This week as Ireland begins offering same-sex marriage licenses for the first time, this story appeared today in the Irish Daily Mail, written by gay man Richard Waghorne. Arguing against the right of folks like Barry Dignam and Hugh Walsh to solidify their legal status? This should be fun!
I double-checked the date. Waghorne’s op-ed was not published April 1.
I have watched with growing irritation as principled opponents of gay marriage have put up with a stream of abuse for explaining their position. Public figures who try to do so routinely have to contend with the charge that they are bigoted or homophobic. When Fine Gael’s Lucinda Creighton confirmed her opposition to same-sex marriage during the general election campaign, there were calls for Enda Kenny to sack her. David Quinn of the pro-marriage Iona Institute is regularly abused in sometimes extraordinary terms for making similar arguments. They’re not the only ones. The reflex response from many gay marriage advocates is to paint all dissent as prejudice, as if the only reason for defending marriage as it has existed to date is some variety of bigotry or psychological imbalance.
Actually, gay people should defend the traditional understanding of marriage as strongly as everyone else. Given that it is being undermined in the name of gay people, with consequences for future generations, it is all the more important that gay people who are opposed to gay marriage speak up.
[…] I am conscious of this when considering my own circle of friends, quite a few of whom have recently married or will soon do so in the future. Many, if not most or all of them, will raise children. If, however, I or gay friends form civil partnerships, those are much more unlikely to involve raising children. So the question that matters is this: Why should a gay relationship be treated the same way as a marriage, despite this fundamental difference?
Now all of this may sound quite shocking, until you realize who Richard Waghorne actually is. The Irish native now lives in London and has been described as a “neocon iteration of an Irish commentator. He often fires for effect and then battens down his blog by offering no easy way for readers to comment. His zeal detracts from meaningful online conversation. His goal appears to gain the spotlight by playing to an audience that appears to be more American than Irish.”
Which explains his closing thought:
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
Although gay people and gay relationships have been rapidly becoming more visible, I would not be surprised if the case for gay marriage actually weakens in the future. Much of the support for gay marriage that exists today is instinctive, stemming from the fact that people do not want to be thought of as anti-gay. But that impulse itself only exists because we are still living in the shadow of the recent past. In the already foreseeable future, anti-gay attitudes as such will be all but unthinkable, in the way that actual homophobia already has a scarcely-threatening, almost antique quality to it.
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jason
As I’ve said before, gay people can be just as bigoted and narrow-minded as anybody else. There is nothing about being gay that confers on you a guaranteed special status of understanding, fairness or open-mindedness.
As for Waghorne’s assertion that gay marriages harm society, how is this the case? In what way does it harm people? I would have thought that gay marriage puts a moral column in a gay community that has often traded on the permissiveness ethos.
If anything, gay marriage is the salvation of the gay community, a get-out clause from the cesspool of the gay male social scene and its anonymous 10 minute stands.
The sane Francis
You have some nerve, Jason, to play the “some gays are bigots” card.
Anyway, the guy is a neo-con gay. There are many neo-con gays in this country that have the same exact beliefs as he does. They truly believe that marriage equality, and “gay culture” in general, are lesser to heterosexuality and don’t deserve full benefits, and are harmful to society. It’s sad to see people so battered and warped because of societal hatred but there is no excuse for this bullshit, which clearly is not based on anything factual.
jason
The sane Francis,
I don’t agree that you can lump all gay men in the same boat.
I think there are some gay men who, for various reasons, don’t believe in gay marriage. I know very liberal gay men who don’t believe in gay marriage. I know very conservative gay men who don’t believe in gay marriage. My point is that we need to put identity labels aside and look at the issue, and not the identity of the person who is making their identity an issue.
Point in case, Waghorne. His being gay is absolutely irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage. The merits – or otherwise – of his opposition to gay marriage must be assessed on the basis of his arguments, and not the fact that he happens to call himself gay.
Personally, I have never seen a logical argument against gay civil marriage being an option for those who wish to pursue that option.
Tallskin
Oh dear. You can’t escape the internalised homophobia you are brought up with, particularly if you’re also brought up with homophobic sky pixie beliefs, as are most Irish people.
Trendy lefty rag The Guardian regularly used to publish horribly homophobic pieces written by self-hating gay men. Ironic, eh? Ironic in that the Guardian in those days was the only newspaper on the ‘left’ and the only one that would publish anything about gays, and the only things it ever published about us was vilely homophobic.
But as emma goldman said: “Everyone participates in their own oppression.”
And Jason: yes, gays can be vile and horrid and as bigoted as everyone else. However, the big difference between us and the rest is that the oppression we’ve suffered has buckled and warped us as people. Not that that is any excuse, but it is something to bear in mind when contemplating why gay people can be vile.
But what is it with you christians and your dislike of casual promiscuous sex? I love casual promiscuous sex and want lots of it. I like loving relationships as well, but dirty, filthy casual sex is great.
TMikel
The solution is so simple, Richard. Don’t get married. However you have no right to make that decision for others. You must be filled with a great deal of self-loathing and self hatred. I suggest you get a copy of My Velvet Rage and read it.
Tallskin
I love this pic![img]http://www.coolcards.co.uk/acatalog/Kiss_Me_Kwik_Cards.html[/img]
Mike in Asheville, nee "in Brooklyn"
Says Jason (@No. 3): “I don’t agree that you can lump all gay men in the same boat.”
And yet Jason, you posted under the story about 97 DJ Cee: “What irks me about the current young generation of blacks is that their culture is prone to a type of sleaze I haven’t seen before. It’s a combination of sexism and homophobia.”
By definition, all homophobes are bigots; all racists are bigots. Jason, you may not be a homophobic bigot, but you are a racist and, therefore, a bigot.
Eric
Isn’t this just a variation of Stockholm Syndrome?
alan brickman
People need to fight for gay rights..so they can avoid real jobs…
alan brickman
People need to fight for gay rights..so they can avoid real jobs…just like priests…
Pete
This guy must be a GOProudling.
robert in NYC
If he lived in America, he’d vote republican and probably join the Log Cabiners in supporting candidates who vote against our rights.
What I don’t get with these anti same-sex marriage haters, both gay and straight, is how exactly does same-sex civil marriage undermine straight marriage? Can they provide the documented evidence from the ten countries which have legalized it and the five U.S. states? We need the evidence and the statistics from every government and state government where we are allowed to marry to prove their point.
If they’re using the religious procreation mantra, that doesn’t work any more because if they’re going to use that as the rationale to ban us from marrying, then they’ll have to ban straights who can’t or choose not to procreate. Civil marriage isn’t an biblical invention and nor do religious cults own it.
gregger
There is a difference between being; a Gay Man, a Homosexual Identified Man, and a Homophobic Faggot.
Gay Men live open lives a Gay Lifestyle,
Homosexual Identified Men don’t live the lifestyle and might have sex,
Homophobic Faggots hate the gay lifestyle and everything tied to it including themselves. usually the product of either a repressive religious upbringing, ignorance, or stupidity. For examples see Roy Cohn, Ted Haggard, Terry Dolan, “Bishop” Eddie Long, and many other political and religious figures of authority.
The sane Francis
The difference, Jason, between liberal gays and conservative gays who may agree on gay marriage is pretty simple:
Liberal gays aren’t saying “I disagree with gay marriage” on the basis of homosexuality being immoral. Rather, they believe that either marriage is not a valid institution, or they want their own institution and let marriage be for the religious heteros, since they want it so bad, sort of like they have tainted it, so they want to do their own thing instead and make something of their own.
Conservative gays against gay marriage are so generally because they think marriage is ONLY for religious heterosexuals, than homosexuality is beneath heterosexuality, and most of them live/believe gays should live de-facto secretive lives out of the “spotlight” (whatever that means, but yeah). So, one is a philosophical belief, one is a moral belief. A lot of conserva-gays think homosexuality is immoral. And his sexuality is definitely something that warrants discussion as he’s essentially saying he’s not requiring and deserving of the rights heterosexuals already have. That is a mentality that needs to be questioned, and asked why he feels this way about himself.
kayla
@jason: Oh my Gosh, you actually have a brain capable of logic! Usually when I read your comments it’s full blown sexism and, or racism…But this time, at least with your second comment you hit the mark…I completely concur! Miracles do actually happen…You’ve actually strengthened my faith in humanity!!
ewe
Many gay people often speak for everyone just as stupidly as straight people. I see no controversy here just one ignorant tart telling everyone else that they should think the way he does. We are all too aware how exgays grovel for the acceptance of straight bible thumpers. Here is a gay guy attempting to score brownie points with the religious right. What else is new? This topic is not about equality.
ewe
I don’t drink soda. BAN ALL SODA!!! NOW.
Andrei
What can I say nice comments from all of you guys.
I do not agree with Richard Waghorne, in no way. Why the heck is he gay than? To not support his community just because the people around him think that is wise to do….
Or that he loves being deliverd up the back alley but not to agree with the gay community.
A friendly advise for Mr. Waghorne, go straight if you’re not willing to support your community or hang yourself from the first bridge, one less that does not support the gay community will have no affect on anyone!!!
robert in NYC
Jason, No. 3…. and many of those gay conservatives are found in the republican party, nothing new. I wonder if this idiot is being paid to shill for the religious right wing extremists?? They do that you know! I just hope this piece of trash doesn’t start any antics in the UK marriage equality campaign seeing that he lives there. This is clearly religious based and plays into the hand of the right wing religious nutters on both sides of the pond.
robert in NYC
Queerty has this wrong. There are NO same-sex marriage licenses being issued to Irish gay couples. Civil partnerships are not marriages and do not contain vows during the registration which is all it is, a registration of a couple entering into a civil partnership contract with the protection and recognition of the state which confers some of the rights of marriage,nothing more. It didn’t go as far as the British version either. Like the UK, I think it will eventualy lead to full civil marriage equality, a stepping stone if you like.
ewe
@robert in NYC: I agree and marriage equality will occur faster with one more explosive Catholic church molestation cover up.
Kurt
@jason: “Personally, I have never seen a logical argument against gay civil marriage being an option for those who wish to pursue that option.”
Jason, I think your comment is what worries many moderate-conservatives. What they hear from your comment is “Personally, I don’t have a clue as to what the essence of marriage is or really thing its anything except how an individual defines it. So if someone wants to do it, why not?”
FouFou
Q. How do you sink an Irish submarine?
A. You just and knock on one of the portholes
Dev
@Tallskin: Better example of irony: self-righteous gay commenter begins lecture on internalized homophobia with a stereotypical “Oh dear.”
Steve
He makes the claim that homosexuality undermines heterosexuality because it is less than heterosexuality. This implicity undermines his own homosexuality and any possible relationship he might have (doubtful). I say if he wants to ruin and hate his life, then let him. I just hope he knows how much harm he is doing to future generations of homosexuals who won’t have equal rights because he wants to be a big-mouth.
Jeffree
No one has been able to bring up a logically or statistically sound argument against marriage equality. If I get married to a man, it has no effect on the str8 married couple down the street.
People confuse religious and legal/tax recognition of marriage.
If someone wants to ensure the “sanctity” of marriage, let them try to outlaw adultery or divorce. Won’t happen of course because that would directly affect too many so called “religious people” who overlook what Jesus had to say about gettin’ yer freaque on with people outside your marriage….
SteveC
This is the Irish Daily Mail. It is owned by the London based Mail Group of Newspapers which publishes the Daily Mail in the UK. The Daily Mail is a high circulation, far-right newspaper which is the print equivalent of Fox News.
The Daily Mail supported Adolf Hitler in the 1930’s until shortly before Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939. It’s no coincidence that the Daily Mail is commonly referred to The Daily Heil in Britain.
SteveC
The Daily Mail is a notoriously homophobic newspaper which has a strong anti-equality agenda – they were in huge trouble 2 years ago when the British Mail published a column claiming that gay, Irish singer Stephen Gately died, while on holiday, aged 34 because he was gay (in fact it was natural causes). This prompted a record number of complaints.
The Mail will have actively sought a gay homophobe to write this piece on the day CP’s come into law.
That’s how the Daily Heil works.
DJ
I don’t care for gay marriage but I don’t think it’s fair to deny someone else their happiness. If two people want to get married, then let them get married.
Helen
I saw this paper (and the article that was headlined on the front page)this evening and thought – Richard Waghorne is a Twit.
So he’s gay. Does he speak for all gay people? Does anyone? He’s certainly got the patter of the Religious Right down to a tee, especially when it comes to ‘redefining marriage’.
As a heterosexual woman who, as of August 2011, will have been married for 25 years, I cannot see that the desire for the law to be applied equally to every citizen does in anyway ‘undermine traditional marriage’. No matter that tradition simply consists of something that occurs more than once; being a ‘tradition’ does not imply that whatever it consists of is beneficial in any way – at one time ‘droit de seigneur’ was a tradition. Was that a good thing? Marriage HAS changed over the years, from a property transaction to an expression of love and desire to share your life with one person. The determination and dedication to the cause of marriage equality only ENHANCES my belief and joy in my own marriage.
Every little boy and girl grows up with the understanding that marriage is a joyful thing. How sad and demoralising it must be when a young gay person realises that a segment of population is working actively to exclude them from what they had assumed would be a NATURAL RIGHT for a state-recognised marriage, for no other reason than ‘tradition’, or ‘the bible says’, or ‘the church says’ Sorry – although I DID marry in a church it WASN’T the church that issued me my marriage licence – the priest was only the recording registrar (after he performed the religious ceremony, which confers no legal rights to me). I have no more state rights within my religiously-performed marriage than any person who was married in a civil service within the Registry Office. At no time will anyone else’s marriage impinge upon my own rights.
Civil Partnership is not a substitute for marriage. It ia apartheid, plain and simple. I was married in the UK but my marriage was and is recognised in full, anywhere in the world. Katherine Gilligan and Ann Louise Zappone have a full and legal marriage in Canada as do Colin Farrell’s brother Eamon and his husband, and two of our friends who married in South Africa; their marriages are to be ‘downgraded’ to Civil Partnerships. If they have children, one of their parents will be a legal stranger to them, due to the lack of appropriate legislation. Where is the fairness in that?
Finally, why as a heterosexual woman am I so concerned about this issue? Because my full and equal legal male spouse of 25 years will be undergoing Gender Reallignment Surgery this summer to finally become the woman she has always been inside, the final step of something that has been a major part of our marriage for more than 20 years. We have survived through pain and grief and tears to acceptance that our love is still strong. If we were in the UK, we would then be forced to get divorced before she was eligible to change her birth cert! The Irish government has not as yet written the legislation for this country as required after Lydia Foy’s victory last summer.
…but, after all that I have written above, does ANYONE think that I am going to have MY MARRIAGE downgraded without a fight?!
lemon-lime
@Helen: Three cheers for Helen! You are an inspiration. Thank you for posting your account.
Oprah
Civil union is appropriate. Marriage? Hellooo! Do you want US to be under Gods wrath? Natural disasters will follow if we do unnatural things. Yes, a man and a man sex or a woman and a woman sex is a sin, but one can repent from it. Gay Marriage is a YES WE CAN collective society opinion, we cant have that.Look at Japan, the land of worshiping statues and budha- or candles- look at the earthquake and Tsunami upon them. Seriously, y’all! lol