clerk can be heard citing Davis’ decision to go against the federal judge’s order, and in the end they’re met with that dreaded line “there’s nothing that can be done.”
“People are cruel, and this is wrong, and that’s how it is,” Moore says to news cameras before exiting the building.
Watch below:
mlbumiller
well, then if she cannot fully do her job, then she needs to resign her position. you do not get to pick and choose which laws to abide by because of your religion.
if she is so concern about her faith, she really needs to quit that job, because the bible states a woman cannot hold power over a man. o
John Schwartz
So sad!!!! I would take my gay money and move the hell away from there!!! A government worker cannot give customer service due to her religious beliefs! It is call separation of church and state, which means no religion can run the U.S. Government at any level! If you want a government ran by religion live in Iraq or Afghanistan!!!
Dakotahgeo
The Federal government needs to step in and arrest every official that does not cooperate and throw them in jail! This is the only way these christians will learn… do your job or resign!
Jay A. Scaramazzo
Alan C Miller
When you are employed by the government your personal beliefs do not have any bearing whatsoever in doing your damn job.
Sidney Davies
We need to just fire these assholes. They don’t deserve a damn job.
Kevin J Desmond
Ok now it’s time to sue that county and state and make sure all those involved with dening them a marriage license be fired !!!
Ron Jackson
Just sue dudes. You will see immediate results.
Desert Boy
The heffa never heard of the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution. Issue the marriage license or the couple should bring a killer lawsuit.
Victor Incerti
How does this woman get away with this. It is her job to follow the law and issue licences!!!!!!! HER personal beliefs have no business guiding her work. If so, she should resign, be disciplined or be fired!
JJ24
Time to say fuck it and sue the shit out of the office, and Mrs. Davis personally who I might add has been married 3-4 times(read it on the huff). Pretty simply do your fucking job, if you can’t set aside your personally beliefs quit.
AtticusBennett
she fasted? REALLY? she looks like she’s never missed a meal.
Jerry Kelley
When is that bitch in Kentucky going to be fired?
Jeff Phillips
in most places if you don’t do your job, they fire you. I don’t get to pick and choose which files I work on.
Brian JC Kneeland
The person denying them the license is in contempt of court – and has refused to do their job. So – they effectively resigned the position!
scotshot
Where is their attorney? The second Davis illegally denied them a license is the second they should have retained counsel. I imagine Rowan County will issue them their license when the couple file a multi million dollar lawsuit against it. The county will have a “come to Jesus” moment if you will.
Douglas Pickney
When will they go in with ACLU. They live for these things. Hang their asses out go dry!!
Bob Craig
Great good to see somebody some sense & doing the right thing MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A MAN & WOMAN FULL STOP.
youarekiddingme
I believe there are a total of 4 couple that are being represented by the ACLU in their lawsuit against the county and Davis in particular (according to ACLU.com article). This couple can, of course, seek private counsel (it appears not as yet), but as Douglas Pickney said, they haven’t gotten in on the suit with the ACLU and the other 4 couples…Interesting mess in Kentuxky for sure! Bunch of stubborn biggots.
The reason Davis hasn’t been fired yet is because the county actually SUPPORTS her in her actions. Why fire someone who is doing your bidding? That’s why she is being represented by counsel paid for by the county.
AJ Legault
Bravo to this couple! Thank You for standing for your Rights!
Stu Hipwell
Unbelievable….
Roy Lewis
I would be owning that county! It is rural Kentucky—you know they don’t have enough money to fight a lawsuit. Make them go bankrupt or have to raise taxes so high.
BigG
They all need to be arrested. They think religion trumps law and that’s not how our world works. I really hope they make an example out of them. Defying a federal judge just shows how insane those people are.
Faye Denton
Simply wrong to deny them.
M J Martinez Crogan
Shoot the kunt
Billy Budd
They must be punished according to the law. She must lose her job.
Kangol
She’s violating the law, so arrest her and have someone who is capable of doing the job do it. Why coddle her? If she were brown-skinned they drag her out of there without a second thought.
Rebecca Palmer
Haven’t they got the memo yet, that they can no longer discriminate gay marriage? The idiots…
Robert Becker
The worst part is that she is not allowing her staff to issue licenses, She is forcing others to break the law because of her “Religious Convictions” It’s time for a “Legal Conviction”
GG
Um, her so-called “deeply-held religious conviction” doesn’t explain her refusal to issue marriage licenses to STRAIGHT couples, which she is apparently also doing.
Note to Davis: Your thinly veiled attempt to circumvent the law by also denying straight couples doesn’t make your actions ‘right,’ it makes you doubly wrong.
Transiteer
You’re Fired. Can’t/won’t/not available to do your job? You’re fired. Go clean the toilets at the church. Plenty of holy shit there to keep her busy.
Giancarlo85
You have a government job and took an oath. Religious views are irrelevant. She is in contempt of court and her and any staff that refuses should be immediately fined and arrested. Time to send in federal agents.
And funny she has been divorced so many times… The bible is against divorce.
Louis
I am so tired of this keep your beliefs in your own homes and your own churches stop trying to infringe on others rights using your beliefs as an excuse to do so.
This woman should be fired plain and simple.
Louis
Fire the man and woman in this video also.
They act like they are enjoying this.
So many nasty Christians in this world .
They make their God so proud.
Gee Rosato
Fire them or burn the court house
to the ground
Michael Bonham
Brad Parr did you see this??
Bad Ass Biker
@Dakotahgeo: Wish I could upvote you for that. You are so right!
TampaBayTed
I’ve fasted; I’ve prayed and God told me it was alright to issue marriage licenses to straight and gay couples. Is her God talking out of both sides of the divine mouth? Guess she forgot about the render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s that came straight from Jesus lips.
mezzacanadese
Why should it be up to a prejudiced person to decide whether or not a couple can get married?
Derek Williams
A marriage registry office is not a church, nor is it a mosque, a temple or a synagogue.
Someone who works in a supermarket may personally disapprove of people smoking, but they won’t keep their job very long if they refuse to sell cigarettes. If they feel that selling cigarettes is morally wrong, then they should should find another job. Someone who walks into a supermarket doesn’t ask the checkout operator whether they morally approve of people smoking or not, and they won’t force the checkout operator to take up smoking themselves.
This multiple divorcee Christian County Clerk devoutly believes that men should not marry men and women should not marry women, but there is nothing about performing the ceremony for a lesbian or gay couple that compels her to change that belief, because after she has performed the civil ceremony, her belief is exactly the same as it was before it was performed. What’s more, no-one is compelling her to get married to a person of the same sex herself, just because the couple she provided the service to is of the same sex. All she has to do to avoid breaking the rules of her religion is not to get married to the same sex herself. No harm comes to the clerk, even though she morally disapproves of LGBT people getting married. Nor is she being asked to promote same sex marriage or personally approve of it, since she is merely being asked to provide a LEGAL civil marriage certificate. The gay couple will get married, with or without the clerk’s approval, even if they have to drive to another part of town – provided of course that they can find a county clerk in the Bible Belt town who will deal fairly with LGBT people.
If she thinks she is “facilitating sin” by filling out a marriage certificate for a same sex couple, then so too is she facilitating sin when she provides one for a mixed race couple, or a couple where one or both were previously divorced or bereaved, since divorce, miscegenation, marriage after bereavement are all damned by God as most serious sins in the Bible, as they are in the majority of holy books of other religions. Unless she also refuses to marry all these other categories of sinners too, then she is guilty of hypocrisy, which by the way, is a sin condemned by none other than Jesus Christ himself as the most serious of sins after divorce, which he likened to adultery, itself a sin condemned in the Ten Commandments and throughout both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Jesus on the other hand never spoke against gay people or same sex relationships, and nor do the Ten Commandments.
Now let’s look at it from the point of view of the lesbian or gay couple. Sure, they can hunt through the Bible Belt town until they find a judge who will marry an LGBT couple, just as a couple, one or both of whom have been previously divorced or bereaved can hunt through the town looking for a county clerk willing to conduct a civil marriage for recently divorced or bereaved people, just as an interracial couple can hunt through the town until they find a clerk who approves of mixed-race marriages, all of which are banned in the Bible. But why on Earth should they have to? We can extend this further to a Muslim county clerk who could refuse to marry a woman without a burka or who drove a car to the registry office, or who has an intact clitoris, and of course he would refuse to serve gay people, Jews and atheists too.
This is clearly a clash of civil rights, that are both constitutionally protected – the right to your religious belief, and your right to equal treatment before the law.
In her defence, it would have been assumed at the time she applied for the job that the couples who apply would be man and woman. Had her employer told her that she would be required to marry same sex couples, then it is surely obvious that she would not have even applied for it in the first place. That is a significant and material change in how she sees the job as being one that originally comported with her religious beliefs changing into one that no longer does. That is not the same as asking someone to learn new software or how to operate a computer, because that doesn’t conflict with religious belief.
I am therefore not in favour of unduly harsh treatment, thereby creating a martyr around whom a cause can gather. Rather than send her out seething with resentment on to the dole queue, or see her getting yet another GoFundMe campaign that makes yet another bible-basher into an overnight millionnaire celebrity, I would prefer to see her employer revoke her right to issue marriage licences, and assign her to other duties that have nothing to do with marriage. Then she can resign if she wants to and she will not find her bigotry rewarded by spectacular donation as happened with the Memories Pizzeria, the Sweet Cakes Bakery and Stuzman the florist, each of whom were enriched by the deep pockets of the religious right to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
John
She will end up “retired” (not fired, as she should be). What I don’t understand IF she is/was on vacation whoever was in charge could have issued the license.
Her duty is to “uphold the Constitution”… I be she has enjoyed getting the benefits of a gov’t worker as long as it suited her.
bryanfujimoto
This is blatant disobedience of a court order and a basic function of their job. If they cannot or will not perform the basic functions of their job they need to be removed from office, fired, and replaced immediately. Im sure that they took a vow when sworn into office, and this would be breaking that vow.
BriBri
Send loads of email: [email protected]
BlogShag
Get married elsewhere and sue those bastards
[email protected]
Let’s all make sure we don’t make the lawyers richer, we can run this through Civil Rights who sometimes provides a lawyer, and since this is total BS make them pay and loose their jobs we PAY these assholes to do their job. Hit them with everything you can.
BlogShag
And whatever people, now y’all know what it’s like- welcome to the “free” USA which didn’t get rid of Jim Crow laws till the late 1960’s
Dave084
I want to know why this bitch is not in jail yet for contempt of court.
Dan Steele
Lawsuit
TampaBayTed
@Derek Williams: Excellent commentary.
gskorich
I’m not sure what the problem is? get a lawyer, sue the clear and go to the next county and get a license.
Robert Rupp
So at what point does this woman get fired
sweetbrandigirl2004
What I don’t understand is WHY isn’t she being arrested ? She’s breaming the law if you or I break the law we either get a ticket or go to jail so WHY doesn’t the governmer called in the police to just arrest her and remove her from the office ?
scotshot
@Derek Williams:
Ms. Davis signed an oath of office upon taking office that stated in part: “I will not knowingly or willingly commit any
malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality.
Malfeasance legally unjustified, harmful, or contrary to law, or wrongdoing.
Ms. Davis is not doing the job she was elected to. I imagine that she’ll retire with a full pension and go back to being the
woman who’s best known for not being able to keep a man. Lawsuits will be filed and they should win.
This whole discussion is moot as the SCOTUS has ruled on gay marriage and it is the Constitution law of the land. Period.
aequalitasTN
You know, I realize that this bigot cannot be fired, since she elected, but we have a system in place for that too. This has all happened before starting 60 years ago in the south, and the federal courts had to step in and run the show.
So, here it is: don’t jail her or fine her personally that will make her the martyr she wants to be. The judge needs to find her in contempt, but fine the COUNTY, as she is acting in an official capacity. Let’s see how long the voters tolerate her religious bigotry draining their tax dollars. Simultaneously, issue a writ of execution to the United States Marshall for the Eastern District of Kentucky orders them to serve and ensure the execution of the federal injunction. Next, if that doesn’t work, issue a STRUCTURAL injunction against the Rowan County clerk placing it under the direct supervision of the court. So, other words, while they cannot remove her from office, everyone in her office would then report to the court, and if her employees failed to follow orders of their new boss, namely the US district court, they could be fired and new employees hired to replace them. Finally, if that doesn’t work, plaintiffs should add the Commonwealth of KY, governor, secretary of state and attorney general to the suit, and yes, while I realize they are not the ones at fault here and are actually ordering the clerk to do her job, the county is merely a politcal subdivision of the Commonwealth for which it is ultimately responsible. The point is that you could then find each in contempt of court and begin draining the Commonwealth of KY’s coffers. Let’s see how long it takes the legislature to impeach her then.
The point of all of this is that we do not need to make these people the martyrs that they obviously want to become by fining them into destitution or jailing them for what they will ultimately claim is an infringement of their “religious liberty.” While intelligent people know that is not true, the GOP spin machine, will turn it so that the majority believe it. On the other hand, if you attack the money and power of the county and the state, the politicians and the PEOPLE will ultimately turn against here and kick her out of office. If you turn the majority against her, there is no amount of spin that is going to convince them that she is in the right.
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams: I agree with most of what you said in your statement…except the part where you said, …”in her defense…”. She did, as a county clerk, take an oath of office. As an oath of office she swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States, the laws of the State of Kentucky and the laws of the County in which she was appointed Clerk. No wiggle room. If she can’t uphold that oath, then she simply needs to step down. Period. When you take an oath, is your solumn word and promise. If you do not have your word, you have nothing as a person.
Her only possible “way out” was to allow her deputy clerks to issue the licenses instead of her physically doing it herself. As a resident in a state where gay marriage was just passed because of SCOTUS I can tell you that there is NO WHERE on the marriage license that REQUIRES the signature of the clerk themselves. The signature of the deputy clerk is just as official.
This woman is clearly a bigot who is using HER RELIGION to block same-sex couples from marrying in that county. In that video it was made clear that there was at least one other clerk who was willing to issue the marriage license but was prohibited by that Clerk!
Derek Williams
@aequalitasTN:
@youarekiddingme:
Well yes, but the Constitution also protects her religious belief – that’s why I still say it’s a clash of rights, the one being to believe in whatever religion you like, conflicting with the right to equal protection and all that connotes. When the County Clerk took her oath it never entered her mind that that one day marriage would be extended to include same sex couples. Rightly or wrongly, that is a change in her terms of employment.
It doesn’t follow that just because someone is religious, or even a hypocrite, that they’re a nasty piece of work who must be jailed, fired, spat at, treated with derision and contempt, whatever. If so, then 80% of America must be so treated. For example, my family background was once mostly religious yet none of them would behave inhumanely, even if they believed that being gay was a sin, which frankly, they all did at one time before they knew better. It may be that this particular woman is the nicest of homespun folk who would do anything for you, from darning your socks to making you rabbit pie. It doesn’t make us look good to be calling her “bitch” and other unseemly invective, on the contrary, it turns the public’s attention away from her bigotry and in the direction of our nastiness.
I think the “way out” is for her to be stripped of the right to issue marriage licences and for her to be assigned other duties. Firing her is EXACTLY what she wants – so she can become a poster girl martyr for the religious right, who will promptly dig deeply into their very deep pockets and enrich her with yet another GoFundMe campaign.
If issuing licences is a devolvable function, e.g. to the Deputy but they refuse too, then they too should be stripped of that right. If it turns out no-one in the entire county office will sign them, then the governing body, presumably the state government, has to step in and stand them down pending a fresh election. If the state government refuses, then the federal government has to. Then we hit a big snag. A Republican Congress and a Republican state government. What are the chances?
jaack
Since The US Supreme Court ruled that same-sex marriages are legal in ALL states, the county officials empowered by state and county constitutions empower such persons to issue marriage licenses & carryout to all the duties of the County Clerk. There is no religious exemption for refusing to carry out the duties of the Rowan County Clerk’s Office and the Clerk is a member of the government of the County Of Rowan.
To contact the ROWAN COUNTY CLERK’S OFFICE go to
wwww.rowancountyclerk.com/contact-us/ and a dialog box will come up. Let the CLERK know your opinion on here illegal actions and contempt of US District Court BY HER conduct or denial of contract between 2 persons in marriage with the State Of Kentucky. Maybe you should too.
I am sending my comments to Ms. Kim Davis, County Clerk. Being a member of the Rowan County government, the other elected county officials have tried to distance themselves legally from the Clerk. But this is legally impossible. Contempt of federal court carries a high price. If a government officials moral standards forbid them from carrying out their legal duties then resign the position to one who respects the Constitution. I could liken this conduct to a corrections officer who does not believe in Capital Punishment and releases a death row prisoner. Don’t interfere in people’s lives and families just to get you picture on television and 15 minutes of fame on Fox TV with Rush Limbaugh.
jaack
Some of the nicest BIGOTS are people. I wonder why that is? Must be their upbringing and abusive or missing parent perhaps.
mbfmark
If the woman in the photo is the clerk in question, she needs to do a LOT more fasting for sure! And as pointed out, she is apparently on her FOURTH husband, so definitely not a shining example “christian virtue” herself. So what that leaves is that she is a hateful hypocrite and nothing else. Unfortunately, it seems it isn’t as simple as “firing” her because her office is an elected position in Kentucky. The court can find her in contempt and fine or even sentence her to jail, but I’m not sure what legal process would be necessary to remove her from office. I’m sure whatever the outcome, she will indignantly cry “religious persecution” because most of these right wing idiots think their beliefs give them a legal excuse (they would say right) to discrimination. Religion is self delusion and needs to be called out as such!
Derek Williams
Insulting a religious woman who is someone else’s mother, grandmother, niece, cousin, sister or friend, whom they all probably think the world of, by calling her “this bitch”, won’t win the hearts and minds of the general population away from her side and on to ours the way some commenters today seem to believe it will. Nor will calling for her to be fired. Being fired will serve only to turn her into a martyr destined to become an overnight crowdfunded millionaire, thanks to the deep pockets of the religious right. If it is an elected position, let the people fire her at the next local elections. They will be more likely to do so if she isn’t able to portray herself as the victim. Meanwhile, someone else in the office apart from her should be assigned the responsibility of issuing marriage licences to ALL couples, including same sex couples. She should be given other duties until this is all sorted out.
Arguing against her bigoted beliefs, hypocritical positions, actions, double standards etc is one thing, but arguing against the person gets us nowhere. Quite the opposite.
We have to think smarter and stick strictly to the issues.
mdhess
It’s about time to sue the county for harm isn’t it?
berdachenyc
So why havent these clerks been fired?
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams:
I am not disagreeing with the 2nd part of your post (as I said previously).
As to the first part..”…the constitution protects religious belief…”, uh, no. You are completely incorrect sir. You need to read the excercepts directly quoted below from the 1st Amendment.
“Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” (from the Constitution of the United States).
She is allowed to exercise her religious belief. Congress has passed no law prohibiting it. She VOLUNTARILY took a JOB that she says conflicts with her religion. Simply resign. Separation of church and state (see below). Church cannot rule the interworkings of the government.
Separation of Church and State (from Wikipedia): “Separation of church and state” (sometimes “wall of separation between church and state”) is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Since the First Amendment clearly places the restrictions solely on the state, some argue a more correct phrase would be the “separation of state FROM church”. Either way, the “separation” phrase has since been repeatedly used by the Supreme Court of the United States.”
As to your argument about, …”When the county clerk took her oath it never entered her mind that one day marriage would me extended to include same sex couples…” It never entered my mind when I took the job at McDonald’s when I was 16 that I would one day have to clean out grease traps because the Maintence Man quit either…
Again she took an oath to uphold the laws of the US, the State and the County.
If a policeman doesn’t like a new law that’s passed can he simply ignore it as well?
Can you see the slippery slope that your argument takes you? They both swore an oath to uphold the laws of the US, State…
Derek Williams
An employment contract is binding on both parties, and cannot unilaterally be amended without the consent of the other party. Performing same sex marriages could be deemed a change in the terms of employment, depending on the wording or reasonable understanding of the terms of the original contract.
I agree religious belief is not itself constitutionally protected, but your right to hold a religious belief, or not to hold one, certainly is. “Cleaning out grease traps at McDonalds” isn’t a religious belief, unless you can name a religion that says it is. A better analogy would be a Catholic surgeon hired to perform prenatal surgery being later asked to perform abortions. Abortion is against Catholic belief, and if it wasn’t in the surgeon’s original job description, do you likewise argue that he should be forced to perform abortions if the hospital changes its policy and terms of employment?
At the time she took the job, the terms of employment including issuing marriages licences did not conflict with her religious belief, because it did not involve same sex marriage. At that time there was no SCOTUS decision affirming that same sex marriage was a constitutionally protected right, but there were a majority of states with laws saying that it was not, indeed, we had DOMA federally underpinning that.
Then came the SCOTUS decision declaring all the states’ constitutional amendments banning same sex marriage themselves to be unconstitutional, thus meaning that the terms of her employment were altered ‘from afar’, i.e. whereas when she took on the job, her duties did not conflict with her belief, after the narrow (but still binding) SCOTUS decision affirming same sex marriage to be a constitutionally protected right, her duties suddenly DID conflict with her religious belief, at least insofar as marrying same sex couples was concerned, hypocrisy or no hypocrisy.
If the SCOTUS decision had been in place already, then she would never have applied for the job, because she would have known in advance that her duties would include issuing marriage certificates for same sex couples. This is a change in the law that has come into conflict with her religious beliefs, so this is not her fault. She should be assigned other duties, or resign, but she should not be fired. Firing her will only create a martyr who will become an overnight millionaire celebrity enriched by crowdfunding as we have seen with the pizzeria, the florist and the bakery.
So far as I have become aware, her position is an elected one anyway, so the only way she can be fired is by the electorate.
Douglas Pickney
Mr.Craig the law says different. You don’t have to agree but if you have a government job you better obey the law.
silveroracle
once again religion rears its ugly head!
Wes Danforth
Fire them. Sue them! Jail them.
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams:
Stop bringing up the millionaire/martyr BS because it’s NOT part of my debate with you.
You AGAIN missed the entirety of what I said so I’ll try once again to highlight:
If a law is passed that a cop has a RELIGIOUS objection to (that was passed after his oath and employment contract) does he have the right to refuse to enforce the laws of the state/county as well (based on his religious objection) No…resign.
Remember we are not talking about a simple employment contract. We are talking about a CIVIL SERVANT/GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE who has to abide by the LAW. If the law changes, they MUST abide by it.
How do I know about Civil Service Employment Contracts you ask? I worked as a civil service employee and the civil service commission that governs them. In fact, their contract has SPECIFIC wording that indicates “…and other duties as may be assigned by your supervisor…” That phrase is specifically designed to include duties within their scope of work (i.e. a secretary wouldn’t be assigned as a firefighter, etc).
No disrespect, but you may know about laws regarding civilian jobs…Trust me. Government jobs are entirely different. Look at the implications that could occur with the military as well. Just mind-blowing.
The woman is WRONG. Period. Step aside. Let the people (the one in particular who said she would do it) issue the licenses.
Derek Williams
Does a government owned hospital have the right to force a Catholic surgeon to perform abortions and to sack him if he refuses?
Clark35
Can’t they just go to a different place to get married? That guy needs a better haircut than his silly bowl cut. LMAO
Daniel-Reader
Just use her phone records, cable bill, electric bill, and credit card bills as proof she regularly engages in commerce on the Sabbath to prove she isn’t really upholding Christianity since engaging in commerce on the Sabbath is absolutely forbidden in the bible because it directly violates the Ten Commandments to keep the Sabbath holy to prove her hypocrisy. Under Christianity, hypocrisy disqualifies you from being a Christian since Jesus specifically condemned hypocrites and pharisees as never getting into Heaven. This is the easiest way to demonstrate it is bigotry not faith she is using. You can also use other people as witnesses that she has given marriage certificates to divorced people, to people who’ve had premarital sex, etc. to show she is singling out gay couples and not really following the bible at all. It is very straightforward to prove she is targeting gay people. Discriminating is the anti-thesis of Jesus’ entire life and teachings.
Daniel-Reader
The really interesting question is whether she backs EMTs not giving lifesaving assistance to hypocrites since Jesus specifically condemns hypocrites. Would EMTs have the right to just stand there and poke her with a stick if she suffers a heart attack and needs their assistance? Or is it just her who gets to single out other people for mistreatment using religion as an excuse? None of the people doing this kind of discrimination ever answer questions like that. You get the feeling people who purport to want to use religion to discriminate don’t really think through what they are doing or think they themselves are immune to such mistreatment.
youarekiddingme
@Daniel-Reader:
Well Said!
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams:
There you go again, not addressing the issue…for the 3rd time. Guess you didn’t study debate in school huh?
Let’s see…Surgeons at a government hospitals don’t just “perform abortions”. You don’t go to a government hospital for that (not there there are many left besides the VA anyway). Surgeons in a hospital KNOW that they may have to perform abortions as a matter of fact in a life-saving procedure! (Roe v. Wade). How about doctors refusing to treat YOU because you’re GAY? Just let you die? Sounds fair…again another slippery slope you’re headed up once again. These are issues on STANDING LAW, not the change in law that we’re debating.
Get back to the ISSUE which is the obligation of a civil servant to do their job and not allow religion interfere with their oath of office. 1st Amendment/Separation of Church and State…
NO EXCUSE. The woman needs to quit/resign/move on/allow others to issue marriage licenses so she won’t have to. Simple solution. No more argument. No more BS. No more lawsuit. No more sticking up for the biggoted moron!
Derek Williams
“Learn to debate?” How about you learn to READ?
I never proffered any of the straw man positions you attribute to me. I never said, nor do I believe that civil servants should not have to obey the law, nor did I say, nor do I believe that a civil servant, or anyone else for that matter, should be entitled to refuse me service because I am gay, nor did I say, nor do I believe that this county clerk should be entitled to refuse marriage licences to same sex couples, nor did I say, nor do I believe that she should not resign. I think she should resign. In fact I clearly said she should be allowed to resign or be stripped of the authority to issue marriage licences, but I do not believe that she should be fired.
Civil servants in the Third Reich also had “the obligation of a civil servant to do their job and not allow religion interfere with their oath of office” so while I agree that civil servants should do their job and not allow religion to interfere with their oath of office, if the constitution to which they have sworn allegiance is changed, or as in this case, clarified in a manner opposite to that in which it had previously been clarified, i.e. pre and post DOMA, so as to conflict with their religious belief then that is tantamount to a conflict with her conscience. Conscientious objectors should be treated humanely and with respect, even if we do not agree with their objection. They should not be fired, and called “bitch” or have nasty comments made about their body weight, but should be reassigned duties or allowed to resign with full entitlements, so someone else who does not have a conscientious objection can take over the newly defined role that their conscience no longer allows them to perform.
Personally, I would rather religion didn’t exist, but wanting something and having it are two different things. A huge number of Americans are religious, and pouring scorn on their religion isn’t going to achieve the victories for the LGBT movement you think it will. There are more productive ways.
Re abortion, I think you’ll find that “performing surgery” is common parlance. Obviously I am not talking about a “life saving procedure”, unless you consider abortion as a means of routine birth control can defined as “life saving”. Anyway, you’ve answered my question by stating that a Catholic cannot remain in his chosen career of a surgeon unless he is willing to perform abortions, for any reason, and that if he refuses, he should be sacked. The rest of the country isn’t so sure as you are, as I easily found when I Googled the following question:
“Can Catholic surgeons be forced to perform abortions?”
I invite you to do likewise.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85:
I don’t have to check my payslips to know that my employers were the New Zealand and Australian (New South Wales state) governments. You can say the opposite till you’re blue in the face but it won’t change this fact. “Working for the government” includes roadsweepers and toilet cleaners, so is a credential that is largely irrelevant to whatever point it is you’re trying to make.
You don’t have to live in a place to study its systems of governance and other infrastructure. Again, your arguments are all ad hominem and couched in immoderate language that make rational discourse impossible.
Baba Booey Fafa Fooey
The guy speaking at the beginning of the video with glasses and blue shirt was very, very feminine. Maybe I was the only one to notice.
Gary Harryman
Bigots gotta bigot.
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams:
In reverse order:
1. It is NOT commonplace for abortions to be done in hospitals in the US. Approximately 90% are performed in clinics. Per a report compiled by the New York times in conjunction with the AMA, of the total number of hospitals approximately 20.3% are state/federal government owned. There is also precedent where Catholic Doctors in a Government hospital DO have to perform abortions read this: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/public-hospitals-that-deliver-babies-must-provide-abortions-even-if-owned-b
2. I NEVER stated that, “…a Catholic cannot remain in his chosen career as a surgeon unless he is willing to perform abortions, for any reason, and that if he refuses, he should be sacked”. I have NEVER said anyone should be FIRED/SACKED. Don’t twist/lie to make your point. I have done nothing but quote your exact words. Don’t LIE about what I have said…
3. Your whole Third Reich argument…agreed. Don’t know where you were going with it again. Never denied that if you disagree with what the government/establishment is doing then definitely don’t be a part of it!! 100% agree again. I think that’s the 4th time I’ve agreed with you on that point! The Third Reich thing sounded impressive I do give you that. Do the job. If you find you can’t then move on and allow others to do it. Whatever move on means is a personal choice. If it means resign, find a different job of equal or lesser pay, transfer and become a different department head with someone else…Hell I don’t care…Just do it.
4. You say that you never “proffered any of the straw man postions that you attribute to me.”
….such as not obey the law…nor that this clerk should be allowed to refuse licenses to same sex couples…
As a direct quote from your first statement: “In her defence, it would have been assumed at the time she applied for the job that the couples who apply would be man and woman. Had her employer told her that she would be required to marry same sex couples, then it is surely obvious that she would not have even applied for it in the first place. That is a significant and material change in how she sees the job as being one that originally comported with her religious beliefs changing into one that no longer does. That is not the same as asking someone to learn new software or how to operate a computer, because that doesn’t conflict with religious belief.”
a. By saying that there was a “significant and material change in how she sees the job as being one that originally comported with her religious beliefs changing into one that no longer does.” This clearly is giving her an “out” of her contract which I was trying to say she clearly as a civil servant, under the law, she doesn’t have.
b. She is being represented by the County Attorney. They are clearly backing her and this illegal and bigoted activity. If this were only about her religious beliefs, you and I both know that they would have had one of the other clerks step in and issue the marriage licenses…simple. Case closed.
So, although we have our differences, I think we both agree that she shouldn’t be fired…it would give her too much of an angle to get in tight with those idiots on the religious right. I think we also agree that the situation could have been easily solved by the county but that they have also chosen to be the real morons. They are making her the “fall guy”.
Derek Williams
I never said that it is commonplace for surgeons to perform abortions in government owned hospitals. Now you’re putting words into my mouth again. Whether it is commonplace or not, it can happen, and it needs to happen only once to prove my point. As for your allegation that I lied about what you said, let me quote YOUR words to you:
“Surgeons in a hospital KNOW that they may have to perform abortions as a matter of fact in a life-saving procedure!”
“Have to perform”? Surely that is compulsion, and surely failure to do so will logically result in dismissal. This is all nitpicking and wanton disingenuousness on your part when my meaning is perfectly obvious. Your clearly intended meaning is that surgeons are required to perform abortions, and that their religious belief to the contrary should butt the hell out. My hastily Googled research says otherwise.
A religious belief about abortion in the mind of the believer is no different to a religious belief about marriage in the mind of the believer, and is no different to the position of a conscientious objector. They’re all matters of individual conscience, and no-one should be forced to act against their conscience under threat – and that includes matters of conscience outwith those of religion. What if her conditions of employment included a requirement that she fire people for being gay? That used to be legal too, you know and still is in most of the world.
The fact this particular county clerk is an outright hypocrite is a red herring. What I do say is that people whose duties of employment change, as was the case for this county clerk, who was previously required to marry only opposite sex partners, and then was overnight required to marry same sex partners following the SCOTUS decision, should not be treated contemptuously but should be given the option to resign with full benefits and entitlements, or take a different position within the same company that doesn’t require them to act against their conscience. If they ARE fired, then they should receive full redundancy requirements, but as I have said over and over, and you have acknowledged, firing this woman will turn her into a crowd funded celebrity and make her into an overnight millionnaire. 100% counterproductive.
I do not want to see ANYONE profiting from hypocrisy and bigotry. It’s happened already three times in a spectacular embarrassment to the LGBT movement, with Sweet Cakes, Memories Pizza and Stuzman the florist. To keep provoking these rivers of cash into being diverted to the citadel of bigotry is wanton idiocy.
Linda Short
She should be fired for non-performance of her duties!
charlieeod74
@Bob Craig: Take your bible and your Jeebus and shove it where the sun don’t shine
Giancarlo85
@Bob Craig: Full stop fucking bullshit. You are nothing.
@Derek Williams: Wow another blithering right wing idiot. How are you comparing same sex marriage to the third reich? You already violated Godwin’s law in this argument therefore your entire argument is essentially invalidated.
They are STATE officials and have an obligation to the citizens who pay taxes. She needs to be immediately fired, or held in contempt and jailed. The Supreme Court is a vital institution in this country, and to compare this to the third reich shows how much of an ignoramus you are.
She is a GOVERNMENT employee and has an obligation to fulfill her duty as a public official in this democratic nation. This is a REPUBLIC, not the third reich. Keep your red herring and strawman arguments to yourself.
Giancarlo85
People like Derek have no respect for the Supreme Court unless they allow the religious fucking bigot assholes to do whatever they want to do.
youarekiddingme
@Giancarlo85:
Those were essentially the points I was attempting to make 3 posts ago! Trying to be more polite, but he didn’t seem to get it…perhaps now he will.
jason smeds
@Derek Williams: Yes, the government should be able to remove that doctor. That doctor has elected to work in a government hospital. As such, he has forfeited some of his rights.
jason smeds
If you work for the government, you have forfeited some of your rights and thus do not have the right to exercise your personal beliefs in your job. You have to abide by the law of the day. The clerks at this registry office need to immediately issue a marriage license to the two men.
Giancarlo85
And I didn’t think treating everyone equally under the law was similar to what Hit*ler did. Seriously, fuck you derek. So sick of your crap. You just type a lot and you don’t make a lot of sense. Go rant in some subway station somewhere.
Goforit
@Kangol: Gee Kangol, I think you must have misunderstood the gist of this story. It is about a gay couple being denied a marriage license yet again. As long as the clerk was supporting her superiors wishes (up to and including the Governor), the color of her skin would not make much difference. This story has nothing to do with race. In fact, no self respecting person of color would come within 20 miles of this backwater cesspool.
Billysees
@AtticusBennett:
” she fasted? REALLY? she looks like she’s never missed a meal. ”
Cute…hahaha…
If fasting and prayer causes one to make such decisions, that kind of activity should be avoided.
Here’s a few simple and easy choices to make when dealing with LGBTs, and everyone else too —
1. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
2. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
3. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
4. Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
Sluggo2007
I’ll bet her husband left her for a man.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85:
I never compared same sex marriage or gay people to the Third Reich. Instead of skim reading and fusing what you want to read into what I actually wrote, kindly learn reading for comprehension, Google “analogy”, and then once you have mastered the art of reading for comprehenseion and understood analogy, read the whole thread through from top to bottom and then quote back to my where I did any such thing.
WEBOne
@youarekiddingme: Actually – the deputy clerk mentioned several times that they are represented by “Liberty counsel” The ersatz law firm created by Jerry Falwell about the same time as he created Liberty “university”
tricky ricky
@Bob Craig: troll. according to the supreme court YOU ARE WRONG.
tricky ricky
@Derek Williams: laws change all the time. she has no excuse for not doing her duties. her religious arguments are specious and disingenuous. she is handing out a bloody form and filing it when it is returned. she is not blessing or approving or participating in weddings in any way shape or form. she should not be able to retire with full benefits. she has only had this job since January and her previous benefits from being an EMPLOYEE OF HER MOTHER are forfeit. this office is a petty political dynasty where all the employees are related. they should all be fired. THEY are violating the constitutional rights of tax paying citizens of the county. they deserve no consideration whatsoever. you are nothing but a concern troll. in all those silly ass cases you mentioned gays in the short term those jerks might have some bucks from some crowd funding website but they will sink into obscurity. they are only heroes to a small select group of people and everyone else sees them for the hate mongering bigots they are. as for your employment contract statement, it is pure and utter bullsh*t. she doesn’t have one. she does not get to negotiate her duties. she is an elected official who took a bloody oath. YOU are the one using specious and disingenuous arguments. you have written a whole lot of absolute bullsh*t. all of your arguments are flawed to the very core. you are wrong wrong wrong.
Derek Williams
@tricky ricky:
@Giancarlo85:
Go back and read the thread from top to bottom. Your comments are so out of kilter, your allegations so absurd and so abusive and couched in such over the top language they appear to be responding to someone else. I never compared gay people to Hitler and the Third Reich. You’re just making that up.
You attack my grammar, but you cite no evidence of my allegedly poor grammar.
I am not supporting this clerk one little bit. I say she should be assigned other duties that have nothing to do with marriage, or resign. She is an elected official and cannot be fired anyway, apparently. Calling her “bitch” and making comments about her weight won’t win the electorate over. Scorn for the vanquished isn’t smart politics.
As for narrow SCOTUS decision, if they had ruled against same sex marriage (which they were only 1 vote away from doing), I wonder whether you’d be calling for her to be fired if she DID issue a same sex marriage licence, as actually happened to clerks in other states prior to the SCOTUS when they issued same sex marriage licences.
All these storms in a teacup will eventually sort themselves out, but it will take a lot longer if we have hotheaded savage commentary such as yours, against individuals the likes of what I have had the misfortune to read in this thread.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: Your argument is an awful one and it wasn’t an analogy. You have no knowledge of how the system works and you clearly have no respect for the branches of government. And by bringing up Hitler you basically invalidated your entire argument.
This county clerk is required to follow the law as probably prescribed by any possible Supreme Court rulings. As the Judicial branch is part of government, she knew she had an obligation to follow what they say or face contempt of court. She is not fulfilling her job. It is obvious you have such a keen disrespect of th we Supreme Court. This republic was built on a respect of all three branches of government, so if a public official cannot recognize that they will face the consequences.
And now you are talking about conscientious objectors? Give me a break. You are just making excuses. If there is someone who has piss poor reading comprehension here it is you. And since you want to attack me on that level, you need to go back to school and learn how to write basic grammar.
Giancarlo85
@tricky ricky: I have a feeling he is one of those types who think public officials can object to performing their abilities because of some moral standing. It is obvious Derek has never worked a government job. You take an oath to follow the law. If you break that oath, you must be fired. She is under an obligation to give out civil secular marriage licenses to same sex couples.
This isn’t an option. It is an obligation under the law. Now that idiot Derek will just attack your reading comprehension. Libertarians often do that when their argument comes under attack and scrutiny.
His argument isn’t just wrong, it is vile, contradictory and stupid. He fears that if this lady is fired she will make millions. I do not care. If she violates her public duty, she is fucking done and should be fired immediately or face contempt.
Realitycheck
@Derek Williams: She cannot be fired but she can be held in content of court and arrested, as she should be,
she doesn’t get to choose what part of the law and USA constitution she
upholds, there is also such a thing as removal from office.
And she should definitely NOT be assigned to another job, she is not capable of
working for and with the public.
Her latest appeal will go nowhere and she will be removed from office and then
it will be open hunt season, as in law suits against her for damages and reparations.
Derek Williams
@Realitycheck: You forget we’re a minority. Keep on alienating the public and see if they will vote in a gay friendly clerk. I know “it’s the law” but laws only work when the majority support them and obey them.
Realitycheck
Write and call to this kunt, tell her what you think of her religious believes and bigotry
[email protected]
Phone – (606) 784-5212
Fax – (606) 784-2923
Contact Information
Rowan County Clerk
Kim Davis
[email protected]
600 West Main Street Room 102
Morehead, KY 40351
Phone – (606) 784-5212
Fax – (606) 784-2923
Hours:
8:00 – 4:00 Monday – Thursday
8:00 – 6:00 Friday
9:00 – 12:00 Last Saturday of the Month
Realitycheck
Good news Kim Davis, Rowan County, Ky. Clerk, is already been taken to court to pay for damages……
I hope she has a home and she looses it.
Realitycheck
@Derek Williams:
That is completely false, USA law works all the time, it has nothing to do with minority vs majority, if anything it has more to do with financial resources.
A law suit in time will prevail and this woman is alerting facing few,
and already feeling the financial pinch.
She is now suing the state governor do you truly believe the governor will take this lying down?
The governor credibility as well as the law of the land is at stake, she will loose in court and she will have to pay for all of her legal bills and soon or later she will be forced out of office.
If anything her punishment will be a great example for all other bigoted christians trying to do the same.
Derek Williams
@Realitycheck: USA law works because the majority support the law. It is the majority who elect their representatives to pass those laws. If after a period of time, only a minority support a particular law, such as the old laws against same sex relationships, then that means only a minority of law enforcers support it, and that includes police, courts, the public service and everyone else. The only reason we have gotten to where we are now, and only by a pipsqueak SCOTUS majority of 1 vote is through having won the hearts and minds over decades, if not centuries. We will always be a minority, so pissing off the people we just won over is the opposite of smart thinking. You only need to look at what is happening in Russia and its former possessions to see how easily the majority can rise up against us again. The Russian Orthodox Church is sponsoring a referendum to recriminalise same sex relationships in that country in the next federal elections, and with over 80% support, it looks almost certain to be carried. THAT will be “the law” too.
Hearts and minds are not won by trampling all over people and their beliefs, even if those beliefs are ridiculous and hypocritically applied as in this case. Just because someone’s religion doesn’t include you, doesn’t mean they’re not just as entitled to fair treatment, or to be dealt with courteously. All this name calling is counterproductive.
Compare:
“Please open this door.”
with
“Open the door NOW, you bigoted fat bitch!”
I don’t need to tell you which of the two is likely to get results faster.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: “Instead of skim reading and fusing what you want to read into what I actually wrote, kindly learn reading for comprehension, Google “analogy”, and then once you have mastered the art of reading for comprehenseion and understood analogy, read the whole thread through from top to bottom and then quote back to my where I did any such thing.”
This is one major run-on sentence with several spelling errors. Learn how to structure a sentence. You overused commas and didn’t use enough periods.
You don’t quite grasp what a county clerk does. Are you from America or from a different country? I am from a different country, but seem to have a stronger grasp of the law. County clerks are under legal obligation to perform duties prescribed to them and are also under legal obligation to follow the law. The Supreme Court decision stands as paramount and vital. The Supremacy clause also shows the clerk has no option in the matter. She should either follow the letter of the law or face sanctions.
The Supreme Court wasn’t going to rule against Same Sex Marriage. If anything, the decision could have been even more in favor of same sex marriage if Roberts didn’t lose his nuts. There was no way Kennedy would have ruled against same sex marriage. He knew he kicked the ball too far and too much was already done to backtrack. You can leave in “WHAT IF” land all you want, but this is what stands as legal precedent.
My “hothead savage commentary” is definite and factual. I do not live in fantasy world like you and I do not wish to appease to certain people who “object” to their legal and civic obligations.
@Derek Williams: Wrong again. The legal system isn’t about “the majority supporting the law”. Many laws were tossed out (such as interracial marriage) even when a majority supported the law. The Warren court was famous for being decades ahead of its time and far ahead of public opinion. Your opinions on the Supreme Court are revisionist and preposterous, like most of everything else you have said. You are about as reasonable and logical as Donald Trump. Everything you say is preposterous and absolutely inane. So that “pipsqueak” majority has nothing to do with what you have said. If anything, it was never going to be anything less than 5-4.
This has nothing to do with the Third Reich or Russia. Your blatant disrespect of one of the three branches of government in this country is obvious. You are oblivious to the reality. Russia is a backwards country with extremely weak institutions and an extremely powerful executive. It is hardly an example you can bring up and compare to anything going on here.
Nobody is trampling over people or their beliefs. Public officials, however, have a legal and civic obligation to follow the law as prescribed by one of the key institutions in this republic. If they cannot follow through with those obligations, they should either resign or face legal sanctions. We are discussing a civil and legal institution (marriage), not a religious one. Their religious views are immaterial and if they give out a same sex marriage license it doesn’t mean they are endorsing same sex marriage. This is why your entire argument is silly, ridiculous and preposterous.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85: If you re-read your own posts, you will find comparable typographical errors, including capitalisation, syntactical and punctuation errors. Maybe your own education didn’t cover these, but I don’t hold that against you, since you are still getting your point across.
A typo is not a spelling error, because it isn’t the result of the person making it not knowing how to spell the word, nor is my commentary full of “grammar errors”. I am familiar with common grammar and I know perfectly well how to spell ‘comprehension’ as you can readily see from the the first spelling of ‘comprehension’ that the second spelling is merely a typo. There is likewise a comma after the first instance of ‘comprehension’ that should have been a full stop – again a typo caused by typing in haste and not proof reading before hitting the Post Comment button. Queerty’s primitive commenting system doesn’t permit editing posts.
All that said, there is a world of difference between reading for comprehension, which you seem incapable of doing, and my missing a full stop. Such nitpicking minutiae subtracts not one iota from the main thrust of my argument, which is that you skim read what I wrote and then followed your misunderstanding up with a pack of lies, including that I never worked a government job. I worked a government job for 33 years. Lie number two: “you have no respect for the branches of government”. There is no evidence to support this contention. Lie number three: that I likened gay people to Hitler and the Third Reich.
Your inherent loud mouthed rudeness, extremist and abusive language underpinned by disproportionately incandescent anger remind me of the fact that we have fifth columnists like yourself undermining progress with your immoderate language and all-or-nothing approach that alienates the very people we are trying to get onside. Your appalling manner helps me to understand why so many straight people are still homophobic. Half the time I spend apologising for the likes of you. “We’re not all like that”. Faced with choleric invective like yours, I would slam the door in your face myself.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: You know what is counterproductive? Your ideas of how this country works. You are seeking to appease bigots by allowing them to use a public office to espouse their bigotry. We are talking about a public official.
I’ll say this one last time: She has no option in this matter, and she’ll either follow the law or face sanctions. If she cannot perform her job (which includes same sex marriage licenses), she should resign, be removed or be fined/jailed.
This has nothing to do with trampling on anything. If anything she is trampling on the integrity of her office and has tainted government. Your example of Russia basically backfired on you. Russia’s institutions are highly tainted and corrupted.
You have it all wrong… in fact, I would say you are completely wrong in every aspect. Nothing you say is correct and your comparisons are complete logical fallacies that have nothing to do with this argument.
Giancarlo85
@Giancarlo85: Correction: You can live in “WHAT IF” land all you want, but this is what stands as legal precedent.
I’ll add one more thing… please don’t come in here and try to think you know everything about the US legal system. You obviously don’t know anything. This isn’t a “majority rule” nation. That is why we have a Supreme Court.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: No. I make only a few errors and my grammar is solid. When I do spot an error, I do make a revision. The relatively few number of errors in my posts are nothing compared to your prolific and horrendous run-on sentences. Entire paragraphs of what you write make no sense and overuse commas.
You are incoherent and sloppy with the way you convey thoughts. I think you need a lesson in basic English. It is ironic that you try to lecture me, when your own writing needs a lot of work. Yes your commentary is full of grammatical errors.
“All that said, there is a world of difference between reading for comprehension, which you seem incapable of doing, and my missing a full stop. ”
This is yet another example of sloppy writing that doesn’t convey any real idea.
You need to put more effort in what you write because most of it is preposterous. Your arguments lack evidence and support. They also show a lack of understanding of how the system of government works. You have never worked in government and you clearly do not have an understanding of the oaths that public officials take. They are sworn to uphold and follow the law. This Clerk has chosen to disregard that oath and should face sanctions.
You clearly show utter disregard for the judicial branch of government. There were no lies in any of the claims I made regarding your inane and downright stupid arguments. You brought up the Third Reich and then you proceeded to bring up Russia. These two points are immaterial and considered red herrings on your part.
You are ridiculous, nasty and ignorant. Also here is a tip: Stop trying to look for big words in the thesaurus and focus more on sentence structure.
You are the one undermining progress and if it was left to you, everything would be reversed in fear of “trampling” on the rights of others. Some religious fanatics feel trampled on by our very existence. Maybe you should learn how to grasp this incredibly basic concept. You are the one that is appalling and you disgust me to the core. I never imagined we have such stupid loudmouths like you in our community, but apparently we do. Please have fun living in the closet the rest of your life in fear of what others think. I am not going to appease others because they feel threatened.
Maybe you should apologize for yourself to others. You are nothing more than a cancer to the entire community and it would be better if you extricate yourself from our cause. You do far more damage to the community, especially to younger people.
The cause is “all or nothing”, because there is no such thing as having “half rights” in this republic. Maybe you should learn some basic history. The Civil Rights movement was “all or nothing”. There was not going to be compromise. Lyndon Baines Johnson made it very clear when his administration pushed the Civil Rights Act. He was not going to negotiate with anyone who was opposed and withstood any attempt by segregationists to prevent the passage of the bill.
So keep your shitty grammar, piss poor arguments and general rudeness to yourself. I’m sure the community would slam the door so hard in your face because your self hatred is not worth anyones time.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85: Phantasmical delusion, straw man mendacity and ad hominem fallacy from start to finish. Unworthy of response.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: As expected, you were overpowered by logic and reason, therefore you are incapable of responding. Take your exaggerated claims and ego somewhere else. Evidently your ego doesn’t match your face. You are indeed an ugly person… both physically and emotionally.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85: It is a waste of time typing for hours on end to someone who doesn’t read properly, who cannot moderate his tone to the level of reasonable discussion, and who puts words in other people’s mouths. My perceived facial ugliness is completely irrelevant to LGBT rights. Your spurious quest for whatever equality you’re after may be limited to the buffed and the beautiful, but others have higher ideals than you.
Your flailing antipathy is unworthy of response. Refusing to continue engaging with you isn’t to acknowledge the truth of any of your provably false claims about me, it is to declare that you are an unworthy opponent.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: You simply cannot come up with a proper and backed up argument. You are the one suffering from reading comprehension problems. You are the one with a nasty tone and disposition. Most of us aren’t going to let the transgressions of this public official to slide. Maybe you should accept that basic concept.
Higher ideals than me? Hardly! I have the highest ideals of equality in society. That is why I’m a leftist. You are the one who accepts bullying and bigotry, because you’re afraid you might “trample” on someones beliefs. At the end of the day, religious bigotry will lose out. Marriage is a civil institution, not a religious one. Religious beliefs are immaterial.
You are done, as expected. You have failed in your argument and you are the one that is an unworthy opponent as you are not capable in backing up your claims.
Realitycheck
@Derek Williams:
Derek, exactly what minority are you talking about?
Depending on the polls, 58 to 60% of american supported gay marriage
and 9-10% didn’t care one way or the other, that is a majority vs that 30-31% against it.
I hope you are not one of those irritating people that argue against anything and anyone for the sake of it.
Gay marriage is a done deal and there is no going back, nor there is a Majority of public opinion against it,
if anything the majority of american supports it, and that majority has been growing for years, with no foreseeable
end to that growth.
But beyond that, by your logic a black girl in the south would have never gone to school
and we would still have segregation.
Times have changed and again there is no going back, this strange idea you have about
law and % support of is not factual in the least, if that was true nobody would get a fine.
That county Clerk will loose the appeal that is given, lower courts do not overrides
the supreme court and state laws do not hold against federal law, it is that simple.
No doubt she will be removed from office, she can only resist requests to step down for so long,
if she doesn’t this is exactly the kind of case that will make national news.
No one in the USA elected or not, takes on federal law and win.
Derek Williams
@Realitycheck: @Giancarlo85:
Keyboard warriors unworthy of response.
Realitycheck
@Giancarlo85:
>> Most of us aren’t going to let the transgressions of this public official to slide. >>ou’re afraid you might “trample” on someones beliefs.
>>At the end of the day, religious bigotry will lose out.
>>Marriage is a civil institution, not a religious one. Religious beliefs are >>immaterial.
Well said Giancarlo!!!! The usual false arguments in favor of religious believes always fails for a very simple reason, bigots believes impact negatively on other people lives, and there is NO such right, if anything it is an abusive behavior, and it should be criminalized.
By the way Derek and for the records, even the majority of christians (the real ones) supported gay marriage……..
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: LOL. Irony! You were the one that was typing up huge paragraphs under this article. Now that some of us came by and responded to your nonsense you back off.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85:
@Realitycheck:
When you respond with outrageous fabrications and childish misrepresentations of my position, and relate truth to the the lack of beauty in my physical appearance, it makes it impossible to conduct a reasonable conversation.
Your contributions are unworthy of engagement.
Realitycheck
@Derek Williams: Grow up Derek!
All you have to do, is to read the many articles on the subject, the consensus is unanimous.
That Clerk law suit will not hold a candle in court, and her state Governor (not in favor of gay marriage) has aggressively and publicly denounced her unprofessional behavior for violating her oath of office.
Beside what are you defending? Your ego? Or the anti gay establishment ?
Gay Marriage is now legal end of discussion, this situation is simply dust settling down and will soon and permanently end.
Most EU countries already have it and the remaining ones will soon,
are we supposed to care about few bigots in midwest or about some uneducated Russian A-hole?
Derek Williams
@Realitycheck:
@Giancarlo85:
Your responses are straw man extrapolations that are so disconnected from what I actually wrote that it is impossible to conduct a reasonable conversation with either of you. I never said, nor do I believe practically any of the ridiculous things you attribute to me. You accuse me of supporting the county clerk, when I do not, you accuse me of likening gays to Hitler and the Third Reich, which I did not, you accuse me of never having worked for the government, when I worked for the government for 33 years (school teaching while doing all the other things you quoted from my CV in my evening hours), you accuse me of supporting religious belief over law when I do not, you make factually incorrect statements about law and majorities and the systems of governance, and faced with such a wall of nonsense, I choose to resign from this thread (and from subscriptions to Queerty).
If your ego demands that “you win and I lose”, so be it. My “losing” to you means nothing, because you have proven yourselves to be unworthy opponents.
Realitycheck
@Derek Williams: I made no fabrications only answered your un-logical statements about majority and laws, never hear of such a thing in the USA, it is laughable, but I have heard of federal agents protecting and allowing a black child to school in spite of a retrograde state efforts to hold back the end of segregation.
Sounds familiar?
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: Everything I have posted is based on succinct and honest observations of what you have posted. Your position is preposterous. Your attitude is more ugly than your physical appearance.
You are trying to defend anti-gay people and I will not let that slide. We are talking about a public official that has clearly disregarded the law that she was sworn to uphold and protect.
And yes, realitycheck is correct. The Governor of the State of Kentucky has denounced this Clerk and said she needs to follow the law. And he isn’t in favor of same sex marriage. He is also a republican. He just sees the writing on the wall.
http://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2015/07/09/kentucky-gov-defiant-clerk-license-same-sex-marriages-or-resig
He made this statement to a different county clerk who also refused to do his job.
Giancarlo85
@Realitycheck: The Warren court didn’t care for “majority opinion” and issued countless decisions that went up against majority opinion.
Derek thinks this country is under mob rule. This is a republic with a system of checks and balances. That system protects minorities.
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams: You sir, again, are a fucking LIAR!! You worked in government for 33 YEARS!! Here’s you biography from your webpage…are you 150 years old:
Biography – Career Highlights
Introduction | Education | Career Narrative | Curriculum Vitae
” I am passionate about the creation and performance of music, both self-composed and composed by others, with a substantial publication list of arrangements and compositions in a variety of fields including music for theatre, film and television. I am committed to achieving excellence in both live and recorded music.”
2014
Commissioned by The Orchestra of the Canongait (Conductor: Robert Dick) to compose full scale Symphony in 4 movements
Commissioned by Sick Kids Friends Foundation to compose music score for their documentary video
Part time lecturer at The University of Edinburgh in Composition and postgraduate Orchestration
2013
Composer of one act opera, Medea for Edinburgh Festival Fringe, premiered at Edinburgh Jazz Bar
Commissioned by Edinburgh University & Royal Conservatoire of Scotland to compose Waltz for Edinburgh Festival Fringe ballet, Colours
2012
Commissioned by Edinburgh University to compose String Quartet for Professor Raymond Monelle Memorial Conference
Arranger, orchestrator – Caroline O’Connor official opening of Hamer Hall, Melbourne, Australia
2011
Commissioned by Artisan Trio (Edinburgh) to compose Quintet for Piano, Violin, Cello, Clarinet and Horn, funded by Edinburgh University Roberts Fund
Commissioned by Seiras Piano Quintet to compose a new quintet for performance in Rome at the Sala Accademica di Santa Cecilia
Commissioned by Glenn Wood Tap to compose music for complete adult syllabus
2007-2010
Commissioned to score arrangement for Caroline O’Connor for performance at The Showgirl Within, Garrick Theatre, London
Première performance of Fortune & Men’s Eyes for Piano, String Quartet, Clarinet & Bass at Kings Place Theatre, London, recorded by BBC for broadcast
Composing a full-scale opera, Wilde, scenes from which have been workshopped at The University of Edinburgh by the professional touring opera company, Opera Circus, and selected scenes independently recorded at the university
Pianist, arranger and big band musical director for Sinatra interpreter Frank Holden’s live and recorded performances
2009
Record producer and participant composer for the recording of an Edinburgh University funded CD Encounters of string quartets with guest soloists featuring PhD student compositions performed by The Edinburgh Quartet and guests
2007-09
String Quartet Caledonian Quartet premiered by The Edinburgh Quartet, and included in a CD of student compositions for commercial release supported by Edinburgh University Roberts Fund; published by Europa Edition
2008
Répétiteur for Edinburgh Grand Opera’s semi-professional production of Gounod’s Faust at the Edinburgh Festival Theatre and offstage conductor for the live performances
Répétiteur for the inaugural season of Opera Shorts at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival
2007
Scoring a large scale arrangement for Caroline O’Connor for 650 voice choir and jazz orchestra performed at the Night of 1,000 Voices concert at the Royal Albert Hall
Musical director and conductor for the Edinburgh University Savoy Group’s revival of the musical Salad Days
1985-2010
Orchestrator, conductor, musical director and record producer for leading international figures including Sir Robert Helpmann, Sir Howard Morrison and English National Opera star Caroline O’Connor
Numerous orchestrations and compositions performed at diverse venues including the Sydney Opera House and the Royal Albert Hall as well as in many television documentaries, mini-series and films including the Oscar winning Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, Aria award nominee album Cash Landing for EMI Music and the platinum award winning Australian Broadcasting Corporation WWII jazz album Come in Spinner
1983-2001
Conducting studio orchestras performing my orchestrations for many film scores and commercial albums including the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra for the film Frauds starring Phil Collins
1985, 1995
Performing as pianist and keyboardist in live theatre including over 400 performances of Andrew Lloyd Webber’s show Cats at Sydney’s Theatre Royal, Australia, revived at Queens Theatre
1972-3
Winning the Professor Hollinrake Memorial Scholarship and Senior Scholarship for Best Student (First) at the Auckland University Conservatorium of Music
1972
World tour as chorister with the Auckland University Festival Choir conducted by Professor Peter Godfrey CBE
So, I’m guessing that you LIVE IN SCOTLAND HUH?
This bio is correct huh?
Your story about the 33 years in a government job is bullshit huh (no 33 year gap in your bio you idiot)? Don’t answer that…IT IS! AS ARE YOU!
So that’s 2 lies I’ve caught you in. In debate, you’d be thrown out by now mister.
I really don’t give a shit about your Phd, your Masters or whatever other piece of paper you have hanging on your wall. First of of all, that Phd is in music, music composition.
Lastly, you went to high school in New Zealand! You have no IDEA about anything to do with the United Stated Government or how it works. According to your bio, you spent all your time there “studying” or “working”, overseas so please don’t try to lecture ME who actually worked in that sector about how government works.
Btw, your run-on sentences and overuse of commas are VERY distracting and make it difficult to understand the point you are trying to make.
Giancarlo85
Wow. He never worked a government job a day in his life. What a complete and total LIAR. I never thought of going to the website he posted.
Maybe he is a 150 years old and served in the Harding administration j/k.
@Derek Williams: You lied about your credentials. You aren’t American, you have never worked for the US Government or any government for that matter. Your entire resume was posted on that website you have under your name.
“you accuse me of never having worked for the government, when I worked for the government for 33 years ”
If you worked for government for 33 years, you would have mentioned it in your resume. There is no way on earth you could do all of those activities/jobs related to music and also work for the US government at the same time.
You are a monumental liar.
Derek Williams
@Giancarlo85:
@youarekiddingme:
Quote me where I EVER said I “worked for the US government”.
I worked in education from 1979-1985 (7 years) in New Zealand and in Australia from 1986 through to 2006 (21 years) and in Scotland from 2006 to the present (10 years) totalling 38 years, with gaps in between when on secondment or on long service or other leave. In each of those jobs, my employer was the government, who are responsible for education.
All the other credits are things I did in my spare time. My resume DOES mention my work as an educator and it is downloadable from my website, with all the above dates clearly cited.
Again – learn to read and again, your rantings are unworthy of response.
Giancarlo85
Also to obtain a federal, state or local government job in the United States you need to have knowledge, experience AND education in governance, jurisprudence or public administration. I have both an B.A. and M.A. Degree in Political Science (focused on American government and international affairs), and I know for a fact any government job demands certain requirements.
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams:
To the end, he gives lies about his 33 years in “government”…Says he was teaching for 33 years…Always an answer. Hardly a “government” job? Such utter bullshit!
The DISGUSTING LIAR LEAVES the building!!!
Can I get a round of applause?????
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: You never worked for the government. Teaching does not give you insight into how government works. On top of that, this article is related to US DOMESTIC POLICY. You obviously don’t have the slightest understanding of how US government works. I can say that with my experience and education backing me up.
I respect teachers and educators, but you never worked for the US government in regards to public administration, infrastructure or with regards to civic institutions that serve the public on legal matters (such as what a County Clerk does in the United States).
You don’t know a DAMN thing about the US or how the system operates. And your knowledge of the legal system is downright laughable.
youarekiddingme
@Derek Williams:
ANOTHER LIE!!
What is that 3 now…at least?
You said you were…resigning from this thread and from subscription from Queerty…yet here you still are!!
LIAR, LIAR LIAR!!!
Derek Williams
@youarekiddingme:
@Giancarlo85:
@Realitycheck:
This is truly too childish for words. From your abundant use of capital letters, I conclude you must be shouters in real life too. My last two responses were necessary because of your further false accusations.
This is really disappointing to see what my years of activism have given birth to. You make it easier to understand there is so much hatred of gay people.
I am now giving you the last word, not because your ego demands it, and I am sure you will take it despite having nothing useful to say, but because it is a waste of time dealing with such counterproductive people, armed with nothing but spiteful mendacity and vitriol.
This IS my last response, and anyone with an interest can now read back up the thread to see what led to such a ridiculous playground of internecine banality.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: I don’t care. You did not work in a capacity of public administration in the United States, nor do you have background in the US government. And just because you were a music teacher doesn’t make you suddenly informed about issues regarding public administration.
Learn how to read. The jobs I’m talking about are ones that require education/experience (combination) in public administration, public policy or international affairs. I know this because I’m trying to get one of those jobs right now.
You don’t know anything about the US government, the US Supreme Court or how the branches of government balance each other out. You are simply a liar and you were caught in a major lie.
youarekiddingme
@Giancarlo85:
…And his “so-called” teaching jobs listed on his downloadable resume include a ton of “part time” positions as well…
His 30+ years of teaching is bullshit. Pumped up lies to make his resume look good for future employers and students.
Giancarlo85
@Derek Williams: …
What a shocker. He keeps responding even after saying he will leave. What abundant use of capital letters? You were called out in several lies. I also said you need to put down the thesaurus and work more on sentence structure.
You are doing more damage to the community than you can imagine. I’m glad not many like you exist because years of progress would be rolled back.
You are not an activist. Stop pretending to be one.
And that is your last response? Sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee… like I’ll believe that.
@youarekiddingme: Part time jobs are good to start off doing, but he’s been at it for years doing the same part time jobs. It seems like he never even held a full time position teaching. I know the type who exaggerate their resume. He probably had help from one of those websites.
youarekiddingme
@youarekiddingme:
Put your thesaurus away idiot!
scotshot
@Derek Williams: You repeatedly state (paraphrased) to shut up and sit down because we don’t want to get the other side angry with us and will never accept us.
Here’s some news:
They won’t. Ever.
Every advancement of gays in the USA has been accompanied by demonstrations and confrontations. Starting with the Mattachine Society in the 50s and 60s. Stone wall 1969. The fight against the APA. Gay Pride Parades. Act up in the 80s – how many more would be dead if they had’t stood up for our rights. I could go on.
Basic: We won’t sit down while others fight to deny our rights as American citizens.
The SCOTUS ruled on gay marriage. It’s over. But, we must be vigilant as these people won’t stop until they win.
Ms. Davis? She’s a gold plated bitch who deserves the title. She’s discriminating against a group of people and denying them their Civil Rights. Can you spell hate?
Oh yeah – You’re Trolling this site Flagged.
youarekiddingme
@scotshot:
Remember, the idiot’s from Scotland. He has nothing to worry about. All of the fights that you listed above mean
NOTHING to him! He is not from this country…those fights mean zero to him.
Realitycheck
@youarekiddingme:
Had I known he was not american I would not have bother to answer such a person, clearly he doesn’t understand how the USA legal system works.
Beside the more he writes the more he shows his real trollish colors and
egomaniacal personality.
Realitycheck
@Derek Williams: Derek your game is over,
go troll some where else, flagged.
Realitycheck
@scotshot: He (Derek) will not understand, if anything is made clear by his repetitively offensive responses….. the man is emotionally under developed and challenged, as such he is trapped inside his own ego and incapable of seeing anything else, but his own opinion………
scotshot
@Realitycheck: Thanks. It seems I’ve seen this guy here before and he was just another poster. I wonder if he’s over-medicated or under-medicated. He’s certainly from a different state than us.
ShaneedaQuit
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if a lesbian and gay man applied for a marriage license and beat them at their own game? It was never specified that a marriage had to be between a straight man and woman.
Bellamy
WHAT THE HECK IS EVERYONE’S PROBLEM HERE?!
The bitch is in violation of FEDERAL LAW. Any Citizen of the United States can place the violator(s) under Citizen’s Arrest! The people being denied their marriage license merely has to call the sheriff’s office, and when an officer arrives you inform him/her of the situation, then ask the clerk for the license in front of the officer, and when the clerk refuses, you say, “I hereby place you under Citizen’s Arrest for violation of Federal Law and a Supreme Court Order.” Then either you or the officer will read them their Rights (which they have ironically deprived from others), ands send the traitor to jail!
IT’S AS SIMPLE AS THAT, PEOPLE!!!!!
Giancarlo85
@scotshot: He thinks his thirty years of being a part time, on call music teacher makes him an expert in US jurisprudence. I am still laughing my ass off at that notion.
Daniel-Reader
Her staff members should sue her for forcing her religion upon them and causing them to break the law.
Daniel-Reader
Also, the couples should sue her on entirely separate grounds of using her religion to harm their lives – invoking an entirely different lawsuit of a government official forcing her religion upon their lives.
jaack
@Derek Williams: Hopefully a hospital has more than 1 doctor BUT a county has ONLY one CLERK, he/she may have as many deputies as they wanted but the County Clerk sets policy but NOT the LAW. All county clerks must abide by the law they SWORE an oath to uphold after being elected. Hopefully the people of Rowan won’t make the same mistake in the next election, and realize that County Clerk is a VOLUNTARY job, she was not drafted to serve.
All this religious mumbo jumbo cannot become the way government works. Otherwise, my Rastafarian friends are being denied their religious rights by denying access to marijuana, the SACRED HERB of their religion.
Jaack
Realitycheck
@scotshot: yes perhaps he is under medicated…. I really don’t understand people like that, when many people say
“wrong” and explain why, what is the point of keep on arguing ?
@Giancarlo85:
In his mind he is bigger then life, I suspect that is why is web site is so “grand” lol
Jaroslaw
@Derek Williams: I just had to respond in your defense, not that you need it, but I sure don’t want readers thinking that lack of response implies support for G & RC. I was on vacation so I didn’t see this until today – going back and forth with Giancarlo is a total waste of time. I won’t even elaborate as it is plain to see on how he responds to things you didn’t even say. Realitycheck I usually agree with, have no idea why he is so combative on this topic. You made a great point historically – the tide can turn very easily as we Gay people are a minority. Prior to the Nazi’s Germany was a Gay haven. We know what happened in the concentration camps afterwards. And whether you’re right or wrong on a particular subject, courtesy does go a long way. Don’t get too upset – the two or three people arguing with you here do NOT represent all Gay people, or the majority of readers; THANK GOD!
scotshot
@Jaroslaw: 60% of the American public supports gay rights and same sex marriage.
If gay Americans had kept their mouths shut and were polite we never would have had Stonewall. The ADA would not have declassified homosexuality as a mental illness. Millions more would have perished from HIV/AIDS if it weren’t for ACT UP who was greater at confrontational demonstrations. We would not have same sex marriage. We wouldn’t have non-discrimination acts in some states. We would have more people beaten up and murdered.
It’s okay, just sit in the corner and hope that nazi brandishing a cross doesn’t notice you and kill you. Me? I’ll go down swinging and don’t even think of getting in my (our) way.
Mr-DJ
Being a REAL Christian myself, I’m here to say that these “so-called” Christians (I prefer they be called KKKristians in order to distinguish between the two), seem to ignore MANY parts of the Bible up to and including “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s”. In other words, in your spiritual life do and give to God as your relationship with God calls for, and then SEPARATE from that, give to the government what your government requires (i.e. FOLLOW the LAW). And no that part about what God asks DOES NOT INCLUDE: Blocking others from their rights, interfering in THEIR lives, but DOES CALL FOR enhancing the lives of others, being kind and accommodating to them. So this Kim Davis and her ilk are breaking all of these Godly and Earthly laws. She will obviously be caught up in “The Rupture” but surely not “The Rapture”.
sdterp
I’l like to know who’s paying for Liberty Counsel’s services? If it’s tax payer money, that’s double crazy.
sdterp
Really, you can’t force someone to do her job? Fire her. Someone is willing to satisfy the requirements of the job.
sdterp
@Bob Craig: I appreciate your steadfast religious convictions, but you don’t have the power to force others to follow your understanding of Biblical doctrine. The Bible endorses many forms of marriage, but that’s a lecture for another day. The point is, marriage in the US is a civil institution. Civil marriage is the only marriage that is formally recognized. Religious marriage is optional but only valid as a supplement to the civil contract. Full stop.
Giancarlo85
@Jaroslaw: Oh look at what the cat dragged in. Another guy who exaggerates his own background and credentials, while not being able to construct a proper sentence. You just don’t get it. It’s 2015. Not 1920 Germany.
” Prior to the Nazi’s Germany was a Gay haven. We know what happened in the concentration camps afterwards. And whether you’re right or wrong on a particular subject, courtesy does go a long way.”
No it wasn’t. Germany was a conservative nation. And the fact that you’re bringing up Nazi Germany is breaking Godwin’s law. It’s an automatic fail. And you can’t show “courtesy” to people like this Clerk.
“Don’t get too upset – the two or three people arguing with you here do NOT represent all Gay people, or the majority of readers; THANK GOD!”
I’m sorry but you’re wrong on that one. You’re the one that doesn’t represent gay people. You are a right winger who likes to kiss ass. Most LGBTQQI people are not like that and demand their rights.
sdterp
@youarekiddingme: Ah, that was my question…Liberty counsel is being paid by taxpayer $$$…how fantastic is that. Do they use taxpayer $$$ to host week long Xian revivals too? I mean, why not? In for a penny, in for a pound.
sdterp
@youarekiddingme: Yes, because she clearly never refused a marriage license to anyone who was previously divorced (as she herself has been married/divorced multiple times) and that is akin to adultery per several Biblical verses. ..however, I agree we need to find a way to get her out of the way without launching her martyrdom. That’s a tricky wicket, for sure.
Giancarlo85
@scotshot: If people never stood up and demanded change there would no progress. We just need to look at history. Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther King… yes… these men proposed non-violence, but they also knew direct action had to take place.
Being polite is not an option.
youarekiddingme
@Jaroslaw:
You didn’t address me directly but I was the one who began the debate with this Derek character to begin with. I had respect for his opinions until he began putting words in my mouth. He repeatedly said that I wanted or supported that clerk being fired/spit on/ whatever which I never stated in my posts. His lies continued throughout his postings to me.
In debating his points with him, I always used direct quotes from him (cutting and posting his words) and responding directly to them.
I quoted directly from the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.
He, on the other hand would paraphrase and infer from statements and keep repeating fallacies even knowing that I previously disputed them (i.e., the wanting her fired issue).
He also “represented” himself as “working for the government” for 33 years, when in fact he was a part-time music teacher in Scotland for most of those 33 years. On top of that he isn’t even a US Citizen! Now, how is that representing yourself as an honest man? Lie by omission is still a lie…
In fact, if you check the sheer number of comments on this posting, you will see that HE was in the minority in this debate. His opinion did not represent those of most of the LGBT readers on this blog. So, as he did, I will “infer” that I did have the majority opinion of the readers (just count the postings for and against…duh)!
So, things eventually got a little heated with me as well. A man who does not have his word is no man. I have no patience for a LIAR!
Billysees
@scotshot:
” Every advancement of gays in the USA has been accompanied by demonstrations and confrontations. ”
” Basic: We won’t sit down while others fight to deny our rights as American citizens. The SCOTUS ruled on gay marriage. It’s over. But, we must be vigilant as these people won’t stop until they win. ”
Well said.